How Penn changed my life...

[kittynh]

OK I feel strongly enough about this that I am going to explain how Penn's remarks changed my life. I'm totally serious when I write this. I am a deist, but when he said that we needed to be totally honest with people, and that we could be totally honest and still be liked, I was struck as if by a bolt of lightening. You see, Penn was being honest, Mr.Randi is honest, and yet - deist that I am - I still respect, like and in the case of Mr.Randi I love him. As a woman who was raised to be meek and quiet and a "lady" I was in fear of being honest and losing the respect of those around me. I was always the tactful careful skeptic.

So, I decided from that moment to try being honest. To stop being rude by actually lying to people around me, and to try honesty. It has worked wonders. I can't believe the respect I've received and the fact that people are looking at me a new way.

Here is how I have changed my behavior in the past 24 hours. It started when I landed in Hartford and was riding on the little bus to the parking lot. It was bitterly cold and a woman with 2 small children was sitting across from me. She told the kids, "let's all think good thought that the car will start!" I asked her, "do you really think positive thinking will help your car start?" She looked up startled. "well, "she answered, "it can't hurt!" I smiled at her and said, "but what if your car doesn't start? Will your children think it's because they failed by not thinking enough positive thoughts?" She looked flustered then said, "well, I never thought of it like that before." She wasn't mad or anything, so I added, "wouldn't it be better to teach them that while you hope the car starts, if it doesn't you can easily get help from a garage. That these situations shouldn't be scarey or upsetting. OUr society has ways of taking care of problems like a car not starting." Then, it happened....the woman THANKED ME!

I went into school to work and took to the middle school two of Dr.Shermers books I had brought for the classroom. Usually the very educated middle school teachers kind of look at me as the flakey sweet art teacher. I handed them to the head teacher and instead of just dropping them off and hoping that he would read them, I said, "These books were written by an atheist. I think he has many points that should be read by ALL teachers." I then opened the book and made the teacher look at the table of contents. His eyes opened up, and he began to get excited about the books. He put them in his back pack to take home to get started on that night. And then he THANKED ME for taking the time to point out the finer points of the books.

I then was talking about the meeting when the janitor came by. I mentioned Penn and Teller were there, and she stopped to ask me who else had been there (she's a Penn and Teller fan). When I mentioned Ian Rowland, and cold reading, she stopped and said, "you mean Sylvia Browne isn't real? But she's on tv all the time, and no one says she isn't real!" I looked her in the eye and I said, "I say she isn't real. Penn and Teller say she isn't real. " I then did my own impromtu cold reading on another teacher standing there. (I did the "I see a M, Mary, Marie..." trust me I know I'm not good at it). The janitor was amazed, she had never even a suspicion that Sylvia Browne wasn't real. And then she THANKED ME!

I know some people are going to object, and that's fine. BUt, I can't tell you how good it felt to for once respect me own beliefs over a fear of people not liking me. I'm ready for the rebuffs. I think I can still be friends with those who disagree with me, but I like to think they are going to see it as a sign of my respect for them that I'm willing to tell them how I feel.

As Penn himself might put it, I am no longer going to BULLSH$T anyone!

Thank you Penn, with all my heart.

[sparklecat]

I will second this actually :) I've been trying to do the same myself, and give people the respect of what I actually think.


They seem to be laughing though :p

[Electric Monk]

Wow, Kitty, those stories are great! (and inspirational).

I'm glad that I got to meet you at TAM 2 and that you got home safely.

--James

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm completely amazed that you received reasonable reactions from these folks. Cool!

~~ Paul

[Jeff Corey]

I have to admit that I have become more carney trashlike in my presentation of material in lectures, due to Penn. It sure gets their attention.
I just don't use words like "retard".

[Mercutio]

I told my students yesterday that, although I do not intend to offend them personally, I do intend to challenge and even offend their deeply held beliefs. "Any deeply held belief that cannot stand up to a challenge should be challenged", or words to that effect. They appreciated it, and the fact that I asked them to challenge my beliefs as well.

