Will Israel eventually become an Apartheid state?

[Thunder]

Will Israel eventually become an Apartheid state, where non-Jews have less political rights than Jews? Where Arabs can not run for the Knesset..or can only have a limited number of members? Where the vote of a non-Jew is equal to 1/3rd the vote of a Jew?

[Thunder]

I could see a situation in 25 years or so, where if a Palestinian state has not been established, Israel would annex the major settlement blocks, and perhaps even limit some of the political rights of non-Jews in Israel.

Perhaps limit the number of non-Jews who can serve in the Knesset, or even limit the value of a non-Jewish vote to 2/3rds or 1/3rd of a Jewish vote.

This is why a Palestinian state is sooo very important. It would save Israel from going down the road of Apartheid.

[Mikemcc]

Wrong tense, they already are there with Palestinians herded into ghettos, denied water, and generally treated as dirt.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I chose the third option, and I think that's already the state. Checkpoints? The wall? Bulldozing houses? There are already two conditions of civil rights.

[Thunder]

this poll is about ALL Arabs and other non-Jews under Israeli control...not just Palestinians in the West bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

[bigjelmapro]

Yay, another soviet propaganda thread. Nice hidden corner of abject ignorance you got going here Parky

[Beanbag]

Israel was formed By the Jews, For the Jews, and exists ONLY for the Jews. By fact, it already IS an apartheid state. Why ANYONE who isn't a Jew would go there and be surprised that they aren't treated as an equal amazes me.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong: I'm just saying that's the way it IS.

Religion is NOT an inclusive institution -- it serves to sort out and segregate people by belief. Always has, always will be. It taps into the basic pack instinct buried deep in the lizard brain that says "you don't look like us, you don't act like us, you don't believe like us; therefore, we may enslave you and/or use you as food."

Beanbag

[DC]

Will Israel eventually become an Apartheid state?

I hope not.

[Beanbag]

This is why a Palestinian state is sooo very important. It would save Israel from going down the road of Apartheid.
Why? Do you think it (the Palestinian state) would be any less apartheid than Israel is now?
(Yes, this is a serious question).

Beanbag

[Darth Rotor]

Israel was formed By the Jews, For the Jews, and exists ONLY for the Jews. By fact, it already IS an apartheid state. Why ANYONE who isn't a Jew would go there and be surprised that they aren't treated as an equal amazes me.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong: I'm just saying that's the way it IS.

Religion is NOT an inclusive institution -- it serves to sort out and segregate people by belief. Always has, always will be. It taps into the basic pack instinct buried deep in the lizard brain that says "you don't look like us, you don't act like us, you don't believe like us; therefore, we may enslave you and/or use you as food."

Beanbag
That may be, but is Palestinian tenderloin kosher?

[bigjelmapro]

Glad to see most of the guys on this thread are parroting exactly what the Soviets did in post-67. Perhaps we can stick to what, less than a dozen redundant threads?

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5846375&postcount=35

But hey, you guys can cower in this thread of pure fantasy if you wish....

[DC]

yeah when the commies have used it as propaganda 40-50 years ago it cannot be possibly be true today. :rolleyes:

[bigjelmapro]

Israel was formed By the Jews, For the Jews, and exists ONLY for the Jews. By fact, it already IS an apartheid state. Why ANYONE who isn't a Jew would go there and be surprised that they aren't treated as an equal amazes me.

Boink. How hard you hit your head? Pure fantasies.

[bigjelmapro]

yeah when the commies have used it as propaganda 40-50 years ago it cannot be possibly be true today. :rolleyes:
And how would disinformation that was pure fantasies 40-50 years ago suddenly be true today? Great logic.

[DC]

And how would disinformation that was pure fantasies 40-50 years ago suddenly be true today? Great logic.

well to many people it doesnt look like pure fantasy.
some reasons have been given in this thread.

doesnt mean we have to agree with it, but calling it pure fantasy?

for my taste its not yet as worse it deserve to be called Apartheid.

but as a polemicist myself, i can understand it somehow and would not call it pure fantasy. the state today, not what the commies claimed.

