Legislation to ban salt in NYC restaurants

[Greg_in_CO]

First trans fats, now our beloved NaCl!

http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/api/html/bill/A10129

I'll go out on a limb that this guy hasn't been around a kitchen much in his life or he'd know there's more to most food preparation than throwing something in a pan and scraping it out when it's hot enough. Sheesh.

[Arus808]

wow. just wow.

[TX50]

They'll be banning food in restaurants next.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

They'll be banning food in restaurants next.

So we will all have to eat at McDonald's? :scared:

[Bob Blaylock]

There's really nothing surprising here. This would only be the latest step in many in a recent movement that is based on getting Big Brother to dictate what we are or are not allowed to eat; or what we are or are not allowed be served in restaurants.

Consider the recent thread on banning high-fructose corn syrup. I tried (but alas, did not succeed) to find some older threads that I remember on this forum about laws having been passed in various localities banning the use of certain kinds of fats, and dictating that restaurants must display the calorie content next to the price, in equally-prominent figures, on their menus.

Now salt is a target. This is the natural progression of this movement.

If this continues, it won't be long before we're down to some narrow list of bland, unappealing, government-approved food products, which will be the only things that restaurants are allowed to serve.

No more hamburgers, no more french fries, no more milkshakes; just some flavorless tofu sandwich on whole wheat bread with no condiments.

[Greg_in_CO]

If this continues, it won't be long before we're down to some narrow list of bland, unappealing, government-approved food products, which will be the only things that restaurants are allowed to serve.


Sort of like in the movie Repo Man (1984) where Emilio Estevez eats out of a can with a black and white label stating "Food."

[tesscaline]

Please tell me this is just proposed and it hasn't passed yet... Please? Please??

I don't want to live in demolition man world.

/cry

[sadhatter]

Sort of like in the movie Repo Man (1984) where Emilio Estevez eats out of a can with a black and white label stating "Food."

" what do you mean your a suburban punk just like me."

" i know, but somehow i still blame....society"

Ahh, the good old days of punk.

Feels like an old man.

[PhantomWolf]

I guess the person responsible for this inane idea doesn't realise that people tend to add more salt to an unsalted meal to get the right taste, than would be added via cooking with it in the first place.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Weeeeelllll... there's my local news of the day today, isn't there?

Good thing I'm recently eating more and more at home.

And now if you'll excuse me, I gotta practice piano. I can only deal with a limited amount of bureaucratic BS per day.

[fullflavormenthol]

It isn't like salt is something people need to survive of anything...

What is amusing is that there are dishes that cannot be made without using salt. Baking goes out the window. Good luck getting Chow Mein in NYC if this passes. Miso Soup will be sold in back alley sushi bars for three times its regular price on the black market.

I really hate this nanny state crap.

[Cavemonster]

Yes wow. One state senator proposed something stupid that will never pass.
They're taking away our freedoms!

[Schrodinger's Cat]

this is the most ridiculous things ever. Are americans getting too much sodium? Yes, but NOT from just using table salt. The huge surge in sodium intake comes from processed foods and soda. It makes zero sense to ban table salt as opposed to soda or processed foods (not that I'm advocating banning those either).

This is really going to drastically effect freshly made food anyways, because processed foods served by restaurants are pre prepared, and will have sodium already added. And these are the products which are more likely to have a very high sodium count than food made fresh by the chef. Sure sometimes they add salt to the processed food anyways, but even without that additive, your averaged pre prepared food is still going to have far more salt than a freshly made salted meal.

At first I thought this was banning PEOPLE from using it, but now I see it's chefs are banned from using it, and people can add what they want.

My sister is a professional chef. There is nothing more beloved by a chef than butter and salt. I suspect a culinary riot if this happens.

Which it won't. As cave says, anyone can propose any stupid bill. Doesn't mean it will pass

[PhantomWolf]

Not to mention, are they trying to regulate how much salt the chefs put in the food? Because for instance, say I get one meal, and my husband gets another. My meal with my added salt may still have far less salt than the amount originally put in my husband's meal by his chef. So unless you're regulating what the chefs put in the food, it makes no sense to regulate what *I* put in my food.

Did you actually read the link? The proposal was to prevent chef's adding any salt at all, meaning that the diner has to add it themselves, not to ban table salt that the diner adds.

[Prometheus]

this is the most ridiculous things ever. Are americans getting too much sodium? Yes, but NOT from just using table salt. The huge surge in sodium intake comes from processed foods and soda. It makes zero sense to ban table salt as opposed to soda or processed foods (not that I'm advocating banning those either).

At first I thought this was banning PEOPLE from using it, but now I see it's chefs are banned from using it, and people can add what they want.

My sister is a professional chef. There is nothing more beloved by a chef than butter and salt. I suspect a culinary riot if this happens.

Which it won't. As cave says, anyone can propose any stupid bill. Doesn't mean it will pass

The proposed bill has nothing to do with table salt. It only bans chefs from using any salt at all in preparing customers' food. Not that there's anything less stupid about that, however.

[ponderingturtle]

I guess the person responsible for this inane idea doesn't realise that people tend to add more salt to an unsalted meal to get the right taste, than would be added via cooking with it in the first place.

Also the issue tends to be with packaged food and not restaurant food to my knowledge. Sure premade food often has enough sodium to give people with sodium related hypertension.

[fullflavormenthol]

Yes wow. One state senator proposed something stupid that will never pass.
They're taking away our freedoms!
Yeah. Like the ban on trans fat that was laughed at and never passed.

[Soapy Sam]

New law bans "Tony Chachere's" in Louisiana restaurants.
South cecedes from Union.

[Greg_in_CO]

I suspect a culinary riot if this happens.



That was my first thought. While not a chef, I like to cook and know that most dishes that are not seasoned during preparation will not taste right (or even very good in many cases) by adding salt to the finished product.

[Aitch]

It isn't like salt is something people need to survive of anything...

What is amusing is that there are dishes that cannot be made without using salt. Baking goes out the window. Good luck getting Chow Mein in NYC if this passes. Miso Soup will be sold in back alley sushi bars for three times its regular price on the black market.


Bearing in mind that I regularly bake salt-free bread (I am on a low salt diet) and that none of my cake/tea-bread recipes contain any salt, you may want to re-think yhat statement.

[Drudgewire]

" what do you mean your a suburban punk just like me."

" i know, but somehow i still blame....society"

Ahh, the good old days of punk.

Feels like an old man.


"That's why there aint a repo man I know that don't take speed." :cool:

[Cavemonster]

Yeah. Like the ban on trans fat that was laughed at and never passed.

Note that this bill doesn't even have a real sponsor.

Do you have any idea how much stupid legislation gets proposed? Especially on a state level?

[commandlinegamer]

Maybe this is simply the senator making it look like he's doing something to earn his pay.

I've never added salt to food at the dinner table, but it would be pretty impossible to cook without it.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

phantom wolf: read my post

Prometheus,
Well I just meant table salt as in salt available on hand to the chef at the moment, as opposed to salt/sodium being added to the product prior to it arriving in the restaurant.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If this continues, it won't be long before we're down to some narrow list of bland, unappealing, government-approved food products, which will be the only things that restaurants are allowed to serve.

Will Soylent Green be on the approved list?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I for one welcome our new food overlords.

[dudalb]

There's really nothing surprising here. This would only be the latest step in many in a recent movement that is based on getting Big Brother to dictate what we are or are not allowed to eat; or what we are or are not allowed be served in restaurants.

Consider the recent thread on banning high-fructose corn syrup. I tried (but alas, did not succeed) to find some older threads that I remember on this forum about laws having been passed in various localities banning the use of certain kinds of fats, and dictating that restaurants must display the calorie content next to the price, in equally-prominent figures, on their menus.