[Cleopatra]

Yes but you know Mercutio this why people go to the University, to question their beliefs and to learn the critical thinking.

Also, I believe that people don't really need to go to the University to become preachers, don't you think?


originally posted by Jeff Corey
I just don't use words like "retard".

Avoiding certain words is not enough in my opinion and I am not addressing you specifically Jeff I just mention it given the opportunity. The important is not to behave to others as if they are retards or idiots how you call them doesn't really matter.

[darling]

Originally posted by kittynh
I know some people are going to object, and that's fine. BUt, I can't tell you how good it felt to for once respect me own beliefs over a fear of people not liking me. I'm ready for the rebuffs. I think I can still be friends with those who disagree with me, but I like to think they are going to see it as a sign of my respect for them that I'm willing to tell them how I feel. Kitty that was so well said.

Usually if someone asks what I think I'll tell them, I usually hold off on the unsolicited advice. But maybe I'll rethink that a little now...

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yes but you know Mercutio this why people go to the University, to question their beliefs and to learn the critical thinking.
You might be surprised, and perhaps a bit disheartened, to see how many students feel entitled to have their cherished beliefs go unchallenged. They are, I think, in the minority, but their opinion is that they paid good money for their degree, and since they pay my salary they can dictate what I tell them.

The looks on my students faces yesterday when I told them that their sacred cows were fair game showed me that they were not used to this treatment. They welcomed it, I think, but looked quite surprised.

[bug_girl]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Yes but you know Mercutio this why people go to the University, to question their beliefs and to learn the critical thinking.


Oh Cleo, what an idealist! Students don't want to be challenged. they want to get their piece of paper that they see as a ticket to a job. I always start the semester with a quiz, and one of the questions is: why are you in college?
ususally over 95% say "to get a job" or "because my parents made me."
nothing about learning. and Merc, if you teach one of the required "core" courses, i pity you deeply. Intro bio was always a huge challenge to make students who didn't want to be there, who had a minimal grasp of mathematics, and who were deeply offended by evolution, try to get engaged in learning.
[oh dear, i think you pushed a button. better cut myself off here.]

Back on topic: Way to go Kitty!!!!!!

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Mercutio
You might be surprised, and perhaps a bit disheartened, to see how many students feel entitled to have their cherished beliefs go unchallenged. They are, I think, in the minority, but their opinion is that they paid good money for their degree, and since they pay my salary they can dictate what I tell them.

The looks on my students faces yesterday when I told them that their sacred cows were fair game showed me that they were not used to this treatment. They welcomed it, I think, but looked quite surprised.

There is a joke in the Greek Universities. The professor's desk in an amphitheatre is called " edra" and the Archibishop's chair is called " Kathedra". When I was at the University we used to laugh at the professors that they were preaching on their Kathedras instead of teaching.

I don't disagree with you but I have a question. Do you go teaching ready for the possibility that your views might be challenged? I am not refering to your scientific views of course because a student cannot seriously challenge the scientific views of a teacher but I am refering to the way you approach a theoritical matter or you think that a teacher cannot allow himself to doubt because he will lose his authority.

I am asking you because I observe lately this trend among skeptics. They enter a debate ready only to persuade the other although this is not what skepticism is about and I can't help but remembering of the missionaries when I see such behaviors.

I confess that the incident Kitty described with the book of Shermer ( who is not an atheist but an agnostic BTW) reminded me of that :)

And one last ( for the moment) remark: The younger we are the more absolute our opinions are and one of the desires of the youth is to question and debate the views of the teacher or of the authority in general so maybe some of your students are beyond the mentality : " I am paying you so you shut-up" .

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I don't disagree with you but I have a question. Do you go teaching ready for the possibility that your views might be challenged? I am not refering to your scientific views of course because a student cannot seriously challenge the scientific views of a teacher but I am refering to the way you approach a theoritical matter or you think that a teacher cannot allow himself to doubt because he will lose his authority.
I always ask them to challenge me, and I have changed significant views almost every semester! I am always prepared to say "I don't know" (which my students say is a refreshing change from the profs who know more than they really do) and to go find out.

