The Spiritual Marriage - 567

[Iacchus]

Wow, what a coincidence, my 567th post! ... as corresponds to the "heavenly marriage."

1) The man's father -- or his masculine side.
2) The man's mother -- or his feminine side.

3) The woman's father -- or her masculine side.
4) The woman's mother -- or her feminine side.

5) The man himself -- or spiritual bridegroom.
6) The woman herserlf -- or spiritual bride.
7) The spiritual marriage itself ... "And the two shall become one flesh."

Now I know how much you people like to scoff, but the only thing you can really dispute is which of the "qualities" apply to the first six numbers. However, in order to illustrate the relationship between the masculine and the feminine, it's necessary to have these two qualities alternate, which I have done.

Therefore, the only thing left to dispute is whether I should place the qualities of the man before the qualities of the woman. And yet, according to the book of Genesis, Adam was born before Eve, and Eve was "born" of Adam. Thus suggesting the qualities of the man -- in the "spiritual sense" -- should be placed first.

In which case I would say everything seems to be in order here, and neither do I mean "arbitrarily."

[Iacchus]

The seven aspects of marriage can also be exended unto the following ...

8) The honeymoon -- lifting of the veil -- circumcision.
9) True intercourse -- profound impact of the truth.

10) Ecstasy -- climax -- spirtual release.
11) Spiritual union -- fertility -- androgeny.
12) Birth of a child -- the birth of "New Doctrine."

13) Woman complete in the man.
14) Man complete in the woman.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Wow, what a coincidence, my 567th post! ... as corresponds to the "heavenly marriage."


Do you just think you're going to skip your 666th post? :) I know what amazing coincidence I'm going to post about that...


And yet, according to the book of Genesis, Adam was born before Eve, and Eve was "born" of Adam.


Wasn't Phil Collins in Genesis?

[Dancing David]

Well I prefer the tree of life and the numbers and attributes are very different.
1 absolute
2 light
3 dark
4 order
5 chaos
6 beautey
7 passion
8 rational
9 changing
10 fixed
There is also a cute little diagram.

I had read in Magic in Theory and Practise that 210 represents the spiritual marriage. The two become one and loose thier identity! Also it is (2*3*5*7)

Batten down the hatches and clear the decks. Here comes the Spiritual Wedding Party, especialy beware the Groom's Table!

[Dancing David]

posted by the I-man
Therefore, the only thing left to dispute is whether I should place the qualities of the man before the qualities of the woman. And yet, according to the book of Genesis, Adam was born before Eve, and Eve was "born" of Adam. Thus suggesting the qualities of the man -- in the "spiritual sense" -- should be placed first.



In the kabbalah male and female are balanced exactly in god, dude you need to read more! God is neither male nor female but both.

Did you know that Lillith was Adam's first wife, before Eve? Where do you think the brides for Cain and Able came from, hmm?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi

Do you just think you're going to skip your 666th post? :) I know what amazing coincidence I'm going to post about that...Well, I might as well begin with Chapter 13, verse 18 (in base-twelve or, base-twenty four?), which thus coincides with today ... "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." - Revelation 13:18 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13)

Does anyone see what I'm trying to do here? Where 1 O'clock corresponds to 13:00 hours, January is also the 13th month (as it no doubt follows the 12th month), in which case it also applies to Chapter 13.

Wasn't Phil Collins in Genesis? Yeah, and so was Moses. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

Well I prefer the tree of life and the numbers and attributes are very different.
1 absolute
2 light
3 dark
4 order
5 chaos
6 beautey
7 passion
8 rational
9 changing
10 fixed
There is also a cute little diagram.

I had read in Magic in Theory and Practise that 210 represents the spiritual marriage. The two become one and loose thier identity! Also it is (2*3*5*7)All I'm attempting to do here is show that it is possible to derive a rating system based upon numbers, so long as you understand the relationship between those qualities/atrributes you wish to rate. And, depending how accurate it is, it may prove useful in allowing you to recognize certain patterns in things, not to mention their synchronicty. Whereas to the degree that you establish this, you then begin to understand that things just don't happen arbitrarily and, that there's no such thing as an accident.


Batten down the hatches and clear the decks. Here comes the Spiritual Wedding Party, especialy beware the Groom's Table! No doubt some left-over cultural appendage that I'm unfamiliar with?

[Cleopatra]

Again I see you use the number 14. Where does this come from? Do you follow a specific tradition or this is just a theory of your own.

You said :

All I'm attempting to do here is show that it is possible to derive a rating system based upon numbers, so long as you understand the relationship between those qualities/atrributes you wish to rate


I want to rate my professional life. Which numbers should I use? Can you post a pattern for me? Do you want any info my date of birth maybe? I am willing to provide that, let me know, please.:)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Dancing David

In the kabbalah male and female are balanced exactly in god, dude you need to read more! God is neither male nor female but both.Oh, the divine androgeny! (another name for Dionsyus by the way). And yet The Lord is often portrayed as the Bridegroom (5), and The Church (of Man) the Bride (6) ...


2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. - Revelation 21:2-3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+21)So there's obviously some sort of marital arrangement (7), between God and the Church.


Did you know that Lillith was Adam's first wife, before Eve? Where do you think the brides for Cain and Able came from, hmm? Actually I had heard that Lillith was God's mistress and, that Cain and Able had twin sisters.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Actually I had heard that Lillith was God's mistress and, that Cain and Able had twin sisters.


Do you know the symbolism of Lillith in Ptolemaic Astrology--which is the most perfect system of symbolism in antiquity? It's not a rhetorical question I am asking to save you from the lecture :p

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



Do you know the symbolism of Lillith in Ptolemaic Astrology--which is the most perfect system of symbolism in antiquity? It's not a rhetorical question I am asking to save you from the lecture :p

Could you post a link, I know about Astoreth and the owl's feet. I will google on Ptolomy! Are you sure it is cool a system as the tree of life?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Again I see you use the number 14. Where does this come from? Do you follow a specific tradition or this is just a theory of your own.Congradulations! This is post number 574! Which, would seem fitting for it represents the culmination or, completion of The Gerarai ... Rachel 14 x leah 41 = 574.

The Gerarai were the fourteen women of Athens who, in accord with the Athenian Basilinna (queen of Athens), celebrated in the worship of Dionysus during the Anthesteria (in late winter or early spring). Please refer to Chapter 4 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html) for more details ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html


You said :

I want to rate my professional life. Which numbers should I use? Can you post a pattern for me? Do you want any info my date of birth maybe? I am willing to provide that, let me know, please.:) Based upon your post here (4604th), the number 46 corresponds to Sybil (4) -- the woman's mother (4) -- and suggests you are a very willful person. And yet it's also through the woman's will (her dominant strength, also comparable to "intiuition") that all these wonderous works of the spirit are accomplished. In which case the number 4604 as a whole, corresponds to Judith (12) -- 14 x 328 + "12" = 4604 -- which signifies The Advent of the New Church, and the birth of New Doctrine. Comparable to The Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+12), who gives birth to the man-child which is taken up to God's throne.

As for rating your professional life, I don't typically do this, as it doesn't seem to work well on things involving chance, like gambling and playing the lottery and what not. Thus far everything seems to come down to the relationship between husband and wife or, God and the Church. However, if you provide me with some pertinent info (date of birth, state you were born, and/or now live, favorite color, favorite number, stuff like that), I'll see what I can do.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Do you know the symbolism of Lillith in Ptolemaic Astrology--which is the most perfect system of symbolism in antiquity? It's not a rhetorical question I am asking to save you from the lecture :p Actually I'm totally unfamiliar with this ;) ... The number 575 signifies the Queen of Athens by the way.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I want to rate my professional life. Which numbers should I use? Can you post a pattern for me? Do you want any info my date of birth maybe? I am willing to provide that, let me know, please.:)
Iaachus chose to use the number 4606, so I will do the same...

4606 is made up of a 46 & 06.

46 = 4 - 6 = -2, just drop the "-" and you get a 2.

1) Mercury
2) Venus
3) Earth
4) Mars
5) Jupiter
6) Saturn
7) Uranus
8) Neptune
9) Pluto
0) X

The number 2 is very good, that means you are the Goddess of Love, Venus.

I notice the first digit in 4606 is a 4 (wow!), that is the God of War, Mars.

You are both the Goddess of Love and the God(dess) of War, those are two conflicting attributes. A little bit of logical deduction, and I figure that you deal with this conflict by venting your anxieties in the form of smoking cigarettes (those are bad for your health, ya know!).

The final number is a 6, or The Roman God of Agriculture, Saturn. This is especially good, this means you enjoy civilization, and in combination with the God of War it could only tell me that you are a figure of authority. A lawyer perhaps?

Take 4606, add all the digits together (1 + 6 + 0 + 6) and you get 16. This is very significant:

16 = 4^2
16/4 = 4, therefore 4 * 4 (or 4^2) = 16.

That is very good symmetry.

You can prove the symmetry is very good, by this:
4606
= 4 & 6 & 0 & 6
= (2 + 2) & (3 + 3) & (0 + 0) & (3 + 3)

That is very very good symmetry, that is rare to find these days.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Wow, what a coincidence, my 567th post! ... as corresponds to the "heavenly marriage."

1) The man's father -- or his masculine side.
2) The man's mother -- or his feminine side.

3) The woman's father -- or her masculine side.
4) The woman's mother -- or her feminine side.

5) The man himself -- or spiritual bridegroom.
6) The woman herserlf -- or spiritual bride.
7) The spiritual marriage itself ... "And the two shall become one flesh."

Now I know how much you people like to scoff, but the only thing you can really dispute is which of the "qualities" apply to the first six numbers. However, in order to illustrate the relationship between the masculine and the feminine, it's necessary to have these two qualities alternate, which I have done.

Therefore, the only thing left to dispute is whether I should place the qualities of the man before the qualities of the woman. And yet, according to the book of Genesis, Adam was born before Eve, and Eve was "born" of Adam. Thus suggesting the qualities of the man -- in the "spiritual sense" -- should be placed first.

In which case I would say everything seems to be in order here, and neither do I mean "arbitrarily." I haven't the FOGGIEST idea what the heck you are on about here! You have produced all sorts of mystical waffle about numbers and stuff, but where the heck does "567" come into all this?

Or doesn't it matter? You are just letting your mind wander as you type?

:confused:

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Iaachus chose to use the number 4606, so I will do the same... Guess again ... it was 4604.


4606 is made up of a 46 & 06.

46 = 4 - 6 = -2, just drop the "-" and you get a 2.

1) Mercury
2) Venus
3) Earth
4) Mars
5) Jupiter
6) Saturn
7) Uranus
8) Neptune
9) Pluto
0) X

The number 2 is very good, that means you are the Goddess of Love, Venus.

I notice the first digit in 4606 is a 4 (wow!), that is the God of War, Mars.That's amazing!


You are both the Goddess of Love and the God(dess) of War, those are two conflicting attributes. A little bit of logical deduction, and I figure that you deal with this conflict by venting your anxieties in the form of smoking cigarettes (those are bad for your health, ya know!).Then again Aphrodite tended to hang out with Ares.


The final number is a 6, or The Roman God of Agriculture, Saturn. This is especially good, this means you enjoy civilization, and in combination with the God of War it could only tell me that you are a figure of authority. A lawyer perhaps?Yeah, we'll no doubt be in touch. ;)


Take 4606, add all the digits together (1 + 6 + 0 + 6) and you get 16. This is very significant:Guess again ... 1 + 6 + 0 + 6 = 13?

16 = 4^2
16/4 = 4, therefore 4 * 4 (or 4^2) = 16.

That is very good symmetry.

You can prove the symmetry is very good, by this:
4606
= 4 & 6 & 0 & 6
= (2 + 2) & (3 + 3) & (0 + 0) & (3 + 3)

That is very very good symmetry, that is rare to find these days. Now why is it that almost without fail, we tend to mock those things most which we don't understand?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep

I haven't the FOGGIEST idea what the heck you are on about here! You have produced all sorts of mystical waffle about numbers and stuff, but where the heck does "567" come into all this?

Or doesn't it matter? You are just letting your mind wander as you type?

:confused: You don't get it huh? ... Man (5) + Woman (6) + Marriage (7) = "The Marriage" (567).

[RussDill]

more useless stuff from Iacchus.

I'll tell you again Iacchus. Unless you can show otherwise, your dreams and visions have no special meaning beyond what you can think up on your own whatsoever. Applying the numbers the way you are brings about no special, previously unknown meaning. What have we learned by numbering these things? Nothing. Why are you listing man before woman? Is it because some ancient mythology did it that way? Why should you believe that? What about gay marriage, where does that fit in?

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Now why is it that almost without fail, we tend to mock those things most which we don't understand?

What makes you think he doesn't understand it?

I personally enjoy mocking cold readers (those that claim to speak to those that have crossed over) *because* I understand the process. Those that lie about their craft, manipulate people's emotions, all for profit or personal gain are truly sad individuals.

[Cleopatra]

Good morning Iacchus.

Thanks for replying to my e-mail and confirming that you are the author of the book indeed :)


Based upon your post here (4604th), the number 46 corresponds to Sybil (4) -- the woman's mother (4) -- and suggests you are a very willful person. And yet it's also through the woman's will (her dominant strength, also comparable to "intiuition") that all these wonderous works of the spirit are accomplished. In which case the number 4604 as a whole, corresponds to Judith (12) -- 14 x 328 + "12" = 4604 -- which signifies The Advent of the New Church, and the birth of New Doctrine. Comparable to The Woman in Revelation Chapter 12, who gives birth to the man-child which is taken up to God's throne.

Last night while I was posting here I was posting to a culinary forum too why we must use the number of the particular post in this forum and not the another number that belongs to the post to the other forum for example.

Which are you criteria in picking-up numbers?

As for rating your professional life, I don't typically do this, as it doesn't seem to work well on things involving chance, like gambling and playing the lottery and what not. Thus far everything seems to come down to the relationship between husband and wife or, God and the Church. However, if you provide me with some pertinent info (date of birth, state you were born, and/or now live, favorite color, favorite number, stuff like that), I'll see what I can do.

I am a lawyer my work doesn't have anything to do with chances and luck.

I was born on the 18th of May 1970 at 12:45 PM in Jerusalem/Israel.I live in Athens/Greece and my favorite color is red.


David I will post you a link for the Tetrabiblos of Ptolemy later when I will return home.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Which are you criteria in picking-up numbers?


The meaning of each number is "brought" to him in a dream or vision.

[Dancing David]

Cleo thanks! I did find this one by Ed the pathguy:Tetrabiblios (http://www.pathguy.com/tetrabib.htm) .
It looks to be quite a read and the author says that Ptlomey was sceptical of the use of astrology!

Iacchus:

No No and NO!

5=Chaos/the woman girt with sword
6=Beatuty/Balance and the dying god
7=Passion/Venus

567 is then more like a three way of a tryst of lesbians on the dying god!

567=HV(CH) or HOOHCH!

567=11+7=18or(CH)I/(CH)aI or life
or 1=8+9 the number of the moon.

addidtively 567=11/13=24=6
subtractively 567=1/1=0

;)

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well, I might as well begin with Chapter 13, verse 18 (in base-twelve or, base-twenty four?), which thus coincides with today ... "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." - Revelation 13:18 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13)

Does anyone see what I'm trying to do here? Where 1 O'clock corresponds to 13:00 hours, January is also the 13th month (as it no doubt follows the 12th month), in which case it also applies to Chapter 13.


*shrug*

Regardless, you will have a 666th post, and we all know what that means.

Your fancy numbers mean little, because, also from Revelation: "he deceived the inhabitants of the earth", so why should we even listen to what you say? Don't forget that part of Revelation...

Remember, January, is not just 1st and 13th month, etc., but also the 61st month, and note that that first 6 is part of the number of the Beast.

Note that in 567 (which has the second 6 from the number of the Beast!), 5+6+7 = 18 and 8 + 1 = 9, and also that in 61, 6 + 1 = 7. Note that 9 + 7 = 16, which has the third 6 from the number of the Beast!

Therefore I have proven that: January + Spiritual Marriage (567) = the Beast's messages, which should be avoided because they are trickery.




















:rolleyes:

[Dancing David]

Wat to go Tai! Now the Illuminati are gonna be all over us, we must stop revealing the Secrets of the Universe!

Must go, the black helicopter just arrived...

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You don't get it huh? ... Man (5) + Woman (6) + Marriage (7) = "The Marriage" (567). Are you kidding? Surely you must be...

Who and why are these particular numbers so assigned to such ... attributes? Because some unknown somebody felt like it thousands of years ago or something?

OK, here we go. I'm going to assign some attributes to these numbers and see what they come out as:

(5) The fool
(6) The fairy-tale
(7) The fiasco

Therefore "567" means the joining of the fool and a fairy-tale, leading to a fiasco. Yes?

Scoff if you will, but it's just as valid is anything YOU have concocted here, and it's way more recent so it MUST be better, surely!

Or else your stuff is just as much bunkum as mine... :)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Good morning Iacchus.

Thanks for replying to my e-mail and confirming that you are the author of the book indeed :)No problem, I guess?

However, I got the sneaky impression that you were getting prepared to take me to task over my whole appearance on the JREF Forums or something?


Last night while I was posting here I was posting to a culinary forum too why we must use the number of the particular post in this forum and not the another number that belongs to the post to the other forum for example.

Which are you criteria in picking-up numbers?I double checked and verified the post number through your profile link, if that's what you're asking? So yes, the post number I quoted was the actual post I was responding to.


