Orca kills trainer at SeaWorld Orlando

[William Parcher]

Experienced trainer slipped, killed by whale attack at SeaWorld Orlando (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,942688.story)


Park guest Victoria Biniak told Local 6 that the trainer was a veteran of SeaWorld and had just finished explaining to the audience what they would see during the performance. At that point, Biniak said, the whale came up from the water and grabbed the woman. "He was thrashing her around pretty good. It was violent,'" Biniak told Local 6.

[William Parcher]

The whale's name has been revealed as Tillikum. This makes the third person killed by this whale.

[slingblade]

I can't understand why there was a second, much less a third.

[Fnord]

Never trust an animal.

[Bikewer]

Especially a 10,000 pound carnivore.....

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I don't like to be around animals that I can't beat in a fight.

[One Eyed Jack]

Why should anyone be surprised by this?

We take an orca out of its natural environment, stick it in a swimming pool, train it to dance for our amusement, and then act shocked when it does what it naturally does. A human in a wetsuit looks an awful lot like a seal.

I think it's rather silly to place wild animals in captivity and expect them to act like kittens.

[Retrograde]

There's a reason they're called Killer Whales - in the wild they hunt seals, and play with their prey much like domestic cats do. Not a good time for the seals.

[Howie Felterbush]

"...and like human beings, they have a profound instinct for...vengance!"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlQ4VrHa7fU

[roger]

Why should anyone be surprised by this?

We take an orca out of its natural environment, stick it in a swimming pool, train it to dance for our amusement, and then act shocked when it does what it naturally does. A human in a wetsuit looks an awful lot like a seal.

I think it's rather silly to place wild animals in captivity and expect them to act like kittens.
Actually, I think the real mistake was the frickin laser beams attached to their heads.

[Thunder]

hmmm...maybe Killer Whales should not be pets or circus acts?

just maybe?

[Hallo Alfie]

hmmm...maybe Killer Whales should not be pets or circus acts?

just maybe?

The only problem I've ever had with my pet orca, is finding big enough plastic bags to clean up after him whilst taking him for a walk. :)

[Howie Felterbush]

Mucking about in a pool with a giant animal that has "killer" in it's name seems a bit dumb to me. If it was called the Cuddling Whale or the Gentle Caress Whale it might be different, but "Killer"?

[Foolmewunz]

Strange quote from the Sentinel article in the OP - later reports say that the show had just ended and the audience had mostly gone but there were some lingering about and the trainer went over to interact with this particular orca.

I kind of agree with the suggestion that you don't get all cuddly with anything that has "killer" as part of its name, especially if you are just about the size of its natural dinner.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Never trust an animal.

Especially a 10,000 pound carnivore.....

...And you're wearing an outfit that makes you look vaguely like a sea lion.

(No, I'm not really blaming the victim, it's just standard-issue Schadenfreude kicking in.)

[Juniversal]

Well i'd say human beings are the most dangerous animals on this earth lol. But once we attempt to "tame" animals 10x our size occurences like are always going to happen (as unfortunate as it may be). This wasn't the first time and definately wont be the last.

[rockinkt]

The trainer was actually standing by the tank when the whale grabbed her around the waist and pulled her under - all the while shaking her violently.

[Skeptical Greg]

Witnesses who watched the attack while eating at the "Dine with Shamu" show — a poolside buffet where trainers demonstrate their connection with the animals — told the Sentinel a female trainer was petting a killer whale when it grabbed her and plunged into the water.

Good grief ....

[Sabrina]

The freaky part about this for me?

I was at Seaworld in Orlando in this past October, and I went to see the whale show while there. Afterwards I went down to the tank where one of the trainers was talking to some of the park guests and took a picture with her. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it was the girl that was killed.

[William Parcher]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think it was the girl that was killed.


Pictures of (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/orl-seaworld-trainer-dawn-brancheau,0,4297208.photogallery) Dawn Brancheau at SeaWorld Orlando.

Richard Ellis is an authority on cetaceans and has called the attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaH4yPMvXbE) "premeditated". What he means is that whatever was the orca's intent, it knew what it was doing - not an accident.

[Sabrina]

Pictures of (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/orl-seaworld-trainer-dawn-brancheau,0,4297208.photogallery) Dawn Brancheau at SeaWorld Orlando.

Richard Ellis is an authority on cetaceans and has called the attack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaH4yPMvXbE) "premeditated". What he means is that whatever was the orca's intent, it knew what it was doing - not an accident.

Um.

Yeah, now I'm almost positive it was her...

I'll post the picture I have when I get home... I mean, I can't be 100% certain until I compare those pictures with the girl I took a picture with, but they look very very similar.

[JcR]

Coverage from Anderson Cooper CNN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib1wT5lX0s8)

[dudalb]

Someone get Quint.......

[William Parcher]

He wouldn't let go of her. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100225/ap_on_re_us/us_seaworld_death;_ylt=AiikHcrS_5ANdPKJsRrHjfKs0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTNpcHM3NWUwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMjI1L3V zX3NlYXdvcmxkX2RlYXRoBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb 3MDMwRwb3MDMTMEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3R vcnkEc2xrA2F1dG9wc3l0cmFpbg--)


Officials say trainers had to coax an aggressive whale into a smaller pool and use a platform to lift it out of the water before they could free a colleague from its jaws...

The county sheriff's office says co-workers couldn't immediately help her because the whale was so aggressive after it grabbed her by her pony tail and pulled her in.

Grabbed her by the ponytail. Other reports have said by the waist.

[CORed]

I don't like to be around animals that I can't beat in a fight.

I have two cats and a ten pound terrier. I'm not sure I could beat the terrier or one of the cats in a fight (not without some kind of weapon anyway). Fortunately, I don't think either of these two animals has any idea that they might be able to beat me in a fight.

Orca's on the other hand, are big enough and smart enough to know they can beat a human in a fight.

[William Parcher]

The office says an investigation is continuing but there are no signs of foul play and all evidence indicates it was a tragic accident.


WTF are they talking about? No evidence that another trainer paid Tilly to kill her?

[William Parcher]

Seven minute video (http://www.wesh.com/video/22671481/index.html) taken by visitor immediately before the attack. The actual attack may be on video.

[ravdin]

I remember an episode of Blue Planet where a pod of killer whales harassed a grey whale mother and calf for hours until the calf finally collapsed from exhaustion. The killer whales then ate the calf's tongue and left the rest of the carcass.

Like people, some animals are jerks.

[Corsair 115]

Someone get Quint.......


No, Quint hunted sharks. You want Nolan.

[rockinkt]

No, Quint hunted sharks. You want Nolan.

Just make sure you get a bigger boat...;)

[rockinkt]

WTF are they talking about? No evidence that another trainer paid Tilly to kill her?

Maybe they meant "Fowl" play...the chickens didn't look guilty.

[Ziggurat]

I have two cats and a ten pound terrier. I'm not sure I could beat the terrier or one of the cats in a fight (not without some kind of weapon anyway).

Unless you're severely crippled, you could easily beat them in a fight, probably all three at once. What you're not willing to do is take the scratches you'd get in the process. It's only a lack of willingness to fight, not ability, that makes you think otherwise. Conversely, it's only a lack of willingness of large animals (horses, elephants, Orcas) to fight which ever makes it safe for us to be around them.

[CORed]

WTF are they talking about? No evidence that another trainer paid Tilly to kill her?

Here's the deal: Twenty pounds of extra fish tonight if you off her.

[CORed]

Unless you're severely crippled, you could easily beat them in a fight, probably all three at once. What you're not willing to do is take the scratches you'd get in the process. It's only a lack of willingness to fight, not ability, that makes you think otherwise. Conversely, it's only a lack of willingness of large animals (horses, elephants, Orcas) to fight which ever makes it safe for us to be around them.

You're probably right. It would not only be my reluctance to take damage, but my reluctance to inflict a lethal blow that would handicap me. All of the animals are small enough that I could kill or seriously inure them with a hard kick or stomp. I would not discount the possibility that the dog could inflict a lethal bite, though. She can easily jump high enough to reach my throat, though she's not big enough to knock me down, as a large dog could.

I have no doubt that most large dogs could defeat me, or most unarmed humans in an all out fight, though, and even small dogs have very strong jaws and can deliver a nasty bite.

[Arus808]

Im very torn on this. I was training to become a dolphin/whale trainer as that was my major. I worked at the local sea life park for several summers to gain experience.

I totally understand the danger in entrusting your life and safety with animals that can literally, break your back with just a simple nudge or misplaced push. Having been on the receiving end of a wayward flipper of a Sea Lion, the power that these animals posses are just amazing, and yet terrifying.


My sympathies go out to the trainer and her family; she loved what she did as evidenced by her 17 years of service working her way up to become a trainer for the Killer Whales she worked with. she knew what she wanted to be since her first visit to a seal life animal park.

However, as reported in several news outlets, the whales were "ornery" that day, and having trained several types of animals (dogs, cats, parrots, mccaws, etc), you never push an animal to do something IF they are not going to listen to you. Like a child, you have to let them be, put them in their "corner" and let them do what they need to do.

Many are calling for the animal to be "destroyed" > I disagree. This was simply an accident; culminating from mistakes on the trainers part for pushing an animal to do things it really didn't want to do.

[William Parcher]

Update (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,6076530.story) is saying that she was pulled by the ponytail, not waist - even initially pulled underwater by the hair. He must have then switched to grabbing her body causing the trauma. The earliest report I saw yesterday had witnesses seeing blood from her mouth while underwater (internal injury from massive bite?).

Attached is a frame grab from the video. It looks like she is laying on a submerged ledge (reports say knee-deep water) which allows him to get his face right up to her without coming way out of the water. Readers may have erroneously thought he launched himself out onto a dry perimeter area to grab her.

[William Parcher]

The Orange-Osceola Medical Examiner's Office conducted the autopsy this morning and concluded Brancheau died of traumatic injuries, but details about those injuries were not released.

The autopsy won't be final until toxicology tests are completed. It will take several weeks to get those results, according to a spokeswoman for the Medical Examiner's office.


I'm sorry I have to ask WTF again. Is this to see if the orca poisoned or drugged her? I thought foul play had already been ruled out.

[elgarak]

I'm sorry I have to ask WTF again. Is this to see if the orca poisoned or drugged her? I thought foul play had already been ruled out.To see if she was drugged or poisoned. For whatever reason. Maybe she took medication. In any case, it's standard procedure in all examinations of 'unnatural' deaths. Does not go as fast as depicted on CSI.

[INRM]

I can't imagine they'd be happy being confined and forced to perform for people's amusement, they are highly intelligent and sentient beings.