I don't think of myself so much as an authority, but rather as a guide. Every tour is different, even of the same location.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by bug_girl


I always start the semester with a quiz, and one of the questions is: why are you in college?
ususally over 95% say "to get a job" or "because my parents made me."
nothing about learning.


Whoa!!! How poignant!!!

Oh to (re)instill the joy of learning... To just fill our brains with tons of stuff ...


What do we do that destroys the thirst for knowledge that comes naturally to preschoolers?

It must have something to do with taking the fun out of it...


Your comments have really made me think about what can be done to make kids ' want ' to go to school....

[geni]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I am not refering to your scientific views of course because a student cannot seriously challenge the scientific views of a teacher

Why not?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by bug_girl

Merc, if you teach one of the required "core" courses, i pity you deeply. Intro bio was always a huge challenge to make students who didn't want to be there, who had a minimal grasp of mathematics, and who were deeply offended by evolution, try to get engaged in learning. One of my favorite experiences was with a young woman from Kansas in one of my large intro classes (270 students). She introduced herself the first day (so polite!) and when I found out where she was from, I had to ask her opinion on the creationist debate. "I'm in favor of it; I am a creationist," was her reply. I assured her that I would do my level best to tear down the very pillars of her belief system, but that I would always welcome any challenge. The rules would be the same for each of us--back up your claims.

She eventually transfered back to Kansas...but I got a wonderful e-mail from her several months later, in which she thanked me for being the first person in her educational career to challenge her beliefs. She was reading some of the books I had recommended to her and, as they say, the scales were falling from her eyes.

Another pair of students used to come to my office regularly to argue about things from class. My favorite line from them "we got so angry with you, because you were tearing down everything we believed.....and the worst part was, you had evidence!"

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Oh to (re)instill the joy of learning... To just fill our brains with tons of stuff ...


What do we do that destroys the thirst for knowledge that comes naturally to preschoolers?

It must have something to do with taking the fun out of it...


It is exactly "To just fill our brains with tons of stuff" that is taking the fun out of it. Teaching science as a long list of fact will bore even the most enthusiastic kid sooner or later.

I´m just reading Phil Plait´s "Bad Astronomy" - and, boy, that book is great... (and that comes from someone who dropped physics as soon as he possibly could!)

[El Greco]

Honesty is good. Adaptability and diplomacy are better :)

If you are surrounded by 100 fanatic Muslims ready to stone you if you don't say you accept Allah, are you going to be honest ? If a person close to you is going to die in a couple of months and you know that telling her is going to ruin her last days, are you going to be honest ? If your girlfriend has gone to a lot of trouble to prepare a Valentine's day dinner and the result is awful, are you going to be honest ?

[SkepticScott]

Great stories Kitty! Thank you. I did my own low-key method Monday when I wore my "Friendly Neighborhood Atheist" sweatshirt on my flight home. I saw several people eyeing it and one person asked me where I got it.

[bug_girl]

i can only speak for the sciences, but the emphasis on memorization really manages to kill a lot of the fun of learning.

And, joy! "No child left behind" with its emphasis on standardized testing will just make things much worse. There really isn't a way to test problem solving and creativity with a scantron sheet. It takes lots of time and energy, something that i'm pretty sure Merc will agree is always in short supply in a teacher's life.

[kittynh]

well, el greco....when my cousin was dying I went and bought her crystals and woo woo books (as she asked). After she died I came to the conclusion that instead of helping her, we prolonged the time that she still believed that her bone cancer would be cured. It didn't matter the doctors said it was going to be fatal, she (and we) could find lots of people to tell her she "has a chance" if only she tried this or that. Yeah, the time to be honest is when the chips are down. I'd be nice, but I wouldn't go out to the woo woo shops for her. And I'd ask her why she didn't trust her doctors (who so obviously cared). One relative said, "If caring could cure cancer, those doctors and nurses would have saved her".