I am a lawyer my work doesn't have anything to do with chances and luck.This is interesting, because when I said "willful" it usually has something to with arguing (as lawyers do?). Which, is exactly the qualities I ascribe to Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26) ...


I was born on the 18th of May 1970 at 12:45 PM in Jerusalem/Israel.I live in Athens/Greece and my favorite color is red. As for your birthdate, the 18th, it also corresponds to Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26), whereas May is the 5th month and 17th month (in base-twenty four), albeit it doesn't suggest much at this point, Sorry ...

However I find it intriguing that my reply to your post was my 574th which, was 14 x 41, and represented the culmination or completion of the 14 Athenian women, The Gerarai, in accord with the Queen of Athens ...


Originally posted by Iacchus

Congradulations! This is post number 574! Which, would seem fitting for it represents the culmination or, completion of The Gerarai ... Rachel 14 x leah 41 = 574.

The Gerarai were the fourteen women of Athens who, in accord with the Athenian Basilinna (queen of Athens), celebrated in the worship of Dionysus during the Anthesteria (in late winter or early spring). Please refer to Chapter 4 for more details ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.htmlNow you tell me, are you for real or, what's the deal here? Because I can assure you I had no idea that you lived in Athens! Whereas the whole thing suggests some sort ot afilliation with the Queen of Athens.

Also, the fact that you were born in Jerusalem, suggests an afilliation with the New Bride which, is the New Church (as relayed above) ...


Originally posted by Iacchus

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. - Revelation 21:2-3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+21)And, with respect to the number of your post, 4604, this is what I said ...


Originally posted by Iacchus

In which case the number 4604 as a whole, corresponds to Judith (12) -- 14 x 328 + "12" = 4604 -- which signifies The Advent of the New Church, and the birth of New Doctrine. Comparable to The Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+12), who gives birth to the man-child which is taken up to God's throne.And here are the actual verses that correspond ...

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. - Revelation Chapter 12:4-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+12) See any relation to the time of your birth here? 12:45 pm? Also, the dragon in question here is the color red which, may or may not have something to do with it being your favorite color?

So, this may not be exactly what you had in mind when you asked me to do this, but like I said, this is typically the sort of thing that tends to get illustrated... Perhaps because this is what I'm most farmiliar with?

But then again maybe this is even more pertinent? As you yourself said, The Bacchae was one of your favorite tragedies.

So let me ask you this, your first name isn't by any chance Ariadne or Arianna is it? Or, something beginning with "Ari?" Or how about Kari?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep

Scoff if you will, but it's just as valid is anything YOU have concocted here, and it's way more recent so it MUST be better, surely!

Or else your stuff is just as much bunkum as mine... :) Am afraid all you're really doing here is casting out accusations. In which case what I'm presenting here, is not the same thing as what you're presenting.

[c4ts]

I have read your posts and seen your avatar and I believe the best course of action is to go insane. Oasoiuusfdpobakj nval;kjvnsac uiohadsguewoq nmuieorqeohjewroiua sdanmvc nadsoosda uji osdaujiowqpads oipspoadpa sfdaslkjfhgghosajmcm aoiashujqyo!!! Uweoi wqujeioqw qdjw oiqddmocio sajhudisaois jd osalfakmndsalsm dxmaoxisa sjdsaomxaskx oasjiojds aoijqwoiewoio qwieuuqowfnk jadksjaxms akxlasklxxzkj asodji bryzlak!!!!

Ah, much better. Numerology makes perfect sense!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by c4ts
I have read your posts and seen your avatar and I believe the best course of action is to go insane. Oasoiuusfdpobakj nval;kjvnsac uiohadsguewoq nmuieorqeohjewroiua sdanmvc nadsoosda uji osdaujiowqpads oipspoadpa sfdaslkjfhgghosajmcm aoiashujqyo!!! Uweoi wqujeioqw qdjw oiqddmocio sajhudisaois jd osalfakmndsalsm dxmaoxisa sjdsaomxaskx oasjiojds aoijqwoiewoio qwieuuqowfnk jadksjaxms akxlasklxxzkj asodji bryzlak!!!!

Ah, much better. Numerology makes perfect sense! Numbers are just used -- or, are especially helpful -- in recognizing patterns.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Am afraid all you're really doing here is casting out accusations. In which case what I'm presenting here, is not the same thing as what you're presenting. No accusations at all. I have simply assigned my own "values" to some random digits, and then applied them to your "key" number and come up with a "reading". The words were obtained by randomly flicking through a thesaurus, so it's not like they were contrived or anything.

Of course, if I did it again NOW I'm sure I would come up with lots of other word/digit combinations, and thus many different "readings" that could be taken utterly in different ways. BUT you would not have known that if I hadn't told you, and the same goes for the numerology stuff you presented originally. Which proves my point - this is all a bunch of mumbo-jumbo with no underlying rationality at all.

Just personally, I think you are just jiving with us, aren't you!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep
No accusations at all. I have simply assigned my own "values" to some random digits, and then applied them to your "key" number and come up with a "reading". The words were obtained by randomly flicking through a thesaurus, so it's not like they were contrived or anything.

Of course, if I did it again NOW I'm sure I would come up with lots of other word/digit combinations, and thus many different "readings" that could be taken utterly in different ways. BUT you would not have known that if I hadn't told you, and the same goes for the numerology stuff you presented originally. Which proves my point - this is all a bunch of mumbo-jumbo with no underlying rationality at all.

Just personally, I think you are just jiving with us, aren't you! Are you at all familiar with Jung's collective unconscious, and the archetypes? These are how such things are made available to us if, we but find the means to listen.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RussDill

more useless stuff from Iacchus.

I'll tell you again Iacchus. Unless you can show otherwise, your dreams and visions have no special meaning beyond what you can think up on your own whatsoever. Applying the numbers the way you are brings about no special, previously unknown meaning. What have we learned by numbering these things? Nothing.Dreams and visions. Hmm ... Would suggest the possibility of a different realm now wouldn't it?


Why are you listing man before woman? Is it because some ancient mythology did it that way? Why should you believe that? What about gay marriage, where does that fit in? What are you suggesting there's something terribly wrong with me because I've based something upon a precedent which has been set?

[c4ts]

For more information on Ptolemy, read my sig.

[T'ai Chi]

Even more damning is the fact that 567 is so close, digit-wise, to 666. Surely this means something numerologically.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Guess again ... 1 + 6 + 0 + 6 = 13?
I was not using a Base 10 number system.

Perhaps the next time I use different bases, I'll write them as 1₅ + 4₅ for Base 5 or 4₇ * 9₃ for base 7 and 3...

Would that help?

Now why is it that almost without fail, we tend to mock those things most which we don't understand?
What would make you think that?

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Dreams and visions. Hmm ... Would suggest the possibility of a different realm now wouldn't it?


umm...no, why...all it suggests is we have an imagination. You have any evidence that shows that in dreams, we enter another realm? Until you can show that, your dreams and visions are nothing more than your imagination and make believe.


What are you suggesting there's something terribly wrong with me because I've based something upon a precedent which has been set?

I'm saying there is something wrong with your reasoning. Why should you accept something simply because it is tradition?

[El Greco]

Is there a number for the spiritual divorce ? Because a friend of mine will probably divorce soon and I think he might need it.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Even more damning is the fact that 567 is so close, digit-wise, to 666. Surely this means something numerologically. Close, yes. But it's also progressive. Whereas 666 isn't. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco
Is there a number for the spiritual divorce ? Because a friend of mine will probably divorce soon and I think he might need it. No need to worry because it probably wasn't "spiritual" in the first place. But then again what the heck do I know? These numbers are merely "representative" anyway.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Close, yes. But it's also progressive. Whereas 666 isn't. ;)

Ah but 567 is so much smaller, tinier, and insignificant than 666. In fact, 567 turns into 666, so any messages about the so-called Spiritual Marriage is really a message from the Beast.

5 + 6 + 7 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9.

Also, 6 + 6 + 6 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9.
(note that 9's are also 6's upside down, or disguised)

This is proof that 567 is really the number of the Beast in disguise, and is not progressive at all.

[Nyarlathotep]

Hey, I just discovered that Fox is the news network of eeeeevil.

If you arrange the alphabet and assign it numbers as follows

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
A B C D E F G H I
J K L M N O P Q R
S T U V W X Y Z

You notice that F, O and X each equal 6. Therefore Fox=666. News is 5,5,5,1. If you take that 1 and add it to each of the fives you get 666 again. Fox news is evil, evil I say.



Hey, is it any sillier than Iacchus' stuff?

OF course, posting screws up the way I have my numbers formatted, so you kind of have to count across.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
This is proof that 567 is really the number of the Beast in disguise, and is not progressive at all.

I posted it sometime ago, but this seems an appropriate place to dispel once more the myth that the number of the Beast is 666.

http://users.otenet.gr/~mic-mic/zoi201.jpg

[Iacchus]

Hmm ... I wonder what happened to Cleo? Her post was the only one worthy of a reply, and I'm still waiting for her to get back to me?

Of course she did mention in her e-mail something about frying me alive, and I responded by saying I would pretend I never knew her -- or, extend her that "courtesy."

So maybe I shouldn't be surprised?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hmm ... I wonder what happened to Cleo? Her post was the only one worthy of a reply, and I'm still waiting for her to get back to me?



That just shows what a poseur you are, my responses were worthy of your attention. But again you just shine the flashlight of enlightenment in your face.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Are you at all familiar with Jung's collective unconscious, and the archetypes? These are how such things are made available to us if, we but find the means to listen. I have a passing acquaintance with it, yes. And I find no particular relevance in this context, and YOU are STILL simply talking rot.

Can I be clearer than that?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep

I have a passing acquaintance with it, yes. And I find no particular relevance in this context, and YOU are STILL simply talking rot.

Can I be clearer than that? The thing that makes it relevant is that it's original and not contrived which, is really about all I have to say. So, unless you're even willing to consider the possibility, then I guess there's not much point in arguing about it now is there?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
The thing that makes it relevant is that it's original and not contrived which, is really about all I have to say. So, unless you're even willing to consider the possibility, then I guess there's not much point in arguing about it now is there? It's just as contrived as throwing a couple of dice, or using a Magic 8-ball. That is, it's twaddle. Nothing to do with Jung's collective unconcious at all. And it's hardly original either - you see the same sort thing in the back of all the well-worn weekly magazines in the dentist's waiting room.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

Hey, I just discovered that Fox is the news network of eeeeevil.

If you arrange the alphabet and assign it numbers as follows

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
A B C D E F G H I
J K L M N O P Q R
S T U V W X Y Z

You notice that F, O and X each equal 6. Therefore Fox=666. News is 5,5,5,1. If you take that 1 and add it to each of the fives you get 666 again. Fox news is evil, evil I say.

Hey, is it any sillier than Iacchus' stuff?

OF course, posting screws up the way I have my numbers formatted, so you kind of have to count across. Hmm ... Could be. In that foxes are clever, as would be the false prophet. And what do you think about the News Media in general? Which is anything "but" current in its exploitation of the News. And what pray tell do false prophets do?... But exploit the daily events of the news.

I mean what is there, if anything, about the News Media which is real?

[Agammamon]

Has anyone actually figured out what this Iacchus guy is talking about? Every post I've looked at starts off with some claim of revelation/coincidence followed by an (apparently) random string of numbers and phrases that don't really seem to correspond to what (little) sense the opening post has.

[Cleopatra]

Good evening Iacchus.

Thank you for your detailed reply I needed some time to think about your post and to do a brief research. I have been practicing Astrology for years and I have spent time studying all the relative schools that applied mathematical symbolism, from the Pythagoreans to the Rosicrucians.All of them claimed influencies from the Dionysiac rituals so I needed to have a look to see any relevance of your book with them. I needed some time to read it and see if I can catch where are you coming from.

I tried really hard but I failed to find a coherence in your theory not to mention that the circle of 14 that you keep using doesn't fit with anything I know and it confuses me.

Originally posted by Iacchus
However, I got the sneaky impression that you were getting prepared to take me to task over my whole appearance on the JREF Forums or something?

Nothing sneaky or mysterious. Your book is on line and somebody could have made use of it and come here to post only to mock you.

This is interesting, because when I said "willful" it usually has something to with arguing (as lawyers do?). Which, is exactly the qualities I ascribe to Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26) ...

Somebody doesn't need to read more than a couple of posts of mine to realize that I enjoy arguing in a rather willful way :)


However I find it intriguing that my reply to your post was my 574th which, was 14 x 41, and represented the culmination or completion of the 14 Athenian women, The Gerarai, in accord with the Queen of Athens ...


Now you tell me, are you for real or, what's the deal here? Because I can assure you I had no idea that you lived in Athens! Whereas the whole thing suggests some sort ot afilliation with the Queen of Athens.

You didn't need to have an idea Iacchus, if you read below my avatar you can find out where I live : In the city of the Olympic Games 2004 :)

So, this may not be exactly what you had in mind when you asked me to do this, but like I said, this is typically the sort of thing that tends to get illustrated... Perhaps because this is what I'm most farmiliar with?

It seems to me that you try to fit your theory to the info you already have.

In order to check your theory I must have a pattern to follow and do it myself. I searched your book but I didn't find any explanation as to what somebody must do in order to profit from the knowledge you have to offer.

There must be a method. Which is yours? This is what I am trying to figure out.

But then again maybe this is even more pertinent? As you yourself said, The Bacchae was one of your favorite tragedies.

Because my PhD is about the perception of identity in antiquity and Bacchae was one of the texts I had to study extensively.I happen to like the poetry of Eurypides, it's not difficult to love something you spend time with.

So let me ask you this, your first name isn't by any chance Ariadne or Arianna is it? Or, something beginning with "Ari?" Or how about Kari?

No. I have two names one starts by V and the second by E and it's jewish.

Iacchus. Sorry for my silly question but what is the point of your book. What does it teach, how can somebody use it to improve his life?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Good evening Iacchus.

Thank you for your detailed reply I needed some time to think about your post and to do a brief research. I have been practicing Astrology for years and I have spent time studying all the relative schools that applied mathematical symbolism, from the Pythagoreans to the Rosicrucians.All of them claimed influencies from the Dionysiac rituals so I needed to have a look to see any relevance of your book with them. I needed some time to read it and see if I can catch where are you coming from. This is all very interesting, because I wasn't aware of this. In fact it would seem to suggest there's a good reason for my name being Dennis which, comes from Dionysus ... in that I should have a special knack for working with numbers and symbols as I do. ;)


I tried really hard but I failed to find a coherence in your theory not to mention that the circle of 14 that you keep using doesn't fit with anything I know and it confuses me.Haven't you read the part about the fourteen Athenian women -- the Gerarai -- in my book? ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html

Also, you might want to follow this link which describes the festivals of Anthesteria in ancient Greece, where the fourteen Gerarai were supposed to participate ... http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/JO-Anth.html


Nothing sneaky or mysterious. Your book is on line and somebody could have made use of it and come here to post only to mock you.And yet I distinctly remember you saying something about frying me alive. Unless of course I misunderstood?


Somebody doesn't need to read more than a couple of posts of mine to realize that I enjoy arguing in a rather willful way :)But I still based it upon your 4604th post which, happened to coincide with my description of Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26) ...


You didn't need to have an idea Iacchus, if you read below my avatar you can find out where I live : In the city of the Olympic Games 2004 :)Yes, but I was unaware of this.


It seems to me that you try to fit your theory to the info you already have. Most of the things I discover tend to pop up out of nowhere or, I don't realize what it is until after the fact. So like I said, I don't think it would work well with gambling and casinos and what not.


In order to check your theory I must have a pattern to follow and do it myself. I searched your book but I didn't find any explanation as to what somebody must do in order to profit from the knowledge you have to offer. I think one of the main things about the book is to get people to notice patterns and help them understand there's a spiritual "synchroncity" which lies beneath it all. And, that indeed there is no such thing as an accident. However very few people have taken it up and, it's not very well understood. While it's still kind of in its infancy, with not having been published and all (needs work in editing department as well).


There must be a method. Which is yours? This is what I am trying to figure out.I have definitely established something with the numbers here, which as I said begins in Chapter 4 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html) ...


Because my PhD is about the perception of identity in antiquity and Bacchae was one of the texts I had to study extensively.I happen to like the poetry of Eurypides, it's not difficult to love something you spend time with.All the more reason why you should take an interest in my work, if in fact it's legitimate? For indeed, aren't we speaking of the second coming of Dionysus here? (which isn't to say I'm Dionysus).


No. I have two names one starts by V and the second by E and it's jewish.All that I can gather here is that V is the 22nd letter and E is the 5th. However one thing that comes to mind is that there's 22 chapters in the book of Revelation and, that it also corresponds to Justine (8) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0403.html#62) -- 14 X 1 + "8" = 22 -- thus signifying the honeymoon or, circumcision (synonymous with removing the bridal veil).


Iacchus. Sorry for my silly question but what is the point of your book. What does it teach, how can somebody use it to improve his life? What does it teach? That God is alive and living and well. And hopefully it can become the means by which people can ascertain this for themselves.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Iacchus

Yes, but I was unaware of this.

Most of the things I discover tend to pop up out of nowhere or, I don't realize what it is until after the fact. So like I said, I don't think it would work well with gambling and casinos and what not.


I might point out here that the left and right brain work to a certain degree independant of each other, and in some people, more so than others. So even though you weren't aware that you were working on a problem, you may have been. Ever have something on the tip of the tounge, and can't remember it, but then later, at a time when you aren't even thinking about it, it suddenly comes to you?