[Jungle Jim]

Many are calling for the animal to be "destroyed" > I disagree. This was simply an accident; culminating from mistakes on the trainers part for pushing an animal to do things it really didn't want to do.

Would you be OK with instead of having the animal put down, they did away with Killer Whale shows?

[dudalb]

No, Quint hunted sharks. You want Nolan.

You are right, but when it comes to Whales, I will go with Ahab......

[CORed]

I'm sorry I have to ask WTF again. Is this to see if the orca poisoned or drugged her? I thought foul play had already been ruled out.

I think it's standard procedure to do toxicology tests any time an autopsy is performed. In this case, I guess the only information to be gained is whether the trainer's judgment was impaired in any way from use of alcohol or drugs.

[ugot2bekidding]

Speaking of Killer Whales, check out this amazing video.

rBF9cDBUakA

[Morrigan]

Hah! I always laughed at the advertisement for Marineland (http://www.marinelandcanada.com/attractions/killer_whales/) where they talk about friendly! killer whales, because it was such an oxymoron.

[Ziggurat]

Speaking of Killer Whales, check out this amazing video.

You did the link wrong. You only need the bit after the '=' but before the '&'.

[ugot2bekidding]

You did the link wrong. You only need the bit after the '=' but before the '&'.

Thank you. Just curious, did that change recently? I never had a problem linking them before, maybe I just forgot how I had done them.

[UndercoverElephant]

Never trust an animal.



Which animal are you suggesting we should not trust?

The one which decided to do THIS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxQxyjSEzOk

Orcas do not belong in captivity.

[Hallo Alfie]

I remember an episode of Blue Planet where a pod of killer whales harassed a grey whale mother and calf for hours until the calf finally collapsed from exhaustion. The killer whales then ate the calf's tongue and left the rest of the carcass.

Like people, some animals are jerks.

I wonder what whale tongues taste like?

Maybe they meant "Fowl" play...the chickens didn't look guilty.

killer chickens?
Sounds like a bad plot for a sci-fi monster movie.

[slingblade]

Many are calling for the animal to be "destroyed" > I disagree. This was simply an accident; culminating from mistakes on the trainers part for pushing an animal to do things it really didn't want to do.

It's the three times that bothers me. Mind, I don't know what should be done, but I'm thinking an animal that's killed three people over time needs to be away from people. Period.

[Skeptical Greg]

Three strikes, you're out !


Seriously, I think it's cruel to keep Orcas in captivity ..

[elgarak]

Orcas do not belong in captivity.
Pray tell, which animals DO?

The thing is, animals ARE kept in captivity. Some of theme are easy to keep, some, like Orcas, are not.

However, quite often there is no other ethical (whatever that means) option than to continue to keep them in captivity, like for Orcas, who are nigh impossible to release, since they either lost the ability or never learned how to hunt, and are not being able to integrate into wild-living pods. And if you have to continue to keep them, you have to do it as suitable for them as possible. For Orcas, that means as large a pool as possible, and physical and mental exercise. Taking into account that one has to spend a lot of money for this, the SeaWorld approach (making them appear in shows, which provides the physical and mental exercise, and use the profits to build them a large pool) appears to be the most ethical. (Caveat: The big problem I see is runaway capitalism, with breeding programs to expand the population to expand the show which requires more pools ...)

However, they are large predators. Close interaction with humans will always be necessary, and accidents like this one will always be a possibility.

[bluesjnr]

It's easy to tell when to be careful.

I would never go anywhere near a "man eating tiger".

On the other hand I have actually sat RIGHT NEXT TO a "man eating soup".

Let that be a lesson to you all.

[elgarak]

It's the three times that bothers me. Mind, I don't know what should be done, but I'm thinking an animal that's killed three people over time needs to be away from people. Period.

Sigh. I would call it "involved in the death of three people".

The first was the trainer in the British Columbia Theme Park. Tillikum was living with two females at the time. Neither of the three animals had ever be trained to swim with humans. The trainer slipped, and was played and toyed with. Which is quite natural behavior for orcas. Tragically not suitable for humans.

The second was a 'civilian', sometimes described as a homeless guy, who slipped into the tank after hours. Seriously? You want to fault the orca for that?

And now this incident. Which appears similar to the first. There already were special rules for Tillikum. No one swam with him, ever. During the show (which I saw last year), he was always kept separate from other orcas. Not necessarily because he was aggressive. But because he is the largest orca in captivity, and was never trained the same way other orcas were before he came to SeaWorld Orlando.

As others have said, they do not belong in captivity. But now they are, and there's no other way how to deal with them.

[slingblade]

Like I said, it's like I said.

[Ziggurat]

It's easy to tell when to be careful.

I would never go anywhere near a "man eating tiger".

Indeed, dining on endangered animals is quite off-putting.

On the other hand I have actually sat RIGHT NEXT TO a "man eating soup".

Let that be a lesson to you all.

And the lesson is, learn the appropriate use of a hyphen.

My favorite example of an inappropriately missing hyphen is the movie "Eight Legged Freaks (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0271367/)". Could have been a moving tale about a band of deformed carnies who find strength in their friendship and shared struggle against social stigma, but apparently it's just about giant spiders.

[bluesjnr]

Like I said, it's like I said.

To be honest. I'm with Slingblade here with the added caveat of; if we accept that we can keep them as pets or for show or entertainment then we must place ourself as master. When and if they get to this number of human fatalities then it's time for the whale sized bolt gun, given that they cannot be released into the wild.

If you don't like it, don't pay money to see wild animals treated like domesticated pets.

[Sabrina]

They look like the same woman.

You be the judge; is this the same trainer?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brirose1978/306.jpg

[bluesjnr]

Indeed, dining on endangered animals is quite off-putting.



And the lesson is, learn the appropriate use of a hyphen.

My favorite example of an inappropriately missing hyphen is the movie "Eight Legged Freaks (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0271367/)". Could have been a moving tale about a band of deformed carnies who find strength in their friendship and shared struggle against social stigma, but apparently it's just about giant spiders.

Hey! You pull apart my joke to make the same joke yourself. Get-your-own-script-writer!

[William Parcher]

The trainer slipped, and was played and toyed with. Which is quite natural behavior for orcas. Tragically not suitable for humans.


Killing human beings is not natural behavior at all for wild orcas. Toying with them (holding in mouth) isn't natural either. Wild orcas seem no more inclined to make physical contact with a human than any other cetacean. Actually, there are a few other species that have a record of harming (including killing) humans in the wild - but not orcas. They really haven't shown themselves to be dangerous in the wild even when we get into the water right next to them.

I'm not sure if there is any account of wild orcas killing a human. From Wiki...

In the 1970s, a surfer in California was bitten, and in 2005 a boy in Alaska who was splashing in a region frequented by harbor seals was bumped by a killer whale that apparently misidentified him as prey.

[Skeptical Greg]

............

The second was a 'civilian', sometimes described as a homeless guy, who slipped into the tank after hours. Seriously? You want to fault the orca for that?
..I would like to be able verify the details on this.. I heard the guy died from hypothermia, and was found on the back of Tillikum ..

That would have been a neat trick; putting the guy on his back after he killed him.


Reporting that this whale directly caused the death of any of these people is irresponsible..

[Ziggurat]

To be honest. I'm with Slingblade here with the added caveat of; if we accept that we can keep them as pets or for show or entertainment then we must place ourself as master. When and if they get to this number of human fatalities then it's time for the whale sized bolt gun, given that they cannot be released into the wild.

Killing him isn't the only option. You could still keep him but limit direct interaction with trainers even more. While this trainer wasn't swimming with the whale, she was still effectively in the pool with the whale. So the risks with this whale can be further reduced significantly without killing it.

[Ziggurat]

Hey! You pull apart my joke to make the same joke yourself. Get-your-own-script-writer!

I'm-no fun-at all. :(

How about other plots for "Eight Legged Freaks": the heart-warming true story of the first paralympic 100 yard dash. Your turn.

[William Parcher]

They look like the same woman.

You be the judge; is this the same trainer?


Hmmm..... What happened to the mole/freckle on the right cheek?


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/26ccf136.jpg

[Ziggurat]

Hmmm..... What happened to the mole/freckle on the right cheek?

Could easily be masked by makeup in the other two pictures. Plus a lot of freckles get lighter or darker depending on sun exposure.

[Sabrina]

I mean, they look very similar, don't they? You can understand my confusion over this... it LOOKS like her... but I can't be 100% sure unless I ask someone who knew her, and I don't think I'd want to be that crass right now.

[elgarak]

Killing human beings is not natural behavior at all for wild orcas. Toying with them (holding in mouth) isn't natural either.

Toying and playing with smaller mammals such as seals appears to be quite normal for wild-living Orcas. Do you believe captive Orcas see humans in the water with them as something else?

Wild orcas seem no more inclined to make physical contact with a human than any other cetacean.

Yes. You know why?

(Do wild Orcas and humans commonly share their habitat?)
Actually, there are a few other species that have a record of harming (including killing) humans in the wild - but not orcas. They really haven't shown themselves to be dangerous in the wild even when we get into the water right next to them.

I'm not sure if there is any account of wild orcas killing a human. From Wiki...
How common ARE humans right next in the water to a wild Orca?

[Skeptical Greg]

Sabrina,
I think the girl in your pick looks a bit younger..

[William Parcher]

Dawn was 40, your lady looks younger. Earlobe mismatch? The teeth and mouth (at smile) may not match.

[slingblade]

Killing him isn't the only option. You could still keep him but limit direct interaction with trainers even more. While this trainer wasn't swimming with the whale, she was still effectively in the pool with the whale. So the risks with this whale can be further reduced significantly without killing it.

I'm thinking that's not a bad idea, although I don't know how practical it is, what other options there are, and so on.

And okay okay, "was involved in the deaths of." It seems to me the animal rather views people (even the ones who invade his space, uninvited) as...well, I hesitate say "chew toys," at the risk of being corrected again, but it's the idiom that seems to fit.

I'm projecting madly here, but it just seems the animal has it in mind that we're for throwing, and if given the chance, he'll do it again.

It's all just sad, all the way 'round.

[William Parcher]

Do you believe captive Orcas see humans in the water with them as something else?

Yeah, something other than food for sure.


Yes. You know why?

Again, they must not regard humans as food because they never eat us when given the opportunity (in wild or captivity).

(Do wild Orcas and humans commonly share their habitat?)

How common ARE humans right next in the water to a wild Orca?

It's not particularly common to have humans swimming with wild orcas, but it does occur. You can also imagine shipwrecks and overboard situations that would bring them together. No accounts of human deaths in the wild. Aboriginal peoples have lived amongst them for thousands of years (think kayaks) and they don't have stories of human killings.


