What do women want?

[Thunder]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Do they want to just get laid?

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Help me Ronda!!!!!

:D

[Roadtoad]

My wife respects honesty. Start there.

[Matthew Best]

Why would you assume they all want the same thing? You would be better off trying to figure out what one individual woman wants. One way would be to ask her.

[Thunder]

Why would you assume they all want the same thing? You would be better off trying to figure out what one individual woman wants. One way would be to ask her.


hmmm...thats a damn good question to ask a woman.

though, i hate meeting women in bars. they are almost always crowded, and the whole idea of using alchohol to meet a strange woman in a bar, always seemed kinda scuzzy to me.

[Cavemonster]

It's better than trying to meet strange women lying in ponds lobbing scimitars ;)

[NewtonTrino]

I think a more important question is what do YOU want? Once you figure that out (and if it includes a woman) then you can go about looking for someone who has a compatible want.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why would you assume they all want the same thing? You would be better off trying to figure out what one individual woman wants. One way would be to ask her.

I think you have identified part of Parky's problem. There is nothing (much) identifiable for women as a class. You are better off starting with thinking of these curious creatures as individuals.

[Thunder]

I think you have identified part of Parky's problem. There is nothing (much) identifiable for women as a class. You are better off starting with thinking of these curious creatures as individuals.

i think I meant "in general". but then I'd be generalizing....huh?

hmm...

[Cain]

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Depends.

Do they want to just get laid?

Depends.

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Depends.

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Depends

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Confidence.

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Depends.

There's a difference between what women say they want and what they really do want. Revealed preferences mean a helluva a lot more than whatever a girl claims.

[Piggy]

i hate meeting women in bars. they are almost always crowded

I hear ya. Crowded women are the worst.

[senorpogo]

What a literal crowd. A guy tries to start a general conversation about women and he gets lectured. Do people really think that Parky believes all women want the same thing?

I'd say most women ultimately want to get married. That said, I think most people in the western world have that as their dating goal. The real trick of course is figuring out what the specific girl you're talking to is currently interested in. A woman you meet in church or at work is probably less interested in a casual hook-up than one at a dance club on Saturday night. What's her age? What's her life plan? Income level? Family situation? Once you get these pieces, you can start putting the puzzle together.

[gnome]

There's a difference between what women say they want and what they really do want. Revealed preferences mean a helluva a lot more than whatever a girl claims.

Oh, yes. Actions speak a lot louder than words of course. One of the hardest lessons I had to learn was not to hang on each word said and get upset if it didn't work out that way. It will drive you crazy and make her feel she's walking on eggshells when she talks. Cut her some slack and save yourself some aggravation.

[Piggy]

In all seriousness, I'd start with...

Honesty

Confidence

Respect (which includes listening)

Kindness

Good grooming and some semblance of knowing how to dress

A sense of humor

A good balance of attention and breathing room

Good health (nice muscle tone doesn't hurt)

Height (altho there's not much you can do about how tall you are)

A steady and sufficient income

Occasional gifts that show some thought

Not embarrassing her or yourself in front of her friends

Maturity

Attentive kisses (and attentive sex, when it comes to that)

A clear sense that you're not clingy or dependent


Of course, to figure out what all that means in terms of specifics, you have to know something about the woman you're courting.

You'll never get it down to a forumula that you can simply apply, because women are hard-wired to thwart that sort of thing. They want to know that you are paying attention to them, individually, and over time learning what they want and don't want, what they like and don't like, and adapting when they change.

Then there's the x-factor, stuff like do you smell right, and do y'all laugh at the same things, which is beyond your control (you can't successfully fake either).

Bottom line: Be the best man you can be, and let the woman call the shots for what she wants (which she's not about to tell you up front, so you have to learn), and be honest (including about when it's not working).

[kuroyume0161]

If I knew that, I probably wouldn't be gay. :D

[Earthborn]

A guy tries to start a general conversation about women and he gets lectured.Anyone who starts a "general conversation" about half the world's population deserves to be lectured.

[TraneWreck]

Ignore everyone else, they're full of ****.

Just get a few bottles of Axe spray, a thick leather watch band, a chain that attaches your wallet to your belt, and spike your hair.

Then wear really tight tee-shirts and lurk at the edge of a night club dance floor. It will work better if you have a friend dressed exactly like you. Then you can switch between glaring intensely at the women dancing and high fiving and hugging your buddy.

Works every time.

[wunky]

So that leads to the question- what do you want??????
As noted above it will help you narrow down the answers to the questions you listed.

[aggle-rithm]

If you're 33 and still single, I'd say what women want is someone less picky than you.

[Piggy]

If you're 33 and still single, I'd say what women want is someone less picky than you.

Ouch!

[Earthborn]

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?Most women probably want both, but rolled up into the same person.

Do they want to just get laid?Some of them do, but don't count on it.

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?The women who might be interested in you, probably the latter.

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?Most probably want face to face contact every day.

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?A well-balanced personality requires both.

Do they care about looks...or personality?Yes.

though, i hate meeting women in bars.Then don't meet them there. In fact, avoid women who frequent bars if the idea of dating while intoxicated puts you off.

[FledgelingSkeptic]

Women are individual. What makes one happy makes the next miserable, as you've no doubt seen. You need to take each woman you meet on a case-by-case basis. Find out from her what she likes and doesn't like. Guessing will only get you in trouble.

Start by finding common interests. That way there's something to talk about. And you can always fall back on "Hi, my name is Parky. You strike me as a fascinating woman. Can I buy you a drink/cup of coffee?'.

When that line works, move on to "Tell me about yourself", and let her do the talking. Women like a man who can listen.

[Loss Leader]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.


I believe it was the great Daniel Stern on an episode of Wonder Years who realized at the end of one episode that women don't know what they want any more than men do.

[Jessica Blue]

We want a glorious man with sunbeams shooting from his arse to come riding up on a fancily dressed white horse and carry us away to a land of wonder and enchantment....

Oh no wait, that's just me...

[Ron_Tomkins]

Looks like you wanna be visiting Travis (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=166665)' thread, buddy.

[Thunder]

Women like a man who can listen.

im sorry....what was that?

;)

[senorpogo]

Anyone who starts a "general conversation" about half the world's population deserves to be lectured.

See, I don't think he was talking about half the world's population.

By "women", I assumed he meant single women from about 20ish-40. I'm also guessing he's talking about women living in the western world, probably in North America, Australia, or Europe. So a much smaller population -maybe close to a 100 million people. What type of trends exist in that population?

Regardless, my point is that the discussion was started in good faith without intent to suggest that "women" are some mindless collective. People need to relax and get to the fun dating advice, aka pretending like we know what we're talking about.

[Chris H]

http://www.experiencechocolate.com/images/index_chocolate.gif

[saraban]

http://www.experiencechocolate.com/images/index_chocolate.gif
But made in to a dildo

[Policenaut]

Women are evil creatures. Best bet is to get a robot or a pillow.

[quadraginta]

What a literal crowd. A guy tries to start a general conversation about women and he gets lectured. Do people really think that Parky believes all women want the same thing?


A review of the content of many of Parky's other posts would not exclude this possibility. Stereotypes are not contraindicated.

I'd say most women ultimately want to get married. That said, I think most people in the western world have that as their dating goal. The real trick of course is figuring out what the specific girl you're talking to is currently interested in. A woman you meet in church or at work is probably less interested in a casual hook-up than one at a dance club on Saturday night. What's her age? What's her life plan? Income level? Family situation? Once you get these pieces, you can start putting the puzzle together.



He may not be the only one with this potential handicap.

[gnome]

Someone had to do it:

http://www.lolpix.com/_pics/Funny_Pictures_559/Funny_Pictures_5596.jpg

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Regardless, my point is that the discussion was started in good faith without intent to suggest that "women" are some mindless collective. People need to relax and get to the fun dating advice, aka pretending like we know what we're talking about.

My advice is that creating the impression that marriage is your goal will not necessarily enhance the average dating experience.

[saraban]

Women are evil creatures. Best bet is to get a robot or a pillow.
The pillow's already taken

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/816601-man-marries-pillow

[senorpogo]

A review of the content of many of Parky's other posts would not exclude this possibility. Stereotypes are not contraindicated.

He may not be the only one with this potential handicap.

So we're just supposed to say - everyone is unique! - and leave it at that? We're supposed to act like that's saying something, pat ourselves on the back, and go on with our day? Where's the fun in that? What's the freaking point?

Yes, it's hard to generalize the wants and desires of a few hundred million people, but if marketing companies can get away with then why not us?

[senorpogo]

My advice is that creating the impression that marriage is your goal will not necessarily enhance the average dating experience.

That is good advice indeed.

[quadraginta]

So we're just supposed to say - everyone is unique! - and leave it at that? We're supposed to act like that's saying something, pat ourselves on the back, and go on with our day? Where's the fun in that? What's the freaking point?

Yes, it's hard to generalize the wants and desires of a few hundred million people, but if marketing companies can get away with then why not us?


It's a lot more fun than saying everyone is the same. Usually more accurate, too.

YMMV.

[dasmiller]

Bear in mind that "what they want" is only tangentially related to "what works"

ETA - well, for some women, anyway

[senorpogo]

It's a lot more fun than saying everyone is the same. Usually more accurate, too.

YMMV.

Touche...

But since I can't speak directly about the women the original poster knows, I'm going to keep on with the generalities and stereotypes. And then you can keep on pointing out how wrong that is. Deal?

[Polaris]

We want a glorious man with sunbeams shooting from his arse to come riding up on a fancily dressed white horse and carry us away to a land of wonder and enchantment....

Oh no wait, that's just me...

It's not just you...

Seriously though parky, I'll paraphrase some advice I heard that goes like so: you know how you aren't self-conscious and comfortable in your own skin when you're talking to an old lady or any woman you're not attracted to at all? Extend that to women you are attracted to as well. This will take practice, so expect to be shot down hard more than a few times. Fear not - thick skin is a good thing.

But basically, to hell with what they want at this stage. That's the wrong tree you're barking up. Starting out trying to ingratiate yourself by doing what (you think) they want just makes you look desperate. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin, as I mentioned before, and that's the most important first step. You're over 25, so hopefully you're somewhat set in your ways and hold some firm opinions. That'll help.

Oh, and what everybody else who mentioned it said about confidence...that too. Without confidence, there's always Realdolls. It's a conundrum really. The more you worry about being attractive to women, the less attractive you are to them. Confidence means you don't worry about it.

On a final note, there's no such thing as "leagues".

[MontagK505]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Do they want to just get laid?

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Help me Ronda!!!!!

:D

Women want all of these things. It's just not all in the same woman.:):)

[MontagK505]

We want a glorious man with sunbeams shooting from his arse to come riding up on a fancily dressed white horse and carry us away to a land of wonder and enchantment....

Oh no wait, that's just me...

Shrek: "You were expecting prince charming?"
Fiona: "Well, yes actually!"

:)

[aviolet4u]

We want a glorious man with sunbeams shooting from his arse to come riding up on a fancily dressed white horse and carry us away to a land of wonder and enchantment....

Oh no wait, that's just me...

hey that's me too! I blame the movies :D

[Lolly]

Starting out trying to ingratiate yourself by doing what (you think) they want just makes you look desperate. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin, as I mentioned before, and that's the most important first step.....
.......
The more you worry about being attractive to women, the less attractive you are to them. Confidence means you don't worry about it.

I agree with Polaris. The best thing you can do to be attractive is to be comfortable with yourself.

Other things that have already been mentioned that I agree with are to:
-be honest
-ask, and listen (there are no generalizations, everyone's an individual)
-have a sense of humour. Being comfortable with yourself and being able to laugh at things makes other people comfortable being around you.

Something that I don't think has yet been mentioned is to have opinions and ideas. Don't always defer. I find it exhausting/irritating if someone always leaves it to me to decide where to go/eat/whatever. They think they are being nice by letting you do what you want to do, but I'd prefer a guy to come up with a suggestion or opinion as to what he'd like to do and agree on something together. I like a guy to have opinions about things. For a start, it gives you something to talk about. A guy with no opinions is really dull, to me. It really comes back to being comfortable with yourself and having confidence. Show who you are - a blank canvas isn't very interesting.

[John Jones]

"Women want toasted ice"- Arab proverb.

[senorpogo]

But basically, to hell with what they want at this stage. That's the wrong tree you're barking up. Starting out trying to ingratiate yourself by doing what (you think) they want just makes you look desperate. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin, as I mentioned before, and that's the most important first step. You're over 25, so hopefully you're somewhat set in your ways and hold some firm opinions. That'll help.

