Dean Meltdown

[subgenius]

This one picture alone will cost him the nomination.

______________

"Rolling up his shirt sleeves and shrieking so loud that his voice cracked, a raging Dean rallied his supporters with forced optimism and a pugilistic tone that stood in contrast to the formal upbeat speeches by his opponents.
"I'll see you around the corner, around the block," Dean said, sounding like a bully taunting Kerry and Edwards, whom he'll face in the New Hampshire primary Tuesday.

"He's crazy," said Republican pollster Frank Luntz after watching Dean's bizarre performance. "This is everything that voters don't want to hear from him. He's just lost the Democratic nomination for president. He's too hot."
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/16225.htm

[HarryKeogh]

zieg heil

that picture and the soundbite. sounded like a lunatic or a losing football coach at halftime in the locker room.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by subgenius
This one picture alone will cost him the nomination.

We can but hope. I've been watching Dean with dread as he moved to front-runner status. Yes, we need firebrands to call Bush on the carpet for the truly lousy job he has done, but you can't have a hothead and an extremist as a candidate, because they can't win. I'm glad this happened sooner rather than later. Now maybe the Dems will nominate a candidate who can get us out from under the worst president since, well, Reagan.

[Tmy]

More Dean character asassination! The guy gets excited and tries to rally his supporters and it gets thrown in his face. Sure he kinda sounds like a pro wrestler, big deal. Would you rather have a stick in the mud robot like Gepart?

I think its unfair how the media targets Dean. Everything he does gets blown out of proportion in an attempt to prove hes an unstable maniac. Reminds of how Dan Quayle was portrayed as being dumb at every turn.

[Tony]

Is it just me, or was his meltdown somewhat reminiscent of the Wellstone "memorial"?

[aerocontrols]

Freeze-frame photos taken of someone while they are speaking are cheap shots.

Dean hurt himself by losing it, and the end of his speech last night was ridiculous, but you can find photos of anyone who speaks publicly that would 'lose' them the election.


In the words of one man: I have not yet begun to YEAARRGh...

[diddidit]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
In the words of one man: I have not yet begun to YEAARRGh...

And then, to the jubilation of his supporters, he ripped another goat in half with his bare hands:

http://www.ruralgoods.com/dean_goat_z_001.jpg

did

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tmy
More Dean character asassination! The guy gets excited and tries to rally his supporters and it gets thrown in his face. Sure he kinda sounds like a pro wrestler, big deal. Would you rather have a stick in the mud robot like Gepart?

I think its unfair how the media targets Dean. Everything he does gets blown out of proportion in an attempt to prove hes an unstable maniac. Reminds of how Dan Quayle was portrayed as being dumb at every turn. I'm usually sympathetic to victims of character assissination, but this was Dean's own fault. People don't want a president who flies off the handle. It's just not acceptable for someone in that particular position of responsibility. I watched Dean last night with a combination of revulsion and wonder -- wonder at what the hell he thought he was doing. Who wants to rally around a red-face, ranting anger-boy who spouts off a list of states he's going to win 3 times in a 10 minute speech. Bizarro self-emolation.

[Tmy]

Those pick were chosen on purpose. Im suprised they didnt draw in little hitler mustaches while they were at it.

If Dean was a republican we'd be hearing about how the "liberal media" is being unfair to him.

[Ignatius]

I never really bought into the idea that Dean was some out of control hothead. I dismissed it as simplistic talk show sound bytes. I figured that he was just trying to be the most energetic and outspoken canidated during the primary since that is what put him ahead in the first place. It would have been forgotten about in six months when Dean inevitably would be painting himself as a centrist (which he is) for the general election. I was pleasantly surprized that he came in third last night, though.

Aerocontrols is certainly right about the picture, but the end of that speech? Egads, man! It sounded like the war cry of a cartoon supervillian.

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by Ignatius
Aerocontrols is certainly right about the picture, but the end of that speech? Egads, man! It sounded like the war cry of a cartoon supervillian. "And I would have won Iowa too, if not for you meddling kids!"

"And then, Kerry, THE WORLD!"

[hgc]

Originally posted by Tmy
Those pick were chosen on purpose. Im suprised they didnt draw in little hitler mustaches while they were at it.