Now salt is a target. This is the natural progression of this movement.

If this continues, it won't be long before we're down to some narrow list of bland, unappealing, government-approved food products, which will be the only things that restaurants are allowed to serve.

No more hamburgers, no more french fries, no more milkshakes; just some flavorless tofu sandwich on whole wheat bread with no condiments.


Just what Government regulation of the food industry do you approve of?
I agree the NY bill is just plain stupid, but you seem to wan to get rid of all governement oversight.
It seems to me that giving the calorie count of menu items is no worse then listing the ingrediants on canned foods.

[PhantomWolf]

phantom wolf: read my post.

I did, you changed your post 12 minutes after I posted showing that you got it wrong.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

So I just called my sister, who is a gourmet chef. She was at work in the kitchen when I called her. I told her that this legislation was proposed, and then she told the rest of the chefs in the kitchen...and I could hear the entire kitchen start screaming.

She said three things:

1. This will never pass (of course)

2. This is ridiculous because salt isn't just a matter of making things taste salty. Many foods NEED to be prepared with salt just in order to be able to bring out the flavors in them. Adding salt later yourself does not have the same effect (i.e. deserts. A chocolate cake needs salt. You cannot then pour your own salt over a chocolate cake and get the same effect)

3. Even if it was passed, there is not a self respecting chef alive who would follow the law

4. She wants to find out whoever proposed this legislation, track them down, and punch them in the nose

[Foolmewunz]

This is ridiculous. I think/hope the guy's just making a gesture to show the home county folks that he's doing something.

Salt functions as a binder for flavours. It also adds saltiness, but the chief role in taste if you're not looking for a salty coating (like I like my French Fries) is that binding.

I also read somewhere (on the internet, so it's got to be true) that the dangers of salt to your health has been way over-emphasized. And anecdotaly, I have been going through a course of treatment for heart and artery disease and hypertension, and the doctors (plural - about seven in total) have never even mentioned salt intake.

[Soapy Sam]

Actually, I never use salt when cooking and very very rarely add it to food at the table. I seem to acquire enough from store bought meals or at work. Still, the idea of legislating against it seems a bit loopy.

[Damien Evans]

So I just called my sister, who is a gourmet chef. She was at work in the kitchen when I called her. I told her that this legislation was proposed, and then she told the rest of the chefs in the kitchen...and I could hear the entire kitchen start screaming.

She said three things:

1. This will never pass (of course)

2. This is ridiculous because salt isn't just a matter of making things taste salty. Many foods NEED to be prepared with salt just in order to be able to bring out the flavors in them. Adding salt later yourself does not have the same effect (i.e. deserts. A chocolate cake needs salt. You cannot then pour your own salt over a chocolate cake and get the same effect)

3. Even if it was passed, there is not a self respecting chef alive who would follow the law

4. She wants to find out whoever proposed this legislation, track them down, and punch them in the nose

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.

This one does (http://www.cacaoweb.net/easy-chocolate-cake.html)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Marvel-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Grandmas-Chocolate-Marvel-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Cake-V/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.hersheys.com/recipes/recipes/detail.asp?id=184)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sandys-Chocolate-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/threelayer_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/glazedcc.htm)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Layer-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/choctown_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/fatfree_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.bestmoistchocolatecakerecipe.com/)

I have to leave. Shall I post more later? :)

[roger]

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.I haven't a clue (http://www.hersheys.com/recipes/recipes/detail.asp?id=184).

Not (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Black-Magic-Cake/Detail.aspx) a (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/German-Sweet-Chocolate-Cake-I/Detail.aspx) single (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Plum-Pudding-Cake/Detail.aspx) clue (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Oat-Snack-Cake/Detail.aspx).


And those were the very first things that popped up by googling "chocolate cake recipe". No hunting around required.

[lector]

I also read somewhere (on the internet, so it's got to be true) that the dangers of salt to your health has been way over-emphasized. And anecdotaly, I have been going through a course of treatment for heart and artery disease and hypertension, and the doctors (plural - about seven in total) have never even mentioned salt intake.

So you have fools for doctors.

An excess of salt (consistently more than 1500 - 2000 mg per day, depending on whom you read) will cause dangerous hypertension via fluid retention in approximately 10% of the people consuming such amounts. Problem is, there's no good medical test to separate those who are sodium-sensitive from those who aren't. So what do you do?

In the US, folks who have other coronary risk factors or who, like me, have had a heart attack are advised to follow a low-sodium diet. There's no downside to it, other than time spent reading labels & analyzing one's foods, & potentially a big upside.

That said, I believe that this legislation is completely idiotic & hope that it is promptly squelched. I agree that it represents the worst of the nanny-state impulse.

[boyntonstu]

Ever taste bread made with no salt?

[Loss Leader]

You know that a piece of food legislation is just crazy when the Center for Science in the Public Interest doesn't support it.


Note that this bill doesn't even have a real sponsor.


It has three; Brooklyn Assemblymembers Felix Ortiz, Margaret Markey and the fantastically named N. Nick Perry.


Do you have any idea how much stupid legislation gets proposed? Especially on a state level?


Considering how little the New York State legislature actually gets done, it is amazing to me the things they choose to care about.

[Madalch]

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.
Just a guess- because all the recipes you've seen for chocolate cake have one main ingredient (cake mix from the Betty Crocker box)? The salt's hidden in that.

[lector]

Ever taste bread made with no salt?

Actually, yes.

Once you're on a low salt diet, it can taste good, depending on what sort of bread it is.

Not that bread made with salt doesn't' taste better.

Oatmeal made without a pinch of salt is totally loathsome.

[Cavemonster]

You know that a piece of food legislation is just crazy when the Center for Science in the Public Interest doesn't support it.

It has three; Brooklyn Assemblymembers Felix Ortiz, Margaret Markey and the fantastically named N. Nick Perry.



Ah, I was just going by the OP linked .gov site, which didn't list a primary sponsor.

That said, judging by the popular reception, I would be shocked if this stood a snowball's chance of passing.

[Denver]

I like how the fast food restaurants all have their sodium content listed for all their meals. I wouldn't mind having this information available in other food venues. I think that would make more sense than just banning salt.

But, is that possible? I suspect for mom-and-pops, it would be too expensive to determine that. And for many places, it may even vary from dish to dish.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Damien,
Yes, I'm sure you know better than my gourmet chef sister who was trained at the top chef school in North America and has worked exclusively at 4 and 5 star hotels and restaurants.
Oh, also, I own the Joy of Cooking. The most used cookbook in America. It's chocolate cake recipe calls for salt.
Did you write your post JUST to be a contentious *****?
Do not use alternate spelling to get around the auto-censor.

Phantom,
That's strange, because I corrected it immediately. Within two minutes. In fact, when I corrected it, my post was still showing as the last post posted. I was wondering how you were even able to quote me. Forum time lapse problems? Ah well, not important. I was wrong, after all, in my original post. =-)

madalch,
LOL


And as for lector's post, loving salt is just fine. I love salt, I mean, I just love it. But I eat almost no processed foods. 95% of food I eat is made from scratch by me using fresh ingredients. And I don't drink soda. If that's the way you live, unless you have some medical condition, you can pretty much use salt to your heart's content.

The reason Americans are so over sodium-ized is because of the massive consumption of processed foods and soda. These products have more sodium in them than any person would put in their own, prepared food.

[jon]

Please tell me this is just proposed and it hasn't passed yet... Please? Please??

I don't want to live in demolition man world.