I think this is great advice. That's why the whole "do women like the nice guy or the bad boy" thing really doesn't matter. You're either one or the other (or somewhere in between on that imaginary spectrum), so just go with what you got. Faking something like that is bound to fail and will only end up making you look desperate. Plus, what's the point? You want her to like you for who you really are.

[Cain]

What do women want? Basically a guy with high social status, which can come in the form of fame, money, power ("Looks" can signal status.). Connected to this, they want a guy who can get lots of chicks.

Axe body spray? **** that. Women love nothing more than the smell of pussy. The ones who complain about dating a string of jerks and cheaters fail to realize that they like certain guys not in spite of their promiscuity, but because of it. In evolutionary psychology there's that whole "sexy sons" view. Think about your own past: when you're attached, women surely want you more. Do you think that's because you're more confident, more "yourself"? Maybe those are factors, but I'd guess it mostly has to do with the fact that another female has chosen you. I recall one study where women are shown photographs and the relationship status of men. The men who labeled "in a relationship" earn higher ratings because *sigh* all the good ones are taken.

I recall a thread from a year ago or so when nails3Jesus (I think she changed her name to skeptifeminist or something), but anywho, she complained that men who score a lot of women are termed "studs" and "pimps," and promiscuous women are sluts n' whores. Well, that's because the worst thing a guy can be is a loser. Any woman can have children and pass their genes on.

A lot of people fail to appreciate the insane variation among men and how we obsess over lots of different things. We have flatter bell curves. There are some guys who will have zero children and some guys who will have umpteen children.

If we had a free market in marriage, then it would be polygamous. Women would prefer -- contrary to romance novels and movies -- to be the third wife of a high-status, high-income alpha-male than the sole-mate of a lowly, deformed omega (regardless of niceness). Females fiercely compete for those top dogs. When they get older, when their looks begin to fade, they're forced into settling for someone else. Beware, she might resort to getting impregnated by the rockstar, and then having YOUR dumpy ass raise the child.

The nice guy stuff is also ****, by the way. Yes, women are attracted to guys who happen to be nice, but probably not BECAUSE they're nice. Women describe nice guys as creepy. Jerks are not intrinsically attractive, I should know. Where it gets tricky is that being a jerk can signal social status -- because jerks do annoying ****... and get away with it. Women who meet the super nice movie star know that he possesses the money, fame and power to be a jerk... but chooses otherwise. They're lying to themselves.

Lolly says:
Something that I don't think has yet been mentioned is to have opinions and ideas. Don't always defer. I find it exhausting/irritating if someone always leaves it to me to decide where to go/eat/whatever.

Women want guys who have options, and guys who have options can voice their own opinions without fear of losing the girl because they know they can get another girl. If he's paranoid about saying the wrong thing, if he's an over-accommodating push-over, then the woman figures "Hey, I can do better." Desperation is vagina cryptonite.

Here's another "double-standard" that drives me crazy. Men pursue hot, young tail whereas women, concerned with personality, will go out with an older man. So we see 60 year-old dudes with 20-something girlfriends, but almost never the opposite. Is that because men are insanely shallow whereas women screen for character? No. A sixty year-old dude can have babies; a sixty year-old woman cannot. Again, it's our mindless, amoral evolution.

Now before anyone begins copy-pasting from their favorites button links for granny****er.com, yes, I recognize there are quirks. Some guys may want to **** wrinkled up old women. Hell, some guys like *********** other guys. Big deal. Generally speaking, a gilf appears fertile enough to trick our programming.

I also want to contend that men are in some ways less shallow than women. Women seem more concerned about a guy's perceived market-value. However, it's always portrayed in popular culture as the woman finding the diamond in the rough. And if she does, you better believe she's gonna polish the **** outta that thing, for reasons not unlike flashing their engagement ring: to drive their friends crazy. Do guys care if other guys think a woman is "a real catch?"

Yes, I want a feminist to prove anything and everything above is unfounded. I think it's insane how much status we accord to twenty year-old know-nothing girls. If they're hot enough, men will COMPETE for the opportunity to BUY THEM DINNER. You're twenty years-old, you've never had to exercise a goddamn brain cell and people want the opportunity to spend money on you. We get far more nervous and intimidated when one of these numbers enters the room than some accomplished Ph.D.

In case the point's been lost: women want a man high in social status. This "sense of humor" stuff and "honesty" is total crap. Women will think you're funny if they already find you attractive. Just look around: they laugh at their boss' moronic jokes now; they laughed at their teachers' moronic jokes growing up.

[blobru]

As been said, seems to me, t'ain't so much what a woman wants, as what a woman needs.
I had to learn this lesson the hard way... from a gol-blasted woman.
(Dawgonnit if it weren't the dagnabbitest affair I was ever a part of!)
For posterity and my own peace of mind, rightly or wrongly, I have decided to write it all down just as it a-happened in a country song, the lyrics of which I'm a-here providin' freely of charge-ation, so's a-maybe you won't a-have to.

[ahem] "A Woman's Needs" [take 37] :balcony

You know that...

Sometimes a woman needs a lover
Not to treat her like his mother
Not just some huggy, kissy cuddler
Not to understand but stand under

Until a woman finds this lover
She feels a cast adrift landlubber
Crazed canoe wid'out a rudder
Holy cow who's lost her udder

Bowlin' ball right in da gutter
Butterfly wid'out da butter
False eyelashes dat don't flutter
An old golf bag wid'out no putter

She won't be happy wid' anudder
She's fallen down into da mud, err... (like)
Yosemite Sam or Elmer Fudd or
Daffy Duck, dat darn Bugs has really got her

I wrote my lady a love letter
Because she was under da weather
I hoped that she was feelin' better
I offered her my Irish Setter

I don't know why but this upset her
She roared and swore until she wet her
Stretch pants she always wore wit' sweaters
That her Aunt Esther had knit her

Like a loan shark to a debtor
Like a card sharp to a bettor
She cursed the day that I had met her
And the love bug that had bit her

My guess was maybe she was bitter
Where my dog, Love Bug, had bit her
And the parka that I'd bought her
Made her puff up like an otter (But she said...)

Sometimes a woman needs a lover
Not to treat her like his mother
Not just some huggy, kissy cuddler
Not to understand but stand under (So...)

To help her break free from her fetters
Pretend that she's the babysitter
A cheerleader wit' real big letters
An untamed frontier to your settler (Because...)

Sometimes a woman needs a lover
Et cetera...

(near as i can figger, anyhow) :con2:

[Bluto]

Well, if evolution has anything to say about, what women ultimately want is a mate that's either: a. Physically strong b. Wealthy or c. Both

So get yourself a weight machine and learn how to invest OR realize that the odds are that most relationships will turn out badly (often VERY badly) and content yourself with a life of solitude and occasional self-abuse. Hey, it CAN be worse, trust me...

[Cavemonster]

Yes, I want a feminist to prove anything and everything above is unfounded. I think it's insane how much status we accord to twenty year-old know-nothing girls. If they're hot enough, men will COMPETE for the opportunity to BUY THEM DINNER. You're twenty years-old, you've never had to exercise a goddamn brain cell and people want the opportunity to spend money on you. We get far more nervous and intimidated when one of these numbers enters the room than some accomplished Ph.D.


You can say we're driven by biology to a greater extent than we like to think, which is true, but I don't think it's true to an overwhelming degree.

We're also driven biologically to stuff as much fat and sugar and salt down our pie-holes as we can, but intelligent people manage to transcend that to some degree. If chimpanzee "gang wars" and our own history are any indication we're also very inclined to be xenophobic of "out" groups.

In a very broad sense you can say that most people still eat as much crap as they can, and view the world through racism and paranoia, but intelligent, interesting people tend to be those who rise above the most senseless primal urges. I don't want to date the whole world, pretty much just the subpool of people whose rational minds have some control over their lizardbrain level drives.

Hell, I've dated younger ladies, I dated a 19 year old when I was 27, and what I learned was that as pretty and fertile as they may be, it isn't worth the lack of life experience. Not that a 19-22 year old can't possibly have anything interesting to say, but the more I meet, the less likely it seems they'll have much.

I'm tired of the cynical view of human relationship. You may view it as special pleading when I say it doesn't apply to me, and the people I want to date, I'll say it's more like observable fact.

I'm a snob. I've stopped even thinking about women more than 3 years younger than me. I don't want to date someone without goals and experience and wisdom. Yeah there are some requirements from the little head too, but they are inarguably secondary.

[rjh01]

One option is to tell everyone you are looking for a wife. If anyone asks questions list the qualities you have (prepared beforehand).

Everyone includes people you work with; your clients, suppliers. Most important your friends. Maybe even women you have dated and are now married.

Also all advice on the subject is worthless. Ask parky76. He knows the answer, but refuses to tell you or do what is required to get what you want.

[Cain]

You can say we're driven by biology to a greater extent than we like to think, which is true, but I don't think it's true to an overwhelming degree.

We're also driven biologically to stuff as much fat and sugar and salt down our pie-holes as we can, but intelligent people manage to transcend that to some degree. If chimpanzee "gang wars" and our own history are any indication we're also very inclined to be xenophobic of "out" groups.

This is measured and well-taken. After all, I self-identify as a socilaist -feminist-atheist-pretentious-cosmopolitan vegan (but I repeat myself). However, certain impulses exist regardless of our awareness or self-control. People take paternalistic measures to prevent over-eating, on some level we may subconsciously make racist assumptions, and perhaps most pointedly, we often over-estimate our conscious autonomy.

I'm tired of the cynical view of human relationship. You may view it as special pleading when I say it doesn't apply to me, and the people I want to date, I'll say it's more like observable fact.

I'm a snob. I've stopped even thinking about women more than 3 years younger than me. I don't want to date someone without goals and experience and wisdom. Yeah there are some requirements from the little head too, but they are inarguably secondary.

I freely accept exceptions -- but then almost everyone claims special status. While this three year rule sounds hopelessly close-minded, and I would not be surprised to see it revised in the future, there are people who swear off intimacy altogether, reminding me of the saying that "of all the sexual aberrations, chastity is certainly the most peculiar." The problem is that the people least equipped to tame the beast inside the man are the ones breeding.

We may have had great, great, great uncles who helped people on the basis of need rather than tribe; men whose greatest pleasure came while sitting on a hilltop, staring into the heavens, pondering a life of meaning. And these guys are probably not as well-represented in our DNA as the great, great great grand-fathers who raped teenage girls.

[slingblade]

One thought about jobs. There is more to that than just "how much money do you make?"

A job can also show a woman such things as:

Having planned for the future;
A sense of responsibility and of maturity in general;
The fact that you own an operational work ethic;
Your independence;
and probably other things which reveal your general character, ethics, and morals.

Her job can say the same things about her, too. And these are things you're going to want to know about her.

Just a quick thought. :)

[Arg9]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Do they want to just get laid?

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Help me Ronda!!!!!

:D


Awwww, man – Parky, couldn't you ask an easier question? Maybe we should shift the topic to something easier like quantum physics...

Seriously, though - quantum physics is much easier to pin down.

[Roboramma]

My wife respects honesty. Start there.

You want him to start with your wife? :eye-poppi

[rjh01]

You want him to start with your wife? :eye-poppi

Well maybe not ROADTOAD's wife, but someone's wife. Talk to this woman about how to find a wife. Maybe she can give him some tips or has an unmarried sister or girlfriend that has a similar problem.

[aggle-rithm]

Ouch!

Sorry, meant to add this:

;)

[aggle-rithm]

Well maybe not ROADTOAD's wife, but someone's wife. Talk to this woman about how to find a wife. Maybe she can give him some tips or has an unmarried sister or girlfriend that has a similar problem.

Don't ask me. I've been married for 24 years and still have no idea how it happened.

[aggle-rithm]

Think about your own past: when you're attached, women surely want you more. Do you think that's because you're more confident, more "yourself"? Maybe those are factors, but I'd guess it mostly has to do with the fact that another female has chosen you.


I've only been attached once, but I've seen this phenomenon. When I got engaged all these skanks came out of the woodwork and wanted to date me. They had never given me a second look before that point.

I recall one study where women are shown photographs and the relationship status of men. The men who labeled "in a relationship" earn higher ratings because *sigh* all the good ones are taken.


So they've got it backwards? In fact, all the taken ones are good?

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Some good advice above - namely have your own opinions etc.

When I first started dating I'd always defer to my partner - tried to agree with their opinions, tried to like their music etc. The usual reason for them splitting up from me was that I was 'Too nice'.