[bigjelmapro]

So 'to many people', that's the defense. That's how disinformation usually works since it reaches 'many people'. No justification for the term being attached to Israel. This has been discussed endlessly, yet it crops up without justification. All that's new are the numerous threads that state the same thing once the previous threads receive rebuttals stating the contrary.

Regardless, as the Russians used it against Israel as a means to vilify Israel and Western countries that supported Israel, as the PLO and other groups used it in the '70's till today, the leftists and the libs use it today.

[DC]

So 'to many people', that's the defense. That's how disinformation usually works since it reaches 'many people'. No justification for the term being attached to Israel. This has been discussed endlessly, yet it crops up without justification. All that's new are the numerous threads that state the same thing once the previous threads receive rebuttals stating the contrary.

Regardless, as the Russians used it against Israel as a means to vilify Israel and Western countries that supported Israel, as the PLO and other groups used it in the '70's till today, the leftists and the libs use it today.

the Nazis used propaganda against the Commies. does that mean the USA was wrong when they used propaganda against communism?

[Thunder]

the Nazis used propaganda against the Commies. does that mean the USA was wrong when they used propaganda against communism?

if the USA was right...and the USSR was wrong...than we should not have had to lie..to defeat them.

[Pardalis]

One No option, and three Yes options?

Come on Parky, at least try to make it less obvious.

[Undesired Walrus]

Why USA politics?

[bigjelmapro]

the Nazis used propaganda against the Commies. does that mean the USA was wrong when they used propaganda against communism?
Who is talking about whether propaganda is wrong or right? The issue here, past the absolutist rhetoric, is that the Soviets used the propaganda ploys that the leftists and their associated NGO's are using today much for the same reasons.

The allegation of apartheid against Israel, as the many threads on this forum show, is that they don't stand up to critical examination to the contrary. This only goes to show that as propaganda goes, its merely used as an attack without justification as a means to vilify and to isolate those attacked. Nothing much more to it.

[Skeptic]

It's the villifaction meme du jour.

[Thunder]

if Israel didn't expect such special treatment and a positive double-standard, they wouldn't be treated differently.

[Cain]

Delegations from South Africa have visited. They do not have kind words for Israel, but what do they know Apartheid?

[Beanbag]

Boink. How hard you hit your head? Pure fantasies.
It's a country built around a single religion. Any "Jew" -- determined by an official set of standards for Jewishness -- can arrive and declare themselves a citizen, and be received with open arms. Me? Not jewish, would be relegated to the visa line for second-hand status.

Sounds like somebody gets special considerations to me.

Doesn't matter to me, really. It's just like my saying the sun will come up some time in the next 24 hours. That's just the way it is. That is how the situation exists in Israel today. Their country, their rules. Deal with it.

Beanbag

[bigjelmapro]

I live in Israel, have been for the better part of the decade. There's no 2nd class status for anybody living within Israel, never was, never will be. The concept of 'right of return'/repatriation is not restricted to Israel and is not indicative of anything near the apartheid allegation.

So you can continue with this pleasant allegories and this apartheid allegation. Simply doesn't hold water.

And I do enjoy someone telling me how Israel is when I'm living here. At least I've been to Texas :D

[JihadJane]

I live in Israel, have been for the better part of the decade. There's no 2nd class status for anybody living within Israel, never was, never will be. The concept of 'right of return'/repatriation is not restricted to Israel and is not indicative of anything near the apartheid allegation.

So you can continue with this pleasant allegories and this apartheid allegation. Simply doesn't hold water.

And I do enjoy someone telling me how Israel is when I'm living here. At least I've been to Texas :D

Have you lived in/been to Gaza?

[Thunder]

I live in Israel, have been for the better part of the decade. There's no 2nd class status for anybody living within Israel, never was, never will be.

great. its good to know that Arabs are eligible for all the rights and privelages that Jews have. there is no discrimination in housing, education, gov. loans, etc.

wonderful.