Diving with orcas. (http://www.skin-diver.com/Features/Feature1/may01_orca.asp)

There is no record of an Orca in the wild wounding a person and only one case of a captive Orca causing a fatality.


Do Killer Whales ever eat people? (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070801061855AAdekNM)

[JcR]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8536000/8536184.stm

http://www.susanscott.net/OceanWatch2001/feb12-01.html

In 1977, an orca, with no warning, struck a racing boat off the coast of Brazil. The boat sank in 15 minutes, leaving some crew members in a life raft and some in the water.

The four or five orcas there did not attack either the swimmers or the raft, and all sailors survived. The collision with the boat was likely an accident on the whale's part.
I was trying to find more sources for this boat incident.

This is an event I think I remember seeing on CNN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IKV9R5mT6U&feature=player_embedded#).
Just interesting stuff.

[Sabrina]

Dawn was 40, your lady looks younger. Earlobe mismatch? The teeth and mouth (at smile) may not match.

Is that's true, that will be an IMMENSE relief, I assure you.

[One Eyed Jack]

I'm sorry I have to ask WTF again. Is this to see if the orca poisoned or drugged her? I thought foul play had already been ruled out.

A thorough autopsy always includes a toxicology screen when possible. You never assume anything.

[Hallo Alfie]

Hmmm..... What happened to the mole/freckle on the right cheek?

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/26ccf136.jpg

Is that's true, that will be an IMMENSE relief, I assure you.

I don't reckon it's her either for the reasons mentioned plus jaw line and face shape.

[fallout]

wouldnt the first kill suffice for drawing the ingenious conclusion that they need to stop this whale circus b.s.?

[The Fallen Serpent]

wouldnt the first kill suffice for drawing the ingenious conclusion that they need to stop this whale circus b.s.?

I suspect the people most at risk for death by orca are among the most vocal for continuing orca exhibitions. A single death or even a handful of rare deaths should not be the determining factor if a practice should be continued. I do not claim to know one way or another if the situation in general is ethical or demeaning. I cannot assert with certainty where the level should be but I completely disagree with any variation of "not even one death is acceptable." One death is acceptable. It is unfrotunate but it is acceptable. Three deaths tied to one orca is a problem that should be addressed. I lack the conviction that a single orca involved in a series of unfortunate events constitutes a strong case for banning the entire practice. This does not mean it should not be stopped, but it should be measured on different merits.

[Arus808]

It's the three times that bothers me. Mind, I don't know what should be done, but I'm thinking an animal that's killed three people over time needs to be away from people. Period.

the first time, it was a trainer during practice

the second, it was when a guy broke into the area he was housed in, and HE decided to jump and swim with the damn whale


the third, its a combination of mistakes on the trainers (they stated repeatedly and to the audience that the WHALE was not responding to directions and were being disobedient yet they still wanted to make the whale do 'tricks') and the whale just acting how it should.


Im sorry, but to me the answer is that the whale shouldn't be "put down" simply because the other two events were the subsequent mistakes and human error that lead to the deaths.

[slingblade]

the first time, it was a trainer during practice

the second, it was when a guy broke into the area he was housed in, and HE decided to jump and swim with the damn whale


the third, its a combination of mistakes on the trainers (they stated repeatedly and to the audience that the WHALE was not responding to directions and were being disobedient yet they still wanted to make the whale do 'tricks') and the whale just acting how it should.


Im sorry, but to me the answer is that the whale shouldn't be "put down" simply because the other two events were the subsequent mistakes and human error that lead to the deaths.

I never suggested it be put down. Not once. Not even obliquely. I very plainly said I don't know what the answer is.

I rather figured that's where we were going with this, but you are quite wrong if you think that's what I had in mind.

I said I think it's too dangerous to be around people anymore. That does not mean I want it dead.

Now, can we get off me? I don't want the animal killed. I can't say it any plainer than that.
Damn.

[Redtail]

No, Quint hunted sharks. You want Nolan.
You are right, but when it comes to Whales, I will go with Ahab......

Nah, you had it right the first time. Better stories, songs, plus he made his own hooch!

[rockinkt]

Grudge Match!

Paul Watson, the best Japanese harpooner, and Tillicum, all in the same pool. Fight to the finish.

I demand 10% of the gross revenue from TV. :D

[Soapy Sam]

Let's be honest. The potential danger is part of the draw. Nobody ever paid to see watch a llama tamer. No big game hunter ever stalked a cow, even if it is bigger than many tigers.
This animal will probably be a bigger asset to his owners than ever after this sad event.
I like orcas. I don't think they belong in ponds. I think they belong in the ocean.
That may be pure anthropomorphism, but I agree with Sling- it's not good for the animal to be around humans and it clearly is hazardous for humans to get too close to him. A separation would seem to be in order.

[slingblade]

Let's be honest. The potential danger is part of the draw. Nobody ever paid to see watch a llama tamer. No big game hunter ever stalked a cow, even if it is bigger than many tigers.
This animal will probably be a bigger asset to his owners than ever after this sad event.
I like orcas. I don't think they belong in ponds. I think they belong in the ocean.
That may be pure anthropomorphism, but I agree with Sling- it's not good for the animal to be around humans and it clearly is hazardous for humans to get too close to him. A separation would seem to be in order.

Have to agree, Sam. I doubt he can go back to the ocean, because he's been too domesticated, as has been mentioned. Maybe he can go into a kind of display tank? More on the education side, instead of the entertainment side?

I love watching the whales and dolphins, but yeah...we probably shouldn't be doing this to them. They do belong in the ocean, as you say.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm thinking that's not a bad idea, although I don't know how practical it is, what other options there are, and so on.Killing the animal? Are you serious?

This is a tragedy on many levels but putting down an Orca like one might put down avicious dog is not a reasonable option. There are tanks and the open ocean which don't involve interactions with human trainers. What a shame to blame this animal like one would blame a vicious dog. Did the Orca try to eat the dead trainer? There is an important distinction here.

[slingblade]

Killing the animal? Are you serious?

This is a tragedy on many levels but putting down an Orca like one might put down avicious dog is not a reasonable option. There are tanks and the open ocean which don't involve interactions with human trainers. What a shame to blame this animal like one would blame a vicious dog. Did the Orca try to eat the dead trainer? There is an important distinction here.

JESUS! Some of you just can't read!

Here's the post made by someone else:
Killing him isn't the only option. You could still keep him but limit direct interaction with trainers even more. While this trainer wasn't swimming with the whale, she was still effectively in the pool with the whale. So the risks with this whale can be further reduced significantly without killing it.

and I said:

I'm thinking that's not a bad idea, although I don't know how practical it is, what other options there are, and so on.

The highlighted part is what I was agreeing with! That it's probably not a bad idea to limit his contact with trainers, that he should be kept in a different tank, a viewing tank. Though I don't know how practical that is or what other options there are.

WHERE DID I EVER SAY HE SHOULD BE KILLED? SHOW ME!

Jeeze! GET OFF! This is really pissing me off to be yelled at because you didn't read it!

[GreNME]

Grudge Match!

Paul Watson, the best Japanese harpooner, and Tillicum, all in the same pool. Fight to the finish.

I demand 10% of the gross revenue from TV. :D

Holy crap I would donate to see this happen. Hell, throw several Japanese harpooners and most of Watson's crew, and let's make it interesting. Or maybe have a series of rounds to wear the whale down, culminating in Watson and the best Japanese harpooner as the "boss level" where the stakes are freedom.

[slingblade]

Holy crap I would donate to see this happen. Hell, throw several Japanese harpooners and most of Watson's crew, and let's make it interesting. Or maybe have a series of rounds to wear the whale down, culminating in Watson and the best Japanese harpooner as the "boss level" where the stakes are freedom.

Here you go Ginger, an actual target who is suggesting the orca be HUNTED FOR ENTERTAINMENT.

Jesus, and I'm the one who gets chewed out? Really?

[GreNME]

Don't point her at me. I didn't say put the harpooners in there with harpoons. That's not a level playing field. I think they should go in with boxing gloves. That have been soaked overnight in chum. Watson and crew should probably be marinated as well.

[slingblade]

Don't point her at me. I didn't say put the harpooners in there with harpoons. That's not a level playing field. I think they should go in with boxing gloves. That have been soaked overnight in chum. Watson and crew should probably be marinated as well.

Well, I gotta point her at someone! :p

[Foolmewunz]

Canadian Serial Killer Strikes Again In Florida - Will Probably Walk(Swim) Away From All Charges - Obama Does Nothing



This is clearly an immigration issue and if we would've elected Ron Paul we wouldn't be in this mess, I'll tell you. He'd have made sure these gangs of prowling immigrant orcas weren't murdering our wimmen.

What I'm concerned about is that no one tells us where the two gangsta b's from his Vancouver posse went. Vancouver SeaWorld closed down. They may have sent the girls down to San Diego, for all we know. They could be organizing other illegal swimming felons into a west coast gang (The Drips?), while Tilli incites the marine mammals in Central Florida.

If this government had any backbone, they'd ship 'em all back to Vancouver and make those fluffy tree huggers deal with their own murderers.

:spjimlad::spjimlad::spjimlad:

[Hallo Alfie]

Killing the animal? Are you serious?

This is a tragedy on many levels but putting down an Orca like one might put down avicious dog is not a reasonable option. There are tanks and the open ocean which don't involve interactions with human trainers. What a shame to blame this animal like one would blame a vicious dog. Did the Orca try to eat the dead trainer? There is an important distinction here.

I haven't seen a dog kill and eat a human yet. I don't think dogs attack because they are hungry. Like the poor animal of the OP, they have just had an unfortunate upbringing.

Well, I gotta point her at someone! :p

I'm ready. Put up your dukes Ginger. :)

[Foolmewunz]

The Orlando reaction - "Aww, heck, everything's fine" is just as unacceptable to me as "Snuff him!".

Everything's not fine with the current set-up. This animal needs to be removed from any possible contact with people - and by that I mean ANY POSSIBLE. If you've seen Nat'l Geo, you've seen them flopping their bodies up onto the beach to get to seals, and they are taught to do that at SeaWorld as a "cute behaviour"! Some poor unsuspecting schlub with a bucket of herring might be in a for a rough time in a year or so.

And that would appear to be the thing. "In a year or so..." This isn't the legend of the man-eating tiger that develops a taste for humans and so has to be put down. This critter has proved to be unruly and proved that he doesn't have a value system like ours (if at all). But it's not "habitual", as in attacking every day... the three events are spread over 19 years!