When I first met my wife, I'd been away to University, had a bit more experience and was generally more confident (as well as being 3 years older than her - all previous girlfriends had been the same age as me). When I asked her later what she'd liked about me, she said it was the way I disagreed with her opinions, mocked her taste in certain musical artists (Billy Joel FFS!*) etc. Basically, as she put it, I had the balls to stand up to her. I wasn't even thinking about it consciously, it was just how I'd got used to interacting with people at Uni. I hadn't known at the time but she was dating another guy when she agreed to go out with me but was thinking of, and then subsequently did dump him for....'Being too nice!'.

*That was an aberration - she generally had half-tidy taste in music other than that....oh and a Michael Jackson album....but I persuaded the cat to scratch them both to pieces soon after we moved in together ;). Now it's prog / metal heaven.

[commandlinegamer]

Where's Ducky? I'm sure if he was here, he'd tell you.

[sgtbaker]

I would love to turn that hyper-generalizing question around and blanket all men with the same question; What do men want? I am afraid, however, that the answer will be unanimously answered with Megan Fox ;). That being said, you can ask that question till you are blue in the face but you will never get a solid answer because, contrary to what you might think, we all want different things. I can give you some advice; though. Why not, when you meet a woman, ask her straight out what she deems attractive in a man. If you find you fit the bill, never...NEVER under any circumstances say anything to the effect of "I'm the type of guy..." We make fun of you in our circles. 99.9% of the time, that statement is later proven to be false or a drastic overstatement. Speaking of overstatements, there are a few girls that still may be impressed with men who brag of their intimate super abilities but even in my limited dating experience (married at 19 and divorced last year), I've learned that usually, that is not true either. You gotta get by on who you are, something real. We may be just girls but we know manuer when we see it.

I can't answer the question in the OP for anyone else. I can barely answer that for myself. I don't have a list of things that must be present before I meet someone and give them a chance. All I can do is go through my past and find the common ground. All of them have made me laugh (including the current and hopefully permanent apple of my eye), it's not a prerequisit but I never fell for someone that I didn't find funny. I am not that bright but I find a pattern of the men I've fallen for have relatively high IQ's which I think tends to go hand in hand with sense of humor or at least the kind that I find funny. You can make a billion dollars a month, if I am not feeling it for you, I just can't stay. I am unimpressed with status or posessions. I am not blind, looks are helpful but generally, my eyes can appreciate your presence just based on how I feel when I am around you. The one strange pattern, the one I can't explain, beer belly/pot belly, call it what you want. It's not something I seek out but dang it, every significant relationship I've had, he had one. Even if it was small and he was skinny, it was still round right there and I love it. Thinking back, when all my friends were gaga for Bon Jovi or Brett Michaels, there I was, biting my lip when Brian Johnson dominated the screen. Good luck in your search. If it makes you feel better, I am 33 and for the first time, I am pretty sure I finally found it.

[cornsail]

According to the film "What Women Want" staring Mel Gibson, women want a guy who "lightens up on that aftershave". I've lived my life by it.

Also, I hear Shania Twain likes a guy with a lot of blankets.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

IMHO

Women want what men want, to be happy. Women want a mate who cares about their happiness. How to make her happy depends on the woman. But I think just about all women want a man who cares enough try and make her happy. Though not a man, I would expect they want the same thing.

Thus, for example: even though I work more hours, I make dinner when I come home, because I'm a much better cook, and it makes the hubby happy. The hubby in turn goes out on the town with wifey even though he's more of a home body.

It's all a matter of give and take. You have to make an effort to do things you wouldn't necessarily want to do because you know it makes the other person happy. And if you love them, then you don't mind, because ultimately making them happy makes YOU happy.

Though that frankly is more about how to keep a woman once you have her.

I would say what makes a man stand out in this day and age is manners and courtship. When we were dating, my hubby was always sending me flowers at work, sending me little love notes, was always courteous (i.e.pulling chair out for me at dinner, opening my car door for me), made a special effort to befriend MY friends. When he met my parents for the first time, he came to dinner at my parents hourse. The next day he sent my mother a thank you card and flowers for dinner. I think that was the day I knew I wanted to marry him.

[iknownothing]

Speaking only for myself, and only on this point:

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

I see couples where they want to call/text/be together constantly, so I guess some women want that. One thing my husband and I have appreciated about each other is the freedom to have time apart. Maybe age was a factor? We were both in our mid 30s and had plenty of our own habits & interests that we didn't necessarily share. Maybe if you are dating younger women, or women who have never been single for any appreciable period of time, they would want more constant contact?

I also want to contend that men are in some ways less shallow than women. Women seem more concerned about a guy's perceived market-value.

I think it's insane how much status we accord to twenty year-old know-nothing girls. If they're hot enough, men will COMPETE for the opportunity to BUY THEM DINNER. You're twenty years-old, you've never had to exercise a goddamn brain cell and people want the opportunity to spend money on you. We get far more nervous and intimidated when one of these numbers enters the room than some accomplished Ph.D.

Don't those 2 quotes seem a little contradictory?

And it seems that you're letting those hot 20-year-olds represent all women somehow. There's plenty of us mediocre-looking women who have never had men compete over us and thus never had the chance to develop that kind of completely shallow relationships.

[mumblethrax]

Instead of reading this thread, I'm going to wait for the movie.

[Fnord]

"Notes On Relations With Women (http://corry.ws/CorryBook-80.htm#pgfId-1000491)" -- by Charles E. Corry

Mr. Corry may have a somewhat cynical view on male-female relations, but any man that has been through one is likely to look at the page and say, "Yup" at least once.

Pay close attention to the lions.

[iknownothing]

On second thought, I think this is the better way to say what I think:

I think the women who are only after the rich and powerful men, and the men who are only after hot 20-year-olds, deserve each other.

For the rest of us there are some elements of truth in those ideas, but they aren't the whole story.

Yes men like attractive women -- but a lot of men can be content with a woman they find attractive, right? Like, I'm no Victoria's Secret model but my husband seems to see enough attractiveness in me to be happy.

And yes women like a man who has some earning power, but that's relative to each woman. And that can be partly just as a reflection of basic reality -- you want someone who can hold a steady job that will help you afford whatever lifestyle you aspire to. I have zero interest in a big house (just means more to clean), but I do want to feel comfortable that we're not one step away from sleeping in a cardboard box either. And no, I would not in any way shape or form want to be third wife to a guy with a bigger house.

Back to the OP -- like others have said, the question is really, what do women in whom you are interested want? Because the answer for some women might be a kindred spirit to go to Star Trek conventions with. And for another women the answer might be flashy jewelry and a big wine cellar or something. Then the next question is where to meet that kind of woman.

[Moss]

The abolishment of the Zionist Government in Israel!

Oh, sorry, wrong thread. :p


As for the women: Why don't you ask THEM?

[Fnord]

"What Women Really Want (http://www.aish.com/f/m/48949236.html)" -- by Emuna Braverman

To balance out the Corry article that I posted earlier, the above link will take you to an article that had me saying "Yup" with almost every paragraph.

Yes, it was written by a woman...

[Fnord]

...As for the women: Why don't you ask THEM?

... and receive the following responses:

"If you don't know by now, then you're too stupid to understand."

"Well, to begin with ..." (followed by an enumeration of all the faults she's noted since the day you first met).

... or the ubiquitous, "Nothing."

[Mark6]

hmmm...thats a damn good question to ask a woman.

though, i hate meeting women in bars. they are almost always crowded, and the whole idea of using alchohol to meet a strange woman in a bar, always seemed kinda scuzzy to me.
Internet dating sites worked for me.

One advantage is that you can place quite a bit of information about yourself, and know woman knows it before you actually speak. And vice versa. In fact, most women on dating sites spell out what they want. They may omit things, or genuinely believe they "want" X, and later fond out X is not very important, but it's a start.

[Undesired Walrus]

All you have to do is find the clitoris.

Seriously though, it's an old cliche, but you just have to be yourself. I don't mean not improving admirable things like kindness and general odour, but don't arch your eyebrows in a tough guy manner, chew gum or brag about your sexual conquests.

And ignore Caine.

[Donal]

Women want one man to fulfill their every want and need.

Men want every woman to fulfill their one want and need.

[Almo]

I highly recommend modern Internet Dating services. I know at least one couple who met though one and got married a few years later. I haven't used them personally, but from what I've heard from friends of mine that have used them they are quite sophisticated now. Just make sure you pick one that's reputable. I'm thinking eHarmony or Lavalife. Though I've heard rumors the eHarmony requires listing a religion, which could be a problem if you're an atheist. Check it out, anyway.

Once the dating situation ensues, just be yourself. If she perceives that you're just trying to do what's right to please her, that won't go over with most women. What they're looking for is someone who does what's right just because that's what they normally do.

This is barring any pathological behaviors. Like if you have a tic where you have to comb your hair every 2 minutes. Something like that should be addressed. :)

[themusicteacher]

They want a lot of the same things guys want: trustworthiness, confidence, independence, honesty, sensitivity, caring, etc. But the key, as several others have stated, is not to try to figure out every individual woman. That sort of reductivism has gotten many a person in trouble (and no, I don't appreciate it when women try to over-generalize "guys" as some sort of organization or movement). If you're interested in a particular woman, find out what she wants. If you think it's a reasonable match, you have to at least try to get a date. Believe me, you may go through some heartbreak or do a lot of dating but you have to be patient with yourself, let her know what you want and try to find the right woman for you.

I've been married for seven (overall) happy years today, two great sons, and I still don't know what "women" want but I do know what my wife wants and that also goes for any other person in my life. I try to know them and care sincerely about them as a person. That is the responsibility of being in a relationship of any kind: know yourself, know the other person and deal with that relationship, not the other ones you concoct in your head with "people."

[Number Six]

The way to figure out what women want isn't to ask them but rather is to observe men that are successful with women.

I've become convinced that the single trait the women respond to most (overall...there are exceptions of course) is to exude confidence. Note that that isn't necessarily the same as being confident. You can be confident but not exude it and you'll be less successful. Or you can not be confident but outwardly pretend that you are and you'll be more successful. Unfortunately, in some instances this means that for a man to be successful with women he has to be willing to lie to them.

[cornsail]

It annoys me when men speak in generalizations about what men want/like. According to most comedians we're dumb, simplistic and think with our dicks or stomachs. I'm sure a lot of women are bothered by their characterizations as irrational, whiny etc.

Crap, I just stereotyped comedians. :( Owned by irony.

[cornsail]

Unfortunately, in some instances this means that for a man to be successful with women he has to be willing to lie to them.

Nah, I think you'd be much better off exuding confidence and claiming to be unconfident than exuding unconfidence and claiming to be confident. It's not what you say that matters so much. It's not so easy to just to decide to "exude confidence", but it's workable to an extent. And it's not just about women being attracted to you, people in general are more drawn toward those who seem confident.

[Number Six]

Nah, I think you'd be much better off exuding confidence and claiming to be unconfident than exuding unconfidence and claiming to be confident. It's not what you say that matters so much. It's not so easy to just to decide to "exude confidence", but it's workable to an extent. And it's not just about women being attracted to you, people in general are more drawn toward those who seem confident.

That's what I was trying to say. If you're confident but just not the kind that wears it on his sleeve then you won't do as well. OTOH if you're not confident inside but you're able to put on a show, you'll do well. You have to put on a show and not necessarily a great one. A great show will do better than a mediocre show but a mediocre show will do better than no show at all.

[Einzig]

"Notes On Relations With Women" -- by Charles E. Corry
Mr. Corry may have a somewhat cynical view on male-female relations, but any man that has been through one is likely to look at the page and say, "Yup" at least once.


Sorry, but isn't the repeatedly mentioned assumption that women want a man who can buy them lots of gifts and dinners just a little outdated? Or is this really a big thing in (parts of?) the USA?

In the Netherlands I must say that men buying their girlfriends dinners isn't really common at all. Each pay for themselves. Certainly not something women can expect as "naturally". Neither is the assumption that a man will spend lots of his salary on her, because she usually has a job like anyone else. I saw that the birthrate in the USA is also lowering, so I assume women have enough time anyway to work. Do men "in general" in the USA boast to women about their salaries on dates and on dating profiles? I think here in the Netherlands and in Sweden it guarantees getting a shallow woman who indeed will go after the money (and leaving when it's empty?), since it is 'offered' to her like that as his asset.
From a cultural aspect: middle-class women wearing expensive jewelry and driving expensive large/fast cars in every day life in both the Netherlands and in Sweden is really not something they gain a lot of friends with, but is seen as downright arrogant and 'sad', then again expensive clothes seem to be fine. Western society is diverse enough not to say "women in western countries want X". Macho guys are really not the standard in Sweden, where here they are a bit more acceptable.