If Dean was a republican we'd be hearing about how the "liberal media" is being unfair to him. Did you witness the speech? No picture can capture the awful quality of his performance, and he's lucky about that.

[subgenius]

I would vote for Dean if nominated.

Having said that, I disagree that the picture misrepresents what took place that night, visually, verbally or emotionally.

Many of us are "mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore," but that isn't how you necessarily win a nomination or election. Maybe that's not right, but that is the way it is. The election will not be decided by the "true believers" on either side. The swing vote has all the power.
Not to derail my own thread but that is why a third party vote, in the national election, is a vote against the lesser of two evils. Maybe that's not right either, but that's the way it is.
Dean shot himself in the foot.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by hgc
Did you witness the speech? No picture can capture the awful quality of his performance, and he's lucky about that.
I agree the video is even worse than any of the "freeze frames".
You can be sure this will be repeated endlessly, and he will also become the butt of many jokes. Wanna bet SNL leads the next show with it?
He will not be able to stay on message for all the defending he will have to do of it.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Tony
Is it just me, or was his meltdown somewhat reminiscent of the Wellstone "memorial"?

You mean the 3 hour memorial with 10 minutes of partisan politics....and that 10 minutes gets the airplay in the national news?

I agree with you, Tony. It might be very much like Paul Wellstone's memorial.

I only heard Dean's speech on the radio, it did sound a bit cartoonish. I think seeing it on TV might have given me a different impression.

The press has picked the characterization of Dean for the rest of the campaign. He's a "maniac", "unstable", "angry", etc.... The sad part is he's playing into that role.

[specious_reasons]

Ironically, that goat-ripping picture makes me want to vote for Dean......

[hgc]

Originally posted by specious_reasons
...

The press has picked the characterization of Dean for the rest of the campaign. He's a "maniac", "unstable", "angry", etc.... The sad part is he's playing into that role. Once again, the press is not as responsible for Dean's image as he is. Do you think he played into something that had been invented for him, or that the press had good reason already to portray him as a hothead?

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by hgc
Once again, the press is not as responsible for Dean's image as he is. Do you think he played into something that had been invented for him, or that the press had good reason already to portray him as a hothead?

I'm just expecting Dean to be Gored. Even if he's not acting like a hothead, the press will gladly fit the facts to the image. It makes "good" news that way.

I didn't see the speech on TV, I might be more forgiving of his representation in the press were that the case.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Tony
Is it just me, or was his meltdown somewhat reminiscent of the Wellstone "memorial"? You've obviously fallen for the conservative media's propaganda about that event. I'm guessing you saw soundbites on Faux News and drew your conclusions directly from Hannity.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by subgenius
Having said that, I disagree that the picture misrepresents what took place that night, visually, verbally or emotionally.

I just want to say that I'm not saying that this particular picture misrepresents anything. I just object generally to the idea that snapshots of anyone can be used to demonstrate any sort of point.

Even when they are representative, it's impossible to tell unless you have the accompanying video.

[SRW]

Originally posted by specious_reasons


I'm just expecting Dean to be Gored. Even if he's not acting like a hothead, the press will gladly fit the facts to the image. It makes "good" news that way.

I didn't see the speech on TV, I might be more forgiving of his representation in the press were that the case.

I tuned into the comments made by the round table at MSnbc, CNN and FOX, but missed the speech its self. What astounded me what that everyone, democrat, republican and independent were dumbfounded by the speech. Even the people who I would have expected to support Dean were shocked. This was not a media skewering it was all Dean.

I saw a replay of it latter that night and my first though was, John Stuart is going to have a field day Tuesday night.

What do you want? Him to call the media and let them know he is going to act like an ass so please turn off the cameras.

[Cain]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


I just want to say that I'm not saying that this particular picture misrepresents anything. I just object generally to the idea that snapshots of anyone can be used to demonstrate any sort of point.

Even when they are representative, it's impossible to tell unless you have the accompanying video.

Well, it goes both ways. Some photographs, though they only capture a brief moment of time, probe us to look deeper into an event or a person's character. Other times they can be completely manipulative.

I looked over a few articles and the papers described Dean as "exuberant". I had to flip through a number of pictures to find this one:

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040120/i/r796755561.jpg

In all the others he was smiling or rolling up his sleeves or pumping a fist at the end of his rolled up sleeve while wearing a smile.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by SRW


What do you want? Him to call the media and let them know he is going to act like an ass so please turn off the cameras.

