Proposed law would give second-class status to converted Jews

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1154520.html

The right-wing Israeli political party, of which Israel's Foreign Minister is a member of, has proposed a bill to Israel's parliament which would strip Jewish converts of the ability to come to Israel under the Right of Return.

Only those born Jews..or descended from Jews by birth, would be able to do such, if this bill is passed into law.

Today, anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent or who is a convert to Judaism, can come to Israel. This law was made to grant protection to anyone who could have been persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws.

Now, some right-wing Jews clearly want to give second-class status to Jews by conversion...even though the Jewish law is clear...that anyone who converts to Judaism under traditional rules...is a JEW.

I hope and pray..this bill does not become law.

[The True Scotsman]

You'd think Israel could use all the support they could get.

[Manopolus]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1154520.html

The right-wing Israeli political party, of which Israel's Foreign Minister is a member of, has proposed a bill to Israel's parliament which would strip Jewish converts of the ability to come to Israel under the Right of Return.

Only those born Jews..or descended from Jews by birth, would be able to do such, if this bill is passed into law.

Today, anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent or who is a convert to Judaism, can come to Israel. This law was made to grant protection to anyone who could have been persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws.

Now, some right-wing Jews clearly want to give second-class status to Jews by conversion...even though the Jewish law is clear...that anyone who converts to Judaism under traditional rules...is a JEW.

I hope and pray..this bill does not become law.

It's not much different than other country's immigration laws. Why should believing in a particular religion give you this right? Furthermore, can the conversion to the religion be falsified?

Most importantly, is Israel a fundamentalist government where the religion controls the law? If not, why should your beliefs have anything to do with how the law treats you? Why should a converted Jew be treated any different than an Atheist by the government? Or a muslim?Ancestry, however, is considered a path to citizenship in many countries.

(added) Also note that I don't have the right to suddenly decide I'm a Native American and go live on a reservation, here in the U.S.A. -- and I DO have a great grandparent who was a Blackfoot.

[Earthborn]

It's not much different than other country's immigration laws. Why should believing in a particular religion give you this right?I think most other countries immigration laws don't discriminate on religion at all, so it seems quite different.

Furthermore, can the conversion to the religion be falsified?There used to be an organisation that was reputed to be very good at distinguishing Jews from conversos. And nobody expects them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHGOl-jfUK0), least of all in Israel.

If not, why should your beliefs have anything to do with how the law treats you?Why indeed. There is just this thing with Israel being a "Jewish Nation".

Ancestry, however, is considered a path to citizenship in many countries.Really? Which countries?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Very interesting, because (as noted) the Jewish religion explicitly prohibits making such a distinction. The real issue is the validity of non-Orthodox conversions.

Please note two things about Israeli immigration law:
1) The "law of return" was always nationalist not religious and also applied to some people not Jewish by religious law who had Jewish ancestry.
2) Israel allows quite a bit non-Jewish immigration under more conventional immigration laws.

The real action is taking place outside of Israel (mostly the USA), where large religious but non-Orthodox Jewish communities make a lot of converts for marriage purposes.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Doesn't Ireland have a "law of return" alongside other immigration?

It's not that outre a concept.

[Moss]

Germany also has a law of return for people of German ancestry. Which led to a big immigration wave of people from the former Soviet Union.

[Thunder]

Germany, Ireland, and other countries do give special preferences to folks of Gerrman or Irish descent, to immigrate and gain citizenship.

Hell..you can become a citizen of Ireland as long as you have one Irish grandparent. This is identical to Israel's law.

Lots of other European countries have similar laws.

But, the point it, Israel's amended Law of Return was made so that anyone who could be persecuted as a Jew...could seek instant refuge in Israel.

By changing this law, Israel is suggesting that converted Jews are not TRUE Jews..and cannot suffer from persecution. Only Jews by blood are TRUE Jews and can be persecuted.

Gross.

[Abdul Alhazred]

The system of "proportional representation" gives small religious parties disproportionate power.

When stories like this come up, always remember that most Israelis (including "right wingers") are not OK with this stuff.

[ddt]

The system of "proportional representation" gives small religious parties disproportionate power.

When stories like this come up, always remember that most Israelis (including "right wingers") are not OK with this stuff.

While I agree with the latter, blaming it on proportional representation is not right. The Israeli political landscape happens to be such that minor (religious) political parties are needed for a majority coalition, but this is not representative of PR worldwide. And personally, I'd prefer the Israeli landscape with 10+ parties with recognizable standpoints above the US system with two parties which can't even agree on that. Finally, Yisrael Beiteinu, the party that proposes this, is neither religious nor (now) small.

[Abdul Alhazred]

If they can break out of the religious coalition situation, all the better. But that's how it is now.

[TimCallahan]

Someone should point out to the proponents of the proposed law that Ruth, according to the Bible an ancestor of David, would have been denied Jewish status had it been in effect in her time. This would be particularly pointed, since these conservatives would likely accept Ruth as historical.

[Cainkane1]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1154520.html

The right-wing Israeli political party, of which Israel's Foreign Minister is a member of, has proposed a bill to Israel's parliament which would strip Jewish converts of the ability to come to Israel under the Right of Return.

Only those born Jews..or descended from Jews by birth, would be able to do such, if this bill is passed into law.

Today, anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent or who is a convert to Judaism, can come to Israel. This law was made to grant protection to anyone who could have been persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws.

Now, some right-wing Jews clearly want to give second-class status to Jews by conversion...even though the Jewish law is clear...that anyone who converts to Judaism under traditional rules...is a JEW.

I hope and pray..this bill does not become law.
Several years ago there was a proposal not to allow reform Jews to become Israeli citizens. The situation in Israel is getting tense. A young Jewish girl with blue eyes wanted to convert to a more conservative form of judaism and was told by the Rabbi she had to have brown eyes to be a true jew.

[Manopolus]

Germany, Ireland, and other countries do give special preferences to folks of Gerrman or Irish descent, to immigrate and gain citizenship.

Hell..you can become a citizen of Ireland as long as you have one Irish grandparent. This is identical to Israel's law.

Lots of other European countries have similar laws.

But, the point it, Israel's amended Law of Return was made so that anyone who could be persecuted as a Jew...could seek instant refuge in Israel.

By changing this law, Israel is suggesting that converted Jews are not TRUE Jews..and cannot suffer from persecution. Only Jews by blood are TRUE Jews and can be persecuted.

Gross.

You are not necessarily opposed to objective meaning of the law itself, but are opposed to what the CHANGE in the law symbolically represents. Did I get that right? Or am I off base?

[Doghouse Reilly]

Several years ago there was a proposal not to allow reform Jews to become Israeli citizens. The situation in Israel is getting tense. A young Jewish girl with blue eyes wanted to convert to a more conservative form of judaism and was told by the Rabbi she had to have brown eyes to be a true jew.

Citation, please, for the story of the blue-eyed girl.

[Manopolus]

Germany also has a law of return for people of German ancestry. Which led to a big immigration wave of people from the former Soviet Union.

Yeah, I was thinking of Germany as well when I made the initial statement. I was over there with the Army for a while when I found this out.