Thunderbird and BTinternet - HELP!!

[Rolfe]

Sorry to use you guys as a helpdesk, but I hope someone can get me out of this mess.

I've been using Thunderbird as my mail client for over a year, after recommendations from this forum. I like it OK. It's not as user-friendly as my old Compuserve system, but it does the job.

However, I haven't been able to send an email for over a week. BTinternet suddenly started requiring email addresses to be registered, and won't allow messages from anything but their @btinternet.com domain to get through. I've never used that, I have my own domain name - well, three of them.

I finally managed to get the address I use most often registered, but I still can't send out. Some sort of a problem with the SMPT server. At first it seemed unable to find the server, but now I'm getting the following message.

Sending of message failed.
The message could not be sent because the connection to SMTP server mail.btinternet.com was lost in the middle of the transaction. Try again or contact your network administrator


BT's helpline has told me the SMPT server should be set to mail.btinternet.com and at port 25. However that's how it is, and that's how it has always been. They're refusing to tell me any more because they only support Microsoft products!

Anyone any idea how I can start sending emails again? There are a lot of people getting quite cross with me for ignoring them. My incoming main is fine by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

Can you try pointing it at the IP address of mail.btinternet.whatever? Perhaps it's a DNS problem?

If you can't get this sorted, I can PM you ways we can get around this by using another mail server for your domains.

[Ducky]

HAHAHA. Ok sorry, this struck me as funny. So a host for mail.btinternet.com is as follows:

~ $ host mail.btinternet.com
mail.btinternet.com is an alias for pop-smtp.bt.mail.yahoo.com.
pop-smtp.bt.mail.yahoo.com is an alias for pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com.
pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com has address 217.146.188.192
pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com has address 217.12.13.134


This may actually be an issue with Yahoo. Yahoo likes to see things with DKIM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKIM) signatures, and it may be rejecting your ip based on a blacklist it auto-generated. try pointing your mail client at pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com instead of mail.btinternet.com

Some suggestions around this:

use google apps for your domain (http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html) or run your own mail server (not necessarily recommended.)


ETA:

Tried that. Same error! Thanks for knowing what you're talking about.... 'Cos I don't, right now.

Rolfe.

Ok I think Yahoo is not allowing your IP to connect.

[Rolfe]

I could if I knew what the IP address was. Maybe.

I've never had trouble like this before. Thunderbird worked first go out of the box when I set it up with this account. The only thing that's changed is having to do this poxy email address verification thing. Then once I'd done that, hey presto, SMPT problem. And they don't support Thunderbird. I HATE BT.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

HAHAHA. Ok sorry, this struck me as funny. So a host for mail.btinternet.com is as follows:

~ $ host mail.btinternet.com
mail.btinternet.com is an alias for pop-smtp.bt.mail.yahoo.com.
pop-smtp.bt.mail.yahoo.com is an alias for pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com.
pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com has address 217.146.188.192
pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com has address 217.12.13.134


This may actually be an issue with Yahoo. Yahoo likes to see things with DKIM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKIM) signatures, and it may be rejecting your ip based on a blacklist it auto-generated. try pointing your mail client at pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com instead of mail.btinternet.com

Some suggestions around this:

use google apps for your domain (http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html) or run your own mail server (not necessarily recommended.)


Tried that. Same error! Thanks for knowing what you're talking about.... 'Cos I don't, right now.

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

I could if I knew what the IP address was. Maybe.

I've never had trouble like this before. Thunderbird worked first go out of the box when I set it up with this account. The only thing that's changed is having to do this poxy email address verification thing. Then once I'd done that, hey presto, SMPT problem. And they don't support Thunderbird. I HATE BT.

Rolfe.

I really suggest moving your private domains to use Google Apps. Seriously. Will save much headache. PM me if you have questions.

[Salerio]

I know exactly what is going on. It's for this very reason I am trying desparatly to move all my clients away from BT as fast as I can.

The default position with BT is that you can only send and receive using email addresses that are in the domain BT own or are affiliated with - so @btinternet @btconnect @btopenworld plus a handful of others.

If you have your own domains you need to inform BT that (for example etiqa.co.uk - that one is mine) will be relaying through their mail servers. BT also prevent you sending out on port 80 (SMTP) to other ISPs to relay your own domains.