/cry

I wish this was just satire... New York could go from one of the best cities to eat in to somewhere where one heads outside city boundaries to get a decent meal :(

If chefs can't season food in a restaurant kitchen, wouldn't bringing in pre-prepared junk (which will at least be seasoned, probably heavily) appeal more, too? More junk food - the solution to all the Western world's health problems...

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Jon,
It wouldn't matter anyways. There are a million laws on the book already about food preparation that no chef my sister and her chef friends have ever known actually follows. I don't see how this would be any different.

[Ducky]

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.

This one does (http://www.cacaoweb.net/easy-chocolate-cake.html)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Marvel-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Grandmas-Chocolate-Marvel-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Cake-V/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.hersheys.com/recipes/recipes/detail.asp?id=184)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sandys-Chocolate-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/threelayer_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/glazedcc.htm)

This one does (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Layer-Cake/Detail.aspx)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/choctown_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.recipes4cakes.com/chocolatecakes/fatfree_cake.htm)

This one does (http://www.bestmoistchocolatecakerecipe.com/)

I have to leave. Shall I post more later? :)

I haven't a clue (http://www.hersheys.com/recipes/recipes/detail.asp?id=184).

Not (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Black-Magic-Cake/Detail.aspx) a (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/German-Sweet-Chocolate-Cake-I/Detail.aspx) single (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Plum-Pudding-Cake/Detail.aspx) clue (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Oat-Snack-Cake/Detail.aspx).


And those were the very first things that popped up by googling "chocolate cake recipe". No hunting around required.

Quoted for being the fastest and most thorough smack-down I've seen in a while.

Hilarious.

[WildCat]

OMFG, this will surely lead to... BACKALLEY SALTINGS!!!111!11111!!!!

[fuelair]

I have to assume the idiots involved with the bill do not cook.
I am sure there is some bakery product (just staying in one area) that does not require salt in it's preparation but I really can't think of one.
I would also assume that this eliminates brining processes in the processing of many meats.
And, as a chemisty person, unless it spells out sodium chloride, it opens a vault of dumb-ass on the state beyond just basic idiocy.. (Note: chemisty is what I spelled, it is what I meant):D

[dudalb]

You know that a piece of food legislation is just crazy when the Center for Science in the Public Interest doesn't support it.





It has three; Brooklyn Assemblymembers Felix Ortiz, Margaret Markey and the fantastically named N. Nick Perry.





Considering how little the New York State legislature actually gets done, it is amazing to me the things they choose to care about.


No S--- you know it's crazy when the Center For Science In the PUblic Interest does not support it.,since the Center is notorious for being sympathetic to just about every "Nanny Government" proposol that comes along.

If Bob Blaylock is at one extreme of the issue, then the C.F.S.P.I. is at the other.

[WildCat]

Really? Then explain why no recipe I've ever seen for chocolate cake uses salt.
Read the ingredients on the box of cake mix, it's already in there. I'm assuming you never made one from scratch?

[WildCat]

Ah, I was just going by the OP linked .gov site, which didn't list a primary sponsor.

That said, judging by the popular reception, I would be shocked if this stood a snowball's chance of passing.
No one thought the Chicago City Council was really stupid enough to ban foix gras either...

[WildCat]

I wish this was just satire... New York could go from one of the best cities to eat in to somewhere where one heads outside city boundaries to get a decent meal :(

If chefs can't season food in a restaurant kitchen, wouldn't bringing in pre-prepared junk (which will at least be seasoned, probably heavily) appeal more, too? More junk food - the solution to all the Western world's health problems...
This affects the entire state, not just the city. How are the restaurants in Newark? ;)

[dudalb]

I would love to get Anthony Bourdain's comments on this.

Vis a vis the Stupid Chicago Foix Gras law, I think the Animal Cruelty angle was what allowed that to squeak through. The New York Salt law does not have that going for it.

Besides, a Certain Italian American Fraternal Organization has so much invested in the Restaurant Trade in New York,(both legit and not so legit investments) that if it looks as looked as though it would pass some of the sponsors would get a little visit from a "Couple of the Boys".:D

[Ducky]

I would love to get Anthony Bourdain's comments on this.

Vis a vis the Stupid Chicago Foix Gras law, I think the Animal Cruelty angle was what allowed that to squeak through. The New York Salt law does not have that going for it.

Think of all the adorable salt crystals butchered and mangled in the making of that salt! They literally have to grind those crystals into bits!

THE HORROR!

[Cavemonster]

No one thought the Chicago City Council was really stupid enough to ban foix gras either...

That is indeed a silly law.
But I think there's an order of magnitude between passing a city wide law banning a luxury most people never interact with and a state wide ban on a staple of cooking as we know it.

[Loss Leader]

This affects the entire state, not just the city. How are the restaurants in Newark?

I can only vouch for the airport ... which I cannot vouch for.

[WildCat]

Brooklyn Assemblymembers Felix Ortiz
Wow, this guy is quite the busybody! http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=051&sh=sponsor

A nanny state is his dream...

[PhantomWolf]

Wow, this guy is quite the busybody! http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=051&sh=sponsor

A nanny state is his dream...

Wholely Smokestack Batman.... Have you really looked at some of his ideas?

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02628
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02720
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A04286
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06318
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06360

[ponderingturtle]

This is ridiculous. I think/hope the guy's just making a gesture to show the home county folks that he's doing something.

Salt functions as a binder for flavours. It also adds saltiness, but the chief role in taste if you're not looking for a salty coating (like I like my French Fries) is that binding.

I also read somewhere (on the internet, so it's got to be true) that the dangers of salt to your health has been way over-emphasized. And anecdotaly, I have been going through a course of treatment for heart and artery disease and hypertension, and the doctors (plural - about seven in total) have never even mentioned salt intake.

Also the important role salt plays in osmotic pressure and moving water around in food.

Transfats have much better arguments against them and not as many good arguments for them. After all you can always use lard.

[ponderingturtle]

So you have fools for doctors.

An excess of salt (consistently more than 1500 - 2000 mg per day, depending on whom you read) will cause dangerous hypertension via fluid retention in approximately 10% of the people consuming such amounts. Problem is, there's no good medical test to separate those who are sodium-sensitive from those who aren't. So what do you do?

I am not sure that this is true though. It is true for those with sodium related hypertension sure, but I am not at all convinced that most people can't deal fine with excess salt. Provided they have fresh water and such.

[lector]

Wholely Smokestack Batman.... Have you really looked at some of his ideas?

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02628
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02720
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A04286
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06318
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A06360

Here's another good one:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A05701

[ponderingturtle]

Outlawing kosher food preparation, and corned beef in NY?

If I have anything to say about it there will be riots if this passes.

Ban the Reuban in NYC? Head must roll if that happens.

[Foolmewunz]

If they outlaw salt, pretty soon only the outlaws will have pretzels - or something like that.

Lector - sorry, but you're wrong. If you're one of those 10%(and that's just an estimate) who are salt-sensitive, sure... watch your salt intake. But I'm not on that list. And the doctors are far from incompetent (I'm accepting as evidence the fact that my main cardiologist has got my BP down from 216/155 to 118/94, and that I just came through a triple bypass with flying colors) - they're just in the camp that doesn't place as much importance on salt intake as the camp that does.

And there is a primitive test... suck down a salt tablet or two and check the BP every 15 minutes for two hours. Mine didn't budge upwards at all, and in fact went down because I was sitting around reading while waiting for the clock to tick by.

The Great Salt Debates have been going on for fifty years. You can find written support for any ludicrous position you want to take, because there are tens of thousands of papers on the topic.

