What harm can it do?

[arcticpenguin]

Occasionally we get visitors making comments about "what harm can it do to let people keep believing their pet beliefs?".

So then, without even a decent segue, I present this news item: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=2&u=/nm/20030110/od_nm/odd_malawi_vampires_dc

Blantyre, Malawi - Hundreds of angry Malawians hounded a senior political figure from his house and stoned him late Wednesday, accusing him of harboring vampires. Blantire Urban Governor Eric Chiwaya, a member of the ruling United Democratic Front, was the latest victim of a bizarre rumor that the country's government is colluding with vampires to collect human blood for international aid agencies.
...
The vampire rumors have sparked several vigilante attacks on suspected bloodsuckers in recent weeks, despite official attempts to stop the rumor. One man was stoned to death, and three priests were attacked by angry villagers in the south....

Woowoo: It hurts.

[Javalar]

Can you tell me who the heck would think to himself upon hearing the rumor: "Of course, vampires! It all makes sense now! The government is using vampires to collect blood to sell to international aid agencies!"

Are these guys stupid or what? This is practically worse than the penis snatching incidents. :eek:

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Javalar
Are these guys stupid or what?
Was that a rhetorical question?
:)

[Wile E. Coyote]

This is ridiculous! As if vampires would regurgitate blood that they need for survival. Now, maybe if they were wearing capes ...

[shemp]

Originally posted by Javalar
Can you tell me who the heck would think to himself upon hearing the rumor: "Of course, vampires! It all makes sense now! The government is using vampires to collect blood to sell to international aid agencies!"

Are these guys stupid or what? This is practically worse than the penis snatching incidents. :eek:

Wait a minute! WHAT PENIS SNATCHING INCIDENTS??? Jebus Krist, I'm running out to Wal-Mart for a cast-iron chastity belt!

[datacable]

Wait a minute! WHAT PENIS SNATCHING INCIDENTS??? Jebus Krist, I'm running out to Wal-Mart for a cast-iron chastity belt!
Which, of course, is exactly what the multi-billion-dollar Religio-Chastity industrial complex WANTS you to do! "Terrify the fornicators into keeping it in their pants, lest it never go back in their pants again." Mwahahahaha!

[Javalar]

Originally posted by shemp
Wait a minute! WHAT PENIS SNATCHING INCIDENTS??? Jebus Krist, I'm running out to Wal-Mart for a cast-iron chastity belt! Don't worry, no penises where actually snatched. But some people were beaten to death went someone would (falsely) accuse them of casting a spell to steal their penis.

Of course, no one ever asked for proof. :rolleyes:

[arcticpenguin]

Did someone say penis snatching incident? (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10&u=/nm/20031010/od_uk_nm/oukoe_odd_gambia_penis)


BANJUL (Reuters) - A 28-year-old man accused of stealing a man's penis through sorcery has been beaten to death in the West African country of Gambia, police say.



A police spokesman told Reuters on Thursday that Baba Jallow was lynched by about 10 people in the town of Serekunda, some nine miles from the capital Banjul.

Reports of penis snatching are not uncommon in West Africa, with purported victims claiming that alleged sorcerers simply touched them to make their genitals shrink or disappear in order to extort cash in the promise of a cure.
...
Seven alleged penis snatchers were beaten to death by angry mobs in Ghana in 1997.

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Reports of penis snatching are not uncommon in West Africa.

Hey sounds like a good plot for a movie;

Invasion of the Penis Snatchers










:roll:






Barkhorn.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
This is ridiculous! As if vampires would regurgitate blood that they need for survival. Now, maybe if they were wearing capes ...
Eh... but vampire bats do... they will regurgitate blood to feed a nest member who has been ill or unsuccessful, because a bat that does not eat within 3 days dies.

Yes, altruism amongst vampire bats... apparently moral virtues are found in many species. Too bad humans aren't one of them. ;)

[Iamme]

What's more looney-tunes?: A mob out to get vampires, or a suicide bomber ready to meet his maker in anticipation of being rewarded 72 virgins?! Now THAT is looney!

