Exorcist claims levitation seen?

[BlackLotus]

Hello all, my first post here.

I come here looking for guidance in the matter of critical thinking and also more evidence to debunk a certain pastor Chris Ward (was show in the excellent Penn and Teller show about exorcism)

[I made a similar post on a UK forum so UK readers please forgive me but I wanted a more international response.]

In the series he was shown being ridiculous, using olive oil and other silliness.
I've seen him on youtube saying he's going to exorcise UFO's if they should come. He markets a book too on a sort of Exorcism for dummies
All laughable I know.

But something he said has got its hooks in me. He said it on the Penn&Teller show and its also on his website

"Similar to the 1970's movie "The Exorcist," Ward says he's seen possessed people spit, curse and float in the air.


Now, how can he have been mistaken or imagined this?Surely this could be proof (if evidence could be gathered) of something. Is there any proof out there of anything like this. If not, why would he lie? He is suppose to be a man of the church, don't they have rules about lying? Or is his church just banana's anyway?


I would greately appreciate your thoughts on this apparent nonsense.

[godless dave]

If not, why would he lie?

To further his own career and sell his book.

[BlackLotus]

Thanks Dave for your reply

[BlackLotus]

I found another one now that claims similar

I cannot post URL but if you google "exorcist illinois university" its some catholic guy giving a talk at the University.

Why would he be not telling the truth and/or mistaken?

[Sledge]

I found another one now that claims similar

I cannot post URL but if you google "exorcist illinois university" its some catholic guy giving a talk at the University.

Why would he be not telling the truth and/or mistaken?

To further his own career and sell his book.

This seems pretty obvious to me. Why do UFO nuts continue to write books about decades old cases? Why does Michael Bay continue to claim his films are good? Same answer.

[phunk]

I found another one now that claims similar

I cannot post URL but if you google "exorcist illinois university" its some catholic guy giving a talk at the University.

Why would he be not telling the truth and/or mistaken?

$$$

He's being paid for that appearance, if the story is boring, who's going to hire him again?

[learner]

There is no reason to think that a man of the church would lie less than anyone else.
As for-
Spitting..Yep, it happens
Cursing..Yep, it happens ( not me though cos im good)
Floating..Nope, doesnt happen.

[grayman]

I found another one now that claims similar

I cannot post URL but if you google "exorcist illinois university" its some catholic guy giving a talk at the University.

Father Vince Lampert (http://www.sjcnc.org/news.aspx)was thereon the 26th of October.

Fr. Lampert is one of only 12 officially trained and recognized exorcist priests in the US, and has been serving in this capacity for four years. He is also a full-time pastor of a large parish in Indianapolis.

Article about it here (http://www.bobfelton.com/?p=7367).

A couple thoughts come right to mind.

First, since exorcism is primitive, superstitious bunkum, what on earth is a public university doing inviting an exorcist to lecture?

[I Ratant]

One of the priests I knew at college said that while he was in Italy, one of his teachers took him to see a "possessed" person being held in a church, who immediately recognized my friend as a priest, although he wasn't dressed as one.
Obviously he said, "The demon in the man saw of the mark on my soul as a priest".
That only members of the priesthood were shown this poor guy wasn't a consideration.
It bothers me that educated people believe in possession.
Levitation is one of those "features" that only the adept/deluded (same thing) or scam artists have seen/performed.

[BlackLotus]

Thanks Grayman for posting that.

I still cannot understand how someone working for a main stream religion can stand there and lie through his teeth. Maybe he really belives what he saw, but there again no doubt he hears voices from the great bearded god in the sky too.


Somehow I still don't feel we've broken this properly, other than said "These people talk rubbish"

[Sledge]

There's nothing else to say, apart from "burden of proof" and "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." It's not up to us to prove that someone didn't levitate, it's up to the person making the claim to show that they did.

[godless dave]

I still cannot understand how someone working for a main stream religion can stand there and lie through his teeth.

In that case, I suggest doing some research into the history of all organized religions everywhere in the world, 5000 BC through present.

[kookbreaker]

But something he said has got its hooks in me. He said it on the Penn&Teller show and its also on his website

"Similar to the 1970's movie "The Exorcist," Ward says he's seen possessed people spit, curse and float in the air.


While I have not seen every episode of Penn & Teller I am fairly certain there was no floating taking place, beyond magic tricks that is.

[Bikewer]

Note that the Transcendental Meditation organization, which has for years claimed to teach "Yogic Flying", furnished pictures of some of it's students apparently levitating to major media outlets.
These pictures were quickly proved to be fraudulent (by Randi, no less)....

The motive? As stated above...More students, more money.

[Sun Countess]

I still cannot understand how someone working for a main stream religion can stand there and lie through his teeth.

Really? I'd be more surprised to learn that someone working for a mainstream religion would stand there and say something truthful.

[BlackLotus]

Yes I suppose I was being rather foolish there (understatement I know) ,but my motive was trying to draw out what his reasons could be for perpetuating such mythology.

Many thanks for all your replies!