I'd like better news. Even NPR, which I donate to, covers this election like it's a horse race, and issues are less important than personality.

I'm perfectly fine with Dean acting like ass and getting called for it. I'm just suspicious of the news coverage, and that single picture

I like your Daily Show comment.... I think tonight would be a good night to remember to watch the show... :)

[SRW]

Originally posted by specious_reasons


I'd like better news. Even NPR, which I donate to, covers this election like it's a horse race, and issues are less important than personality.

I'm perfectly fine with Dean acting like ass and getting called for it. I'm just suspicious of the news coverage, and that single picture

I like your Daily Show comment.... I think tonight would be a good night to remember to watch the show... :)


The Daily show should be great, with both the Dean speech and the State of the Union tonight.

Unfortunately, I get the impression that "better news" gets less viewers than personal actions.

Actually that picture would not be a big deal if it were not for the video that it came from.

[Suddenly]

I don't think any picture is going to do Dean .001% of the harm that the audio will do.

I just heard it for the first time, and in my learned and humble opinion he sounds like a complete idiot.

You can do a lot of things and still end up in the White House, Clinton is pretty good proof of that. However...

One thing you cannot do is sound like, and I am going to use a very technical term here, a dork.

Dean sounds like a dork, like he is trying to be inspiring and can't pull it off. Not good. May be the only cardinal sin left in politics, do not let yourself look unpresidential. This is like Dukakis on that tank, only 10 times worse...

I'd say he's dead now. The body hasn't stopped moving, but this speech is chilling to anyone not solidly in Dean's corner, and there are enough of them out there that it is going to hurt. It is going to become clear that this audio snippet is going to be the 2004 Republican Theme Song if Dean is nominated, and I still harbor some faith that the Democratic party is not that stupid.

The thing that sticks in my (admittedly warped) mind after hearing the audio...

North Dakota?

[Snide]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
You've obviously fallen for the conservative media's propaganda about that event. I'm guessing you saw soundbites on Faux News and drew your conclusions directly from Hannity. Not a bad guess, even if not entirely how he got his "news."

It was really just bad judgment from one guy who was speaking from the heart, without thinking about the repercussions.

Oh the irony... Republicans using the event to criticize the partisanship of it.

That media is sooooo liberal!! ;)

[VicDaring]

I might be the only person in the country to say this, but my take is, "Go Howard!"

After the event, talking to AP, he said you've got to have a little fun with this process.

The crowd enjoyed it, Dean enjoyed, Harkin seemed to enjoy it, I really don't see the harm.

If Dean keeps his lead in NH, then does okay in NC, NM, etc., this will be yesterday's news pretty quickly.

PS: Of course, my phone rang last night while Dean was on stage and a friend asked, "What's the deal with your boy Dean? What is he, a pro wrestler?"

Edited to change Minnesota to New Mexico.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Snide
It was really just bad judgment from one guy who was speaking from the heart, without thinking about the repercussions.That'd be, and is, my default position on the matter. Sad that we've most of us become so cynical that we can not allow a person their humanity. Especially in a campaign that early on had the appearance of safe-playing.

BBC World News (starting at 5am GMT) led with the Dean sound bite, which is where I first heard it. (I've yet to see the film.) It struck me, too, as over the top. But it's one component of the person, to be weighed along with the others.

So, will it be a bump on the road? Will it be a hand his opponents overplay? Will it be some other hackneyed cliche?

To be, as they say, continued...

[corplinx]

Everyone is just trying to lump on Dean because he is such a "straight talker". You people can't handle someone who speaks the plain truth like Dean.

[hgc]

Originally posted by corplinx
Everyone is just trying to lump on Dean because he is such a "straight talker". You people can't handle someone who speaks the plain truth like Dean. I, for one, am a Democrat trying to pick a candidate, and I haven't heard anything from Dean that's more straight-talkin' than anyone else.

This has been discussed in these parts before, and I'll say it again. Image matters. And rightfully so. Not only for electability, but also for presidentiality. If I'm going to vote for a candidate based on his policies, then I want him to have all the rest it takes to be successful at implementing it, including the right personality to command the nation's attention. I also want a Democrat that can get enough people on his side so that Bush will be beaten. Dean just ain't that guy. He's frankly too weird, and last night was a good illustration of that.

