Equal rights for gays - Dutch RC style

[ddt]

During carnival, a local priest refused to give communion to Prince Carnival because he was openly gay. The priest was backed in this decision by the bishop of Den Bosch. The gay rights lobby group COC called on its members to attend mass in Den Bosch. Last Sunday, instead of the normal 250 people, 500 turned up in the St. John's Cathedral of Den Bosch. In his infallible wisdom, the bishop decided to not give communion to anyone. That's also equal rights, I guess. :p The COC has said they are ready to continue the protest for seven more weeks. (link (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/03/gay_communion_protests_to_cont.php))

[Sledge]

The organisation is called COC? Is that deliberate, or an unfortunate accident?

[ddt]

The organisation is called COC? Is that deliberate, or an unfortunate accident?

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COC_Nederland) explains the origin of the name:
COC originally stood for Cultuur en Ontspanningscentrum (Center for Culture and Leisure), which was intended as a "cover" name for its real purpose.

I didn't know that until I looked it up, just now. I guess most Dutch people don't know either. I don't get the pun you allude to - could you explain?

Anyway, I think the bishop's reaction is a classic case of cutting off his nose to spite his face. After Vatican 2, the Dutch RC church has for a long time been quite progressive, but Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have, with their new appointments of bishops, managed to turn back the clock to the Middle Ages. They're reaping now what they sowed.

[Sledge]

The word "cock" in English has (as is typical with English) several meanings, one of them being a slang term for the male reproductive organ. A bunch of gay men running around saying "We're COC" is amusing in a schoolboy, Viz-reading way. Or to put it another way, I'm easily amused. :D

I'm not entirely sure what to make of the story, to be honest. I think the church has the right to turn away gay people if that's what their religion says, just as I think the gay people have a right to protest and make the church look silly. As an atheist, I guess I'm quite happy with the notion of a church making itself look silly and irrelevant.

[ddt]

The word "cock" in English
Sorry for being dense. :o :D
BTW, they not only represent (male) gays, but nowadays the whole LGBT spectrum.


I'm not entirely sure what to make of the story, to be honest. I think the church has the right to turn away gay people if that's what their religion says, just as I think the gay people have a right to protest and make the church look silly. As an atheist, I guess I'm quite happy with the notion of a church making itself look silly and irrelevant.
I agree 100% on all three counts with you. I'm also a bit confused why people who are not accepted by the church, still stay within the church - why not start your own church? :) The RC position on gays seems to be that they accept gay people, as long as they don't practice it :jaw-dropp which seems to me to be utterly hypocritical.

Part of the news is that this didn't happen 20 years ago - the Dutch RC church has made quite a swing back to orthodox positions.

More interesting context is that this happens with the municipal elections next Wednesday. Wilders has been on tour the last weeks with his message that Islam is evil because (a.o.) they hate gays.

And finally, last week the first RC sex abuse scandal in the Netherlands surfaced. Priests had been abusing boys at a boarding school. (link (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/02/dutch_don_bosco_priests_accuse.php)).

[sadhatter]

Sorry for being dense. :o :D
BTW, they not only represent (male) gays, but nowadays the whole LGBT spectrum.


I agree 100% on all three counts with you. I'm also a bit confused why people who are not accepted by the church, still stay within the church - why not start your own church? :) The RC position on gays seems to be that they accept gay people, as long as they don't practice it :jaw-dropp which seems to me to be utterly hypocritical.

Part of the news is that this didn't happen 20 years ago - the Dutch RC church has made quite a swing back to orthodox positions.

More interesting context is that this happens with the municipal elections next Wednesday. Wilders has been on tour the last weeks with his message that Islam is evil because (a.o.) they hate gays.

And finally, last week the first RC sex abuse scandal in the Netherlands surfaced. Priests had been abusing boys at a boarding school. (link (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/02/dutch_don_bosco_priests_accuse.php)).

You know as a bi guy, i don't understand this either. A group has been formed for about 2000 years or so, and one of their rules is don't be gay/don't like gay people. Why exactly is it you want to join?

I guess it is the fair and polite way christians have historically treated gays, that must be it.

[Doc Daneeka]

You know as a bi guy, i don't understand this either. A group has been formed for about 2000 years or so, and one of their rules is don't be gay/don't like gay people. Why exactly is it you want to join?