[plumjam]

This looks like it might be the talk he gave. (3 parts)
Not great quality, but you can hear what he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia9VrAWvAKo

[Stray Cat]

The reason religion lies is to cause fear, fear helps the weak minded to concentrate on a fictitious god who they are scared of upsetting in case they get possessed and are caused to levitiate and spew green projectile vomit at priests. Therefore making the flock easier to control and ultimately fleece.

[Personal Grudge]

My only comment is... look at previous religions that were likely based on lies. Not only from one individual, but often a group of individuals. The LDS church comes to mind.

According to Mormon beliefs, 12 people (including Joseph Smith) handled the golden plates that were delivered by the angel Moroni. Others claimed to have seen the angel themselves. These individuals were willing to provide affidavits regarding these occurrences.

Now, what do you find more likely? That an angel really did appear to multiple people, delivering golden plates that could be read by magic glasses? Or... maybe religious people also have plenty of reasons to lie?

Religion certainly does not seem to generate an increase in honesty.

[kmortis]

My only comment is... look at previous religions that were likely based on lies. Not only from one individual, but often a group of individuals. The LDS church comes to mind.

According to Mormon beliefs, 12 people (including Joseph Smith) handled the golden plates that were delivered by the angel Moroni. Others claimed to have seen the angel themselves. These individuals were willing to provide affidavits regarding these occurrences.

Now, what do you find more likely? That an angel really did appear to multiple people, delivering golden plates that could be read by magic glasses? Or... maybe religious people also have plenty of reasons to lie?

Religion certainly does not seem to generate an increase in honesty.
Or, Joe lied, gained a certain amount of temporal power and suddenly the other 11 are not willing to contradict the newly formed leader1, so they agree to any balderdash that he puts forth. His strength comes from god via those golden tablets? Well, then they MUST exist. The tablets got to Joe via the Angel Moron-i? Well, then that angel was seen, at noon, in full sight of the eleven..yup, yup, yup. Cause to cause doubt upon Joe would shake the modicum of power that they've gotten due to their closeness to him.

As for the exocists? Take one part cognitive disonance, one part "tradiation" and a heaping helping of papal power, mix thoroughly and bake at 375F for 2000 years.


1Andersen, H.C. Kejserens nye Klæder

[Personal Grudge]

As for the exocists? Take one part cognitive disonance, one part "tradiation" and a heaping helping of papal power, mix thoroughly and bake at 375F for 2000 years.

Can I get my exorcist seasoned and seared? I find regular baked exorcist a little bland to my taste. :D

[BlackLotus]

:)
Kmortis could you please explain cognitive dissonance in this context. I have only a basic knowledge of it and can't figure into this thread.
I am sure you are right, I don't mean to criticize or anything.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Thanks Grayman for posting that.

I still cannot understand how someone working for a main stream religion can stand there and lie through his teeth. Maybe he really belives what he saw, but there again no doubt he hears voices from the great bearded god in the sky too.


Somehow I still don't feel we've broken this properly, other than said "These people talk rubbish"

In his own mind he's probably not lying. Like you, I doubt he'd make a deliberate, out and out lie. What has probably occured is an exaggeration of what was seen - eg in much the same way as TM 'bouncing' was viewed as flying, someone 'possessed' arching their back in spasm may look like (to some hysterical believer anyway) they have lifted off the bed completely.

[kmortis]

Can I get my exorcist seasoned and seared? I find regular baked exorcist a little bland to my taste. :D
I highly recommend to braise them. Use a braising liquid based on a red wine to get some of the funk off them.

:)
Kmortis could you please explain cognitive dissonance in this context. I have only a basic knowledge of it and can't figure into this thread.
I am sure you are right, I don't mean to criticize or anything.
Ok, cognitive dissonance (CD) is simply the state created in one's mind when you're able to hold two (or more) diametrically opposed thoughts in you mind at the same time. For example, for a fundamentalist Christian to be a modern biologist, they would have to at the same time, believe that the world is 6000+/- years old and that evolution took place over millions of years (amongst other things).

For any modern day Catholic priest to still believe they have to believe many CD things. God is three and one. The wine is wine and blood; the bread is bread and body. The altar boy looks good in dem shorts. The Bible is the inspired Word of God....but written by man. Unnastand?

[BlackLotus]

Thanks Ethan, yes I think that is the mostly likely thing going on here. Thank you for your answer too Kmortis

[Personal Grudge]

Ok, cognitive dissonance (CD) is simply the state created in one's mind when you're able to hold two (or more) diametrically opposed thoughts in you mind at the same time. For example, for a fundamentalist Christian to be a modern biologist, they would have to at the same time, believe that the world is 6000+/- years old and that evolution took place over millions of years (amongst other things).

For any modern day Catholic priest to still believe they have to believe many CD things. God is three and one. The wine is wine and blood; the bread is bread and body. The altar boy looks good in dem shorts. The Bible is the inspired Word of God....but written by man. Unnastand?

I often find the state of cognitive dissonance to often occur for issues about which one is highly emotional.

My girlfriend is a classic example. A few years ago, our beloved cat of 16 years had to be euthanized after a long bout with diabetes. His kidneys failed, and we knew it was time. Later that same evening, when we were both distraught, we both clearly heard a meow while we were lying in bed. We both heard this meow to be the distinctive meow of our lost companion.