:mad:

[Safe-Keeper]

One No option, and three Yes options?

Come on Parky, at least try to make it less obvious. Where's the "On Planet X, Israel is a tiny backwater desert nation the size of a Norwegian county, of interest only to religious zealots" option?

[The Fool]

great. its good to know that Arabs are eligible for all the rights and privelages that Jews have. there is no discrimination in housing, education, gov. loans, etc.

wonderful.

:mad:

If you remember Bigjel was one of the deniers that we stepped through stage by stage the discriminatory practices....I guess that he believes that enough time has elapsed from his last failure that he can return to chanting denials again.

some people are able to shut out the outside world and ignore everything that doesn't reinforce thier worldview...its amazing. I doubt if there is any point in leading him through the discriminatory practices yet again. The Israeli government even acknowledges them....but not our resident deniers...they are made of sterner stuff :)

[Thunder]

i firmly believe that as the years go by, and as the Palestinian population increases, the Israeli Jewish population will become more and more extremist, and will indeed start passing laws that slowly but surely, restrict the political rights of non-Jewish citizens.

but I hope I am very wrong.

this is why democracy and religious nation-states are so VERY incompatible. Just like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, ....

[The Fool]

i firmly believe that as the years go by, and as the Palestinian population increases, the Israeli Jewish population will become more and more extremist, and will indeed start passing laws that slowly but surely, restrict the political rights of non-Jewish citizens.

but I hope I am very wrong.

this is why democracy and religious nation-states are so VERY incompatible. Just like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, ....
The demographics issue of Arab population is a bit of a timebomb. The far right in Israel like to refer to the Arab portion of thier fellow Israelis as the "Arab problem". Thats a worry as these far right wackjobs appear to be gaining influence, some of them are even ministers as Netanyahu takes them on board to keep likud in power.

[bigjelmapro]

Have you lived in/been to Gaza?
I've been on a number of occasions. It would come as a surpise to you, but Israelis visited Gaza, as they once did Jericho and Hebron, etc. prior to the first intifada (the 1986-87 one) when all things changed. And no, not only the Jewish parts...

Any more misconceptions to clear up?

[bigjelmapro]

i firmly believe that as the years go by, and as the Palestinian population increases, the Israeli Jewish population will become more and more extremist, and will indeed start passing laws that slowly but surely, restrict the political rights of non-Jewish citizens.

As you firmly believe in fantasy. Nothing unusual. Just as you tried to peddle that Haaretz article about deportations. Failed there too.


this is why democracy and religious nation-states are so VERY incompatible. Just like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, ....
Typical guilt by association tripe. Also been peddled on all the threads you started and all abandoned when forced to explain yourself.

See you on the next one :D

[Thunder]

The demographics issue of Arab population is a bit of a timebomb. The far right in Israel like to refer to the Arab portion of thier fellow Israelis as the "Arab problem".

eventually, some will call for a "Final Solution", to the "Arab problem".

hell, some have already been calling for just that.

[Darth Rotor]

eventually, some will call for a "Final Solution", to the "Arab problem".

hell, some have already been calling for just that.

Who are these "some," and how has the response to this call been?

[Thunder]

well, the more popular "final solution", is to pay Arabs to leave Israel. but eventually they will surely suggest that it must be done by force....perhaps during the next Arab-Israeli war.

[bigjelmapro]

Who are these "some," and how has the response to this call been?
Why are you even fanning the flames here?

[Thunder]

I have heard many extremist Jews call for the govt. to pay Arabs to leave Israel and the WB. I have heard even more extremists call for the WB to be annexed and Palestinians be given voting rights in Jordan...not Israel.

[JihadJane]

I've been on a number of occasions. It would come as a surpise to you, but Israelis visited Gaza, as they once did Jericho and Hebron, etc. prior to the first intifada (the 1986-87 one) when all things changed. And no, not only the Jewish parts...

