50% of Israelis support Apartheid

[Thunder]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=170735

50% of Israeli high school kids are against equal rights for Arabs.

56% of Israeli high school kids want Arabs forbidden from being members of the Knesset.

50% of Israeli religious high school kids think "Death to Arabs" is a legitimate slogan.

what the **** is happening over there?????

what good is calling yourself a Western-democracy...if half of your young people do not believe in the basic principles of freedom and equality??

Oy vey.

[cornsail]

Not saying this is wrong, but the last jpost poll that was posted was definitely questionable.

[quixotecoyote]

I find it interesting which poll results Parky posted, and which he omitted.

[Thunder]

i posted an article from the Jerusalem Post. Are you suggesting they have an anti-Jewish bias?

:D

[cornsail]

I find it interesting which poll results Parky posted, and which he omitted.

Why? Do you think

"The survey further showed that nearly 70% of Arab youngsters living in Israel defined themselves as being “Palestinian patriots,”

justifies unequal rights / hatred? I've met several American Jews who consider themselves Israeli patriots and I don't consider them lesser citizens.

[Moss]

As one commenter noted 536 school children isn't all that much of a sample size.I'd love to see the full poll results. I'd also like to know how the other 50 percent of children answered.

[Thunder]

justifies unequal rights / hatred? I've met several American Jews who consider themselves Israeli patriots and I don't consider them lesser citizens.

The fact remains that 50% of Israeli-Jewish high school kids don't think Arabs should have equal rights, and 56% of them think Arabs should not be allowed to serve in the Knesset.

This does not bode well for the future of democracy and freedom in the Jewish State.

[cornsail]

i posted an article from the Jerusalem Post. Are you suggesting they have an anti-Jewish bias?

:D

Don't be ridiculous.. The last Jerusalem Post article you posted reported a misleading/incorrect poll result. Wrong = anti-Jewish bias? I said nothing about you having a bias, in fact in the last thread I defended you against that accusation.

Media polls should be treated skeptically.

[NWO Sentryman]

This sis the thing with a stratified sample: you don't know where they live, who they are, whether they are representative of the majority etc. This is why i dislike polls because by that logic i could say, take a poll of 1000 people and 75% of them could say that 9/11 was an inside job. Does that mean the majorty of people thing 9/11 was an inside job?

[Thunder]

Media polls should be treated skeptically.

the poll was NOT conducted by the JPost.

[cornsail]

As one commenter noted 536 school children isn't all that much of a sample size.I'd love to see the full poll results. I'd also like to know how the other 50 percent of children answered.

No, 536 is plenty large as long as it was sufficiently random.

[Moss]

If this turns into an argument about selfhating jews I'll preventively hit you all with my copy of Otto Weininger's Geschlecht und Charakter.

[cornsail]

the poll was NOT conducted by the JPost.

Sorry, let me rephrase that: Media reports of polls should be treated with skepticism.

[Moss]

No, 536 is plenty large as long as it was sufficiently random.
That's why I am interested in the context of the poll results.
And Magar Mohot seems to be an Israeli survey institute. But can't find much more info on them.

[quixotecoyote]

justifies unequal rights / hatred? I've met several American Jews who consider themselves Israeli patriots and I don't consider them lesser citizens.

Not particularly, but then again American Jews aren't dropping rockets on my house or trying to blow me up when I go to the grocery store. If they were doing that, I'd say claims of strong patriotism tied to that cause would make my dislike of that group rather more rational.

I don't feel like reposting the arguments I've made in the other thread, so you just get my perspective here. Israel is as close to a free liberal democracy as you're going to find in the mideast. Both sides of the Palestinian schism do not appear interested in peace, do not appear willing to co-exist, and if successful would lead to a regime of oppression that would go just a bit beyond building houses where they aren't supposed to.

[Personal Grudge]

I have a feeling that the situation has been (and will continue to be) animosity from both sides that will not dissipate. I have no doubt that a great many Israelis wish all Palistineans gone (or deprived or rights if they stay.) On the other end, I'm sure many Palistineans wish the same for the Israelis. I wouldn't be surprised by poll results such as this. It's very likely that a poll taken among Palistineans would reveal similar results.