[timhau]

Besides, a Certain Italian American Fraternal Organization has so much invested in the Restaurant Trade in New York,(both legit and not so legit investments) that if it looks as looked as though it would pass some of the sponsors would get a little visit from a "Couple of the Boys".:D

They may do it anyway. I'm told that in Rome (an old salt-trade center), asking for a shaker of table salt is one of the worst insults you can hurl towards the cook.

I bet Dino and Luigi Vercotti (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNj1dXi-z0M) wouldn't be happy.

[Soapy Sam]

Actually, yes.

Once you're on a low salt diet, it can taste good, depending on what sort of bread it is.

Not that bread made with salt doesn't' taste better.

Oatmeal made without a pinch of salt is totally loathsome.


I have not used salt in porridge since...(thinks) around 1983 or thereabouts. I grant you it took a bit of getting used to, at first but it's really just what you are accustomed to. And I'm a Scotsman, the noo!

[Damien Evans]

I haven't a clue (http://www.hersheys.com/recipes/recipes/detail.asp?id=184).

Not (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Black-Magic-Cake/Detail.aspx) a (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/German-Sweet-Chocolate-Cake-I/Detail.aspx) single (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Plum-Pudding-Cake/Detail.aspx) clue (http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Chocolate-Oat-Snack-Cake/Detail.aspx).


And those were the very first things that popped up by googling "chocolate cake recipe". No hunting around required.

Ok, now I've seen some. However, that does nothing to prove that Chocolate Cake needs salt. None of the recipes I use have salt and they turn out pretty good.

[Damien Evans]

Just a guess- because all the recipes you've seen for chocolate cake have one main ingredient (cake mix from the Betty Crocker box)? The salt's hidden in that.

Hell no. Packet Cake is terrible.

[Damien Evans]

Damien,
Yes, I'm sure you know better than my gourmet chef sister who was trained at the top chef school in North America and has worked exclusively at 4 and 5 star hotels and restaurants.
Oh, also, I own the Joy of Cooking. The most used cookbook in America. It's chocolate cake recipe calls for salt.
Did you write your post JUST to be a contentious *****?
Do not use alternate spelling to get around the auto-censor.


My, aren't you the angry one.

[Damien Evans]

Read the ingredients on the box of cake mix, it's already in there. I'm assuming you never made one from scratch?

I only make them from scratch.

[HansMustermann]

1. While I'm not too hot on this banning salt, I can _somewhat_ see a point in letting people salt as much as they want. There are a lot of joints at least here, where you can easily get tens of times the daily RDA of salt in just one serving.

2. The comparison to trans-fats is somewhat misguiding IMHO. While you do need some sodium in your intake (way too little is actually worse than too much) and there's the issue of taste too, your body's need for trans-fats is exactly zero and the actual fat doesn't really taste any different from any other fat. You know, due to how the taste-buds work.

But basically if you had a biological need for trans-fat, we'd be extinct before even spreading, because that's a recent synthetic product. Natural trans-fats are a very small percentage of the fat in most foods, and absent entirely in others, so it's unsurprising it's not one of the kinds which the body really needs.

Trans-fats or hydrogenated fats, is what happens when you add hydrogen to natural fats, converting some of the double C=C bonds into single C-C bonds. I.e., making them more saturated.

The _only_ reason for that is that the result has a higher melting point. Those long zig-zag polymer chains basically don't slide well past each other, and it takes a lot more theremal agitation to get them to really flow. In a sense, the same reason why long polymer chains are used in synthetic fibres for clothing.

Unfortunately that's also the downside: they tend to stick together like, well, like a stick of margarine instead of flowing. They do the same on the inside of your arteries.

At any rate, they produce a measurable health risk and no known benefit for the body, even after extensive medical testing. And they're there only because it's cheaper to transport the cooking fat in a non-liquid state. That's all. You'll risk a coronary to save a cent or two.

I'm at a loss for how forbidding those is even remotely comparable to forbidding salt.

[daenku32]

Wouldn't this only be an issue for businesses who make their food from scratch? Fast food is preprocessed, and all they do it heat it up.

[ponderingturtle]

1. While I'm not too hot on this banning salt, I can _somewhat_ see a point in letting people salt as much as they want. There are a lot of joints at least here, where you can easily get tens of times the daily RDA of salt in just one serving.


Sure there are good arguments to be made for having them display the amount of sodium in their food, but that is different from limiting it.

[aggle-rithm]

And they're not banning dihydrogen oxide? That stuff'll kill you, man.

[aggle-rithm]

Ever taste bread made with no salt?

YES. My parents were on a no-sodium diet for high blood pressure when I was in high school.

They eventually decided they would rather just die.

[timhau]

I have eaten bread that was made without salt. I don't remember tasting it.

[daenku32]

I have eaten bread that was made without salt. I don't remember tasting it.

What if this is about preparation of the food, not the actual act of making it?

[BobTheDonkey]

What if this is about preparation of the food, not the actual act of making it?

How do you prepare food without making it?

Food prep = cooking ;)

[daenku32]

How do you prepare food without making it?

Food prep = cooking ;)

I prepare food all the time for my kids, even though I can't cook worth a damn. =)

Here is an interesting take on the whole circus:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/03/why-ny-salt-ban-proposal-is-a-good-idea/37342/

It gets people talking about salt.

[Aitch]

Ever taste bread made with no salt?

Tasted? If you'd bothered to read my post, you'd know I actually bake it.

And it tastes fine.

ETA: Just checked the first couple of books on baking to hand - neither of them use salt in their recipes for chocolate cake. Nor any other cake for that matter.

[HansMustermann]

Sure there are good arguments to be made for having them display the amount of sodium in their food, but that is different from limiting it.

TBH, I don't see a fundamental problem with just letting people salt it as they like it. It wouldn't prevent people who like their food really salty, from eating really salty food. It's not like anyone forbids you from eating salty, if that's your preference. And it would make it easier for the rest of us to find something to eat on the lunch break that won't blow the sodium quota for a month.

I mean, I still remember ordering some food from a local joint, that wasn't just over-salted, but it was at the point where the sensation was that it "burns" the mouth for lack of a better description. And don't even get me started about the french fries that came with it.

Especially with the number of restaurants where the main profit is made with the drinks, it's hard to not get the idea that there might be some ulterior motive to the unhealthy salt levels too. Though in that particular case, since I wasn't eating it in their shop, I still wonder why.

[Sherman Bay]

Pssst...pot, crack, salt packets? I got what you want right here...{reaches in trench coat pocket}

[ponderingturtle]

TBH, I don't see a fundamental problem with just letting people salt it as they like it. It wouldn't prevent people who like their food really salty, from eating really salty food. It's not like anyone forbids you from eating salty, if that's your preference. And it would make it easier for the rest of us to find something to eat on the lunch break that won't blow the sodium quota for a month.

The thing is that for example it would seem to outlaw the entire Rueban sandwich.

The rye bread has salt in it, you can't make sauerkraut with out using salt, you can't make corned beef with out salt, the swiss cheese is made with salt. Maybe the russian dressing doesn't have salt in it but that is it.

Hell you can't make pickles

None of those you can fix by adding salt at the end. Salt has many many effects all through the cooking process. As I already sited you can not kosher meat with out salt, that is what kosher salt is for after all.

So you just have to look at all the food that you would be outlawing and there is not much left to eat.

[HansMustermann]

Hmm, ok, that's a darn good point.

[GreyICE]

I only make them from scratch.

Isn't there a point in an epic smackdown where the victim should tuck his tail between his legs, admit that his comment was nothing resembling sane, and leave? Like "Well guys, I guess I'm wrong, but my mother's chocolate cake recipe didn't have any, so I never used any. In unrelated news, the flavor has always been a tad off. Thanks for the info!"

I don't think these forums have a Don Quixote Award.

