A Good Fight: Deaf Woman wants Drive Thrus to change

[Arus808]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18564094

I totally agree with this woman; having a family member who is deaf (she can read lips), she has to always park her car and walk into a restaurant, if the that restaurant doesn't have a drive thru with a special box for the deaf to use. This causes her an inconvenience as she has to fight for parking, then walk into a crowded restaurant to order her food, while those in the Drive thru can get their food easily, and not have to take the extra time to get ouf their cars to order food.

What do you guys think?


I've seen Drive Thrus with a special "call" box that has a button to choose for the hearing impaired; what it does is signals the person at the window that the car that is coming up has a deaf person, and they will order their order at the window instead of the box; or to notify that employee to send out another employee to take that person's order so that she can pay at the window.

[quixotecoyote]

Why not just order at the window anyway?

[Arus808]

Why not just order at the window anyway?


She did at one restaurant, and the drive thru employee threatened to call the police if she didn't get out of the line, drive back around and order at the box.

She sued the restaurant.


Most restaurants will allow you to order at the window (as shown in the interview) but you will encounter that one restaurant like the one she took to court.


I think that with our technology today, a simple update to drive thrus is needed.

[Skeptic]

I think a good compromise would be that deaf people are allowed to order at the window (so they can read lips), much like there is an exception is made for seeing-eye dogs. This way the restaurants don't have to go to extra expenses but those who are deaf are not discriminated against.

[Arus808]

Well the technology already exists; a simple update to the order box is a button; it notifies the employee at the window that the next car in line, or coming up will be someone who is deaf, and they will need to order at the window.

However, not many restaurants have this small little device installed on their order box; so some employees are surprised that a car will drive up, when no order has been placed.

And in many restaurants, the order box contains a sensor that lets the drive thru employee know that a car is waiting to order; the drive thru order window is not "manned" usually every minute, especially during a slow period so that signal is to let the employee know a person is coming up to the box or in the drive thru. If a deaf person drives past the order box without tripping the sensor, it can catch the employees off guard, and the deaf driver may have to wait to get the attention of an employee.

[HansMustermann]

Sounds to me like the employee was just being a jerk. In the time he argued with her to go back to the box, he could have just taken her order.

[Soapy Sam]

I would have thought given the monotony of these jobs, dealing with someone a bit different might present an enjoyable challenge.
That said, I find the whole idea of "drive- through " restaurants, or indeed "drive- through" anything, a bit silly.
Is anyone really in such a hurry they can't get out of their car long enough to order fast food? As for "fighting" for car park space, that's a strange verb to choose. I generally look for or wait for a space, rather than fight for one. I don't see why being deaf would involve actual combat.

[ponderingturtle]

I think a good compromise would be that deaf people are allowed to order at the window (so they can read lips), much like there is an exception is made for seeing-eye dogs. This way the restaurants don't have to go to extra expenses but those who are deaf are not discriminated against.

There are expenses so that the handicapped are not discriminated against in many businesses. As such this would not be remarkably onerous for them. But I am uncertain that it would be truly needed either.

[HansMustermann]

I would have thought given the monotony of these jobs, dealing with someone a bit different might present an enjoyable challenge.
That said, I find the whole idea of "drive- through " restaurants, or indeed "drive- through" anything, a bit silly.
Is anyone really in such a hurry they can't get out of their car long enough to order fast food? As for "fighting" for car park space, that's a strange verb to choose. I generally look for or wait for a space, rather than fight for one. I don't see why being deaf would involve actual combat.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people, the only thing that properly breaks the monotony and boredom is an oportunity to be a dick to someone else.

[One Eyed Jack]

This reminds me of the many times I've seen the small signs at a Drive-Thru that reads, "Braille menus available at the window".

WTF is a blind person doing driving a car and how will they read the sign?

[Darat]

It seems to me the simplest way to deal with it would be to have a sign at the box that simply says "If you are deaf please order at the window" oh and of course have it in Braille for those that are deaf and blind.

[The Fallen Serpent]

I would have thought given the monotony of these jobs, dealing with someone a bit different might present an enjoyable challenge.
That said, I find the whole idea of "drive- through " restaurants, or indeed "drive- through" anything, a bit silly.
Is anyone really in such a hurry they can't get out of their car long enough to order fast food? As for "fighting" for car park space, that's a strange verb to choose. I generally look for or wait for a space, rather than fight for one. I don't see why being deaf would involve actual combat.I have seen restaurants that are drive thru only. In some cities some restaurants do what they can to discourage sit down service. Including limiting parking spaces and having a cramped dining area. The drive thru is the encouraged thouroughfare of many fast food places. Fighting was obviously not intended to mean physical violence but competition over limited resources.

There are expenses so that the handicapped are not discriminated against in many businesses. As such this would not be remarkably onerous for them. But I am uncertain that it would be truly needed either.Agreed on both. From what I gathered from the video she is not calling for a regulation on drive thru businesses but trying to convince the businesses directly to take up this expense. Seems reasonable and I agree that it is a good idea. It adds convenience and removes the surprise factor of the situation for the workers.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people, the only thing that properly breaks the monotony and boredom is an oportunity to be a dick to someone else.So true.

This reminds me of the many times I've seen the small signs at a Drive-Thru that reads, "Braille menus available at the window".

WTF is a blind person doing driving a car and how will they read the sign?It is for the convenience of blind patrons that are driven to a drive thru and find it faster and more convenient to read the menu than to have their driver read off the entire menu. This is the same as for drive up bank tellers with braille instructions. The blind person interacts with the braille, the driver interacts with the visual necessity of driving. I am not blind and I have been driven to drive thru food and bank atm before.

[One Eyed Jack]

It is for the convenience of blind patrons that are driven to a drive thru and find it faster and more convenient to read the menu than to have their driver read off the entire menu.


I am aware of that.

It was a joke. Sorry I didn't put a ;) or :D after it to make it glaringly obvious. ;)

[The Fallen Serpent]

I am aware of that.

It was a joke. Sorry I didn't put a ;) or :D after it to make it glaringly obvious. ;)

I apologize, this is a very common question that people seriously ask. Hard to tell when it was a real question or a joke. :D Kind of like the question, "Why do cross walk lights beep when they are blinking? That is so annoying!"

[casebro]

Use your phone to text in the order. Seems some drive troughs actually have off site order takers, who then email the order to the front window.

Hmm, That brings up another thought re: deaf people can now use phones the same as the non-impaired. Vibrate instead of ring, etc.

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

It seems to me the simplest way to deal with it would be to have a sign at the box that simply says "If you are deaf please order at the window" oh and of course have it in Braille for those that are deaf and blind.

I hope no one who is deaf and blind attempts to drive a car in the first place...

Although experience on the road would seem to indicate otherwise sometimes.

Being deaf is no problem. Most people listen to music so loudly in their cars that they're essentially deaf on the road anyway. But being blind too...? :p

[AJM8125]

Hmmm.

Seems to me a good solution is to install touch screen stations at the drive-thru along with ATM / credit card readers. The technology already exists. Drive up, peck out your order, swipe your card, done. A button can be installed to summon a human incase the computer(s) crash.

Foreseeable problems? Harsh weather may require some type of enclosure; ATM skimmers; retraining humans to think differently ....