In the end, Israel is an ally of the U.S., which therefore skews the general view among Americans in a more positive direction toward the Israelis. In the end, it just seems that two factions exist who both see themselves as "in the right". Continuing to push for peace in this region continues to be a noble effort. But we might need to start asking ourselves if supporting any side in this argument is a wise move.

Then again, I'm not exactly the most informed individual regarding the state of Israel, so I could certainly be ignorant of many relevant facts. On the surface, it just seems like two extreme factions with irreconcilable differences. It becomes difficult for me to label the Israelis as the "good guys"... just as much as I can't label the Palistineans the "bad guys".

[chum]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1155627.html

Much better article concerning the poll. Some details of the poll:


The poll was commissioned last month by Maagar Mochot, an Israeli research institution, under the supervision of Prof. Yitzhak Katz. It took a sampling of 536 Jewish and Arab respondents between the ages of 15-18.


Maybe someone has some more information about Maagar Mochot and Prof. Yitzhak Katz, I couldn't find anything on google.

[HawksFan]

Parky, perhaps you could just hop on over there and straighten everything out? I mean it shouldn't take long for them to see the light once you explain it to them, right?

[Thunder]

Parky, perhaps you could just hop on over there and straighten everything out? I mean it shouldn't take long for them to see the light once you explain it to them, right?

sorry, going to Prague and Vienna this summer. Maybe I'll hit Tel Aviv next year.

[HawksFan]

Ah, well, their loss.

[cornsail]

Not particularly, but then again American Jews aren't dropping rockets on my house or trying to blow me up when I go to the grocery store.

Is it your understanding that most Arab Israelis drop rockets on people's houses and try to blow them up when they go to the grocery store?

[Captain.Sassy]

This sis the thing with a stratified sample: you don't know where they live, who they are, whether they are representative of the majority etc. This is why i dislike polls because by that logic i could say, take a poll of 1000 people and 75% of them could say that 9/11 was an inside job. Does that mean the majorty of people thing 9/11 was an inside job?


Depends on how you selected your sample. 1000 is a decent sized sample.

[quixotecoyote]

Is it your understanding that most Arab Israelis drop rockets on people's houses and try to blow them up when they go to the grocery store?

<cough> <cough> <spit>

Sorry, too busy choking on those words you put in my mouth to listen.

What was that again?

[Beerina]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=170735

50% of Israeli high school kids are against equal rights for Arabs.

56% of Israeli high school kids want Arabs forbidden from being members of the Knesset.

50% of Israeli religious high school kids think "Death to Arabs" is a legitimate slogan.

what the **** is happening over there?????

what good is calling yourself a Western-democracy...if half of your young people do not believe in the basic principles of freedom and equality??

Oy vey.

What are the percentages for the reverse in Arab schools?

[cornsail]

<cough> <cough> <spit>

Sorry, too busy choking on those words you put in my mouth to listen.

What was that again?

Asking a question is not putting words into your mouth.

I made a comparison of American Jews patriotic toward Israel to Israeli Arabs patriotic toward Palestine--not a perfect comparison, but both feel patriotism to a land outside their country of citizenship.

You seemed to make the point that American Jews are not engaging in terrorism against America and that that is a difference between the two. That seems to imply that you think Israeli Arabs are engaging in terrorism against Israel.

Maybe including the word "most" was where I went wrong(?).

I think (note the qualifier "I think"--I'm still not putting words into your mouth) what you meant to say was that the difference is Israel/Israelis (rather than American Jews) are not dropping rockets on American houses, therefore American Jews who feel patriotic toward Israel are less objectionable. Do I have that right?

My counter argument would be that I am a patriotic American, but that doesn't mean I support everything America or Americans do. The same goes for Israel and Palestine.

[Thunder]

can you guys imagine 50% of white Americans believing that black Americans should not have full equality? 56% of white Americans thinking black Americans should not be able to serve in Congress?

we would be a nation in crisis..if such a thing occured.

[pchams]

can you guys imagine 50% of white Americans believing that black Americans should not have full equality? 56% of white Americans thinking black Americans should not be able to serve in Congress?

we would be a nation in crisis..if such a thing occured.