Besides that I think that a man asking "what women want?" Is perhaps as odd as a man asking "what do other men want?" when he is gay. That is, the generalized answer is equally pointless to build on, right?
Even if you fulfill "all that women want" they can still decline.

[Joe Random]

Don’t worry about what a nebulous ‘they’ want, just work on a killer pickup line to break the ice and sweep a woman off her feet. Something that shows you value her opinion on things even though you just met her a few seconds ago, like “Pardon me, miss, but do you think this rag smells like chloroform?”.

Helps keep them around in your life if you have an abandoned well in your basement and something to lower food down with …

[rustypouch]

"What Women Really Want (http://www.aish.com/f/m/48949236.html)" -- by Emuna Braverman

To balance out the Corry article that I posted earlier, the above link will take you to an article that had me saying "Yup" with almost every paragraph.

Yes, it was written by a woman...

Sorry, but reading through this, I don't believe it.

Granted, affection is needed, but it is all too easy to cross the line into creepiness. Too much of this, and it counts as smothering.

[GlennB]

"What Women Really Want (http://www.aish.com/f/m/48949236.html)" -- by Emuna Braverman

To balance out the Corry article that I posted earlier, the above link will take you to an article that had me saying "Yup" with almost every paragraph.

Yes, it was written by a woman...

From that:

"Is there any limit to the amount of reassurance a woman needs?
The wise husband knows that the answer is no."

Regrettably this also covers offering reassurance, love and devoted attention during the England v. Brazil penalty shootout in the upcoming World Cup final, or at the start of the (<10 seconds, fer f sake) Olympic 100m final.

If the article is true, womankind should frigging well grow up or give up voting rights. What a monumental crock.

No, the 'wise husband' got wise before he became a husband, and didn't take on such an emotional basket-case.

Or was that article just trolling? Ah OK. I read the rest eventually.
Very funny :D But you missed out the winkey-smiley ;)

[Cain]

In the Netherlands I must say that men buying their girlfriends dinners isn't really common at all. Each pay for themselves.

Hold up... you guys go Dutch? And didn't Tiger Woods score a Swedish chick? Probably more than one.


Don't those 2 quotes seem a little contradictory?

The important distinction is that men "are in some ways" less shallow than women. Women can have comically specific height and income requirements, but this does not really matter to a man, who may care only how attractive she appears (which carries unstated age and weight parameters).

I keep going back to the ancient Greeks for a handy comparison. Menelaus wanted Helen of Troy because she was regarded as the most beautiful woman in the world, so beautiful she could start a great war. Paris loved Helen not because others thought she was beautiful but because he thought she was beautiful. The first type of value is an exchange value. For a guy, it doesn't really matter if a woman is famous, or even regarded as hot stuff by other guys.

Someone could make an argument that a man's occupation, even his wealth, is a sign of a certain amount of accomplishment that invariably marks his character, so an interest in these things means women are less shallow.

Yes men like attractive women -- but a lot of men can be content with a woman they find attractive, right?

Certainly. It especially helps if he doesn't have options in the dating world... in which case his current woman will probably cease finding him attractive. There are other qualities men value, especially when it comes to settling, but some conditions matter more than others. When casting a role in a Hollywood film it's easier to screen people by their appearance than their acting ability. It might take time to determine if someone can act, but appearance is almost instantaneous. Later, we can throw acting out the window because Megan Fox is now available.

Of course, some guys will insist they're most attracted to a woman's brain. Natalie Portman is nerd hot, but I doubt anyone's imagining her diploma in a moment of unrestrained euphoria. Intelligence, good taste in music and so on -- they're like wood on a fire. I've tricked myself many times: "Wow, she's amazing. So sweet and accomplished and smart. Can't forget that. I mean, just very clever. Oh, she makes me ache." Oh yeah, and she's attractive.

On the Yahoo homepage last night there was an announcement that David Schwimmer (of Friends fame) is getting married. If I recall correctly, he's 43 and she's 24.

The main thing is that 25 year-old men are far less likely to commit to a 35 year-old women than vice-versa. It seems society wants to tell itself that this is because "duh, girls mature faster than boys." And even this would be fine if they were not thinking in a psychological frame.

And no, I would not in any way shape or form want to be third wife to a guy with a bigger house.

Oh sure, this is what all women say because this is what we've been socialized to believe. You want to feel special, and you would not feel special being the third wife -- it just wouldn't be "true love," right? I know want to know what's more thrilling to a woman -- an invitation from John Nobody, the guy who lazes around collecting unemployment and playing World of Warcraft, or an invitation to join Clooney's harem? Sure, you'd decline Clooney with a flattered laugh, "Oh George, you dog... no way!" But he only needs to ask you twice. OK, fine, you can have the other guy's babies.

I initially resisted the logic of polygamy when I first saw it laid out in Robert Wright's Moral Animal. Around the time I was taking a woman studies class and one of our readings mentioned the introduction of horses to the New World. The best hunters could kill more game, which meant more hides needed cleaning(?) (or whatever one does to hides, I don't know), but this meant they could support more wives. Which is what Wright meant: greater inequalities among men push marriage markets in the direction of polygamy.

In the ancestral environment you could have high status, good-looking guys who were fully committed to a single woman. And they might have ten or 12 kids, if they're lucky. Then you could have guys who were not quite as good-looking and did not have quite-as-much status, but they'd happily take as many wives as they could get. And they'd have way, way, way more children.

[plumjam]

Women want a man who can take out the bags of rubbish without necessarily using his hands.

[Einzig]

Oh sure, this is what all women say because this is what we've been socialized to believe. You want to feel special, and you would not feel special being the third wife -- it just wouldn't be "true love," right? I know want to know what's more thrilling to a woman -- an invitation from John Nobody, the guy who lazes around collecting unemployment and playing World of Warcraft, or an invitation to join Clooney's harem? Sure, you'd decline Clooney with a flattered laugh, "Oh George, you dog... no way!" But he only needs to ask you twice. OK, fine, you can have the other guy's babies.
Or they find someone with a normal good income that is neither lazy nor spoiled.


I initially resisted the logic of polygamy when I first saw it laid out in Robert Wright's Moral Animal. Around the time I was taking a woman studies class and one of our readings mentioned the introduction of horses to the New World. The best hunters could kill more game, which meant more hides needed cleaning(?) (or whatever one does to hides, I don't know), but this meant they could support more wives. Which is what Wright meant: greater inequalities among men push marriage markets in the direction of polygamy.


I don't know what you imagine with polygamy, but the modern examples I know all involve men married to several often much younger women as young as 13 or 11, often with an incestuous flavor and a religious idea that women are simply men's assets to make babies. They also have a hard time if they try to get away. In the old days women were also married because of the lack of self sustaining opportunities for them, love was hardly relevant. I think that the OP and most humane people would not want this kind of relationship. Polygamy makes no sense if it is agreed upon by both parties. Not being married at all and having an open relationship would have equal if not more benefits.

[Sun Countess]

Oh sure, this is what all women say because this is what we've been socialized to believe. You want to feel special, and you would not feel special being the third wife -- it just wouldn't be "true love," right? I know want to know what's more thrilling to a woman -- an invitation from John Nobody, the guy who lazes around collecting unemployment and playing World of Warcraft, or an invitation to join Clooney's harem? Sure, you'd decline Clooney with a flattered laugh, "Oh George, you dog... no way!" But he only needs to ask you twice. OK, fine, you can have the other guy's babies.
If those were my only two options, I'd stay single.

Thankfully, there's a whole spectrum of good and decent men in the middle, who are neither lazy slobs nor arrogant players.

Most women do want a guy who's kind, employed (or employable), clean, reasonably honest, who cares about her happiness, and is willing to commit to a relationship with her. Past that, it depends on the individual woman (and some don't even care about those basics as evidenced by the scum-of-the-earth types who have women fighting over them on the Maury Povich show). For instance, I like that my husband has a lot of interests, even though I share in maybe 1/3 of them.

[Hindmost]

Truly a trick question.

glenn

[Fnord]

Women want a man who can take out the bags of rubbish without necessarily using his hands.

"American women expect to find in their husbands a perfection that English women only hope to find in their butlers." -- W. Somerset Maugham

[fuelair]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Do they want to just get laid?

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Help me Ronda!!!!!

:D

Yes. Or, better, which woman are you talking about? They are no more alike than men.:):)

[progressquest]

My two favorite things are commitment and changing myself.

:D

[Cain]

Polygamy makes no sense if it is agreed upon by both parties. Not being married at all and having an open relationship would have equal if not more benefits.

Benefits to whom? I suppose in an era where women can support themselves, it makes sense they would not feel as compelled to marry. By the same token, ultra high-status/wealthy men would be foolish to allow female hordes to raid their financial empire via divorce-theft (I'm joking... sort of).

Sun Countess:

If those were my only two options, I'd stay single.

Thankfully, there's a whole spectrum of good and decent men in the middle, who are neither lazy slobs nor arrogant players.

Maybe. Women are far more motivated than men to "marry up" (polygyny for men, hypergamy for women).

[NewtonTrino]

Two chicks at the same time. That's what I would if I had a million dollars. - Big Dude from Office Space

uh, what was the topic again?

[aggle-rithm]

What women want is for us to move a couple of feet to the left, as we are blocking their view of a more attractive man with nicer clothes.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

...I can give you some advice; though. Why not, when you meet a woman, ask her straight out what she deems attractive in a man...

As someone who had a lot of female friends - most of whom I'd liked to have been more than just friends with - I'm afraid I have to report that just doesn't work. The answer was invariably 'A good sense of humour; makes me laugh; is kind and gentle; considerate to my needs; romantic; honest; witty....(see 'good sense of humour')' etc. In practice, they simply got the hots for guys who were physically attractive (and often missing every single one of their listed preferred traits). When said hunks dumped them, or treated them so badly that they finished it, I'd be the shoulder they'd cry on. 'Oh why couldn't he be more like you' they'd often say but, if I suggested anything romantic between us there'd be an extremely hasty 'Oh no, I like you too much as a friend'. In other words, forget all that guff about sense of humour, I just want a hunk* - the rest is optional extras.

NB This is not bitterness (I've been happily married for over 20 years to the woman of my dreams who it's impossible for me to love more - and every morning I wake up and achieve the impossible) merely observation from my single days. It is obviously a generalisation based on my own limited experiences but, it is my experience of the majority of my female friends.

*I was (and am) far from being a hunk - despite swimming between 1 and 2k every day I remain stubbornly puny...and there's sod all I can do about my lack of height. Luckily for me, my wife finds me attractive and, when it comes down to it, that's all that matters.

[quarky]

After decades of trying to answer this question, I've come up with this:

Women want men to wonder what they want.


On to gnats? What do gnats, of the non-biting variety, want when they swarm up and down frantically near one's face?

[Fnord]

What women want is for us to move a couple of feet to the left, as we are blocking their view of a more attractive man with nicer clothes.
... and nice Cartier watch ... in the nice Bentley ...

[iknownothing]

Oh sure, this is what all women say because this is what we've been socialized to believe. You want to feel special, and you would not feel special being the third wife -- it just wouldn't be "true love," right?

Or this is what women say because that is what they actually believe.

I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology in generaly because a lot of it seems to be nonsense and assumptions made to try to prove a point. What you're saying here is that people are wired to be polygamous? And women are only wired to look for the highest status man? And if they think they aren't, they're just deluding themselves?

But polygamy is far from universal, ancestral cultures included. Serial monogamy is pretty prevalent. I couldn't personally answer what factors lead to one or another choice for a culture. But it seems that there are drives & behaviors in the human race that can lead to polygamy, and other drives & behaviors that lead to monogamy. I think you are entirely overlooking anything that is contrary to your rather extreme viewpoint.

If I lived in a culture where there was a lot of violence and scarcity of resources -- maybe I'd be happiest marrying whoever stood the best chance of providing me & my children the most protection.

But in general, polygamy is not that great a deal for the woman. It's hard enough to live with & compromise with one man -- why would anyone want to have to cope with a bunch of fellow-wives too? Not to mention seeing the resources available to yourself and your offspring dwindling away with each new wife & new child.

I realize this is wandering from the original topic; I'll stop!