[ryanebelhar]

I work at a Panera Bread with a drive thru. Every once in a while we have a deaf person come through.

I always feel bad, because it is soooooooooooo annoying when people just drive past the speaker and pull straight up to the window. And then when it turns out to be a deaf person you just feel like crap for getting mad.

[thaiboxerken]

What do you guys think?


I think it's silly. Since drive-thru food is a convenience and not a necessity, I don't see an issue here.

[Puppycow]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18564094

I totally agree with this woman; having a family member who is deaf (she can read lips), she has to always park her car and walk into a restaurant, if the that restaurant doesn't have a drive thru with a special box for the deaf to use. This causes her an inconvenience as she has to fight for parking, then walk into a crowded restaurant to order her food, while those in the Drive thru can get their food easily, and not have to take the extra time to get ouf their cars to order food.

What do you guys think?


I've seen Drive Thrus with a special "call" box that has a button to choose for the hearing impaired; what it does is signals the person at the window that the car that is coming up has a deaf person, and they will order their order at the window instead of the box; or to notify that employee to send out another employee to take that person's order so that she can pay at the window.

Your link is wrong. It's to a video of a news report about a man killed by a train.

I'm wondering if she's trying to change the law or just asking companies to voluntarily change?

I would hope that the latter approach is tried before the former.

[theprestige]

Arus808, what would your friend say is the difference between asking me to install a special box at my drive-through, and asking me to learn American Sign Language?

Also, if I install a special box at my drive-through (or learn ASL) for her benefit, what will will she do for my benefit?

Finally, if I decide that her occasional custom at my drive through is not worth the effort to me (for whatever reason), and politely decline to install a special box, will she politely accept my decision? Or will she be much more upset at me for not offering her a more attractive deal than I am upset at her for not offering me a more attractive deal?

[Uncayimmy]

If there's a busy drive-thru with three people in front of you, there's the potential to slow things down by ordering at the window. Normally, you order at the box and your order is prepared while the people ahead of you are served. If you go to the window to order, then the prep time for your order is shifted. Essentially, you are ordering after the people behind you have ordered, and now they have extra wait time. That's bad for business and teh other people.

Of course, they can ask you to pull ahead and park. Then a clerk has to leave the restaurant and carry your order out to you. There are definitely places where as a store owner I wouldn't want to send some teenage girl outside late at night. At the very least I lose the use of that employee for a minute, which is a long time in the fast-food world. Again, this can adversely affect other customers and the business. I've been at some places where it seems like there is one clerk and one cook, so this would be even more inconvenient for the business.

Some places close the lobby and only do drive-thru later at night. They will not under any circumstances unlock the door and go outside. This, of course, means the only choice the restaurant has is to make everybody else wait.

Then you have the places with two windows - one to pay and one to pick up. It's probably less of a burden on those places because the cashier is usually taking the order. The line would slow down less. Then again, I've seen stores with two ordering lanes that funnel into a single pick-up lane. I'm always amazed these people don't get confused. Even with one ordering lane, I can easily see how it would mess up the internal system. Granted, it's not rocket science, but it's a fast-paced operation, and any deviation can make things ugly.

Then there's the practical issue of placing this call button somewhere. It's not going to be cheap (quick trip to the hardware store) to modify an existing system. Is it a wired system or radio? If it's wired, I bet it can get expensive running another cable from outside into the building. It wouldn't be a big deal on a new installation, though. Still, I would guess it might cost a couple of grand to install a durable system properly.

They typically they keep the ordering box out of reach because they don't want people smashing it with their cars. One glance at the protective steel poles in the ground show you how many people lack the proper driving skills. They do not want people getting out of their cars in line, so I guess you'd need to put in a protective pole as well. Depending on the layout, this could be a pain in the ass.

Of course, there's always the issue of vandalism. Granted, they could vandalize the existing ordering box, but not from the convenience of sitting in the car. This literally presents hundreds of new opportunities per day. I'd be concerned about it as a store owner.

All of these considerations have to be balanced against the alternatives. I'm not buying the idea of ordering inside the store as being a big burden on the consumer. Many people, myself included, still walk in to order carry-out. I often do this when the drive-thru line is long. To me it's a hard sell to tell a business owner that they have to spend a few thousand dollars, disrupt their work-flow, and possibly require clerks to go outside just so a deaf person doesn't have to get out of their car to get a cheeseburger.

I think this one of those things where I'd let the market determine how to handle it.

[JWideman]

I thought you weren't allowed to drive if you were deaf.

[Arus808]

Your link is wrong. It's to a video of a news report about a man killed by a train.


it was correct on the day I posted it. However, yahoo always changes their video, so its probably unavailable now.


I'm wondering if she's trying to change the law or just asking companies to voluntarily change?

I would hope that the latter approach is tried before the former.

its a voluntarily good vibe pr move that she wants companies to consider.

if all else fails, then it could become a lawsuit; not filed by her, but hey ACLU / ADA lawyers would be more than happy to take it up as a case to get the laws changed

[Arus808]

Arus808, what would your friend say is the difference between asking me to install a special box at my drive-through, and asking me to learn American Sign Language?

What? - a special box ? All it is is adding a push button, that signals the windows person that someone is coming, and is not going to be ordering at the box. IT already exists. How do you think drive thru employees know that a car is waiting in the drive thru at a box to order? They trip a sensor to do so. All it is a small inexpensive upgrade to a call box.

Why would you equate it to learning ASL?

Also, if I install a special box at my drive-through (or learn ASL) for her benefit, what will will she do for my benefit?

more people using the drive thru instead of taking up space in your restaurant for longer than needed. serve 100 people in a hour via a drive thru or serve 30-40 people an hour via table service?

At a McDonald's near work, they have a sign posted (at their drive thru window) of how many people they serve a minute. The sign stated 1.7 people on the drive thru ; 3 on the inside counter registers.

I think the boost in sales would cover the installation of a measly $1000 call button.

Why should a person with a disability be neglected to take advantage of a more efficient service?



Finally, if I decide that her occasional custom at my drive through is not worth the effort to me (for whatever reason), and politely decline to install a special box, will she politely accept my decision?

She will then just drive up to your window normally, ,by passing your call box, and scaring your employees or angering them enough to have them call the police on her (which is what happened).

Wouldn't you rather make your employees lives easier so that they are notified that when a deaf person is ordering, they will not be surprised or even let said customer wait at the window, hoping your employee notices them?

And what on a busy day? when you 10 cars in your drive thru and your employees are just readying the food as they are ordered and here comes a car that hasn't ordered thereby confusing your employees?


Would you rather have the bad press and then no business; or the resulting lawsuit that could happen?

[Arus808]

I thought you weren't allowed to drive if you were deaf.


You can get a license if you're deaf; and apply for a handicap placard in some states.

the only restriction is on any disability that prevents you from driving correctly and if you're legally blind

[Uncayimmy]

What? - a special box ? All it is is adding a push button, that signals the windows person that someone is coming, and is not going to be ordering at the box. IT already exists. How do you think drive thru employees know that a car is waiting in the drive thru at a box to order? They trip a sensor to do so. All it is a small inexpensive upgrade to a call box.