Any more misconceptions to clear up?

Thanks for your answer.

What misconceptions are you referring to?

[Darth Rotor]

Why are you even fanning the flames here?
It is sometimes amusing to highlight the vagueness of the sources of these positions and utterances that parky uses as a point of departure.

DR

[Skeptic]

Some Americans, White ones, call for the death of all Blacks. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A KKK COUNTRY?

Some Americans, Black ones, call for the death of all Whites. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A PLACE WHERE ALL WHITES HAVE BEEN MURDERED?

Some Americans, in fact quite a few, believe the second coming is at hand. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A MEDIEVAL THEOCRACY?

Etc., etc., etc.

I might as well ask WILL RANDI EVENTUALLY BECOME A MASS MURDERER? Hey, he hates psychics, so maybe he will go insane and kill them all one day?

All of what I said above is possible. Everything's possible. But still, it shows something about what I think about the USA or Randi if I started such threads in earnest, despite the fact that I am "officially" only asking.

[Thunder]

um...whats with all the bold lettering? calm down guy.

[Pardalis]

So Parky, do you think it's a fair and balanced poll to have three "yes" options, and only one "no", and no "planet x"?

[Thunder]

So Parky, do you think it's a fair and balanced poll to have three "yes" options, and only one "no", and no "planet x"?

please feel free to address any concerns/complaints with the thread format, to Forum Managemant.

[Pardalis]

I'm sorry, but you're not forum management.

You created the poll, so it's not a forum management issue.

[The Fool]

Any more misconceptions to clear up?

just one. What is your suggested solution to "the arab problem" or is that a too hard question and requires you to look the other way?

[The Fool]

Some Americans, White ones, call for the death of all Blacks. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A KKK COUNTRY?

Some Americans, Black ones, call for the death of all Whites. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A PLACE WHERE ALL WHITES HAVE BEEN MURDERED?

Some Americans, in fact quite a few, believe the second coming is at hand. Therefore, WILL AMERICA EVENTUALLY BECOME A MEDIEVAL THEOCRACY?

Etc., etc., etc.

I might as well ask WILL RANDI EVENTUALLY BECOME A MASS MURDERER? Hey, he hates psychics, so maybe he will go insane and kill them all one day?

All of what I said above is possible. Everything's possible. But still, it shows something about what I think about the USA or Randi if I started such threads in earnest, despite the fact that I am "officially" only asking.

I invite you as well...
what is your preferred solution to "the arab problem"?

[Bill Thompson]

Will Israel eventually become an Apartheid state, where non-Jews have less political rights than Jews? Where Arabs can not run for the Knesset..or can only have a limited number of members? Where the vote of a non-Jew is equal to 1/3rd the vote of a Jew?

Is The United States not an Apartheid state, where Native Americans lack the rights to the land that their families had had for countless hundreds of thousands of years?

[bigjelmapro]

At this point he'll likely create another apartheid-esk thread....no worries.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I see Parky has changed his name.

But absolutely nothing else.

[The Fool]

At this point he'll likely create another apartheid-esk thread....no worries.
trying to involve you in the thread but the question seems to be something you would rather not see..
again..

What is your preferred solution to "the arab problem"?

seems you guys prefer to whine about Parky..

[bigjelmapro]

I see Parky has changed his name.

But absolutely nothing else.
Did you expect anything else?

[Skeptic]

Not really, no.

[Thunder]

Israel will become an Apartheid state. The extent of this, depends on how extreme Israeli Jews become.

[WildCat]

Israel will become an Apartheid state. The extent of this, depends on how extreme Israeli Jews become.
From your lips to God's ear, I'm sure.

[Thunder]

From your lips to God's ear, I'm sure.

time shall tell, dear Wildcat.