As for Muslim country, well, my daughter lived in a muslim country, and hopes to return. I'd be honest, but also say that I love their culture and history, and their language is so very beautiful (Kitten is an Arabic major). Would I wear a head scarf, yes, because it's the law. I'd be respectful, but I'd still speak the truth.

and OPPS I DID IT AGAIN! I took on my dental assistant! She always goes on and on about her fundie beliefs. So today I told her, "well, I listened to you for 2 minutes, and today I'd like to ask you to listen to my beliefs for 2 minutes." She said, "I don't have to listen to your beliefs because I know I'm right." I pointed out that I didn't believe in her god as her god believed children should burn in hell for going trick or treating, and that kids having fun wasn't a good enough reason for eternal damnation. She left the room and another assistant came in. So, I lost that round, but I kept my dignity I think. Look out world! I'm on fire!

[bpesta22]

Thanks a lot, Kitty.

A female friend just asked "if I looked fat in this"

Your approach didn't work so well:(



:)

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Chaos


It is exactly "To just fill our brains with tons of stuff" that is taking the fun out of it. Teaching science as a long list of fact will bore even the most enthusiastic kid sooner or later.



I see how that sounded, but it wasn't my intention.

I meant ' filling it with tons of ' fun ' stuff, like "Bad Astronomy" and " How Things Work "....:)

[Lisa]

Originally posted by kittynh


and OPPS I DID IT AGAIN! I took on my dental assistant! She always goes on and on about her fundie beliefs. So today I told her, "well, I listened to you for 2 minutes, and today I'd like to ask you to listen to my beliefs for 2 minutes." She said, "I don't have to listen to your beliefs because I know I'm right." I pointed out that I didn't believe in her god as her god believed children should burn in hell for going trick or treating, and that kids having fun wasn't a good enough reason for eternal damnation. She left the room and another assistant came in. So, I lost that round, but I kept my dignity I think. Look out world! I'm on fire!
Go Kitty Go!!!
People like that aren't worth your time or attention. Talk to your cats, they're more intelligent.

[frisian]

Originally posted by kittynh
I pointed out that I didn't believe in her god as her god believed children should burn in hell for going trick or treating, and that kids having fun wasn't a good enough reason for eternal damnation.

:D

wtf?

What god is this?

[roger]

Mercutio, you teach biology in NH and get resistance to teaching evolution?

I find that interesting as I grew up in a pretty small town in NH, and took biology in high school. We were taught the standard history on theories of life (spontaneous generation, lamark, evolution), and I don't remember anyone in the class having a real problem with it, though of course some of the religious students posited that God might be directing evolution.

I wonder if creationism and, more specifically, Creation "Science", being widely discussed/aired, has had a negative impact on student's attitudes to evolution.

[El Greco]

Kitty

Actually I also have in mind a real person who's going to die soon. She's the mother of a friend and she has an inoperable tumor. It's so obvious that she will collapse if she finds out the truth... I'm not saying her relatives should resort to woowooism (and they don't, actually) but it is very clear that the truth will be devastating.

From a skeptical point of view, I also don't think there is any reason to consider honesty as the "best" course in every case. It's true that this world needs more honesty, but I believe total honesty is plain brutal. There are many cases where it will endanger or even destroy someone's social and professional life.

Furthermore, if someone wants to convey a skeptical message to a dogmatic believer, I think that the naked truth may have completely undesirable effects. It might be far more effective to pretend you share his/her beliefs and then gradually try to convert him/her. May I ask what is your goal with your dental assistant and how do you plan to achieve it ?

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by El Greco
It's so obvious that she will collapse if she finds out the truth...I can't tell you anything about your friend's mother, but I believe that Penn's point was about respecting the strength of the other person enough to not hide or sugarcoat an important truth. I find that people in general are a lot stronger than they appear (or indeed than they believe of themselves). It might be that someone in this situation would appreciate the time to take care of unfinished business.
I believe total honesty is plain brutal.I don't know if you differ much from Penn's position on this. After a few rounds back and forth with The Bad Astronomer on the panel, it seemed to come down to not hiding your opinion for the sake of kowtowing to a majority view. Whether a specific truth is brutal enough to warrant discretion is going to vary in each individual's judgement. Penn's tolerance for brutality may a bit higher than average. ;)
It might be far more effective to pretend you share his/her beliefs and then gradually try to convert him/her.It is this sneaky type of approach to which Penn was most strongly objecting. I don't see what might be gained by outright deception. I would instead show genuine sympathy for a position honestly held by another, but would make clear that I did not share it, and why.