I think one of the main things about the book is to get people to notice patterns and help them understand there's a spiritual "synchroncity" which lies beneath it all. And, that indeed there is no such thing as an accident. However very few people have taken it up and, it's not very well understood. While it's still kind of in its infancy, with not having been published and all (needs work in editing department as well).


You book relies on there being any form of truth behind visions. Pattern matching with those visions is secondardy.


All that I can gather here is that V is the 22nd letter and E is the 5th. However one thing that comes to mind is that there's 22 chapters in the book of Revelation and, that it also corresponds to Justine (8) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0403.html#62) -- 14 X 1 + "8" = 22 -- thus signifying the honeymoon or, circumcision (synonymous with removing the bridal veil).


I might point out that this would a) not work in any other language, and that b) the numbering of chapters came long after the bible was written

[Cleopatra]

Good evening Iacchus.

Do you still have the last e-mail I sent you, the one I was promising you to fry you alive? I ask because you must have missed the smilie I used after I made that... promise :)

It's a common joke of mine. That's all.

Originally posted by Iacchus

Haven't you read the part about the fourteen Athenian women -- the Gerarai -- in my book? ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html

Oh I have read it , actually I have read it many times. Why did you chose the Gerarai'. I think that you claim that the cult of Dionysus is related to the Jewish cult, why didn't you use the 14 tribes of Israel instead.

Also, you might want to follow this link which describes the festivals of Anthesteria in ancient Greece, where the fourteen Gerarai were supposed to participate ... http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/JO-Anth.html

Oh I do know a lot about Athesteria since some of the customs of the Greek Orthodox Church are almost identical to the Dionysiac Anthesteria.

Most of the things I discover tend to pop up out of nowhere or, I don't realize what it is until after the fact. So like I said, I don't think it would work well with gambling and casinos and what not.

The science of propabilities does a better job with the casinos and gambling ;)

I think one of the main things about the book is to get people to notice patterns and help them understand there's a spiritual "synchroncity" which lies beneath it all. And, that indeed there is no such thing as an accident. However very few people have taken it up and, it's not very well understood. While it's still kind of in its infancy, with not having been published and all (needs work in editing department as well).

Ok. Do you think that it's a coincidence that from all the people in the forum I am the one who is willing to discuss with you that I have a very good knowledge of the ancient Greek world.

I want to give it a try to use your system. Which post number shall I use?

All that I can gather here is that V is the 22nd letter and E is the 5th. However one thing that comes to mind is that there's 22 chapters in the book of Revelation and, that it also corresponds to Justine (8) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0403.html#62) -- 14 X 1 + "8" = 22 -- thus signifying the honeymoon or, circumcision (synonymous with removing the bridal veil).

No no this doesn't make sense. Circumcision has NOTHING to do with bridal customs and notions of virginity but as Russ Dill said if your system won't work with all the languages you have a problem.
That God is alive and living and well.

"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God"...

Hebrews 10,31.

[Iacchus]

Cleo,

To worship Dionysus is to partake in the marriage of the god, and is a means by which to develop our feminine side -- spiritually -- which, is what the fourteen Gerarai represent. In that sense it's not so much a matter of assigning a number to yourself, but rather understanding which aspect of the Gerarai resembles "you" the most -- possibly Sybil? (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26) -- and understanding what needs to be developed in the relationship from there. For example Sybil's number is 4 which, can be a highly "unruly" number, that is until properly understood within context of the "heavenly marriage," more specifically the Celestial Marriage, as represented by the number 32 (also Sybil's number).

The Celestial Marriage also represents the highest aspect of marriage, for which reason I believe God chose the Jewish Nation (in the most orthodox sense) to be his bride, in accord with Judah being the "4th son" of Israel (before the advent of Christianity). Have you seen the background picture of Hedy Lamarr on my website? This is what she's supposed to represent, as signified by number 43 -- in accord with the number 4-32 -- which, is the heavenly bride or "New Jerusalem," as she prepares to make her descent. Comparable to the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation 12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+12), which appears in the "43rd month" following the 42 months of prophecy by the Two Witnesses (10 + 01) in Chapter 11 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+11).

Now didn't you say you were born in Jerusalem? at 12:45 pm? ... as corresponds to Revelation 12:4-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+12). And what pray tell are you doing in Athens, feigning as the "Queen of Antiquity?" By the way, did you know that Marc Antony had the audacity to portray himself as Dionysus at one point?

Are you beginning to catch my drift? :)

[Iacchus]

Excerpt from Walter F. Otto's, Dionysus, Myth and Cult ...


The feminine aspect of his nature is also revealed in his manner of loving. His whole existence is illuminated and crowned by the love of women. Anacreaon's song to him already makes it clear how close Eros and Aphrodite are to him. In it the prayer for love's fulfillment begins with the words "O Lord, whose playfellows are the mighty Eros, and the dark-eyed nymphs and violet Aphrodite!" The goddess of love is called his consort, and she supposedly became the mother of the Charites in Orchomenus by him. Thus many of the nymphs with whom he revels become his mistresses and surprise him one day with a new-born infant boy.

However, he is far from being a wanton profligate, and even if he occasionally receives an epithet which sounds obscene to us, the high nobility of his spirit is revealed that much more in all representations of him, and the impression they give is emphasized even more by the way in which his actions are contrasted with those of the satyrs, of whose naked lust the god seems to take no notice. Indeed, the one thing which sets him off from all of the truly masculine gods, whose passions are cooled by transient moments of possession, is the fact that his love is ecstatic and binds him to the loved one forever. We see this at its best in the vase paintings. There is good reason for our calling Ariadne the chosen one, for it is quite remarkable how little the myth speaks of any other true love affair.

This should now prepare us for a proper understanding of the spirit of the love which dwells in the hearts of the women of Dionysus. There is nothing so foreign to the orgiastic dancers of the god as unrestrained erotic sensuality. If an occasional off-color scene shows up among the countless representations of the actions of Dionysus, the remaining scenes demonstrate in a most convincing manner that the maenads are characterized by a stateliness and a haughty aloofness, and their wildness has nothing to do with the lustful excitement found in the half-animal, half-human companions who whirl around them.

In the famous messenger speech of the Bacchae of Euripides, the modesty of the women in ecstasy is explicitly emphasized in the face of the malicious stories told about them. On vase paintings they brusquely wave off their forward lovers with torches and snakes. According to Nonnus, each has wound a snake around her body beneath her clothes to protect herself from the lustful desires of men even when she is asleep or defenseless. Their love is of a higher type. "The Bacchant pays no attention to the silenus who grabs at her in his lust; for the glances of the Bacchant sweep up high into the aether and yet are filled with the spirit of love."

[Cleopatra]

Hi Iacchus.

Yes I got your drift thank you. You have built a system to interpret a specific cult and the whole world and to accomplish that you use a series of rather arbitrary symbolisms.

Of course this is your right but if you ever publish your book you must be prepared to receive severe literary criticism my friend because many many of your symbols do not find any parallel in the ancient sources.

For example. I don't know why you claim that Cynthia is the Greek word for the moon.I do not know this meaning of the word. I don't know everything but just to be certain I searched TLG ( Thesaurus Linguae Greciae, the electronic program that has collected all the texts of the Greek Literature) and I have found only one reference to Cynthia Artemis, the Artemis from the mount Cynthos on the island of Delos where she was born.

And this is only one of the uncountable examples one can find in your book.

The famous 14 Gerarai. I checked the Corpus of the Inscription of the Ancient Agora where the Sacred Marriage of Dionysus with Basilina was taking place during the Anthesteria. We don't have recorded names of the Gerarai. Again your naming is arbitrary.

I repeat that you are entitled to have your theories but you cannot refer to your book to support your arguments.

There are many systems of symbolisms, some of them are complete and fascinating but if you dig deep in them you will find a boring truth studied and thoroughly examined and explained by social anthropology. Each of us can pick his favorite but symbols cannot replace arguments I am afraid.

As for Mark Anthony what did you expect from a Roman Peasant like him? You have no idea what I have suffered next to him... all I could do was to close my eyes and think of my beloved Caesar. If you don't believe me ask Charmion. :)

[sackett]

Shame! Shame, Queen of Aegypt! You have trained the mighty guns of a battleship on the piteous canoe of Iacchus, and blown it, and him (so we hope) entirely out of the water. Was this worthy of you?

But it was fun to watch.

[Suezoled]

Uriel. Raphael. Raguel. Michael. Zerachiel. Gabriel. Remiel.

Anyone recognize these fine gentlemen?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by sackett
Shame! Shame, Queen of Aegypt! You have trained the mighty guns of a battleship on the piteous canoe of Iacchus, and blown it, and him (so we hope) entirely out of the water. Was this worthy of you?

But it was fun to watch.

No no. I assure you that Iacchus has read many things, he is not an ignorant and he is not a troll. As I said to my first post in this thread his book is of high educational value for the students of Classical Studies. You need a whole Library to debunk his book!!! If I was a teacher of Classical Literature I would use his book to teach many interesting things.

His book is what Joshua calls " Bad Archaeology". Well, this is " Bad Classical Studies". ( Iacchus I hope you understand the term and you are not offended by my using it).

It's not possible to support his claims with references to the original texts because this is what they do in Classical Studies. For every claim you make you have to back it up with references to ancient texts. This is what makes Classical Studies a science and not a hobby.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


. . . this is " Bad Classical Studies". ( Iacchus I hope you understand the term and you are not offended by my using it).

Well, if he's not offended, then he's more philosopher than anyone could reasonably expect. A Stoic, I would say, of the slit-your-wrists-in-the-bath school.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Iacchus

... that it also corresponds to Justine (8) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0403.html#62) -- 14 X 1 + "8" = 22 -- thus signifying the honeymoon or, circumcision (synonymous with removing the bridal veil)...

Hmmm? Was I called? :p


Sue- apocryphal angels.

[Suezoled]

Sparkle: I figured you'd get it.

Enoch I, to be exact. A part of the bible that wasn't brought over to modern text. Kinda like Iaachus; just pick and choose what sounds good, ignore the rest and claim you're talking about everything.

Oh, and Sparkle is not getting married to anyone. She's too good for you or your gods Iaachus.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

No no. I assure you that Iacchus has read many things, he is not an ignorant and he is not a troll. As I said to my first post in this thread his book is of high educational value for the students of Classical Studies. You need a whole Library to debunk his book!!! If I was a teacher of Classical Literature I would use his book to teach many interesting things.Actually I've done very little research, except to back up those things which kind of fell into my lap so to speak.


His book is what Joshua calls " Bad Archaeology". Well, this is " Bad Classical Studies". ( Iacchus I hope you understand the term and you are not offended by my using it).Except that I have made it a point to get my facts straight. For example if you look up the name Cynthia in any book of baby's names, it says it's Greek in origin and means moon or, moon goddess. So, is it any wonder that Artemis, the moon goddess herself, is from mount Cynthos?


It's not possible to support his claims with references to the original texts because this is what they do in Classical Studies. For every claim you make you have to back it up with references to ancient texts. This is what makes Classical Studies a science and not a hobby. Yes, but with all this "study," how would you find the time to live the life that's worth writting about? And what exactly did the classical world of myth entail, if not that which was something worth writing about?

[Zep]

I think this says it all.
Iacchus: Actually I've done very little research, except to back up those things which kind of fell into my lap so to speak.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep
I think this says it all.
Well at least I can assure you the whole thing wasn't vicarious which, I'm afraid is about all you can expect from "too much" book study ... with all the snootiness to boot! ;)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well at least I can assure you the whole thing wasn't vicarious which, I'm afraid is about all you can expect from "too much" book study ... with all the snootiness to boot! ;) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zep
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Then how dangerous is a lot of knowledge? Knowledge is not wisdom!

[Zep]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Then how dangerous is a lot of knowledge? Knowledge is not wisdom! A lot of knowledge gives you the ability to know when you are making a fool of yourself. But that's the last thing you learn too.

Wisdom comes from using knowledge properly. The man who thinks he is wise but is without knowledge does not know he is but a prattling fool.

[Cleopatra]

Good morning Iacchus.

To my surprize you have started trolling so this is my last post to you in this thread.

Originally posted by Iacchus

Except that I have made it a point to get my facts straight. For example if you look up the name Cynthia in any book of baby's names, it says it's Greek in origin and means moon or, moon goddess. So, is it any wonder that Artemis, the moon goddess herself, is from mount Cynthos?

You are wrong. The Greek Moon Goddess is Selene and not Artemis. Cynthia is only one surname of Artemis. Artemis as every other Greek God has many surnames that connect him or her with a specific myth or liturgy. We have Artemis Orthia, Artemis Eilythiia, Artemis Mhlia etc etc etc.

[Zep]

Cleo, science is on your side too.

The element selenium, discovered in 1817, was named from the Greek word for moon (http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Se/hist.html).

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Good morning Iacchus.
To my surprize you have started trolling so this is my last post to you in this thread.Oh really? And I'm surprised that you're surprised. It's all about labels now isn't it? He who attaches the first label rules the debate, right? Well don't get too high up there in your loft, otherwise you'll have to lower yourself in order to respond ... well, thanks but no thanks.


You are wrong. The Greek Moon Goddess is Selene and not Artemis. Cynthia is only one surname of Artemis. Artemis as every other Greek God has many surnames that connect him or her with a specific myth or liturgy. We have Artemis Orthia, Artemis Eilythiia, Artemis Mhlia etc etc etc. So Cynthia is "not" Greek in origin and doesn't mean moon goddess, right? In fact this is exactly how I came across Artemis, by looking up the name Cindy (a book of babys names) which, is short for Cynthia.

This also confirmed it ... From Robert Graves', The Greek Myths ...

1. The Maiden of the Siver Bow, whom the Greeks enrolled in the Olympian family, was the youngest member of the Artemis Triad, "Artemis" being one more title of the Triple Moon-goddess; and had a right therefore to feed her hinds on trefoil, a symbol of trinity. Her silver bow stood for the new moon. Yet the Olympian Artemis was more than a Maiden. Elsewhere, at Ephesus, for instance, she was worshipped in her second person, as Nymph, an orgiastic Aphrodite with a male consort, and the date-palm, stag, and bee for her principal emblems. Her midwifery belongs, rather, to the Crone, as do her arrows of death; and the nine-year-old priestesses are a reminder that the moon's death number is three times three ... I don't know about you, but it sounds pretty convincing to me. Oh, and you might want to look up the name Diana, which is the Roman version of Artemis and also means "moon goddess."

[CWL]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I don't know about you, but it sounds pretty convincing to me. Oh, and you might want to look up the name Diana, which is the Roman version of Artemis and also means "moon goddess."
From here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/artemis.html):

The daughter of Leto and Zeus, and twin sister of Apollo. Artemis is the goddess of the wilderness, the hunt and wild animals, and fertility (she became a goddess of fertility and childbirth mainly in cities). She was often depicted with the crescent of the moon above her forehead and was sometimes identified with Selene (goddess of the moon).

"Identified with" indicates that the actual goddes of the moon was "Selene" and not "Artemis". The quote also explains where the popular belief that "Artemis" was the goddess of the mooon comes from.

Game, set, match Cleo.

BTW, although the roman godess Diana was indeed considered a moon goddess, "Diana" does not "mean moon goddess" like you claim. As stated here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/diana.html) her name is possibly derived from "diviana" ("the shining one").

Seriously Iacchus, is there somewhere you are getting your stuff from, or are you just deliberately making it up?

Ah well, happy trolling to you.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by CWL

From here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/artemis.html):

"Identified with" indicates that the actual goddes of the moon was "Selene" and not "Artemis". The quote also explains where the popular belief that "Artemis" was the goddess of the mooon comes from.

Game, set, match Cleo.

BTW, although the roman godess Diana was indeed considered a moon goddess, "Diana" does not "mean moon goddess" like you claim. As stated here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/diana.html) her name is possibly derived from "diviana" ("the shining one").

Seriously Iacchus, is there somewhere you are getting your stuff from, or are you just deliberately making it up?

Ah well, happy trolling to you. Give it up already!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Give it up already!

As I matter of fact I have given up on you...

... ever supporting your propositions with facts and evidence.

[Cleopatra]

I know that we can fall really low in a debate but getting in the position to comment on what Robert Graves thinks about Greek Mythology is too much.

The best on-line resource about the Greco-Roman world is The Perseus Project of Tufts University. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/)


This is the link for the results of the search of the name Cynthia (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062%3Aid%3Dcyn thia)

This is the link for the results of the search of the name Artemis Cynthia (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?target=en%2C0&collection=Perseus%3Acollection%3AGreco-Roman&lookup=artemis+cynthia&formentry=1&template=&searchText=&alts=1&extern=1&group=typecat&.cgifields=alts&.cgifields=group&.cgifields=extern&.cgifields=type)

This is the link for the results of the search of the name Artemis (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062&layout=&loc=artemis)


When you use Perseus' look-up took be careful with your spelling. It uses Greekenglish.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I know that we can fall really low in a debate but getting in the position to comment on what Robert Graves thinks about Greek Mythology is too much.Well, you with work with the resources you have available on hand. This I'm afraid is called life. To suggest otherwise would be hypocritical.


The best on-line resource about the Greco-Roman world is The Perseus Project of Tufts University. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/) And of course if I studied the whole thing in a "classical sense," maybe there would be no need to put together the bits and pieces -- and crumbs -- to try and make sense out of what was once a shatterred personal life.