[bigjelmapro]

Exit stage right Parky :)

[Skeptic]

Israel will become an Apartheid state.Well, that would certainly make it blend in better with the neighbors. This "democracy" and "human rights" thing is really an eyesore. Israel is commonly rated the only "free" country in the middle east (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=1) -- the rest range from "partially free" (four or five others) to "not free" (the other 15-20 mideastern nations).

I mean, just look at the map they have. Is it nice of Israel to stand out in "free" green, alone, ruining the continuous, unbroken swath of "not free" purple? Year after year, too? Shame, shame.

[Thunder]

Well, that would certainly make it blend in better with the neighbors. This "democracy" and "human rights" thing is really an eyesore.

I know right? Its such a double-standard, expecting the Jewish State to respect human rights, freedom, democracy, and other nonsense. We should just let Israel do whatever it wants, and keep writing those yearly $2 billion checks.

[INRM]

I do believe Israel will eventually become an Apartheid state.

[Skeptic]

Er.... so?

[bigjelmapro]

So the gist of the arguments from those who support the notion of this OP is based purely on speculation equivalent to the ramblings of the religious fundamentalists in the ME that the Israel will soon disappear. Speculation, hype and fantasy, the concoction of the ill-informed and/or the far left. Same hypocrisy seen in the Obama effigy thread....

Comical.

[Thunder]

So the gist of the arguments from those who support the notion of this OP is based purely on speculation equivalent to the ramblings of the religious fundamentalists in the ME that the Israel will soon disappear. Speculation, hype and fantasy, the concoction of the ill-informed and/or the far left. Same hypocrisy seen in the Obama effigy thread....

Comical.

well, the fact is that the Israeli government is in total control of more than 50% of the West Bank. And they are in total control of the water and airspace of the areas controlled by the PA. Decisions made are done by the Israeli Knesset, not the Palestinian Parliament..and Palestinians have no right to vote for these people.

So, the Palestinian people have no right to vote for or against the people who truly govern their lives. That my friends, is Apartheid.

Israel should either give the Palestinians the right to vote in Israeli elections, or end all Israeli control over every single Palestinian in the West Bank, including the air they breath, the water they drink, and the land they walk on and farm. Anything else is rule without representation..and that is Apartheid.

[bigjelmapro]

Wrong again on your fantasy apartheid claim. Wow, now you're claiming that Israel controls the air Palestinian breath in the WB? How is that controlled I might ask?

And pertaining to water management and airspace, from one of your abandoned threads. So I'll repeat:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5377342&postcount=177

What's the drivel about the water management of the eastern mountain aquifer? Its supplied water to what was the mandate of Palestine (minus Transjordan) in pre-mandate times to post mandate times, why should it change now? Here again, water management is translated into 'sovereignty' and 'control', just as the failed argument of controlling airspace. The PA don't even have a water management division that I know of and don't do anything regarding the 250+ illegal wells within the WB in the north and center that take away water from south for agriculture.


You keep repeating the same drivel in a number of threads. I'm going to keep calling you on this pure, speculative BS in every thread you do this.

[Thunder]

Wrong again on your fantasy apartheid claim. Wow, now you're claiming that Israel controls the air Palestinian breath in the WB? How is that controlled I might ask?

who has ultimate control over the West Bank airspace?

who has ultimate controls over the aquifers in the West Bank?

the answer? Israel.

and yet, Palestinians have no ability to pick the people who mahe these decisions. laws put in place that govern their lands, water, and air, without any right to pick the politicians who make these laws.

that...is Apartheid.

Israel needs to either completely end their control of the West Bank, or give the Palestinians the right to vote in Israeli elections. anything else is Apartheid.

[bigjelmapro]

who has ultimate control over the West Bank airspace?

who has ultimate controls over the aquifers in the West Bank?

the answer? Israel.

and yet, Palestinians have no ability to pick the people who mahe these decisions. laws put in place that govern their lands, water, and air, without any right to pick the politicians who make these laws.

that...is Apartheid.

