Multiculturalism and ethnic identity

[Arcade22]

Will multiculturalism eventually lead to the destruction of the Swedish ethinc identity?

This is nothing new in the Newspapers, a 'Swedish' terrorist blows him self up in the Somalia. This person is not an ethnic Swede, however.
He is in fact an immigrant from Somalia, though the newspapers don't mention it. Rather than to mention that he is in fact a Somalian living in Sweden,
quite possibly with Swedish citizenship, he is simply styled as being a 'Swede'.

Therefore the connection between being 'Swedish' means that the person is apart of the ethnic group 'the Swedes' is severed.

While this is more common in newspapers, television and politics, it has started to infect peoples minds on a larger scale.

If this idea that being 'Swedish' is merely living in the land called Sweden becomes accepted as the status quo,
will it not spell the end of the Swedes as an ethnic group?

[Dats]

Did Henrik Larson ruin the Swedish ethnic group by being referred to as Swedish ditto Zlatan Ibrahimovic or their fathers?

Who exactly is a member of the Swedish ethnic group?

[Leif Roar]

Will multiculturalism eventually lead to the destruction of the Swedish ethinc identity?

Ja, det håper eg då inderlig.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Will multiculturalism eventually lead to the destruction of the Swedish ethinc identity?


Yes. Swedish ethinic identity as it is currently defined or was defined a few decades ago is doomed to die. This is true of all ethnic identities. Ethnic identies, change, morph, copulate, assimilate, merge and become something new. This is neither novel nor unexpected. It has been happening for the entirety of human history and I see no evidence that it is expected to end. Perhaps with global transportation, communication and multinationalism the rates at which ethnicities change is faster than two centuries ago. The ethnic identities of European nations today are different than those 500 years ago. Which are different than those 2000 years ago. The Sweden you grew up in will not be the Sweden you die in. This was true for your parents, your grandparents all the way back to the first of your ancestors that immigrated to the Swedish land. Which may or may not have been the first peoples to populate the land.

[Undesired Walrus]

Will multiculturalism eventually lead to the destruction of the Swedish ethinc identity?

This is nothing new in the Newspapers, a 'Swedish' terrorist blows him self up in the Somalia. This person is not an ethnic Swede, however.


For the 822nd time, at what stage does one become an ethnic Swede? When do Americans with European ancestry become 'ethnic Americans', for example?

[Foolmewunz]

Yes.

It's over. Might as well float yourself into the Arctic Ocean on an ice floe, since you're doomed, anyway.

Alternate suggestion: Live with it. See little baby. American-Sicilian-Jewish-Thai-Lao born in Hong Kong. He's your future. Be nice to me and I'll ask him to put you in a nicer home when you're older.

[Pinkymcfatfat]

My own two sons are Irish-German-Slavic-Jewish-Eastern Band Cherokee-Choctaw-Americans. If and when they get married and have kids, I'm sure those kids will have even more ethnic identities in them.

Mutts are healthier anyways.

[Thunder]

My own two sons are Irish-German-Slavic-Jewish-Eastern Band Cherokee-Choctaw-Americans.

I'm jealous. I wish I were a mutt.

anyways, the sooner the Swedish ethnic group dies, the better. Drunkin' pigs..the lot of them.

[The Fallen Serpent]

I'm jealous. I wish I were a mutt.

anyways, the sooner the Swedish ethnic group dies, the better. Drunkin' pigs..the lot of them.

But but but but... I love their culinary contributions!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MuppetsStudio#p/u/16/2Qj8PhxSnhg

[dudalb]

I'm jealous. I wish I were a mutt.

anyways, the sooner the Swedish ethnic group dies, the better. Drunkin' pigs..the lot of them.

Move to Minnesota or Wisconsin and say that. Just be damn sure your insurance is paid up.......

[dudalb]

Arcade22 will have a heart attack when he finds out that the current chief of the Viking Tribe in my Society For Creative Anarnchronism iArea s a African American. (and yeah, he gets a lot of Obama references thrown at him).....

[jayh]

The entire concept of ethnic identity is a problem. The 'multicultural' side of things seems to be the most obsessed with preserving identity. There is an attitude of culture and identity as museum pieces, trying to encourage, for examples, 'native cultures ' to maintain these historic artifacts in the reality of the current world.

Culture is simply humanity's way of dealing with time and circumstances. When time and cirucmstances change, the old cultural ways become irrelevant.

[Thunder]

When do Americans with European ancestry become 'ethnic Americans', for example?

that...is a damn good question.

personally, I think the third generation, becomes TRUE Americans. Its just my silly view.

but will I, who is the 3rd generation to be born in the USA, and the 5th to live here, EVER be as American...as a Navaho or Cherokee? I really feel the answer is no.

something must be said for folks who's ancestors lived in a land for 10,000 years.

and yet, Jews have lived in Ukraine and Italy for 2,000 years, but we are still seen as foreigners by many.