I am not physically able to touch the call boxes at the drive-thrus I use.

more people using the drive thru instead of taking up space in your restaurant for longer than needed. serve 100 people in a hour via a drive thru or serve 30-40 people an hour via table service?
According to Galludet (http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php), about 9 to 22 people are "functionally" deaf with half of them being 65 or older. If we take the higher number and assume that all deaf people want to use the drive-thru rather than enter the store and that all of these people are alone and without a hearing person able to assist, that's still a very small number.

Second, it's not table service but counter service we're talking about. If a deaf person wants to use the drive-thru, there's no reason to expect that person to decide to sit down in the store.

Third, do you have evidence that drive-thru is more efficient from the restaurant's perspective? I bet that it's not, but I don't know for sure. You have to keep in mind that going from 40 seconds to 45 seconds is a 10% slow-down. The way I see it there's the physical issue where clerks have to open the window, and both parties have to lean. It's an awkward exchange at best, and it's a serial exchange. At the counter they can just set the bag on the counter. So, just delivering the food and accepting payment is going to take an extra couple of seconds compared to the counter where the clerk simply puts the bag on the counter.

At the counter, a single clerk doing everything can process more than one order at a time. He can ask a person to step to the side while that Filet o' Fish is getting wrapped and start the next order. There's no way that can happen with cars unless you ask the person to pull forward, at which point a clerk has to leave the store.

Then you have the exit time for the customer. At the counter I can see them place my order in the bag. At the drive-thru I have to check it, and I won't pull away until I do. At the counter I can watch them pull the change from the drawer and usually don't need to count it. I can also step to the side and put it in my wallet. At the drive-thru I have to count it, and it's awkward to put my wallet back in my pocket. I also have to buckle my seatbelt. This can easily take several seconds.

Finally, the drive-thru operates at a fixed rate. At peak times they can't open additional registers like they can at the counter (assuming a larger store). A store can serve more people through the counter system than the drive-thru system.

Basically, I don't think you can argue that the store is better off having an extra person or two per hour come into the lobby makes them more efficient.


At a McDonald's near work, they have a sign posted (at their drive thru window) of how many people they serve a minute. The sign stated 1.7 people on the drive thru ; 3 on the inside counter registers.
Right. So getting more people inside is better for them. Or did you reverse the numbers?

Why should a person with a disability be neglected to take advantage of a more efficient service?
Why do you call it neglect? It's an inconvenience at worst.

Wouldn't you rather make your employees lives easier so that they are notified that when a deaf person is ordering, they will not be surprised or even let said customer wait at the window, hoping your employee notices them?
I'd rather have deaf people come into the store.

Would you rather have the bad press and then no business; or the resulting lawsuit that could happen?
What a wonderfully persuasive argument! If she asked for cash instead of a call button, it would be called extortion.

[Arus808]

I am not physically able to touch the call boxes at the drive-thrus I use.


And? I can touch some of the call boxes at drive thrus in my area. Some call boxes have the push button for the deaf right on it, and I can reach it just fine.

According to Galludet (http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php), about 9 to 22 people are "functionally" deaf with half of them being 65 or older. If we take the higher number and assume that all deaf people want to use the drive-thru rather than enter the store and that all of these people are alone and without a hearing person able to assist, that's still a very small number. 9-22 out of 1000 people; that's roughly 6,000,000 people being inconvenienced by non-friendly call boxes at drive thrus, and making a deaf person have to drive up to a window without notifying the employee that they are in line.

What about restaurants that do not have a walk in part of their establishment? If they are without a walk in and only have drive thru, how does that help a deaf person?

Its about equality. Why should those who can hear, have a more easier time of getting their food faster than someone, who is deaf, have to fight for parking, stand in line on the inside, and wait for the servers to serve those who came before them, and the drive thru orders before they get their order?

Second, it's not table service but counter service we're talking about. If a deaf person wants to use the drive-thru, there's no reason to expect that person to decide to sit down in the store. My comment was in response to how much of an inconvenience adding a new call box, or upgrading a current establishments call boxes would cost. How is upping your order count per hour going to hurt you if you install an inexpensive call box or upgrade it?

Offering either service equally to all customers only benefits the business in the end. A call box friendly to the hearing impaired may have an initial cost associated it with it, but you're no longer inconveniencing a select group of people.

And its helpful to your business; it helps the customer to let the employees know that the car coming next means that they will be ordering at the window instead of surprising them, or in the case of the OP, having an employee yell at her to get back into line and use the call box, for which she could not do, because she wouldn't have been able to hear the employee to begin with.


Third, do you have evidence that drive-thru is more efficient from the restaurant's perspective? I bet that it's not, but I don't know for sure. I can only go by what I've seen, as I've worked in a restaurant that had a drive thru. WE LOVED having the drive thru, as it was more convenient and we served a lot more customers in an hour than we did with our walk ins. Also Drive thru customers usually spent MORE money than walk ins did.

im going by experience here. And I also notice as a customer when Im ordering at the counter, I see that three customers in the drive thru are already served by the time I get my order and Im on my way back to the car.


Efficient yes - there is no need to clean tables, dump garbage, or making sure that the soda fountain has straws, lids, napkins and condiments ready to go, and customers wasting away your supplies. Drive thru, you only stock what is needed next to the window.

You have to keep in mind that going from 40 seconds to 45 seconds is a 10% slow-down. The way I see it there's the physical issue where clerks have to open the window, and both parties have to lean.Clerks have to open a window anyway. All the drive thrus I've been through, including the window on the restaurant i worked at; all require for the employee to physically open it. It is bullet proof glass.

Lean? I have to lean at most drive thrus anyway, but its to "lean" up as I drive a car that is very low to the ground. In my friends SUV, I have to lean down. I dont see how this adding time to anything as its already done in most drive thrus already.

It's an awkward exchange at best, and it's a serial exchange. At the counter they can just set the bag on the counter. So, just delivering the food and accepting payment is going to take an extra couple of seconds compared to the counter where the clerk simply puts the bag on the counter.You've never paid at drive thrus that accept debit or credit cards have you?

What you're describing happens every single day without anyone having a problem doing.

Some restaurants (like most McD's) have a double window system. The call box, the pay window, the pick up window. You pay at one window, and at this window, you can also make corrections to your order or add to your order (I've done this numerous times). The next window is where the 'bag' is picked up.

A McD's I visit frequently has a Double call box system; that means two call boxes (traffic is forked) and then whoever is finished first moves onto the pay window. They have it figured out, cause each time I order, even on the most busiest days, they get my order correct, not mixing it up with any of the other cars.

At the counter, a single clerk doing everything can process more than one order at a time.and this is where I also find my orders getting mixed up the most and I get the wrong order or they didn't take out what I asked. (I want no pickles, i get a burger with pickles on it). Maybe taking too many orders at one time is what makes it more confusing for the counter workers than it does for the drive thru as its streamlined in the drive thru?