[Ladewig]

As for the penis snatching incidents, if some people in the crowd are rational enough to ask the accuser to drop his pants, he does so and then says, "that's not my penis - he took mine and replaced it with this one." Yes, it sounds too bizarre to believe but there have been cases of people being beaten to death with that testimony being the only "evidence" against them.

[Iamme]

Mythbusters was great, last night. The two 'scientists' wired up a crash-test dummy fitted with a bladder, homemade urine and a 'penis', and had it pee on the third rail of a mock subway's electified rail of 650 volts. It took them three attempts or so in making revisions, but they did indeed end up electrocuting the penis, and the dummy fell over backwarsds (to signify death). Conclusion: Not a likely story...but it COULD happen under the right circumstances...even though it has never been recorded to date, to have happened.:D

[Goshawk]

Africa...
An elderly man accused of witchcraft was beaten to death after he claimed to have caused a road accident in southern Tanzania in which 32 people died, police said. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/witch010409.html)

...Mexico...
Authorities from Canada, the U.S. and Mexico have shut down a dubious medical clinic that was treating cancer patients with magnets.

(http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1045780463796_41189663/?hub=Specials)

...and Wisconsin.
Terrance Cottrell, Jr., an autistic 8-year-old boy, died Friday, August 22, during a Milwaukee prayer service aimed at removing the “evil spirits” within him. The medical examiner reported that Cottrell died of suffocation. Police have ruled the death a homicide and have arrested church member, Ray Hemphill, who admitted to sitting on the boy’s chest while his mother and other parishioners held down his arms and legs. This was done as part of their exorcism. (http://www.americanhumanist.org/press/Cottrell.html)

[SRW]

Let us not forget Scotland.

Scot Vampire (http://www.news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=722&id=1097142003)

[UnrepentantSinner]

Tehran Vampire (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9708/13/iran/) though it was more of a nickname.

[SteveGrenard]

Testimony on Patient Safety
Supporting a Culture of Continuous Quality Improvement in Hospitals and Other Health Care Organizations
Carolyn M. Clancy, M.D., Director, AHRQ
Before the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Committee on Governmental Affairs, June 11, 2003
Contents


Good morning. I am very pleased to be here today to discuss the important issue of supporting hospitals and other health care organizations in their efforts to build and sustain a culture of continuous quality and patient safety improvement.

Hospitals and other health care delivery systems provide millions of Americans each year with important, frequently life-saving, care. But, as we all know, medical errors and patient safety issues represent a national problem of epidemic proportions. And as we have seen from recent news headlines, no institution is exempt, and everyone who uses the health care system is at risk.

However, there is good news. Our health care system is committed to improving the quality and safety of the care provided to our Nation's citizens. That commitment has never been stronger as shown by the dedication of the health care organizations like those you have gathered here today.

This issue is a very high priority for HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson and for the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ). Over the last 3 years, thanks to the vision of the U.S. Congress, AHRQ has dedicated $165 million to patient safety research. AHRQ is now the leading funder of patient safety research in the world.

As a clinician, as well as the head of a Federal agency, making sure that patients have safe, high quality health care is a personal priority for me. Like all clinicians, I have had personal experience with patient safety issues in my own practice.


It is important to note that the issue of improving patient safety is not new to the health care system. The landmark 1999 Institute of Medicine report, To Err is Human, was preceded by a body of research largely funded by AHRQ.

Also, segments of the health care system began to recognize where improvement was needed and came together to improve patient safety. For example, anesthesiology had an error rate in the 1960s and 70s of 25 to 50 per million patients. After a concerted effort, that rate has been reduced nearly seven-fold, to 5.4 per million.

In the mid-1990s, the American Medical Association launched the National Patient Safety Foundation, an organization committed to improving safety and reducing errors in medicine.

To Err Is Human galvanized fears and served as a further catalyst to efforts to improve safety and reduce errors. The report's estimates that 44,000 to 98,000 people die in hospitals each year due to medical errors shocked our Nation and all of us involved in health care. Media attention was high at the release of the report and continues with each high-profile case that makes news.
-------------------------------------------------


Injuries in Hospitals Pose a Significant Threat to Patients and a Substantial increase in Health Care Costs
Press Release Date: October 7, 2003

Medical injuries during hospitalization resulted in longer hospital stays, higher costs, and a higher number of deaths in 2000, according to a study from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. The study, "Excess Length of Stay, Charges, and Mortality Attributable to Medical Injuries During Hospitalization," is published in the October 8 Journal of the American Medical Association.