[Foolmewunz]

It's a sobering thought (to some, I guess) that in the time that's elapsed since the posting of the OP, a good eighty not-very-ethnically-Swedish immigrants have arrived in the country.

On the bright side, though, the spring thaw should be coming and those ice floes will be easier to locate.

[Thunder]

This, is the only good thing that ever came out of Sweden:

sY_Yf4zz-yo

[The Fallen Serpent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6kjyPrVX9s&NR
Go to 1:19. This rant pegs the true extent of evil that is the Swedish culture. His call for a UN Resolution showcases true wisdom.

On the other hand, Stockholm (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-april-21-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--1) Syndrome (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-22-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--2) doesn't seem--- OMFSM NO! SAVE ME! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s)

[Alt+F4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6kjyPrVX9s&NR=1
Go to 1:19. This rant pegs the true extent of evil that is the Swedish culture. His call for a UN Resolution showcases true wisdom.

On the other hand, Stockholm (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-april-21-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--1) Syndrome (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-22-2009/the-stockholm-syndrome-pt--2) doesn't seem--- OMFSM NO! SAVE ME! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s)

Link doesn't work.

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

Did Henrik Larson ruin the Swedish ethnic group by being referred to as Swedish ditto Zlatan Ibrahimovic or their fathers?

Who exactly is a member of the Swedish ethnic group?

Them
http://exodus.prayingmadness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Swedish-Girls22919559-f899-42a7-a051-298f3dcfe77f.jpeg

[TragicMonkey]

I never really understood the fascination people have with which location on the planet's surface was the most commonly frequented by the formerly living people who supplied their DNA.

[Fiona]

Arcade22:If the person you refer to has Swedish citizenship then he is Swedish. That is just a statement of fact. One's nationality has nothing to do with "ethnicity", however defined.

But I am still not clear how you define it anyway. What does an ethnicity comprise?

[Thunder]

Arcade22:If the person you refer to has Swedish citizenship then he is Swedish. That is just a statement of fact.

yes, that person possesses Swedish nationality. but that does not make them an ethnic Swede.

i can move to Ireland and become an Irish citizen, but that does not make me an ethnic Celt.

does this mean I am agreeing with Arcade? only slightly.

though, it should be pointed out, that even in the USA, 3rd generation Japanese-Americans, are still seen by many white Americans, as being not completely American. odd huh?

but, just because a citizen of Sweden is not an ethnic Swede, does not mean that they should be treated any differently then an ethnic Swede. I believe Arcade would disagree with this strongly.

[Fiona]

So how are you defining ethnicity, Parky?

[Thunder]

So how are you defining ethnicity, Parky?

i follow this definition:

"An ethnic group is a group (http://forums.randi.org/wiki/Group_(sociology)) of humans (http://forums.randi.org/wiki/Humans) whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed- sharing cultural characteristics[1] (http://forums.randi.org/#cite_note-Smith-0)[2] (http://forums.randi.org/#cite_note-1) This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness.[3] (http://forums.randi.org/#cite_note-EB-2) [4] (http://forums.randi.org/#cite_note-3)"

i.e....my ethnic group is Ashkenazi Jewish. Specifically, Czech, Lithuanian, and Ukrainian Jews. I however, just refer to my ethnicity as being Czech Jewish.

[rockinkt]

<snip>
When do Americans with European ancestry become 'ethnic Americans', for example?

The first time they cheat on their taxes - just like Canadians. :)

[Thunder]

for many Americans, one becomes a TRUE American, when they get white skin, blue eyes, blond hair, and worship Jesus. And they have an Anglo-Saxon sounding name.

[The Fallen Serpent]

The first time they cheat on their taxes - just like Canadians. :)
I will never be a true American :(
for many Americans, one becomes a TRUE American, when they get:
white skincheck
blue eyescheck
blond hairBlond till puberty, so check then uncheck
worship JesusLost that around puberty. So check and uncheck again.
And they have an Anglo-Saxon sounding name.Mine is a very common Irish American name. I'm screwed!

[Fiona]

Makes no sense to me at all. It originally meant gentile, per the OED:)

[Thunder]

i have green/blue eyes. but brown hair. and i don't worship jesus.

hence, for many Americans, I will always be a Jew...and not a TRUE American.

[AWPrime]

Yes. Swedish ethinic identity as it is currently defined or was defined a few decades ago is doomed to die. This is true of all ethnic identities. Ethnic identies, change, morph, copulate, assimilate, merge and become something new.
There is a difference between a dying culture and a changing culture.

[Arcade22]

Did Henrik Larson ruin the Swedish ethnic group by being referred to as Swedish ditto Zlatan Ibrahimovic or their fathers?