The opportunity may arise shortly for me. I have carpeting being installed by someone who is a bodyguard for Trinity Broadcasting Network, and who sings in the choir. I've half agreed to come over to his house and help with his computer sometime.

--James

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by frisian
What god is this? This one. (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0032/0032_01.asp)

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Electric Monk
It is this sneaky type of approach to which Penn was most strongly objecting. I don't see what might be gained by outright deception.

I have the feeling that sometimes this sneaky approach is your only chance for any kind of approach. Many times people will become hostile and totally unreceptive as soon as they realize that you question a belief that they value so highly to have practically based their whole life philosophy on it.

[Electric Monk]

Originally posted by El Greco
I have the feeling that sometimes this sneaky approach is your only chance for any kind of approach. Many times people will become hostile and totally unreceptive as soon as they realize that you question a belief that they value so highly to have practically based their whole life philosophy on it. Well, I'll say that I have encountered very few people like that personally. This could certainly vary by location and what social groups you participate in.

I suspect that an open approach will pay dividends with even these people. Let them run away. Your words will have more effect than they seem to at first.

--James

[kittynh]

Originally posted by El Greco
Kitty





Furthermore, if someone wants to convey a skeptical message to a dogmatic believer, I think that the naked truth may have completely undesirable effects. It might be far more effective to pretend you share his/her beliefs and then gradually try to convert him/her. May I ask what is your goal with your dental assistant and how do you plan to achieve it ?

well, with the dental assistant I think my point was more for myself than her. I've listened to her for the past 5 years. I go to this office as the dentist is very good - and so is this assistant. But, I just have always wondered why she gets to talk about her beliefs, and I have always kept my mouth shut? Isn't is ok that I talk too? If I'm nice enough to listen to her, she should listen to me. She was a bit taken aback, I honestly don't think she's converted anyone at the dental office. But, I made sure she listened to me, and the dentist also heard. He actually called me this evening and said he has talked to her about talking religion in the office. I told him I didn't mind her talking about her religion if she was willing to listen to my beliefs. I'll gladly go back to her, as she is very good at her job.

As for someone that is dying, I know in other cultures there is a different belief about telling someone they are dying. I was told once (but don't know if it is true) that in Japan people are rarely if ever told they have a terminal illness.

Would I ever be as blunt as Penn? Of course not! What I was refering to is my honesty with my beliefs, not in telling my friends that new hair color really is the pits! Being an artist, I've learned the artist motto, "there are PAID critics..." which means "art is in the eye of the beholder, so keep your critism in check."

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by kittynh

and OPPS I DID IT AGAIN! I took on my dental assistant! She always goes on and on about her fundie beliefs. So today I told her, "well, I listened to you for 2 minutes, and today I'd like to ask you to listen to my beliefs for 2 minutes." She said, "I don't have to listen to your beliefs because I know I'm right." I pointed out that I didn't believe in her god as her god believed children should burn in hell for going trick or treating, and that kids having fun wasn't a good enough reason for eternal damnation. She left the room and another assistant came in. So, I lost that round, but I kept my dignity I think. Look out world! I'm on fire!

Actually, Kitty, I think you won that round. You stayed true to yourself and she shut up. Good job, and a "You go, girl!"

To tell you the truth, I have always been outspoken about my lack of belief, although I don't walk in to a room and scream "I'm an atheist," but should the subject arise, I will not be quiet. And the few times I have been quiet, I was ashamed of myself later for not speaking up.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Kitty, I told your story to Cynthia and she was surprised you weren't busted in the chops. Be careful out there.

