A dissenting student hounded for his views

[Tony]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-105705-1963r.htm ..full article

Tim Bueler recently received some unusual advice: His principal and a campus police officer suggested that he stay home from his California high school for a few days.

They feared for his safety because Tim, the founder of Rancho Cotate High School's new Conservative Club, said he had received threats from other students after writing an article for the club newsletter calling for a crackdown on illegal immigration.


It seems that one of an "educator's" jobs is to educate their students on the values of free speech, academic freedom and the open exchange of ideas. Sadly the "educators" in this instance are engaging in the same ignorant behavior as the ignorant students.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-105705-1963r.htm ..full article



It seems that one of an "educator's" jobs is to educate their students on the values of free speech, academic freedom and the open exchange of ideas. Sadly the "educators" in this instance are engaging in the same ignorant behavior as the ignorant students.

While Tim's views appear to be rather ignorant, I am quite shocked to hear how the school is refusing to protect him or follow up on the threats. Bring a nail clipper to school and get kicked out, threaten a student and get ignored, is that the new policy?

[Evolver]

Maybe he is getting a lesson in real life free speech. Like what happens if you write a book and go to the press telling them you boss doesn't pay attention, and his meetings are like the blind leading the deaf.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Grammatron


While Tim's views appear to be rather ignorant...

I agree, but what I find disturbing is the fact that ALL parties involved are behaving ignorant, the teachers, the other students and the student in question. The teachers' behavior is especially appalling.

[Tricky]

Take a look around that paper, Tony. See if you find any left-leaning editorials. Now see if this story is corroborated by anyone else. Does it name the teacher who "wouldn't protect him" or any of the others who accosted him? Nope. Too much chance of a lawsuit. The only time names are mentioned are when you get actual quotes like:

Mr. Alton said he was also disturbed by Tim's article on illegal immigration, which says, "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America."
"No one at the high school opposes the formation of the Conservative Club," Mr. Alton said. "What bothers me is the extreme views that border on racism or homophobia, the negative tone, and the hot line that calls teachers 'traitors.' "
and
Club adviser Bernadette Tucker stepped down after Tim printed the newsletter without allowing her to edit it first.
The rest is just heresay, the output from a telephone interview.

This thread reminds me of the poor persecuted Christians (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33300) thread over in the religion forum. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tony


I agree, but what I find disturbing is the fact that ALL parties involved are behaving ignorant, the teachers, the other students and the student in question. The teachers' behavior is especially appalling.

Indeed. They're not winning any points by threatening physical violence and having the Teacher call the kid a Nazi.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-105705-1963r.htm ..full article



It seems that one of an "educator's" jobs is to educate their students on the values of free speech, academic freedom and the open exchange of ideas. Sadly the "educators" in this instance are engaging in the same ignorant behavior as the ignorant students.

Wrong again Tony!

If you would care to actually read the article you will see that:


...

Forty school staff members signed a letter to the Santa Rosa Press Democrat calling on the Conservative Club to back up its accusations that students are being indoctrinated.
"They've made all these sweeping statements about liberal teachers warping the curriculum, but as a science teacher, I'd like to see some evidence," said Mr. Alton, who co-authored the letter.
Mr. Alton said he was also disturbed by Tim's article on illegal immigration, which says, "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America."
"No one at the high school opposes the formation of the Conservative Club," Mr. Alton said. "What bothers me is the extreme views that border on racism or homophobia, the negative tone, and the hot line that calls teachers 'traitors.' "
Tim admitted that his zeal sometimes gets the best of him. He apologized for the "Muhammad" remark, saying, "I made a mistake, but I'm not racist." Club adviser Bernadette Tucker stepped down after Tim printed the newsletter without allowing her to edit it first.

...


So, apparently there is some rather inflammatory stuff in that newsletter, therefore one should not be surprised at the adverse reaction that has occurred.

Given the circumstances, I think that is rather good advice: have the student stay away from school for a few days, allow some time for tempers to cool, and have the student re-write his newsletter so that it shows the facts of the matter as opposed to being a school-sponsored hate group.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Wrong again Tony!