[Thunder]

i think with the next girl i date, i will act like an insensitive, uncaring, unattentive, jerk.

see how that works. :)

[iknownothing]

As someone who had a lot of female friends - most of whom I'd liked to have been more than just friends with - I'm afraid I have to report that just doesn't work. The answer was invariably 'A good sense of humour; makes me laugh; is kind and gentle; considerate to my needs; romantic; honest; witty....(see 'good sense of humour')' etc. In practice, they simply got the hots for guys who were physically attractive (and often missing every single one of their listed preferred traits). When said hunks dumped them, or treated them so badly that they finished it, I'd be the shoulder they'd cry on. 'Oh why couldn't he be more like you' they'd often say but, if I suggested anything romantic between us there'd be an extremely hasty 'Oh no, I like you too much as a friend'. In other words, forget all that guff about sense of humour, I just want a hunk* - the rest is optional extras.

I'm just wondering though, the whole time you were going through that, were there any women who would have been interested in you that you passed over? Nothing wrong with that; nobody's obligated to be attracted to anyone else.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I'm just wondering though, the whole time you were going through that, were there any women who would have been interested in you that you passed over? Nothing wrong with that; nobody's obligated to be attracted to anyone else.

Fair question - but I absolutely adore women (and always have) and tend to find something attractive about most (all?) women. I was certainly not aware of anyone who fancied me and would have been extremely unlikely to 'pass over them' had I been aware. Don't get me wrong, I had girlfriends off and on and was also well aware of, to put it crassly, where my 'level' was. Sorry, can't think of a better way of putting that. I'm generally bluntly self-aware* and also don't tend to be as attracted to the overt 'stunners' anyway.

*Part of the problem I suspect. As I said in a previous post, I wouldn't have had the confidence that attracted my wife to me if I'd met her several years earlier.

[TraneWreck]

Are we nearing the fourth page of an all-male discussion about what women want?

Productive.

[sgtbaker]

As someone who had a lot of female friends - most of whom I'd liked to have been more than just friends with - I'm afraid I have to report that just doesn't work. The answer was invariably 'A good sense of humour; makes me laugh; is kind and gentle; considerate to my needs; romantic; honest; witty....(see 'good sense of humour')' etc. In practice, they simply got the hots for guys who were physically attractive (and often missing every single one of their listed preferred traits). When said hunks dumped them, or treated them so badly that they finished it, I'd be the shoulder they'd cry on. 'Oh why couldn't he be more like you' they'd often say but, if I suggested anything romantic between us there'd be an extremely hasty 'Oh no, I like you too much as a friend'. In other words, forget all that guff about sense of humour, I just want a hunk* - the rest is optional extras.


I've heard that story a thousand times and I do think it's true. The problem is, she (referring to any of the females of whom you spoke) may have seen those traits in you but lacked enough of a spark to risk the friendship. It's not all that innocent, sometimes we keep the friend around because we know how you feel and need that ego boost. That's why the "friend" is always the first one we run to when we are wounded. I don't think it's a conscious thing, at least I was unaware of what I was doing until my "friend" had the nerve to get a girlfriend and I got jealous. This is all young behavior though. The problem with the "hunk/mysterious/bad boy" types is, we have a habit of falling in love with what we think they are. I believe you are not bitter but you can at least smile at this, though; of all the girls I know that went for the idea (myself included) are all either wishing for a divorce, in the middle of a divorce, or are divorced.
By that same respect, I was the hopeless "friend" to a guy. We used to write poems and short stories together, hang out till all hours of the night, call on me when he needed a shoulder, gripe about just not being able to find a girl he could trust, feel like she cared, laugh with, talk about the universe with, in short, he wanted everything I was to him, just not me. Who was he in love with? My six foot tall, green eyed-sister who is about as deep as a paper cut. You guys do it, too.

[Fnord]

Are we nearing the fourth page of an all-male discussion about what women want? Productive.
.
Then why not start a thread on "What Do Men Really Want"? It would only have a post or two before everything starts repeating...

:D

[Fnord]

... I was the hopeless "friend" to a guy. We used to write poems and short stories together, hang out till all hours of the night, call on me when he needed a shoulder, gripe about just not being able to find a girl he could trust, feel like she cared, laugh with, talk about the universe with, in short, he wanted everything I was to him, just not me. Who was he in love with? My six foot tall, green eyed-sister who is about as deep as a paper cut. You guys do it, too.

Life is simpler with a shallow person. True, the conversations are largely superficial, but isn't it easier to just say "I love you" 30 times a day than to have to explain why even once?

[rustypouch]

.
Then why not start a thread on "What Do Men Really Want"? It would only have a post or two before everything starts repeating...

:D

For me, that's simple. Someone reasonable attractive, who doesn't annoy me and doesn't hate me.

[jakesteele]

I think you have identified part of Parky's problem. There is nothing (much) identifiable for women as a class. You are better off starting with thinking of these curious creatures as individuals.

1. Don't ever ask if they've put on a few pounds

2. Compliment a new hair style even if it sucks

3. When they're emotionally upset over something, they don't want you to 'solve' the problem, they just want to be held.

4. You have to do little things like flowers or write a poem or surprise them in some way to show you still love them.

5. Don't ever forget birthdays or aniversies

6. Show you're still physically attracted to them by doing things like spontaneous caveman f**cks on the kitchen table.

To name a few.

[Ohmer]

This started playing in my head when I read this thread.

gfLD-7bCtME

[Cain]

Or this is what women say because that is what they actually believe.

Again, it doesn't matter what people say; what matters is what they do. In radio, market researchers put out survey after survey asking listeners if they would prefer a station that plays a "a wide variety." People answer "O yeah! I want a bigger variety." Uh-huh, so you don't like the stations that play the same ten popular songs over and over again. "No way, that gets boring!" OK. So they make stations that play a huge variety... and people would tune out. The ideal solution is for the radio to self-advertise that they play the biggest variety, and then relentlessly cycle through the currently popular dozen hits, occasionally throwing in a blast from the past, of course.

I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology in generaly because a lot of it seems to be nonsense and assumptions made to try to prove a point...

But polygamy is far from universal, ancestral cultures included. Serial monogamy is pretty prevalent. I couldn't personally answer what factors lead to one or another choice for a culture. But it seems that there are drives & behaviors in the human race that can lead to polygamy, and other drives & behaviors that lead to monogamy.

Fair enough. We're after what women want, right? I fully acknowledge there could be patriarchal institutions, the sort that treat women as a form of property, and could be used to impose monogamy (on women). The ancient Greeks were notorious for keeping wives in the home. In parts of Africa, as we know all too well, they limit female sexual expression by inflicting genital mutilation. Historically, a lot of women never really had a choice. Now they do... and given the option, they have sex with more than one man.

If I lived in a culture where there was a lot of violence and scarcity of resources -- maybe I'd be happiest marrying whoever stood the best chance of providing me & my children the most protection.

But in general, polygamy is not that great a deal for the woman. It's hard enough to live with & compromise with one man -- why would anyone want to have to cope with a bunch of fellow-wives too? Not to mention seeing the resources available to yourself and your offspring dwindling away with each new wife & new child.

Sounds plausible to me, but why couldn't this person have other wives? And one-tenth of Clooney's annual income is probably ten times more than average person's salary, assuming he had an off year. Moreover, it should be noted status IS a resource. When it comes to protection, you would likely want a male who has formed the right alliances.

But I'm actually straying from my original point which is that polygamy benefits women and harms men, regardless of whether or not YOU choose to have sister wives. Here's another opportunity to take the red pill.

As mentioned previously, marriage markets tend toward polygamy as inequalities widen among men, in which case, women choose to marry up (obviously I'm not talking about illegal polygamy, the kind practiced by that cultist in Israel who had 30 wives, or the religious compounds in the mid-west where girls as young as 12 are treated like currency).

Even if only some women become polygamous, it throws ratios out of whack. You could have 90% of men competing for 75% of women. So some guys get ********** the worst of way of all, which is not at all. Look at how girls at engineering schools behave; they're the queens. A month or two ago the NYT had a magazine story about frustrated college girls desperate for a quality boyfriend where men are the minority.

When ratios overwhelmingly favor men, they may not need to bother committing to one woman. A lot of social conservatives complain that "black culture" is to blame for fatherless homes/the state of Black America. Maybe not. When some horrible proportion of their male population is locked up, women are left with fewer options. Since the females can't choose to be so choosy, men need not feel as compelled to commit.

And Parky:

i think with the next girl i date, i will act like an insensitive, uncaring, unattentive, jerk.

I'm certainly not arguing that; besides, not everyone can pull it off. You can be a jerk, but females, who are generally more socially intelligent (or is that a stereotype that needs "evidence"?) may see through it. The "players"/"pick up artists" who teach guys to be ******** are not much different than the species that evolve to resemble the poisonous plant to ward off predators.

High status men might be busy with work (e.g. doctors, corporate CEOs) and besides, they OBVIOUSLY have options in the sexual market. If the girl knows your background, then she's going to be more demanding. Similarly a guy will be more inclined to put up with a girl's **** depending on 1) his options; 2) how hot she is. Power shifts as people grow older: men enter their prime earning years (and develop a sense of self), while a woman's looks fade.

[quarky]

I know a few things about what women don't want:

Dirty dishes left in the sink; crass attempts at sex when she's asleep; cracker crumbs in the sheets; my 10 minute long feed-back guitar solos with the amp turned up to eleven; urine drips on the toilet seat, or leaving it up at night; muddy footprints on the kitchen floor that match my shoe tread; my extremely comfy old sneakers...I could go on, if it would help define what they do want...but its not as simple as the opposite of me.

Both my ex-wives, when they finally shook free of me, married guys that were similar, but even bigger jerks, and they divorced them, too. Go figure.

So far, all my various wives have liked pillows and curtains. The curtains have to be up-graded a lot. None of them were very happy with their hair. They wanted the kind of hair that other women have, even though those woman are also not satisfied with their hair.

Hope this helps.

[saraban]

Not to give blowjobs while beer's spilt on their head.

[Piggy]

If you're confident but just not the kind that wears it on his sleeve then you won't do as well.

That's not confidence, that's cockiness. It'll get you laid, but confidence is better if you're looking for a stable relationship.

The confident man is at ease with himself and his environment, and has a smile on his face. The cocky lads who wear it on their sleeve will generally avoid him, unless they're very drunk or stupid.

I remember when I used to bartend in Florida, I often hung out at a place called the Purple Porpoise, where several of my friends worked, which was right behind my house. It was often full of brash young college kids and assorted ne'er-do'wells, but they would get out of my way when I walked through the bar because I moved like I was walking through my own house. And I'm one of the shyest people you'll ever meet.

[Fnord]

For me, that's simple. Someone reasonable attractive, who doesn't annoy me and doesn't hate me.
.
To illustrate further, I offer this extract from "Harvey", by Mary Chase:


Elwood: "These things always work out just the way Harvey says they will. He is very, very versatile. Did I tell you he could stop clocks?"

Dr. Chumley: "To what purpose?"

Elwood: "Well, you have heard the expression his face would stop a clock. Well, Harvey can look at your clock and stop it. And you can go anywhere you like, with anyone you like and stay as long as you like, and when you get back, not a minute will have ticked by!"

Dr. Chumley: "Do you mean that he can ... he can?"

Elwood: "You see, science has overcome time and space. Well, Harvey has not only over-come time and space, but any objections."

Dr. Chumley: "Flyspecks, flyspecks, I have been spending my life among flyspecks while miracles have been leaning on lampposts at 18th. and Fairfax. Tell me Mr. Dowd, will he do this for you?"

Elwood: "Oh, he will at anytime, but so far I haven’t been able to think of any place I’d rather be. I always have a wonderful time wherever I am and whoever I’m with. I am having a fine time right here with you doctor."

Dr. Chumley: "Oh, oh, I know where I’d go."

Elwood: "Where?"

Dr. Chumley: "I’d go to Akron."

Elwood: "Akron? Oh, yeah."

Dr. Chumley: "There is a cottage camp just outside Akron in a grove of maple trees; green, cool, beautiful."

Elwood: "That’s my favorite tree."

Dr. Chumley: "I’d go there with a pretty woman..."

Elwood: "Oh!"

Dr. Chumley: "... a strange woman ... a quiet woman..."

Elwood: "Oh ... under a tree ..."

Dr. Chumley: "... and I wouldn’t even want to know her name, while I would just be Mr. Smith, and I would send out for cold beer."

Elwood: "No whiskey, huh?"

Dr. Chumley: "No. Then I would tell her things. Things that I never told to anyone. Things that are locked deep in here. And as I talk to her I would want her to hold out her soft white hand and say 'Poor thing ... you poor, poor thing'.”

Elwood: "For how long would you want this to go on for Doctor?"