And neither would there be the need to write about it here now would there?

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Iacchus
And of course if I studied the whole thing in a "classical sense," maybe there would be no need to put together the bits and pieces -- and crumbs -- to try and make sense

Make sense to whom, if I may ask ? Is there any person around here who can make any sense out of what you have been relentlessly lavishing upon us ?

Originally posted by Iacchus
out of what was once a shatterred personal life.

Once ?

Originally posted by Iacchus
And neither would there be the need to write about it here now would there?

I'll give you this one. Indeed, if you were making any sense there wouldn't be any need to write about it here.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

Make sense to whom, if I may ask ? Is there any person around here who can make any sense out of what you have been relentlessly lavishing upon us ?Do the Greek myths make any sense at all to you? It all seemed like a bunch of gobbledygook to me, that is until I began to study them.


Once ?

I'll give you this one. Indeed, if you were making any sense there wouldn't be any need to write about it here.Hmm ... Ignorance and arrogance ... Why is it that the two seem to go hand in hand?

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Do the Greek myths make any sense at all to you? It all seemed like a bunch of gobbledygook to me, that is until I began to study them.

In case you haven't noticed, I am also a Greek. In fact, Greek mythology was a favorite reading for me as a child and I have read volumes of it. Greek myths are exactly that: Myths that prove the existence of God as much as they prove the existence of Zeus, Ganymedes and Icarus.

But my question was different: Have you made any sense to even ONE person ?

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hmm ... Ignorance and arrogance ... Why is it that the two seem to go hand in hand?

I don't know, I'm not a qualified psychiatrist. If you want to analyze yourself you'd better talk to a good shrink.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

But my question was different: Have you made any sense to even ONE person ?Well, obviously not the ONE in question here. You know, the one who likes to generalize and make it look like everyone should think the way he does.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well, obviously not the ONE in question here. You know, the one who likes to generalize and make it look like everyone should think the way he does.

Yeah, well, as usual you evade the actual question. Just for a change, why don't you try to answer the way that everyone not as gifted as you would ?

Have you persuaded a single person from the many who have replied to your threads ? Does anyone actually think that your numbers have any hidden meaning ? Because, as far as I can see, even theists here don't find any meaning at all. Is everyone so blind and you are the only one who can see ?

I've been thinking about your comment about a previous "shatterred personal life" and maybe this could explain an emotional instability and a desperate, extreme effort to find a hidden meaning where there is none. It could also mean that we have been rather harsh to you. But it still doesn't justify your childish efforts to make people see things where there is nothing. One can only respect you if you also respect him. And you have grossly disrespected the logic of many people here.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

been thinking about your comment about a previous "shatterred personal life" and maybe this could explain an emotional instability and a desperate, extreme effort to find a hidden meaning where there is none. It could also mean that we have been rather harsh to you. But it still doesn't justify your childish efforts to make people see things where there is nothing. One can only respect you if you also respect him. And you have grossly disrespected the logic of many people here. But the truth is so much simpler than this. ;)

Sorry, I can't help it if people can't understand.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Iacchus
But the truth is so much simpler than this. ;)

If it's so darn simple, why don't you actually explain it?

I again feel compelled to refer to my second signature line. Good old Esaias Tegnér was right on the money!

[Cleopatra]

Now that we are through with the topic of the thread which is " The Spiritual Marriage -567" and as we demonstrated it doesn't work out of a subjective perception and arbitrary interpretation of Myths and Symbolisms we can have a general philosophical discussion about the necessity of studying the ancient sources, if this is what you want to discuss in this post because you change topic in each post of yours, Iacchus.

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well, you with work with the resources you have available on hand. This I'm afraid is called life. To suggest otherwise would be hypocritical.

My sources are rather extended, in fact there are whole libraries all over the world that support my claims which are rather elementary.I mean which was the deity of the Moon? Please.

I just posted this link for two reasons: 1. To let people know about this on-line resource ( given the opportunity) and 2. To have a reference to discuss.

You forgot to mention whether you dismiss this source and on what basis.
And of course if I studied the whole thing in a "classical sense," maybe there would be no need to put together the bits and pieces -- and crumbs -- to try and make sense out of what was once a shatterred personal life.

There are many ways to read something but there is only one acceptable way in studying it and examing it . Multiple readings are related to personal experiences, studies go beyond that.

And neither would there be the need to write about it here now would there?

I am afraid that I didn't get that.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by CWL

If it's so darn simple, why don't you actually explain it?

I again feel compelled to refer to my second signature line. Good old Esaias Tegnér was right on the money! The truth is as simple as understanding that we have a soul -- which, is something you nor anyone else on this board seems to understand -- and, that it's the Holy Spirit which guides us ... which indeed, is what accounts for the "synchronicity" of things.

So whether you wish to believe it or not, the problem is not mine.

[Iacchus]

Okay folks, this is one of my primary connections to Artemis, the moon goddess. While indeed, I think most people who haven't been "prejudiced" by their background, might be able to see the correlation here. Got it?

Excerpt from Chapter 6, Symbols (http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html) ...


The New Church in Heaven

15 This prompts the experience I had in the fall of 1986 (November?), which speaks of the New Church in heaven before it sets down on earth (as mentioned in Judith). And I had dream, where I was approached by a young woman who reminded me of my sister Cindy—her innocence. I was standing on a dirt road, near a field about ready to be plowed, and it was a gray evening. And she approached asking about God, I don't recall what, but I suggested she talk to the Father in Heaven and pointed straight up. Looking up at the same time, there it was, a huge shiny full moon, and it was magnificent! When I looked down the young woman was gone. But I looked up again and there they were, two beautiful full moons talking to each other! Across her moon ran a thin dark cloud, or something to that effect.

16 And I was astounded, and thought surely it was a great sign, while all around me in every direction, stars began shooting up to heaven (perhaps a thousand?). This was equally impressive, and I knew these were other people being lifted up to heaven. This went on for three or four seconds and I suspected it would soon be my turn, but I wasn't sure when and, I was hesitant to follow. Looking to where the young woman first stood (to my left), there appeared another woman, and on her head she wore a globe, looking similar to an outdoor light fixture and appearing like a moon. And there was gas swirling around inside, as she "tried" igniting it. A vivid reflection of her indecision, which was a reflection of mine! And I said to myself, "I guess it's my turn," and took a "little hop" and shot up like the rest.

17 In only an instant I was in a large auditorium with a large group of people. I sat in the middle of the front row, and up on stage were two or three people, preparing to give a demonstration. (I'm reminded of the demonstrations Swedenborg speaks of in his writings.) But sensing this had something to do with me, specifically, I couldn't sit still. I squirmed in my chair for a moment or two, as I tried to let things proceed, but I couldn't settle down. I don't recall excusing myself, but a moment later I was wide awake in bed.

18 After gaining insight into this several years later, I realized it was preliminary to The Advent of the New Church on earth, that indeed it was the New Church becoming manifest in heaven. And so applies to Revelation 12:1: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." And as Swedenborg says in The Apocalypse Revealed, the new church in heaven is expressly implied here—by the moon under her feet! There's also the crown of twelve stars, which suggests something similar to the stars in my dream. Indeed all the elements are here.

19 I also said the young woman reminded me of my sister, which is significant for Cindy comes from Artemis, the moon goddess! And virgin! (so correlating with this woman's innocence). And this was a couple of years before I made the connection!

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yeah, and so was Moses. ;)

There are a lot of characters in Genesis, but Moses doesn't come along until the beginning of Exodus.

[Cleopatra]

Ok there is no way to persuade Iacchus and there is no way for Iacchus to persuade me. This is not necessarily bad I have a request for those that follow the thread.

I would be interested in discussing with somebody who feels that Iacchus' theories have a point. No I won't discuss with sock-puppets and don't try to fool my nose. I always smell them. :)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mycroft

There are a lot of characters in Genesis, but Moses doesn't come along until the beginning of Exodus. Okay I stand corrected here. From the thread, Moses or Phil Collins? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33244) ...

Originally posted by The idea
Who made a bigger contribution to Genesis?

You be the judge. This is what threw me, as it did everybody else who replied to the thread. I don't know if it was done deliberately or not or, if The Idea was aware of it him or herself? It was pretty funny though.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Iacchus
The truth is as simple as understanding that we have a soul -- which, is something you nor anyone else on this board seems to understand -- and, that it's the Holy Spirit which guides us ... which indeed, is what accounts for the "synchronicity" of things.

So whether you wish to believe it or not, the problem is not mine.

Why should I believe it? Because you say so?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by CWL

Why should I believe it? Because you say so? I wouldn't have you do that. Nor, would I have anyone else do it me. Irregardless, the anwer is as simple as this, "if" you can understand it. :)

Are you at all familiar with Emanuel Swedenborg? (http://www.swedenborg.com) (I thought I'd bring this up since you were Swedish.) This is where I've gotten many of my notions about God, the immortal soul, the Book of Revelations and what not. Swedenborg was a renowned scientist, before he became a Theologian, after receiving his calling from God through the visionary process he had discovered. In many ways I suppose he would be a comtemporary of a Carl Jung.

His most popular work was called Heaven and Hell, and is highly recommend if you're the least bit interested. Who knows, you might be able to pick it up cheap at a second-hand bookstore or something?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I would be interested in discussing with somebody who feels that Iacchus' theories have a point. No I won't discuss with sock-puppets and don't try to fool my nose. I always smell them. :) From the thread, You Want More Proof (2)? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33588) ...


Originally posted by Diogenes

The only reason I seem to be defending him, is that I am impressed with the volume and creativity ( and quality ( not accuracy or credibility )) of material in his book.. I'ts more of a personal diary ( much more than I care to know ) and I find it mildly entertaining. Also, it is quite articulate..

Another angle that I would have appreciated more about thirty years ago, is that a lot of the material in the book, appears to be a treasure trove of pussy bait. ( Can I say that? ) In that regard ,I guess we can call him a troll, but he may be casting his net a little too far, or definitely in the wrong river..

I think it's too easy to attack ( from a skeptical perspective ) Iacchus as a troll or woo woo, without giving him a little credit for creativity.. ( Not that I read the whole thing, but enough to give me this opinion.. I found it quite entertaining. Definitely far above the Yalel stuff, IMHO.... ) From the thread, What is Intelligent Design? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34454&pagenumber=2) ...


Originally posted by Phil

This is a little of the topic for the thread, and I apologize to all, but I was skimming through the website you linked to, Iacchus. I'm assuming you're Dennis Hamilton IRL. If so, something struck as I was reading, and forgive me if this is totally off base. As I said, I haven't had a chance to read the material thoroughly, but I read enough to get certain impressions. Are you simply drawing a parallel to your life and that of Christ or Dionysus, or do you actually think you are the second coming?

If it's the former, I applaud your imagination. If it's the latter, you have other issues than debating ID with us with which to contend.

Please. I mean no offense by this, and I've been known to be thick about things before, but could you address briefly what you're getting at with the website? Well I'm not sure how much this helps, but it would seem a couple of people have at least got the general idea here.

[Cleopatra]

As someone who has read the whole of your book I got very well what you wanted to do. Are you willing to accept though that it's nothing but a personal account with personal symbolisms that cannot be used by anybody else?

I don't have any problem with your beliefs as long as you don't bring them as arguments in various discussions because this is what you do Iacchus. As I stated in a previous message I don't think that you are ignorant or a troll but this doesn't mean that you can bring your unsupported theories that they cannot stand the slightest of serious literary criticism as arguments.

Got it?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
As someone who has read the whole of your book I got very well what you wanted to do. Are you willing to accept though that it's nothing but a personal account with personal symbolisms that cannot be used by anybody else?Why would anyone bother to read The Odyssey then?


I don't have any problem with your beliefs as long as you don't bring them as arguments in various discussions because this is what you do Iacchus. As I stated in a previous message I don't think that you are ignorant or a troll but this doesn't mean that you can bring your unsupported theories that they cannot stand the slightest of serious literary criticism as arguments.

Got it? I never said I couldn't stand to be corrected but, if that means discounting the very experience which, is far more valuable than anything that might be gleened through a history book, then yes, I can feign to be completely unresponsive about it and not tell you what you want to hear.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Why would anyone bother to read The Odyssey then?

For many reasons one should bother to read The Odyssey: It worths reading for its high artistic value, for its originality and the beauty of its language, for the vidid images that the imagination of the poet has created but you can also read it in order to see how the people of the 8th ce BC perceived the known world,human relationships, nature and strange natural phaenomena that they couldn't explain. It's also a good source to learn what the people of the 8th ce B.C thought about their own history since the poet describes events that took place at least two centruries earlier than his time.

BTW. In order to be in the position to ponder about those things Iacchus some people spent time to examine, to translate, to do things that you seem to dismiss and despise. You know about Odyssey because some people did what you ridiculed in a previous post of yours. They worked on the text without interfering in it and without distorting it in order to fit their preconceived idea of the world. So, don't dismiss the classical studies that easily.

One has a good reason to read your book too. It's interesting to see the way the myths inspired you, it's interesting to see how your perceive the world and its symbols.It's an interesting approach but many times while reading it I kept wondering if you would write the same things if you haven't such a twisted image of what happened in antiquity. Also, I can't help but wondering what would happen if your sister's name wasn't Cindy but Esther.

I never said I couldn't stand to be corrected but, if that means discounting the very experience which, is far more valuable than anything that might be gleened through a history book, then yes, I can feign to be completely unresponsive about it and not tell you what you want to hear.

You make a mistake many people do especially in the Politics Forum. Your mistake is called "historical anachronism". You think that the experiences of the present can explain the past. This is wrong.To speak in your own terms: Even if your life is a parallel to the life of Dionysus, you don't breath the same air Dionysus did( for the sake of the argument I do admit his existence as an historical figure--I can play that game if you wish), you don't stare same sun and you don't speak his language.

The reason why we encounter similar manifestations of religiosity in customes and traditions in different corners of the earth and in different ages has been already explained and it's not explained by mysterious cultural connections beytween civilizations.If you read my first post in this thread you might find it again. The truth is much simpler and exactly for this reason it's more impressive and it goes beyond any "intelligent design".

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

For many reasons one should bother to read The Odyssey: It worths reading for its high artistic value, for its originality and the beauty of its language, for the vidid images that the imagination of the poet has created but you can also read it in order to see how the people of the 8th ce BC perceived the known world,human relationships, nature and strange natural phaenomena that they couldn't explain. It's also a good source to learn what the people of the 8th ce B.C thought about their own history since the poet describes events that took place at least two centruries earlier than his time.Yes, and like you say, it's also a good reference source.


BTW. In order to be in the position to ponder about those things Iacchus some people spent time to examine, to translate, to do things that you seem to dismiss and despise. You know about Odyssey because some people did what you ridiculed in a previous post of yours. They worked on the text without interfering in it and without distorting it in order to fit their preconceived idea of the world. So, don't dismiss the classical studies that easily.And what good would they have been if they weren't based upon something original? Which is really the only problem I have here, for how do you determine what is original -- and hence "archetypal" -- if it's not based upon "original experience?" In fact I think this is exactly what the Greek myths do represent and why they are so useful ... because it allows us to pinpoint these very archetypes in our own lives.


One has a good reason to read your book too. It's interesting to see the way the myths inspired you, it's interesting to see how your perceive the world and its symbols.It's an interesting approach but many times while reading it I kept wondering if you would write the same things if you haven't such a twisted image of what happened in antiquity. Also, I can't help but wondering what would happen if your sister's name wasn't Cindy but Esther.While all I did was connect the dots really, and rely on those things which "appeared" to be coincidental, from which I derived certain patterns. Honestly, with exception to Dionysus, I don't go into any great depth with the other myths, except in how they relate to Dionysus. Perhaps this is the twisted image you perceive? At the time I was just beginning to discover the many connections to Dionysus when writing the book, and didn't have time to make all the associations with the other gods. However, I will say that to the degree that I work with them and understand them, I only appreciate them more.

As for my sister not being named Cindy (short for Cynthia), maybe I wouldn't be writing the book? ... Or, possibly there could have another woman named Cindy that I had a close affinity to?


You make a mistake many people do especially in the Politics Forum. Your mistake is called "historical anachronism". You think that the experiences of the present can explain the past. This is wrong.To speak in your own terms: Even if your life is a parallel to the life of Dionysus, you don't breath the same air Dionysus did( for the sake of the argument I do admit his existence as an historical figure--I can play that game if you wish), you don't stare same sun and you don't speak his language. But you have to understand that I didn't write the book expresssly about the gods of antiquity, nor even Dionysus, but rather to bring a certain aspect from antiquity to elucidate the present. And this I think works well with Dionysus. If I've interpreted the past incorrectly that's my mistake. However, that was not my intent.


The reason why we encounter similar manifestations of religiosity in customes and traditions in different corners of the earth and in different ages has been already explained and it's not explained by mysterious cultural connections beytween civilizations.If you read my first post in this thread you might find it again. The truth is much simpler and exactly for this reason it's more impressive and it goes beyond any "intelligent design". I believe it's all part of the collective unconscious, and attributable to "synchronicty."

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, and like you say, it's also a good reference source.

