Please define Randi's definition of Normal

[roscoe_the_first]

If the One Million Dollar Challenge is to demonstrate Paranormal then one must first define Normal. Let me speculate a little here.

If (what a great way to start a sentence) as some have suggested the human being has hidden inherent powers that have been suppressed and someone acquires the ability to unlock these powers and demonstrates these powers satisfactorily, will the One Million Dollar Challenge be rendered null and void because these are powers now demonstrated but previously unrecognised and are now Normal to the human condition and not Para-Normal?

Will New Science be Paranormal?

Wikipedia describes Paranormal as:

Paranormal is a general term (coined circa 1915–1920) that designates experiences that lie outside "the range of normal experience or scientific explanation", or which indicates phenomena understood to be outside of science's current ability to explain or measure. Paranormal phenomena are distinct from certain hypothetical entities, such as dark matter and dark energy, insofar as paranormal phenomena are inconsistent with the world as already understood through empirical observation coupled with scientific methodology. (My emphasis)

If the Million Dollar Challenge defines the demonstration of so-called Paranormal demonstration in terms of a scientific experiment then it is no longer paranormal under this definition.

It's a little like the maxim:

"Treason doth never prosper, for if it prosper none dare call it treason"

[erlando]

The MDC addresses abilities that at the time of demonstration is considered (by the JREF) to be paranormal.

Merriam-Webster definition:

Main Entry: para·nor·mal
Pronunciation: \ˌpa-rə-ˈnȯr-məl, ˈpa-rə-ˌ\
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1920

: not scientifically explainable : supernatural


See also the FAQ (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html):


2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?

Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”

Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.

[brodski]

The MDC accepts claims based on what is [b]beleaved[/I] to be paranormal at the point at which the challange aplication is accepted. If it turnsa out that the claimant can demonstrate a "new science" or a never before seen ability that would be gfantastic, and although people could argue over whether it would still be paranormal or not, the MDC would have been won and the monies would be paid. The MDC is designed as a practical test of ability, not a semantic game.

[Sean84]

If the One Million Dollar Challenge is to demonstrate Paranormal then one must first define Normal. Let me speculate a little here.

If (what a great way to start a sentence) as some have suggested the human being has hidden inherent powers that have been suppressed and someone acquires the ability to unlock these powers and demonstrates these powers satisfactorily, will the One Million Dollar Challenge be rendered null and void because these are powers now demonstrated but previously unrecognised and are now Normal to the human condition and not Para-Normal?

Will New Science be Paranormal?

Wikipedia describes Paranormal as:

(My emphasis)

If the Million Dollar Challenge defines the demonstration of so-called Paranormal demonstration in terms of a scientific experiment then it is no longer paranormal under this definition.

It's a little like the maxim:

"Treason doth never prosper, for if it prosper none dare call it treason"

Do you have a paranormal ability and wish to apply?

I ask because the sub-forum for jerking people around is further down.

[roscoe_the_first]

Well let me stimulate some responses by laying my cards on the table. The first post at the start of the thread is my first post onto the JREF forum.

I am retired and am now studying something that I have been wanting to do all my working life but have had no time.

I am an Occult Writer.

That should get the keyboards rattling.

My current (no pun intended) research is based around Ley Lines.

As a former Network Engineer I have spent a lifetime thinking logicically (you cannot do the job if you don't have the ability to do this).

Ley Lines seem to have no logical scientific basis.

But there's one aspect of them that I cannot come to terms with. If you are interested to find out more on this aspect then I'll start another thread under a more appropriate title.

[Sean84]

Do you have a paranormal ability and wish to apply?

I ask because the sub-forum for jerking people around is further down.

Well let me stimulate some responses by laying my cards on the table. The first post at the start of the thread is my first post onto the JREF forum.

I am retired and am now studying something that I have been wanting to do all my working life but have had no time.

I am an Occult Writer.

That should get the keyboards rattling.

My current (no pun intended) research is based around Ley Lines.

As a former Network Engineer I have spent a lifetime thinking logicically (you cannot do the job if you don't have the ability to do this).

Ley Lines seem to have no logical scientific basis.

But there's one aspect of them that I cannot come to terms with. If you are interested to find out more on this aspect then I'll start another thread under a more appropriate title.

Gotcha.

ETA: But do please start a thread on the magical powers of ley lines.

[arthwollipot]

I'm interested. Please provide a link here when you start that thread.

[PB2007]

Ley Lines seem to have no logical scientific basis.

Are Ley Lines an actual, provable thing? You know, i mean, real?

[tuoni]

Are Ley Lines an actual, provable thing? You know, i mean, real?