Then you have the exit time for the customer. At the counter I can see them place my order in the bag. At the drive-thru I have to check it, and I won't pull away until I do. At the counter I can watch them pull the change from the drawer and usually don't need to count it. I can also step to the side and put it in my wallet. At the drive-thru I have to count it, and it's awkward to put my wallet back in my pocket. I also have to buckle my seatbelt. This can easily take several seconds.You spend as much time checking your bag at the counter as you do in the drive thru. Even if you watch them put your stuff in the bag, there's always the off chance they put the wrong item in the bag. You still have to unwrap your burger to make sure they made your order, to order. You are not watchng them making your food (otherwise I wouldn't end up with a pickle in my no-pickle burger)

So this comparison is actually the same inside or outside. If i get the wrong order in a drive thru, most times I just call the restaurant, they take my name and number and the next time I visit, they give me the item they messed up on.

Finally, the drive-thru operates at a fixed rate. At peak times they can't open additional registers like they can at the counter (assuming a larger store). A store can serve more people through the counter system than the drive-thru system.Visit an In n Out on a busy lunch hour in LA. Chick Fil A on the weekend. They've got it down pat. They have extra workers outside in the drive thru to take orders and send it to the window, so by the time the customer make it through the drive thru, their order is ready and they can pay for it.

Some of these employees also carry a portable credit card/debit card processor that processes payment, so all they have to do is pick up their food.

Basically, I don't think you can argue that the store is better off having an extra person or two per hour come into the lobby makes them more efficient.The argument here is not about physical bodies (although, drive thrus can and have served more people than those who walk in), but the convenience of them for a customer.

A hearing impaired customer is inconvenienced by drive thrus that are unable to accommodate their needs; forcing them to drive through the drive thru to the window, thereby causing confusion to the employees or in the case of the OP, having an employee argue with the a hearing impaired person and having the police called.

It also forces them to take time to find parking, then get out of their car, lock, walk to the store, order their food, wait, get their food, walk back to their car, pull out and then head on their way.

Drive thru can shave 3-5 minutes (in some cases for a busy fast food restaurant, 10 minutes) off a customers time to get food.

Are hearing impaired people not as busy as those who can hear? What If they only 30 minutes for lunch and can only use the drive thru so they can get their food quickly?

Right. So getting more people inside is better for them. Or did you reverse the numbers?Reversed the numbers on that. Was typing while playing a video game.

Why do you call it neglect? It's an inconvenience at worst. They are being neglected; because no one thinks that they would use a drive thru in the first place (as one surmised in this thread, some think that hearing impaired people can't even get drivers licenses).

I'd rather have deaf people come into the store.I'd rather just have their business, anyway I can get it. and if it means to spend a small amount of money compared to what my business earns to upgrade or replace antiquated technology, I think its a good investment.


What a wonderfully persuasive argument! If she asked for cash instead of a call button, it would be called extortion.Extortion? Oh please. not even close.



All in all, I think that restaurant owners who are not willing to make the initial extra spending to upgrade to help their customers, then that is their decision to do so. however, as more and more current technology allow for those with disabilities the ability to go places and do things they couldn't do prior, these "antiquated" restaurant owners are going to find themselves competing with those who are willing to spend the money to upgrade so they serve all customers equally. Only how their earnings are going to determine their decisions.

[Uncayimmy]

And? I can touch some of the call boxes at drive thrus in my area. Some call boxes have the push button for the deaf right on it, and I can reach it just fine.
See the post of mine that you skipped. The location adds to the expense, and that's crucial to determining reasonable accommodations.

9-22 out of 1000 people; that's roughly 6,000,000 people being inconvenienced by non-friendly call boxes at drive thrus, and making a deaf person have to drive up to a window without notifying the employee that they are in line.
That was not your argument. Your argument was that this was somehow in the best interest of the restaurant, but the numbers don't bear that out. I had your rebuttal all sliced and diced, but I decided to skip it. Look, you totally missed the point I was making, which was comparing drive-thru and counter service to show that drive-thru is probably less efficient from the restaurant's perspective. There are a number of elements that seem to be slower, and it also appears they might be using more than one person to process the orders.

That the drive-thru makes them money is not in question. The question here is whether it's in their best interest to have an extra person per hour get their takeaway food from the drive-thru rather than the counter. You haven't come anywhere near establishing this. Meanwhile, you failed to refute a number of points that I made showing that drive-thru is probably more resource intensive.

Its about equality. Why should those who can hear, have a more easier time of getting their food faster than someone, who is deaf, have to fight for parking, stand in line on the inside, and wait for the servers to serve those who came before them, and the drive thru orders before they get their order?
Why should business owners lose money because of someone else's misfortune? It's about reasonable accommodations.

Offering either service equally to all customers only benefits the business in the end.
Nonsense. It would cost countless amounts of money for one McDonald's to offer equal service to all customers when you consider all of the many types of disabilities out there. This is about accommodating one disability, so cut the hyperbole. It's not like they are going to offer free delivery to the bedridden or accommodate every single allergy out there.

You still have to unwrap your burger to make sure they made your order, to order. You are not watchng them making your food (otherwise I wouldn't end up with a pickle in my no-pickle burger)
I won't say what I think about people who "special order" items at fast-food joints nor will I comment on the idiocy of opening a burger and checking to make sure somebody else took the pickle off.

The argument here is not about physical bodies (although, drive thrus can and have served more people than those who walk in), but the convenience of them for a customer.
No. The argument here is what constitutes reasonable accommodation. The first thing to look at is the burden on the person with the disability. Getting out of the car and going into the store like hundreds of other people do every day is not a big burden. People who arrive on foot, on bicycles or in vehicles too large for the drive-thru have do it every single day. I've been in the situation myself.

The restaurant is there to serve food, and deaf people get their food. That they may not be able to get in the manner they consider the most convenient at the time is something that people without disabilities deal with every day as well. They are not facing a situation unique to them.

So, on that level, I'm just not seeing a problem that demands the government intervene and force business to spend even a single penny to do something about. The minimal accommodation costs money, reduces efficiency, and adversely affects other customers. If you could offer a virtually effortless solution, I might be inclined to consider it.

Drive thru can shave 3-5 minutes (in some cases for a busy fast food restaurant, 10 minutes) off a customers time to get food.
Or it can cost you more time. I prefer to walk into the restaurant and take my food away whenever possible. Every time I do, I look at the last car in line at the drive-thru (seriously). If the car is not actually at the order box, then almost invariably my order is done first. No kidding.

Are hearing impaired people not as busy as those who can hear? What If they only 30 minutes for lunch and can only use the drive thru so they can get their food quickly?
What about all the people who now have to wait while this deaf person is accommodated? Remember, the order process cannot start until they get to the window, so everybody behind them has to wait longer than they would otherwise. I know it's not politically correct to say, but they call it a disability for a reason. The rest of the world shouldn't have to change to accommodate them. We can argue over what a reasonable accommodation might be, but in doing so we have to look at how everybody else is affected. We consumers pay for this stuff through higher prices. In this case, other people in line have to wait longer to get their orders filled.

I'd rather just have their business, anyway I can get it. and if it means to spend a small amount of money compared to what my business earns to upgrade or replace antiquated technology, I think its a good investment.
Nonsense. Spending more money to make the same amount you did before might make you feel better about yourself, but that doesn't mean it's a good investment. It's a good investment if it makes you money. But let's remember who pays for this "small" amount of money.