Researchers, led by AHRQ's Chunliu Zhan, M.D., Ph.D., found that the impact of medical injuries varies substantially. Postoperative bloodstream infections had the most serious consequences, resulting in hospital stays of almost 11 days longer than normal, added costs of $57,727, and an increased risk of death after surgery of 21.9 percent. Based on this data, researchers estimate that 3,000 Americans die each year from postoperative bloodstream infections. The next most serious event was postoperative re-opening of a surgical incision, with 9.4 excess days, $40,323 in added costs, and a 9.6 percent increase in the risk of death. This equates to an estimated 405 deaths from reopening of surgical incisions annually. Birth and obstetric trauma, in contrast, resulted in little or no excess length of stay, cost, or increase in the risk of death.

Internet Citation:

Injuries in Hospitals Pose a Significant Threat to Patients and a Substantial increase in Health Care Costs. Press Release, October 7, 2003. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, Rockville, MD. http://www.ahrq.gov/news/press/pr2003/injurypr.htm

[xouper]

SteveGrenard: Testimony on Patient Safety ...Given arcticpenguin's original question ("what harm can it do to let people keep believing their pet beliefs?"), what pet beliefs are you addressing with your cut and paste article?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by xouper
Given arcticpenguin's original question ("what harm can it do to let people keep believing their pet beliefs?"), what pet beliefs are you addressing with your cut and paste article?

I'm confused about that too. The nearest I can gather is that he's trying to show that people die in hospitals, just like they die when people stone "vampires".

Not real sure on that though...

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Occasionally we get visitors making comments about "what harm can it do to let people keep believing their pet beliefs?".

So then, without even a decent segue, I present this news item: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=573&ncid=757&e=2&u=/nm/20030110/od_nm/odd_malawi_vampires_dc

Blantyre, Malawi - Hundreds of angry Malawians hounded a senior political figure from his house and stoned him late Wednesday, accusing him of harboring vampires. Blantire Urban Governor Eric Chiwaya, a member of the ruling United Democratic Front, was the latest victim of a bizarre rumor that the country's government is colluding with vampires to collect human blood for international aid agencies.
...
The vampire rumors have sparked several vigilante attacks on suspected bloodsuckers in recent weeks, despite official attempts to stop the rumor. One man was stoned to death, and three priests were attacked by angry villagers in the south....

Woowoo: It hurts.

Perhaps your a ****ing dracula!

[SRW]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


I'm confused about that too. The nearest I can gather is that he's trying to show that people die in hospitals, just like they die when people stone "vampires".



It's quite obvious, the first thing that Hospitals do to patients is take blood test. So like vampires Hospitals take blood. Therefor Steve believes hospitals are vampires. Anyone who has read Steve's logic should be able to figure this one out.

[T'ai Chi]

Clearly some beliefs are more harmful than others, especially if those beliefs are acted on. Some beliefs, however, have no ill consequences.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by traveller


Perhaps your a ****ing dracula!

Seriously arcticpenguin is a ****ing dracula and that's why he is trying to put belief of vampires on woowoos.

[dmarker]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Testimony on Patient Safety
Supporting a Culture of Continuous Quality Improvement in Hospitals and Other Health Care Organizations
Carolyn M. Clancy, M.D., Director, AHRQ
Before the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Committee on Governmental Affairs, June 11, 2003
Contents





That's nice, Steve. Let's compare the mortality and morbity rate of medical error to the mortality and morbity rate of "alternative medicine".

Is the former lower or higher than the latter? Please bring the stats to prove this.

[MoeFaux]

Originally posted by Ladewig
As for the penis snatching incidents, if some people in the crowd are rational enough to ask the accuser to drop his pants, he does so and then says, "that's not my penis - he took mine and replaced it with this one."