He's started a new thread >HERE< (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=169094) :)

[Cuddles]

Something to remember is that the MDC will not accept claims that rely on other claims. From the challenge FAQ (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-faq.html):
If you are submitting a claim that works off a previous assumption, you have to present evidence proving the assumption correct first. For example, a claim of exorcism must have prior proof of the existence of demons, unless the existence of demons would be self-evident during the exorcism.

With regards to this thread, is the claim imply that ley lines exist, or that you can demonstrate something that relies on ley lines to work? If the former, that would probably be eligible. If the latter, it would only be accepted if the thing you claim to demonstrate is paranormal in itself, with the ley lines just being your explanation and therefore irrelevant to the challenge.

[Manopolus]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but abnormal is not paranormal, so just because something isn't normal doesn't mean it's paranormal.

[likelystory]

I really think Scientists believe they can duplicate paranormal actions in the Lab........ pipe dreaming for sure lol

[likelystory]

Scientists can't even build a second Earth to orbit the Sun,so how can Scientists possibly believe they could replicate the paranormal.....

My point is Scientists can't achieve ''great wonders'' with their limited knowledge of Natural Science,So why even bother with the paranormal?. Best they become masters of natural stuff first ;)

[Idiot Wind]

Sure... why do a simple check of whether a man holding a forked stick can locate underground water, or precious metals or even explosives, if they can't even construct a perfect replica of an entire planet...

[erlando]

Scientists can't even build a second Earth to orbit the Sun,so how can Scientists possibly believe they could replicate the paranormal.....

Wut? :confused:

[likelystory]

So debunking a water boy debunks paranormal spirits who choose their ''protocol'' for appearing and disappearing at will?

[lionking]

Is there a full moon tonight? I haven't looked.

[likelystory]

Wut? :confused:

Can you detect paranormal spirits? Can spirits fool the best scientific instrutments without being detected?

This should stop all further debating...... if men can fool men with ''stage props'' then how much more could spirits fool the world's best scientific minds with their powers?

[not daSkeptic]

... if men can fool men with ''stage props'' then how much more could spirits fool the world's best scientific minds with their powers?

Your question is meaningless until it is established that A) spirits exist, B) they possess "powers" which can affect our world, and C) they have a compulsion to use said powers.

[Hawk one]

This should stop all further debating...... if men can fool men with ''stage props'' then how much more could spirits fool the world's best scientific minds with their powers?

Ahh, the classic "spirits only show up to those who believe in them" excuse, always the out for anyone who isn't actually interested in proving their existance.

Because if this excuse had been true, that basically means that spirits apparently are quite mean little things, because first they get someone to listen to them, being guided by them, and so on, but they will only make themselves heard in settings where it's possible to cheat; and then when someone tries to prove their existance in a setting where it's not possible to cheat, they just keep silent to make the believers look like sad, delusional fools, or frauds.

The conclusion: If spirits exist, they are complete jerks. And if they are complete jerks, why should we bother with them?

----------------------------------------

Or, you know, they simply don't exist, and people have delusions about them existing. Which proper testing that takes away the element of cheating will then reveal every single time.

[likelystory]

Ahh, the classic "spirits only show up to those who believe in them" excuse, always the out for anyone who isn't actually interested in proving their existance.

Because if this excuse had been true, that basically means that spirits apparently are quite mean little things, because first they get someone to listen to them, being guided by them, and so on, but they will only make themselves heard in settings where it's possible to cheat; and then when someone tries to prove their existance in a setting where it's not possible to cheat, they just keep silent to make the believers look like sad, delusional fools, or frauds.

The conclusion: If spirits exist, they are complete jerks. And if they are complete jerks, why should we bother with them?

----------------------------------------

Or, you know, they simply don't exist, and people have delusions about them existing. Which proper testing that takes away the element of cheating will then reveal every single time.

It's the Spirits who made themselves known to certain people. Yet you seem to believe Mankind are smarter than spirits,and also you believe debunking Sylvia Browne is proof of spirits not existing.There's fakers in all walks of life so please be open minded and don't grudge other people because you haven't seen or witnessed the paranormal.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Can you detect paranormal spirits? Can spirits fool the best scientific instrutments without being detected?

This should stop all further debating...... if men can fool men with ''stage props'' then how much more could spirits fool the world's best scientific minds with their powers?The spirits, like God and the invisible pink unicorn, have proven to be so effective in their ability to not be detected that they make themselves exactly the same as if they do not exist.

:i:

(Do we not have an invisible pink unicorn emoticon?)

[DevilsAdvocate]

It's the Spirits who made themselves known to certain people. Yet you seem to believe Mankind are smarter than spirits,and also you believe debunking Sylvia Browne is proof of spirits not existing.There's fakers in all walks of life so please be open minded and don't grudge other people because you haven't seen or witnessed the paranormal.But what do these spirits DO if they cannot be detected? If they make themselves known to certain people, but don't provide useful information or abilities to those certain people, then they provide no function different from the function provided by delusions. In fact, they would be indistinguishable from delusions. Without any evidence to the contrary, it would be most reasonable to assume that they are delusions.