How is this a surprise?
50% of Israelis are predjudiced? Stop the presses!!
50% of "white" Americans probably don't want equality for blacks.
So what? Have you just awakened?
You've pointed out the obvious.
Now, do you have anything to say, or to contribute to race relations?
Useless posts should go in the can.

Please post something more about Israel, cause we're all ears!!!

[cornsail]

can you guys imagine 50% of white Americans believing that black Americans should not have full equality? 56% of white Americans thinking black Americans should not be able to serve in Congress?

we would be a nation in crisis..if such a thing occured.

Naw, black people commit a lot of crime so that would be totally understandable. Oh yeah and life isn't fair. Boo hoo, you dumb liberals!![/parody]

[cornsail]

50% of "white" Americans probably don't want equality for blacks.

Evidence?

[pchams]

Evidence?
It has as much evidence as parky76's evidence. Note: "probably"
Can I interest you in a sarcasm meter?

[pchams]

Yes, let's hear from more naive piddlers about Israel. It's puts the "E" in the JREF.
Can anyone from the area chime in? Please?
New Yorkers aren't there.

[pchams]

77% of the internet thinks yer a wanker...now what?
Damn statistics!

[cornsail]

It has as much evidence as parky76's evidence. Note: "probably"

Link to polls (or at least media article about polls) then?

[Puppycow]

There is no hope for peace between Israel/Palestine in the lifetime of anyone here.

It's a completely hopeless situation because of both sides.

[DarthFishy]

Don't these Israeli students know Apartheid ended 16 years ago when the ANC won the general election in South Africa?

<rant>

Apartheid is an emotionally laden term yes, which explains why certain people want to use it to describe the situation in Israel. Unfortunately it is the incorrect term to use as it describes a specific historical event (hence it being in the Language of the country in question).

It's equivalent to calling the Armenian Genocide the Holocaust. Two similar but historically different events.

</rant>

[cornsail]

DarthFishy: Agreed.

[ddt]

Apartheid is an emotionally laden term yes, which explains why certain people want to use it to describe the situation in Israel. Unfortunately it is the incorrect term to use as it describes a specific historical event (hence it being in the Language of the country in question).

It's equivalent to calling the Armenian Genocide the Holocaust. Two similar but historically different events.
I do understand your emotional issue with this. But the term apartheid has been defined as a specific crime (wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid)), so it's in the same category as "genocide", as well as in the same category as "holocaust".

[DarthFishy]

ddt: Ok I admit I didn't know it had been defined in International Law. That does change the issue somewhat.

I would advise though that if one wishes to use the word Apartheid in any political rhetoric that it might be a good idea to fully study up on what Apartheid was. While I do not want to defend in any way what the National Party did during that period it is important to understand what happened during that time before using the term as a rhetorical tool.

Of course the issue of where the situation in Israel satisfies the conditions to be called Apartheid is a whole other question (and thread).

[quixotecoyote]

Asking a question is not putting words into your mouth.

I made a comparison of American Jews patriotic toward Israel to Israeli Arabs patriotic toward Palestine--not a perfect comparison, but both feel patriotism to a land outside their country of citizenship.

You seemed to make the point that American Jews are not engaging in terrorism against America and that that is a difference between the two. That seems to imply that you think Israeli Arabs are engaging in terrorism against Israel.

Maybe including the word "most" was where I went wrong(?).

I think (note the qualifier "I think"--I'm still not putting words into your mouth) what you meant to say was that the difference is Israel/Israelis (rather than American Jews) are not dropping rockets on American houses, therefore American Jews who feel patriotic toward Israel are less objectionable. Do I have that right?

My counter argument would be that I am a patriotic American, but that doesn't mean I support everything America or Americans do. The same goes for Israel and Palestine.

I think you've stretched the analogy to the point where it makes less sense than that which it is meant to clarify.

And for the record, adding "so you think," "are you saying," "do you mean" or any other similar bit right before a negatively skewed rephrase of another person's post isn't a justification for it.

