Netanyahu, defiant, stands his ground

[boyntonstu]

"The connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel cannot be denied.The connection between the Jewish people and Jerusalem cannot be denied," Netanyahu says. "The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 year ago and the Jewish people are building Jerusalem today. Jerusalem is not a settlement.It is our capital."

Much more here:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Netanyahu_defiant_stands_his_ground.html?

A line has been drawn in the sand.

It will be interesting to hear what Obama/Clinton will say.

[DC]

they left Jerusalem........... they didnt fight for it, they cowardly left it and lived in Diaspora......

[Thunder]

Israel can build in Jerusalem all it wants. But the USA doesn't have to support it, fund it, or defend it.

Supporting Israel does NOT equal supporting settlements.

[Thunder]

Oh, and by the way, most of East Jerusalem was NEVER part of Jerusalem, for 3,000 years.

Historic Jerusalem, for 3,000 years, never went beyond the old city walls.

Then in 1967, Israel massively expanded Jerusalem's borders, to include areas that were never...ever......considered part of the city.

And now, Israel claims that these lands, are part of "eternal Jerusalem"???

what a God damned liar.

its as if NYC annexed New Jersey, and then when New Jersey demanded freedom, NYC yells "we will not divide ancient NYC!!!"

[Doctor Evil]

they left Jerusalem........... they didnt fight for it, they cowardly left it and lived in Diaspora......

Huh? Care to explain what you mean?

[Thunder]

well, Jews have been a majority in Jerusalem since the middle 1800s.

though, this is the Old City. Not the north-eastern boundaries created in 1967.

Do Jews have a right to live in the Old City and West Jerusalem? Sure do!!

[Dorian Gray]

And I thought Tel Aviv was the capital. I mean, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in the way Philadelphia is the capital of the United States.

Israel needs to build houses on wheels - or have huge RV camps. That way they can move in and out as needed.

[Doctor Evil]

And I thought Tel Aviv was the capital. I mean, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in the way Philadelphia is the capital of the United States.


I think you got that the other way around. The declaration of independence was in Tel Aviv. The Parliament and heads of states are located in Jerusalem. (Starting from 1949, by the way.)

[Unabogie]

Ah, I remember the good old days where we weren't supposed to care what some foreigner from another country thought, and besides, rooting for another country over your own in a time of war was treason.

Ooops, phone's ringing...

Hey, it's the Dixie Chicks on line two! They agree with me and thought you all should know.

[The Fool]

A line has been drawn in the sand.


thats not very likely, Israel avoids drawing lines in sand as someone may try to get then to agree that their nation actually has defined borders.

[DC]

Huh? Care to explain what you mean?

Titus kicked their asses for revolting.

[a_unique_person]

they left Jerusalem........... they didnt fight for it, they cowardly left it and lived in Diaspora......

It wasn't cowardly. The Romans would have slaughtered all of them if they hadn't left it.

[DC]

It wasn't cowardly. The Romans would have slaughtered all of them if they hadn't left it.

true. But they still left.

[Leif Roar]

"The connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel cannot be denied.

"Canaan for the Canaanites" I say (with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.)

[Doctor Evil]

Titus kicked their asses for revolting.

They fought a war, and lost it. Titus had to first storm the city, and then the temple. Which is not what you said before.

By the way, so, if they lost a war, then what? What are you trying to say.

[Thunder]

The Palestinians have a right to live free in their own state, in the West Bank.

If Palestine has no right to exist, than neither does Israel.

[TriskettheKid]

The Palestinians have a right to live free in their own state, in the West Bank.

If Palestine has no right to exist, than neither does Israel.

God, I don't know how many times I have had to say this:

No state, none, has a right to exist. States that can exercise their own sovereign power exist. That is why this is a pointless area for debate. Israel exists. It exerts its own sovereign power. There is no right for it to exist, it does.

It is a pointless thing to talk about, regardless of who brings it up.

[Thunder]

No state, none, has a right to exist. States that can exercise their own sovereign power exist. That is why this is a pointless area for debate. Israel exists. It exerts its own sovereign power. There is no right for it to exist, it does.

I disagree. I believe that a Jewish State of Israel, has a right to exist. As does an Arab State of Palestine.

The UN has affirmed this right, again and again, since 1947.

[bigjelmapro]

though, this is the Old City. Not the north-eastern boundaries created in 1967.

Jerusalem district has been the same through the Ottoman period. The only new creations were the voided armistice lines between 1949-67.

Keep pedaling this piece of fiction...

[Thunder]

Jerusalem district has been the same through the Ottoman period. The only new creations were the voided armistice lines between 1949-67.


did you not see the lovely map I posted, showing the borders of Jerusalem under British, Jordanian, and now Israeli rule?

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, I guess.

[bigjelmapro]

I disagree. I believe that a Jewish State of Israel, has a right to exist. As does an Arab State of Palestine.