I'm just glad it happened now, instead of later in the year, when he might have been closer to the nomination.

By the way, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Iowa caucus goers apparently made that decision before Dean's freak-out last night.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by corplinx
Everyone is just trying to lump on Dean because he is such a "straight talker". You people can't handle someone who speaks the plain truth like Dean.
As hgc so succinctly points out no one is dumping on him for his talk. And frankly no one (not me anyway) is dumping on him at all. The issue is whether the little performance has affected his chances.
Speaking the plain truth, I don't see anyone here having a problem with.
A tirade, a tantrum, people are rightfully concerned about.
Even if one has no problem with it, there is still the realistic concern about electability.
Your analysis, with all due respect, is an over-simplification, and a general unfounded accusation on everyone here. "You people"?

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Suddenly
The thing that sticks in my (admittedly warped) mind after hearing the audio...

North Dakota? Come on! Their caucus is February 3rd! It's timely!

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by hgc
I, for one, am a Democrat trying to pick a candidate,

I feel your pain.

I also want a Democrat that can get enough people on his side so that Bush will be beaten.
Sorry, that Democrat won't be running. She's hunkering down till '08. She's written off the Democratic party already. She's gonna let it twist in the wind.

Dean just ain't that guy. He's frankly too weird, and last night was a good illustration of that.
The way he gleefully pointed to dead american troops to bolster his campaign was even more repugnant. The other Dems may feel that way too, but at least they have the sense to keep their mouths shut.

Dean is too much of an a-hole to be electable. I too hope the Dems have seen that and will put someone less extreme forward for the nomination. I don't think ANY of the current batch of Dems can unseat Bush, but who knows, Bush might step on his own crank sometime before Nov? I doubt it, but it's literally the Dems only real chance.

-z

[Troll]

Originally posted by Tmy
Those pick were chosen on purpose. Im suprised they didnt draw in little hitler mustaches while they were at it.

If Dean was a republican we'd be hearing about how the "liberal media" is being unfair to him.

dude, if Dean was a republucan he'd have already had the Hitler moustache drawn on him in those pics.

[VicDaring]

Originally posted by hgc
By the way, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Iowa caucus goers apparently made that decision before Dean's freak-out last night.

Methinks Iowa caucus goers made their decision based on Dean talkin' down their event four years ago.

Hey, that's their right. It's their thing and they want to protect it. I just wouldn't read too much into it.

[hgc]

Originally posted by rikzilla

I feel your pain.

Sorry, that Democrat won't be running. She's hunkering down till '08. She's written off the Democratic party already. She's gonna let it twist in the wind.

The way he gleefully pointed to dead american troops to bolster his campaign was even more repugnant. The other Dems may feel that way too, but at least they have the sense to keep their mouths shut.

Dean is too much of an a-hole to be electable. I too hope the Dems have seen that and will put someone less extreme forward for the nomination. I don't think ANY of the current batch of Dems can unseat Bush, but who knows, Bush might step on his own crank sometime before Nov? I doubt it, but it's literally the Dems only real chance.

-z I do think there are Dem candidates that can beat Bush in this race. Edwards, Kerry or Clark are each electable against W. Remeber Bush got fewer votes than Gore last time. Imagine what a Dem with a personality can do (um, that hurts Kerry's chances just a bit). I get the sense that Bush is not so trusted by Joe Sixpack and Ellen Eldercare as he has been.

[Clancie]

Posted by Tmy

I think its unfair how the media targets Dean
Did you see the study released the other day? There's recently been about twice as much media coverage critical of Dean compared with the other candidates.

Although I personally agree with most of Dean's positions, I wanted him to lose in Iowa since I believe he is totally unelectable (not enough experience and too liberal for this still-quite-conservative country).

Nevertheless, I've been pretty disgusted by the tv pieces about him the past week--lots of negative editorializing every day, but apparently on television they don't have to label it as such. :(

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by hgc
I do think there are Dem candidates that can beat Bush in this race. Edwards, Kerry or Clark are each electable against W. Remeber Bush got fewer votes than Gore last time. Imagine what a Dem with a personality can do (um, that hurts Kerry's chances just a bit). I get the sense that Bush is not so trusted by Joe Sixpack and Ellen Eldercare as he has been.