It's a good reference to get an idea about the world of the specific era. We don't resort to Odyssey for proof that the Cyclops existed for example. We know that Odyssey is a nicely said myth and as every myth reveals some truths about the society that it created it. Of course there are always those who search still for the entrance of Hades, the one Odysseas took to visit the underworld. Pity because Homer didn't care to show us that Hades was accessible but that Ulysses, a man, dealt with the shadows of the dead. Epic poetry was used to instruct about the values of the anthropocentric world.
Odyssey is my favorite book BTW and I am always in love with Ulysses.I still hope to meet somebody like him. :)


And what good would they have been if they weren't based upon something original? Which is really the only problem I have here, for how do you determine what is original -- and hence "archetypal" -- if it's not based upon "original experience?" In fact I think this is exactly what the Greek myths do represent and why they are so useful ... because it allows us to pinpoint these very archetypes in our own lives.

Myths especially the Greek ones reflect nothing but endless conflicts for power. Hercules from Argos married the Nymph X from Olympia. Now we know for sure that such mythical narrations hide real local conflicts that took place and they ended up with a merger -- a marriage-- of two communities.

I was born in a new country.Israel. I have followed its politics at a close distance, it's amazing and rather horryfying to observe how modern myths are created.

So, the archetypal exists but it has to give us info about social structures and experiences to the level of the society. Also, knowing how those texts arrived to us Iacchus I am not sure if we can talk about "original experience". But I think that you can detect some original experience to the Orphic Hymns, to the love poems or to the epigrams on the tombstones. They reflect genuine feelings like love and the pain of a loss. Those feelings are more real than any metaphysical experience.

While all I did was connect the dots really, and rely on those things which "appeared" to be coincidental, from which I derived certain patterns. Honestly, with exception to Dionysus, I don't go into any great depth with the other myths, except in how they relate to Dionysus. Perhaps this is the twisted image you perceive? At the time I was just beginning to discover the many connections to Dionysus when writing the book, and didn't have time to make all the associations with the other gods. However, I will say that to the degree that I work with them and understand them, I only appreciate them more.

There is an example I quote by memory I can't find it in your book right now but I think that I have read somewhere that the architects of the Temple of Solomon were priests of Dionysus, correct me if I don't remember it well. Where does this come from? Also, all the info about the Star of David, where do they come from. This is what I called twisted image of the antiquity and these are only two examples.

Read Fraser. Please do. Fraser explains why the myth of Dionysus is so popular and so common. It was popular among the Christians too but until the 4th ce and you know why? Because then they decided to introduce the dogna of the triad that changed everything in Christianity.

The connections do exist and we all see them. They make us feel admiration about the way the human brain works. :)

As for my sister not being named Cindy (short for Cynthia), maybe I wouldn't be writing the book? ... Or, possibly there could have another woman named Cindy that I had a close affinity to?

Or maybe you would find a way to connect her with Dionysus regardless what her name would be? :)

But you have to understand that I didn't write the book expresssly about the gods of antiquity, nor even Dionysus, but rather to bring a certain aspect from antiquity to elucidate the present. And this I think works well with Dionysus. If I've interpreted the past incorrectly that's my mistake. However, that was not my intent.[/quote

I know and I don't blame you for that but allow me to remark that It would be interesting if other people could use the same pattern to elucidate their present. I read the book I didn't find anything but maybe it was my fault. BTW and if I may ask do you have any responses by readers? What do people that read it think?
[quote]I believe it's all part of the collective unconscious, and attributable to "synchronicty."

Oh that. The collective unconscious. That's a tricky term. I don't know.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Oh that. The collective unconscious. That's a tricky term. I don't know. Let me first say Bravo, Cleopatra...you have taken a folk tune and heard a symphony. I started to read the book, but gave up. It is to your credit entirely that I am considering giving it another try.

now....the collective unconscious. Please, Iacchus, don't refer to the collective unconscious as if it is established fact, or even a popular idea within psychology. Just as Cleopatra says that myths can tell us a great deal about the beliefs of a culture (rather than, say, evidence of cyclops), Jung's writings tell us a great deal more about Jung and his time than about human truth. The Collective Unconscious is a really neat idea....with absolutely no support whatsoever. It is much more important to literature than it is to psychology.

So, yeah, maybe it is a cool idea...but as Cleopatra said, it is a statement of your beliefs, not ammunition in arguments.

Again, thanks to Cleopatra for seeing much more than I did in these writings.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

It's a good reference to get an idea about the world of the specific era. We don't resort to Odyssey for proof that the Cyclops existed for example. We know that Odyssey is a nicely said myth and as every myth reveals some truths about the society that it created it. Of course there are always those who search still for the entrance of Hades, the one Odysseas took to visit the underworld. Pity because Homer didn't care to show us that Hades was accessible but that Ulysses, a man, dealt with the shadows of the dead. Epic poetry was used to instruct about the values of the anthropocentric world.The fact of the matter is that the Greek pantheon did exist, with its whole myriad of mythological creatures as well, but more so in the mythical or, "spiritual realm" (as spirits). So, even though we may not have been able to see them ourselves, it took such visionaries as Homer to detail their lives and intertwine them with the acts of humans on earth, because such a relationship does exist. So this is what I think the Greek myths represent, and in that sense they give us a fairly accurate account of the supernatural world.


Odyssey is my favorite book BTW and I am always in love with Ulysses.I still hope to meet somebody like him. :)He was no doubt a hero, both wily and resourceful. But, to spend an eternity away from his beloved Penelope? I guess that's why they call it tragedy? ...


Myths especially the Greek ones reflect nothing but endless conflicts for power. Hercules from Argos married the Nymph X from Olympia. Now we know for sure that such mythical narrations hide real local conflicts that took place and they ended up with a merger -- a marriage-- of two communities.Such is the nature of the human race ... While there's no doubt these represented spiritual conflicts as well.


I was born in a new country.Israel. I have followed its politics at a close distance, it's amazing and rather horryfying to observe how modern myths are created.How so? Do you mean like military myths?


So, the archetypal exists but it has to give us info about social structures and experiences to the level of the society. Also, knowing how those texts arrived to us Iacchus I am not sure if we can talk about "original experience". But I think that you can detect some original experience to the Orphic Hymns, to the love poems or to the epigrams on the tombstones. They reflect genuine feelings like love and the pain of a loss. Those feelings are more real than any metaphysical experience.But, to understand the metaphysics aspect, is to understand that the gods and goddesses do exist.


There is an example I quote by memory I can't find it in your book right now but I think that I have read somewhere that the architects of the Temple of Solomon were priests of Dionysus, correct me if I don't remember it well. Where does this come from? Also, all the info about the Star of David, where do they come from. This is what I called twisted image of the antiquity and these are only two examples.Hiram Abiff was the Grand Master of the Dionysian Architects and was consigned to build the Temple of Solomon. While it mentions him by name in the Bible I believe. He was also a Mason and considered the first martyr of Masonic lore. http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#masonic (Masonic part continues to the end of the page.)


Read Fraser. Please do. Fraser explains why the myth of Dionysus is so popular and so common. It was popular among the Christians too but until the 4th ce and you know why? Because then they decided to introduce the dogna of the triad that changed everything in Christianity. If I get a chance maybe I will, but lately I've had little to do with the Greek myths or, even my book, except to come to the JREF Forums and argue about it. ;)


The connections do exist and we all see them. They make us feel admiration about the way the human brain works. :)No doubt. But how can they possibly exist without some medium (the collective unconscious) which ties them together?


Or maybe you would find a way to connect her with Dionysus regardless what her name would be? :)In case you hadn't noticed I have a whole slew of names at my disposal. ;)


I know and I don't blame you for that but allow me to remark that It would be interesting if other people could use the same pattern to elucidate their present. I don't see why not. Of course you would have to be "initiated" into the idea of what the Holy Marriage meant, and take an interest in the significance of the names and numbers, I guess?


I read the book I didn't find anything but maybe it was my fault. BTW and if I may ask do you have any responses by readers? What do people that read it think?Actually I've had very few meaningful dialogues about it, but neither am I sure the Internet is the best medium for this, as most people don't tend to want to read long books over the Internet, unless of course you make it useful as a reference source which, I have to some to extent.


Oh that. The collective unconscious. That's a tricky term. I don't know. This is none other than the spiritual dimension and is where the gods hang out by the way.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Let me first say Bravo, Cleopatra...you have taken a folk tune and heard a symphony. I started to read the book, but gave up. It is to your credit entirely that I am considering giving it another try.

now....the collective unconscious. Please, Iacchus, don't refer to the collective unconscious as if it is established fact, or even a popular idea within psychology. Just as Cleopatra says that myths can tell us a great deal about the beliefs of a culture (rather than, say, evidence of cyclops), Jung's writings tell us a great deal more about Jung and his time than about human truth. The Collective Unconscious is a really neat idea....with absolutely no support whatsoever. It is much more important to literature than it is to psychology.

So, yeah, maybe it is a cool idea...but as Cleopatra said, it is a statement of your beliefs, not ammunition in arguments.

Again, thanks to Cleopatra for seeing much more than I did in these writings. If religion was true to its purpose it would teach us about the collective unconscious. And teach us more about "the mystery," instead of the history.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If religion was true to its purpose it would teach us about the collective unconscious. And teach us more about "the mystery," instead of the history. True..the collective unconscious deserves to be taught at religion or myth, rather than as science. It may well strike a chord with us, but it certainly does not tell us anything about the way we really work.

Mysteries are great, but I prefer ones that can be solved. A mystery that is meant to remain a mystery cannot help us understand ourselves.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

True..the collective unconscious deserves to be taught at religion or myth, rather than as science. It may well strike a chord with us, but it certainly does not tell us anything about the way we really work. Not so ...


Mysteries are great, but I prefer ones that can be solved. A mystery that is meant to remain a mystery cannot help us understand ourselves. So, have you taken a look at my signature line? If a spiritual reality does exist, then yes, it will (eventually) reveal the mysteries which lay behind it.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, have you taken a look at my signature line? If a spiritual reality does exist, then yes, it will (eventually) reveal the mysteries which lay behind it. yes...it is because of your sig that I felt the need to take issue with your treatment of the collective unconscious. It is one thing to use it as a literary device; it is quite another to pretend it is good science. Psychology is my science; the collective unconscious is part of its history, but not part of its present. If you build on the collective unconscious as your foundation, you build on quicksand, not bedrock.

Again, all this is irrelevant for the treatment of literature. But you, in your sig, make a claim that this is science--my science. No, sir, it is not. Let me repeat, so you may highlight it in blue again and disagree: It does not tell us anything about the way we really work.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
yes...it is because of your sig that I felt the need to take issue with your treatment of the collective unconscious. It is one thing to use it as a literary device; it is quite another to pretend it is good science. Psychology is my science; the collective unconscious is part of its history, but not part of its present. If you build on the collective unconscious as your foundation, you build on quicksand, not bedrock.

Again, all this is irrelevant for the treatment of literature. But you, in your sig, make a claim that this is science--my science. No, sir, it is not. Let me repeat, so you may highlight it in blue again and disagree: It does not tell us anything about the way we really work. I can see you have a great deal to learn here.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I can see you have a great deal to learn here.

Your claim is that visions bring truth. Evidence has been presented that visions not only don't contain any truth, but contain contridictory information. You haven't attempted to bring any proof of this to the table.

a) Your visions do not count as proof
b) There is nothing that he can learn from your visions

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I can see you have a great deal to learn here. I am always willing to learn, and will change my views if the evidence convinces me. Can you honestly state the same?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I am always willing to learn, and will change my views if the evidence convinces me. Can you honestly state the same? I had an interesting synchronistic experience that just came up in another thread, A universe without god (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34784&perpage=40&pagenumber=6) ...

Now I just got through posting to RussDill (above) and to Zero, and thought it would be fitting to include something about Dionysian energy and quantum physics (in response to my post to RussDill). Now just about the time that I was getting ready to post I noticed there were 229 posts in the thread, and mine would have been the 230th. So I thought I should also mention the 230 year period between the years 1757 and 1987 (see below); while I also realized 1987 was the year the book I was about to quote, Ecstasy - Understanding the Psychology of Joy, was published.

But unfortunately this guy "Donks" posted just before me -- and yet, at the same time (as shown). Now what's strange, is I just got through reading (the same book) about Dionysus arriving at his father's shrine on the back of a donkey. Hmm ... Very strange! I've included the 231st and 232nd posts below ...


231st post ...

Excerpt from Robert A. Johnson's, Ecstasy, Understanding the Psychology of Joy ...

Western civilization praises the orderly life. We have a healthy skepticism that insists "seeing is believing." Our world is built on thinking, logic, progress, and success, and within these limits we feel secure. But today even our scientists tell us that these limits are illusory. Quantum physics shows us "the dancing universe; the ceaseless flow of energy going through an infinite variety of patterns." This is the Dionysian energy, the dance of the Maenads, the power of life that flows through all of us and unites us with heaven and earth. - Published in the year 1987.Hmm ... the 230th post on this thread, just as there were 230 Years (http://www.dionysus.org/x0201.html) between the years 1757 and 1987 which, were the beginnings of the Swedenborg Era (http://www.swedenborg.com) (5th Church) and the Dionysian Era (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html) (6th Church) ...


232nd post ...

Originally posted by Donks

Look up "cosmic microwave background" on google. Donks? It's funny how I just read about Dionysus arriving on the back of a donkey. Hence it would seem "yours" is the 230th post and mine is the 231st (and 232nd here). Also, did you notice how both our posts were posted at the same time? ...

Excerpt from Robert A. Johnson's, Ecstasy, Understandng the Psychology of Joy ...

Dionysus himself got drunk only once, and he didn't like it. To cure his wine-induced madness he went for a visit to Zeus's shrine. One story has it that he bogged down in quicksand and was saved by a donkey, who took him raving and drunk -- but safe nonetheless -- to Zeus. As recompense Zeus gave the donkey human speech. The other story, which I like much better, is that Dionysus turned into a donkey and arrived at Zeus's shrine braying, which became human speech. So when we get drunk enough to get this jackass aspect going, we are no longer candidates for ecstasy. Our humanness is lost.

[Cleopatra]

You are some guy Iacchus.:)

I don't know who this psychologist is but this narration of Dionysus and the donkey looks like an Aesop Myth.

I want a specific source for this myth. Who brought it to our attention. I want author, book, exact reference.

BTW. I want to learn some things about you, after all I have read your book almost twice, I want to know a couple of things about the author(you).

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I am always willing to learn, and will change my views if the evidence convinces me. Can you honestly state the same?

Would you venture to guess the answer to your question ? :D

[Mercutio]

Iacchus...in terms of an answer to my question... shall I take that as a "no", then?


edited to add....dang, El Greco, you beat me to it!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Iacchus...in terms of an answer to my question... shall I take that as a "no", then?

edited to add....dang, El Greco, you beat me to it! Yes, I am capable of moderating my views from time to time, even in spite of myself. However, if that means embracing something which goes contrary to what I already know, even though it's not impossible, I doubt it.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, I am capable of moderating my views from time to time, even in spite of myself. However, if that means embracing something which goes contrary to what I already know, even though it's not impossible, I doubt it. Thank you for your honesty.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

You are some guy Iacchus.:)

I don't know who this psychologist is but this narration of Dionysus and the donkey looks like an Aesop Myth.

I want a specific source for this myth. Who brought it to our attention. I want author, book, exact reference.If you want something more specific than the author and title of the book, I'm afraid I can't help? However, here's what it says on the inside cover ...

Through his bestselling books, noted author and Jungian analyst Robert A. Johnson has taken tens of thousands of readers on spiritual and psychological journeys toward inner transformation. In this book, he explains the nature of ecstasy and shows us how to reconnect with the ecstatic element that lies dormant within us.

Ecstasy was once considered a divine gift of the gods, Johnson tells us, a gift that could lift mortals out of ordinary reality and into a higher world. Because Western society systematically repressed this ecstatic human impulse in favor of the more rational path of the Judeo-Christian tradition, we are unable to truly experience the transformative power of joy and ecstasy.

Using the myth of Dionysus, the Greek god of wine, Johnson traces the rise and fall of this ancient cult to dramatize the loss of ecstasy in Western culture. In its purest form, the cult taught union with the divine through ceremonial wine drinking. But as time went on, the celebration of Dionysus deteriorated from the expression of the positive face of ecstasy to the negative -- the violence, the bloody rites, and the drunken pursuit of pleasure for its own sake. When early Roman and Jewish societies effectively stamped out the cult, Dionysian qualities were driven deep into our collective psyche and the blance between the rational and the irrational was destroyed.

According to C. G. Jung, we all carry the Dionysian archetype deep within us. But because it has been repressed, Johnson says, it has reemerged in its negative form: in street violence, drug and alchohol abuse, sexual repression, and racial hatred. This incisive and dynamic guide reveals how a return to the original Dionysian principles can restore harmony to our lives and help us to recover the balance so important to the survival of Western civilization.

Robert A. Johnson is the author of He, She, We, and Inner Work. He is a notted lecturer and Jungian analyst in private practice in San Diego, California. He has studied at the Jung Institute in Switzerland and the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in India. BTW. I want to learn some things about you, after all I have read your book almost twice, I want to know a couple of things about the author(you). Actually I thought I did a fairly good job in chapter 11 of my book, The Return of Odysseus (http://www.dionysus.org/x1101.html), which kind of explains the 20 or so year period of my life which occurs before Dionysus. And by the way, did you know that yours was your 4792nd post and, that the number 479 corresponds to the name Dennis? Which, I refer to in chaper 8 of my book, Dear David / 479 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0801.html), as well as in the thread, You Want More Proof (2)? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33588)

[Mercutio]

Through his bestselling books, noted author and Jungian analyst Robert A. Johnson has taken tens of thousands of readers on spiritual and psychological journeys toward inner transformation. In this book, he explains the nature of ecstasy and shows us how to reconnect with the ecstatic element that lies dormant within us.
...
Robert A. Johnson is the author of He, She, We, and Inner Work. He is a notted lecturer and Jungian analyst in private practice in San Diego, California. He has studied at the Jung Institute in Switzerland and the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in India.
Translation: Robert A. Johnson is writing fiction.