I had a date try that story on me once. Didn't fool me. Nice try. :nope:

[athon]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Clearly some beliefs are more harmful than others, especially if those beliefs are acted on. Some beliefs, however, have no ill consequences.

Immediate ill consequences, perhaps.

But when one supports health sciences that lack quantitative research to back them up, it sets up a precedent that says you don't have to back up claims in today's society. Makes for very shaky foundations for future generations to build upon, and although that might not be as blatant as stoning 'vampires', there cost to society is still going to be great.

[athon]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Testimony on Patient Safety
Supporting a Culture of Continuous Quality Improvement in Hospitals and Other Health Care Organizations
Carolyn M. Clancy, M.D., Director, AHRQ
Before the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, Committee on Governmental Affairs, June 11, 2003
Contents


Fascinating, Steve. Your point being what exactly?

I assume you are attempting to balance the argument by showing that even 'science' can kill?

Well, you didn't actually say anything (a bit cowardly, don't you think?), so if my assumption is wrong I'm sure you will say so.

The article is pointing out that human error in medicine costs lives. This is a serious issue - health systems over the world are often underfunded, with staff in hospitals overworked and fearful of risking many procedures in case they make an error. In cases where this does happen, they are hounded as if they are fallen gods.

Yes, doctors are human. That has never been denied, and like the rest of the human race, there is a range of expertise, intelligence and ability. Some are good at their job while others are not. This is purely political - there is a balance between getting good health professionals and getting any at all.

So in typical woo-woo style, you've built a majestic straw-man to burn that does not so much as touch on the key issue - bad science and non-critical thinking can indeed cause harm.

Athon

[Marc]

Hmm... Steve apparently didn't wait all that long to reapear after stating he was leaving the forum... again..

[Marc]

Originally posted by MoeFaux



I had a date try that story on me once. Didn't fool me. Nice try. :nope:

Did you suggest it be turned into Lost and Found? or at least handed over to the police as evidence. after all, it might be stolen property, someone might be looking for it. (or belongs to the thief and can be used to id them) :D

[MoeFaux]

Originally posted by Marc


Did you suggest it be turned into Lost and Found? or at least handed over to the police as evidence. after all, it might be stolen property, someone might be looking for it. (or belongs to the thief and can be used to id them) :D

No, I just asked him to find his original one. :D

[SteveGrenard]

Marc - as usual you make statements based on your inept and faulty assesment of anything I claim or said. I said I was leaving a particular discussion, a thread. Sorry but I was busy this morning so could not come back here imediately to impress anyone with my replies either.

Now to why I posted the fact that somewhere between 44,000 and 98,000 persons die every year just in the U.S. due to medical errors. It was to contrast with the trivial numbers of people somewhere in Africa that are vicitmized by vampires or penis snatchers. While we busy ourselves here with truly anecdotal, trivial cases there are real problems that need to be addressed and I simply found it ridiculous that a handful of people victimized by woo-wooism can compare with all the people who die every day due to not only medical errors, drunken and sleepy drivers, child/spousal and elderly abuse, murder, and other social ills.

Instead we latch onto eye popping headlines from tabloids who knows where and which we have no idea if they are really even true, let alone signficiant.

There is definitely a lack of priority setting around here.

It is trully amazing how some around here will swallow anything (pun intended) when it suits their biases but torturously question anything that does not. So somewhere in Malawi a newspaper publishes accounts of incipient vampirism and we go all gaga over it. Pathetic.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Marc - as usual you make statements based on your inept and faulty assesment of anything I claim or said. I said I was leaving a particular discussion, a thread. Sorry but I was busy this morning so could not come back here imediately to impress anyone with my replies either.

No, you did not. You said you were leaving "here". You did not specify where "here" was. If you are not precise, you cannot complain if people misunderstand you, especially since you have claimed to leave this forum (leaving no doubt) before.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Now to why I posted the fact that somewhere between 44,000 and 98,000 persons die every year just in the U.S. due to medical errors. It was to contrast with the trivial numbers of people somewhere in Africa that are vicitmized by vampires or penis snatchers. While we busy ourselves here with truly anecdotal, trivial cases there are real problems that need to be addressed and I simply found it ridiculous that a handful of people victimized by woo-wooism can compare with all the people who die every day due to not only medical errors, drunken and sleepy drivers, child/spousal and elderly abuse, murder, and other social ills.