If your chocolate cake hasn't had any form of salt (and salt can hide in all sorts of things), it's the closest thing to wrong that a recipe for food can get.

[aggle-rithm]

Isn't there a point in an epic smackdown where the victim should tuck his tail between his legs, admit that his comment was nothing resembling sane, and leave? Like "Well guys, I guess I'm wrong, but my mother's chocolate cake recipe didn't have any, so I never used any. In unrelated news, the flavor has always been a tad off. Thanks for the info!"

I don't think these forums have a Don Quixote Award.

If your chocolate cake hasn't had any form of salt (and salt can hide in all sorts of things), it's the closest thing to wrong that a recipe for food can get.

When I worked at an Italian restaurant, a customer came in and said she was allergic to garlic, and wanted to know what we had with no garlic in it.

The waiter thought for a while, then told her: "Iced tea."

[Cavemonster]

There is a wonderful folktale, similar a bit to king Lear , where the king asks his daughters how much they love him.
"More than silver" say one
"More than gold" says the second
"More than meat loves salt" says the last, and is banished for this supposed lack of sentiment.

She goes on her own adventure, and ends up marrying a prince of a foreign land. One day she sees her father is coming to visit for a banquet and orders that his meal be served without salt.

On tasting the food, he stands up and berates the servers, howls about how horrible the food is. His daughter calmly walks to him and says 'Now you see how much meat loves salt"

[roger]

Ok, now I've seen some. However, that does nothing to prove that Chocolate Cake needs salt. None of the recipes I use have salt and they turn out pretty good.
So, your theory is that all of these recipes just gratuitously puts salt in them even though it has no effect whatsoever? I don't think that stands up to rational thought. It should give you pause that every single recipe I clicked on from google, starting with the first, uses salt.

As I noted elsewhere, yes, you can find substitutions for whatever. But that does not mean "equivalent". You can make muffins with no fats, for example, by replacing the fats with something moist like applesauce. And they are fine muffins - I've made such things just to try it out. But, they are different from the ones with fat (eggs, butter, and the such). And, you know, sometimes you want a nice buttery muffin. Likewise, you can make a pie crust of sorts without butter. It ain't going to be the same as the one made with butter. You could probably make something you could call a croissant without fats, but I wouldn't want to eat it.

Salt is not just a flavoring. It's a part of the chemistry of many recipes. The most obvious example is brining, which relies on the osmotic process. It's also a preservative in fruits in vegetables. It's a necessary component in curing meats. It's often used as a shell for baking - cover a fish with a couple pounds of salt, which you then crack and remove before serving (ie. the fish does not become salty)

And, it's important to baking. From McGee:
Small amounts of salt are incorporatined into batters and doughs for the taste, but both yeast and gluten are also affected by its presence. Salt inhibits yeast activity....By forming strong ionic bonds with side chains on the flour proteins, salt tends to make them less mobile .... by inhibiting the activity of protein-digesting enzymes in the flour, salt prevents the gluten from being weakened into a sticky mass that might retain very little carbon dioxideSalt is used in nearly all cheesemaking. Besides the taste issue (can you imagine shaking salt on cheese at the table!), salt dehydrates the curd, and controls the rate of ripening by inhibiting the activity of the starter bacteria.

In short, we are not arguing that a restaurant could not function without salt, merely that the menu would be changed beyond recognition. Sure, things like chocolate cake would only be modestly altered, but other things would be unrecognizably altered or completely absent. No cheese, nothing pickled, nothing brined (probably all of your poultry is brined in the better restaurants). No sauerkraut. No bacon or other cured meats.

And let's not forget the huge role sodium plays in baking. Eliminating salt does not eliminate sodium. If you aren't using yeast for leavening, then you are using salts in the form of baking soda or baking powder. Good luck baking without all three.

edit: and I should point out I grew up in a nearly salt free house due to high blood pressure in my mother. As a result I cannot tolerate the levels of salt in many things. But you just can't avoid sodium in many things, and salt in others. Pointing out that there are other things that don't have salt misses the point. Most of us don't want to eat those other things as a replacement.

[Ron_Tomkins]

OMFG, this will surely lead to... BACKALLEY SALTINGS!!!111!11111!!!!

And people doing lines of salt in private parties.

[Greg_in_CO]

I like how the fast food restaurants all have their sodium content listed for all their meals. I wouldn't mind having this information available in other food venues. I think that would make more sense than just banning salt.

But, is that possible? I suspect for mom-and-pops, it would be too expensive to determine that. And for many places, it may even vary from dish to dish.

I've relied on DietFacts.com over the years when I've been curious about the nutritional contents of the dishes I've eaten at chain restaurants. I've wondered if this might become a service that independent restaurants could utilize should they ever be required to disclose such data about their menus.

Speaking of the chains, if this legislation had a chance of passing, and I don't think it does, can you imagine the stink they'd raise? When MSNBC ran a story last year on the 10 Saltiest Restaurant dishes in America, Macaroni Grill had three in the top five, the number one dish being their Chicken Portobello which clocked in at 7400 mg of sodium :jaw-dropp

[Greg_in_CO]

When I worked at an Italian restaurant, a customer came in and said she was allergic to garlic, and wanted to know what we had with no garlic in it.

The waiter thought for a while, then told her: "Iced tea."

:D

That reminded me of the Simpsons episode where the family went to a seafood restaurant and seafood-allergic Marge is informed that even the bread has fish in it so she decides to eat the Tic Tacs in her purse for dinner.

[Spindrift]

I just watched a tv cooking show and they added salt to the filling for lemon meringue pie!

The guy is from Brooklyn, I wonder if he has any opposition for his seat because I would think that this could be used pretty effectively against him. Ortiz hates our deli's! He hates our food!

[lector]

If they outlaw salt, pretty soon only the outlaws will have pretzels - or something like that.

Lector - sorry, but you're wrong. If you're one of those 10%(and that's just an estimate) who are salt-sensitive, sure... watch your salt intake. But I'm not on that list. And the doctors are far from incompetent (I'm accepting as evidence the fact that my main cardiologist has got my BP down from 216/155 to 118/94, and that I just came through a triple bypass with flying colors) - they're just in the camp that doesn't place as much importance on salt intake as the camp that does.

And there is a primitive test... suck down a salt tablet or two and check the BP every 15 minutes for two hours. Mine didn't budge upwards at all, and in fact went down because I was sitting around reading while waiting for the clock to tick by.

The Great Salt Debates have been going on for fifty years. You can find written support for any ludicrous position you want to take, because there are tens of thousands of papers on the topic.

Sorry, I was attempting to joke there & I know my tone was off. I should have just shut up.

You're monitoring your BP & that puts you way ahead of the game. Continued good health to you.

I personally find a low-salt diet easy to maintain & it does no harm, so I do it. There's a big difference between low-salt & no-salt, of course. Attempts to legislate salt out of our diets are not only misguided but potentially dangerous IMHO.

[GreyICE]

Sorry, I was attempting to joke there & I know my tone was off. I should have just shut up.

You're monitoring your BP & that puts you way ahead of the game. Continued good health to you.

I personally find a low-salt diet easy to maintain & it does no harm, so I do it. There's a big difference between low-salt & no-salt, of course. Attempts to legislate salt out of our diets are not only misguided but potentially dangerous IMHO.

Also, I think, easy to distinguish from efforts to tell us more about our diets.

On page 1 BobBlaylock misguidedly suggests that calorie displays on menus (and, one assumes, nutrition labels) was an example of dangerous government meddling.

I think there's a clear need to distinguish attempts to tell us more about our diet (to help consumers make choices) from attempts to make choices for those consumers.

[dudalb]

Also, I think, easy to distinguish from efforts to tell us more about our diets.