If you want me to clarify, just ask. In this case I'm saying that you have a population who has tried to make peace several times over the decades, and it's been rather one-sided as to who has been breaking peace deals and holding up the process.

The side that keeps breaking peace deals also has a tendency to try to kill you, and then gain international support when you counterattack.

Now, there's a large population of your own people who sympathize with that side. They consider themselves strongly patriotic in support of that other side that wants to destroy your nation.

Bigotry is never a good thing, and I'm sure that's involved to some extent, but I can also see why you might not want to give full rights and equality to a group that's cheering on (or helping) the side that wants your nation destroyed and your race exterminated.

[cornsail]

I think you've stretched the analogy to the point where it makes less sense than that which it is meant to clarify.

It's the same analogy. You stretched it by throwing in the thing about American Jews dropping rockets on people's houses--I was just pointing out why that made no sense.

And for the record, adding "so you think," "are you saying," "do you mean" or any other similar bit right before a negatively skewed rephrase of another person's post isn't a justification for it.

I disagree..

If you want me to clarify, just ask.

Okay, next time I need to ask for clarification I'll try to word it more directly.

In this case I'm saying that you have a population who has tried to make peace several times over the decades, and it's been rather one-sided as to who has been breaking peace deals and holding up the process.

The side that keeps breaking peace deals also has a tendency to try to kill you, and then gain international support when you counterattack.

Now, there's a large population of your own people who sympathize with that side. They consider themselves strongly patriotic in support of that other side that wants to destroy your nation.

Bigotry is never a good thing, and I'm sure that's involved to some extent, but I can also see why you might not want to give full rights and equality to a group that's cheering on (or helping) the side that wants your nation destroyed and your race exterminated.

Wow... your description is completely one-sided and wrong on so many levels it's hard to know how to respond.

Even if it were accurate, though, it's not a reason to be racially intolerant. You are talking about ideology, not race. Generalizing these accusations to all Palestinians or to all Arabs in the area is not justifiable or rational. Jews should know this as well as anyone. Also there are many Israeli Jews who are sympathetic toward Palestinians and many Israeli Arabs who don't identify with them (or at least don't "feel patriotism" with Palestine). I think you would agree based on your "Bigotry is never a good thing", but I don't agree with the "but I can also see why you might not want to give full rights and equality..." bit. And don't forget the "death to Arabs" poll.

[ddt]

ddt: Ok I admit I didn't know it had been defined in International Law. That does change the issue somewhat.
No problem.


I would advise though that if one wishes to use the word Apartheid in any political rhetoric that it might be a good idea to fully study up on what Apartheid was. While I do not want to defend in any way what the National Party did during that period it is important to understand what happened during that time before using the term as a rhetorical tool.
The way you word it piques my curiosity - it seems as if you're saying that SA Apartheid was somehow "less serious" than normally portrayed. Do you want to expand on that (better in a new thread then)?


Of course the issue of where the situation in Israel satisfies the conditions to be called Apartheid is a whole other question (and thread).
Commonly, it's only applied to the situation in the occupied territories (specifically, the West Bank) - there have been some threads here that discussed the issue.

[cornsail]

Hmm I didn't know that about the word "apartheid" either.

[Thunder]

50% of "white" Americans probably don't want equality for blacks.


yeah...maybe in 1963.

[quixotecoyote]

Okay, next time I need to ask for clarification I'll try to word it more directly.

Thanks :)

Wow... your description is completely one-sided and wrong on so many levels it's hard to know how to respond.

To my mind, the situation is pretty one-sided too. We have a tendency to try to balance sides so that we're always seeing both sides of a story. Sometimes that means giving an antivaxer airtime on a show encouraging vaccinating your kids, other times it's discussing a international situation where one side is quite obviously run by oppressive terrorists and the other is run by people who respect a free democracy, flawed though they are, and trying to fit them into some kind of moral equivalency.

Even if it were accurate, though, it's not a reason to be racially intolerant. You are talking about ideology, not race. Generalizing these accusations to all Palestinians or to all Arabs in the area is not justifiable or rational.

Possibly not rational, but I'm willing to cut people a little slack when the object of their intolerance (Arab Israelis) actually do largely support a threat to their existence.