But there's one great difference; Bush v Gore was pre-9/11. Here's the post-9/11 reality:
Bush Approval Rating Highest Run in History

Of course the events of Sept. 11 continue to reverberate in the political sphere as well. George W. Bush's job approval rating soared after the attacks to the highest ever recorded in opinion polls, peaking at 92 percent Oct. 9. Fueled by approval of his response to terrorism, it has stayed remarkably high — 71 percent in this poll. (That is, for comparison, 14 points higher than Ronald Reagan's career average.)

Indeed Bush's approval ratings in 16 ABCNEWS and ABCNEWS/Washington Post polls the last year have averaged 81 percent—the longest, highest run in presidential approval since modern polling began in the late 1930s. (He gets 74 percent approval specifically on handling the war on terrorism — its lowest since the campaign began, given some of the concerns cited above, but still very broad.)

One result shows how much Bush's popularity rests on the campaign against terrorism: Among the 70 percent who think the war is going very or fairly well, 82 percent approve of his overall performance in office. Among those who think the war is not going well, Bush's approval drops to 44 percent.


Like I said before, Bush needs to make a very big mistake between now and November for the Dems to have a real shot. If Bush was really beatable, do you think Hillary would sit back and let herself get 4 years older? The Dem candidates now are cannon fodder. A forlorn hope going into the breach without a prayer.

-z

[Supercharts]

The pic reminds me of Joe McCarthy. Maybe a little bit of Huey Long...

[hgc]

Originally posted by rikzilla


But there's one great difference; Bush v Gore was pre-9/11. Here's the post-9/11 reality:


Like I said before, Bush needs to make a very big mistake between now and November for the Dems to have a real shot. If Bush was really beatable, do you think Hillary would sit back and let herself get 4 years older? The Dem candidates now are cannon fodder. A forlorn hope going into the breach without a prayer.

-z Ah, the popularity polls. On balance, a recent poll asking voters their preference between Bush and Dem-to-be-named ran about even.

I would think that 9/11 would make Bush's incumbency insurmountable, but it's not necessarily so. The key to skewering Bush on 9/11: the war in Iraq was a distraction from the war on terror, and it makes us less safe. Kerry has been pushing this point, and it could really turn 9/11 against Bush if it takes hold. The fact that Bush's ostensible reasons for the Iraq war have yet to be proven makes that possible.

I'm not sure why Hillary sat it out. If she wants to be president, she should have done it now, and not wimped out for a better opportunity. Perhaps she took her promise to serve out her Senate term seriously. But for her to have the expectation that there wouldn't already be a sitting Dem president in '08 is not being the team player. I also think Hillary has some not-so-great personality quirkiness, a la Dean, but she could still win, and could have beaten Bush this year.

[shanek]

Originally posted by subgenius
This one picture alone will cost him the nomination.

Not as bad as this one will:

[Nasarius]

Bush's approval ratings are currently hovering at slightly over 50%, depending on who you ask. I think he'll win, unfortunately, because all the Democrats kinda suck...but no way will it be the sure thing that rik seems to think.
My psychic powers also tell me that Bush will at least lose New York, so he won't get the biggest chunk of electoral votes that 9/11 might have won him.

[Ignatius]

Howdy, Mr. Zilla!

Originally posted by rikzilla


But there's one great difference; Bush v Gore was pre-9/11. Here's the post-9/11 reality:

You definately have a point there. Bush seems as invincible as his father was in '92 after a sucessful war gave him overwhelming popular support numbers. :p


Like I said before, Bush needs to make a very big mistake between now and November for the Dems to have a real shot. If Bush was really beatable, do you think Hillary would sit back and let herself get 4 years older? The Dem candidates now are cannon fodder. A forlorn hope going into the breach without a prayer.
-z
1. I hear the Hillary candidacy brought up by Republicans much more often than I do by any Democrats.

