How many atheists ?

[El Greco]

I've been reading several statistics and they are contradictive. For example, one source says that in Russia the atheists+agnostics are 60%, and another source that they are 20%. In USA the number is somewhere between 1 and 7% ? In general, the countries with the most atheists and/or agnostics seem to be some former eastern block countries like Russia and Czech Republic, France, Netherlands and the Scandinavic countries.

Are there any reliable statistics ?

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by El Greco
Are there any reliable statistics ?

Even out of context...I'm going to say no.

[c4ts]

Go to RR and ask them what percentage of the world is atheist. Compare that result to your statistics. If it matches, it's wrong.

[Skeptical Greg]

I'd be interested in seeing the questions that generated the answers..


I suggest that a lot of people who are atheists, don't know they are, and wouldn't answer ' Yes ' to a ' Yes or No ' question of the form:

" Are you an Atheist ? "


I also believe, that when asked: " Do you believe in God? "

a lot of people say " Yes, but..... "

... and only the " Yes" part, gets counted....


If you follow the tennants of Christianity, and go how people behave, instead of what they say, I suspect those figures would look a lot different....

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by El Greco
I've been reading several statistics and they are contradictive. For example, one source says that in Russia the atheists+agnostics are 60%, and another source that they are 20%. In USA the number is somewhere between 1 and 7% ? In general, the countries with the most atheists and/or agnostics seem to be some former eastern block countries like Russia and Czech Republic, France, Netherlands and the Scandinavic countries.

Are there any reliable statistics ?
First, it really depends on how people would define the word "god".

Second, keep in mind Fundamentalism was born in the grand ol' USA, lots of Christians and not so many atheists.

Here is some helpful information from PositiveAtheism.org (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9187.htm):
Encarta (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/martin.htm) suggests the percentage of "weak" atheists (all nontheists -- ranging from those who simply lack a god belief to those who assert that all god claims are falsehood) to be significantly above the incidence of Muslims and slightly above that of Roman Catholics.

However, the most thorough assessment of religious trends lives on adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/). To wade through these over 57,000 statistics would be quite a chore. Suffice it to say that if by atheist you mean somebody who consciously and deliberately rejects as falsehood the claim that gods exist, we're about four percent. If by atheist you mean somebody who lacks belief in gods for whatever reason (and this form of atheism is compatible with the agnosticism that simply doesn't know), then we're over one-fifth of the world's population.

[trasa]

I read the posts in this thread and I wondered why you were all so lazy. Finding statistics on the percentage on atheists, how hard can that be?

Well, now I know. And it scares me. I've search now on google and in the Statistics Sweden, and nothing. I tell you I am scared.

And here is why. Since a few years back Church may no longer take (I don't know the proper word) taxes from people that doesn't want to. If you want to exit the Swedish State Church, you may do so. And also you are no longer born into that church. (Don't ask me why we ever had a state church, it's enough said that reason finally has prevailed) --- But still it's hard to find details on the number of persons that actually belongs to the church and who among these that are believers.

Of course, finding is only about seraching in the right place, but could it be that the church doesn't want to boast with their number of believers? Could it be... shrinking? (Which it is, that much I know)

By the way, last year, I made 1200 SEK (150$) by not belonging to big bad church daddy.

[evildave]

Then there's always the Census data: and this is bound to be buggered, because most people really don't want a government that's full of fundies, who at the same time they're openly trying to establish a Christian theocracy (Faith Based Initiatives (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/) ) are also busy trying to establish "security measures" that will deny people free movement, a flag set on their census data that says "NOT A GOD-FEARING CHRISTIAN" can't help your score there.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040118-114335-2930r.htm

Even at the last census, and the census before that, I knew enough to answer "Methodist" to their invasive "religion" question. Who needs the extra exposure of having the government know directly?

Who'd have ever guessed "Big Brother" would be in the religious brotherhood sense? Oh, wait, anybody who's ever experienced a good, god-fearing theocracy up-close.