Dr. Chumley: "Two weeks."

Elwood: "Two weeks? Wouldn’t that get a little monotonous? Just Akron, cold beer and 'poor, poor thing' for 2 weeks?"

Dr. Chumley: "No ... it would be ... wonderful!"

Elwood: "Ah. I can’t help feeling doctor that you are making a mistake not allowing the woman to talk. If she had been around at all she might have picked up some very interesting news items. And I am sure you are making a mistake about all that beer and no whiskey, but it’s your two weeks!"

[The_Animus]

They want to have a guy who acts like she is the most special and important person on the planet. So make her an important person in your life by getting to know about her, her friends and family, and by giving her lots of attention and affection. Show confidence and that you have an idea of what you want out of life but are still open to listening and incorporating what she wants too.

[Delvo]

I'm just wondering though, the whole time you were going through that, were there any women who would have been interested in you that you passed over? Nothing wrong with that; nobody's obligated to be attracted to anyone else.Irrelevant; the point wasn't about whether anybody was attracted to who they should be or were obligated to be attracted to. It was about people claiming to be attracted to what their actions clearly showed they were not.

Are we nearing the fourth page of an all-male discussion about what women want?No, on both of the first two descriptions.

I believe you are not bitter but you can at least smile at this, though; of all the girls I know that went for the idea (myself included) are all either wishing for a divorce, in the middle of a divorce, or are divorced.Why would someone who's not bitter smile at someone else's unhappiness?

Anyway, even if that were generally true, it wouldn't matter to the question of what women want, because being unhappy with what you wanted does not equal actually wanting something else instead. If I order broccoli and then find out that I don't like the broccoli the restaurant gave me, I don't start liking spinach. Spinach is still spinach.

[quarky]

They want to snuggle after sex, but only if they sense you don't really want to, and you're only doing it because you're trying to change. They also seem to enjoy a man pretending to listen to them if he looks sincere and clearly would rather be doing something else.

The idea of sacrifice is titillating to a woman. If you aren't very generous, by nature, its ok to invent something that you'd like to do, and then not do it. You still get points, sometimes for many years, until she figures out the ruse, in which case, she may even admire the chicanery after you're divorced, especially if the new man is a cloying, adoring door mat of love.

Women like a touch of war in their lives for the moral high-ground they can extract from their innate opposition to it. Interesting creatures, compared to men. Men are pigs; women are more like aardvarks. Some of them want to be pregnant, which is very hard to imagine from the place of not being able to.

Very few guys wish they could get pregnant. Ultimately, I think that's the big difference between the sexes. Women that clearly don't ever want to be pregnant have a way of coming up with something else that is equally peculiar as a goal.

Clearly, I am clueless. More baffling: Women like me, in general. Its hard not to hold that against them sometimes. Sometimes I think its because I'm polite; that's why they like me. I'd rather they liked me for something a bit gutsier, like my ability to not care about money, or an ironic sense of humor.

Sometimes I envy gay guys. It must be very strange to be able to have sex without putting up with a woman. Its like cheating, in a way.

[Clownshoes]

I think we all know what women want. The brutal honest truth of it is that they want either....

A: man with power such as money, status etc.
B: man that's attractive

If you don't have any of these traits I'm sorry but the "hot" alpha female isn't going to happen unless you can pretend to be one of these individuals like others suggested or are one. That's why you have to lower your standards. Don't hold it against them though they are just following their biological instincts to provide the best situations for their young.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Men with broad shoulders.

[HarryHenderson]

...On the Yahoo homepage last night there was an announcement that David Schwimmer (of Friends fame) is getting married. If I recall correctly, he's 43 and she's 24...
The universe must be imploding because the notion that David Schwimmer has even one female admirer, let alone a potential wife (of any age) boggles not only the human mind, but actually disturbs the smallest of molecular activity in the lowest of the lowly low hydrogen atoms found in the furthest reaches of said imploding universe. I had a brief hope he'd already died of rabies or something.

Fair question - but I absolutely adore women (and always have) and tend to find something attractive about most (all?) women. I was certainly not aware of anyone who fancied me and would have been extremely unlikely to 'pass over them' had I been aware. Don't get me wrong, I had girlfriends off and on and was also well aware of, to put it crassly, where my 'level' was. Sorry, can't think of a better way of putting that. I'm generally bluntly self-aware* and also don't tend to be as attracted to the overt 'stunners' anyway...
Excellent post with more insight than many here will understand. Any man that genuinely 'adores', or as I say, 'loves' women, will NEVER be short of their company. He also mentions the one thing a majority of men truly have NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHATSOEVER. That is, where they stand on The Food Chain™. Most guys are a 5 or 6 (maybe a 7 maybe) but think they're an 8 or 9 (no 10s). George Clooney is a 9, but MaurySumBitch (fictional) from the JREF is NOT a 9 or an 8 or even a 7. He's a 5 who thinks he's supposed to be dating 9s. Maury is sure lonely. To expound on Ethan's advice, figure out what where you are and then STAY IN YOUR LEVEL OF THE FOOD CHAIN. I mean, if you prefer actual warm bodies instead of simply thoughts of them.

...None of them were very happy with their hair. They wanted the kind of hair that other women have, even though those woman are also not satisfied with their hair...
Yeah, what's up really with the hair envy?

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I've heard that story a thousand times and I do think it's true. The problem is, she (referring to any of the females of whom you spoke) may have seen those traits in you but lacked enough of a spark to risk the friendship. It's not all that innocent, sometimes we keep the friend around because we know how you feel and need that ego boost. That's why the "friend" is always the first one we run to when we are wounded. I don't think it's a conscious thing, at least I was unaware of what I was doing until my "friend" had the nerve to get a girlfriend and I got jealous. This is all young behavior though. The problem with the "hunk/mysterious/bad boy" types is, we have a habit of falling in love with what we think they are. I believe you are not bitter but you can at least smile at this, though; of all the girls I know that went for the idea (myself included) are all either wishing for a divorce, in the middle of a divorce, or are divorced.
By that same respect, I was the hopeless "friend" to a guy. We used to write poems and short stories together, hang out till all hours of the night, call on me when he needed a shoulder, gripe about just not being able to find a girl he could trust, feel like she cared, laugh with, talk about the universe with, in short, he wanted everything I was to him, just not me. Who was he in love with? My six foot tall, green eyed-sister who is about as deep as a paper cut. You guys do it, too.

Yeah, I can believe we do. Not conscious that I ever did it though. I'd have been delighted to find out someone fancied me. It has happened since - but only once I was happily married (the lure of the unobtainable?) and not often then.

[a3sigma]

Aretha knows:

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

It's what everybody wants, and almost nobody really gets, or gives.

[Lolly]

I disagree with you there a3sigma. I'm a hardened cynic, but I still think that I'm usually treated with respect, and I try to treat others with respect as well.

[Number Six]

That's not confidence, that's cockiness. It'll get you laid, but confidence is better if you're looking for a stable relationship.

The confident man is at ease with himself and his environment, and has a smile on his face. The cocky lads who wear it on their sleeve will generally avoid him, unless they're very drunk or stupid.

I remember when I used to bartend in Florida, I often hung out at a place called the Purple Porpoise, where several of my friends worked, which was right behind my house. It was often full of brash young college kids and assorted ne'er-do'wells, but they would get out of my way when I walked through the bar because I moved like I was walking through my own house. And I'm one of the shyest people you'll ever meet.

I agree that too much "on your sleeve" confidence can be cocky and not wear well in the long run but you have to have at least some at first otherwise you'll never get your foot in the door. It doesn't matter how much attractively confident you are if you never get a start. It's only in the movies, or perhaps very rare exceptions in real life, that the guy that doesn't push does better than the guy that does push.

[marksman]

i think with the next girl i date, i will act like an insensitive, uncaring, unattentive, jerk.

see how that works. :)

Good idea. All things considered, I don't know we want you reproducing anyway. :p

[a3sigma]

I disagree with you there a3sigma. I'm a hardened cynic, but I still think that I'm usually treated with respect, and I try to treat others with respect as well.

As with many things, there seems to be a correlation between how much you give, and how much you get.

My observation was prompted by reading some of the other posts in this thread.

Respectfully,

DC

[Fnord]

Aretha knows: R-E-S-P-E-C-T ...
But only when her man comes home, and only a little bit.

> LYRICS (http://www.lyrics007.com/Aretha%20Franklin%20Lyrics/Respect%20Lyrics.html) <

[Mark6]

I disagree with you there a3sigma. I'm a hardened cynic, but I still think that I'm usually treated with respect, and I try to treat others with respect as well.
You may both be right. Throughout my life I usually tried to treat other people with respect, and thought I was. Yet I was often told that I come across as rude and uncaring. How others perceive you is, unfortunately, more important than what you are striving to do.

[RenaissanceBiker]

They want to have a guy who acts like she is the most special and important person on the planet. So make her an important person in your life by getting to know about her, her friends and family, and by giving her lots of attention and affection. Show confidence and that you have an idea of what you want out of life but are still open to listening and incorporating what she wants too.

And she wants at least 3 orgasms every time. Really, you can skimp on some of those other things if you always give her her 3.

[Angus McPresley]

On a final note, there's no such thing as "leagues".


Spot on. This is a realization I've come to lately.

People have a tendency to internally rank the opposite sex on a sliding scale, from most attractive to least attractive. Then, when they get rejected by someone they consider to be low down on the scale, it comes as quite a blow, because they think that anyone above that person on the scale is henceforth unattainable to them.

It's total BS. Don't buy into it for a second. If you're ever rejected by someone you didn't consider that attractive, you might as well try for someone you consider more attractive the next time.

I note also that the same exact thing occurs when job hunting.


Is there a better term for "opposite sex" these days, given that a person may well be interested in people of the same sex?

[Hindmost]

Did some research turns out it is...



... shoes.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_75534ba1605defaf5.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))


glenn:p

[sgtbaker]

Okay, so hypothetically, you get an answer to the question 'what women want.' What happens now? What if it turns out that the answer is something that you are not? Are you going to try and become this person you think a woman wants? Then what happens a year down the road when the new identity starts slipping. She's gonna start nagging about you not being who she thought you were, it ends disasterous and you are back here asking the question again. I hate to sound like my mother but be you and the right person will love you for that. There is no answer to the question because women, just like me, want different things out of life and relationships.

[Earthborn]

Is there a better term for "opposite sex" these days, given that a person may well be interested in people of the same sex?How about SOYA; Subject Of Your Appreciation?

[Fnord]

How about SOYA; Subject Of Your Appreciation?

How about "Fiancé"? That's French for "Person I'm :rule10ing Tonight."

[fuelair]

After decades of trying to answer this question, I've come up with this:

Women want men to wonder what they want.


On to gnats? What do gnats, of the non-biting variety, want when they swarm up and down frantically near one's face?CO2

[quarky]

CO2

Thanks. That was succinct. Now I can move on with my studies of women and their wants.

[quixotecoyote]

I've answered this question before to whiny friends: A man worth being with.

Are you worth being with? Be honest. Self-evaluate. Why would anyone find you fun, interesting, and attractive? If you can't come up with some good reasons, it's time for self-improvement. If you can, then you need to put the self-pity on the shelf and move along.

eta: Upon further thought, I should probably mention that you need to decide what you want in a mate and who you need to be to make that work.

I do stand by the idea that "just be yourself" is a horrible idea if who you are is currently not getting anywhere.

[Cain]

Women -- all women -- love to discuss Israeli politics.

[quarky]

I've answered this question before to whiny friends: A man worth being with.

Are you worth being with? Be honest. Self-evaluate. Why would anyone find you fun, interesting, and attractive? If you can't come up with some good reasons, it's time for self-improvement. If you can, then you need to put the self-pity on the shelf and move along.

eta: Upon further thought, I should probably mention that you need to decide what you want in a mate and who you need to be to make that work.

I do stand by the idea that "just be yourself" is a horrible idea if who you are is currently not getting anywhere.

Funny how much advice is of the "How to change" variety, and how much is "be yourself" stuff. Buddists might argue against the self, and being it. More like something to destroy or starve to death so you can be self-less and light and groovy.

The only thing more disgusting than a fake cowboy in a pick-up bar is a fake enlightened dude. If rich, both get plenty of action in spite of their awkward outfits, but its more pathetic for the guy that thinks he's on the path.
Thank god it all matters less and less as we get older.

Too bad legitimate apathy about getting laid is an aphrodisiac to some women. A vow of celibacy is like magic, but it only works once, as per god forcing an ironic coupling, so that you could fail with your vow.