I see no indication that anyone in Orlando is even remotely considering putting the animal down. But, IF (and it's a huge if, so let's not throw me under the wheels of the life-saving juggernaut when you still have Sling to pick on, okay) they're talking about putting him down? Would it then be cruel to just let him go free and see whether he can learn hunting on his own? Maybe start taking him out and training him like they've done with cheetahs and other big cats? He might have a slight chance of survival, but a "slight chance" is surely better than a bolt to the brain.

[slingblade]

(and it's a huge if, so let's not throw me under the wheels of the life-saving juggernaut when you still have Sling to pick on, okay)

And to think, I offered to have your love-puppies. Well, I was going to...

[Foolmewunz]

And to think, I offered to have your love-puppies. Well, I was going to...

Well, I reckoned you had all those arrows sticking out of your torso, already.... :spjimlad:

[slingblade]

It's my outrageous fortune.

[UndercoverElephant]

Pray tell, which animals DO?


This one?

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v173/11/75/566312483/n566312483_530736_3278.jpg

[Skeptical Greg]

wouldnt the first kill suffice for drawing the ingenious conclusion that they need to stop this whale circus b.s.?There is no evidence this whale ' killed ' anyone ..

It appears three people died while trying to play with a 12,000 lb carnivore ...

[William Parcher]

There is no evidence this whale ' killed ' anyone ..

It appears three people died while trying to play with a 12,000 lb carnivore ...

Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-shamu-20100226,0,4599181.story)

In 1991, Tilikum was one of three killer whales that drowned a trainer at the now-closed Sealand of the Pacific aquarium near Victoria, British Columbia.

SeaWorld acquired Tilikum after another fatal incident. In 1991, Tilikum and two female killer whales dragged trainer Keltie Byrne underwater, drowning her in front of spectators at Sealand of the Pacific, a now-defunct aquarium in British Columbia, Canada.

Dragged Keltie underwater and drowned her. That isn't "killed"?


The show has been suspended since Wednesday, immediately after Tillikum, the 12,000-pound killer whale, had pulled veteran trainer (Dawn) Brancheau, 40, by her ponytail into his tank and killed her.

Orange County Sheriff's Office investigators on Thursday listed Brancheau's cause of death as "multiple traumatic injuries" and drowning.

Dragged Dawn off of a ledge and then underwater and drowned/trauma her. That isn't "killed"?

[Buckaroo]

This type of behavior seems to be common among not just orcas, but other species of toothed whales as well:

HNQEXLBvaMQ

Dolphins have been known to be very aggressive. A sperm whale sunk a whaling ship in 1820. Seems like we ought to just accept that these things will happen when we're dealing with these animals, and not act surprised when they do.

Elephants, tigers, orcas, platypuses... they're gonna draw blood every now and then.

[William Parcher]

This type of behavior seems to be common among not just orcas, but other species of toothed whales as well:

Wrong word. It's uncommon. I dare you to find an account of an orca killing or injuring a human in the wild.


Seems like we ought to just accept that these things will happen when we're dealing with these animals, and not act surprised when they do.

For orcas, the problems seem specific to captive animals. No wild orca has ever done what Tilikum did on Wednesday.

[Skeptical Greg]

Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-shamu-20100226,0,4599181.story)



Dragged Keltie underwater and drowned her. That isn't "killed"?

I've seen a different version that said they ' bumped ' her into the water.
Sounds to me like they were trying to play; just like they had been trained to do, and like they do with each other .
' Kill ' implies intent ..

Dragged Dawn off of a ledge and then underwater and drowned/trauma her. That isn't "killed"?


Again, there is no reason to believe he intended to kill her. Looks to me like he was trying to play, the way he had been encouraged to do all those years ...

edit:

The whales have no reason to believe their captors cannot bump and play under water ( for extended periods ), just like they do..

If they intended to kill these people, they would have torn them to shreds ..

[CORed]

I've seen a different version that said they ' bumped ' her into the water.
Sounds to me like they were trying to play; just like they had been trained to do, and like they do with each other .
' Kill ' implies intent ..




Again, there is no reason to believe he intended to kill her. Looks to me like he was trying to play, the way he had been encouraged to do all those years ...

edit:

The whales have no reason to believe their captors cannot bump and play under water ( for extended periods ), just like they do..

If they intended to kill these people, they would have torn them to shreds ..

WTF? I think she's dead. I only held her under for two or three minutes. Can't those weak little two-legged critters hold their breath for a few minutes?

[William Parcher]

I've seen a different version that said they ' bumped ' her into the water. Sounds to me like they were trying to play; just like they had been trained to do, and like they do with each other .


What a visitor saw happen underwater at SeaWorld...

"Came down with a person in his mouth was shaking her violently. A shoe flew off and the sirens immediately began going off and people were running everywhere," Biniak said.

Source (http://www.wesh.com/entertainment/22667184/detail.html)

[William Parcher]

I understand what you mean Greg. Killing usually implies intent and we can't really know what the orca is thinking. Maybe "caused death" is a better term. But then we'd need to change our terminology for a whole range of animal/human interactions. Mother bears have "killed" people who get near their cubs. But really, are they wanting to kill or only to neutralize the potential threat to their offspring? Holy crap. We can't say "killed" for anything other than an obvious predatory attack followed by consumption?


An account (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/whales/debate/trainers.html) of the death of Keltie Byrne...

On February 20, 1991, University of Victoria marine biology student and part-time trainer Keltie Byrne, 20, slipped and fell into the orca pool at Sealand of the Pacific. She had just finished a show with the three orcas. Since Sealand trainers stay out of the water, she was not wearing a wetsuit. One whale took her in its mouth and began dragging her around the pool, mostly underwater. A champion swimmer who had competed at the international level, she was no match for three huge orcas determined to keep her in the pool. At one point she reached the side and tried to climb out but, as horrified visitors watched from the sidelines, the whales pulled her screaming back into the pool.

"I just heard her scream my name," said trainer Karen McGee, 25, and then I saw she was in the pool with the whales. "I threw the life-ring out to her. She was trying to grab the ring, but the whale, basically, wouldn't let her. To them it was a play session, and she was in the water." McGee and other Sealand staff tried to distract the whales by throwing them fish, banging on the water with steel buckets and giving them hand and voice commands. Nothing worked. Byrne came up screaming one more time and then, as the whale swam round and round the pool with Byrne in its mouth, she finally drowned. It was several hours before her body could be recovered.

She had ten tooth marks on her body, the largest on her left thigh, but was otherwise untouched. The whales had stripped her clothes off. "It was just a tragic accident," Sealand manager Alejandro Bolz told newspaper reporters. "I just cannot explain it."

[Skeptical Greg]

WTF? I think she's dead. I only held her under for two or three minutes. Can't those weak little two-legged critters hold their breath for a few minutes?
Exactly !

[Skeptical Greg]

I understand what you mean Greg. Killing usually implies intent and we can't really know what the orca is thinking. Maybe "caused death" is a better term. But then we'd need to change our terminology for a whole range of animal/human interactions. Mother bears have "killed" people who get near their cubs. But really, are they wanting to kill or only to neutralize the potential threat to their offspring? Holy crap. We can't say "killed" for anything other than an obvious predatory attack followed by consumption?



I believe it's a misuse of the word ' kill ' and an intent to villainise this creature, when there is no reason to believe it intended to kill these people..



An account (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/whales/debate/trainers.html) of the death of Keltie Byrne...
From the perspectve of the Orcas:

On February 20, 1991, University of Victoria marine biology student and part-time trainer Keltie Byrne, 20, slipped and fell into the orca pool at Sealand of the Pacific.


Look! Keltie jumped in the water ! She wants to play, or she might be trying to make a move on our man ..

She had just finished a show with the three orcas. Since Sealand trainers stay out of the water, she was not wearing a wetsuit. One whale took her in its mouth and began dragging her around the pool, mostly underwater.

( Well gee, do you think they should have left the water and played with her there ? )

A champion swimmer who had competed at the international level, she was no match for three huge orcas determined to keep her in the pool.


(No Shish Kebabs ! )

At one point she reached the side and tried to climb out but, as horrified visitors watched from the sidelines, the whales pulled her screaming back into the pool.

Oh look ! She wants us to chase her !

"I just heard her scream my name," said trainer Karen McGee, 25, and then I saw she was in the pool with the whales. "I threw the life-ring out to her. She was trying to grab the ring, but the whale, basically, wouldn't let her. To them it was a play session, and she was in the water."

( Not a ' let's kill the human' , session .. )



McGee and other Sealand staff tried to distract the whales by throwing them fish, banging on the water with steel buckets and giving them hand and voice commands.

Hey they are rewarding us with food ! We must be doing this right !

Nothing worked. Byrne came up screaming one more time ...

Sounds like she's really having fun ! ( Orcas often mistake human screams for sounds of enjoyment .. They get rewarded when all those people in the stands do it ... )


...and then, as the whale swam round and round the pool with Byrne in its mouth, she finally drowned. It was several hours before her body could be recovered.

She must not want to play any more..:(

She had ten tooth marks on her body, the largest on her left thigh, but was otherwise untouched. The whales had stripped her clothes off.

Gee, nobody told the Orcas to remove their teeth when playing with those little whales with the loose skin and deformed fins..

"It was just a tragic accident," Sealand manager Alejandro Bolz told newspaper reporters. "I just cannot explain it."

Uhh, yes you can .. The trainer quoted above had no problem explaining it...


To them it was a play session, and she was in the water ..

[Buckaroo]

Wrong word. It's uncommon. I dare you to find an account of an orca killing or injuring a human in the wild.

As was pointed out by others earlier in the thread, it isn't at all clear that the orca was intentionally trying to harm the trainer. It was the behavior that led to the death that I was referring to, not the (possibly accidental) death itself. Similar behavior shown by a pilot whale in the video I linked to could easily have resulted in death. It was pure luck that it didn't.

For orcas, the problems seem specific to captive animals. No wild orca has ever done what Tilikum did on Wednesday.

Orcas specifically? No. Other species of toothed whale? Yes. There are numerous reports of injuries to humans from aggressive wild dolphins, and as seen above, a nearly fatal incident involving a pilot whale. That there are no documented accounts of attacks by orcas in the wild probably has more to do with frequency of contact than anything else.

[JcR]

Keiko like Tilikum was another two year old Orca captured near Iceland.
Keiko survived 5 years after being freed from the bathtubs he had been so accustomed to, before he finally passed from complications from pneumonia.
Though Keiko never did kick the human attachment to the curb... I wonder if a successful reintroduction to his pod (which is unclear if his pod was ever located) would have been the ticket for its final push away from human dependencies. Learning how to be an Orca; learned from others Orcas.
This reintroduced Orca may have never been accepted into any resident pods. A social outcast maybe an outcast of its own choosing... Well choosing to fall back onto us.
But in the end I feel Keiko had too many negatives against him from the beginning of the reinstatement; Underweight, weak immune system, too many seafood candy bars, and a respiratory system not accustomed to life in the ocean. ......If anything he did live to be 26 or 27. Seven years of freedom.