[Wally]

I think a question that would get you closer to the truth would be what are the percentages of the population that are and are not superstitious. In a society like Soviet Russia the powers that be could suppress organized religion to a certain degree, but generic superstition would be much more difficult to control. After all the church is just regimented superstition.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by evildave
Then there's always the Census data: and this is bound to be buggered, because most people really don't want a government that's full of fundies, who at the same time they're openly trying to establish a Christian theocracy (Faith Based Initiatives (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/) ) are also busy trying to establish "security measures" that will deny people free movement, a flag set on their census data that says "NOT A GOD-FEARING CHRISTIAN" can't help your score there.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040118-114335-2930r.htm

Even at the last census, and the census before that, I knew enough to answer "Methodist" to their invasive "religion" question. Who needs the extra exposure of having the government know directly?

Who'd have ever guessed "Big Brother" would be in the religious brotherhood sense? Oh, wait, anybody who's ever experienced a good, god-fearing theocracy up-close.

Do you really think we have to worry about that?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Do you really think we have to worry about that?
I'm a real scared! :re:

*Grabs blanket*

Hold me.

[Dancing David]

Perhaps in the former eastern Bloc counties they are worried about loosing thier standing in the communist party if they answer 'yes' to god. Considering the potential for the rise of Communism(act Two) in those countries, they might hedge thier bets, It couldn't have anything to do with a school system that teaches religion as bunco.

I notice that the percentage is very close to the number of Americans willing to admit that they are homosexual? Is is something about Americans and telling the truth that is reflected in the statistics?

[Jas]

trasa...I think the word you're looking for is 'tithe'

I think the numebr of atheists would definitely vary from country to country, seeing as, as someone pointed out in an earlier post, fundementalism is basically an American ting. A friend of mine grew up in Russia (moved here at wuite a young age), and she's an atheist, simply because she was never really introduced to "God" at a young age, and therefore, has no need to inject the supernatural in her life (unlike others, who, having grown up with such a concept, are hard put to dismiss it).

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Dancing David

...
I notice that the percentage is very close to the number of Americans willing to admit that they are homosexual? Is is something about Americans and telling the truth that is reflected in the statistics?

I think it has more to do with fear of the ' repercussions ' of telling the truth...

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by evildave
who at the same time they're openly trying to establish a Christian theocracy (Faith Based Initiatives (http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/fbci/) )


Could you be kind enough to find for us where it specifically mentions that they are trying to establish a Christian theocracy or any theocracy at all? Thanks...


a flag set on their census data that says "NOT A GOD-FEARING CHRISTIAN" can't help your score there.


Please. You are being emotional, as no census form says that. You are also claiming in effect that the census is the means by which the government is participating in some conspiracy to use your religious information to prosecute, or something, the non-religious?


Even at the last census, and the census before that, I knew enough to answer "Methodist" to their invasive "religion" question. Who needs the extra exposure of having the government know directly?


Find me one person who was pestered over their religion by the government after filling out their religious perferences on a census form. Just one.....

[evildave]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


Do you really think we have to worry about that?

Why should you worry about them using your census data, attached to your name, for things like CAPPS II?

Heck, besides the problem of how many people get access to it, and the fact that it has a predicted error rate of 4~5%, and the metrics that will be applied are "classified", it seems to me that answering the wrong way on a census question like "Religion", (especially saying you're Muslim) could have a negative impact on your air travel plans: YOU CAN'T.

http://www.sacobserver.com/news/012104/airport_security_programs.shtml
http://www.dontspyonus.com/gates.html


Originally posted by T'ai Chi

Could you be kind enough to find for us where it specifically mentions that they are trying to establish a Christian theocracy or any theocracy at all? Thanks...

When did communists ever specifically mention they'd be rounding people up and killing them, torturing them, or putting them in internment camps until they die?

When did the Nazis specifically mention to their citizens that they'd be annihilating all Jews, cripples, and other minority groups?


Please. You are being emotional, as no census form says that. You are also claiming in effect that the census is the means by which the government is participating in some conspiracy to use your religious information to prosecute, or something, the non-religious?


In World War II, people who marked "Japanese" on their census forms for "Race" were placed in prison camps. (See below)

What? We have the federal government using NASA to try to reverse-engineer census microdata (you'd think the NSA would be the agency for this, but obviously the organization for aerospace research is the one they use - go figure), and Congress only too willing to pass "anti-terrorist" labelled acts to remove any semblence to privacy or even due process from people's lives. Dubya's been only too happy to sign these acts into law. Using your census data in such a matter is only a vote away.