I guess it is the fair and polite way christians have historically treated gays, that must be it.

Like the Log Cabin Republicans. I can't wrap my mind around that. Why would one ever think that such a group is a good one to join?

[Sledge]

Yes, why would gay men want to join an all-male organisation that wears dresses?

[biomorph]

Yes, why would gay men want to join an all-male organisation that wears dresses?

deleted

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

The RC position on gays seems to be that they accept gay people, as long as they don't practice it :jaw-dropp which seems to me to be utterly hypocritical.



And there's the fact that, according to their own doctrines, homosexual sex is actually the exact same sin that premartial and extramarital heterosexual sex is. Gay people can't marry and so having sex for them is a sin. Same thing goes (or should go) for guys who have sex with their girlfriends. Yep, having a boyfriend is no better or worse than having a girlfriend- in theory, anyway.

In practice, of course, Catholics who drink, smoke, mess around with women, swear and commit all sorts of sins still go crazy when homosexuality is even brought up. Like my party boy Catholic cousin, who practically lived with his then girlfriend, now wife for nine years but went to confession right before his wedding and said he was sorry and, by this, somehow erased nine years of constant and fully conscious sinning- but who still laughs and sneers whenever he even hears about gays...what a hypocrite. Oh, I'm sorry, he felt guilty about it? Well, not guilty enough to not do it for nine years!

If the RC wants to be consistent- within their own rules - on this, they should ban all heterosexuals who aren't either celibate or married from getting communion.

[Shrike]

If the RC wants to be consistent- within their own rules - on this, they should ban all heterosexuals who aren't either celibate or married from getting communion.

They're getting there, according to today's papers. Every 'sinner' will be denied communion.
In the rest of your post you could easily replace Catholic with Christian, at least in this country.

Wilders retoric or not, I don't soon see gays protesting the same way in a mosque.

[devnull]

What's the problem here?

Organisation of bigots is bigoted. News at 11.

[HansMustermann]

They're getting there, according to today's papers. Every 'sinner' will be denied communion.
In the rest of your post you could easily replace Catholic with Christian, at least in this country.

Wilders retoric or not, I don't soon see gays protesting the same way in a mosque.

I thought you had to be excommunicated to be denied communion?

[Shrike]

I thought you had to be excommunicated to be denied communion?
No, IIRC, any living in sin - being divorced, living together before marriage, etc.

[HansMustermann]

So then they'll get rid of the confessionals too? I mean, if they're that much against offering a service to sinners...

[Doc Daneeka]

No, IIRC, any living in sin - being divorced, living together before marriage, etc.

Hmmm. I wonder whether having sex with altarboys is enough to warrant such a sanction.

[Shrike]

So then they'll get rid of the confessionals too? I mean, if they're that much against offering a service to sinners...
No, the confessionals are meant to rid you of the sin, You have to stop them of course. Or confess again....
Hmmm. I wonder whether having sex with altarboys is enough to warrant such a sanction.
I think they balance each other out :D

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

...In the rest of your post you could easily replace Catholic with Christian, at least in this country.

...

Wait- you have them, too?! :eek:

I'd imagine that the Christians in the Netherlands would be a) non existent and b) very tolerant towards homosexuals.

[ddt]

They're getting there, according to today's papers. Every 'sinner' will be denied communion.
As long as these gay protests continue, nobody gets communion :D. The priest in the Den Bosch cathedral denied everyone communion - except himself. :rolleyes:


In the rest of your post you could easily replace Catholic with Christian, at least in this country.
You refer to the support from the SGP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Political_Party) political party? They draw their support from a couple of small, orthodox calvinist churches. The mainstream PKN church leaves the issue to the local communities, and they even have married gay couples in church. The mainstream christian political party CDA has had several openly gay or lesbian MPs and ministers, e.g., current agriculture minister Gerda Verdonk.


Wilders retoric or not, I don't soon see gays protesting the same way in a mosque.
Not soon, no, and inasfew as you'll see gays protesting at a protestant church. They have a lot of local autonomy. When you don't like your minister/imam, you go to the church/mosque next door where the minister/imam is more to your liking. Or you lobby to have him replaced or not re-appointed. So the issue is a lot less poignant than with the RC church, whose policy is determined by their dictator in Rome.

With an increase of the number of home-grown imams, I can see a swing in muslim policy towards gays - not at all mosques but at least in some.