Iacchus, there is a huge chasm between this sort of feel-good self-help book and psychology as an experimental science. The former sells really well; the latter has actually made progress in understanding humans.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Translation: Robert A. Johnson is writing fiction.

Iacchus, there is a huge chasm between this sort of feel-good self-help book and psychology as an experimental science. The former sells really well; the latter has actually made progress in understanding humans. Yes, food for the soul which, is non-existent of course. ;)

Either way, it's something materialism doesn't/won't take into account.

While the fact of the matter is, if there is an afterlife, and we have done little to nourish our souls, what others might call "building character," we would appear as extremely emaciated creatues indeed.

So in this sense materialism offers nothing more than a temporal or "band-aid" fix to the problems facing mankind. And, when we run out of all our resources through over-consumption which, materialism tends to promote, then what?

In which case we have to ask ourselves, is there more to life then just keeping up with the Jones's?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
And by the way, did you know that yours was your 4792nd post and, that the number 479 corresponds to the name Dennis? Which, I refer to in chaper 8 of my book, Dear David / 479 (http://www.dionysus.org/x0801.html), as well as in the thread, You Want More Proof (2)? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33588)
And happens to the 2 of 4792?

It doesn't matter you never reply to my questions anyway. I have something else to tell you. Since the other evening ( my time),I think that it was Sunday that I read that you are interested in texts that talk about real experiences I thought about it and I think that I know what you would find really interesting.

You must study the texts of the Greek Church Fathers ( those that the Franco-levantines --like you my dear--call "The Dessert Fathers"...). Greek Orthodox Dogma is really interesting since it evolved from the Ancient Greek Philosophy, especially from the philosophical ideas of Plato.

I particularly suggest you to buy a book that is a collection of everything interesting, the book is called Philokalia (http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Christian/Philokalia/index.html). This site doesn't quote the best texts of hard philosophy but google to find more.

Unless you are an Internet person. In that case visit the forum of Infidels and search for the posts of yours truly under the nick Diotima. Some of the discussions I have had with the poster Doctor X worth reading and they are about this subject. Not about the spiritual marriage of course but about the significance of the experience in the Christian Texts and the Metamorphosis of the Greek Philosophy to the Christian Dogma.( friendly hint: don't attempt to log in there and post such things without being prepared to be treated in a way that it will make you appreciate the kindness of JREF members....).

Also, to be honest I have to tell you that I find this bashing of materialism quite boring, it sounds like a cliche to me. Nobody here plays the hard scientist in order to bash him for choosing another path than yours in his quest for the truth.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

And happens to the 2 of 4792?This is interesting ... 342 x 14 + "4" = 4792, in which case 4792 also corresponds to Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26). And here, when a number corresponds to Sybil and it ends with 2, that means the preceding numbers, in this case 479, correspond to Cindy (3) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#19) ... i.e., 34 x 14 + "3" = 479. So in this respect the number 4792 also corresponds to 32, which is Sybil's number and signifies the Celestial Marriage or, highest aspect of marriage. And here the number 3 signifies the high priest (as does 479), much as Levi was the third son and was the high priest over Israel, in which case the number 32 represents the marriage of the high priest (32) with the high priestess (23) ... i.e., 320 + 023 = 343 -- which, is 7 x 7 x 7.


It doesn't matter you never reply to my questions anyway. I have something else to tell you. Since the other evening ( my time),I think that it was Sunday that I read that you are interested in texts that talk about real experiences I thought about it and I think that I know what you would find really interesting.

You must study the texts of the Greek Church Fathers ( those that the Franco-levantines --like you my dear--call "The Dessert Fathers"...). Greek Orthodox Dogma is really interesting since it evolved from the Ancient Greek Philosophy, especially from the philosophical ideas of Plato. Must? ...

I particularly suggest you to buy a book that is a collection of everything interesting, the book is called Philokalia (http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Christian/Philokalia/index.html). This site doesn't quote the best texts of hard philosophy but google to find more.Actually as I have said before, I'm not really a big fan of "study," especially when it means studying those things which may never apply ... i.e., I have pleny of things to study in my own life. However, the materials you refer to may prove to be of some value and I will consider looking into them. Thanks.


Unless you are an Internet person. In that case visit the forum of Infidels and search for the posts of yours truly under the nick Diotima. Some of the discussions I have had with the poster Doctor X worth reading and they are about this subject. Not about the spiritual marriage of course but about the significance of the experience in the Christian Texts and the Metamorphosis of the Greek Philosophy to the Christian Dogma.( friendly hint: don't attempt to log in there and post such things without being prepared to be treated in a way that it will make you appreciate the kindness of JREF members....).Well I may just be headed over there shortly.


Also, to be honest I have to tell you that I find this bashing of materialism quite boring, it sounds like a cliche to me. Nobody here plays the hard scientist in order to bash him for choosing another path than yours in his quest for the truth. Well I don't pull out my shotgun and begin blasting away at the first sign of disagreement, however, there's more than enough to be said the qualities lacking in materialism. ;)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
This is interesting ... 342 x 14 + "4" = 4792, in which case 4792 also corresponds to Sybil (4) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#26). And here, when a number corresponds to Sybil and it ends with 2, that means the preceding numbers, in this case 479, correspond to Cindy (3) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#19) ... i.e., 34 x 14 + "3" = 479. So in this respect the number 4792 also corresponds to 32, which is Sybil's number and signifies the Celestial Marriage or, highest aspect of marriage. And here the number 3 signifies the high priest (as does 479), much as Levi was the third son and was the high priest over Israel, in which case the number 32 represents the marriage of the high priest (32) with the high priestess (23) ... i.e., 320 + 023 = 343 -- which, is 7 x 7 x 7


Iacchus I hope that this is not a marriage proposal.If yes I will like to know it because it will be the most original one I have ever received. :)

Joking.

I think that there is nothing else to discuss in this thread--for the moment. See you in another thread. :)

BTW. From your description of the 14 Gerarai I think that the one of Penelope suits me best.You asked me last week but I forgot to reply.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus

Actually as I have said before, I'm not really a big fan of "study,"
:eek: :eek: :eek: Say it ain't so!

I know this is ever-so-slightly out of context...but it did leap out at me as I read it.

BTW...with all the number-juggling you did, it may have skipped your notice...but you forgot to answer Cleopatra's question. What happens to the "2"?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Iacchus I hope that this is not a marriage proposal.If yes I will like to know it because it will be the most original one I have ever received. :)

Joking.Actually if you look it up, it says none other than this in terms of what it represents. :D Of course all the numbers tend to point to the same thing anyway.

But then again if you're not fibbing to me, this could very well be what you represent, the Chosen One which, was the title of Ariadne. It all seems to add up, at least in terms of what you've told me (i.e., strategically). So maybe the Guy upstairs has his own plans?


I think that there is nothing else to discuss in this thread--for the moment. See you in another thread. :)Here, check out this thread on Christianforums.com called, Science Education (http://www.christianforums.com/t90140) ... I just signed up today and my post begins on the bottom of the second page.


BTW. From your description of the 14 Gerarai I think that the one of Penelope suits me best.You asked me last week but I forgot to reply. Actually it's one of my favorites too, as it signifies none other than -- and I don't know if I'm allowed to say this -- the man's erection ... where the woman becomes the "embodiment" thereof ... While this too I've mentioned in the book, so I don't want you to think I made it up here. ;)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Actually it's one of my favorites too, as it signifies none other than -- and I don't know if I'm allowed to say this -- the man's erection ... where the woman becomes the "embodiment" thereof ... While this too I've mentioned in the book, so I don't want you to think I made it up here.

I wonder whether you say these things to women during sex. I mean real women, not the Three Graces or the Pleiades.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

:eek: :eek: :eek: Say it ain't so!

I know this is ever-so-slightly out of context...but it did leap out at me as I read it.Actually, when you look at it in terms of life, where everything you do becomes the "realization" thereof, you basically study as you go, and it doesn't require that you delve into formalized study. So in this sense you can say I'm a big fan of the "realization of life."

So what was that which the Bacchae decry? ... Knowledge is not wisdom?


BTW...with all the number-juggling you did, it may have skipped your notice...but you forgot to answer Cleopatra's question. What happens to the "2"? The number 2 in relation to the number 3, signifies the woman in the Celestial Marriage (32) (http://www.dionysus.org/x0402.html#31).

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Actually, when you look at it in terms of life, where everything you do becomes the "realization" thereof, you basically study as you go, and it doesn't require that you delve into formalized study. So in this sense you can say I'm a big fan of the "realization of life."

So what was that which the Bacchae decry? ... Knowledge is not wisdom?
So, did the Bacchaean creed come to you in a dream? Or did you find this out through some form of formalized study? If the former, why on earth should we care? If the latter, why do you not practice what you preach?

And WTF does "everything you do becomes the 'realization' therof" mean, aside from"$h!t happens"? Never mind, I am certain it has to do with the numbers on this post.

Hey, I enjoyed your numerological analysis of Cleopatra. Try me next. What do the numbers tell you?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
So, did the Bacchaean creed come to you in a dream? Or did you find this out through some form of formalized study? If the former, why on earth should we care? If the latter, why do you not practice what you preach? Read chapter 5 of my book ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html

And not only did I not know anything about Dionysus at the time, but it wasn't until somebody brought in a book of the meaning of names (in a sort of homeless shelter) that I even understood the name Dennis came from Dionysus.


And WTF does "everything you do becomes the 'realization' therof" mean, aside from"$h!t happens"? Never mind, I am certain it has to do with the numbers on this post.About the only research that I've done here (more so in passing) is to verify some of these realizations. And indeed, it's uncanny how accurate most of them turned out to be.


Hey, I enjoyed your numerological analysis of Cleopatra. Try me next. What do the numbers tell you? I'm looking at the number 3314 here (and verified it), where the number 33 signifies the "enlightenment" of the bridegroom (5), with respect to True Love (14), which are the qualities of the man's father (1), in relation to the qualities of the woman's mother (4), hence the two "dominant strengths" of the couple involved. Also note that the number 32 -- and its "reciprocal," 23 -- coincide with the numbers 4-32-1 and 1-23-4, where the one shows the woman decending to the level of the man's mother (43-2), and the other shows the man ascending to the level of the woman's father (12-3). And by the way, did you know that this was the "123rd" post in this thread? ;)

While here are a couple of links that further illustrate the number 33 ...

http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#25
http://www.dionysus.org/x0602.html#55

Also, is your username derived from Mercury, which was the Roman version of the god Hermes? You might find it interesting what I have to say about the Masonic Connection in the first link above.

[Cleopatra]

Iacchus his real name is not Mercutio though.

Also, I cannot join this forum you mentioned, those people are Christians in a different way than I am I don't know what I have to discuss with them.I have just visited it again though and now that it's 16:00 in Greece they have 532 users on line.... There are many Orthodox Christians too there. It's them I want to avoid most...

I like your avatar in that forum. Dolphins. I see Dolphins where I swim. Don't attempt to tell me that they are related to Dionysus. Ok? :)

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Iacchus his real name is not Mercutio though.
Details, details...

Iacchus, I am a little dissappointed as yet. I recently had my horoscope done by a well-trained astrologer, and I must say the reading was wonderful--but more to the point, I actually understood it. Your numerological reading: I'm looking at the number 3314 here (and verified it), where the number 33 signifies the "enlightenment" of the bridegroom (5), with respect to True Love (14), which are the qualities of the man's father (1), in relation to the qualities of the woman's mother (4), hence the two "dominant strengths" of the couple involved. Also note that the number 32 -- and its "reciprocal," 23 -- coincide with the numbers 4-32-1 and 1-23-4, where the one shows the woman decending to the level of the man's mother (43-2), and the other shows the man ascending to the level of the woman's father (12-3). And by the way, did you know that this was the "123rd" post in this thread? really does not tell me anything about myself. Can you please translate this into something that might tell me something about my real life? What sort of person am I? What relationships do I have? I promise you, I will be honest and admit any hits I see. If you like, I could compare your results to those of my astrologer, and we can see what works.

I am really looking forward to learning about myself!

[Cleopatra]

Iacchus

I would be interested about what Mercutio suggests especially because some posts above I made the comparison between the number 12 Astrology uses and your number 14 that you attribute to the Gerarai of course but you have said that your cycle repeats itself from start, so the 14th Gerara corresponds to the sign of Taurus.

[Dancing David]

The ephemeris used by astrologers is kind of off, by like sixteen degrees, and is inaccurate in aother ways as well, the vernal has moved out of Ares and is now in Peces, sonn to be in Aquarius in 2016. So the 'cardinal signs' are most likely not the actual cardinal signs anymore as the equinox and and solstice have moved. Jesus may have been a capricorn but if he was born today he would be a Sagitarius.

So part of the problem may be that modern astrologers don't look at the sky, so they don't know which constellation the palnets are actualy in and the cardinal signs have all changed.

(Yeah right! I much prefer tarot and the I Ching)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Details, details...

Iacchus, I am a little dissappointed as yet. I recently had my horoscope done by a well-trained astrologer, and I must say the reading was wonderful--but more to the point, I actually understood it. Your numerological reading:
really does not tell me anything about myself. Can you please translate this into something that might tell me something about my real life? What sort of person am I? What relationships do I have? I promise you, I will be honest and admit any hits I see. If you like, I could compare your results to those of my astrologer, and we can see what works.Why, was it any more meaningful for Cleopatra? Or was it? As I have said before, I'm really not very good at this outside of the medium it's presented in which, is really about as far as I took it with Cleopatra.

However, there was one thing about your possible relation to Hermes. Did you say that you were a psychologist? And, did you know that one of the titles of Hermes was, "Guide to the souls?" Indeed, and why shouldn't you express an interest in the collective unconscious? (as this was Hermes' favorite haunt).


I am really looking forward to learning about myself! Are you sure? For some reason I am not quite convinced?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Iacchus

I would be interested about what Mercutio suggests especially because some posts above I made the comparison between the number 12 Astrology uses and your number 14 that you attribute to the Gerarai of course but you have said that your cycle repeats itself from start, so the 14th Gerara corresponds to the sign of Taurus. Only in that the Gerarai were presented to me on the 14th day of the 14th month, in other words St. Valentine's Day.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Iacchus his real name is not Mercutio though.And yet it's important in the sense that this is how it was presented to us. The key here being if we can determine whether things happen arbitrarily or not.


Also, I cannot join this forum you mentioned, those people are Christians in a different way than I am I don't know what I have to discuss with them.I have just visited it again though and now that it's 16:00 in Greece they have 532 users on line.... There are many Orthodox Christians too there. It's them I want to avoid most...The forum is open to just about anyone, in fact there are lots of Atheists on board, at least in the section I referred you to.


I like your avatar in that forum. Dolphins. I see Dolphins where I swim. Don't attempt to tell me that they are related to Dionysus. Ok? :) http://www.dionysus.org/540bc.jpg

Well what did you expect? ... :D :D :D

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Dancing David
The ephemeris used by astrologers is kind of off, by like sixteen degrees, and is inaccurate in aother ways as well, the vernal has moved out of Ares and is now in Peces, sonn to be in Aquarius in 2016. So the 'cardinal signs' are most likely not the actual cardinal signs anymore as the equinox and and solstice have moved. Jesus may have been a capricorn but if he was born today he would be a Sagitarius.

So part of the problem may be that modern astrologers don't look at the sky, so they don't know which constellation the palnets are actualy in and the cardinal signs have all changed.

(Yeah right! I much prefer tarot and the I Ching)

Just a clarification here. Iacchus has never claimed that his numerical systen is related to astrology although he uses the Zodiac cycle to project his Gerarai-symbols to the cosmic universe, I don't know if he is doing this deliberately but this is what he is doing anyway.

What you say is absolutely true but modern astrologers reject the sun sign columns anyway.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Just a clarification here. Iacchus has never claimed that his numerical systen is related to astrology although he uses the Zodiac cycle to project his Gerarai-symbols to the cosmic universe, I don't know if he is doing this deliberately but this is what he is doing anyway.

What you say is absolutely true but modern astrologers reject the sun sign columns anyway. Actually it was the signs of the Zodiac that gave me the idea for coming up with the names, while some of the definitions are derived from it, but no, I don't base the whole thing exclusively on the Zodiac. While it was only afterwards I believe, that I made the connection to the fourteen Gerarai. :)

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus

However, there was one thing about your possible relation to Hermes. Did you say that you were a psychologist? And, did you know that one of the titles of Hermes was, "Guide to the souls?" Indeed, and why shouldn't you express an interest in the collective unconscious? (as this was Hermes' favorite haunt).
Why no interest? Um...because I did express an interest in it, considerably earlier in my life...looked at the concept, and found it lacking any support whatsoever. Things are not true because we want them to be, they are true or false independently of our desires. The collective unconscious is a really cool idea...and nothing more.

Are you sure? For some reason I am not quite convinced? Then you do not know me. I assure you, I am quite sincere about this.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Actually it was the signs of the Zodiac that gave me the idea for coming up with the names, while some of the definitions are derived from it, but no, I don't base the whole thing exclusively on the Zodiac. While it was only afterwards I believe, that I made the connection to the fourteen Gerarai. :)

I have asked you twice in this thread how the number 14 comes and how did you find the names of the 14 Gerarai since we don't have any inscriptions that record names of Gerarai and you haven't replied. Now you say that the Zodiac gave you the idea.