If you would care to actually read the article you will see that:



I read the article c*** sucker, you offered no new information that I already havent read.


Thanks Tricky for the well reasoned post, you make a good point you bastard. ;)

[Zero]

So, conservative kids are going the Rush Limbaugh route of slander towards teachers and racism. This is a real world education for them, in that they learn that only radical AM radio hosts get away with being lying bigots.:D

[Tony]

Originally posted by Zero
So, conservative kids are going the Rush Limbaugh route of slander towards teachers and racism. This is a real world education for them, in that they learn that only radical AM radio hosts get away with being lying bigots.:D

Nope, Jesse Jackson and his gaggle of lying bigots enjoy much more mainstream support than Rush Rimjob. The lesson of this story is that its ok to be a lying bigot if you're a lefty, but not a righty.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony



I read the article c*** sucker, you offered no new information that I already havent read.


Thanks Tricky for the well reasoned post, you make a good point you bastard. ;)

Well Tony, I see that your intelligence quotient is as high as ever.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Well Tony, I see that your intelligence quotient is as high as ever.

You're just upset because you have nothing of relevance to contribute.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Tony


Nope, Jesse Jackson and his gaggle of lying bigots enjoy much more mainstream support than Rush Rimjob. The lesson of this story is that its ok to be a lying bigot if you're a lefty, but not a righty. Uh huh...pull the other leg, ok?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Tony


Nope, Jesse Jackson and his gaggle of lying bigots enjoy much more mainstream support than Rush Rimjob. The lesson of this story is that its ok to be a lying bigot if you're a lefty, but not a righty. So you admit that conservatives(or at least the conservative students you are defending) are lying bigots...thanks. I should put that in my signature.:p

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony



I read the article c*** sucker, you offered no new information that I already havent read.


Thanks Tricky for the well reasoned post, you make a good point you bastard. ;) <table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#333333 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#333333><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>edited by Upchurch:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=2>This post has been reported for language. I have edited it and the post that quoted it. Technically, it is a gray area, but I think it is pretty apparent that no one is referring to poultry here.[/i]</font></td></tr></table>

[Grammatron]

What is a good question to ask is which Teacher green-lit the article.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Zero
So you admit that conservatives(or at least the conservative students you are defending) are lying bigots...thanks. I should put that in my signature.:p


Go ahead and make a fool out of yourself, Im not a conservative and Im not defending this kid.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
Im not a conservative and Im not defending this kid.
That's right. Tony's a liberal, based on the "true meaning" of liberal.:p

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

That's right. Tony's a liberal, based on the "true meaning" of liberal.:p

Yep, liberal, as in anti-authoritarian and pro-individual liberty. Not like the pseudo-libs that run rampant today.

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony


Yep, liberal, as in anti-authoritarian and pro-individual liberty. Not like the pseudo-libs that run rampant today.

You know, I'll give you credit for having things half-right, Tony. Note the lack of smileys.

[Cain]

Can we please learn to stop oppressing the conservatives. The same ones who, you know, rarely take the initiative to criticize genuine oppression that is immeasurably worse. With considerable pressure they might finally acknowledge that "Sure, what we did to black people wasn't right," only to add, "But can they stop complaining? That was like thousands of years ago."

The most outraged group on campus should be Tim's fellow conservatives. Let's hope they do not "hound" him for expressing his views, however. If you say something racist, you're going to get beaten up for being a racist, even if that happens to be a conservative view.



I have a much, much better personal story that never made it into any leftwing rag. I never stood for the pledge of allegiance, although my teacher one year bothered me every day to do so. Every day. Then two of those *sshole military recruiters came to school to con directionless students into joining the armed forces. Well, one of them comes into our room, takes me into a darkened closet, and begins basically interrogating me for forty-five minutes.