I'd rather keep my defenses up, thank you.


Find me one person who was pestered over their religion by the government after filling out their religious perferences on a census form. Just one.....

http://www.epic.org/privacy/census/

Risks of the Census

The census performs many useful functions for society. However, there is widespread evidence of the misuse of census data. Hitler notably used the European Census in his conquests across Europe. The misuse of census data can be found in much of the world, including in our own nation. Even recently, privacy risks lead to public statements by politicians regarding the intrusiveness of census questions. The Washington Post quoted Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott of encouraging citizens not to answer invasive questions.

* D'Vera Cohn, Census Too Nosy? Don't Answer Invasive Questions, GOP Suggests, Washington Post, Mar. 30, 2000, at A1

The Civil War

Along with the benefits of census information for war planning, the census can be used for methods of destruction as a war tactic. General Sherman used census data to locate targets during the famed Civil War March though Georgia.

World War II and Japanese Internment

A specific example of the privacy risks of the US census can also be found in the 1940s. During World War II, Japanese-American citizens were rounded up and sent to internment camps. The Census Bureau might not have necessarily given out individual Japanese-American names or numbers, but the Bureau did work with US War Department to offer aggregated data about certain localities. Although there is still a lack of consensus concerning specific conclusions, the Census Bureau has issued a formal apology and now reports that the Bureau did not protect Japanese-Americans.

It has been recorded that even before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt ordered the Census Bureau to collect information on "American-born and foreign-born Japanese" from the Census data lists. Information was gathered from the 1930 and 1940 censuses on all Japanese-Americans and then given to the FBI and top military officials. These sources point directly to the census information as one of the reasons that led to the internment of almost 110,000 Japanese-Americans on the West Coast, two-thirds of whom were U.S. citizens.

United Kingdom

A recent example of abuse from abroad can be found in the United Kingdom. It recently has reached the public view that compulsory transfers were considered in Northern Ireland in 1972. A UK government top-secret memo has surfaced describing a plan to relocate Irish Catholics. The plan was written with census data. Although never implemented, the use of census data for non-statistical purposes has caused great concern in Europe.

....

Germany

Germany has a contrasting history in census reporting. The most extreme example of census abuse is Hitler's use of the census to track minorities for extermination during the NAZI regime. Although this example remains perhaps the most horrifying abuse of the census, Germany's modern use of the census is exactly the opposite. In the aftermath of World War II, privacy protections were placed in the German Constitution. In the 1980s, the German Government instituted a law requiring more information to be provided on the national census. After a public outcry, the law was challenged in court. The issue was brought before the German Federal Constitutional Court by representatives who had been instrumental in the passage of the first German Data Protection Act during the 1970s. The court found the census law unconstitutional based upon what the court termed a fundamental right to informational self-determination implicit in the German Constitution.

After the court decision, the legislature amended the German Data Protection Act in 1990 to include the right of informational self-determination regarding government uses of information as well as information use in the private sector. By including private uses as well, Germany created one of the most broadly reaching privacy protections relating to the census.

European privacy concerns over the census have appeared in strong numbers. Mayer reports on several surveys taken in the 1970's regarding risks over privacy of census reports. In particular England, Germany, the Netherlands, and Northern Ireland reportedly protested in large numbers against the census' undermining of information privacy.



In general, I can encourage people to pretend problems with privacy and civil rights are "impossible" in the U.S., or I can encourage people to proactively read up on current events and history, pay attention to news events, and decide for themselves.

The latter is the only responsible course of action.

Go bury your own damned heads in the sand, if you so desire.


Added: Another interesting tidbit from http://www.epic.org/privacy/census/ relating to uniquely identifying people from publicly available census microdata.

Re-Identification

Public use datasets contain 'anonymous' microdata, information on individual people and organizations where the explicit identifiers have been stripped away. Microdata can then be transferred even in blocks of just a few individuals. Under 13 USC § 9, the Census Bureau is required to make sure that the identities cannot be "reasonably deduced." Concepts of "reasonable deduction," however, are changing quickly.