I wonder why am I in this discussion still, are you toying me?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I have asked you twice in this thread how the number 14 comes and how did you find the names of the 14 Gerarai since we don't have any inscriptions that record names of Gerarai and you haven't replied. Now you say that the Zodiac gave you the idea.

I wonder why am I in this discussion still, are you toying me? Please read the part about where Cupid came to the doorstep, and if you would, follow through to the Love Connecton ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0401.html#9

I also have a link to the pictures in case you're interested but, only if you're sincere about it. Please send me an email.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Why no interest? Um...because I did express an interest in it, considerably earlier in my life...looked at the concept, and found it lacking any support whatsoever. Things are not true because we want them to be, they are true or false independently of our desires. The collective unconscious is a really cool idea...and nothing more. Do you know who Joseph Campbell is? Do you know what he says? ... Follow your bliss.

In which case I would suggest to you that you look into the god Hermes, because this may very well be your calling.


Then you do not know me. I assure you, I am quite sincere about this. If you wish to detail any pertinent information that's fine, but I doubt that I'll stray much from what I've already said.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Do you know who Joseph Campbell is? Do you know what he says? ... Follow your bliss.
"the power of myth", no? As long as you keep it at myth, wonderful. When you start claiming this is psychology, that is when you start needing to demonstrate results.

In which case I would suggest to you that you look into the god Hermes, because this may very well be your calling.
Hermes is associated with signs of air, of course...my astrological reading says I lack air. Which is right?

If you wish to detail any pertinent information that's fine, but I doubt that I'll stray much from what I've already said. Ok, I think my problem is that I don't understand what you have already said. If you could simply phrase the things you have already said in terms of my life, that would be grand.

[Iacchus]

Excerpt from the book, The Gods of Greece, by Arianna Stassinopoulos/Huffington ...

Hermes

To ask who is your favourite god is as vain a question as to ask which is your favourite Mozart opera. Yet we all have our favourite among his operas, and I certainly have my favourite among the gods. The Magic Flute is my favourite Mozart opera -- indeed, my favourite opera -- and Hermes my favourite god. Only recently did I become aware of the connection. The Magic Flute is about the voyage, the adventure, of a soul through different realms, different tests, through love, fear, pain and joy. Hermes is the guide of our voyage and the guardian-spirit of our adventure.

If I close my eyes and try to conjure up Hermes, I see motion: winged sandals, winged words, wings on his low-crowned hat, wings on his magic wand, the gods' messenger who "flies as fleet as thought," the driver of the sun's chariot, the guide of the Underworld, "the wayfarer," "swift-running," "swift-footed." My mind quivers with the epithets, the images, the representations of unchained energy.

I cannot write about Hermes impersonally. He is the first god who moved me, who opened my heart to the mystery of the gods and the extraordinariness of the ordinary. He is the god of the unexpected, of luck, of coincidences, of synchronicity. "Hermes has entered in our midst," the ancient Greeks would say when a sudden silence entered the room, descended on the conversation, introduced into the gathereing another dimension. Whenever things seem fixed, rigid, "stuck," Hermes introduces fluidity, motion, new beginnings -- and the confusion that almost inevitably precedes new beginnings.Boy, this almost sounds like the guy that I referred to in The Masonic Connection (http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#28) ...

[Cleopatra]

Ah no!!! Arianna Stasinopoulos???!!!! Please. She is a professional wife of rich men and in her free time she plays the journalist.


edited to add: I hope you didn't vote her in California.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Ah no!!! Arianna Stasinopoulos???!!!! Please. She is a professional wife of rich men and in her free time she plays the journalist.Acually one of the best books I've ever read on Greek mythology. Indeed, it has more of a psychological appeal, why I found it so fascinating, and I thought it might appeal to Mercutio more as well.


edited to add: I hope you didn't vote her in California. Well actually I had a thing for her before I moved up to Oregon from California in 1994, and even sent her a copy of my manuscript, but this was after I found out she had married this Michael Huffington guy, and neither did she ever get back to me.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Acually one of the best books I've ever read on Greek mythology. Indeed, it has more of a psychological appeal, why I found it so fascinating, and I thought it might appeal to Mercutio more as well.

Hmmm maybe. But I don't know which are the other books about Greek Mythology that you have read. Maybe in comparison with those hers is a great book indeed.


Well actually I had a thing for her before I moved up to Oregon from California in 1994, and even sent her a copy of my manuscript, but this was after I found out she had married this Michael Huffington guy, and neither did she ever get back to me.

Poor Dionysus. You sent her a manuscript? You should have sent her a copy of your bank account. If she found it satisfactory enough she would divorce her husband within minutes but seriously Iacchus I think that it's time we close this discussion and we move on.

What do you think.? Yes? :)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
"the power of myth", no? As long as you keep it at myth, wonderful. When you start claiming this is psychology, that is when you start needing to demonstrate results.And what exactly do you think people referred to 2,500 years ago? I'm afraid they didn't have "modern psychology" back then.


Hermes is associated with signs of air, of course...my astrological reading says I lack air. Which is right?Hermes is also associated with the Underworld, and the ID.


Ok, I think my problem is that I don't understand what you have already said. If you could simply phrase the things you have already said in terms of my life, that would be grand. Maybe you should begin a spiritual quest? If this is something you're interested in, what have you got to lose?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Hmmm maybe. But I don't know which are the other books about Greek Mythology that you have read. Maybe in comparison with those hers is a great book indeed.Even a bag of potato chips will serve as a gourmet meal if you're hungry enough. ;)


Poor Dionysus. You sent her a manuscript? You should have sent her a copy of your bank account. If she found it satisfactory enough she would divorce her husband within minutes but seriously Iacchus I think that it's time we close this discussion and we move on.A gold digger huh?


What do you think.? Yes? :) I suppose ... Got any ideas?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
And what exactly do you think people referred to 2,500 years ago? I'm afraid they didn't have "modern psychology" back then.
I'm sorry...are you implying that they knew more about human natrue 2500 years ago than we do today? No, they did not have modern psychology...nor modern medicine, nor modern physics...I am extraordinarily grateful that I live in an age with these things. Remember, Iacchus, science works by discarding that which has failed to demonstrate its utility. Anything from 2500 years ago that is true...would still be true.

Anything that does not change cannot improve. 2500-year old BS is still BS.

Hermes is also associated with the Underworld, and the ID.
The id? Excuse me? Your psychology is roughly 50 years out of date. If you want your ideas to explain psychology, Iacchus, you need to know the current state of the science you wish to revolutionize. This new car you are selling is an Edsel.

Maybe you should begin a spiritual quest? If this is something you're interested in, what have you got to lose? Iacchus, I have dedicated my life to the exploration of psychology. We differ in that I don't just make ***** up. I use the best tool at my disposal, the scientific method. If your ideas are right...guess what? Science can evaluate that, and allow others to build on your ideas. A "spiritual quest" does not advance our knowledge. This is far too important a topic not to use our very best tools. It is far too important a topic to ignore what the others who have dedicated their lives to it have found. Your work, which you do in isolation (or so it would appear) cannot hope to compete with the collective work of hundreds of others. A spiritual quest? Nope, this is more important than that.

Maybe you should begin a scientific quest? If this is something you're interested in, what have you got to lose?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

I'm sorry...are you implying that they knew more about human natrue 2500 years ago than we do today? No, they did not have modern psychology...nor modern medicine, nor modern physics...I am extraordinarily grateful that I live in an age with these things. Remember, Iacchus, science works by discarding that which has failed to demonstrate its utility. Anything from 2500 years ago that is true...would still be true.

Anything that does not change cannot improve. 2500-year old BS is still BS.

The id? Excuse me? Your psychology is roughly 50 years out of date. If you want your ideas to explain psychology, Iacchus, you need to know the current state of the science you wish to revolutionize. This new car you are selling is an Edsel.

Iacchus, I have dedicated my life to the exploration of psychology. We differ in that I don't just make ***** up. I use the best tool at my disposal, the scientific method. If your ideas are right...guess what? Science can evaluate that, and allow others to build on your ideas. A "spiritual quest" does not advance our knowledge. This is far too important a topic not to use our very best tools. It is far too important a topic to ignore what the others who have dedicated their lives to it have found. Your work, which you do in isolation (or so it would appear) cannot hope to compete with the collective work of hundreds of others. A spiritual quest? Nope, this is more important than that.

Maybe you should begin a scientific quest? If this is something you're interested in, what have you got to lose? How can you say such things when you don't even know what the heck you're talking about?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
How can you say such things when you don't even know what the heck you're talking about? Gee, it doesn't appear to have stopped you...


Which is it that I don't know? I am talking about psychology--the thing I teach...got the degree in, do for a living, all that jazz...so please, if I am telling my students the wrong information, please do us all a favor and correct me. Show me how Jung and Freud are still considered cutting-edge, and how recent research on human behavior supports 2500-year-old myths, and how I can come up with better explanations of human behavior by sitting and thinking than I can by collaborating with thousands of other researchers.

You claim you are going to revolutionize psychology. Hey, if you want to start with just one person at a time...I'm here.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Gee, it doesn't appear to have stopped you...

Which is it that I don't know? I am talking about psychology--the thing I teach...got the degree in, do for a living, all that jazz...so please, if I am telling my students the wrong information, please do us all a favor and correct me. Show me how Jung and Freud are still considered cutting-edge, and how recent research on human behavior supports 2500-year-old myths, and how I can come up with better explanations of human behavior by sitting and thinking than I can by collaborating with thousands of other researchers.Do you believe in life after death? Apparently not, otherwise you would show a great deal more respect for your ancestors and spirituality in general, for this is where each and every one has gone. Does psychology teach anything about the nature of spirit?

If in fact there is an afterlife, then shouldn't we be asking ourselves why we're here, and what are some of the things we could do in order to prepare for it? And doesn't that sound like the role of religion, as well as psychology which, has pretty much taken over the role of religion? ... i.e., in the secular sense it has which, is another one of my beefs against science. Doesn't that make any sense?

So, don't you think it's foolish to insist that our ancestors didn't understand such things and, that this wasn't the nature of religious ritual in general? I do. Didn't you say you were familiar with Joseph Campbell's book, The Power of Myth?


You claim you are going to revolutionize psychology. Hey, if you want to start with just one person at a time...I'm here. Me? No, I'm just doing this because I don't have much else to do at the present. And, even if people did come to realize they were out of touch, I don't plan on being here forever, I can assure you. And when I'm dead, then what? ...

Hey, did you know that this was the 147th post of the thread which, signifies the first (1), the middle (4) and the last (7); which is also the age at which Israel died?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

You claim you are going to revolutionize psychology. Hey, if you want to start with just one person at a time...I'm here. Sorry, I didn't catch this last part until right before I posted the last post. I just thought you were being sarcastic here. But hey, maybe you really are Hermes? By the way, is Mercutio derived from Hermes or, is it something derived from Shakespeare? ... Or both? Nevermind, I just did a search and found a link connecting it to Shakespeare ... And yet even here it demonstrates the relationship between Shakespeare and Dionysus, as Dionysus was the god of theater and, drama.

[El Greco]

What you still don't get Iacchus, is that this is not a fight "spiritualism vs science". There have been a lot of religious and/or highly spiritual scientists who could separate their spiritual/ religious beliefs from scientific logic and evidence. They achieved remarkable things and furthered scientific knowledge while at the same time they deeply believed in God.

The thing with you is that you mistake delusions for spiritualism, and amoral materialism for science. That is, you combine the worst of both worlds.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco
What you still don't get Iacchus, is that this is not a fight "spiritualism vs science". There have been a lot of religious and/or highly spiritual scientists who could separate their spiritual/ religious beliefs from scientific logic and evidence. They achieved remarkable things and furthered scientific knowledge while at the same time they deeply believed in God.

The thing with you is that you mistake delusions for spiritualism, and amoral materialism for science. That is, you combine the worst of both worlds. Just hold on will ya! Give me chance to finish the next post.

By the way, you still don't know what you're talking about. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Gee, it doesn't appear to have stopped you...

Which is it that I don't know? I am talking about psychology--the thing I teach...got the degree in, do for a living, all that jazz...so please, if I am telling my students the wrong information, please do us all a favor and correct me. Show me how Jung and Freud are still considered cutting-edge, and how recent research on human behavior supports 2500-year-old myths, and how I can come up with better explanations of human behavior by sitting and thinking than I can by collaborating with thousands of other researchers.Hey, did you know that this was your 3347th post and, that both the numbers 33 and 47 correspond to the spiritual bridegroom (5)? ... i.e., 14 x 2 + "5" = 33 and 14 x 3 + "5" = 47. And, did you know that the number 47 happens to appear in each and every single Star Trek episode -- you know like 47 years, 47 minutes, deck 47, etc. -- since the original series began? Isn't that strange? And what's equally strange is when I did the Internet search above, come to find out Mercutio was one of the charachters in the Star Trek, the Next Generation series. Whoa! ...

All of which brings up what happened 7 years ago when I asked my friend Mike (http://www.dionysus.org/x1601.html) -- who, was the only person familiar with my book and, had read it several times over -- to deliver a copy of the manuscript to the young woman I referred to in chapter 15, Princess Thianna (http://www.dionysus.org/x1501.html). Which is funny because we were supposed to meet for lunch and he was 45 minutes late, so we wound up talking in my car for 15 minutes, a Mercury Mystique by the way, which he made mention of, and then proceeded to bring up this thing about the number 47 and the Star Trek series. And, upon departing he mentioned how he was the god Mercury, about to make the delivery. I had also mentioned that 47 was the first two digits of 479, and after he left, I proceeded to go to Kentucky Fried Chicken (other than the restaurant we were at) and buy the three piece chicken meal for $4.79! ... where the numbers 3 and 479 correspond to the high priest (3), i.e., 14 x 34 + "3" = 479. (There was more to this which happened later.) So here we are again!

Of course this was right before my falling out with him, because he thought I was nuts for asking him to do this, and it ultimately served to derail any further interest I had in completing the book. At least this is how it turned out anyway. I refer to this in chapter 16, The Quest for Michael (http://www.dionysus.org/x1601.html). And neither did I get chance to finish the chapter, and I kind of left the whole thing open at this point, as things continued to escalate and I had no idea where it would all end. But now, that I've essentially been purged of the whole thing (in many ways I'm not even the same person), it would seem that things have come full circle and now it's actually time to do something about it. What do you think?

While here's an illustration that shows the relationship between the numbers 33, 47 and 479, by inserting a 4 between the two 3's in 33 ...

3(4)3 = 14 x 24 + "7" = 343
3(7)3 = 14 x 26 + "9" = 373
3(9)3 = 14 x 28 + "1" = 393

And here the numbers 479 and 34793 also correspond to 3 ... i.e., 14 x 34 + "3" = 479 and 14 x 2485 + "3" = 34793.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

What you still don't get Iacchus, is that this is not a fight "spiritualism vs science". There have been a lot of religious and/or highly spiritual scientists who could separate their spiritual/ religious beliefs from scientific logic and evidence. They achieved remarkable things and furthered scientific knowledge while at the same time they deeply believed in God.

The thing with you is that you mistake delusions for spiritualism, and amoral materialism for science. That is, you combine the worst of both worlds. Why do you sound so much like Zero here? You're not his sock puppet are you?

Hey is Zero around? Maybe he needs to see this too? :D

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Why do you sound so much like Zero here? You're not his sock puppet are you?

Indeed, we all sound alike. Could it be because we all think you post gobbledygook ? Either this or there are about 100 Zero's sockpuppets.

[El Greco]

Which made me forget your usual malfunction that obstructs you from posting something that could even vaguely resemble an answer to the actual points.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

Which made me forget your usual malfunction that obstructs you from posting something that could even vaguely resemble an answer to the actual points. Haw hee haw! ... Haw hee haw! ... Haw hee haw!

And you bray like an ass man! :p

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hey, did you know that this was your 3347th post and, that both the numbers 33 and 47 correspond to the spiritual bridegroom (5)? ... i.e., 14 x 2 + "5" = 33 and 14 x 3 + "5" = 47. And, did you know that the number 47 happens to appear in each and every single Star Trek episode -- you know like 47 years, 47 minutes, deck 47, etc. -- since the original series began? Isn't that strange? And what's equally strange is when I did the Internet search above, come to find out Mercutio was one of the charachters in the Star Trek, the Next Generation series. Whoa! ...

All of which brings up what happened 7 years ago when I asked my friend Mike (http://www.dionysus.org/x1601.html) -- who, was the only person familiar with my book and, had read it several times over -- to deliver a copy of the manuscript to the young woman I referred to in chapter 15, Princess Thianna (http://www.dionysus.org/x1501.html). Which is funny because we were supposed to meet for lunch and he was 45 minutes late, so we wound up talking in my car for 15 minutes, a Mercury Mystique by the way, which he made mention of, and then proceeded to bring up this thing about the number 47 and the Star Trek series. And, upon departing he mentioned how he was the god Mercury, about to make the delivery. I had also mentioned that 47 was the first two digits of 479, and after he left, I proceeded to go to Kentucky Fried Chicken (other than the restaurant we were at) and buy the three piece chicken meal for $4.79! ... where the numbers 3 and 479 correspond to the high priest (3), i.e., 14 x 34 + "3" = 479. (There was more to this which happened later.) So here we are again!