The following year eight students, including myself, again refused to recite the silly pledge. Initial threats cowed four of them. Of the stubborn four remaining, two received phone calls to their parents. All of us were harrassed to get us to leave, and eventually two did. Since this was the only AP economics class offered at the time, and since they needed economics to graduate, and since this was the last semester of their senior year, they had to enroll in a regular course. They filled up the last two vacancies. She would've loved to push everyone out, I'm sure. The two of us who continued to refuse standing agreed to just come to class late after the silly pledge was over and done with. The forced segragation was a minor step toward progress considering the number of students she had intimidated throughout the semester (at least a dozen). We told the administration it was unconstitutional, and they would "look into it" and "talk to her." Of course they didn't. We told the teacher it was unconstitutional, and she couldn't care less. Thankfully all of this took place before 9/11.

It was also known that various meatheads picked on people who did not share their own idiotic, jingoistic views (although this never happened to me personally).

[Tony]

Originally posted by jj


You know, I'll give you credit for having things half-right, Tony. Note the lack of smileys.

I’ve also noted the complete lack of intelligence, coherence and not to mention, an argument. Such is what I've come to expect from you.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Cain


I have a much, much better personal story that never made it into any leftwing rag. I never stood for the pledge of allegiance, although my teacher one year bothered me every day to do so. Every day. Then two of those *sshole military recruiters came to school to con directionless students into joining the armed forces. Well, one of them comes into our room, takes me into a darkened closet, and begins basically interrogating me for forty-five minutes.

The following year eight students, including myself, again refused to recite the silly pledge. Initial threats cowed four of them. Of the stubborn four remaining, two received phone calls to their parents. All of us were harrassed to get us to leave, and eventually two did. Since this was the only AP economics class offered at the time, and since they needed economics to graduate, and since this was the last semester of their senior year, they had to enroll in a regular course. They filled up the last two vacancies. She would've loved to push everyone out, I'm sure. The two of us who continued to refuse standing agreed to just come to class late after the silly pledge was over and done with. The forced segragation was a minor step toward progress considering the number of students she had intimidated throughout the semester (at least a dozen). We told the administration it was unconstitutional, and they would "look into it" and "talk to her." Of course they didn't. We told the teacher it was unconstitutional, and she couldn't care less. Thankfully all of this took place before 9/11.

It was also known that various meatheads picked on people who did not share their own idiotic, jingoistic views (although this never happened to me personally).


I assume you're talking about high school. How conservative/"liberal" was your school district? We NEVER said the pledge in high school, it just wasnt part of the day. In fact, the last time I remember saying the pledge (to both the US and Texas flag) was in elementary school, maybe 6th grade.

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony


I’ve also noted the complete lack of intelligence, coherence and not to mention, an argument. Such is what I've come to expect from you.

Why thank you, coming from you, that's a compliment.

Now, how about speaking on how the CONSERVATIVE half would have our rights fare, please.

edited to add:

I hope you're happy. It just occurred to me that you agree 100% with Cain on this issue.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Cain
Can we please learn to stop oppressing the conservatives. The same ones who, you know, rarely take the initiative to criticize genuine oppression that is immeasurably worse. With considerable pressure they might finally acknowledge that "Sure, what we did to black people wasn't right," only to add, "But can they stop complaining? That was like thousands of years ago."

The most outraged group on campus should be Tim's fellow conservatives. Let's hope they do not "hound" him for expressing his views, however. If you say something racist, you're going to get beaten up for being a racist, even if that happens to be a conservative view.



I have a much, much better personal story that never made it into any leftwing rag. I never stood for the pledge of allegiance, although my teacher one year bothered me every day to do so. Every day. Then two of those *sshole military recruiters came to school to con directionless students into joining the armed forces. Well, one of them comes into our room, takes me into a darkened closet, and begins basically interrogating me for forty-five minutes.

The following year eight students, including myself, again refused to recite the silly pledge. Initial threats cowed four of them. Of the stubborn four remaining, two received phone calls to their parents. All of us were harrassed to get us to leave, and eventually two did. Since this was the only AP economics class offered at the time, and since they needed economics to graduate, and since this was the last semester of their senior year, they had to enroll in a regular course. They filled up the last two vacancies. She would've loved to push everyone out, I'm sure. The two of us who continued to refuse standing agreed to just come to class late after the silly pledge was over and done with. The forced segragation was a minor step toward progress considering the number of students she had intimidated throughout the semester (at least a dozen). We told the administration it was unconstitutional, and they would "look into it" and "talk to her." Of course they didn't. We told the teacher it was unconstitutional, and she couldn't care less. Thankfully all of this took place before 9/11.