I don't know where you live, but here in Phoenix I've seen a number of fast food joints go under the last few years. Just because Burger King is huge doesn't mean the local franchise owner is not operating in the red. And when it closes down and Julioberto's takes over only to close six months later, it makes me wonder what you consider a "small" investment.

Extortion? Oh please. not even close.
Actually, when the basic argument is, "Do what we want or we are going to take this story public," the "what we want" part is the key factor in calling it extortion. If it's asking for money, then it's extortion. Just ask David Letterman. The point is, I think it's a ****** tactic to take, especially when you seem to have at best a tenuous grasp of how anyone besides a deaf person is affected.

All in all, I think that restaurant owners who are not willing to make the initial extra spending to upgrade to help their customers, then that is their decision to do so. however, as more and more current technology allow for those with disabilities the ability to go places and do things they couldn't do prior, these "antiquated" restaurant owners are going to find themselves competing with those who are willing to spend the money to upgrade so they serve all customers equally. Only how their earnings are going to determine their decisions.
Maybe.

[Cain]

This chick has no idea how annoying she sounds.

[Arus808]

Unca, you are making it sound like an upgrade to the system is going to put a huge dent in a business' earnings.

The upgrade would cost no more than a couple of thousands of dollars. IF your business can't make up a cost of an initial thousands dollars to cover the upgrade then there is something VERY seriously wrong about your business to begin with.


hypothetically, if you dont want to make it convenient to the "small" amount of hearing impaired customers that visit your business, fine. But make sure that your employees do not REACT the way the one did in the original story.

[Molinaro]

I hope no one who is deaf and blind attempts to drive a car in the first place...

At least not until after we get braille added to all the roadsigns.:o

[JWideman]

You can get a license if you're deaf; and apply for a handicap placard in some states.

the only restriction is on any disability that prevents you from driving correctly and if you're legally blind

I can't drive listening to my mp3 player through earphones because then I can't hear anything else, but a person who can't hear at all can drive?

[HansMustermann]

So basically if she orders 5 seconds later at the window it's a grand catastrophe for everyone. What if I go order 5 Gourmet Chicken, which I can guarantee you that no McDonald is going to just have done and wating there? If one deaf person causing that delay is such a grand catastrophe and totally raising the price for everyone else and all that, do you think that the maybe 5 bucks profit they make off my burgers are totally covering roughly the same delay?

Or maybe an argument boiling down to "but they might cause literally a couple of dollars extra costs" to not catter to her, really boils down to being an ass?

[Cain]

So basically if she orders 5 seconds later at the window it's a grand catastrophe for everyone. What if I go order 5 Gourmet Chicken, which I can guarantee you that no McDonald is going to just have done and wating there? If one deaf person causing that delay is such a grand catastrophe and totally raising the price for everyone else and all that, do you think that the maybe 5 bucks profit they make off my burgers are totally covering roughly the same delay?

Or maybe an argument boiling down to "but they might cause literally a couple of dollars extra costs" to not catter to her, really boils down to being an ass?

I can see how it causes confusion, and inconveniences the people waiting in line behind her. Unless you have kids or a physical disability, you shouldn't use a drive-thru. You're a *********** bum, polluting the air and taking up space.

[Uncayimmy]

So basically if she orders 5 seconds later at the window it's a grand catastrophe for everyone.
Nice straw man. It's not five seconds later, it could be a few minutes later. The order cycle starts at the call box and ends at the pickup window. Everybody from one point to the other is being served simultaneously. A deaf person ordering at the pickup window is starting the process where it should be ending. The time when she should have been ordering is wasted - it's not like the line can move any faster if she pushes the call button. When she should be picking up, she's ordering, and everybody behind her has to wait for her order to be processed from start to finish.

Without a doubt this adds time to everyone behind her.

What if I go order 5 Gourmet Chicken, which I can guarantee you that no McDonald is going to just have done and wating there? If one deaf person causing that delay is such a grand catastrophe and totally raising the price for everyone else and all that, do you think that the maybe 5 bucks profit they make off my burgers are totally covering roughly the same delay?
What a stupid argument. Gee, what if the deaf person orders 5 gourmet chickens? It would be even worse.

Or maybe an argument boiling down to "but they might cause literally a couple of dollars extra costs" to not catter to her, really boils down to being an ass?
What it boils down to is the deaf person expects everyone else to change their behavior for her disability and to pay for it. It's okay for her to make five people wait an extra minute so she doesn't have to spend an extra five minutes going into the store. It's not like she can't get her food. It's not like other "abled" or disabled people are not able to use this convenience. For various reasons, lots of people have to walk/wheel in to the store to get their takeaway.

You can call me an ass for not considering this a burden that needs addressing. You can call me an ass for seeing the accommodation as not being reasonable considering the burden. I really don't give a ****. It's more a reflection on the strength of your argument.

[Foolmewunz]

First of all..... $1000 for a "I Need Window Assistance Button"? Are we nuts? Try roughly $50. Anyone who ever saw a single episode of Mr. Wizard could do it for you, and factories could change their designs, virtually overnight, for about ten bucks a unit!

Secondly, if you get up to age 45 and over, you have a minimum of 10% of the population who are hearing impaired(the 45-55 group), up to 29.1% of the over 65s. Does that last group ring a bell? Restaurants and movies and transportation all over the world offer discounts. The restaurants, I feel, offer the early bird specials and whatnot to cater to that particular economy-minded crowd.

So? Wouldn't it seem to be good sense to offer a group that represents almost 9% of the population, on average, a couple of minutes off of Unca Yimmy's day? I'd sure do it at my restaurant. What's so different about installing a fifty buck call button that makes it more onerous than giving 25% discounts for early bird specials?

Let's say you're the McDonald's on in Union City, LI. Population in the area is probably about 125,000. Are you going to write-off 12,500 potential clients, say an average of 6.5 times a year, because someone can't give a little thought to how to manage those pesky deaf mutes' orders more efficiently.

This is a pittance compared to the costs of access ramps and wheelchair friendly restrooms. And I think businesses would go for it if they give it a half a second of thought.

[Darat]

I don't see why you need anything bar a simple sign. If you are happy with deaf people ordering at the window simply put a sign on the call box telling them they should order at the window. "Problem" solved.

[Foolmewunz]

I don't see why you need anything bar a simple sign. If you are happy with deaf people ordering at the window simply put a sign on the call box telling them they should order at the window. "Problem" solved.

But... but... it's fast food. You've got to hurry them along so those people behind them don't have to wait 90 seconds additional. There are re-runs of Lost in Space coming on at 7:30, after all!

[HansMustermann]

Nice straw man. It's not five seconds later, it could be a few minutes later. The order cycle starts at the call box and ends at the pickup window. Everybody from one point to the other is being served simultaneously. A deaf person ordering at the pickup window is starting the process where it should be ending. The time when she should have been ordering is wasted - it's not like the line can move any faster if she pushes the call button. When she should be picking up, she's ordering, and everybody behind her has to wait for her order to be processed from start to finish.

Without a doubt this adds time to everyone behind her.


What a stupid argument. Gee, what if the deaf person orders 5 gourmet chickens? It would be even worse.