O..........K. So, why are you not involved in preventing medical errors, but instead choose to spend your time on such trivial matters as the paranormal?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Instead we latch onto eye popping headlines from tabloids who knows where and which we have no idea if they are really even true, let alone signficiant.

There is definitely a lack of priority setting around here.

Skeptics also investigate medical scams, Steve, some costing many lives each year.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
It is trully amazing how some around here will swallow anything (pun intended) when it suits their biases but torturously question anything that does not. So somewhere in Malawi a newspaper publishes accounts of incipient vampirism and we go all gaga over it. Pathetic.

Very disingeneous of you. You are fully aware that this forum does not primarily deal with these cases, but have lengthy discussions and investigations of e.g. medical claims, Therapeutic Touch to name one. However, in these threads, you are usually trounced.

It could be why you focus on penis snatchers. The reason could be another, given your penchant for weird sexual references.

[csense]

Originally posted by Iamme
Mythbusters was great, last night. The two 'scientists' wired up a crash-test dummy fitted with a bladder, homemade urine and a 'penis', and had it pee on the third rail of a mock subway's electified rail of 650 volts. It took them three attempts or so in making revisions, but they did indeed end up electrocuting the penis, and the dummy fell over backwarsds (to signify death). Conclusion: Not a likely story...but it COULD happen under the right circumstances...even though it has never been recorded to date, to have happened.:D


Their conclusion that it is not likely however is flawed, since they based this conclusion on slow motion photography which showed the stream of urine seperating into droplets by the time it reached the rail.

This seperation into dropltets may be true of the mechanism in their experiment, but they failed to show that this is true of an actual human urinating, which of course, may or may not be true, but something which they would need to correlate for their findings to have any validity whatsoever.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
the trivial numbers of people somewhere in Africa that are vicitmized by vampires or penis snatchers.


First off, if it has not happened to you, you cannot judge. The numbers may be trivial but the impact is not.

Secondly, based on your wording, it appears that you actually believe that there are such things as vampires and penis snatchers. Say it ain't so.

[Ed]

Originally posted by csense



Their conclusion that it is not likely however is flawed, since they based this conclusion on slow motion photography which showed the stream of urine seperating into droplets by the time it reached the rail.

This seperation into dropltets may be true of the mechanism in their experiment, but they failed to show that this is true of an actual human urinating, which of course, may or may not be true, but something which they would need to correlate for their findings to have any validity whatsoever.

Hmmmm seems that we have a volinteer.

[Goshawk]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Now to why I posted the fact that somewhere between 44,000 and 98,000 persons die every year just in the U.S. due to medical errors. It was to contrast with the trivial numbers of people somewhere in Africa that are vicitmized by vampires or penis snatchers. While we busy ourselves here with truly anecdotal, trivial cases there are real problems that need to be addressed and I simply found it ridiculous that a handful of people victimized by woo-wooism can compare with all the people who die every day due to not only medical errors, drunken and sleepy drivers, child/spousal and elderly abuse, murder, and other social ills.
The issue here in this thread is not "how many people died".

The issue here in this thread is "WHY they died".

Your thousands of medical-error deaths died because of carelessness or stupidity or greed or accidents.

The few cases we are discussing here died because of superstition.

Superstition is a totally different thing from carelessness or stupidity or greed or accidents. From Merriam-Webster:

1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
In other words, a "pet belief".

The OP reads, "What harm can it do to let people keep believing their pet beliefs?". None of your medical-error deaths died because of someone's pet beliefs. All of the few cases we are discussing here died because of someone's pet beliefs. We are discussing "dying because of someone else's pet beliefs".

Therefore, your medical-error statistics, while distressing, are not relevant.