2. It is a loooong time until November. The people that are paying attention now are a small minority. I don't think that it will take a complete meltdown by Bush to lose. This adminstration is exceptional at damage control anyway. A good campaign and strong debates by a Dem candidate could go a long way. Also, think of how many scandals, natural disasters and important world events have happened in the past 10 months. The guy that does a better job appealing to people and talking about these events will probably be the winner, but we don't even know what these events will be yet. Plus, there might be an inherent advantage to the challenger in these situations. The president actually has to respond to these events and try and make a difference (which is not always possible). The challenger can sit back and critique without being responsible for doing anything.

3. There is a good chance that you are right. Bush is strong, Rove is brilliant and you have a lot of powerful forces on your side (right-wing think tanks, large corporate interests, a growing conservative media), but I look at it this way; If I'm stuck in the water five miles from shore knowing that, at best, I can only swim about one mile...I'll still swim because what the hell else am I going to do out there?
[I would smile here but I'm trying to limit my use of those things]

[edited because I can't spell and for some reason my mispellings only bother me after I hit "POST".

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Ignatius
You definately have a point there. Bush seems as invincible as his father was in '92 after a sucessful war gave him overwhelming popular support numbers. :p

And now all the Democrats need is for Ross Perot to enter the race and lop off about 19% of the vote.

[zakur]

Drudge has got an audio clip of the meltdown:

http://www.drudgereport.com/dean.mp3

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


And now all the Democrats need is for Ross Perot to enter the race and lop off about 19% of the vote.
Ha! Right you are (maybe I should give Ross a call and see if he is busy). There could be some other X-factor, though. For the life of me, I can't think of what that might be. Especially one that would siphon off that many votes. That was the point of my later post, though. We don't know what other factors are going to come into play in the next ten months

[Kodiak]

The Dems in 04...

Well, Gephardt is out and Lieberman won't be far behind.

Dean took a blow in Iowa, but his tyrades will be meaningless to Dems if he takes New Hampshire (GOPers will use his rants to no end if Dean wins the nomination, though...).

Edwards, Kerry, and Clark = a Gore-clone, a wealthy elitist, and a moderate liberal with military and foreign affairs expertise....

Unlike the dems, who consider Bush the antichrist, it doesn't really matter to me which or even if a democrat was to win the White House in 2004, which I think is more possible than Rikzilla indicates. That said, if I had to pick a Dem, my first choice would be Lieberman (the closest to the right) and my second choice would be Clark (for his qualifications).

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


And now all the Democrats need is for Ross Perot to enter the race and lop off about 19% of the vote.

Don't forget about Buchanan in 2000...

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Don't forget about Buchanan in 2000... Buchanan stole at least one democratic vote. My father-in-law. He's a staunch catholic and voted buchanan because he was the only "true" anti-abortion candidate.

[VicDaring]

Originally posted by Kodiak

(GOPers will use his rants to no end if Dean wins the nomination, though...).


Interesting thought.

So who looked more goofy? Dean having some fun cheering up a crowd in Iowa, or Bush playing dressup on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier?

[hgc]

Originally posted by VicDaring


Interesting thought.

So who looked more goofy? Dean having some fun cheering up a crowd in Iowa, or Bush playing dressup on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier? Normally you'd have to give it to the raving lunatic, but this picture of Bush (version 2.0, in uniform and w/ enhanced crotch) with Teletubbies is pretty silly.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_awol.jpg

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by VicDaring


Interesting thought.

So who looked more goofy? Dean having some fun cheering up a crowd in Iowa, or Bush playing dressup on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier?

VicDaring,

That is pretty unfair. Kodiak seemed to be commenting on something that is likely to happen, not necessarily advocating it. What you are doing is, IMO, every bit as wrong as when Republicans hear a criticism of Bush and respond by saying, "Yeah, well Bill Clinton...blah...blah...blah."

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by VicDaring


Interesting thought.

So who looked more goofy? Dean having some fun cheering up a crowd in Iowa, or Bush playing dressup on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier?

Depends on one's opinion, perspective and bias. It is telling though how you describe and characterize each event:

Dean= "having some fun cheering"
Bush= "playing dressup"


Infact, Bush, because he sat in the cockpit, was required to wear that getup.

Did the fact that it was a staged photo-op make any difference? For me, no - that is the way of politics.