The UN has affirmed this right, again and again, since 1947.
That isn't a counter-argument as to a right of a country to exist, its simply stating the opposite...

[Thunder]

If the UN knew that the Jewish State was going to prevent the Arab state from existing, I doubt they would have voted as they did, for UN Resolution 181.

[bigjelmapro]

did you not see the lovely map I posted, showing the borders of Jerusalem under British, Jordanian, and now Israeli rule?

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, I guess.
You posted a map? As in a historical one?

[Thunder]

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/images/jer_maps/Jlem1947-2000.gif

[BeAChooser]

I believe that a Jewish State of Israel, has a right to exist. As does an Arab State of Palestine.

The UN has affirmed this right, again and again, since 1947.

Too bad arabs didn't affirm that back in 1947. Then they might have had both.

Too bad many arabs still won't affirm it. Because that's the only thing that has been keeping them from having both.

[IDB87]

I disagree. I believe that a Jewish State of Israel, has a right to exist. As does an Arab State of Palestine.

You make things so complicated for yourself.

Neither has a right to the land. Both have a right to the land. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Throw in several wars, resolution after resolution, pull in the U.N., all the major players of the world stage, and things get overly complicated and befuddled. Especially when you throw fuel on the fire by saying 'This person has a -right- to the land.'

Morality is great and all, but lets keep things simple.

[IDB87]

Too bad arabs didn't affirm that back in 1947. Then they might have had both.

Too bad many arabs still won't affirm it. Because that's the only thing that has been keeping them from having both.

I don't like how you phrased this post.

The Arabs won't affirm it, or their leaders won't? I hear, time and again, that the Arabs won't have peace, but yet they live in tyranny, or at least at the mercy of their leaders. Why hold the collective responsible for what a minority believes and enforces on their population? Unless you actually live there and can say, for a fact.

This, to me, is like saying 'The JEWS won't have peace' when it can be more accurately said that the state of Israel (even more precise by saying the current administration of Israel) does not want peace.

[TriskettheKid]

I disagree. I believe that a Jewish State of Israel, has a right to exist. As does an Arab State of Palestine.

The UN has affirmed this right, again and again, since 1947.

Israel has no right to exist. Neither does any other state. France, for example, has no right to exist. Canada, for example, has no right to exist.

It seems like a tautology, but it's how it works when it comes to this. A nation exists because it exists; because it is sovereign, and can exercise its sovereignty, it exists.

No state exists simply because it has a right to.

The Palestinians have no right to a state. Neither do the Israelis. Unlike the Palestinians, though, the Israelis have created a state out of what the exiting sovereign power granted, and kept it sovereign. Some people may not like that fact, but it is what it is. They exist, and that's all there is to it.

You can play morality games all you want, but it is what it is. If you want to fix it, make sure the Palestinians can create and keep a sovereign state over what they're being given. If they can keep a West Bank nation sovereign, then they've got a state. Otherwise it's all just a garbage argument to cloud the issue.

[Thunder]

Israel has no right to exist. Neither does any other state. France, for example, has no right to exist. Canada, for example, has no right to exist.

Much of the planet Earth, disagrees.

[bigjelmapro]

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/images/jer_maps/Jlem1947-2000.gif
Read, as you have failed to in the past where you've posted this, district, as in not municipal boundaries under different occupations, ie Jordan and the British.

[bigjelmapro]

Israel has no right to exist. Neither does any other state. France, for example, has no right to exist. Canada, for example, has no right to exist.
...

Why bother talking to him? He won't debate you on points, he'll just come up with golden drivel like 'the world disagrees with you' :p

[TriskettheKid]

Why bother talking to him? He won't debate you on points, he'll just come up with golden drivel like 'the world disagrees with you' :p

I honestly had no idea this was a hard concept to understand.

[Thunder]

Israel has a right to exist.

[TriskettheKid]

Israel has a right to exist.

No, it doesn't.

This is an argument that is completely incompatible with current political philosophy.

A sovereign state does not have a right to exist...it DOES exist. It is sovereign.

Seriously, how is this a hard concept to understand?

[Thunder]

No, it doesn't.


yes, it does.

[TriskettheKid]

yes, it does.

Fine.

Name any other State that you think has a right to exist. Then explain why.

[Thunder]

Fine.

Name any other State that you think has a right to exist. Then explain why.

the USA has the right to exist, because this right is recognized by most nations and peoples on Earth.

"rights" are simply human constructs.

[TriskettheKid]

the USA has the right to exist, because this right is recognized by most nations and peoples on Earth.

"rights" are simply human constructs.

That is completely wrong.

The US is recognized by other nations as, and this is totally shocking to hear, a sovereign nation. France, for example, does not recognize the US because France thinks that the US has a right to exist. They recognize the US because they "recognize" the US as a sovereign nation.

End of story.

And, once again, States (or Nations) do not have rights. This is a very, very, very basic concept. I honestly cannot comprehend why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.

[Thunder]

That is completely wrong.


I disagree.