Maybe a life stuck in and near his baypen would have been best. I'm sure there was many interim success stories with it all, (and there was), and definitely a more educational experience than what the Seaworlds or Marinelands have to offer.

[varwoche]

Orcas specifically? No. Other species of toothed whale? Yes. There are numerous reports of injuries to humans from aggressive wild dolphins, and as seen above, a nearly fatal incident involving a pilot whale. Though it seems that most (all?) of the time the incidents are provoked by the person.

[I Ratant]

Canadian Serial Killer Strikes Again In Florida - Will Probably Walk(Swim) Away From All Charges - Obama Does Nothing
...


.
Oh happy day!
I've passe this on to the rightwingnuts that fill my mail box with Obamadidit crap!
:D

[I Ratant]

I believe it's a misuse of the word ' kill ' and an intent to villainise this creature, when there is no reason to believe it intended to kill these people..
...
.
Lemme see here...
I'm gonna count up the number of times I've wanted to jump in the water with anything larger than a rubber duckie...
Umm... zero!
Despite all the pleadings for the intention or lack thereof for this Killer Whale,
it is dangerous to people.
QED.
Therefore, send it off to the paradise where the smallpox virus resides.

[Skeptical Greg]

Do Orcas think human trainers want to play Orca games ?

Maybe those wet suits that look like Orcas have something to do with it ..

( Yes, dawn was wearing a similar suit when Tilikum decided to play .. )

[Skeptic Ginger]

JESUS! Some of you just can't read!

Here's the post made by someone else:


and I said:



The highlighted part is what I was agreeing with! That it's probably not a bad idea to limit his contact with trainers, that he should be kept in a different tank, a viewing tank. Though I don't know how practical that is or what other options there are.

WHERE DID I EVER SAY HE SHOULD BE KILLED? SHOW ME!

Jeeze! GET OFF! This is really pissing me off to be yelled at because you didn't read it!It happens when a pronoun is used. "That" could have referred to either comment of Zig's.

So, my apologies for misreading your comment, but you needn't have a cow over it.

[Pinkymcfatfat]

I think it's rather stupid to expect any apex predator to get 'friendly' with humans. 'Grizzly Man' thought he could hang out with bears. He got eaten. Roy Horn thought he could domesticate tigers and nearly died.

Killer Whales are also apex predators. Something tells me they might not like jumping through hoops and bouncing balls on their noses as much as trainers might think they do.

[Sabrina]

Do Orcas think human trainers want to play Orca games ?

Maybe those wet suits that look like Orcas have something to do with it ..

( Yes, dawn was wearing a similar suit when Tilikum decided to play .. )

As I understand it (I asked while I was visiting Seaworld last October) the trainers wear those colors because it makes them resemble whale calves. The whales are less likely to harm them, supposedly, as a result.

Maybe they want to rethink that notion now.

[William Parcher]

When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Having just watched today's Sea World press conference., I wanted to comment on the disgusting reaction of some in the media over this incident.

Unbelievable. One reporter was demanding to know if the police had been given the tapes of the incident. The police? It's an occupational death, not a murder. He went on about how reckless it was the public might be near the edge of the tank. The whale's been near people for more than 20 years. Are these people that afraid of animals?

Three deaths and the news media is making hay of it. CNN found the most vocal PETA-type person to scream and yell at Jack Hanna.

The three camps seem to be:
1) Kill the beast.
2) Free Willie and close every zoo in the world.
3) There's enough good with the bad in zoos and aquariums, these animals do OK in captivity if the conditions are right and this was an accident not an attack.

I'm in camp 3. I think we should work to improve zoos and aquariums, but they do contribute to animal conservation and education and every caged wild animal is not worse off than every uncaged wild animal.

Also, as far as this being an apparent accident as opposed to an attack, they've been reporting the whale grabbed the trainer's hair, one eyewitness interviewed said the whale thrashed/shook the trainer, and the death was reported to be "injuries" and drowning.

I think one likely scenario here is the woman's neck was broken in the first few minutes of the incident. It would be interesting to know just what injuries the Sea World official was referring to.

[Skeptical Greg]

As I understand it (I asked while I was visiting Seaworld last October) the trainers wear those colors because it makes them resemble whale calves. The whales are less likely to harm them, supposedly, as a result.

Maybe they want to rethink that notion now.


Yeah, dressing them up as seals would probably be more entertaining..


( Just kidding ...:boxedin: )

P.S. My Googling informs me, when Orcas are born, the light patches are orange.. Not sure how long they stay that way ..


When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

Probably not, but if they are grabbing a human when they think it is a baby whale, something might break before the weight difference kicks in ..

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think it's rather stupid to expect any apex predator to get 'friendly' with humans. 'Grizzly Man' thought he could hang out with bears. He got eaten. Roy Horn thought he could domesticate tigers and nearly died.

Killer Whales are also apex predators. Something tells me they might not like jumping through hoops and bouncing balls on their noses as much as trainers might think they do.I'm not so sure. Many species of whales and dolphins are known to play in the wild. Dolphins love to swim in boat wakes, for example, and this behavior is not related to finding food.

That doesn't mean these animals never experience anger and sadness along with pleasure.

We have no way of knowing what this animal was feeling or what the animal intended to do by the behavior or what the animal knew about the outcome of its actions.

[I Ratant]

...
3) There's enough good with the bad in zoos and aquariums, these animals do OK in captivity if the conditions are right and this was an accident not an attack.

I'm in camp 3. I think we should work to improve zoos and aquariums, but they do contribute to animal conservation and education and every caged wild animal is not worse off than every uncaged wild animal.

...
.
What would be the proper conditions for a large apex predator in confinement?
I kinda think no confinement is proper.
Those floppy dorsal fins on the Orcas aren't natural.
What causes those?
White sharks have the good sense to die in captivity.

[Sabrina]

When adult orcas play with small calves do they grab and shake violently?

Unlikely, but as I said, that's what they told me. Whether it's actually the case or not I couldn't say; I'm not an orca. :p

[William Parcher]

Also, as far as this being an apparent accident as opposed to an attack, they've been reporting the whale grabbed the trainer's hair, one eyewitness interviewed said the whale thrashed/shook the trainer, and the death was reported to be "injuries" and drowning.

I think one likely scenario here is the woman's neck was broken in the first few minutes of the incident. It would be interesting to know just what injuries the Sea World official was referring to.


Early eyewitness reports talked about her initially being seized by the waist. There were some witnesses above the water and some below (looking through u/w windows). Witnesses also did see blood coming from Dawn's mouth. My hunch is that Tilly pulled her in and then under by the hair - then switched to a biting grip at her waist. Massive internal injuries caused the blood from her mouth. Tilly never did let go of her. The trainers had to get him into a small side pool and jack him up with a mechanical lift out of the water to actually get access to her body. They pulled her from his mouth. She was already dead.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I haven't seen a dog kill and eat a human yet. I don't think dogs attack because they are hungry. Like the poor animal of the OP, they have just had an unfortunate upbringing.Sure they do. It's just that such circumstances are rare for dogs to be in. It's more often they kill humans or other animals as instinct (kill but not eat) or instinctual defense (the typical vicious attack by a dog).



I'm ready. Put up your dukes Ginger. :)I don't believe in solving problems with violence. It seems bizarre to me that adults would ever slug it out. ;)

[William Parcher]

Those floppy dorsal fins on the Orcas aren't natural. What causes those?


Floppy in the wild...

ETA: Even hooked is natural...

[Skeptic Ginger]

Early eyewitness reports talked about her initially being seized by the waist. There were some witnesses above the water and some below (looking through u/w windows). Witnesses also did see blood coming from Dawn's mouth. My hunch is that Tilly pulled her in and then under by the hair - then switched to a biting grip at her waist. Massive internal injuries caused the blood from her mouth. Tilly never did let go of her. The trainers had to get him into a small side pool and jack him up with a mechanical lift out of the water to actually get access to her body. They pulled her from his mouth. She was already dead.Where did you find this account? I'd be interested in reading/seeing it.

A lot of reports have been wrong. It's been clarified officially that she was initially grabbed by the hair, and the shaking was reported in an interview with a witness on the surface. I'm not sure which other accounts are accurate but these two seem to be.

[Pinkymcfatfat]

I'm not so sure. Many species of whales and dolphins are known to play in the wild. Dolphins love to swim in boat wakes, for example, and this behavior is not related to finding food.

That doesn't mean these animals never experience anger and sadness along with pleasure.

We have no way of knowing what this animal was feeling or what the animal intended to do by the behavior or what the animal knew about the outcome of its actions.

Yes, I'll agree that dolphins do seem quite friendly, and have even made 'friends' with sailors. Small Beluga and Narwhales aren't very dangerous either.

But none of them are apex predators, Killer Whales are. It's like thinking a wolf or crocodile would make a great pet, and then being shocked when it bit you one day. Some animals really just aren't meant for domestication (yes, I know wolves were domesticated WAAAAAAY back when, but it was a very long process, and I'm talking about taking a wolf from the wild and believing it could make a nice pet), they are meant to be hunting out in the wilds.

Killer Whales are beautiful creatures, and I can understand why water parks or zoos would want to keep them. The same with tigers, lions, bears...But, it shouldn't be a 'surprise' when one of these animals kills or maims a human. Captivity isn't going to erase that animals natural instincts.

[William Parcher]

Where did you find this account? I'd be interested in reading/seeing it.

A lot of reports have been wrong. It's been clarified officially that she was initially grabbed by the hair, and the shaking was reported in an interview with a witness on the surface. I'm not sure which other accounts are accurate but these two seem to be.


Yesterday afternoon all reports had her grabbed by the waist... then all were updated/corrected to grabbed by hair. I must have read 30 different articles with at least one commenting on the blood.

One witness said Dawn managed a breath when Tilly took her near the surface once (early), but afterwards she was kept under and out of sight.

I'll see what articles I can dig up.

[William Parcher]

Cached (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Y1XYF5UpjJ4J:www.orlandosentinel.co m/news/local/breakingnews/os-seaworld-orlando-shamu-injury-20100224,0,942688.story+Dawn+Brancheau+blood+mouth&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Witnesses told the Orlando Sentinel that one of the park's whales grabbed the trainer by the upper arm, disappeared underwater and swam to the other side of the tank. Tilikum thrashed her around in the water as he swam rapidly around in the whale pool.

Brancheau was bleeding from the face or mouth, they said, and the whale turned her over and over as it swam.