Instead we latch onto eye popping headlines from tabloids who knows where and which we have no idea if they are really even true, let alone signficiant...So somewhere in Malawi a newspaper publishes accounts of incipient vampirism and we go all gaga over it. Pathetic.
On behalf of everyone in this thread, including myself, who posted links to mainstream news sources, and who are only posting at this JREF forum in the first place because we are devoted to rightly dividing the word of truth as regards to tabloids and other "alternative" news sources, allow me to express my deep resentment at this particularly clueless statement. We Googled those stories just like you Googled yours, Steve, and those are all reputable news sources.

Instead of addressing the question of how your medical-error statistics relate to the OP, you instead choose to sidetrack onto attacking our sources.

Which is stupid.


I will also point out that not everything we are discussing here takes place in far away, "easy-to-scoff-at-because-presumed-full-of-ignorant-tabloids" Africa. I refer you to the Wisconsin story I linked to, about the exorcism. There are also instances of prosperous, educated white Americans imperiling their children because their religion prohibits medical treatment of one kind or another.

Religious groups that avoid medical treatment (http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical.htm)

[SteveGrenard]

I agree that some few cases due to ignorant superstition and religious beliefs are no less important than a hundred thousand due to neglisence and errors, especially to those directly involved up close and personal. But they still pale in comparison to the numbers needing action. I am happy to say that such action, after decades of neglect, is being taken as the press releases from the fed indicate.

These are our priorities. The greater number prevails. That was and is my point.

Those who try and make it seem like these few deaths, however, are commonplace are seriously deluded. These are rare cases worthy of local action which they receive as prosecutions in such matters proved in the Colorado deaths campaigned by Linda Rosa did. I would ask Rosa if such deaths were commonplace? Do they happen daily and twice on Sundays? No. She has a lot of spare time on her hands between incicdents of this type.

And those who think that a Reuters tagline on a story gives it mainstream status are also seriously in error. Do you know how newservices such as Reuters, especially in places such as Malawi work.? They have paid stringers, locals, who mine the local press or marketplace for these stories. They are headline grabbers. If you honestly believe that some first class investigative journalist with the highest possible ethic sitting in an office in London is fact checking such stories, you are also seriously deluded. Many of these stories from places in Africa are complete hoaxes. The continent is talented at producing authentic sounding stories complete with government and police sources and names to back them up. The Africans in some countries are particularly good at such scams. Have you read some of the letters they send out trying to share millions of dollars with you if you would just send them your bank account number and bank coding reference so they can send you the money? What they will do is actually empty your bank account if you are stupid enough to fall for this. But the letters are pure masterpeices of creative fiction. Somebody should collect them all and publish them as an anthology. along with these ridiculous news stories.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

I suspect that Ed and CFLarson are also ****ing closet draculas.

[Ed]

Originally posted by traveller
I suspect that Ed and CFLarson are also ****ing closet draculas.

True, but not each other:D

Fact is that CL and I are nosferatu. He had to move back to Denmark cuz we were using up too many human critters and people were starting to notice. You can see how we cleverly made it look like OJ out in California and how we framed Scott Peterson. The Chandra Levy thing was pretty good too.

See, we creatures of the paranormal like to stay on sceptic boards like this to divert attention from our true activities. Think about it, if you were a vampire or a guy who could talk to the dead the last thing you would want is attention. Ipso facto, any "paranormal" bloke who goes public is a fake.

Lucianarchy is really correct and will be delt with presently (another reason Claus had to go back to Europe). Occasionally we use those under our power (Renfield like ... incidentially, Dracula was largely autobiographical, Ann Rice is my main squeeze) to post under pseudonyms. It works well, we make belieers look rediculous so that we can carry out our nefarious plots. I can't tell you what they are, only that they are nefarious.

unfortunately, we have to kill all of you now in order to keep our secret safe. It may take a while but, rest assured, within 100 years we will have gotten all of you.

Well, gotta fly now:D

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I agree that some few cases due to ignorant superstition and religious beliefs are no less important than a hundred thousand due to neglisence and errors, especially to those directly involved up close and personal. But they still pale in comparison to the numbers needing action. I am happy to say that such action, after decades of neglect, is being taken as the press releases from the fed indicate.