[TriskettheKid]

I disagree.

Imagine my surprise, Mr. Cleese.

[Arcade22]

So states are nothing more than lines drawn upon the ground with someone strong enough to keep control over it? Nothing more?

[Thunder]

So states are nothing more than lines drawn upon the ground with someone strong enough to keep control over it? Nothing more?

pretty much.

What is now part of Poland used to be called Germany.

What is now part of Slovakia used to be called Ukraine.

Why? Because the winner drew the borders.

[TriskettheKid]

So states are nothing more than lines drawn upon the ground with someone strong enough to keep control over it? Nothing more?

Essentially, yes.

Although we could be drawn into a debate over what constitutes a State versus a Nation.

[bigjelmapro]

Essentially, yes.

Although we could be drawn into a debate over what constitutes a State versus a Nation.
Don't confuse him even further. :D

[DC]

They fought a war, and lost it. Titus had to first storm the city, and then the temple. Which is not what you said before.

By the way, so, if they lost a war, then what? What are you trying to say.

which people is next to get back the land they lost decades ago?

[Arcade22]

Essentially, yes.

I was meaning if you feel that a state is nothing more to you than that? Do you feel no emotional connection?

Although we could be drawn into a debate over what constitutes a State versus a Nation.

We are talking about states not nations.

[Thunder]

I would just like to know, how much longer will right-wing Jews and Israelis continue to LIE about Jerusalem?????

Only a LIAR would claim that East Jerusalem, who's borders were NEVER part of Jerusalem, for 3,000 years...and are expansion of 300% over the borders pre-1967...are somehow part of the Jewish people's ancient Jerusalem heritage.

East Jerusalem, 95% of it, is no more "Jerusalem", than Alaska is Texas.

The lies need to stop!!

[a_unique_person]

Israel has no right to exist. Neither does any other state. France, for example, has no right to exist. Canada, for example, has no right to exist.

It seems like a tautology, but it's how it works when it comes to this. A nation exists because it exists; because it is sovereign, and can exercise its sovereignty, it exists.

No state exists simply because it has a right to.

The Palestinians have no right to a state. Neither do the Israelis. Unlike the Palestinians, though, the Israelis have created a state out of what the exiting sovereign power granted, and kept it sovereign. Some people may not like that fact, but it is what it is. They exist, and that's all there is to it.

You can play morality games all you want, but it is what it is. If you want to fix it, make sure the Palestinians can create and keep a sovereign state over what they're being given. If they can keep a West Bank nation sovereign, then they've got a state. Otherwise it's all just a garbage argument to cloud the issue.

So Israel doesn't exist, then that's all there is to it? What is the claim to a 'right' to Jerusalem based on past inhabitation about then?

[TriskettheKid]

So Israel doesn't exist, then that's all there is to it?

Is that a hypothetical? Or a serious question?

Hypothetical: Yes. If Israel doesn't exist, or is not a sovereign nation/state, then it does not exist.

Serious: Israel is a sovereign nation, and therefore exists.

What is the claim to a 'right' to Jerusalem based on past inhabitation about then?

No idea.

Israel has no "right" to the city. Nor does anyone else. Israel has sovereign control over it, and that's what matters.

Seriously, people need to drop this whole morality crap when it comes to things like this. All it does is confuse the issues.

[Thunder]

i honestly believe that due to certain historical and religious factors, Israel and the Jewish people do have a right to some parts of the Old City, and even some parts of East Jerusalem.

now, does that mean this "right" must be acknowledged by the Arabs and the world? of course not.

[Thunder]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/president-allegedly-dumps-israeli-prime-minister-dinner/?test=latestnews?test=latestnews

Obama disses Bibi. Too bad, Bibi.

[TriskettheKid]

i honestly believe that due to certain historical and religious factors, Israel and the Jewish people do have a right to some parts of the Old City, and even some parts of East Jerusalem.

now, does that mean this "right" must be acknowledged by the Arabs and the world? of course not.

I disagree.

I think there are some legitimate claims from several parties.

But none of them have a right to any part of the city.

[Doctor Evil]

which people is next to get back the land they lost decades ago?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean? Do you have any point you want to make? Then make it.

By the way, can I deduce from the shift in your argument that you admit that your initial point, that Jews did not fight for Jerusalem against the Roman, was false?

[BeAChooser]

I hear, time and again, that the Arabs won't have peace, but yet they live in tyranny, or at least at the mercy of their leaders.

I agree that there are many arabs who would like peace, but the majority don't seem to want it. Hamas was ELECTED to lead the Palestinians. And the leaders of many of the arab countries are elected. Even Iran's leader, and he's amongst the most anti-Israeli of them all. Surely after half a century the arab people as a whole could have found a way to put people into power that would bring them that peace you claim they desire.

when it can be more accurately said that the state of Israel (even more precise by saying the current administration of Israel) does not want peace.

Peace at any price … right? As long as it's the Israelis paying the price. LOL!