Israel needs to either completely end their control of the West Bank, or give the Palestinians the right to vote in Israeli elections. anything else is Apartheid.
Answering your own thick-minded questions I see again and once again, making the same claims which have also been answered in the thread posted.

Airspace would be handed over once an agreement is reached. Camp David and the Clinton parameters, of which you quoted even, supports this.

The Eastern mountain aquifier had been used since the Palestine mandate and before to provide water for the entire area, of which the majority of this specific aquifier goes to the Palestinians in the WB. The Palestinian authority has been tasked in the past and utterly failed to get rid of the illegal wells being dug in the Northern WB that interfere with Palestinian farming in the South. This implies that they have a poor track record when it comes to water management. Since these aquifiers are connected to eachother it is vital for Israel to manage this better. The flip side would be Syria which shows how failed water management if left untreated, has dire consequences.

Good source about the water issues: Israel-Palestine Water Issues (http://mapsomething.com/demo/waterusage/hydrology.php)

Again, as in your other threads, you put the cart in front of the horse. You expect handing over authority to a government that is belligerent to Israel. No agreements, no treaties required. As if unilateral actions have worked marvelously in the past.

[The Fool]

Again, as in your other threads, you put the cart in front of the horse. You expect handing over authority to a government that is belligerent to Israel. No agreements, no treaties required. As if unilateral actions have worked marvelously in the past.
you make things up with such ease.
Nobody is expecting anything of the sort. What is expected is that sovereign nations control the water resources within thier own borders. I'm sure you would not tolerate any other nation controllong the water resources of Israel so guess what....Palestinians will likely expect the same. I doubt if you, as an extremist dedicated to the prevention of any Palestinian state, will be willing to relinquish any control of its water to any palestinian state.....My guess is that you would quite happily expect your supposedly sovereign neighbor to allow you to control its water.

anyway, you will ignore this issue and simply continue to chant slogans.....which is your apparent singular methodology.


anyway....welcome to the new world where palestinians will rule in their own nation....and you won't be running things...The whole world seems to be awakening to this inevitability, good luck with ignoring what is happening around you.

[bigjelmapro]

So nothing? Just want to be the last one posting since TF still thinks I look at his trolling posts....that is, if he did respond to me. Regardless, same end result...crickets

[Thunder]

The fact remains, that for the most part, Israel still controls the entire West Bank. And Arab residents of the WB have no right to vote in Israeli elections. They haven't even been given the option to vote in Israeli election, as their brothers in the areas annexed by Israel in 1967 were.

this is Apartheid.

[The Fool]

So nothing? Just want to be the last one posting since TF still thinks I look at his trolling posts....that is, if he did respond to me. Regardless, same end result...crickets
Lol....you posted that little reply just in case I did respond to you? who are you kidding son :) you read my posts, you reply to them....its just that now you proclaim you are "ignoring me" because its apparently easier on your self esteem than facing the fact that you can't really come up with plausable answers.

oh well, I can't give you the courage you need to face questions...maybe its best you do stick to slogan chanting and whining about parky.

[bigjelmapro]

The fact remains, that for the most part, Israel still controls the entire West Bank. And Arab residents of the WB have no right to vote in Israeli elections. They haven't even been given the option to vote in Israeli election, as their brothers in the areas annexed by Israel in 1967 were.

this is Apartheid.
You can keep pedaling this, I dare say, extreme left interpretation of what constitutes apartheid (picked up from the post-67 Soviet disinformation ploy), even if it doesn't adhere to the definition of apartheid.

The fact of the matter is that the PA and Hamas adhere to the Khartoum accords and have perpetuated their belligerency towards Israel, and until this ceases and agreements are signed, as with Egypt and Jordan as examples, Israel is within its right to stay within key areas of the WB and retain its practice of retorsion against Gaza. Israel doesn't need to annex the WB to do so, doesn't need to give voting rights to a people who are by majority hostile towards Israel, and doesn't need to give one iota until this happens.

None of what you state constitutes apartheid, you can keep parroting the same drivel, but it won't stick. Good luck.