It's a total PITA because it prevents you setting up a server to relay all emails through their servers because you can't register every domain you need to relay, even though it's a perfectly valid thing to do.

In your case you need to get BT to add all your own domains to their relays so that they will accept outbound email from all your own domains. Personally I would move ISPs, I know BT are a reasonable ISP for your average home user, but if you're doing more than average you need an ISP who is going treat you like an adult. For several years running Zen Internet has topped Which? surveys for very good reason.

[Ducky]

I know exactly what is going on. It's for this very reason I am trying desparatly to move all my clients away from BT as fast as I can.

The default position with BT is that you can only send and receive using email addresses that are in the domain BT own or are affiliated with - so @btinternet @btconnect @btopenworld plus a handful of others.

If you have your own domains you need to inform BT that (for example etiqa.co.uk - that one is mine) will be relaying through their mail servers. BT also prevent you sending out on port 80 (SMTP) to other ISPs to relay your own domains.

It's a total PITA because it prevents you setting up a server to relay all emails through their servers because you can't register every domain you need to relay, even though it's a perfectly valid thing to do.

In your case you need to get BT to add all your own domains to their relays so that they will accept outbound email from all your own domains. Personally I would move ISPs, I know BT are a reasonable ISP for your average home user, but if you're doing more than average you need an ISP who is going treat you like an adult. For several years running Zen Internet has topped Which? surveys for very good reason.

This.

Also, keeping your mail/calendaring services moved off to google is a good way to avoid lots of these types of issues. I run Google Apps for several domains and no matter my ISP, the mail works fine. Google Apps will use your domain name, so there's no @gmail etc.

[Rolfe]

Hey no! That worked I think!!!!!!!

I had to delete the mail.btinternet.com thing entirely, not just reset it, and I think it's done it.

Hang on, I'll get back to you....

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Ducky, does the phrase "thanking you with tears in my eyes" ring any bells?

You are the wonderfullest, most kindest, most generous computer geek on the face of the planet. I was your devoted slave before this started, now I'm doubly that!

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

Ducky, does the phrase "thanking you with tears in my eyes" ring any bells?

You are the wonderfullest, most kindest, most generous computer geek on the face of the planet. I was your devoted slave before this started, now I'm doubly that!

Rolfe.


WOOO!

I have no idea what I did, but I'll take it!

Next time I'm over your end of the pond we'll have a guinness.

[Rolfe]

WOOO!

I have no idea what I did, but I'll take it!

Next time I'm over your end of the pond we'll have a guinness.


What you did was

try pointing your mail client at pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com instead of mail.btinternet.com


First shot didn't do it because it defaulted back to the btinternet thing. So I made the yahoo one the default, but that didn't work either, it was still sending to btinternet.

So I deleted the btinternet thing entirely, leaving only the yahoo one, and that did it. I have successfully sent an email to one of my other domains, and that came in the full circle without any problem.

It's only the SMPT bit that was trouble - the incoming pop3 bit hasn't been affected,

Rolfe, absolutely overcome with gratitude.

[Ducky]

What you did was




First shot didn't do it because it defaulted back to the btinternet thing. So I made the yahoo one the default, but that didn't work either, it was still sending to btinternet.

So I deleted the btinternet thing entirely, leaving only the yahoo one, and that did it. I have successfully sent an email to one of my other domains, and that came in the full circle without any problem.

It's only the SMPT bit that was trouble - the incoming pop3 bit hasn't been affected,

Rolfe, absolutely overcome with gratitude.

Interesting.

This sounds like a combination of btinternet fail and thunderbird oddness.

[Rolfe]

I know exactly what is going on. It's for this very reason I am trying desparatly to move all my clients away from BT as fast as I can.

The default position with BT is that you can only send and receive using email addresses that are in the domain BT own or are affiliated with - so @btinternet @btconnect @btopenworld plus a handful of others.

If you have your own domains you need to inform BT that (for example etiqa.co.uk - that one is mine) will be relaying through their mail servers. BT also prevent you sending out on port 80 (SMTP) to other ISPs to relay your own domains.

It's a total PITA because it prevents you setting up a server to relay all emails through their servers because you can't register every domain you need to relay, even though it's a perfectly valid thing to do.