Possibly the most graphic from Time (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1968071,00.html)...


Tillikum did not just knock Dawn Brancheau over and drag her down to drown at the bottom of the pool. According to a source, he rose out of the water to snag Brancheau by her ponytail, yanking her into the water for two brief but shocking episodes in the pool. After grabbing her by her hair, he toyed with her underwater for two minutes as she struggled to use trainer signals to calm him down and get him to release her. He knocked her about and, according to some reports, had her by the waist, her blood spreading through the clear water, in full sight of members of the public that had been watching Tillikum with another trainer through a glass underwater window.

She was still alive at the end of the first takedown after Tillikum let her go. But he watched as she tried to get to safety and then grabbed her again and held her for another minute underwater, this time apparently killing her. He then settled at the bottom of the pool, keeping her in his mouth. She apparently remained there until the staff at SeaWorld managed to beach him as they moved him to a separate pen. No one at SeaWorld was available to confirm reports that Brancheau's body was badly mangled.

[I Ratant]

Floppy in the wild...

ETA: Even hooked is natural...
.
I sit corrected. :)

[lector]

I was vaguely watching one of the U.S. network news shows last night when they were running a story on Tilikum. I was not paying close attention so I can't even tell you which network it was. However, they reported what I thought was a key detail: when Sealand Of The Pacific closed down and sold Tilikum to Seaworld Of Orlando in January 1992, one of the stipulations in the sale contract was that, because of his involvement in the 1991 trainer death, he was not to be used in orca shows; he was henceforth to be used for breeding purposes only.

If that's true, it raises a shedload of questions.

I didn't keep closer track on this aspect of the story because I assumed it would be all over the Net today & be the chief topic of discussion. However, I can't find a single reference to it via Google. Weird. Maybe it was a faulty report & they've buried it.

[Skeptical Greg]

Possibly the most graphic from Time (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1968071,00.html)...

Well, we all know about anecdotal evidence ..

Don't we ?

Where was the person that witnessed this ?

Did you see the size of that Tank?

This witness would have had to be all over the tank, both above and below the surface...


P.S.

I see the writer is not quoting a witness. He's making this stuff up..

Irresponsible !

[William Parcher]

Is that's true, that will be an IMMENSE relief, I assure you.

I found more pictures. There are some similarities but I don't think it's her.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/8bd0142b.jpg

[William Parcher]

I suspect that SeaWorld has surveillance cameras on the crowd, the pool and possibly even underwater as well.

Greg, it doesn't really matter what Tilikum's actions were in relation to your argument position. His mental state cannot be proven and he cannot talk about it. It's impossible to prove that he intended to kill or even harm her. He can't even confess to anything.

[Ducky]

Let's ask Sigfried and Roy about how good an idea taking a dangerous animal and attempting domestication to put on a show for people is.

Eventually, you get bit. May not be soon, may take a while, but some day this very dangerous animal will be cranky enough to decide they'd rather have a snack than jump through the hoops.

I fully support aquariums and zoos, but I don't support trying to pretend these animals are pets and should do tricks for our amusement.

[slingblade]

It happens when a pronoun is used. "That" could have referred to either comment of Zig's.

So, my apologies for misreading your comment, but you needn't have a cow over it.


No, it referred to the comment I quoted, and only the comment I quoted, and I'll have all the cows I like, miss.

[Hallo Alfie]

Floppy in the wild...

ETA: Even hooked is natural...

Brewers droop?

Sure they do. It's just that such circumstances are rare for dogs to be in. It's more often they kill humans or other animals as instinct (kill but not eat) or instinctual defense (the typical vicious attack by a dog).

Any citations on that? I have never heard of a dog killing a human to have for dinner. Especially not domesticated animals.:)

I don't believe in solving problems with violence. It seems bizarre to me that adults would ever slug it out. ;)

Then I win by forfeit.
Ah well, a win is a win.;)

No, it referred to the comment I quoted, and only the comment I quoted, and I'll have all the cows I like, miss.

Here, take my gloves. :)

[rockinkt]

.
Oh happy day!
I've passe this on to the rightwingnuts that fill my mail box with Obamadidit crap!
:D

Hmmmm...Orcas are black... Obama is black...I think I'm seeing a connection here... ;)

[Hallo Alfie]

Hmmmm...Orcas are black... Obama is black...I think I'm seeing a connection here... ;)

Orcas are black and white, Obam....

Never mind

[Skeptical Greg]

( relatively ) High quality video of Dawn Brancheau interacting with Tilikum right before the incident that led to her death ..

http://www.wesh.com/video/22671481/index.html

[I Ratant]

There's precedents for killing dangerous performing animals.
Electrocution...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsy_%28elephant%29
.
Hanging..
http://www.blueridgecountry.com/archive/mary-the-elephant.html

[Rairun]

I find it bizarre when people (not necessarily anyone here) say stuff like, "In the Orca world, you can murder humans and still keep your day job." Uh, it's a wale. Even if the intent was to kill and not to play, you can't hold it accountable. Some people really do have a f*cked up sense of revenge.

[elgarak]

I Uh, it's a wale.
"Whale".

And: "The term whale is sometimes used to refer to all cetaceans, but in more common usage it generally excludes the members of the Delphinoidea superfamily,..." [from Wikipedia], to which Orcas belong.

The local TV news reports here in Central Florida now claim that Dawn's actions are most likely to have triggered Tilli. If you watch the end of the posted video (just before Tilli grabbed her), she's kneeling fairly deep in the water beside Tilli -- essentially being 'in the water' with him. Whether or not this was against the rules I don't know. But it appears she was overconfident in her trust of Tilli. I also got that impression from the rest of the video.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think it's rather silly to place wild animals in captivity and expect them to act like kittens.

Where do you think kittens originally came from?

[Skeptic Ginger]

.
What would be the proper conditions for a large apex predator in confinement?
I kinda think no confinement is proper.
Those floppy dorsal fins on the Orcas aren't natural.
What causes those?
White sharks have the good sense to die in captivity.Didn't someone post a picture of a wild Orca with a flopped over dorsal fin in this thread?

I'm certainly not advocating any more Orcas be captured. The Sea World spokesperson said they only have the one Orca that wasn't born in captivity.

I'm not an expert who would know what the minimum size tank would be for an Orca, but I believe Jack Hanna was sincere when he said the Orcas are content at Sea World. We've mostly all seen zoo animals that clearly don't have good conditions. But that has changed in many zoos. And many zoos including Sea World are involved in rehabilitating and conserving wildlife and habitats. People get interested in conserving wildlife when they see the animals in person. Maybe in the ideal world there would be no zoos or aquariums but we are in the real world.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, I'll agree that dolphins do seem quite friendly, and have even made 'friends' with sailors. Small Beluga and Narwhales aren't very dangerous either.

But none of them are apex predators, Killer Whales are. It's like thinking a wolf or crocodile would make a great pet, and then being shocked when it bit you one day. Some animals really just aren't meant for domestication (yes, I know wolves were domesticated WAAAAAAY back when, but it was a very long process, and I'm talking about taking a wolf from the wild and believing it could make a nice pet), they are meant to be hunting out in the wilds.

Killer Whales are beautiful creatures, and I can understand why water parks or zoos would want to keep them. The same with tigers, lions, bears...But, it shouldn't be a 'surprise' when one of these animals kills or maims a human. Captivity isn't going to erase that animals natural instincts.Orcas don't kill humans in the wild. We aren't their prey for whatever reason. You can't compare them to wolves or crocs.

From Wiki: "Killer" stereotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale)In Western cultures, killer whales were historically feared as dangerous, savage predators.[92] The first written description of a killer whale was given by Pliny the Elder in circa AD 70, who wrote, "Orcas (the appearance of which no image can express, other than an enormous mass of savage flesh with teeth) are the enemy of [other whales]... they charge and pierce them like warships ramming."[93] There have been very few confirmed attacks on humans by wild killer whales, none of which has been fatal.[94] In one instance, killer whales tried to tip ice floes on which a dog team and photographer of the Terra Nova Expedition was standing.[95] There is speculation that the barking of the sled dogs may have sounded enough like seal calls to trigger the killer whale's hunting curiosity. In the 1970s, a surfer in California was bitten, and in 2005 a boy in Alaska who was splashing in a region frequented by harbor seals was bumped by a killer whale that apparently misidentified him as prey.[96]I don't see the source for that bolded section. But I know Orcas are not dangerous like a shark of that size would be. I live in Orca land. No one thinks of them as dangerous.

[Pinkymcfatfat]

I myself live in bear and coyote land...

Anyway, Skeptic Ginger, I'm not finding fault at all with Tilly, and yes, I do know that humans aren't the natural 'food' of killer whales. While some apex predators will eat a human if given half a chance (crocs, polar bears), most don't consider us to be in their normal diet.

But why take a chance caging up a massive predator in the equiv. of a bathtub? Why never expect it to 'snap' one day?

I just think there really are some critters we need to leave in their natural habitat. Killer whales are among them.

[JcR]

Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Space requirements (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title09/9-1.0.1.1.3.5.31.5.html)

Also here (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=c993a9cb8c210aeda264ebaaf0013704;rg n=div5;view=text;node=9%3A1.0.1.1.3;idno=9;cc=ecfr ) scroll down to Subpart E—Specifications for the Humane Handling, Care, Treatment, and Transportation of Marine Mammals subsection 3.104 Space requirements.

[Hallo Alfie]

Where do you think kittens originally came from?

Ummm, cats?
Or is this one of those rhetorical thingies? :)

[UndercoverElephant]

Orcas don't kill humans in the wild. We aren't their prey for whatever reason. You can't compare them to wolves or crocs.

From Wiki: "Killer" stereotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale)I don't see the source for that bolded section. But I know Orcas are not dangerous like a shark of that size would be. I live in Orca land. No one thinks of them as dangerous.

Orcas like fleshy, fatty lumps of food. Humans (most, anyway) are too scrawny and bony for them: not worth eating. Even sharks don't usually kill humans on purpose, and for the same reason. The reason there are more shark attacks than Orca attacks is that the sharks aren't as clever and are therefore more likely to mistake humans for their preferred prey. Sharks appear to be more likely to just bite on something and see what it tastes like. They are basically just robotic killing machines, as are crocodiles whereas orcas are probably the most intelligent creatures in the sea. If I had to choose betweeen being dumped into the sea next to a pod of orcas or in the vicinity of a great white shark, I'd choose the orcas every time.

This orca not kill for food. It was probably making a point, in the only way it could.

BTW Everywhere in the sea is "orca land". This species can be found everywhere from the poles to the equator.

[bluesjnr]

Where do you think kittens originally came from?

Why Kittonia of course. It's not far from Orca Land where SG lives.