[DC]

You can keep pedaling this, I dare say, extreme left interpretation of what constitutes apartheid (picked up from the post-67 Soviet disinformation ploy), even if it doesn't adhere to the definition of apartheid.

The fact of the matter is that the PA and Hamas adhere to the Khartoum accords and have perpetuated their belligerency towards Israel, and until this ceases and agreements are signed, as with Egypt and Jordan as examples, Israel is within its right to stay within key areas of the WB and retain its practice of retorsion against Gaza. Israel doesn't need to annex the WB to do so, doesn't need to give voting rights to a people who are by majority hostile towards Israel, and doesn't need to give one iota until this happens.

None of what you state constitutes apartheid, you can keep parroting the same drivel, but it won't stick. Good luck.

so it is a kind of Apartheid but in your eyes it is justified.
im sure alot White people in SA saw it also as Justified.

[Thunder]

Israel is within its right to stay within key areas of the WB and retain its practice of retorsion against Gaza. Israel doesn't need to annex the WB to do so, doesn't need to give voting rights to a people who are by majority hostile towards Israel

translation? Apartheid is ok if Israel does it.

I think the Zulus were kinda hostile to the white South African regime, does that mean that denying them voting rights was ok?

Blacks were hostile to Jim Crow and the Dixicrats, does that mean Segregation and violation of black voting rights was ok?

The Jews were hostile to the Nazi regime. Does that mean the Nuremberg laws were ok?

[bigjelmapro]

so it is a kind of Apartheid but in your eyes it is justified.
im sure alot White people in SA saw it also as Justified.
:D This is amusing. Never said it was apartheid or justified. But thanks again for yet another useless addition.

[bigjelmapro]

translation? Apartheid is ok if Israel does it.
/drivel

Stop translating, you're doing a piss poor job at it and I can see your strawman collection is getting quite hefty. Should put it up on ebay and see what you might get for it.

So the mods happy with merging this with the nth other apartheid threads already going?

[Thunder]

:D This is amusing. Never said it was apartheid or justified. But thanks again for yet another useless addition.

then how would you explain this post?

"Israel doesn't need to annex the WB to do so, doesn't need to give voting rights to a people who are by majority hostile towards Israel"

German Jews were very against Hitler. Does that mean Germany was therefore correct to strip its Jews of voting rights?

You seem to be suggesting such.

[Skeptic]

It's interesting how, when it comes from the Israeli side, protecting one's population against constant terrorist attacks is an "apartheid wall", even if "apartheid" has to be tortured to mean something it never did to do so, but the PA's constant declarations (most recently in August 2009) that their goal is the elimination of Israel by stages, that they demand the Palestinian state be judenrein, etc., are excused or ignored.

Typical, I must say.

[Thunder]

It's interesting how, when it comes from the Israeli side, protecting one's population against constant terrorist attacks is an "apartheid wall"

Israelis called it the "Seperation Wall". That term is fine with me.

it is meant to seperate Jews from Arabs, and Palestinians from their land.

oh, and I think Jewish settlers should have the option of becoming Palestinians citizens, if they insist on staying. but if they don't want to become loyal citizens of Palestine, then they gots to go.

[bigjelmapro]

then how would you explain this post?

"Israel doesn't need to annex the WB to do so, doesn't need to give voting rights to a people who are by majority hostile towards Israel"

German Jews were very against Hitler. Does that mean Germany was therefore correct to strip its Jews of voting rights?

You seem to be suggesting such.
And you accuse others of excessive infractions of Godwin's law?

Israel took over the WB in post-'67 through a war, the PLO/Hamas/Fatah have retained a state of belligerecy towards Israel, signed no treaties ending said belligerency, and continues proxy warfare/terror against Israel. Provide some international laws, etc. to support the notion that a territory from whence war of annihilation, and lost, came from has any rights which you've failed and failed again to define as apartheid.