What it boils down to is the deaf person expects everyone else to change their behavior for her disability and to pay for it. It's okay for her to make five people wait an extra minute so she doesn't have to spend an extra five minutes going into the store. It's not like she can't get her food. It's not like other "abled" or disabled people are not able to use this convenience. For various reasons, lots of people have to walk/wheel in to the store to get their takeaway.

You can call me an ass for not considering this a burden that needs addressing. You can call me an ass for seeing the accommodation as not being reasonable considering the burden. I really don't give a ****. It's more a reflection on the strength of your argument.

So, let me get this straight... the same employee who told her to get back in line to use the box, couldn't have taken her order and told her to get back in line to pick it up later? There is no need to hold everyone waiting. It just requires to be thinking about a solution, instead of thinking about excuses to be a dick.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18564094

I totally agree with this woman; having a family member who is deaf (she can read lips), she has to always park her car and walk into a restaurant, if the that restaurant doesn't have a drive thru with a special box for the deaf to use. This causes her an inconvenience as she has to fight for parking, then walk into a crowded restaurant to order her food, while those in the Drive thru can get their food easily, and not have to take the extra time to get ouf their cars to order food.

What do you guys think?


I've seen Drive Thrus with a special "call" box that has a button to choose for the hearing impaired; what it does is signals the person at the window that the car that is coming up has a deaf person, and they will order their order at the window instead of the box; or to notify that employee to send out another employee to take that person's order so that she can pay at the window.

If more people had to "fight" for parking and actually walk into a restaurant, maybe we (Americans) wouldn't all be so fat.

Not that I don't think drivethrus shouldn't accommodate everyone, just that I have a hard time being outraged by the thought that - gasp - someone would actually have to get out of their car and walk.

[Cavemonster]

Is this really the hill she wants to die on?

The goal of a franchise is economic, and to the extent that it's public service, this is way down on the list.

Here's the economic question the restaurants need to answer. Out of the whole deaf population, how many would use the drive through? How many refuse to eat at the restaurant now by coming inside, but would go there if the drive through was more friendly?

Even the OP states that this woman, who is demonstrably more PO'd about the inconvenience than most deaf folks, still eats at the restaurant by parking and walking in.

The goal of a business isn't to make every customer as happy as possible, it's to sell as much crap as possible. If even this woman is still buying burgers, there is absolutely no compelling economic reason for the business to change.

[Uncayimmy]

So, let me get this straight... the same employee who told her to get back in line to use the box, couldn't have taken her order and told her to get back in line to pick it up later? There is no need to hold everyone waiting. It just requires to be thinking about a solution, instead of thinking about excuses to be a dick.

Are you seriously suggesting that the person come all the way to the window, place the order, then go to the back of the line of cars? Seriously? That has got to be the stupidest suggestion yet for someone pissed off about the inconvenience of going into the store. In many of the drive-thrus where I live, you actually have to exit the property on to a major street in order to re-enter the property and get back in line. In some cases you can't turn left, so you'd drive to drive around the block just to get back to the store. Even if it's relatively easy to get back to the end of the line, how many cars will be in front of her when she gets there? Is she really supposed to wait behind 10 cars, place her order, then wait behind another 10 cars to pick up her food and be happy about that?

[GreyICE]

Well UY's tendency for hyperbole has wrecked another thread. So far, he has said the following:


That the woman is extorting the business
It would cost at least $1,000 for a "Deaf person" or "Needs assistance" button (apparently the cost of electric doorbells hasn't been priced since, oh, Thomas friggin Edison)
It's not a reasonable accommodation (evidence, of course, not entirely forthcoming, especially since restaurants already accommodate blind passengers - and which involves even greater disruption to the utterly undisruptable (without disastrous consequences) process that UY describes)
9-22 people (presumably in the entire US? He didn't really define it) are deaf.
He specifically mentions places that only have the drive through open late at night. In the context of drive throughs not serving deaf people. Then he postulates that this inability isn't a big inconvenience. Yes. Really. Logical dichotomies that big should cause head explosions, I agree.
Vandalism might occur more often because of the button. Yes. He expects us to take this argument seriously.


UY, engaging with someone making points of this caliber is utterly, well... pointless (a tad like your posts). The penultimate in my list specifically destroyed half of your posts. It was contained within your own post. And you didn't notice it. I literally cannot understand how this occurred.

I am appalled at the deficient logic you've shown here. I know you like to play devil's advocate, but in this case you're playing with half a deck.

[Silly Green Monkey]

On a related note, I work paper delivery, so drive-throughs are all I get. The lobbies are all closed.

[Uncayimmy]

Well UY's tendency for hyperbole has wrecked another thread. So far, he has said the following:
And your lack of reading comprehension has resulted in another wasted post.

That the woman is extorting the business
Nope. I said the tactic of "do what we we want or we will make you look bad in the press" is akin to extortion. The more reasonable and civil approach is to put together a meeting of local franchise owners to discuss the problem and try to find mutually beneficial solutions. Making demands and threatening bad press is a ****** way to go.

It would cost at least $1,000 for a "Deaf person" or "Needs assistance" button (apparently the cost of electric doorbells hasn't been priced since, oh, Thomas friggin Edison)
Apparently you didn't read my explanation. It's not just a doorbell. We're talking about mounting a switch that is reachable by the driver. If it's reachable by the driver, it's easily hit by cars, so you'll need one of those steel poles protecting it. The switch will be mounted on something sturdy and need to be survive all sorts of weather as well as abuse and vandalism (why do you think they don't put the talk boxes within arm's reach?). The cable needs to run from outside into the building. Some stores rely on wireless systems as the clerk walks around, so it has to get integrated into that system. If there's a visual display to confirm the order, then people will expect some sort of feedback that the clerk knows the button was pushed. Even without a display monitor, I would think you'd want a system where a light goes on when you press the switch and it goes off as a form of acknowledgement. Of course, you'll need to create and mount a sign explaining this.

I'm probably not thinking of all the other ramifications of integrating this into a more sophisticated system. I'm not factoring in the revenue lost while workers install the system or the extra charges for doing it late at night after the store is closed. Then there are training issues and updating internal documentation. This is further evidence of why the "do what we want or we'll make you look bad in the press" approach is such a dick move - most people have no idea what's involved on the other side.


It's not a reasonable accommodation (evidence, of course, not entirely forthcoming, especially since restaurants already accommodate blind passengers - and which involves even greater disruption to the utterly undisruptable (without disastrous consequences) process that UY describes)
I have no idea what you're talking about. How are blind passengers accommodated? I've never seen a drive-thru menu board I could touch while sitting in the vehicle, much less the passenger. Are you talking about a speech based menu or the simple fact that, I dunno, the clerk can talk to people?

9-22 people (presumably in the entire US? He didn't really define it) are deaf.
As I said, I got the number from Galludet and provided a link. If you're too lazy to read how a college for the deaf defines their statistics, that's not my problem.

He specifically mentions places that only have the drive through open late at night. In the context of drive throughs not serving deaf people. Then he postulates that this inability isn't a big inconvenience. Yes. Really. Logical dichotomies that big should cause head explosions, I agree.
Again, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Vandalism might occur more often because of the button. Yes. He expects us to take this argument seriously.
I don't know what world you live in, but vandalism happens all the time. You've never seen drive-thru windows with graffiti on the frames? If you put something reachable from the vehicle and pretty much out of sight of the store, people are going to vandalize it. Maybe you were never a teenage boy or a drunk college student with the munchies.