I thinks chics dig that stuff.

[sgtbaker]

I do stand by the idea that "just be yourself" is a horrible idea if who you are is currently not getting anywhere.

If who you are is not getting you anywhere then change who you are hanging around with, not who you are. You can only pretend to be someone else for so long before the facade starts slipping.

[iknownothing]

If who you are is not getting you anywhere then change who you are hanging around with, not who you are. You can only pretend to be someone else for so long before the facade starts slipping.

And by that time your spouse is expecting you to be the person you portrayed yourself as, but you just want to be yourself, and then you resent him/her for trying to "change" you.

[Belz...]

What do women want?

They want everything you own.

[sgtbaker]

And by that time your spouse is expecting you to be the person you portrayed yourself as, but you just want to be yourself, and then you resent him/her for trying to "change" you.

To quote my dearest friend about a year after she was married and learned that her husband is a complete stranger, "I was duped!"

[quadraginta]

To quote my dearest friend about a year after she was married and learned that her husband is a complete stranger, "I was duped!"


This is one of a number of arguments in favor of living in sin for a year or two before marriage.

[Polaris]

I think we all know what women want. The brutal honest truth of it is that they want either....

A: man with power such as money, status etc.
B: man that's attractive

If you don't have any of these traits I'm sorry but the "hot" alpha female isn't going to happen unless you can pretend to be one of these individuals like others suggested or are one. That's why you have to lower your standards. Don't hold it against them though they are just following their biological instincts to provide the best situations for their young.

You mean all the sitcoms are lying to me?!

The universe must be imploding because the notion that David Schwimmer has even one female admirer, let alone a potential wife (of any age) boggles not only the human mind, but actually disturbs the smallest of molecular activity in the lowest of the lowly low hydrogen atoms found in the furthest reaches of said imploding universe. I had a brief hope he'd already died of rabies or something.


Excellent post with more insight than many here will understand. Any man that genuinely 'adores', or as I say, 'loves' women, will NEVER be short of their company. He also mentions the one thing a majority of men truly have NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHATSOEVER. That is, where they stand on The Food Chain™. Most guys are a 5 or 6 (maybe a 7 maybe) but think they're an 8 or 9 (no 10s). George Clooney is a 9, but MaurySumBitch (fictional) from the JREF is NOT a 9 or an 8 or even a 7. He's a 5 who thinks he's supposed to be dating 9s. Maury is sure lonely. To expound on Ethan's advice, figure out what where you are and then STAY IN YOUR LEVEL OF THE FOOD CHAIN. I mean, if you prefer actual warm bodies instead of simply thoughts of them.


Yeah, what's up really with the hair envy?

BS. If you're talking about a scale based on physical attractiveness, I've seen and known no shortage of disgusting, sloppy losers with low-paying jobs who have a very comely girl on their arm, sometimes for years, and sometimes there is another one who will fight the existing one for exclusive rights to him.

I'll grant that those "women" are usually broken or have self-esteem so low it could rupture spacetime, but the majority of men will overlook that at least for years if she's good-looking enough. (Wow, no aspect of that sounds appealing).

I said that there's no such thing as leagues earlier for a reason. Take your average 9 woman - that level where you see a girl who's hotter than nearly all the A-list actresses you've seen, but for whatever reason isn't a model or actress - and put yourself in her shoes. She gets hit on all the time, probably every day, by strange men (in both senses of the word). Most of those guys are probably creepers, but occasionally she'll find one she's attracted to, for whatever reason.

The odds here of him being a decent man, rather than a falsely-confident, cocky king prick douchebag are very bad, because the latter is too stupid to realize one from the other, and a lot of girls ("women" have outgrown this) are either too delusional or immature (usually due to youth) to know the difference as well. Now, those girls do still have options, so if you look like Booger from Revenge of the Nerds, you're sunk. But if you're a reasonably good-looking guy who remebers to shower, don't act like you're from The Jersey Shore (whatever that show's called), and aren't a clingy pushover, your odds are much better than you think. The bottom line is best-looking women often get asked out the least, and when they do it's usually by adolescents in the bodies of male models, or creepy old men in trench coats. Decent and good-looking is as rare among men as it is among women. Pull it off and you're golden. Don't just do it for the women either, by the way. It has other positive aspects as well.

Success helps too. Monetary or otherwise (if another form exists).

[quixotecoyote]

If who you are is not getting you anywhere then change who you are hanging around with, not who you are. You can only pretend to be someone else for so long before the facade starts slipping.

No, I said change who you are, not pretend to be someone else, although the latter can sometimes be a step toward the former.

Are you exactly the same person you were in high school, or have you changed, grown, and improved at all?

[NewtonTrino]

They want everything you own.

I LOL'd at this one.

[king catfish]

Try not talking about Israel for two seconds.

[lector]

Women either want to be cuddled, or want you to shower them with enough creature comforts to enable them to overlook the fact that you're just not a cuddler.

NOTE: scenario #2 is prone to turn into scenario #1 when the right cuddler comes along.

[a3sigma]

They want everything you own.

In regard to which:

The OP lamented that he was still single. Be careful what you ask for, Parky.

I may not know what women want, but I know what marriage is. Marriage is a legal contract, subject to compulsory binding arbitration by the state. This arbitration may entail everything you own, and everything you will ever own or earn for as long as you live, as well as your estate.

Would any sane adult willingly enter into any other type of contractual obligation on those terms?

[gnome]

Regarding "leagues" -- I don't believe that dating someone "higher" is unattainable... but bear in mind that if you're only looking at the higher end, you're exhibiting behavior that you're expecting the other person not to. A recipe for failure.

If you think that relationships aren't just about who is the most attractive... you need to be willing to also contemplate women that aren't the top of your "hot" list either, or you're just not being consistent. I had this problem for a long time.

[sgtbaker]

In regard to which:

The OP lamented that he was still single. Be careful what you ask for, Parky.

I may not know what women want, but I know what marriage is. Marriage is a legal contract, subject to compulsory binding arbitration by the state. This arbitration may entail everything you own, and everything you will ever own or earn for as long as you live, as well as your estate.

Would any sane adult willingly enter into any other type of contractual obligation on those terms?

Marriage is grand, divorce is ten grand :D.

[Polaris]

Regarding "leagues" -- I don't believe that dating someone "higher" is unattainable... but bear in mind that if you're only looking at the higher end, you're exhibiting behavior that you're expecting the other person not to. A recipe for failure.

If you think that relationships aren't just about who is the most attractive... you need to be willing to also contemplate women that aren't the top of your "hot" list either, or you're just not being consistent. I had this problem for a long time.

Having lived in Dallas for five years and been to Miami enough times to know, there absolutely are women who are outwardly very beautiful, but as people aren't worth a fart in a monsoon.

Your presupposition doesn't work though. Even if you date "below" yourself, that person may still be looking upward, or even laterally. For that matter, so may you be. Nothing is so sure of a thing that you should ignore other, better opportunities because they might not work. I've said for years that you should want to look at your girlfriend naked, whatever that means for you (or boyfriend as the case may be). Of course that doesn't rule out the "bird in the hand" thing either. Don't turn down the 8 who works at the Blockbuster because your knees are knocking for the 10 at Piercing Pagoda. Turn down the one who's the more puke-inducing when you talk to her (if you don't talk to her, you don't deserve either one.)

[sgtbaker]

The whole "league" thing is a load of crap from start to finish. Dating higher or lower than yourself is an idea that should have been left behind in high school. It's funny in movies but in reality, a really attractive or well put together person is of no more value than a face that doesn't launch a thousand ships in casual clothing. Maybe that's just something ugly people say or maybe I am not getting what divides these leagues. Can someone describe two people and explain what puts one person in a higher league that the other?

[gnome]

The whole "league" thing is a load of crap from start to finish. Dating higher or lower than yourself is an idea that should have been left behind in high school. It's funny in movies but in reality, a really attractive or well put together person is of no more value than a face that doesn't launch a thousand ships in casual clothing. Maybe that's just something ugly people say or maybe I am not getting what divides these leagues. Can someone describe two people and explain what puts one person in a higher league that the other?

It's a group perception thing. I don't think that beauty is objective or that it gives someone more value as a person... but physical attraction IS part of romantic coupling, and even without a true objective standard there ARE people that get more of that kind of notice. Basing social mores on it may be wrong, but observing that it happens is not.

[23_Tauri]

And she wants at least 3 orgasms every time. Really, you can skimp on some of those other things if you always give her her 3.
My god, this is so true.

[quadraginta]

In regard to which:

The OP lamented that he was still single. Be careful what you ask for, Parky.

I may not know what women want, but I know what marriage is. Marriage is a legal contract, subject to compulsory binding arbitration by the state. This arbitration may entail everything you own, and everything you will ever own or earn for as long as you live, as well as your estate.

Would any sane adult willingly enter into any other type of contractual obligation on those terms?


This is one another of a number of arguments in favor of living in sin for a year or two before marriage.

[Fnord]

All I really know about what women want is this: Whatever it it, it changes constantly.

[HarryHenderson]

...BS. If you're talking about a scale based on physical attractiveness, I've seen and known no shortage of disgusting, sloppy losers with...
And I'll say without even the slightest hint of hesitation that you've not a clue of a clue what you're talking about. Sorry. You just go on up ahead and do what you do though, apparently you've been told you've got it all licked. Good luck. :)

[gumboot]

The more I learn about people, the more I realise that ultimately we're all exactly the same, as much as we might like to fool ourselves into thinking we're not.

[eeyore1954]

I am 33. Gonna be 34 in June. Still single. Still trying to figure out..what women want.

Do they want a boyfriend? A husband?

Do they want to just get laid?

Do they want a bad-boy..or a nice guy?

Do they want a guy to call them once a day..or once a week?

Do they prefer confidence or sensitivity?

Do they care about looks...or personality?

Help me Ronda!!!!!

:D

Cindy Lauper (sp?) Girls Just Want to Have Fun
Wierd Al Girls Just Want to Have Lunch

[Polaris]

And I'll say without even the slightest hint of hesitation that you've not a clue of a clue what you're talking about. Sorry. You just go on up ahead and do what you do though, apparently you've been told you've got it all licked. Good luck. :)

Well jumpin' Jesus, what a compelling argument! By all means, be my guest and tell me what I have or haven't seen. Fools rush in...

[quarky]

Hormones seem to effect a woman a lot. After 40 plus years of living with women, I'm amazed that I've never kept a little calendar for myself, by way of predicting when I can expect the unpredictable behavior. It always catches me by surprise.

I wonder if I'm the only married type guy that is this stupid?

[Mark6]

Hormones seem to effect a woman a lot. After 40 plus years of living with women, I'm amazed that I've never kept a little calendar for myself, by way of predicting when I can expect the unpredictable behavior. It always catches me by surprise.

I wonder if I'm the only married type guy that is this stupid?
Probably. Took me less than a year to figure it out -- and that was BEFORE I got married.

[Xephyr]

If we're talking just basic generalizations of the female gender and what they want...

I think it's pretty safe to say they want a grown-up responsible mature adult standing by their side who sincerely respects women as intelligent equals rather than some childish irresponsible egocentric who views them as play toys with titties and expects to be 'mommied' for the rest of their life by every female they hook up with.

From what most women have told me over the years... The former is far tougher to find, and the latter is much more common than some men are willing to admit.

Anecdotal evidence I know, but I think it might be something worthwhile to chew on at least.

(Hey, don't shoot the messenger...This is just what I've been told)

;)

[Ryokan]

What do women want?

More.

[Fnord]

Some say that plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery, so...


If we're talking just basic generalizations of the male gender and what they want...

I think it's pretty safe to say they want a grown-up responsible mature adult standing by their side who sincerely respects men as intelligent equals, rather than some childish irresponsible drama queen who views men as fashion accessories with wallets and penises, and who expects to be 'daddied' for the rest of her life by every male she hooks up with.

From what most men have told me over the years... The former is far tougher to find, and the latter is much more common than some women are willing to admit.

Anecdotal evidence I know, but I think it might be something worthwhile to chew on at least.

(Hey, don't shoot the messenger... Zephyr said it first!)


;)

Sorry 'bout that, Zeph...

[Fnord]

More.

Soeone's been reading "Rose Is Rose", eh?

;)

[Ron_Tomkins]

What do women want?

Me.

[Xephyr]

;)

Sorry 'bout that, Zeph...


Hey man... just repeatin' what I've been told.
:con2:

As for what men want : Well that depends on the current moment that's passing by. Take for example at this particular moment in time... all I want is a beer. In an hour from now it'll probably be some baby back ribs.