Now, while we are both atheists (probably less doubt on my part than on hers), she claims to this day that what we heard was our little boy saying goodbye to us. At the same time that she knows that there is likely no afterlife, she firmly believes that the spirit of our cat paid us a visit to say farewell. I find it more likely that we heard some sound that sounded very similar to the vocalizations of our lost cat.

So, in that area she definitely suffers from cognitive dissonance. On one hand, she believes there is no afterlife. On the other hand, she believes that the spirit of a dead cat visited us.

[BlackLotus]

A very clear explanation there.Thanks.

A sad little tale too.

[George152]

Note that the Transcendental Meditation organization, which has for years claimed to teach "Yogic Flying", furnished pictures of some of it's students apparently levitating to major media outlets.
These pictures were quickly proved to be fraudulent (by Randi, no less)....

The motive? As stated above...More students, more money.

"Yogic flying" is only attempted in a room with the floor covered in mattresses.
I'd be more impressed if they did it on a 12 inch RSJ 100 feet off the ground

[sadhatter]

Havn't seen this mentioned at length , but.

Lets assume the priest isn't lying. Well then he could easily be the subject of essentially a joke/prank.

If you had all people in on it, ( lets say a family, or one 'possessed' and a few friends ) and some basic knowledge of stage effects, you could easily pull off some crazy crap. Especially if your aiming it at someone who isn't going to look to hard into the issue.

[Minarvia]

Okay, my 2 cents. I've seen shows and read articles that claimed "possessed" people sometimes levitate. Supposedly that's the demon doing that. Why the heck would a demon do that? And even if he/she did, if that's all it can do that may be a little impressive but not much. It certainly does not fill me with the fear that it could level a city or anything like that.

Besides, all thru the history of "magic" levitation has been a trick. So I don't think it's a coincidence that "levitation" is claimed to take place in "possessions."

Now, a spinning head, that would be MORE impressive. :D

[catsmate1]

Fr. Lampert is one of only 12 officially trained and recognized exorcist priests in the US, and has been serving in this capacity for four years. He is also a full-time pastor of a large parish in Indianapolis.Does anyone know if this is correct? The only time I spoke with an exorcist, many years ago now, he told me that each diocese was required to have an appointed exorcist.

[DevilsAdvocate]

If not, why would he lie? He is suppose to be a man of the church, don't they have rules about lying? Or is his church just banana's anyway?I think we can go with :bananajump::Banane54::Banane10: :Banane16: :Banane21: :Banane41: :Banane59::Banane45::Banane13::Banane27:

Hippie UFO exorcizing bananas, that is. (or are those exorcising bananas?)

Here is his church: http://www.logoschristian.org/index.html#hippie

[DevilsAdvocate]

Hee hee hee.

Pastor Chris Ward Challenges "Prophet" YahWeh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awgpcaEUvN0)

Prophet Yahweh, you are a blasphemer and a false prophet and you are coming down. I challenge you to meet with me. You call out your UFOs in the name of Yahweh, and I will cast them out the in the name of Jesus. Because when Jesus died on the cross, father God gave him all authority and there is no name above the name Jesus Christ.

You remember Prophet Yahweh, right? That was the guy that was going to win the Million Dollar Challenge by making a UFO appear at TAM--until he added the requirement that he be allowed to bring his own armed security force.

This guy is a hoot. :D

[PixyMisa]

Thanks Grayman for posting that.

I still cannot understand how someone working for a main stream religion can stand there and lie through his teeth.
Well, that's what they do.

Either they believe it - and there's no evidence to support such a belief, so they're deluded - or they don't believe it, and they're lying.

Somehow I still don't feel we've broken this properly, other than said "These people talk rubbish"
"Pics or it didn't happen."

[DevilsAdvocate]

Pastor Ward (who is apparently a school teacher and just does the pastoring and talk show circuit on the side) also seems to have a penchant for acquiring degrees from “unaccredited” and “distance learning” schools that appear to at least border on being diploma mills. I could be mistaken, but the schools that he has attended, and claims t have attended, strikes me as a bit fishy.

His website says that “he has attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) on a grant from the National Science Foundation, in Computer Equity”. Maybe so, but I couldn’t find his name on the National Science Foundation’s list of grant awardees (although the database only has complete records since 1989).

His website says that “he is currently dual enrolled at Harvard Graduate School of Education and Nova Southeartern University for a Doctorate (Ed.D) in Instructional Technology and Distance Education”. Sounds like a weird mix.

Anyone want to call Harvard and verify his enrollment?

Verifying Degrees
The University Alumni Records Office can verify most degrees, including honorary degrees, and university attendance: 617-495-2371. The registrar’s offices may also be able to confirm degrees and university attendance. There is no central registrar’s office for the entire university. Student privacy laws also pertain to some alumni records. Because students and alumni can request that information related to their university attendance not be released, it may not be possible for someone at the university to verify attendance, divulge information about a degree, or share other information about someone who may have attended Harvard University.