Re-identification is the process of linking anonymous data to the actual identity of an individual. Carnegie Mellon Professor Latanya Sweeney has demonstrated that anonymous data sets can often be readily re-identified. In one experiment, Sweeney, using 1990 Census data, demonstrated that individuals often have demographic values that occur infrequently. Since these values occur infrequently, they allow the re-identification of individuals in putatively anonymous datasets. Sweeney found in her report Uniqueness of Simple Demographics in the U.S. Population:

...87% (216 million of 248 million) of the population in the United States had reported characteristics that likely made them unique based only on {5-digit ZIP, gender, date of birth}. About half of the U.S. population (132 million of 248 million or 53%) are likely to be uniquely identified by only {place, gender, date of birth}, where place is basically the city, town, or municipality in which the person resides. And even at the county level, {county, gender, date of birth} are likely to uniquely identify 18% of the U.S. population. In general, few characteristics are needed to uniquely identify a person.

Re-identification can also be enhanced through the use of commercially available or public records databases. Census data can be combined with other datasets in order to identify individuals. Some re-identification software is available commercially.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by El Greco
I've been reading several statistics and they are contradictive. For example, one source says that in Russia the atheists+agnostics are 60%, and another source that they are 20%. In USA the number is somewhere between 1 and 7% ? In general, the countries with the most atheists and/or agnostics seem to be some former eastern block countries like Russia and Czech Republic, France, Netherlands and the Scandinavic countries.

Are there any reliable statistics ?

Even with completely honest statistics, you can have great discrepancies because not all studies are measuring the same thing.

For example a public opinion poll in one country, census data in another, church rolls in yet another.

This doesn't even consider unconscious bias, flawed methodology, and outright lying.

[Eos of the Eons]

evildave, some of those sites had my eyebrows jumping up and down, but you do know more about this topic than I do by a long shot.

If I remember correctly, a census taker came to my door door and asked a few questions. They didn't take names. Just ages, sex, etc.

I don't ever remember putting my name on a census.

I think it helps get more honest answers that way.

Does anyone else remember the Canadian census? My memory is quite vague on it.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by evildave

When did communists ever specifically mention they'd be rounding people up and killing them, torturing them, or putting them in internment camps until they die?

When did the Nazis specifically mention to their citizens that they'd be annihilating all Jews, cripples, and other minority groups?


Now you're being more emotional, comparing Bush and the government to Communists and Nazi's.

Please. :D

I guess you couldn't find where in Faith Based Initiatives they said they said Christian theocracy or any theocracy at all, which means that is your belief. And you know what people around here say about beliefs with no evidence.....



In World War II, people who marked "Japanese" on their census forms for "Race" were placed in prison camps. (See below)


Japanese is not a religion.

I asked if you had any examples of evil things being done to people because of their religion after they marked down their religion on a census form.

So far you've presented non-religious examples, and one political/religious which wasn't even implemented! How about you just give us the name of one single person... just one!

[evildave]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Now you're being more emotional, comparing Bush and the government to Communists and Nazi's.

Please. :D

I guess you couldn't find where in Faith Based Initiatives they said they said Christian theocracy or any theocracy at all, which means that is your belief. And you know what people around here say about beliefs with no evidence.....


[/b]

Japanese is not a religion.

I asked if you had any examples of evil things being done to people because of their religion after they marked down their religion on a census form.

So far you've presented non-religious examples, and one political/religious which wasn't even implemented! How about you just give us the name of one single person... just one! [/B]

There you go putting words in people's mouths again: I said they wanted a Christian theocracy. Just because they'll be burning people at the stake for heresy doesn't make them communists or nazis.

1. The Nazis used census data extensively.

2. I could go through the cases where Middle Eastern census data is used outrageously, but hey, you probably don't think that counts.

Just pretend it's all OK, and the government never does anything "bad". It's OK. They're your BEST friends. Pay them extra on your taxes this year to show them how you feel. They're taking out loans that will impoverish your grandchildren, but it's all fine. Politics isn't anybody's business at all. Just relax.

[evildave]

Of course, the other half of the (ON TOPIC) question is:

"How many Christians?"

After all, where do you assign the cut-off for being "Christian" enough without establishing a religious standard?

Are there really two billion or so, or is this number padded by all the genuinely secular people who never see the inside of a church, never bothered to read a Bible, and who merely shrug and blurt some sect or other when asked?