Of course this was right before my falling out with him, because he thought I was nuts for asking him to do this, and it ultimately served to derail any further interest I had in completing the book. At least this is how it turned out anyway. I refer to this in chapter 16, The Quest for Michael (http://www.dionysus.org/x1601.html). And neither did I get chance to finish the chapter, and I kind of left the whole thing open at this point, as things continued to escalate and I had no idea where it would all end. But now, that I've essentially been purged of the whole thing (in many ways I'm not even the same person), it would seem that things have come full circle and now it's actually time to do something about it. What do you think?

While here's an illustration that shows the relationship between the numbers 33, 47 and 479, by inserting a 4 between the two 3's in 33 ...

3(4)3 = 14 x 24 + "7" = 343
3(7)3 = 14 x 26 + "9" = 373
3(9)3 = 14 x 28 + "1" = 393

And here the numbers 479 and 34793 also correspond to 3 ... i.e., 14 x 34 + "3" = 479 and 14 x 2485 + "3" = 34793. I am going to assume that this post was an attempt at humor. I will assume this because it is less disturbing than the other obvious possibility, which is that you need professional help, and soon.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Do you believe in life after death? Apparently not, otherwise you would show a great deal more respect for your ancestors and spirituality in general, for this is where each and every one has gone. Does psychology teach anything about the nature of spirit?
Actually, over the course of the history of the science of psychology, it has gone from a "science of consciousness" to a "science of behavior", with many forays into areas which seemed promising--including the survival of the spirit, for instance. Why do we no longer study this fascinating area? Simple. There was nothing there.

It is not the case that we have rejected these things out of hand. It is the case that we took a serious look, and were convinced that there was nothing to look at.

[Cleopatra]

Until Iacchus confirms that he was joking to his last post to Mercutio I suggest we stop the discussion for a while. :)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

I am going to assume that this post was an attempt at humor. I will assume this because it is less disturbing than the other obvious possibility, which is that you need professional help, and soon. Really, and why do you say that? I can see you have a lot of things to digest here.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Really, and why do you say that? I can see you have a lot of things to digest here. Please, tell me whether it was a joke. Yes, there is a lot to digest here, but perhaps not in the way you intend.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Actually, over the course of the history of the science of psychology, it has gone from a "science of consciousness" to a "science of behavior", with many forays into areas which seemed promising--including the survival of the spirit, for instance. Why do we no longer study this fascinating area? Simple. There was nothing there.

It is not the case that we have rejected these things out of hand. It is the case that we took a serious look, and were convinced that there was nothing to look at. This is total rubbish! Look it up man! ... And why do you think Dionysus showed up at the time that he did, to play footsies with the established view? Guess again!


Excerpt from Robert A. Johnson's, ECSTASY - Understanding the Psychology of Joy ...


You cannot kill a god, who is by definition immortal. Neither can you kill an archetype, for an archetype is a basic human drive. We carry the archetypes deep within us; they are integral parts of our human nature that must be lived out. When an archetype is not lived out with consciousness or dignity, as von Franz says, it "loads up with energy and becomes inhuman."

This happens not only on the level of the individual, but on the level of the collecitive unconscious, the psyche of a whole society. Carl Jung has said of this phenomenon:

The gigantic catastrophes that threaten us are not elemental happeinings of a physical or biological kind, but are psychic events. We are threatened in a fearful way by wars and revolutions that are nothing else than psychic epidemics. At any moment a few million people may be seized by a madness, and then we have another world war or a devastating revolution. Instead of being exposed to wild beasts, tumbling rocks, and inundating waters, man is exposed today to the elemental forces of his own psyche.This was brought home one day when a friend took me to an air show. Thousands of people were in the crowd -- I'd never been to such a thing before. My friend said, "You know, there's a tremendous amount of collective power in a group like this. They will demand blood, and they're strong enough to get it." At that very moment a small plane crashed and burned right in front of us. I could feel the Dionysian energy galvanize the crowd, which was at once thrilled and horrified. It was a terrible form, but nonetheless the god was served.I can really see I don't have much else to say here.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
This is total rubbish! Look it up man! ... And why do you think Dionysus showed up at the time that he did, to play footsies with the established view? Guess again!
I could look it up in a dozen history of psych texts, but having taught history of psych so often, I really don't feel I need to look it up now.

Excerpt from Robert A. Johnson's, ECSTASY - Understanding the Psychology of Joy ...


This was brought home one day when a friend took me to an air show. Thousands of people were in the crowd -- I'd never been to such a thing before. My friend said, "You know, there's a tremendous amount of collective power in a group like this. They will demand blood, and they're strong enough to get it." At that very moment a small plane crashed and burned right in front of us. I could feel the Dionysian energy galvanize the crowd, which was at once thrilled and horrified. It was a terrible form, but nonetheless the god was served.

I can really see I don't have much else to say here. I take it that you are serious, then. Goodbye and be well, then. I hope you get the help you need.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Please, tell me whether it was a joke. Yes, there is a lot to digest here, but perhaps not in the way you intend. And what part were you referring to here? You obviously didn't recognize the synchronicity? If you won't at least address that then there's no point in discussing it further. For this is the only thing that makes any sense out of all of this.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio

Please, tell me whether it was a joke. Yes, there is a lot to digest here, but perhaps not in the way you intend. In case anyone's interested I've started a new thread called, Synchronicity / James Randi? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35113) ...

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Iacchus
You don't get it huh? ... Man (5) + Woman (6) + Marriage (7) = "The Marriage" (567).

Wrong!

Man (17) + Woman (11) + Marriage (4) = The Marriage (17114). Try to get it right next time.

[El Greco]

I'm afraid y'all got it wrong. Here's how it goes:

Man (6) + Woman (6) + Marriage (6) = "The Marriage" (666)

Talk about inseparable twosome.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by El Greco

I'm afraid y'all got it wrong. Here's how it goes:

Man (6) + Woman (6) + Marriage (6) = "The Marriage" (666)

Talk about inseparable twosome. If you took a cross, and divided its height equally into thirds, where the height from the top to the crux equals one third, and the height from the crux to the base equals two thirds, then the "crux of the matter" -- which, signifies "enlightenment" -- rests at the two third mark or, 666! ... which is two thirds of a thousand.

And, since enlightenment is a form of awareness, then everything above the 666 mark signifies awareness, and everything below signifies unawarness, at least in a relative sense. In which case I would suggest the number 666 represents everything that leads up to awareness, but not beyond it.

[RussDill]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If you took a cross, and divided its height equally into thirds, where the height from the top to the crux equals one third, and the height from the crux to the base equals two thirds, then the "crux of the matter" -- which, signifies "enlightenment" -- rests at the two third mark or, 666! ... which is two thirds of a thousand.

And, since enlightenment is a form of awareness, then everything above the 666 mark signifies awareness, and everything below signifies unawarness, at least in a relative sense. In which case I would suggest the number 666 represents everything that leads up to awareness, but not beyond it.

ummm...right, I suppose all this info was obtained through visions, right?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by RussDill

ummm...right, I suppose all this info was obtained through visions, right? Actually it was more a "speculative" (1) matter of the brain. ;)

Of course from there I need to weigh it out (2), before substantiating it (3), and then letting it go. And, if there's anything to it, it may come back to me later as possible flashes of insight. Which, is how "intuition" (4) works by the way.

Thus you have what corresponds to the first four elements of marriage below:

1) The man's father or, that which is speculative.

2) The man's mother or, that which is feeling derived.

3) The woman's father or, that which is substantial.

4) The woman's mother or, that which is intuitive.

All of which culiminates into the "crux of the matter" and signifies the spiritual husband (5).

Thus having become "enlightened" (5) from above, the husband establishes "synchronicity" with the bride (6) below, and the marriage (7) of heaven and earth have now become realized (567).


http://www.dionysus.org/art0608.gif

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Iacchus

Thus having become "enlightened" (5) from above, the husband establishes "synchronicity" with the bride (6) below, and the marriage (7) of heaven and earth have now become realized (567).


You better stop posting this false information. You are damaging the numerology movement. Cease and desist or I will sue you.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer

You better stop posting this false information. You are damaging the numerology movement. Cease and desist or I will sue you. Why, because it might actually make sense? :D

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If you took a cross, and divided its height equally into thirds, where the height from the top to the crux equals one third, and the height from the crux to the base equals two thirds, then the "crux of the matter" -- which, signifies "enlightenment" -- rests at the two third mark or, 666! ... which is two thirds of a thousand.

And, since enlightenment is a form of awareness, then everything above the 666 mark signifies awareness, and everything below signifies unawarness, at least in a relative sense. In which case I would suggest the number 666 represents everything that leads up to awareness, but not beyond it. Well, if you round properly, it actually rests at 667. So unless you just made up all this stuff about 666, you have just proven yourself wrong. Either that, or maybe all the numbers are interchangeable anyway.

Plus, that arbitrary division of a cross is just that--an arbitrary division. The crosspiece of a cross may be at any number of different arbitrary locations. So choosing 666 is not something that you stumbled across, it is something you constructed.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Well, if you round properly, it actually rests at 667. So unless you just made up all this stuff about 666, you have just proven yourself wrong. Either that, or maybe all the numbers are interchangeable anyway.Actually have already considered it this way, and I agree it makes more sense. For example if you compared it to the surface of a body of water, the number 667 represents the surface and everything existing above, and the number 666 represents the body of water itself and everything existing below the suface. I just didn't feel like taking the time to explain it at this point. Not sure anyone would be able to understand it anyway?

Plus, that arbitrary division of a cross is just that--an arbitrary division. The crosspiece of a cross may be at any number of different arbitrary locations. So choosing 666 is not something that you stumbled across, it is something you constructed. Conjecture.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Iacchus

Actually have already considered it this way, and I agree it makes more sense. For example if you compared it to the surface of a body of water, the number 667 represents the surface and everything existing above, and the number 666 represents the body of water itself and everything existing below the suface. I just didn't feel like taking the time to explain it at this point. Not sure anyone would be able to understand it anyway?

Conjecture. I was also going to suggest that water signifies the level of the unconscious which, is how Poseidon, the god of the sea -- with all his monsters from the id -- is represented ...


1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. - Revelation 13:1-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13)Of course this is the same beast which gives rise to the false prophet later in the chapter whose number is 666. ;)

[Dancing David]

Once again:

in hebrai gematria
s=60,v=6,m(ending)=600

Sum='I am' in latin.

The beast is rome.

The writer of the book orevealations thought that the world was going to end right away, they did not expect that the stuff would be around two thousand years later.

[Cleopatra]

I am bumping this thread for Hans.


Given the opportunity I want to thank you Denis because now that I re-read the whole thread I remember that it was a pleasure discussing with you although you like to play crazy sometimes. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I am bumping this thread for Hans.

Given the opportunity I want to thank you Denis because now that I re-read the whole thread I remember that it was a pleasure discussing with you although you like to play crazy sometimes. ;) Must have been that mad god, Dionysus (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html). ;)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Must have been that mad god, Dionysus (http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html). ;)

Have you turned into a Maenad now? :eek:

Just teasing...but a good opportunity to remind you that Dionysus' devine madness was related to the females. Leave this R.Graves aside and grab this Dodds for Christ sake!

[Iacchus]

Excerpt from Walter F. Otto's, Dionysus, Myth and Cult ...


The feminine aspect of his nature is also revealed in his manner of loving. His whole existence is illuminated and crowned by the love of women. Anacreaon's song to him already makes it clear how close Eros and Aphrodite are to him. In it the prayer for love's fulfillment begins with the words "O Lord, whose playfellows are the mighty Eros, and the dark-eyed nymphs and violet Aphrodite!" The goddess of love is called his consort, and she supposedly became the mother of the Charites in Orchomenus by him. Thus many of the nymphs with whom he revels become his mistresses and surprise him one day with a new-born infant boy.

However, he is far from being a wanton profligate, and even if he occasionally receives an epithet which sounds obscene to us, the high nobility of his spirit is revealed that much more in all representations of him, and the impression they give is emphasized even more by the way in which his actions are contrasted with those of the satyrs, of whose naked lust the god seems to take no notice. Indeed, the one thing which sets him off from all of the truly masculine gods, whose passions are cooled by transient moments of possession, is the fact that his love is ecstatic and binds him to the loved one forever. We see this at its best in the vase paintings. There is good reason for our calling Ariadne the chosen one, for it is quite remarkable how little the myth speaks of any other true love affair.

This should now prepare us for a proper understanding of the spirit of the love which dwells in the hearts of the women of Dionysus. There is nothing so foreign to the orgiastic dancers of the god as unrestrained erotic sensuality. If an occasional off-color scene shows up among the countless representations of the actions of Dionysus, the remaining scenes demonstrate in a most convincing manner that the maenads are characterized by a stateliness and a haughty aloofness, and their wildness has nothing to do with the lustful excitement found in the half-animal, half-human companions who whirl around them.

In the famous messenger speech of the Bacchae of Euripides, the modesty of the women in ecstasy is explicitly emphasized in the face of the malicious stories told about them. On vase paintings they brusquely wave off their forward lovers with torches and snakes. According to Nonnus, each has wound a snake around her body beneath her clothes to protect herself from the lustful desires of men even when she is asleep or defenseless. Their love is of a higher type. "The Bacchant pays no attention to the silenus who grabs at her in his lust; for the glances of the Bacchant sweep up high into the aether and yet are filled with the spirit of love." By the way, who was Dodds?

[Cleopatra]

We weren't discussing about Dionysus' feminity , Iacchus but about the devine madness that is related to the Maenads.

As for Dodds, the two of us have discussed about him in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870273571&highlight=Dodds#post1870273571) past thread of yours.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
We weren't discussing about Dionysus' feminity , Iacchus but about the devine madness that is related to the Maenads.But what are you saying, that the Maenads don't represent his feminine side? Why else would they be so closely associated with him then?


As for Dodds, the two of us have discussed about him in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870273571&highlight=Dodds#post1870273571) past thread of yours. Boy, that was a long time ago.


"To anyone who considered that I would actually make a nude avatar, given previous controversy. I wouldn't.
To anyone who is using this bit of fun (yeah remember that?) to make or score points in other higher arguments in other threads and forums/fora (whatever you want to call the plural), You can get stuffed."~Reginald.By the way, do you find anything objectionable about how naked my dolphins look? :D

http://www.dionysus.org/images/vba2282.gif

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Iacchus
But what are you saying, that the Maenads don't represent his feminine side? Why else would they be so closely associated with him then?
Socrates in "Phaedrus" says that we accomplish the greatest goods with the help of the Mania( madness). :)

It seems though that very early but not as early as the homeric era, the Greeks distinguished the mental illness from the manic inspiration or the manic lust ( a notion that the arly church fathers usurped but don't let me start with that).

Plato distinguishes four types of the Divine Madness.

1. The prophetic madness( its patron saint is Apollo)
2. The ritual madness --Dionysus is its patron saint.
3. The poetic mania--inspired by the Muses.
4.The erotic mania--inspired by Venus and Eros.

Now Pythia was introduced in Delphi by Dionysus who was not an early deity of the greek pantheon as I have explained to you in the Bacchae thread. In Greek the word prophet : mantis and the word menomai( being in a state of mania) have the same root. So, the maenads symbolize exactly this aspect of the deity

Why they were female? The explanation has to do with sympathetic magic mostly rather than the reason you give. The dances of the maenads that in many cases took place on the mountains and during winter are rituals of fertility.

By the way, do you find anything objectionable about how naked my dolphins look? Behave yourself Denis or I will go start a thread about Middle East in your forum and you won't like that. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Socrates in "Phaedrus" says that we accomplish the greatest goods with the help of the Mania( madness). :)Phaedrus? Have anything to do with Ariadne's sister, Phaedra? Of course people have accused me of being a bit off my rocker, but that don't bother me none.


It seems though that very early but not as early as the homeric era, the Greeks distinguished the mental illness from the manic inspiration or the manic lust ( a notion that the arly church fathers usurped but don't let me start with that).The main thing being that you can distinguish it from psychosis, right?


Plato distinguishes four types of the Divine Madness.

1. The prophetic madness( its patron saint is Apollo)
2. The ritual madness --Dionysus is its patron saint.
3. The poetic mania--inspired by the Muses.
4.The erotic mania--inspired by Venus and Eros.Yeah, it seems like I was reading about this here somewhere. I think it was in one of the books of mine you didn't care for? You know, by Arianna Stassinopoulos? And by the way, Arianna is another name for Ariadne isn't it? Hey, can I have a number 4 please? This is what he said was the most highest and inspiring. I agree.


Now Pythia was introduced in Delphi by Dionysus who was not an early deity of the greek pantheon as I have explained to you in the Bacchae thread. In Greek the word prophet : mantis and the word menomai( being in a state of mania) have the same root. So, the maenads symbolize exactly this aspect of the deityPythia? I thought that had something to do with Apollo? You know, the Pythian games, instituted after Apollo slew the mighty Python (or, was that Monty? :D), the beloved serpent of Hera? Hmm ...


Why they were female? The explanation has to do with sympathetic magic mostly rather than the reason you give. The dances of the maenads that in many cases took place on the mountains and during winter are rituals of fertility.Women also symbolize life. And the Maenads can rage through my mind anytime they want. In fact they quite often do! ;)


Behave yourself Denis or I will go start a thread about Middle East in your forum and you won't like that. ;) Is that a threat or a promise? :D Of course it is pretty dead over there ...