[UndercoverElephant]

Didn't someone post a picture of a wild Orca with a flopped over dorsal fin in this thread?

I'm certainly not advocating any more Orcas be captured. The Sea World spokesperson said they only have the one Orca that wasn't born in captivity.

I'm not an expert who would know what the minimum size tank would be for an Orca, but I believe Jack Hanna was sincere when he said the Orcas are content at Sea World. We've mostly all seen zoo animals that clearly don't have good conditions. But that has changed in many zoos. And many zoos including Sea World are involved in rehabilitating and conserving wildlife and habitats. People get interested in conserving wildlife when they see the animals in person. Maybe in the ideal world there would be no zoos or aquariums but we are in the real world.

I don't mind zoos which house and breed endangered species on captive breeding programs or creatures which can be kept in captivity without it causing too much distress to those animals (which basically means the animals have to be pretty small, pretty stupid or pretty immobile). If I had to list which animals are best suited to being kept in zoos then Orcas would probably the very last entry right at the bottom of the list.

[Skeptical Greg]

Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Space requirements (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title09/9-1.0.1.1.3.5.31.5.html)

Also here (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=c993a9cb8c210aeda264ebaaf0013704;rg n=div5;view=text;node=9%3A1.0.1.1.3;idno=9;cc=ecfr ) scroll down to Subpart E—Specifications for the Humane Handling, Care, Treatment, and Transportation of Marine Mammals subsection 3.104 Space requirements.
I doubt that any marine mammals had any input on those requirements...

[varwoche]

BTW Everywhere in the sea is "orca land". This species can be found everywhere from the poles to the equator. True. But fyi, northern Puget Sound (San Juan Islands) is unique, at least in the lower 49.

(Better yet, 200 miles north to Johnstone Strait, BC which has the largest(?) local population in the world, and if there's a more spectacular/reliable wild Orca viewing experience I'd like to know about it.)

[alfaniner]

Well, that little earthquake and tsunami sure blew this off the news, didn't it?

[I Ratant]

Think of the profit potential in displaying the wet suit the gal was wearing at the time.
I bet they have... and will!

[Skeptic Ginger]

I myself live in bear and coyote land...

Anyway, Skeptic Ginger, I'm not finding fault at all with Tilly, and yes, I do know that humans aren't the natural 'food' of killer whales. While some apex predators will eat a human if given half a chance (crocs, polar bears), most don't consider us to be in their normal diet.

But why take a chance caging up a massive predator in the equiv. of a bathtub? Why never expect it to 'snap' one day?

I just think there really are some critters we need to leave in their natural habitat. Killer whales are among them.According to Jack Hanna and the Sea World spokespersons, the conclusions about the Orcas in captivity being made by PETA and others with similar views are opposed by people with actual expertise about the whales.

I understand the emotional responses, and as I said, I certainly oppose any more wild capture of Orcas. But I do believe there are experts in this field and I trust what they say over the emotional opinions.

[JcR]

I doubt that any marine mammals had any input on those requirements...
The Orca's (http://www.orcahome.de/orcastat.htm) input: Could we have roughly 139 million square miles? At the very least could we have a hundred mile wide tank for our daily swimabout.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Orcas like fleshy, fatty lumps of food. Humans (most, anyway) are too scrawny and bony for them: not worth eating. Even sharks don't usually kill humans on purpose, and for the same reason. The reason there are more shark attacks than Orca attacks is that the sharks aren't as clever and are therefore more likely to mistake humans for their preferred prey. Sharks appear to be more likely to just bite on something and see what it tastes like. They are basically just robotic killing machines, as are crocodiles whereas orcas are probably the most intelligent creatures in the sea. If I had to choose betweeen being dumped into the sea next to a pod of orcas or in the vicinity of a great white shark, I'd choose the orcas every time.

This orca not kill for food. It was probably making a point, in the only way it could.

BTW Everywhere in the sea is "orca land". This species can be found everywhere from the poles to the equator.Well they swim in our bays and Puget sound has at least two resident pods. I've seen them up close many times including in a kayak. No fear results while seeing a Grizzly in the wild up close is fun but nerve racking.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't mind zoos which house and breed endangered species on captive breeding programs or creatures which can be kept in captivity without it causing too much distress to those animals (which basically means the animals have to be pretty small, pretty stupid or pretty immobile). If I had to list which animals are best suited to being kept in zoos then Orcas would probably the very last entry right at the bottom of the list.But what expertise in Orca biology is this based on?

There were many accusations when this first occurred that the whale was isolated from other Orcas, it was stressed, and so on. But that has been denied by Sea World. The whale was only in a separate tank some of the time, it wasn't stressed and if you look at the video just before the incident the whale does not look stressed.

[technoextreme]

Orcas like fleshy, fatty lumps of food. Humans (most, anyway) are too scrawny and bony for them: not worth eating. Even sharks don't usually kill humans on purpose, and for the same reason. The reason there are more shark attacks than Orca attacks is that the sharks aren't as clever and are therefore more likely to mistake humans for their preferred prey. Sharks appear to be more likely to just bite on something and see what it tastes like. They are basically just robotic killing machines, as are crocodiles whereas orcas are probably the most intelligent creatures in the sea. If I had to choose betweeen being dumped into the sea next to a pod of orcas or in the vicinity of a great white shark, I'd choose the orcas every time.

This orca not kill for food. It was probably making a point, in the only way it could.

BTW Everywhere in the sea is "orca land". This species can be found everywhere from the poles to the equator.
No. If I'm not mistaken sharks attack humans not because they are robotic killing machines but because they are the undersea equivalent of Mr. Magoo. They can't tell what they are attacking until they chomp on it. From their perspective there really isn't that much to distinguish us from a seal.

[Skeptic Ginger]

True. But fyi, northern Puget Sound (San Juan Islands) is unique, at least in the lower 49.

(Better yet, 200 miles north to Johnstone Strait, BC which has the largest(?) local population in the world, and if there's a more spectacular/reliable wild Orca viewing experience I'd like to know about it.)Cruising Glacier Bay when a pod is nearby is incredible. There's something about the silence, the cold air, the ambiance of the bay..... fantastic. But I'm not saying better mind you. I love the unpopulated parts of Puget Sound. Sigh..... [/reminisce]

[JcR]

The southern resident J, K, and L pods J Clan (http://www.whaleresearch.com/orca_ID_pods.html)

The northern residents A, G, and R clans (http://northenresidentorcas.blogspot.com/)

http://wildwhales.org/?page_id=44

[scissorhands]

Its fortunate that the employers of that trainer, werent aware of the history of the animal in question, otherwise they could be seen to be grossly negligent of staff safety.

[bluesjnr]

But what expertise in Orca biology is this based on?

The same expertise that is presented here in this thread in it's entirety. None whatsoever.

Nada. Nothing. Nowt. Bugger all.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The same expertise that is presented here in this thread in it's entirety. None whatsoever.

Nada. Nothing. Nowt. Bugger all.I want to point out I am deferring to the Sea World and Jack Hanna claims of expertise without individually verifying their claims. It's my opinion these are reliable sources since Hanna has a long history of working with zoos and animals in the wild. And I can't imagine a corporation as large as Sea World with the millions invested in these Orcas would not have expertise on their staff as to how to properly house and care for the animals.

[JoeTheJuggler]

WTF are they talking about? No evidence that another trainer paid Tilly to kill her?

It sounds like they can't fathom (ahem) the possibility that a cetacean is clever enough to kill a trainer. It sounds like they don't think a killer whale is capable of intent.

Obviously, I offer my sympathy and condolences to the family, but I do think it's time we stop using wild animals in entertainment. There are more than enough humans that would voluntarily provide all our entertainment. I never did get why watching conditioned animals is entertaining anyway.

(Lest anyone claim I'm being inconsistent in saying that a cetacean is capable of intentional actions, but that their shows are merely conditioning: I've never heard of any cetaceans in the wild putting on performances.)

[scissorhands]

Its the millions invested in keeping these animals, that makes the death of the staff involved, less of a consideration.
Im not sure, but I think this particular animal has killed three people so far?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Its fortunate that the employers of that trainer, werent aware of the history of the animal in question, otherwise they could be seen to be grossly negligent of staff safety.

I'm not sure they still might not be found guilty of negligence. I think you could make a pretty strong case that it was their duty to know whether or not a wild animal capable of killing trainers has a history of killing humans.

On the other hand, with circus elephants, you hear stories all the time of males being docile around humans for many years, and then suddenly running amok.

[bluesjnr]

I want to point out I am deferring to the Sea World and Jack Hanna claims of expertise without individually verifying their claims. It's my opinion these are reliable sources since Hanna has a long history of working with zoos and animals in the wild. And I can't imagine a corporation as large as Sea World with the millions invested in these Orcas would not have expertise on their staff as to how to properly house and care for the animals.

I understand and thank you for the clarification.

Let's face it, at best it's an educated guess based on very little prior experience of to how to house and care for such an animal.

[Drudgewire]

Every time someone mentions the three deaths this whale has been involved with, they should point out one of them is sort of justified (http://www.zimbio.com/Tilikum+the+Orca/articles/ahHRN1wH43O/Multiple+Orcasms).

Yes whether it's a guy being dragged underwater with his genitalia caught in a blowhole like a vice or one who keeps getting arrested for boinking the same horse (that Jon Stewart found so damn funny), it seems we South Carolinians just didn't find the "cousins" stereotype embarrassing enough and have upped the ante to animals. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/banjo.gif

[bluesjnr]

Every time someone mentions the three deaths this whale has been involved with, they should point out one of them is sort of justified (http://www.zimbio.com/Tilikum+the+Orca/articles/ahHRN1wH43O/Multiple+Orcasms).

Yes whether it's a guy being dragged underwater with his genitalia caught in a blowhole like a vice or one who keeps getting arrested for boinking the same horse (that Jon Stewart found so damn funny), it seems we South Carolinians just didn't find the "cousins" stereotype embarrassing enough and have upped the ante to animals. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/banjo.gif

Are we talking about a guy humping a whale or a horse here? Would you really stand behind the journalism in the link you provided?

This thread has taken a really bizarre turn .

[Drudgewire]

you[/I] really stand behind the journalism in the link you provided?


Opie and Anthony fans recognized the whale as soon as the name was announced, as they had a lot of fun with the sordid details from way back. And the link I provided includes mainstream articles on the story.

And it made the local press here in Columbia when the family sued. I just chose the first link in a google search, trust me when I say very few of the facts are in dispute.

[Hallo Alfie]

Are we talking about a guy humping a whale or a horse here? Would you really stand behind the journalism in the link you provided?

This thread has taken a really bizarre turn .