I'll tell you what, though. He looked a hell of alot better than Dukhakis (sp?) did in the turrent of that M-1 tank!! :D

[VicDaring]

That is pretty unfair. Kodiak seemed to be commenting on something that is likely to happen, not necessarily advocating it. What you are doing is, IMO, every bit as wrong as when Republicans hear a criticism of Bush and respond by saying, "Yeah, well Bill Clinton...blah...blah...blah."

I think it's a little different, at the very least.

Bush is still in office. If, as Kodiak suggests, that tape becomes a part of the general election campaign, then one could argue that I'm simply suggesting a counter-strategy.

Seriously though, it is a little different when I suggest to a right winger that W. may have exaggerated about WMD & Nukes in Iraq and the response is, "Well, Clinton lied under oath!!!!!!"

I'll tell you what, though. He looked a hell of alot better than Dukhakis (sp?) did in the turrent of that M-1 tank!!

No question about that.

[Kodiak]

I couldn't resist! :D



http://www.dangfunnypolitics.com/Dukakis_tank.jpg

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by VicDaring


I think it's a little different, at the very least.

Bush is still in office. If, as Kodiak suggests, that tape becomes a part of the general election campaign, then one could argue that I'm simply suggesting a counter-strategy.

IF you were stating this as a possible counter-strategy then fair enough. I thought it was coming from left field, but no great harm either way I suppose.


Seriously though, it is a little different when I suggest to a right winger that W. may have exaggerated about WMD & Nukes in Iraq and the response is, "Well, Clinton lied under oath!!!!!!"

So you think it is worse for someone to mislead the country into war than it is for them to lie about Executive Hummers?

ENEMY COMBATANT!

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Kodiak




I'll tell you what, though. He looked a hell of alot better than Dukhakis (sp?) did in the turrent of that M-1 tank!! :D

That's kind of the rub isn't it?

Americans will elect a lot of things, obvious sex addicts, old B movie actors with less than a clear grasp of the present, ex-cokehead frat-boys, peanut farmers, and crooked used car salesmen (or was Hunter just kidding about Nixon?), but they won't elect a dork.

Bush may have been in context foolish in that he was somewhat wasteful of resources with his photo op, but he didn't look obviously stupid. Big difference.

Dean's rant made the 6 P.M. "Sportscenter" last night, causing ESPN to list their top ten podium related moments. Even Jim Mora's "Playoffs?" and famed "Diddly poo" meltdowns seem more presidential than Dean channelling Hulk Hogan.

Dean did kind of remind me of that "rap" by that poor Florida Marlins player after the world series though, both seemed to have that geographical conquest vibe.... I wonder if Dean can outdance Mark Madsen?

I just hope that the good people of New Hampshire have the sense to drive a stake through this unelectable vampire who will suck the blood out of the party if not immediately stopped. Not that Dean is a bad guy, it's just that he's not good at this, and earnest honesty is nice and all, but moral victories are for suckers.

Then again I've been in court all day so I may be a little harsh about the world. Being awash in absurdity while someone's life is in the balance does that to me, but that is another story...

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Suddenly


I just hope that the good people of New Hampshire have the sense to drive a stake through this unelectable vampire who will suck the blood out of the party if not immediately stopped.

Don't mince words -- what do you really think?


Then again I've been in court all day so I may be a little harsh about the world.

I am hoping for your swift acquittal.

N/A

Sorry - couldn't resist. As another attorney, I know that I should have, but I couldn't -- so sue me.


No, wait.

[Frank Newgent]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/US/howard_judy_dean_transcript_040122-1.html

I believe we ought to balance the budget and until we can show how to balance the budget, we can't promise people tax cuts. The biggest difference between me and everybody else in this race, including President Bush, who is in some ways acting like the most liberal Democrat you could have because of the borrow and spend, borrow and spend, spend, spend, spend, charge it (Inaudible) credit card the Administration. And but those (Inaudible) everybody else is running, they'll promise you tax cuts, they'll promise you health care, they'll promise you education, they'll promise you help with your college. Now, everybody knows that that's not true and you can't do it. I think the reason 50 percent of the people don't vote in this country is because they know darn well not only is there not much difference between a Republican and a Democrat, but everybody in Washington says one thing at election time and goes back and do something … does something else. The reason I was so successful in (Inaudible) is because I didn't mind giving people bad news. And when they … they'll respect you a lot more as a political leader if you give them bad news straight to their face.
What a nut.