It was also known that various meatheads picked on people who did not share their own idiotic, jingoistic views (although this never happened to me personally).

Which if you read Tony's post would note was his point. Teacher's taking sides they shouldn't be and forcing students to change their believes. I think both instances -- the one in the article and the personal experience you just provided -- show faculty being in the wrong and that is the problem.

[jj]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Which if you read Tony's post would note was his point. Teacher's taking sides they shouldn't be and forcing students to change their believes. I think both instances -- the one in the article and the personal experience you just provided -- show faculty being in the wrong and that is the problem. ]

If you say "just about everyone involved is wrong", I think we'd be in agreement. I didnt' say "everyone" but only because there's probably something we don't know here.

Disagree? YES! Threaten violence? No.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by jj


If you say "just about everyone involved is wrong", I think we'd be in agreement. I didnt' say "everyone" but only because there's probably something we don't know here.

Disagree? YES! Threaten violence? No.

Yes, "just about everyone involved is wrong" is a good assessment of that situation. However, I expect more from teachers if indeed the story is as was portrayed in the article.

[Tony]

Originally posted by jj


Why thank you, coming from you, that's a compliment.


Not likely. This is just personal reassurance disguised as an insult. Being an intelligent person, you should know that.

Now, how about speaking on how the CONSERVATIVE half would have our rights fare, please.

Why should I? I made no comment concerning such a thing.

[TillEulenspiegel]

I'm sorry but I must agree ( in sentiment ) to the rather right leaning people here. The fact that the student expressed a view that was against the PC grain and was censured is anathema to the freedom of expression we all SHOULD enjoy as Americans. This is evocative of the student being suspended ( expelled?) for shouting " Shut up you water buffalo " to some black girls on campus or the Issue of a campus newspaper where all copies were stolon by people who were offended by what was said.

Both examples of PC gone terribly awry. The difference here is that the student was in High School, which has more restrictions on speech ,not collage which is supposedly informationaly transparent ( hehe right ? ) but if such behavior is indicative of the slant of "modern education" I hold slight hope for the people that are being turned out. The main goal of higher education is to be exposed to a plethora of differing ideas as to engender synthesis through critical thought that shape ones view of the world.

[Cain]

Which if you read Tony's post would note was his point. Teacher's taking sides they shouldn't be and forcing students to change their believes. I think both instances -- the one in the article and the personal experience you just provided -- show faculty being in the wrong and that is the problem.

No, it's not quite the same. It is not unreasonable to assume that many of the other conservatives are hostile to illegal immigration. They may have even expressed these views, but did so minus the incendiary language. Not that I mind incendiary language. Is he being threatened for holding conservative views or for expressing harmless conservative views in a racist way?

Of course I don't think Tim should be punished for expressing his view point. But I also don't think he's being punished for expressing a conservative point of view.

[jj]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Yes, "just about everyone involved is wrong" is a good assessment of that situation. However, I expect more from teachers if indeed the story is as was portrayed in the article.

Well, they're supposed to lead, but not a stampede. :(

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony
Why should I? I made no comment concerning such a thing.

What I'd like to know, if you care to discuss it, is how either "side" gives a half a fig for civil rights...

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Cain


No, it's not quite the same. It is not unreasonable to assume that many of the other conservatives are hostile to illegal immigration. They may have even expressed these views, but did so minus the incendiary language. Not that I mind incendiary language. Is he being threatened for holding conservative views or for expressing harmless conservative views in a racist way?

Of course I don't think Tim should be punished for expressing his view point. But I also don't think he's being punished for expressing a conservative point of view.

I don't know your view on apologies, but Tim did apologize for the incendiary language, although I don't know how sincere he was.