On page 1 BobBlaylock misguidedly suggests that calorie displays on menus (and, one assumes, nutrition labels) was an example of dangerous government meddling.

I think there's a clear need to distinguish attempts to tell us more about our diet (to help consumers make choices) from attempts to make choices for those consumers.

Agreed. I have no problems with restaurants being required to list certain things on the menu. Blaylock seems to thing that ANY regulation of business is government meddling.
As I stated Blaylock is on one extreme of this issue, and the idiot New York Congressman is on the other.

[Foolmewunz]

I think Roger got the no-salt issue for Damien. (Uh, squawk, that's a Roger, Roger squawk!)

Baking Soda is a salt.

Oh, and I know we have some pastry chef as a member, don't we. I believe that the amount of salt used in baking would be so far from worrisome that it probably could still be used. Don't most recipes call for like an eighth of a teaspoon. I think that's the original "pinch" in grandma's day.

[Praktik]

Did you actually read the link? The proposal was to prevent chef's adding any salt at all, meaning that the diner has to add it themselves, not to ban table salt that the diner adds.

If that was what the bill was saying, chefs would be over the moon. Some are insulted when patrons add salt to a well-prepared meal.

I expect that chefs are probably pretty pissed about the bill as it is, since they should have creative control over their creations.

[Praktik]

There's really nothing surprising here. This would only be the latest step in many in a recent movement that is based on getting Big Brother to dictate what we are or are not allowed to eat; or what we are or are not allowed be served in restaurants.

Big Brother has been at it a while, I'm sure you share my antipathy towards anti-marijuana laws, which is after all, Big Brother tellin us what we can and cannot smoke..;)

[Ron_Tomkins]

This thread needs some flavor.

[Denver]

This thread needs some flavor.

I find it peppered with wisdom.

[Cavemonster]

This thread needs some flavor.

Just give it some thyme.

[Loss Leader]

Just give it some thyme.


Sage advice.

[Ziggurat]

Agreed. I have no problems with restaurants being required to list certain things on the menu.

I do. Not because I'm against disclosure, but because requiring inclusion of stuff like calories imposes a regulatory burden, which has costs. It's easy for McDonalds to include calories for their items: they're standardized from location to location and over time, so the per-customer cost becomes vanishingly small. But that's not the case for a mom-and-pop shop. Should they really have to submit their dishes to a laboratory to determine calorie content? Should they have to do this every time they want to change their menu, or introduce a new dish? Or even just adjust the serving sizes? And who enforces such a requirement? Enforcement doesn't come free either. If restaurants want to include such information, more power to them. And if customers want that information, they can choose to dine at restaurants that provide it. But let people vote with their wallets. We shouldn't have to require this stuff of restaurants. It's nanny-statism, and I want no part of it.

[Loss Leader]

inclusion of stuff like calories imposes a regulatory burden, which has costs.


Presumably, the global costs of the regulation and all of its effects would be less than the benefits to the citizenry of eating better, being healthier, working harder, having fewer sick days, having fewer chronic conditions, extending their working lives and dying later. I am not saying that this particular salt bill would do any of that; only that costs are only one side of the equation that should be considered.

After all, my demanding that you give me a $20 bill has a particularly high cost. However, you cannot rule on whether it's a good idea based only on that. I may be offering you a $50 bill in return.


It's easy for McDonalds to include calories for their items: they're standardized from location to location and over time, so the per-customer cost becomes vanishingly small. But that's not the case for a mom-and-pop shop.


Or, at least, it wouldn't be the case on day 1. But by day 30, I'm betting there are half a dozen companies offering all sorts of computerized services where the restaurant owner can put in the ingredients and it'll spit out the nutrition information. In fact, that sounds like a pretty good idea. If you have $20, I think I can guarantee a $50 return.

[fuelair]

If they outlaw salt, pretty soon only the outlaws will have pretzels - or something like that.

Lector - sorry, but you're wrong. If you're one of those 10%(and that's just an estimate) who are salt-sensitive, sure... watch your salt intake. But I'm not on that list. And the doctors are far from incompetent (I'm accepting as evidence the fact that my main cardiologist has got my BP down from 216/155 to 118/94, and that I just came through a triple bypass with flying colors) - they're just in the camp that doesn't place as much importance on salt intake as the camp that does.

And there is a primitive test... suck down a salt tablet or two and check the BP every 15 minutes for two hours. Mine didn't budge upwards at all, and in fact went down because I was sitting around reading while waiting for the clock to tick by.

The Great Salt Debates have been going on for fifty years. You can find written support for any ludicrous position you want to take, because there are tens of thousands of papers on the topic.The 118 is great, the 94 is way better than 155 , but still about 20 above what it should be!!! Be careful and keep working on it!!:)

[Roboramma]

There is a wonderful folktale, similar a bit to king Lear , where the king asks his daughters how much they love him.
"More than silver" say one
"More than gold" says the second
"More than meat loves salt" says the last, and is banished for this supposed lack of sentiment.

She goes on her own adventure, and ends up marrying a prince of a foreign land. One day she sees her father is coming to visit for a banquet and orders that his meal be served without salt.

On tasting the food, he stands up and berates the servers, howls about how horrible the food is. His daughter calmly walks to him and says 'Now you see how much meat loves salt"

I liked that story. It's from The Thousand and One Nights.

[PhantomWolf]

Or, at least, it wouldn't be the case on day 1. But by day 30, I'm betting there are half a dozen companies offering all sorts of computerized services where the restaurant owner can put in the ingredients and it'll spit out the nutrition information. In fact, that sounds like a pretty good idea. If you have $20, I think I can guarantee a $50 return.

Better you than me. What is the fat content of a 100g piece of marbled beef steak? Even if you average it based on the content of many peices, it still depends on the way the chef prepares it, how it is cooked, how long it is cooked, how hot it was is cooked, what it is cooked in....

[fullflavormenthol]

Bearing in mind that I regularly bake salt-free bread (I am on a low salt diet) and that none of my cake/tea-bread recipes contain any salt, you may want to re-think yhat statement.
Well your bread sucks, and I will go ahead and allow a taste test against what I cook, and you will fail. You want to rethink your statement?

Seriously my bread is a freaking taste explosion, and it is a spiritual experience. My chili is what can convert an atheist to religion and I am an atheist. I am awesome. Good bread needs good salt, and that doesn't mean you have to overload on salt. It just means you need to take account of my Jesus bread when you decided if you want to shake the god powder on your food.

[Foolmewunz]

The 118 is great, the 94 is way better than 155 , but still about 20 above what it should be!!! Be careful and keep working on it!!:)

I was quoting the high (of the low). And bear in mind this is still just 70 days after the bypass. I try to take the BP in the early morning, when they say your stress should be lower, but they don't account for running into BeAChooser at 0600 in a politics thread :-)

Yeah - the target is to get the systolic down around 120 - and we hit that regularly. The systolic target is 80 or below, and I've bounced around in thye 80s, but not regularly enough. But starting out with a systolic BP of 216 was just plain damned frightening. I thought the machine was broken in Thailand when we first discovered it! I sort of envisioned that at that rate, veins should be shooting out of your body across the room!

(Weird... I have a tendency to talk about my health in the first person plural. Not sure if that "we" is the doctors and I, or my woman and I, or all of us.)

But... yes, I worry a helluva lot more about the BP than the salt intake, and I'm a believer in salt-sensitivity because I've seen in my own case that I'm just not getting any effect from it, whatsoever.

[Bob Blaylock]

Blaylock seems to thing [sic] that ANY regulation of business is government meddling.


It's probably better if you leave it to me to say what I think.