Just sayin'
:alc:

[quarky]

Probably. Took me less than a year to figure it out -- and that was BEFORE I got married.

Thanks.

On the other hand, I've also noticed that women get very angry at the suggestion that its just their hormones speaking. They hate that.
Perhaps they have been drawn to me over the years, against my logical "me", because I haven't kept track?

I don't have a horse in this race, mind you. If anything, I've advised guys that can't score to rejoice in their good fortune. If nothing else (in my case) you don't have to give away the homes you have built.

I guess what I'm saying is this:

If you don't want to be dragged through the wringer, keep track of their cycles.

Otoh, being dragged through this wringer allows a builder, with normal incentives, to build more than one home.

[slingblade]

Thanks.

On the other hand, I've also noticed that women get very angry at the suggestion that its just their hormones speaking. They hate that.

That's because some of your fair sex trot that ragged pony out any time a woman has any sort of negative emotion, be it anger, irritation, annoyance, hurt, sadness...it's like we don't have any of those emotions except when we're bleeding, so any time we do have one, we must be bleeding, even if this means our periods last 365 days straight.

My ex was famous for using this as an excuse not to listen to me begging him to please not go out and drink again tonight, or to dammit stop hitting me. I must be "on the rag again."

I wonder if you could, for just a moment, imagine how belittling it is to have very real problems blamed on your damned hormones every single time?

That's why some of us get angry.

Oh, and some of us do, actually, realize it when it IS the hormones talking, and we can also actually manage an apology for such.

[blobru]

Thanks.

On the other hand, I've also noticed that women get very angry at the suggestion that its just their hormones speaking. They hate that. ...


I told my woman it was just her hormones speaking once.

She told me that was just my hormones speaking.

I then resumed sanding her bunions.

[HarryHenderson]

Well jumpin' Jesus, what a compelling argument! By all means, be my guest and tell me what I have or haven't seen. Fools rush in...
Actually, I need to apologize in general for my involvement in this thread. My inexplicable eagerness to claim some kind of valid knowledge of the subject somehow trumped my rational mind, which sooo already knew the insanity of the question. I'd ask that you pay no further attention to what I've written as I'm unable to properly and more respectfully expound on things further.

Yeah, I guess I did rush in...:eek:

[quarky]

Me too.

[Soapy Sam]

Speaking as a 55 year old single man... I believe I'll go read "Computers & the Internet",

[Fnord]

... I wonder if you could, for just a moment, imagine how belittling it is to have very real problems blamed on your damned hormones every single time? That's why some of us get angry.
Oh, and some of us do, actually, realize it when it IS the hormones talking, and we can also actually manage an apology for such.

With my ex, it was a hormonal issue, and she knew it. She was also bipolar, and she knew that, too. She was on Mellaril to moderate her moods, but that made her feel dull and lethargic, so she took it only when she felt she needed to. The trouble is, that she felt she needed to only after she'd drawn blood, whether from me or the kids.

Did I ever say, "PMS time?" Yes, and I suffered for it. Did I ever say, "Did you take your pill?" Yes, but only after I had suffered for asking the first question. Sometimes, asking these questions are as much for the good of the PMS/Bipolar victim as for the people around them, and despite the risks. I'd rather have had her beating on me than on the kids, since my bones weren't as easy to break.

Nowadays, the kids barely acknowledge her existence. I haven't even spoken to her in over a decade.

Sling, I know the kind of Hell you've been through, and I'll not defend anybody that tries to downplay any of it. Sometimes, though, there is another side to a similar story. Sometimes, someone simply has to know if it's "that time" again for the safety of their children and their selves.

[Ivor the Engineer]

That's because some of your fair sex trot that ragged pony out any time a woman has any sort of negative emotion, be it anger, irritation, annoyance, hurt, sadness...it's like we don't have any of those emotions except when we're bleeding, so any time we do have one, we must be bleeding, even if this means our periods last 365 days straight.

My ex was famous for using this as an excuse not to listen to me begging him to please not go out and drink again tonight, or to dammit stop hitting me. I must be "on the rag again."

I wonder if you could, for just a moment, imagine how belittling it is to have very real problems blamed on your damned hormones every single time?

That's why some of us get angry.

Oh, and some of us do, actually, realize it when it IS the hormones talking, and we can also actually manage an apology for such.

That's just the hormones talking.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Assuming a woman is playing the dating/marriage game rationally (and not cheating) she should want the best man she can get given her assets.

[slingblade]

With my ex, it was a hormonal issue, and she knew it. She was also bipolar, and she knew that, too. She was on Mellaril to moderate her moods, but that made her feel dull and lethargic, so she took it only when she felt she needed to. The trouble is, that she felt she needed to only after she'd drawn blood, whether from me or the kids.

Did I ever say, "PMS time?" Yes, and I suffered for it. Did I ever say, "Did you take your pill?" Yes, but only after I had suffered for asking the first question. Sometimes, asking these questions are as much for the good of the PMS/Bipolar victim as for the people around them, and despite the risks. I'd rather have had her beating on me than on the kids, since my bones weren't as easy to break.

Nowadays, the kids barely acknowledge her existence. I haven't even spoken to her in over a decade.

Sling, I know the kind of Hell you've been through, and I'll not defend anybody that tries to downplay any of it. Sometimes, though, there is another side to a similar story. Sometimes, someone simply has to know if it's "that time" again for the safety of their children and their selves.

Yup, I know that, and I'm sincerely sorry you and the kids had to endure it. In cases like those, you're absolutely right. And thank you for understanding my POV, too. I appreciate that a lot.

But that extreme isn't what I meant at all.

What I meant is those few guys who deflect their problems onto their women's hormonal state. When the guy is being the jerk, but tells all and sundry it's 'cause "the old bag I'm married to is raggin' again."

These guys not only don't have a clue when their partner's cycle is, they don't care. It isn't about her. It's about them blaming her when they're the problem. Those guys make the rest of you look bad, and yeah, I know there's nothing you can do about them.

But the point is if a man wants to know why that question makes a woman angry, maybe that's why for some of them.

[Mark6]

That's because some of your fair sex trot that ragged pony out any time a woman has any sort of negative emotion, be it anger, irritation, annoyance, hurt, sadness...it's like we don't have any of those emotions except when we're bleeding, so any time we do have one, we must be bleeding, even if this means our periods last 365 days straight.

My ex was famous for using this as an excuse not to listen to me begging him to please not go out and drink again tonight, or to dammit stop hitting me. I must be "on the rag again."

I wonder if you could, for just a moment, imagine how belittling it is to have very real problems blamed on your damned hormones every single time?

Actually, my ex-wife was manic-depressive. Her mood swings had very little to do with being "on the rag" -- or at least that latter factor was completely overshadowed by manic-depressive condition. My current wife's moods are noticeably affected by her period cycle, but a) she is aware of it, and b) it's nothing compared to the other stuff.

I guess I should have explained it in previous post.

[Ryokan]

Soeone's been reading "Rose Is Rose", eh?

;)

Never heard of it.

[steve s]

Never heard of it.

http://comics.com/rose_is_rose/

Steve S

[Fnord]

... What I meant is those few guys who deflect their problems onto their women's hormonal state. When the guy is being the jerk, but tells all and sundry it's 'cause "the old bag I'm married to is raggin' again"...
Counter-point:

She: "What's wrong?"

He: "Nothing ... why?"

She: "You seem upset."

He: "I'm not upset."

She: "Well, you seem upset."

He: "Well, I am not upset."

She: "Then why are you raising your voice?"

He: "Because I'm getting irritated."

She: "What is making you irritated?"

He: "You keep asking me if I'm upset."

She: "Well, you are, aren't you?"

He: "Well, I am now!"

She: "HA! I knew it! Why did you try to hide it from me? What else are you hiding? Are you disgusted with me? You think I'm fat, don't you? Admit it! You won't talk to me or look at me or take me out or hold my hand! You only want to watch that stupid TV! And another thing..."

He (thinking): "... shoot me now ... somebody please just shoot me now..."

[gnome]

Assuming a woman is playing the dating/marriage game rationally (and not cheating) she should want the best man she can get given her assets.

...and just how many women (or men for that matter) play the game rationally?

Question isn't what they SHOULD want :P

[Skeptic]

Surely the issue is what parky means by "33 and single". Does he mean "I'm on the dating scene, had two or three long-term relationships, but they ended sadly, I can't seem to find the one I want"? Or does he mean "I'm a virgin who never had a date"? In both cases he may well feel he doesn't know what women want, but in both it means something different.

[Einzig]

I found this fantastic old article (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13444/13444-h/13444-h.htm) . Just for laughs, though some very conservative Christians might still think this is what women want to hear.

[alex04]

My wife respects honesty. Start there.


There you go. Start with his wife.

[Skeptic]

I found this fantastic old article (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13444/13444-h/13444-h.htm) . Just for laughs, though some very conservative Christians might still think this is what women want to hear.

Actually, Eugenics was the really cool, progressive, with-it, anti-clerical thing at the time. It was what the same sort of people who today "live green" or, 30 years ago, declared "open marriage" is the way to go read back then -- NOT what conservative Christians, who were on the whole very much against eugenics, read.

That's the problem with being "with it" and "progressive". It all looks very smart and intellectual and the way to go at the time, but, looking back, it seems one wasted one's life on a series of passing fads.

[quadraginta]

Actually, Eugenics was the really cool, progressive, with-it, anti-clerical thing at the time. It was what the same sort of people who today "live green" or, 30 years ago, declared "open marriage" is the way to go read back then -- NOT what conservative Christians, who were on the whole very much against eugenics, read.

That's the problem with being "with it" and "progressive". It all looks very smart and intellectual and the way to go at the time, but, looking back, it seems one wasted one's life on a series of passing fads.


Just curious. Did you actually read any of the posted link, or did you just see the word "eugenics" in the title, and stop there?

[Cain]

Just curious. Did you actually read any of the posted link, or did you just see the word "eugenics" in the title, and stop there?

You've been an active member for almost a year, so you probably know by now: Skeptic compensates for weak to non-existent arguments by resorting to ominous parallels, psychoanalysis, and defamation. If he doesn't have one already, he should start a podcast.

[Earthborn]

Actually, Eugenics was the really cool (snip) a series of passing fads.To sum up your argument: "The problem with progressives is that they progress."

[Skeptic]

Yes, indeed, Earthborn. The problem is that progress is a comparative for which we have no superlative. It is pointless to progress just because it is a change. The problem is not with change per se; but change should be for something, not merely for change.

The wise man, said Burke, examines his prejudices not to be rid of them just because they are prejudices -- but to see which of them are justified prejudices and which are not.

Take the average American in the 1930s. He was prejudiced against gays and Blacks, which was bad, but also against criminals and enormous government intervention, which was good.

Today most Americans would accept Blacks and gays, but also a degree of government intervention that would lead to burning down Congress in the 1930s as being dictatorial.

[Earthborn]

The problem is not with change per se; but change should be for something, not merely for change."Progress" isn't just change, it is change assumed to be for the better. The examples you gave of "passing fads" were examples of changes for the better.

The wise man, said Burke, examines his prejudices not to be rid of them just because they are prejudices -- but to see which of them are justified prejudices and which are not."Prejudice" is by definition a judgement that is not justified. I assume you are talking about Edmund Burke (and not my favourite Burke, James) but I need to see an actual quote before I am going to believe he ever said anything like it.

Today most Americans would accept Blacks and gays, but also a degree of government intervention that would lead to burning down Congress in the 1930s as being dictatorial.Have you been paying attention when you were taught United States history? The government interventions in the 1930s were far far greater than anything that is happening now. Conservatives and Libertarians can't stop talking about how "dictatorial" they were, and liberal progressives don't disagree. Those interventions were also, at the time, wildly popular.

[Skeptic]

"Progress" isn't just change, it is change assumed to be for the better. The examples you gave of "passing fads" were examples of changes for the better.

The "open marriage" fad and the "all family types are equal" fad have not been changes to the better. Certainly the number of broken homes and miserable children and adults they caused is great, if nothing else.

Neither is the "go green" fad of much use in my view. It seems that we pay a huge price in government intervention and regulations to little effect.

"Prejudice" is by definition a judgement that is not justified.

Correct, of course, in 20th century English. In Burke's time it had a much more neutral meaning, closer to "judgment" or "preconception", not the modern "prejudice".

Have you been paying attention when you were taught United States history?

Well, no. Since I'm not an American and hadn't studies American history there...

The government interventions in the 1930s were far far greater than anything that is happening now.

I think that's a great exaggeration.