[BirdyBuddy]

(Do we not have an invisible pink unicorn emoticon?)

Somewhere in here: ===>>>............<<<===

[Bill Thompson]

If the One Million Dollar Challenge is to demonstrate Paranormal then one must first define Normal.

That is a leap. How do you figure? Please, fill in the huge gap in your post.

How is defining paranomal based on a definition of normal?

I can see if you might be discussing "abnormal". But paranomal's definition leaves its root word far behind.

[DevilsAdvocate]

That is a leap. How do you figure? Please, fill in the huge gap in your post.pssst: roscoe has already moved on to the CTs and then prisonplanet. likelystory essentially raised a zombie thread. ;)

[not daSkeptic]

... please be open minded ...

I love this statement because it's almost exclusively used by people who are themselves in need of its advice.

[Ron_Tomkins]

If the One Million Dollar Challenge is to demonstrate Paranormal then one must first define Normal. Let me speculate a little here.

If (what a great way to start a sentence) as some have suggested the human being has hidden inherent powers that have been suppressed and someone acquires the ability to unlock these powers and demonstrates these powers satisfactorily, will the One Million Dollar Challenge be rendered null and void because these are powers now demonstrated but previously unrecognised and are now Normal to the human condition and not Para-Normal?

Will New Science be Paranormal?

Wikipedia describes Paranormal as:

(My emphasis)

If the Million Dollar Challenge defines the demonstration of so-called Paranormal demonstration in terms of a scientific experiment then it is no longer paranormal under this definition.

It's a little like the maxim:

"Treason doth never prosper, for if it prosper none dare call it treason"

You're wasting your time.

Playing with semantics and rhetorics isn't getting you any closer to getting a Million Dollars and making us all skeptics eat our words.

[theprestige]

As a former Network Engineer I have spent a lifetime thinking logicically (you cannot do the job if you don't have the ability to do this).
As a lifelong IT professional, let me first say that I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that thinking logically is an important part of doing a good job as a network engineer.

But let me also say--and I mean no offense by this--that I have worked with many an illogical, incompetent "network engineer", whose title had nothing to do with their competence or capability for rational thought. So you claiming to be a network engineer means absolutely nothing to me. Indeed, to the extent that you take ley lines seriously, I'm inclined to think that if you were ever a network engineer, you were likely a bad one.

[Landrew]

I'll tell you one thing, the $1 million challenge will never be claimed, because it's a little bit rigged. I mean that in a nice way, because if something "paranormal" is demonstrated to be real, it immediately becomes "normal."

Supernatural becomes natural, and metaphysical becomes physical.

There's no way Randi will ever lose his million.

[wardenclyffe]

But if JREF agrees before the test that it's paranormal (and therefore worthy of being tested), then it doesn't matter what happens after the test. If it was paranormal before the test, and it's proven, then it wins the million bucks. Textbooks are rewritten to say whatever phenomenon it is is now natural, but whoever proved it is counting the money they won. That's how it works.

Ward

[Czarcasm]

I'll tell you one thing, the $1 million challenge will never be claimed, because it's a little bit rigged. I mean that in a nice way, because if something "paranormal" is demonstrated to be real, it immediately becomes "normal."

Supernatural becomes natural, and metaphysical becomes physical.

There's no way Randi will ever lose his million.Do you know what the difference is between clever and tedious, Landrew? It's research.
If you had bothered to do a little research, like maybe use the "search" function, you would have found out that your "clever" point has already been made, and dismissed for good reason, several dozen times before.

[NoZed Avenger]

I'll tell you one thing, the $1 million challenge will never be claimed, because it's a little bit rigged. I mean that in a nice way, because if something "paranormal" is demonstrated to be real, it immediately becomes "normal."

Supernatural becomes natural, and metaphysical becomes physical.

There's no way Randi will ever lose his million.

There have been at least a dozen threads on this issue.

Your conclusion does not follow from the Challenge rules.

[drkitten]

There have been at least a dozen threads on this issue.

Your conclusion does not follow from the Challenge rules.

Stronger than that. The conclusion is directly contradicted by the Challenge rules and the FAQ.

From the FAQ, question 2.2: "Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

[MattC]

Stronger than that. The conclusion is directly contradicted by the Challenge rules and the FAQ.

As if a Challenge hopeful would ever read those...

~ Matt

[Czarcasm]

From the FAQ, question 2.2: "Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."
In my humble opinion, this should be the only response when someone starts yet another thread on this subject, and then the thread should be locked.

[erlando]

In my humble opinion, this should be the only response when someone starts yet another thread on this subject, and then the thread should be locked.

Ahem (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5684880&postcount=2)..