I don't think he's being punished per se, what's happening is the school is telling him that if he's going to continue on expressing that view point the school will not protect him. This is a perfect opportunity for a healthy debate on the issue; censoring or ignoring the issue will just make it worse, IMO.

[Tony]

Originally posted by jj


What I'd like to know, if you care to discuss it, is how either "side" gives a half a fig for civil rights...

To give you a short answer (I'm about to leave work), neither “side" wholly supports civil or individual rights, just the rights that conform to their morality, and prejudices.

A small example would be how the "liberals" claim to oppose discrimination and racism, yet support affirmative action.

Or..

How the conservatives support individual rights like the right to own a gun, but oppose gay marriage.

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony


To give you a short answer (I'm about to leave work), neither “side" wholly supports civil or individual rights, just the rights that conform to their morality, and prejudices.


Ok, so each gives roughly half a fig. I can accept that :)

[Skeptic]

Another possiblity is that the school is afraid of lawsuits in case the student IS in fact hurt by those who threathen him. I can see his mother on the witness stand now: "They KNEW he was threathened, but they STILL let him come to school to be attacked..."

[hammegk]

Interesting thread in a way.

If I say "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." is that racist?

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by hammegk
Interesting thread in a way.

If I say "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." is that racist?

I don't think so Ham ( altho I find it a rather pinched anal view ) , but many who look for the least slight real or imagined might. I personally think any view has the right to be stated , wether sexist, racist, intolerant...

That does not mean I subscribe to the same outlook but rather I acknowledge a vast spectrum of views. The reality is that all believe in freedom of speech right up to the point that it diverges or challenges thier beliefs.

Again the student in question involved is in High School which has a rather more restricted version of freedoms we enjoy in general.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by hammegk
Interesting thread in a way.

If I say "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." is that racist?
No, its just a niggling putdown because those names are not (yet)in common usage as racist putdowns... If you don't want to say "every spic" you may say "every jose" its simply a way of putting people down but still staying within some accepted boundries... Do all you Elvises understand now? ;)

[pupdog]

How about if I'm a famous liberal and I make a reference to HymieTown?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by pupdog
How about if I'm a famous liberal and I make a reference to HymieTown?

I await the responses on this one.

But back to "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America."; what parts should be asterisked to make it suitable for posting on JREF? It appears that at least one high school admin group would take exception to it -- gosh, would they ban JREF now, I wonder? Thank ed we will receive the wisdom of Hal etal.(Someone will surely report this non-pc uglyness won't they?)

BTW, Fool, what do you make of the word "Jamul"? Can we say "African" instead? Or "black"? Or "sub-saharan native"?

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by The Fool

No, its just a niggling putdown because those names are not (yet)in common usage as racist putdowns... If you don't want to say "every spic" you may say "every jose" its simply a way of putting people down but still staying within some accepted boundries... Do all you Elvises understand now? ;)

I see. So if someone USES racial slurs when he makes statements you don't like, he's a racist. But if someone DOES NOT use racial slurs when he makes statements you don't like, he is cunningly "hiding his racism within socially acceptable boundaries".

Heads "the Fool" wins, tails "the racist" loses...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic


I see. So if someone USES racial slurs when he makes statements you don't like, he's a racist. But if someone DOES NOT use racial slurs when he makes statements you don't like, he is cunningly "hiding his racism within socially acceptable boundaries".

Heads "the Fool" wins, tails "the racist" loses...
Obviously all the elvises don't understand
seeing things that are not there again doofus??
Get this quite clear son. If someone user racial slurs I conclude they are a racist, If they don't make racial slurs I don't conclude they are a racist....

Where did you get "hiding his racism within socially acceptable boundaries" from? certainly not my post. I specifically said I felt the example was not racist, it was just a niggling putdown, being a jerk and paddling around the edges, inflamitory but not racist. Honesly, do you read stuff before you comment on it?

I'm quite careful when it comes to making serious accusations like racist. If I call someone a racist it has to be from clear and repeated statements....like yours.