I am appalled at the deficient logic you've shown here. I know you like to play devil's advocate, but in this case you're playing with half a deck.
Whatever you say, sweetheart.

[Rat]

...Apparently you didn't read my explanation. It's not just a doorbell. We're talking about mounting a switch that is reachable by the driver. If it's reachable by the driver, it's easily hit by cars, so you'll need one of those steel poles protecting it.
Well, I often park in car parks where I have to press a button and take a ticket on the way in, and then feed the ticket back in on the way out. So far, I've managed not to hit the box that does the tickets. In fact, as far as I can tell, so has everyone else that uses the car park, since the machine looks quite old, yet is standing upright and has no noticeable dents. Are US drivers significantly worse drivers than those in the UK?

[Checkmite]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/local-15749667/18564094

I totally agree with this woman; having a family member who is deaf (she can read lips), she has to always park her car and walk into a restaurant, if the that restaurant doesn't have a drive thru with a special box for the deaf to use. This causes her an inconvenience as she has to fight for parking, then walk into a crowded restaurant to order her food, while those in the Drive thru can get their food easily, and not have to take the extra time to get ouf their cars to order food.

What do you guys think?

At the risk of being called a mean person? I'm skeptical. I, for one, have never, ever seen a fast food joint so crowded and busy that you can't find a parking space or have to fight through a crowd inside. I have, conversely, seen drive-thru lines backed up incredibly; and on many an occasion I've been able to park, walk inside, and walk out with my order in less than five minutes' time when waiting in the drive thru line would've taken much longer.

[Uncayimmy]

Well, I often park in car parks where I have to press a button and take a ticket on the way in, and then feed the ticket back in on the way out. So far, I've managed not to hit the box that does the tickets. In fact, as far as I can tell, so has everyone else that uses the car park, since the machine looks quite old, yet is standing upright and has no noticeable dents. Are US drivers significantly worse drivers than those in the UK?

If you think nobody else has ever hit those devices, you're sadly mistaken. If you think that it's not routine for businesses to install protective devices, maybe it's just a UK thing or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maid-Rite_Drive_Thru.jpg
Look in the lower left corner of the picture. See the steel device there? See how beat up it is?

http://www.menga.net/wp-content/uploads/drive-thru-2.jpg
See the poles installed here?

http://brentwood.thefuntimesguide.com/images/StarbucksDriveThru.jpg
Take a look at the above picture. See how far back from the curb the call box is set. If you don't understand why, look at all the black tire marks on the curb.

http://morningbounce.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/drive-thru.jpg
Look at how many devices these people installed to keep people from hitting the building. They have four of them plus what appears to be a wood barrier.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2126/2421200625_63febe7360.jpg
This image has several poles protecting what looks to be a drive-thru at a bank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/remithornton/2453739794/in/photostream/
Since you're talking about parking garages, here's an example of what I typically see around here. Note the protective pole.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/remithornton/2453739448/
But since you were talking specifically about ones where you take a ticket, the above is an example

The point I am making with all of this is that it's not anything like installing a doorbell. I'm not saying it's rocket surgery. I'm saying there are a lot of considerations, and that might include tearing up asphalt or concrete, mounting barrier poles, having custom mounts created, and so forth. It's a lot easier to do when you install the drive-thru. It can be a bitch doing it later.

[GreyICE]

You know, most people would at least be embarassed when they postulate it's not a major inconvenience for deaf people to be unable to use the drive thru window, then note in the same post that many places only have the drive thru open late at night. They'd at least try to reconcile these two statements.

Now lets move on from that particularly inane problem of yours. Your engineering is, well... insane. Putting a simple wireless doorbell on the top of an existing post, along with a $10 sign would absolutely satisfy everything required. You want a system integrated into a computer subsystem with a call box, lcd display, permanent installation, etc. That's nuts. Any idiot can desgin a $1,000 solution to a simple problem. I can design a $1,000 way to let your cat out of the house when it wants to go out, and in when it wants to go in. I'd need a mechanized door, a battery backup system, an RFID tag in the collar, a wireless RFID reader connected to the mechanization, with a secondary system to allow you to connect it to a 24/7 timer array to prevent the cat from exiting the house at times when you don't want to go out... or I can install a cat flap. You'd insist the cat flap is impossible. You'd insist I don't grasp the complexities of the cat exiting engineering problem. You'd insist that I just don't get it. You would be, on the whole, 100% wrong.

UncaYimmy doesn't understand the problem with his logic, and it is apparent he's just not going to. That summarizes my entire problem with his "logical reasoning," and no amount of "Sweethearts," "honies," and flirting will stop that. Jesus, have you been debating VFF so long you're copying her tactics? I don't flirt on the internet and I rather strongly doubt I'd flirt with you in real life, so stop it. It's pretty creepy, and I have a high tolerance for creepy.

[Uncayimmy]

You know, most people would at least be embarassed when they postulate it's not a major inconvenience for deaf people to be unable to use the drive thru window, then note in the same post that many places only have the drive thru open late at night. They'd at least try to reconcile these two statements.
I'm not embarrassed in the least to say that it's not a "major inconvenience" because I have been through exactly the same thing. I've been in vehicles too big to go through the drive-thru. I've arrived on a bicycle, and bikes are not allowed through. And quite often I simply choose to walk inside to get my carry-out. Drive-thru windows were added as an additional convenience for a limited subset of people. I don't consider at "major inconvenience" to not be able to use an additional convenience when I can still walk away with what I'm after the same as countless other people.

I've arrived on foot after the lobby has closed and been turned away. Same for bicycles and over-sized vehicles. Yeh, that's no fun, but that's a choice the store makes.

Now lets move on from that particularly inane problem of yours. Your engineering is, well... insane. Putting a simple wireless doorbell on the top of an existing post, along with a $10 sign would absolutely satisfy everything required.
I see what you did there. You ignored all of the problems I presented. Did you even look at the pictures I provided? Typically the call boxes are not within reach of the driver. Your hand waving does not resolve the problem.

And what does this doorbell do? Make something go "ding dong" in the store? Stores are noisy, and many stores use wireless headsets because the clerk is walking around filling orders. Sometimes the clerk is 50 feet away from the window blending a shake. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it's not a quick fix. If you want to go that direction, you need multiple bells installed or a really, really loud one, but that presents its own issues.

You want a system integrated into a computer subsystem with a call box, lcd display, permanent installation, etc. That's nuts.
Permanent installation is insane? You think duct taping a Home Depot doorbell is all that's needed? Hell, I'm not convinced you can even get an off-the-shelf wireless doorbell that's going to work reliably. Their ranges are limited in the open air and even more so by walls, metal, and probably radio interference. Take a look at the distance in the picture below.
http://www.menga.net/wp-content/uploads/drive-thru-2.jpg

Of course, this button is going to have to be ADA compliant. Good luck finding that at Home Depot.