~~ Paul

[Electric Monk]

OK, one more thought on this issue that I just remembered from the panel discussion. (budddyh alluded to it in the other thread, but didn't make this point. Also, I want to ensure that at least half of my posts mention Julia. :) )

When Julia Sweeney's brother, Michael was dying of cancer, she tried to convince him and herself that thinking positive thoughts was going to help him get better. Penn gave Julia a call and told her that she shouldn't put that extra burden on him: that if he didn't get better, it was his fault. Julia testified that this made things easier for both herself and her brother.

--James

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by roger
Mercutio, you teach biology in NH and get resistance to teaching evolution?
Psychology...but since we are dealing with living organisms, we have to go back to natural selection for a foundation. And the first student I spoke of was an import, from Kansas. The other two were objecting more to the idea that the "human mind" isn't immune from its biological (and evolutionary) roots. Hey, we even get that view here on the forum.

On the other hand, My mom did teach biology, and in the bible belt. She found (I like this) more resistance to humans and monkeys being related than she did to humans and cows being related.

So I could have had it much worse...

[bug_girl]

Originally posted by roger
Mercutio, you teach biology in NH and get resistance to teaching evolution?...
I wonder if creationism and, more specifically, Creation "Science", being widely discussed/aired, has had a negative impact on student's attitudes to evolution.

ok, i'll take that one. i taught biology, specifically an undergraduate (400 level) and graduate course in Evolution, deep, deep in the bible belt. I eventually quit after 4 years of constant harassment, a student assault, and death threats.
i was denounced from pulpits. one of my students had required weekly public confession that she was taking my class (it was required for graduation).
my student evaluations were stolen one semester and altered.
While most of my students weren't happy with the class when they started, by the end they were ok, and were even starting to think. The students i had the most trouble with were students who weren't in my class, and just assumed they knew what we were up to.
It wasn't just me--A history prof covering victorians had an almost empty class one week when he covered Origin of the Species--as a literary and historic event. They just didn't want to even hear it.

oh dear, i'm ranting here. some good books:
god's warriors, Wilcox
Conjuring Science, Toumey
God's Own Scientists, Toumey

[kittynh]

I know Paul. I'm not the size of Penn, but I am making sure to be VERY polite (except to that dental assistant...I've been waiting for giving her just a bit of her medicine for years...)

On another note, I did come clean with my mother in law about what kind of conference Pool Boy and I had attended. I didn't say it was anything than a skeptics conference. She said that she was glad I had told her the truth, but that she wouldn't baby sit next year since she believes in UFOs (she saw one in California) and ghosts. She also hates Penn and Teller! That really set her off. She said too bad I couldn't go next year. I told her that there was a scholarship program and maybe Kitten2 should apply next year, that there were 12 year old twins at the meeting I just attended! Oopppsss! I did it again! I think she is going to apply for cutody of Kitten2. Anyway, I did come honest, and I do think she is appreciative that I have done so. I had been telling her it was just an "education conference" (which it is). But I did feel badly at taking advantage of her.

[Zep]

Originally posted by bug_girl
oh dear, i'm ranting here. some good books:
god's warriors, Wilcox
Conjuring Science, Toumey
God's Own Scientists, Toumey Telling Lies For God Professor Ian Plimmer

[bug_girl]

i meant to add:
the Wilcox book is a scholarly historic account, but the toumey books, particularly Gods Scientists, are quite fun to read and interesting.

Kitty, I bet your mother in law comes around by next year--if nothing else, she'll want to get the kids away from your bad influence :)

[Zep]

Originally posted by kittynh
...but that she wouldn't baby sit next year since she believes in UFOs (she saw one in California) and ghosts. She also hates Penn and Teller! That really set her off.Huh? I mean...what the...ummm...

DOUBLE HUH?? :confused:

So...if she hates (say) ice-cream and you ate some without her knowledge and then found out later you did, she would...disown you or something?

Reality check, please???

[Girl 6]

Originally posted by kittynh
I know Paul. I'm not the size of Penn, but I am making sure to be VERY polite (except to that dental assistant...I've been waiting for giving her just a bit of her medicine for years...)