I think I'd feel safer behind than in front.

Why not kill two brids with one stone (as it were) and send the naughty orca to Japan for some tests?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I understand and thank you for the clarification.

Let's face it, at best it's an educated guess based on very little prior experience of to how to house and care for such an animal.You mean our guesses in this thread or Sea World's? Because Sea World has been investing in research on the subject for many decades.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Every time someone mentions the three deaths this whale has been involved with, they should point out one of them is sort of justified (http://www.zimbio.com/Tilikum+the+Orca/articles/ahHRN1wH43O/Multiple+Orcasms)....And the decades of time one is talking about here, which no injuries or deaths occurred, and the circumstances of the deaths and so on. Anything less is absurd kneejerking.

[bluesjnr]

Opie and Anthony fans recognized the whale as soon as the name was announced,

:con2:

I think I'd feel safer behind than in front.

Why not kill two brids with one stone (as it were) and send the naughty orca to Japan for some tests?

I have no problem with that. What is a "brid" A.A.A?

:D

[bluesjnr]

You mean our guesses in this thread or Sea World's? Because Sea World has been investing in research on the subject for many decades.

SG I mean Sea Worlds because it is plenty clear to me that Orca's could not give a FF how much money has been spent.

[Drudgewire]

:con2:


It's the sort of story that writes its own punchlines. :D

[Hallo Alfie]

:con2:

I have no problem with that. What is a "brid" A.A.A?

:D

Brid, was the beloved Goddess of the Celtic people.
But clearly my brid was a typo. :)

I wonder if orca's taste like chicken?

[Skeptic Ginger]

SG I mean Sea Worlds because it is plenty clear to me that Orca's could not give a FF how much money has been spent.Were you aware of the Hubbs-Seaworld Research Institute? (http://www.hswri.org/)

[Skeptical Greg]

Its the millions invested in keeping these animals, that makes the death of the staff involved, less of a consideration.
Im not sure, but I think this particular animal has killed three people so far?And has been responsible for the death of thousands of fish ...
Oh, my !

[Skeptic Ginger]

And has been responsible for the death of thousands of fish ...
Oh, my !:D

[Hallo Alfie]

I sense a hint of sarcasm, are you two suggesting that fish don't have feelings and rights. They should not be scoffed (unless you have them fried and have a large quantity of tartar sauce). :)

[rockinkt]

I always laugh when people put one non-human animal above the other in some sort of bizarre ranking.

[Hallo Alfie]

I always laugh when people put one non-human animal above the other in some sort of bizarre ranking.

Me too. They are all equally delicious. :)

[bluesjnr]

I always laugh when people put one non-human animal above the other in some sort of bizarre ranking.

Mmmm the bizarre non-human animal double decker sandwich.

[Skeptical Greg]

Did you hear the joke Paula Poundstone told about eating a fish sandwich in a Seaworld restaurant ?

" ... I'm halfway through my fish burger and I realize, Oh my... I could be eating a slow learner."

[Morrigan]

killer chickens?
Sounds like a bad plot for a sci-fi monster movie.
There's an evil "chicken that is not a chicken, but the incarnation of pure evil" in a Terry Goodkind book. I kid you not.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I always laugh when people put one non-human animal above the other in some sort of bizarre ranking.Sorry to put forth a different point of view, but I do put higher intelligence animals higher in the hierarchy than lower intelligence animals. Perhaps for you it is black and white, our kind and theirs. But for me, intelligent, sentient animals are more relevant than the clueless ones.

[JcR]

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/yb/141812755

Chuck Tompkins, corporate curator of animal behavior for SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment, said the park's female killer whales typically only want Tilikum around them when they are sexually active. All of SeaWorld's other orcas are either females or juveniles.

"Any one day he could spend the whole day by himself, and the next day he could spend the whole day with the females," Tompkins said. He added that Tilikum spends as much as three days alone, though never longer. But some experts say extended periods of isolation can be stressful for a killer whale, an inherently social animal. That, they say, can in turn make them prone to unpredictable behavior such as that exhibited Wednesday.

I guess a bad scenario for Sea world having to isolate Tilikum even more than he has since his capture in 1982 would be a more "hostile or suicidal" animal. This would be a PR mess for SW. These hostilities would more and likely be from pent up frustration caused from lack of social bonding (IMO) leading to some neurotic and obsessive disorders. Clearly (to me anyways) this creature has some issues happening here.
Tilikum may be best off with a life in a bay pen in Iceland or in a new larger facility at SW; with as much social bonding the caregivers can give for the rest of his days.
His teeth are so worn from being filed down and from gnawing gates, that I doubt it would be a candidate for a successful release.
In the end I hope whatever is done, is in the best interest of this animal. I can only imagine SW would do what is in their and Tilikum's (Sea world's cash cow bull) best interests

[William Parcher]

A video of the attack itself is now available on YouTube. It shows part of the attack where Dawn is already in the pool. It is not gory but is scary and dramatic. It looks like very violent play. You can find it at YT using the key words "Tilikum killing Dawn". I don't know if the membership agreement allows me to post the link.

[Alt+F4]

Its fortunate that the employers of that trainer, werent aware of the history of the animal in question, otherwise they could be seen to be grossly negligent of staff safety.

According to CNN:

OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) warned SeaWorld about the inherent dangers of swimming with killer whales -- but then recanted that report after the corporation insisted it was unfair and only speculative. Turns out, the original report was right. Following a 2006 incident at SeaWorld, where a trainer was left badly injured by a whale, OSHA told the animal theme park it was just a matter of time until one of its trainers was killed.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/osha-warned-seaworld-trainer-will-be-killed-by-whale

[GreNME]

A video of the attack itself is now available on YouTube. It shows part of the attack where Dawn is already in the pool. It is not gory but is scary and dramatic. It looks like very violent play. You can find it at YT using the key words "Tilikum killing Dawn". I don't know if the membership agreement allows me to post the link.

I don't think the video that comes up is the actual incident. I've seen the pre-incident footage from a few pages back, and the tank in the videos with the search criteria you gave are a completely different location. Also, the person being tossed about by the whale looks to be a man in the videos on YouTube claiming to be the incident. If it's the incident I think it is (because it was footage used in a Katie Kouric report on the topic), the incident in the video was where a whale wound up playing so roughly with a trainer in San Diego that the trainer wound up with a couple of broken bones but did not drown.

Also, ALT+F4: OSHA has a history with many big acts that feature dangerous animal trainers, and for good reason from a safety standpoint. The fact is that a lot of theses big, dangerous animals can go off unexpectedly because of some uncontrollable factor (like something in the audience) or they could just have a bad day and be cranky or over-rambunctious. Dangerous animal acts give OSHA inspectors nightmares.

[Alt+F4]

I don't think the video that comes up is the actual incident. I've seen the pre-incident footage from a few pages back, and the tank in the videos with the search criteria you gave are a completely different location. Also, the person being tossed about by the whale looks to be a man in the videos on YouTube claiming to be the incident. If it's the incident I think it is (because it was footage used in a Katie Kouric report on the topic), the incident in the video was where a whale wound up playing so roughly with a trainer in San Diego that the trainer wound up with a couple of broken bones but did not drown.

Yes, there are two different video. The Katie Kouric one is of a man but in the YouTube video you can definitely see a ponytail. The commentary towards the end is in Italian. Before anyone else watches, let me say that I personally found it disturbing.

Also, ALT+F4: OSHA has a history with many big acts that feature dangerous animal trainers, and for good reason from a safety standpoint. The fact is that a lot of theses big, dangerous animals can go off unexpectedly because of some uncontrollable factor (like something in the audience) or they could just have a bad day and be cranky or over-rambunctious. Dangerous animal acts give OSHA inspectors nightmares.

Yet OSHA backed down on the final report on the dangers of swimming with orcas. I think there is more to this story too.

[William Parcher]

Not the video. Sorry.

[Skeptical Greg]

You are correct WP ..

The talking heads crack me up ..

In this shocking story, CNN's Randi Kaye reveals that OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) warned SeaWorld about the inherent dangers of swimming with killer whales --

Who would that be shocking to besides someone who just flew in from the moon ? :rolleyes:

Now for these other late breaking shockers:

Fire burns, and snow can cause frost bite ...

[William Parcher]

Former SeaWorld employee speaks out about deadly orca attack (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-former-seaworld-employee-speaks-20100823,0,7524991.story)

A former employee this morning accused SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment of obstructing a federal investigation into the February death of a trainer at SeaWorld Orlando.

Linda Simons, a former health and safety director at SeaWorld, said in a phone interview that SeaWorld repeatedly refused to turn over certain documents — including records that she said chronicled the aggression histories of the company's various killer whales — that were requested by the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration during a six-month probe into the death of trainer Dawn Brancheau, who was drowned by a six-ton orca named Tilikum.

Simons also said SeaWorld refused to make certain key employees available for interviews with OSHA and redacted information from some records that it did provide the agency, which is expected to issue the results of its investigation today.


Federal agency fines SeaWorld in trainer's death (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-seaworld-trainer-death-osha-20100823,0,5627009.story)

Federal investigators on Monday blasted SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment for allowing its animal trainers to work with killer whales without adequate protection, following a six-month investigation into the violent drowning of a trainer at SeaWorld Orlando.

Investigators with the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommended that SeaWorld trainers never again have direct contact with Tilikum, the six-ton killer whale who drowned trainer Dawn Brancheau on Feb. 24. But they also recommended that trainers not be permitted to continue swimming or working in close contact with the company's smaller killer whales — unless SeaWorld implements new safeguards.

The agency proposed fines totaling $75,000 for SeaWorld, which generated approximately $1.4 billion in revenue last year.

[casebro]

I don't know how many 'trainers' have gotten bit. Bit I've been in SanDiego since '60. my Dad was a carpenter that built some of the buildings here, us kids got in before the public for 'practice' shows.

In the ensuing 45 years, seems I've heard of about half a dozen violent incidents. Including a high school classmate.

So Sea World knows of the dangers. Tough to fight a workers comp suit, I'll bet.

[Ron_Tomkins]

The funny thing is that more than once I've said "The Killer whale" and someone (usually someone "smart") immediately reacts "Don't say that! That whale is not a killer!!". Back then, I would reply "I know, relax. I'm just calling it by its assigned name", but actually later I found out this whale carries that name for something. And the videos of Killer Whales going mad and killing their trainers are quite common.

Yet, people seem to have a Disney mentality in which it's inconceivable that this animal could turn aggressive because... oh, I mean, just look at that cutey face!! How could that beauty ever turn aggressive?

[Skeptical Greg]

...videos of Killer Whales going mad and killing their trainers are quite common.

Evidence ?