However, I have to ask what form of regulation wouldn't constitute “meddling”? The question isn't whether government regulation is or is not “meddling”; clearly it is. The question is whether government is justified in engaging in a particular instance of regulation/meddling.

[Aitch]

Well your bread sucks, and I will go ahead and allow a taste test against what I cook, and you will fail. You want to rethink your statement?


As you have never tasted my bread, I would guess that you have insecurity issues about how good your bread actually is. ;)

The only problem with salt free bread is that it doesn't last as long as the other kind. Which is not a problem as it gets eaten quickly. Well, mine does.

[Foolmewunz]

Where's that clip from Animal House?


Food Bread Fight!!!!

[Aitch]

Food Bread Fight!!!!

Did I ever mention the time I tried to bake soda-bread - and produced something that could be used as a discus? :eek:

Not to mention the scones that could have been used as ice-hockey pucks...

[luchog]

I have not used salt in porridge since...(thinks) around 1983 or thereabouts. I grant you it took a bit of getting used to, at first but it's really just what you are accustomed to. And I'm a Scotsman, the noo!

But clearly not a true Scotsman.

[quadraginta]

Or, at least, it wouldn't be the case on day 1. But by day 30, I'm betting there are half a dozen companies offering all sorts of computerized services where the restaurant owner can put in the ingredients and it'll spit out the nutrition information. In fact, that sounds like a pretty good idea. If you have $20, I think I can guarantee a $50 return.

Better you than me. What is the fat content of a 100g piece of marbled beef steak? Even if you average it based on the content of many peices, it still depends on the way the chef prepares it, how it is cooked, how long it is cooked, how hot it was is cooked, what it is cooked in....

Perhaps he wasn't suggesting that it spit out accurate information.

That doesn't seem to be a prerequisite in the nutrition woo market. Even relatively close would be a big improvement. Possibly unpatriotic.

[Belz...]

Sort of like in the movie Repo Man (1984) where Emilio Estevez eats out of a can with a black and white label stating "Food."

"Eat recycled food. It's good for the environment, and okay for you." - Robotic food dispenser, Judge Dredd.

[GreyICE]

I do. Not because I'm against disclosure, but because requiring inclusion of stuff like calories imposes a regulatory burden, which has costs. It's easy for McDonalds to include calories for their items: they're standardized from location to location and over time, so the per-customer cost becomes vanishingly small. But that's not the case for a mom-and-pop shop. Should they really have to submit their dishes to a laboratory to determine calorie content? Should they have to do this every time they want to change their menu, or introduce a new dish? Or even just adjust the serving sizes? And who enforces such a requirement? Enforcement doesn't come free either. If restaurants want to include such information, more power to them. And if customers want that information, they can choose to dine at restaurants that provide it. But let people vote with their wallets. We shouldn't have to require this stuff of restaurants. It's nanny-statism, and I want no part of it. Raw ignorance kicks in, again.

The NY law required any restaurant with 4 or more locations to post the information. Which would be, let me check, not mom and pops at all.

Is this really the go to argument method? Make up some contingency that was specifically planned for, ignore the planning, and cry about it?

It's like someone arguing "Nuclear power is unsafe because it could go unstable tomorrow and become another Chernobyl... unless we pay attention to those rods and emergency systems and monitoring stations and stuff"

[Damien Evans]

I think Roger got the no-salt issue for Damien. (Uh, squawk, that's a Roger, Roger squawk!)

Baking Soda is a salt.

Oh, and I know we have some pastry chef as a member, don't we. I believe that the amount of salt used in baking would be so far from worrisome that it probably could still be used. Don't most recipes call for like an eighth of a teaspoon. I think that's the original "pinch" in grandma's day.

Ah. This I did not know. In that case, most of the recipes I have use salt. My apologies.

[PhantomWolf]

Ah. This I did not know. In that case, most of the recipes I have use salt. My apologies.

Chemically speaking, any ionic compound that results from the neutralization of an acid by a base is a salt. If either the acid or base contains a metal ion, then the resulting product would be considered a metal salt. The most common salt metals would be Cu, Na, K, Mg, Mn, Ni, and Fe, but really any metal can form one. The metal is generally in the form of a Cation (positively charged ion) that is bonded to at least one Anion (negatively charged ion.) These are often something as simple as a single Halogen ion (F-, Cl-, Br-, I-), or they can be an entire negatively charged covalent molcule. These multi-atomic ions can be either organic, for example an acetate (CH3COO−,) or inorganic, such as a sulphate (SO4-) or bicarbonate (HCO3−).

In the case of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate), it is what we'd call a Basic Inorganic Metal Salt, since it forms Hydroxide ions (OH-), and thus a Basic solution (pH > 7,) when mixed with water, and has both an inorganic (HCO3−) and metal (Na+) component.

ETA: I should have pointed out that it is entirely possible to have non-metal salts, for example Ammonium Chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_chloride) (NH4Cl) which is the product of Hydrochloric Acid and Ammonia.

[aggle-rithm]

Chemically speaking, any ionic compound that results from the neutralization of an acid by a base is a salt. If either the acid or base contains a metal ion, then the resulting product would be considered a metal salt. The most common salt metals would be Cu, Na, K, Mg, Mn, Ni, and Fe, but really any metal can form one. The metal is generally in the form of a Cation (positively charged ion) that is bonded to at least one Anion (negatively charged ion.) These are often something as simple as a single Halogen ion (F-, Cl-, Br-, I-), or they can be an entire negatively charged covalent molcule. These multi-atomic ions can be either organic, for example an acetate (CH3COO−,) or inorganic, such as a sulphate (SO4-) or bicarbonate (HCO3−).

In the case of baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate), it is what we'd call a Basic Inorganic Metal Salt, since it forms Hydroxide ions (OH-), and thus a Basic solution (pH > 7,) when mixed with water, and has both an inorganic (HCO3−) and metal (Na+) component.

ETA: I should have pointed out that it is entirely possible to have non-metal salts, for example Ammonium Chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_chloride) (NH4Cl) which is the product of Hydrochloric Acid and Ammonia.

My mother uses some sort of salt substitute, with another element filling in for the sodium. It's like table salt in every way, except for the taste. So, while it may not taste salty, it at least satisfies the need to sprinkle something white on your food.

[PhantomWolf]

My mother uses some sort of salt substitute, with another element filling in for the sodium. It's like table salt in every way, except for the taste. So, while it may not taste salty, it at least satisfies the need to sprinkle something white on your food.

Quite probably Potassium Chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_substitute).

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Phantom,
Good post. That was very informative. Have you ever read Mark Kurlansky's "Salt: A World History"? It's a very interesting little read.

[Graham2001]

If this continues, it won't be long before we're down to some narrow list of bland, unappealing, government-approved food products, which will be the only things that restaurants are allowed to serve.


Sort of like in the movie Repo Man (1984) where Emilio Estevez eats out of a can with a black and white label stating "Food."

I think I may have eaten something like that, it was called "Coles Chicken Green Curry". There was no taste and I don't think there was any chicken in it either...

[PhantomWolf]

Phantom,
Good post. That was very informative. Have you ever read Mark Kurlansky's "Salt: A World History"? It's a very interesting little read.

Thanks, it's the chemist side of me, lol. I haven't not read it, but salts are very important things, from 2000 years ago where the Roman's paid their legions in Table Salt (NaCl) to today where salts are used for a myrid of things, including fertilizers (Ammonium Nitrate) to solid rocket fuel for the booster on the Space Shuttle (Ammonium Perchlorate). Society as we know it today would likely not be able to function if not for the chemical family we call salts.

[ZirconBlue]

Quite probably Potassium Chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_substitute).