I'm sorry to keep rubbing your nose in it "Skeptic" You can get all upset follow me around and make comments on your own straw versions of my posts if you like...Its fun to watch.

Ok, you can go now. (patronising putdown...get the Idea yet Elvis?)
:D

[Tricky]

Originally posted by The Fool
Ok, you can go now. (patronising putdown...get the Idea yet Elvis?)

Don't try to hide your racism. We all know what you are really saying behind you carefully crafted facade of respectability. You are telling him, "You ain't nothing but a hound dog."

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Upchurch
<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=4 bgcolor=#333333 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=#333333><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#ffffff size=1>edited by Upchurch:</font></td></tr><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=black size=2>This post has been reported for language. I have edited it and the post that quoted it. Technically, it is a gray area, but I think it is pretty apparent that no one is referring to poultry here.[/i]</font></td></tr></table>

Thanks Upchurch!

At least Tony will not be accusing me of changing his posts again.

[CapelDodger]

from The Fool:
No, its just a niggling putdown because those names are not (yet)in common usage as racist putdowns... If you don't want to say "every spic" you may say "every jose" its simply a way of putting people down but still staying within some accepted boundries... Do all you Elvises understand now?
It's a put-down based on someone's ethnicity but it's not racist? Talk about PC: it's not the intent that matters, it's whether the word is on an approved disapproval list.

[crackmonkey]

The high school in question is just a couple of miles away from my home, so perhaps I have a perspective on the conflict that others wouldn't...
Apparently, much of the opposition to the Conservative Club is coming from the Hispanic Mecha chapter at the High School.
For those unaware of Mecha, it is essentially a Hispanic Supremacist organization which has called for the return of California to Mexico, among other radical notions. The local police had to be called to Rancho Cotate High last week because a number of Mecha members were gathering outside the Conservative Club meeting room, ready to rumble.
While the Conservative Club has been deliberately provocative, that's no excuse to condone violence.
The police are investigating.

[Tony]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
The high school in question is just a couple of miles away from my home, so perhaps I have a perspective on the conflict that others wouldn't...
Apparently, much of the opposition to the Conservative Club is coming from the Hispanic Mecha chapter at the High School.
For those unaware of Mecha, it is essentially a Hispanic Supremacist organization which has called for the return of California to Mexico, among other radical notions. The local police had to be called to Rancho Cotate High last week because a number of Mecha members were gathering outside the Conservative Club meeting room, ready to rumble.
While the Conservative Club has been deliberately provocative, that's no excuse to condone violence.
The police are investigating.

And have these mexican nazis been condemned for the racists they are? How do you think the school and local government would react if a KKK group started operating out of the school?

[crackmonkey]

No, and good point.

[Tmy]

Bullshiznit!

I just did a google search on "Mecha". The pages were hardly that of suprememsist organization. Its like calling the Young Republicans a nazi group.

While they may have nazis in their group that does not make them a nazi group.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Bullshiznit!

I just did a google search on "Mecha". The pages were hardly that of suprememsist organization. Its like calling the Young Republicans a nazi group.


You looked in the wrong place. This whole issue was hashed out when the Cruz Bustemonte stuff was going on. You also might want to look up Aztlan, an ideological partner of Mecha.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
For those unaware of Mecha, it is essentially a Hispanic Supremacist organization which has called for the return of California to Mexico, among other radical notions. .

Where shoudl I be looking when i get a blacket slanderous description of the group.?

Whats next? NOW is a group of Amazon women who want all men killed?

[crackmonkey]

Mecha was founded as a Hispanic supremacist organization. 'El Plan de Aztlan' - the idea that California should be returned to Mexico - was one of its founding documents. Lately the group has gained a higher profile and some have disavowed its earlier revolutionary rhetoric, but many members still cling to their racist beliefs. I believe Stanford has had some problems with this organization...

[CapelDodger]

from Tony:
You also might want to look up Aztlan, an ideological partner of Mecha.
Why look them up unless they have something different to say? In which case, what makes them ideological partners? Just asking: I can't be bothered to look either of them up. The US is a representative democracy, so when California votes to rejoin Mexico that's when it'll happen, and not before.