'Henke' is merely a half-Swede and Zlatan isn't Swedish in any other way than that he was born in Sweden. Calling either one of them Swede is borderline sacrilegious IMO.

Who exactly is a member of the Swedish ethnic group?

Anyone whose lineage makes him more than half-Swede and looks like a Swede (meaning: is white).

[Arcade22]

Arcade22:If the person you refer to has Swedish citizenship then he is Swedish. That is just a statement of fact. One's nationality has nothing to do with "ethnicity", however defined.

Which means that 'nationality' is meaningless. Nationality doesn't tell you anything important about a person, but ethnicity does.
It means that a Somali parasite 'refugee' is just as much a Swede as one whose parents have been living in Sweden as long as records have been kept.

[Fiona]

Which means that 'nationality' is meaningless. Nationality doesn't tell you anything important about a person, but ethnicity does.


Strange: I reach precisely the opposite conclusion on the same facts ;)

[Madalch]

but will I, who is the 3rd generation to be born in the USA, and the 5th to live here, EVER be as American...as a Navaho or Cherokee?

I don't know about Americans and Navajos, but I do know that many Cree and Blackfoot don't consider themselves Canadians. Their ancestors have lived in Canada for thousands of years, but Canadian are the newcomers, not the (ab)originals.

[GreNME]

Weren't the Irish immigrants supposed to have posed a threat to the United States? Wait, there were also the Polish and other Eastern European folks-- as well as the Jews and maybe even the Italians-- who posed a threat as well.

And, hey, let's not forget how the Mexicans are ruining America.

[Ziggurat]

If this idea that being 'Swedish' is merely living in the land called Sweden becomes accepted as the status quo,
will it not spell the end of the Swedes as an ethnic group?

It's not your ethnic identity you need to worry about (and it's not worth defending anyways - go hybrid vigor!), it's your social identity. The fact that the terrorist you mention was of Somali descent and not ethnically Swedish is a mere curiosity, except that it happens to be correlated with the fact that he clearly wasn't socially a Swede either. It's social cohesion, not ethnic homogeneity, which needs to be defended. Do not confuse the two.

[Redtail]

'Henke' is merely a half-Swede and Zlatan isn't Swedish in any other way than that he was born in Sweden. Calling either one of them Swede is borderline sacrilegious IMO.



Anyone whose lineage makes him more than half-Swede and looks like a Swede (meaning: is white).

being able to tell someone is "white" by looks was gone at least 37 years ago.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_120444a14cc5e00298.jpg (javascript:void(0))

[Leif Roar]

Anyone whose lineage makes him more than half-Swede and looks like a Swede (meaning: is white).

A recursive definition. How fun. So what's the exit criterion? Who's the "ursvenskan"? The primal Swede? The First Swede, from whose loins all Swedishness originates. No, wait. It would have to be an original Swedish Couple, wouldn't it, since if it was just one then Swedishness would disappear already in the second generation.

[paximperium]

A recursive definition. How fun. So what's the exit criterion? Who's the "ursvenskan"? The primal Swede? The First Swede, from whose loins all Swedishness originates. No, wait. It would have to be an original Swedish Couple, wouldn't it, since if it was just one then Swedishness would disappear already in the second generation.
So Arcade's ideal Swede involves inbreeding? Sounds like some of our southern rednecks to me.

[Soapy Sam]

Yes. Swedish ethinic identity as it is currently defined or was defined a few decades ago is doomed to die. This is true of all ethnic identities. Ethnic identies, change, morph, copulate, assimilate, merge and become something new. This is neither novel nor unexpected. It has been happening for the entirety of human history and I see no evidence that it is expected to end. Perhaps with global transportation, communication and multinationalism the rates at which ethnicities change is faster than two centuries ago. The ethnic identities of European nations today are different than those 500 years ago. Which are different than those 2000 years ago. The Sweden you grew up in will not be the Sweden you die in. This was true for your parents, your grandparents all the way back to the first of your ancestors that immigrated to the Swedish land. Which may or may not have been the first peoples to populate the land.

While agreeing with all you say regarding cultural identity, I would point out that there is evidence suggesting genetic identity has remained surprisingly stable for some millennia within Europe. While Britain unquestionably has people with Roman, Viking and Saxon genes, for instance, they seem to remain exceptions, not the norm. The implication is that new people bring big changes in culture, but are absorbed into the main genepool.

Modern mass transport may be changing this. For instance, the number of Afro Caribbeans to arrive in England since 1945 may exceed all the Viking settlers ever to see England in several centuries, by a large margin.

In countries with low population densities for their area and small actual populations, we could see not just a cultural ethnic shift, but a significant genepool change in a single lifetime. This may be a new event in our history (though it must have happened in prehistory often. Britain has been totally abandoned and resettled several times for instance.)

[Redtail]

So Arcade's ideal Swede involves inbreeding? Sounds like some of our southern rednecks to me.