In your case you need to get BT to add all your own domains to their relays so that they will accept outbound email from all your own domains. Personally I would move ISPs, I know BT are a reasonable ISP for your average home user, but if you're doing more than average you need an ISP who is going treat you like an adult. For several years running Zen Internet has topped Which? surveys for very good reason.


Thanks for all that extra info.

My situation is that I've been a BT customer since ever I had a phone. That was 1982, by the way. I never really wanted to change, and when I moved to this house I kept the phone number of the previous owners, who had also been BT customers. (Mind you, they have never had the address of the house right in all the 14 years since it was built, and nobody can get them to change it - it's only the kindness of the postman that gets me the bills!)

So, since BT internet seemed to have a reasonable reputation, and I didn't want to change my phone number or anything, I went with that when I got broadband. This was just over a year ago - I was a late adopter. I've been reasonably content with it until this mess.

I've had to phone their helpline a couple of times, and it's always someone Indian. They're reasonably competent, but it's like talking to the cast of It Ain't Half Hot Mum. I keep having to ask them to repeat stuff.

But then yesterday a pretty dim Indian bird kept me on the phone for nearly an hour, just to get my main email address registered. The problem was that my password wasn't being accepted, but she couldn't just fix that, could she, she had to do the whole kaboodle. Then once that was done, and the mail still wasn't sending, she announced she could put me on to a pay-for-it line to get Thunderbird sorted. I blew up at her and rang off.

Today I had another shot and found she hadn't gone through all the innumerable steps to register the address, and I thought that was it. I jumped through the remaining hoops, and that's when the SMPT thing popped up.

I rang again, and got a different Indian guy. He simply told me they only supported Microsoft mail clients, too bad. I blew a gasket at him and hung up on him. I may have said a few things about changing broadband providers. A few minutes later his supervisor phoned me back, while I was in the middle of updating Firefox in case that helped. He said, use mail.btinternet.com on port 25. But when I checked, that's what it was already set at.

That's when I thought, maybe some kind JREFer will be able to help. 25 minutes later I check the thread, and Ducky has sussed the whole thing.

I can't quite face the hassle of changing providers, but I HATE Yahoo. I've loathed them for years. I stopped using egroups when they took it over. I would never, ever register a yahoo identity. I was one of the gang in the protest when they took over geocities and had the row about copyrighting people's web sites - in 1999. If I had known BT had anything to do with that shower, I'd never have joined up.

Right now, it seems as if I only have to register the handful of email addresses I actually use to send out with, from my three domains. Anything pointed INWARDS (such as the postmaster defaults) seems to be OK. So maybe I can live with it. But if only they would let me register the domains themselves instead of every single bloody address, it would help!

I thought all this hassle was to stop spammers sending out, and if so, then maybe it was worth it, but why such a hassle? Is this actually some private perversion of BT's?

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

Seriously, Rolfe. Read up on Google Apps for your Domain. Solve all your issues, keeps your domain addresses in tact, and doesn't care what provider you use.

[Rolfe]

OK, will do, thanks for the advice.

But now I gotta email my friends!

And the people who may be about to give me a job, who don't want their name anywhere near my office computer for obvious reasons.

Rolfe.

[Wudang]

I switched to talktalk a few years back and apart from the fact that their DNS servers are as stable as a paranoid schizo on bad acid I'm quite happy. I just added half a dozen DNS servers from OpenDNS and the backbone servers.

[commandlinegamer]

IIRC, this started being a requirement for BT Internet accounts 4-5 years ago; surprised it's only just happened to you recently. If you were a business user you could log in to the administration page (normally www.btconnect.com; that portal still exists today but links to a slightly different layout these days) and set up relaying for your non-BT domain's email addresses).

Furthermore I'm sure the SMTP settings as above are correct; as long as BT know about the domains you're using your email should get through, regardless of email client.

[Soapy Sam]

I've been getting 3 letters a week from Virgin pushing their cable deals. Not being in the habit of streaming vids, I find my ADSL2 line plenty fast enough, but if you have cable out in the Lothian wilds, you might give it a whirl.

[Rolfe]

This isn't even the Lothian wilds, this is the Peeblesshire wilds.

Cable? Don't make me laugh. We don't even have mains gas. (Maybe they could make a job of it, just dig up the road once and all that....)

It's working just as well as it did before though, thanks to Ducky. And I upgraded Thunderbird while I was at it so I now have tabbed emails, which I like a lot.

