Tear Down That Wall (child raping priests)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Tear Down That Wall (http://www.slate.com/toolbar.aspx?action=print&id=2248557)
Christopher Hitchens in Slate

Here's a little thought experiment on practical ethics. Suppose that you are having a drink with a new acquaintance and the subject of law-breaking comes up. "Ever been in any trouble with the authorities?"

You may perhaps mention your arrest at a demonstration, your smuggling of excess duty-free goods, that brush with the narcotics people, that unwise attempt at insider trading. Your counterpart may show a closer acquaintance with the criminal justice system. He once did a bit of time for forgery, or for robbery with a touch of violence, or for a domestic dispute that got a bit out of hand. You are still perhaps ready to have lunch next Friday. But what if he says: "Well, I once knew a couple who trusted me as their baby sitter. Two little boys they had—one of 12 and one of 10. A good bit of fun I had with those kids when nobody was looking. Told them it was our secret. I was sorry when it all ended." I hope I don't seem too judgmental if I say that at this point the lunch is canceled or indefinitely postponed.

And would you feel any less or any more revulsion if the man went on to say, "Of course, I wasn't strictly speaking in any trouble with the law. I'm a Catholic priest, so we don't bother the police or the courts with that stuff. We take care of it ourselves, if you catch my meaning"?

Yet this is exactly what we are forced to read about every day.

...

[Abdul Alhazred]

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/Abdul-Alhazred/---%20NEW%20---/pope220.jpg Yes I'm Santa Claus. Want some candy?

[a_unique_person]

The Catholic church still doesn't get it. It has been sitting on a debacle of transgressions of human rights that is mind boggling in it's extent.

[JJM 777]

I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married.

[Pardalis]

I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married.

And what does that got to do with the OP?

[Aepervius]

I think the message is simple : they value the privacy and protection of the priest foremost, their own church ritual (confession and stuff) and children come last.

Which make a quite interresting set of priority, but isn't too surprising from a group which will never be involved (or should not be involved) into fathering children. maybe if they were father and husband first before being priest, they would reverse the above priority a bit.

[I Ratant]

The sin is forgiven in the confessional.
Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition.
That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed.

[Aepervius]

the church's rule supercede those of the secular world

That might have been true in the middle age society, but nowadays the western society seem to concider that the secular law clearly supercede the church doctrine not matter what the church think of that.

In other word, whether or not the contrition has been made and the sin forgiven, in the face of the law that does not matter.

Furthermore I would add that a group which consider itself above the law is dangerous to the society and should certainly be punished as a whole when there is evidence of collusion to hide crime from the law (RICO like).

The other group which consider themselves above the law are the various criminal organisation and terroristic organisation. That should give one to think, isn't it ?

[Profanz]

I think the Catholic church has always been a target for pedophiles to infiltrate. The same as playgrounds and schools. If I see one more teacher in the news caught having sex with a student my head is going to explode. But it's not the church, the school, or the playground that is the problem. It's the pedophile. One of the problems with the Catholic church is that if they were to expel all of the pedophile priests then mostly all they would be left with is the gay priests. I mean who wants to be a priest?

I was raised a Catholic. It's stupid. Like every other religion.

[Aepervius]

@profanz change "has become" to "has always been". Profession which deals with children probably always have attracted pedophile. The difference is probably that today it comes up more often to light.

[Aepervius]

deleted dupe

[I Ratant]

I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood.
There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members.
The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also.
I recall one of the most disgusting tv preachers I saw in the middle '50s, Billy James Hargis, was found to be boffing both sides of the choir, much to the consternation of his faithful flock of bleevers.

[Staropeace]

My real brother ....I was adopted by foster parents....grew up in Mount Cashel orphanage where all the abuse took place and made headlines. The christian brothers had been doing it for years. For a long time,vaious officals,including the police force,turned a blind eye.

I have absolutely no respect for the Catholic church. I am a skeptic but there are religious groups I do respect very much. I use to run a homeless shelter for the Salvation Army before I went back to cooking. They are what religions should be like....if one believed in God.

[JJM 777]

And what does that got to do with the OP?
A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

[lionking]

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.

[bookitty]

A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it.

Priests who have no interest in children will use their authority to have sex with adults. This is not unknown, it just doesn't make the papers because it is not illegal.

[Safe-Keeper]

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately. Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing.

Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it.Then again, I strongly suspect that lots of paedophiles have joined the catholic church for the sole reason that it allows them to do whatever they want to children without fearing punishment.

Penn and Teller's episode on the Vatican is highly recommended. I especially liked (read: was utterly disgusted by) how abuse victims were ordered to not tell anyone of their experience until X years after reaching adulthood).

I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood.
There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members.
The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also.To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC?

The sin is forgiven in the confessional.
Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition.
That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed.Would you feel the same way if you were one of the children who got abused by priests and had to shut up about it until well into adulthood? I think not.

[Abdul Alhazred]

And another:

Vienna Boys’ Choir caught up in sex abuse scandals (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7065824.ece)
The Telegraph

The good part:

... The [German] Government is considering extending the statute of limitations on sexual abuse. ...

:clap:

[Sledge]

No, the good part is the name of the Berlin correspondent for The Times Online.

[geni]

A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

[geni]

To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC?


Hard to say since their are fewer journalists looking into the subject. We know that the CofE has had issues as have some Jewish sects.

[Sun Countess]

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.
This is exactly what I was going to say. It boggles that they have millions of paying members.

If everybody quit the Catholic Church, they wouldn't need priests.

[I Ratant]

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.
.
The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service.

[Sledge]

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives.

[geni]

I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives.

I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure.

[geni]

.
The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service.

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

[Sledge]

I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure.You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.

[lionking]

Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing.