Which tastes similar to "real" salt, but has a horrible aftertaste. If people can get used to artificial sweeteners (like saccharine or aspertame), then I guess they can probably get used to KCl. I, however, cannot see myself ever ingesting enough of either to get used to them.

[rwguinn]

What happens to Cheese?
You cannot make anything other than really crappy mozzerella without some salt! (Of the NaCl type!)

[Loss Leader]

Have you ever read Mark Kurlansky's "Salt: A World History"? It's a very interesting little read.


Probably the best non-fiction book I've ever read. The government should mail people copies with their census forms.

[Greg_in_CO]

Assemblyman Ortiz, the bill's sponsor, has stepped-in to perform damage control clarify:

http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2010/03/12/assemblyman-seeks-to-do-damage-control-on-salt-ban-bill/

“My intention for this legislation was to prohibit the use of salt as an additive to meals. If salt is a functional component of the recipe, by all means, it should be included. But, when we have meals prepared by restaurants that pile unnecessary amounts of salt, we have a problem,” he said.

Ummm. . . okay. So who's going to determine when salt crosses the line from being a "functional component" to "unnecessary?"

"Cheese it! It's da Food Police!"

[roger]

Which tastes similar to "real" salt, but has a horrible aftertaste. If people can get used to artificial sweeteners (like saccharine or aspertame), then I guess they can probably get used to KCl. I, however, cannot see myself ever ingesting enough of either to get used to them.My girlfriend sprinkles potassium cyanide on everything I eat. It has a yummy almond aftertaste.

[roger]

What happens to Cheese?
You cannot make anything other than really crappy mozzerella without some salt! (Of the NaCl type!)
Don't forget cottage cheese!

But that's about it.

[ZirconBlue]

My girlfriend sprinkles potassium cyanide on everything I eat. It has a yummy almond aftertaste.

Sounds delicious! Plus, I'm always looking for ways to add potassium to my diet.

[roger]

Sounds delicious! Plus, I'm always looking for ways to add potassium to my diet.I hve sme grewt recipwe, bt my arms arew goingg into a wwwierd spasssasmsms. I''lll pst them lat

[lector]

As I noted above, I've been keeping a low-salt diet under the assumption that it did no harm. Turns out that even this is open to question.

Thsi proposed NYS ban has been generating a lot of discussion. A friend on another board sent me a "Commentary" article from one of the February issues of the Journal Of The American Medical Association. I can't link to it because I'm not a subscriber but this is the important bit:

RCTs with morbidity and mortality endpoints are the standard with which health and medical interventions are tested. The only such RCTs that have compared different sodium intakes involve patients with heart failure. Randomization to a more restricted sodium intake (1840 mg/d; to convert from mg to mmol,divide by 23) significantly increased mortality and hospitalization compared with those randomized to sodium intake of 2760 mg/d (US mean, 2921 mg/d5). These results are consistent with the view that overzealous restriction of sodium may be harmful for patients with heart failure.

There is more detail in the article, which surveys more than 20 recent studies and notes interesting cultural correlations. It also raises more questions than it answers, in my view.

I haven't researched this area in 5-6 years. Clearly there have been developments since then. I guess the bottom line is to keep monitoring one's blood pressure & diet, and attempt to stay current on the science.

[Ziggurat]

Interesting quote, lector. I wonder if the severely restricted sodium diet led to patients not eating enough to stay healthy. From everything I hear, that sort of food is really unappetizing. I know cancer patients often have nutrition problems because of chemo suppressing appetite, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was at play in that study.

[lector]

Interesting quote, lector. I wonder if the severely restricted sodium diet led to patients not eating enough to stay healthy. From everything I hear, that sort of food is really unappetizing. I know cancer patients often have nutrition problems because of chemo suppressing appetite, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was at play in that study.

Wouldn't surprise me either. That, and eating the wrong things, nutritionally, a/c depression, which is not uncommon after heart failure.

It's easy to maintain a tasty low-sodium diet, but it takes a lot of work & keeping one's focus for a time.

Since this article summarizes various studies, I'd have to go to the studies themselves to really understand what these numbers are based on, and I don't have that sort of time right now. I mainly take this as just another reminder to keep an open mind.

[Nosi]

I just watched a tv cooking show and they added salt to the filling for lemon meringue pie!

The guy is from Brooklyn, I wonder if he has any opposition for his seat because I would think that this could be used pretty effectively against him. Ortiz hates our deli's! He hates our food!

Keep that handy. Sounds saltastic!

[Loss Leader]

Interesting quote, lector. I wonder if the severely restricted sodium diet led to patients not eating enough to stay healthy. From everything I hear, that sort of food is really unappetizing. I know cancer patients often have nutrition problems because of chemo suppressing appetite, I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was at play in that study.


I wouldn't discount the idea that even mild hyponatremia increased the risk of arrhythmias.

[PhantomWolf]

One of the other issues with a super low salt diet is that it can lead to Iodine deficiency and goiter, since iodized salt is one of the main ways of introducing Iodine to people's diets.

[RSL's better half]

This is ridiculous. I think/hope the guy's just making a gesture to show the home county folks that he's doing something.

Salt functions as a binder for flavours. It also adds saltiness, but the chief role in taste if you're not looking for a salty coating (like I like my French Fries) is that binding.

I also read somewhere (on the internet, so it's got to be true) that the dangers of salt to your health has been way over-emphasized. And anecdotaly, I have been going through a course of treatment for heart and artery disease and hypertension, and the doctors (plural - about seven in total) have never even mentioned salt intake.

On the other hand, I added salt, at thetable, to nearly every food I ate my entire life. This lrd to INSANELY high blood pressure (300/180), and thus to a stroke that nearly killed me. My salt intake was many times higher than most people's, though.

[RSL's better half]

that previous post, and this, were made by me, not my better half.

-RSL

[ponderingturtle]

On the other hand, I added salt, at thetable, to nearly every food I ate my entire life. This lrd to INSANELY high blood pressure (300/180), and thus to a stroke that nearly killed me. My salt intake was many times higher than most people's, though.

Some people do have sodium related hypertension, and so it is not unreasonable that your hypertension was related to your salt intake. But it seems that only a percent of those with hypertension are effected by the salt intake.

[aggle-rithm]

Which tastes similar to "real" salt, but has a horrible aftertaste.

It does? Maybe I'm not using enough of it.

[WildCat]

Just to reiterate: Salt is not the same as sodium.

Do not put sodium in your mouth. It will react quite vigorously with your saliva, though you will be able to do an impressive fire-breathing dragon impersonation.

[quadraginta]

Just to reiterate: Salt is not the same as sodium.

Do not put sodium in your mouth. It will react quite vigorously with your saliva, though you will be able to do an impressive fire-breathing dragon impersonation.


:D

In high school we had a chemistry instructor known by virtue of his red hair and other traits which will become apparent as "The Crimson Douchebag" by students, and in more private moments by the rest of the faculty.

To demonstrate the properties of sodium and water to his class he stood before us at a lab table and proceeded to drop a chunk of sodium metal into a two liter beaker full of water. The piece he selected was about the size of a hen's egg. Those of us in the class who knew better were unable to stop him in time.

Fortunately the student seating was well back from the lab table, and he was wearing safety goggles. But for the remainder of the semester any time anyone used that particular table for anything which involved water vapor the ceiling tiles above it would hiss gently.

I thought of it as a gift which kept on giving. :p

[ponderingturtle]

Just to reiterate: Salt is not the same as sodium.

Do not put sodium in your mouth. It will react quite vigorously with your saliva, though you will be able to do an impressive fire-breathing dragon impersonation.

But not all sodium salts that can cause issues with hypertension are NaCl.