As for wanting it integrated into my system, why wouldn't I want that? Why do you think they spend so much money on automated systems. Basically, you're insisting that the store trade-off expense for disruption to their normal work-flow in a business that depends heavily on streamlined work-flow. I'd want the system to notify the customer that I know they are coming. I wouldn't be surprised if without such a system they ring the bell a bunch of times. Of course, no teenagers are going to ring the bell for kicks.

UncaYimmy doesn't understand the problem with his logic, and it is apparent he's just not going to.
What's with the third person stuff? You giving a speech now?

The two major issue issues here are the burden on the disabled and the burden on the business in lessening the burden on the disabled. The burden placed on the business must be commensurate with the burden relieved for the disabled persons. As I said, I don't see it as a major burden to ask deaf people to come inside the store to order. They ask the same thing of non-disabled people, and some people make that same choice all on their own. In the end the disabled people get their food. They also get it in the same manner as many other customers. Their gripe is that other people can do it more "conveniently" than they can. Like I said, they call it a disability for a reason.

Then there's the burden on the store. We can argue about what we think it's going to cost. I have provided ample evidence that's not something you do for $15 in 15 minutes. According to this blog (http://njnnetwork.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/fast-food-order-system-for-hearing-impaired-improves-business/), the OrderAssist system costs about $1,500 installed, and it's not integrated into the system like a McDonald's or other high-volume store would want. As I pointed out, installation cost is going to depend on the physical layout of your store.'

Then there's the burden on the business in the form of inconvenience for other customers. You completely ignore that. I explained this already, but simply put, the deaf person starts the ordering process when it should be ending. Everybody behind this person has to wait for her order to be processed from start to finish.

The OrderAssist system relies on a clipboard where the customer fills out a piece of paper to place the order. The clerk then has to enter this into the system. Without a doubt, this is slower. In the context of a drive-thru, that's adding even more time for what could be multiple people having to wait when they otherwise wouldn't have to. I'm okay with the clipboard inside the store, but not in the drive-thru because it makes a bad situation worse.

In summary, the store has the burden of additional cash outlay and inconveniencing other customers so that one person is not "inconvenienced" by doing the same thing that numerous other customers do every single day. On those grounds I see no reason to force a business to do it by law. If a store wants to do it, they are more than welcome to, but that's not the question here.

[Uncayimmy]

Apparently some sites didn't like me linking directly to the images (no, that's not hot-linking). I referenced this one a few times, so here's the page where it's found:
http://menga.net/4090

The article is about drive-thrus, and the author writes:
Have you ever noticed some chipped/scuffed paint on those poles? That’s from morons that hit them. The menu that’s recessed (i.e. put back further) is placed where it is for the same reason – to avoid cars hitting it.

It is nothing short of amazing how much time and effort (and money) is put forth just to make sure morons don’t hit the speakers, signs and drive-thru windows.

[HansMustermann]

Are you seriously suggesting that the person come all the way to the window, place the order, then go to the back of the line of cars? Seriously? That has got to be the stupidest suggestion yet for someone pissed off about the inconvenience of going into the store. In many of the drive-thrus where I live, you actually have to exit the property on to a major street in order to re-enter the property and get back in line. In some cases you can't turn left, so you'd drive to drive around the block just to get back to the store. Even if it's relatively easy to get back to the end of the line, how many cars will be in front of her when she gets there? Is she really supposed to wait behind 10 cars, place her order, then wait behind another 10 cars to pick up her food and be happy about that?

The employee had _already_ insisted that she gets back in line. That part was a given one way or the other. All I'm saying is that he could have at least taken her order, instead of just being a complete dick.

[LTC8K6]

I'm still amazed that a deaf person can drive, while I can get a large fine for doing anything while driving that might cause me to be unable to hear...

[Darat]

I'm still amazed that a deaf person can drive, while I can get a large fine for doing anything while driving that might cause me to be unable to hear...


"Being deaf" doesn't mean that you are necessarily totally deaf (as in can't hear anything) and even for totally deaf people I'd want to see some evidence that totally deaf drivers are a significant risk as a group above and beyond non-deaf groups, such as say males under the age of 25.

[LTC8K6]

Sure, I guess if they can hear a horn and any warning chimes, they'd be okay. If they can't, then they shouldn't be driving, imo.

After all, if you are totally deaf, then you wouldn't be able to hear the drive thru operator when they ask you what you want to order. You wouldn't know when to respond. If you can hear somewhat, then you'd know the operator said something to you.

However, lately the big focus has been on distractions to the driver. I wonder if actually having to look at the passenger to communicate is a big distraction? Either to read lips or for sign?

I'm certain those folks on those loud motorcycles can't hear a damn thing anyway. Certainly not my horn honking at them. :D

In fact, when they are near my car, I can't hear anything either...

Yet no one does a thing about them. The claim being the noise somehow saves them from other drivers...

[Tailgater]

You know, most people would at least be embarassed when they postulate it's not a major inconvenience for deaf people to be unable to use the drive thru window, then note in the same post that many places only have the drive thru open late at night. They'd at least try to reconcile these two statements.


It's even more inconvenient if you don't have your car.

[Arus808]

At the risk of being called a mean person? I'm skeptical. I, for one, have never, ever seen a fast food joint so crowded and busy that you can't find a parking space or have to fight through a crowd inside. I have, conversely, seen drive-thru lines backed up incredibly; and on many an occasion I've been able to park, walk inside, and walk out with my order in less than five minutes' time when waiting in the drive thru line would've taken much longer.


haha visit LA anytime...especially an In and Out

[Uncayimmy]

The employee had _already_ insisted that she gets back in line. That part was a given one way or the other. All I'm saying is that he could have at least taken her order, instead of just being a complete dick.

It could very well be that this was the first time ever that this person went through the drive-thru and was told that she needs to go into the store to place the order. I have my doubts about that. Even if that's the case, the person needs to know that this is not their policy. I can think of a number of people I know who deliberately violate the rules knowing that each time they will get an exception just that one time. It's a little game they play to get special treatment.

What about the other people in line behind her? The line is chugging along like the little assembly line that it is. Suddenly, it stops with one person sitting at the window for far longer than normal only to be handed a drink and a small bag. I don't know about you, but that would piss me off if I'm sitting in line behind this person. The clerk is stuck between a rock and a hard place - piss off one person with good reason or pissing off several people because an exception was made for somebody else. I'm not going to call the clerk a "complete dick" for choosing the former.

There's also the issue that in some stores they track order times, both individually and on average. The clerk runs the risk of encountering the wrath of the manager. What's his explanation? That he violated store policy during the rush period? Yeh, that's going to go over well. If it's a mom and pop store without all the fancy order tracking gear and nobody in line behind the deaf person, I'd be okay with the clerk making an exception.

Calling this person a complete dick is unwarranted.

[Pantaz]

Rather than just complain, how about working on a solution? Contact the drive-thru equipment manufacturers with ideas/proposals. They could probably work it up as a positive marketing point.

<off-topic>

I'm certain those folks on those loud motorcycles can't hear a damn thing anyway. Certainly not my horn honking at them. :D

In fact, when they are near my car, I can't hear anything either...

Yet no one does a thing about them. The claim being the noise somehow saves them from other drivers...

There is work being done within the motorcycling community to raise awareness -- http://www.google.com/search?q=loud+pipes+risk+rights
</off-topic>