[jj]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from Tony:

Why look them up unless they have something different to say? In which case, what makes them ideological partners? Just asking: I can't be bothered to look either of them up. The US is a representative democracy, so when California votes to rejoin Mexico that's when it'll happen, and not before.

Err, ever hear about the "War of the Succession"?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
The high school in question is just a couple of miles away from my home, so perhaps I have a perspective on the conflict that others wouldn't...
Apparently, much of the opposition to the Conservative Club is coming from the Hispanic Mecha chapter at the High School.
For those unaware of Mecha, it is essentially a Hispanic Supremacist organization which has called for the return of California to Mexico, among other radical notions. The local police had to be called to Rancho Cotate High last week because a number of Mecha members were gathering outside the Conservative Club meeting room, ready to rumble.
While the Conservative Club has been deliberately provocative, that's no excuse to condone violence.
The police are investigating.
If what you are saying is accurate, then I certainly have no use for Mecha. I dislike all hateful organizations. However, I must ask if the local Mecha chapter is an officially sanctioned group a the the high school? Do they print a hateful newsletter? Are they using school resources to preach hatred?

These are the things the conservative club (actually, just one member of the club) was sanctioned for. If Mecha is guilty of all these infractions of school policy, then they too should be reprimanded. If not, then the comparison is not a good one. A student can be as hate-filled as he/she likes, but unless they use official channels to disseminate their hate, then the school can do nothing.

I'd have to say, though, that if a student were aware of Mecha and still preached anti-Hispanic hate, then that student is begging to be a martyr. The fact that the student agreed to a phone interview to further exacerbate these problems seems to confirm this.

Had the "young conservative" been reaching out to find common ground, I might have some sympathy. If he was just meeting hatred with hatred, I can only say he reaps what he sows.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from The Fool:

It's a put-down based on someone's ethnicity but it's not racist? Talk about PC: it's not the intent that matters, it's whether the word is on an approved disapproval list.

Its hard for me to judge the persons intent without relying an awful lot on my "feelings". Despite the squealings from many posters here I am quite conservative about making the claim of racism..... Its a niggling putdown. Like calling Irish paddies, or Australians Yobos.... It is very much a grey area, In australia the Pakistani Cricket team are commonly called the "Pakis" even on naional TV sports coverage...In Britain the term paki is commonly reagarded as a racist put-down.....

The tone of the rest of the writing most certainly smells o racism to me.....but Hammy asked about the use of those words specifically....so specifically and in isolation is how I evaluated them. Racist is a serious accusation, I don't make it lightly.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by hammegk
Interesting thread in a way.

If I say "Liberals welcome every Muhammad, Jamul and Jose who wishes to leave his Third World state and come to America." is that racist?

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..." :D

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Mecha was founded as a Hispanic supremacist organization. 'El Plan de Aztlan' - the idea that California should be returned to Mexico - was one of its founding documents. Lately the group has gained a higher profile and some have disavowed its earlier revolutionary rhetoric, but many members still cling to their racist beliefs. I believe Stanford has had some problems with this organization...

Would you mind trotting over there and delivering the news that California already has been returned to Mexico? English is a second language here :D

[crackmonkey]

I do believe that Mecha is an officially sanctioned body, but I have no idea about any newsletters or specificaly what, if any, 'hate speech' they engage in. Other than threats towards the Conservative Club members, of course...
I'm not aware of any 'hate' being expressed by the C.C. - I understand that an unequivocal support of existing immigration laws was expressed. It's an odd state of affairs when agreement with existing law is branded 'hate'...
I do agree that the student in question was being provocative. Opposition to his views isn't unexpected, but indifferent shrugs and 'you get what's coming to you' when he's threatened is wrong.
The last episode arose from a meeting between the group and its detractors - an attempt to smooth ruffled feathers. The teachers present at the meeting said they thought it was very productive. The Hispanic students who gathered outside waiting for the COnservatives to emerge apparently weren't so enthused.