Oh, and yeah, there were no voting rights to begin with. So again, nth+1 failure of strawman. Add it to the pile.

So, run full speed into a wall much?

[bigjelmapro]

Israelis called it the "Seperation Wall". That term is fine with me.

it is meant to seperate Jews from Arabs, and Palestinians from their land.

oh, and I think Jewish settlers should have the option of becoming Palestinians citizens, if they insist on staying. but if they don't want to become loyal citizens of Palestine, then they gots to go.
Nope, security barrier. Its not meant to separate Jews from Arabs since apparently, on the Israeli side, Jews and Arabs seem to be still co-existing together. I know this because I live on the Israeli side. Its meants to prevent Palestinian terrorist factions from sending their brainwashed suicide jihadis across into Israel to blow up Israelis indiscriminately, as in all Israelis are targets, Jew, Muslim, Ba'ahi, Christian, atheist, brainless extreme leftist clowns (unforunately :( ) . Has it done its job? Why yes. Is it permanent, I hope not. Should it go down just to win yet another absolutist morality/ethical/etc argument? Hell no.

And let me just bold this so you can hang it up on your wall of shame and diamond cutting hypocrisy:

but if they don't want to become loyal citizens of Palestine, then they gots to go.

Golden.

[JihadJane]

Why doesn't this wall work both ways?

[bigjelmapro]

Why doesn't this wall work both ways?
How so? I hope, just hope, this isn't some half-baked attempt at equating, ie

IDF kills terrorist near Hebron (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=173965)

to

JPost: Suicide bomber explodes outside Netanya mall (http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/006166.shtml)

The latter of which the security barrier is supposed to prevent.

[Thunder]

Nope, security barrier. Its meants to prevent Palestinian terrorist factions from sending their brainwashed suicide jihadis across into Israel to blow up Israelis indiscriminately,

and to confiscate more Palestinian private property.

[Thunder]

And you accuse others of excessive infractions of Godwin's law?

um.......untrue. falsehood.

in other words....a lie.

[Skeptic]

bigjelmapro --

I suppose Parky is now in favor of expelling all Israeli Arabs who see themselves as Palestinians first, since they are not loyal citizens of Israel.

Oh, but what am I thinking? Only Jews can be expelled for disloyalty. Silly me.

[Thunder]

Oh, but what am I thinking? Only Jews can be expelled for disloyalty. Silly me.

:confused:

[bigjelmapro]

um.......untrue. falsehood.

in other words....a lie.
Stated the obvious. You can stomp your feet and scream lies all you want to. Enjoy the elevator music.

[bigjelmapro]

and to confiscate more Palestinian private property.
So ignoring the dozens of cases, several of which have been successful of changing the route is to conveniently not to be taken into consideration. And you're still ignoring how its attributed to saving Israeli lives. But I guess that's something you don't want.

Says the person that resides in a city on the land that was magically purchased by a handful of glass beads. ;)

[Thunder]

Says the person that resides in a city on the land that was magically purchased by a handful of glass beads. ;)

ah....the old "since you guys did it in 1654...we can do it in 1967" argument.

very clever.

you know, the USSR illegally annexed the Baltic states after WW2. I guess that means Israel can do it too.

Germany illegally annexed Austria and the Sudetenland. That makes it ok for the Jewish state.

[bigjelmapro]

Nope, just exposing your sheer hypocrisy. And enter more strawman fallacies.....

Still haven't answered to the legality of the British land reforms in the mid-1920's that allowed for private land ownership, to the advantage of the Arabs.

Still haven't to why one is required to give anything to a belligerent entity (a state if they ever choose to become one officially) unilaterally.

Still haven't answered the reason for the security barrier which has saved Israeli lives, regardless of background.

Still haven't answered that the route of said security barrier has been changed on numerous occasions to accomodate the Palestinians, meaning the Israeli legal system does work.

Still haven't answered the bit about handing sov over to the PA once an agreement is signed and a state of belligerency has ended.

There are a few to start, plenty more....