Suh, I say, suh! As a loyal son of the South, I feel the need to point out that the highest rate of incest per-capita is in a county in Vermont!


(Or so I've been told. Honestly the only thing I brought with me from the south is BBQ.)

[Dats]

'Henke' is merely a half-Swede and Zlatan isn't Swedish in any other way than that he was born in Sweden. Calling either one of them Swede is borderline sacrilegious IMO.

Oh it's borderline sacrilegious, what a mistake I have made. I heartily appologise to the very successful Henrik and Zlatan if me calling them Swedish linked them in any way to ethnic Swedes like you.

[I Ratant]

My buddy Gunnar, a Dane said that "dumb Swede" was a waste of words.
"Swede" was all that was needed.
Sadly, we worked with the stereotype of the name.

[I Ratant]

Arcade22 will have a heart attack when he finds out that the current chief of the Viking Tribe in my Society For Creative Anarnchronism iArea s a African American. (and yeah, he gets a lot of Obama references thrown at him).....
.
Keyboardist in the Native American Blues Band..lives down the street from me, is a Norwegian.

[I Ratant]

This, is the only good thing that ever came out of Sweden:

sY_Yf4zz-yo
.
Nope...
This'un!
And this'un.
Who didn't fall in with her in "The Pink Panther"?

[shadron]

Recently the NatGeo origins project garbbed a couple hundred people from a Brooklyn street fair and ran their genetics through their database to determine where they all originated form "ethnically". Probably the biggest surprise from the exercise was that two of the darker African-Americans had a larger proportion of European roots than they had African. It came as a shock to both of them that they had any white heritage at all, though they were entirely African in appearance.

[AWPrime]

Recently the NatGeo origins project garbbed a couple hundred people from a Brooklyn street fair and ran their genetics through their database to determine where they all originated form "ethnically". Probably the biggest surprise from the exercise was that two of the darker African-Americans had a larger proportion of European roots than they had African. It came as a shock to both of them that they had any white heritage at all, though they were entirely African in appearance.Is it really a surprise? If a person is African-American then he/she most likely has some or a lot of white heritage.

[shadron]

Is it really a surprise? If a person is African-American then he/she most likely has some or a lot of white heritage.

T'was a surprise to them. They had no idea that they had more than a sprinkling, perhaps.

[Undesired Walrus]

but will I, who is the 3rd generation to be born in the USA, and the 5th to live here, EVER be as American...as a Navaho or Cherokee? I really feel the answer is no.

What does that even mean: 'be as American'? How long did it take for Cherokees to become ethnic Americans when their ancestors first came to America? 1000 years? If not 1000, why?

Why does 'Americanism' only come from your genes? Isn't that a remarkably shallow way of looking at things?

something must be said for folks who's ancestors lived in a land for 10,000 years.

What?

[Arcade22]

It's not your ethnic identity you need to worry about (and it's not worth defending anyways - go hybrid vigor!), it's your social identity. The fact that the terrorist you mention was of Somali descent and not ethnically Swedish is a mere curiosity, except that it happens to be correlated with the fact that he clearly wasn't socially a Swede either. It's social cohesion, not ethnic homogeneity, which needs to be defended. Do not confuse the two.

And where do you think social cohesion comes from? How can these people become assimilated when multiculturalism
is specifically making sure that they are able to continue to behave like they are back in Somalia, China or etc?

Multiculturalism is antithetical to social cohesion.

[Arcade22]

A recursive definition. How fun. So what's the exit criterion? Who's the "ursvenskan"? The primal Swede? The First Swede, from whose loins all Swedishness originates. No, wait. It would have to be an original Swedish Couple, wouldn't it, since if it was just one then Swedishness would disappear already in the second generation.

AFAIK, the Swedish people grew up from the different Swedish tribes sometime around 1200-1400 AD.

But i guess that you believe that there isn't any separate Swedish people tied together by race, history, culture and language. Right?

[Arcade22]

So Arcade's ideal Swede involves inbreeding? Sounds like some of our southern rednecks to me.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b2d52bc5d842.gifhttp://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b75f85d8a1d1.gif

[Leif Roar]

AFAIK, the Swedish people grew up from the different Swedish tribes sometime around 1200-1400 AD.

So, basically, you're saying that people from Idre, Särna, Gotland, Skåne, Jemtland, Herjedalen and Båhuslen are not "Real Swedes." Neither, of course, is the Swedish Royal House.

But i guess that you believe that there isn't any separate Swedish people tied together by race, history, culture and language. Right?

History, culture and language, sure. Race is a cultural construct.

[timhau]

Did Henrik Larson ruin the Swedish ethnic group by being referred to as Swedish ditto Zlatan Ibrahimovic or their fathers?

No. They couldn't have; by the time these guys were famous, Martin Dahlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dahlin) had already destroyed Swedish ethnic identity.