I'm just pretty scunnered that BT will only support Micro$oft products, to the point where nobody could even say "just enter pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com instead of mail.btinternet.com as your SMPT server". It took Ducky less than 25 minutes from when I posted my query to come up with that, starting from a baseline of zero knowledge. I was on the phone to India for 45 minutes on one occasion and about 20 on another, which was then followed up by the second guy's supervisor trying to be helpful, but simply telling me again that the SMPT server should be mail.btinternet.com.

I'm also less than enchanted that BTinternet seem to be either in the pocket of Yahoo, whom I hate, or even owned by them. However, as things are working now, it's too much trouble to change.

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

This isn't even the Lothian wilds, this is the Peeblesshire wilds.

Cable? Don't make me laugh. We don't even have mains gas. (Maybe they could make a job of it, just dig up the road once and all that....)

It's working just as well as it did before though, thanks to Ducky. And I upgraded Thunderbird while I was at it so I now have tabbed emails, which I like a lot.

I'm just pretty scunnered that BT will only support Micro$oft products, to the point where nobody could even say "just enter pop-smtp.bt.mail.fy5.b.yahoo.com instead of mail.btinternet.com as your SMPT server". It took Ducky less than 25 minutes from when I posted my query to come up with that, starting from a baseline of zero knowledge. I was on the phone to India for 45 minutes on one occasion and about 20 on another, which was then followed up by the second guy's supervisor trying to be helpful, but simply telling me again that the SMPT server should be mail.btinternet.com.

I'm also less than enchanted that BTinternet seem to be either in the pocket of Yahoo, whom I hate, or even owned by them. However, as things are working now, it's too much trouble to change.

Rolfe.


What baffles me is that that's really just diagnosis 101 for support desk. You have a mail server that is an alias for another server, and you have an end user having issues. Of course you should check to see if they can get to the end point to see if the issue is in the middle. You should also come up with an IP to rule out DNS issues. This is how I found out it was a yahoo mail server (the host command showed me while I was trying to ascertain the IP address of mail.btinternet.com.)

If it really was something cached in thunderbird, and that cleaned it out, great. If not, it could be I was simply lucky to have timed my responses along with btinternet finally adding your addresses to their anti-spam measures. Either way, support should have been checking every point of connection along the way for your smtp routes. Part of that would have been to try to have you point directly at the server it's actually going to and not the alias. If support doesn't know mail.btinternet.com is not a physical server they would have learned it quickly when they gathered the IP for you to try instead of the DNS name.

I guess if you're level 1 support, you're not supposed to know what you're doing nowadays. I haven't been level 1 support in over a decade but I am amazed at how incompetent they seem to be when I deal with them now. No matter what company I deal with.

[Rolfe]

All I got was "can't help you, we don't support Thunderbird". I asked how much Microsoft was paying them to force their clients away from their competition.

I mean, it wasn't exactly rocket science. Even I knew that I probably just needed a different STMP server address. I didn't know how to find that, but you'd think anyone in tech support could manage that.

Rolfe.

[Ducky]

All I got was "can't helo you, we don't support Thunderbird". I asked how much Microsoft was paying them to force their clients away from their competition.

I mean, it wasn't exactly rocket science. Even I knew that I probably just needed a different STMP server address. I didn't know how to find that, but you'd think anyone in tech support could manage that.

Rolfe.

It is unusual to not support Thunderbird. Every service I've ever dealt with has instructions for various email clients. Google has very specific instructions for just about every email client you could want. The end client is really not doing anything spectacularly different from a support end if it is Thunderbird or MS Mail or Apple Mail. They all connect on the same protocols, they all do the same things.

Why they don't support Thunderbird (which is a very popular alternative) is beyond me. It's stupid.

[Rolfe]

My feelings exactly.

You know, when they start to talk to you, they don't even say "open a browser window", they say "open Internet Explorer". Which in my case involves a hunt-and-peck through "all programmes" on the Startup menu.

Rolfe.

[Wudang]

My feelings exactly.

You know, when they start to talk to you, they don't even say "open a browser window", they say "open Internet Explorer". Which in my case involves a hunt-and-peck through "all programmes" on the Startup menu.

Rolfe.
"Start" button, select "Run" and type "iexplore". It'll remember it for you