I just read today that 98% of catholics in Australia don't go to mass. The number of catholics will diminish each generation, at least in the first world.

[geni]

You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.

Impressive goalpost moving there.

In any case no amount of goalpost moving changes the fact there is no evidence to show that celibacy has a causative effect on pedophilia.

[JJM 777]

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.
There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.

[Wrathernaut]

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

My year in Iraq, I was within the "wire" the ENTIRE year (minus my 2-week R&R leave). I didn't see a single person under the age of 18. My current year elsewhere, if not for dropping people off at the airport, the situation is pretty much the same.

As far as "No socially acceptable sexual pleasure" in the Armed Forces - personal sexual pleasure is downright socially acceptable, talk of it isn't exactly taboo, but it's always conducted in a private matter. Not so much for the Catholic world.

[Sun Countess]

you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.
It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church.

A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse."

Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies.

Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships.

If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute.

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

[Sledge]

Impressive goalpost moving there.
Nope, you're going to have to explain what goalposts have been moved. Or you could just acknowledge that you threw out a poor analogy without thinking about it. Probably less shame in that than continuing to defend a ridiculous position, but it's your call.

[Chaos]

It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church.

A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse."

Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies.

Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships.

If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute.

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.

[Sun Countess]

They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.

That too.

My main point is that the men involved are pedophiles before they become priests. The priesthood rules on celibacy don't turn a heterosexual man into a pedophile. (Or a homosexual one.)

[Darat]

There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.

What has that got to do with a discussion about paedophilia?

[I Ratant]

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.
.
Pointing out submariners, then, for what reason?

[I Ratant]

...

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.
.
Really reaching, that.
I may have felt one (1) of the many priests I knew in my years as a mackeral snapper may have been "odd", but only that one.
The rest are drawn to the profession for other reasons than sex with boys.
A genuine belief they have a calling, for the most part.
The degeneration later is probably a result of proximity, and a loss of belief.

[I Ratant]

There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.
.
There's a constant quarrel here about providing condoms to inmates.
Why would they -need- condoms? ;)

[Sun Countess]

.
Really reaching, that.
I may have felt one (1) of the many priests I knew in my years as a mackeral snapper may have been "odd", but only that one.
The rest are drawn to the profession for other reasons than sex with boys.
A genuine belief they have a calling, for the most part.
The degeneration later is probably a result of proximity, and a loss of belief.

I don't think 90% are pedophiles, but that the vast majority are homosexuals, attracted to other men. Certainly, my gaydar has pinged bigtime for nearly every priest I've ever met.

They enter the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires, which they've been taught are sinful and can't be acted on.

Nowadays, homosexuality is much more accepted in western society and won't get you kicked out of most families. My best guess is that the ranks of young catholic men entering the priesthood will significantly diminish because they can live the lives they really want to. Which is not a life of sexual celibacy.

However many young homosexual or heterosexual men feel they are genuinely "called" to the priesthood in the coming years, they can either keep to their vows and stay celibate, or....they can stray. But they won't be straying with children of either gender, because they're not pedophiles.

[Thunder]

i honestly don't understand how anyone could still be a Catholic, after all of this.

anyone who covers up child abuse in ANY way, is a criminal.

[Floyt]

I'm getting the impression that some of you have lost sight of the fact that a church isn't some kind of club that you jump into or out of because you like or don't like the other members. Ever heard of that odd affliction called "faith"? If you believe that Catholicism is the Truth, technically every single priest could turn out to be a Charles Manson clone and that still wouldn't be sufficient justification for leaving.

[MatildaGage]

I wonder how much attrition there was of the membership when the scandal first broke? And what about now? Doesn't this disprove the whole infallible Pope doctrine?

Silly questions, I guess. Faith does not equal logic.;)

[Thunder]

The Archbishop of NY says the Pope is suffering the same kind of persecution, that Jesus suffered.

**** you, Bishop Dolan.

[geni]

Nope, you're going to have to explain what goalposts have been moved. Or you could just acknowledge that you threw out a poor analogy without thinking about it. Probably less shame in that than continuing to defend a ridiculous position, but it's your call.

The initial claim:

"Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens. "

Now US submarines are single sex. Thus we can be pretty sure that submariners are spending significant lengths of time where typical sexual pleasure isn't an option. Thus we would expect if the claim had any validity to see a rise in pedophilia in such groups. We would also expect to see historical jumps from things like polar expeditions.

[Safe-Keeper]

Wow, I'm convinced. I thought the argument was silly at first, but then I realized that there is indeed a very low occurrence of children getting raped on American nuclear submarines.

Not necessarily saying I support the idea that celibacy turns people into paedophiles, just that it's a bad analogy.

[Abdul Alhazred]

They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.

Exactly. It's institutionalized abuse.

[politas]

That too.

My main point is that the men involved are pedophiles before they become priests. The priesthood rules on celibacy don't turn a heterosexual man into a pedophile. (Or a homosexual one.)

But then, not all child rapists are actually pedophiles. Some are simply using children as an available sexual outlet.

[dafydd]

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

Submarine crews do not have regular access to choirboys.

[Moss]

Can we please stop with the unfounded "90% of Catholic priests are either gay and/or pedophiles" stuff? This isn't a southpark episode. These cases are horrid and the coverups are despicable but what you are doing here seems to be a variant of the association fallacy.
And the question that pops up for me is this: Are those priests that do molest children really pedophiles (as in being drawn to children) or do they target children because they are vulnerable and easy to manipulate?

[JJM 777]

> being drawn to children
> or
> target children because they are vulnerable and easy to manipulate

You will find some experts claiming that pedophilia is all about power and nothing about being attracted by a prepubescent body. And rape is all about power and nothing about the victim being sexually attractive. I believe neither of these claims, but some do.