[Einzig]

ddt: Ok I admit I didn't know it had been defined in International Law. That does change the issue somewhat.

I would advise though that if one wishes to use the word Apartheid in any political rhetoric that it might be a good idea to fully study up on what Apartheid was. While I do not want to defend in any way what the National Party did during that period it is important to understand what happened during that time before using the term as a rhetorical tool.

Of course the issue of where the situation in Israel satisfies the conditions to be called Apartheid is a whole other question (and thread).

Actually the Dutch word 'apartheid' simply means separation. Just lose the caps and you're good.

[cornsail]

To my mind, the situation is pretty one-sided too. We have a tendency to try to balance sides so that we're always seeing both sides of a story. Sometimes that means giving an antivaxer airtime on a show encouraging vaccinating your kids, other times it's discussing a international situation where one side is quite obviously run by oppressive terrorists and the other is run by people who respect a free democracy, flawed though they are, and trying to fit them into some kind of moral equivalency.

Woww.. I completely disagree, and not because I have some goofy idea about two sides always having to be balanced. But that's another topic in itself.

Possibly not rational, but I'm willing to cut people a little slack when the object of their intolerance (Arab Israelis) actually do largely support a threat to their existence.
Palestine is a threat to Israel's existence? Seriously?

[quixotecoyote]

Woww.. I completely disagree, and not because I have some goofy idea about two sides always having to be balanced. But that's another topic in itself.
Fair enough. Thanks for being civil about it. :)


Palestine is a threat to Israel's existence? Seriously?

Well, they try. I'd say they pose more of a threat than Al Qaeda poses to the US, but less than Germany did to Poland.

[Thunder]

Call it "Hafrada". Call it "apartheid". Whatever you call it, many Israelis support it.

[cornsail]

Al Qaeda is a threat to the US, but not to its existence. I don't think their goal is to make us not exist. I also don't know that Palestinians are trying to make Israel not exist.. (note: might have misinterpreted you)

But you must understand that there is much more to patriotism than support for the actions of your government/leadership. I love America, but I hate our foreign policy and many aspects of our domestic policy (which I consider highly immoral). So the fact that I might say I feel patriotism toward the US... sure maybe that makes it a little more understandable that people in a country the US has brutalized might think I deserve to die. But not to the point where I'd "cut them some slack". I'm trying not to Goodwin, but the initial Nazi line was "Jews aren't really a people", "Jews are morally depraved and a threat to our society", "Jews shouldn't have equal rights"... (paraphrasing early Nazi propaganda writers). No, I'm not saying Israel's treatment of their Arab citizens is anywhere near as bad as the Nazis' treatment of Jews. I'm saying you can't justify racial hatred and discrimination with that kind of logic.

[quixotecoyote]

Al Qaeda is a threat to the US, but not to its existence. I don't think their goal is to make us not exist. I also don't know that Palestinians are trying to make Israel not exist.. (note: might have misinterpreted you)

I dunno about Al Qaeda, but I think it's a reasonable interpretation of both Palestinian factions intent.

But you must understand that there is much more to patriotism than support for the actions of your government/leadership. I love America, but I hate our foreign policy and many aspects of our domestic policy (which I consider highly immoral). So the fact that I might say I feel patriotism toward the US... sure maybe that makes it a little more understandable that people in a country the US has brutalized might think I deserve to die. But not to the point where I'd "cut them some slack".

I think it's a difference of opinion where "understandable" stops and "cut them some slack" starts. Still, you're making me rethink my opinion.

[bigjelmapro]

Shouldn't this give a clear indication of who was included in this poll (from the article given)?:


Nearly one-third - 31 percent - said they would refuse military service beyond the Green Line.
...
While an overwhelming majority (91 percent) expressed a desire to enlist in the Israel Defense Forces, 48 percent said they would not obey an order to evacuate outposts and settlements in the West Bank.

I would like to see another poll done with a wider and larger group.

And as for the misleading title of this thread (no surprise there) should be changed to the same as the article, "Poll: Half of Israeli high schoolers oppose equal rights for Arabs"