Certainly, when Christians start saying things like "They're not really Christians!", it makes you wonder just how many there are in the world. According to whose standard you apply for "REAL Christian", you get anywhere from the original couple of billion or so, to "Us three are the only REAL Christians, so... DIE, HEATHEN!".

[T'ai Chi]

Evildave,

I fail to be intimidated by emotional pleas. Nazis? Communists? Christian theocracies? The government using census data to do evil things to people based on their religion? Whatever.

You presented no evidence whatsoever each time I asked, so phhhfft!


Just pretend it's all OK, and the government never does anything "bad". It's OK. They're your BEST friends. Pay them extra on your taxes this year to show them how you feel. They're taking out loans that will impoverish your grandchildren, but it's all fine. Politics isn't anybody's business at all. Just relax.

Well since you utterly failed to present evidence, I will. :D

I'm thinking you'll pay your taxes this year too for some strange reason...

[evildave]

Pleas to emotion?

I cite the CAPPS II stories, the stories about the government using NASA to reverse-engineer Census data to names for their airport junk, the examples of historical abuse of Census data, and you don't see any problem at all?

Talk about complacency. With that sort of attitude, it's a sure thing you don't even vote. I mean, why bother? Whoever ends up in power will do what is best, no matter what, right?

[evildave]

Not to mention the variety of lovely state bills and measures for establishing theocracy:

http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills041/biltxt/intro/HB0911I.htm
(Teach creationism as science)

http://www.kingjamestextbook.com/pages/1/index.htm
(Make the state pay to give away free bibles at public schools for every grade, and dedicate study time for it every year.)

The kooks are there. Some are already in the government. Like Judge Roy Moore, or Dubya.

Your complacency only empowers them.

Ahh, here's an interesting site...

http://theocracywatch.org/

Our fearless leaders doing what they perceive to be "The Right Thing": Establishing the United States of Jesus.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by evildave
Not to mention the variety of lovely state bills and measures for establishing theocracy ...

I think you are over-reacting.

I am opposed to government funding of "faith based" outfits, just as you are. Yes I agree that this trend absolutely stinks. I am like you in this respect.

A theocracy is a state in which priests rule. Or imams or what have you.

I am not pleased that the Salvation Army and the like can now pick my pocket. But that is not a theocracy.

The UK has an established church. It gets government money to keep going. This is wrong in my opinion. But the UK is far from being a theocracy.

[CWL]

Originally posted by El Greco
I've been reading several statistics and they are contradictive. For example, one source says that in Russia the atheists+agnostics are 60%, and another source that they are 20%. In USA the number is somewhere between 1 and 7% ? In general, the countries with the most atheists and/or agnostics seem to be some former eastern block countries like Russia and Czech Republic, France, Netherlands and the Scandinavic countries.

Are there any reliable statistics ?

Below are some statistics from www.adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html).

Are they reliable? Who knows? Are any statistics?

[CWL]

Oh. I forgot - the below links may be of interest in the context:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Nonreligious

and

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by CWL


Below are some statistics from www.adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html).

Are they reliable? Who knows? Are any statistics?

I notice that we Jews are off the radar, number-wise. Yet we control the world. Yes this Mad Arab adheres to what must be the winning side. Not the religious part, just the international conspiracy part.

International Jewish Conspiracy
Since 3760 BCE
The world's oldest family owned international conspiracy.

:p :p :p :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


International Jewish Conspiracy
Since 3760 BCE
The world's oldest family owned international conspiracy.

:p :p :p :p

A bit of clarification. Of course there weren't Jews as such in 3760 BCE, that's just when the international conspiracy started. Ever wonder why that's year zero on the Jewish calendar? :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by CWL
Oh. I forgot - the below links may be of interest in the context:

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Nonreligious

and

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

So "East Germany" is highest on the list of non-believers? I wonder what their answers are now without a gun to their heads? :p

Yes the "West Germans" also had a gun to their heads, but no one was insisting on a position on this issue.

[evildave]

East Germany has been integrated into Germany since 1990, so basically any poll data newer 1990 should have the "no gun to your head" effect. So find something newer than a 1991 report.

Of course, the born-again and culty types have had a few years of hanging around college campuses and looking for unfortunates of various flavors to swell their ranks.