On another note, I did come clean with my mother in law about what kind of conference Pool Boy and I had attended. I didn't say it was anything than a skeptics conference. She said that she was glad I had told her the truth, but that she wouldn't baby sit next year since she believes in UFOs (she saw one in California) and ghosts. She also hates Penn and Teller! That really set her off. She said too bad I couldn't go next year. I told her that there was a scholarship program and maybe Kitten2 should apply next year, that there were 12 year old twins at the meeting I just attended! Oopppsss! I did it again! I think she is going to apply for cutody of Kitten2. Anyway, I did come honest, and I do think she is appreciative that I have done so. I had been telling her it was just an "education conference" (which it is). But I did feel badly at taking advantage of her.

Yes, well, telling the truth does have costs associated with it.

I actually don't think you took advantage of her. Is it really her concern WHERE you go and what kind of conference you're going to? That's bordering on obsession and just plain nosiness.

However, if it made you feel better and if it didn't really hurt her, then it's quite alright. :)

G6

[Lisa]

Kitty, how shall I put this? ARRRRGGGGHHHH.
Okay, I feel better.
The conference isn't only about religion. Ask your mother in law how she feels about alternative medicie. People are dying needlessly because quacks want to line their pockets. She believes in UFO's? Maybe she should attend a conference and talk with Phil Plait. Heck, last year we had both Phil and the astronomer royale of Scotland.
With the mix of people we get at TAMs, you can discuss anything. Bring that 13 year old next year. I promise I won't talk her into getting a tattoo.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Lisa
Heck, last year we had both Phil and the astronomer royale of Scotland.

And Jack Horkheimer...

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by El Greco
Kitty

Actually I also have in mind a real person who's going to die soon. She's the mother of a friend and she has an inoperable tumor. It's so obvious that she will collapse if she finds out the truth... I'm not saying her relatives should resort to woowooism (and they don't, actually) but it is very clear that the truth will be devastating.



This is one of the ongoing debates in end-of-life care. Clinically, it has been my experience that people told of a terminal diagnosis may well "collapse" or become demoralized or grieve. However, knowing the truth gives them a chance to get ready to go. People use the time to take care of legal, financial, spiritual and relationship issues. We once helped an elderly man dying of lung cancer find his high school sweetheart so he could tell her how much he'd always loved her. Other people plan their funerals or take an active part in planning their end of life care and this helps them deal with the grief. These people are also spared the alarm and fear that would accompany symptom progression. It is difficult to die of cancer and not realize it is happening. Patients who are not told often know anyway and sometimes are angry that they were not told.

We are currently doing studies to clarify some of these issues and we've followed almost 200 people from diagnosis until death. Fewer than 10% express a wish for hastened death. None have said they regretted being told they were terminal.

At present, it is extremely rare for our docs not to tell their patients the truth. I know this happens more in Europe.

Personally, I'd want to know. I have to agree that while the truth may hurt, it is respectful to be honest.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
We are currently doing studies to clarify some of these issues and we've followed almost 200 people from diagnosis until death. Fewer than 10% express a wish for hastened death. None have said they regretted being told they were terminal.

Of course they don't regret it. I would like to know myself. Truth draws like a magnet, no matter how harsh it may be. But this doesn't mean that truth would make my last days any better. I am almost certain I would get depressed.

That 10% doesn't look small to me. On the contrary, it is an indication that an even greater percentage were made miserable although not to the point that they would ask for euthanasia.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by El Greco



That 10% doesn't look small to me. On the contrary, it is an indication that an even greater percentage were made miserable although not to the point that they would ask for euthanasia.


oops, I left it out! About 25% report clinically relevant symptoms of depression. Not really different than other medically ill populations. There is also a great deal of anxiety about pain and other symptoms but this can be addressed with education about treatment strategies. I didn't mean to minimize the suffering of these people. I just wanted to point out that they know the truth, and some are distressed by it, but most are glad to have it. Rarely does anyone completely fall apart psychologically.