These are our priorities. The greater number prevails. That was and is my point.

Then, you should investigate claims why people die from cardiac arrest.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Those who try and make it seem like these few deaths, however, are commonplace are seriously deluded. These are rare cases worthy of local action which they receive as prosecutions in such matters proved in the Colorado deaths campaigned by Linda Rosa did. I would ask Rosa if such deaths were commonplace? Do they happen daily and twice on Sundays? No. She has a lot of spare time on her hands between incicdents of this type.

Ah, you don't think that delusion is a problem that has serious implications?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
And those who think that a Reuters tagline on a story gives it mainstream status are also seriously in error. Do you know how newservices such as Reuters, especially in places such as Malawi work.? They have paid stringers, locals, who mine the local press or marketplace for these stories. They are headline grabbers.


This, from someone who posts claim after claim after claim, without being able to back it up with anything that even resembles evidence.... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
If you honestly believe that some first class investigative journalist with the highest possible ethic sitting in an office in London is fact checking such stories, you are also seriously deluded. Many of these stories from places in Africa are complete hoaxes.

Please present your evidence of this. Along with a statistical analysis of which are hoaxes and which are not.

What, don't have it?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
The continent is talented at producing authentic sounding stories complete with government and police sources and names to back them up. The Africans in some countries are particularly good at such scams. Have you read some of the letters they send out trying to share millions of dollars with you if you would just send them your bank account number and bank coding reference so they can send you the money? What they will do is actually empty your bank account if you are stupid enough to fall for this. But the letters are pure masterpeices of creative fiction. Somebody should collect them all and publish them as an anthology. along with these ridiculous news stories.

The Nigerian Money Scams are already being investigated, so no news there. However, I think I detect a certain....tone in your description of "The Africans". The way you generalize, the way you so eagerly appoint a whole "continent" as "talented" in "producing" these scams...What's going on, Steve?

[SteveGrenard]

Ed writes:

First off, if it has not happened to you, you cannot judge. The numbers may be trivial but the impact is not.

I agree. Singular tragedies are always worse when they are personal. The impact, however, is great on individuals, not on everyone. This still doesn't mean the larger numbers don't prevail.


Secondly, based on your wording, it appears that you actually believe that there are such things as vampires and penis snatchers. Say it ain't so.

Nope. They are definitely hoaxes. I said that above. These stories regularly come out of Africa where people don't have enough other things apparently to keep them occupied and educated about such matters. The bank scams coming out of Nigeria, Liberia and Ghana and now more recently even South Africa are an example in the creativity involved in perpetrating such hoaxes. I received one the other day from an alleged banker, with a good e-mail address. The bank existed, it had a website and the signer even was listed thereon. Of course the website itself could've been a hoax. Citibank (and its customers) which has an online banking service was and still is the victim of a hoax. I got their offiicial logo page as an e-mail saying I needed to change my password as my account was compromised , to enter it and hit repy!

Then another Citibank message came saying I needed to provide the first 4 numbers of my ATM card! LOL. Just forwarded these messages to the FBI and Citibank security. I wonder how many people fell for this?

How come we don't see these hoaxes and scams coming out of Denmark, France or Germany?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Nope. They are definitely hoaxes. I said that above. These stories regularly come out of Africa where people don't have enough other things apparently to keep them occupied and educated about such matters. The bank scams coming out of Nigeria, Liberia and Ghana and now more recently even South Africa are an example in the creativity involved in perpetrating such hoaxes.

"People don't have enough other things apparently to keep them occupied and educated about such matters"??? What kind of ignoramus are you, Steve? How can you generalize in such an obtuse manner? Do you really think that is it a matter of finding things to do?

Steve, living in Africa is more often than not a very unpleasant experience. They have to deal with diseases we have forgotten all about. They have to deal with grinding poverty, not just on a personal scale, but also on a continental one. They fight corruption, AIDS, environmental disasters, natural disasters, hunger...the list is virtually endless.

But, according to you, all they do is perpetrate hoaxes meant to scam Americans and Europeans out of money. They shun survival of their families, they forego education, just so they can scam white people.

What kind of person are you, Steve? What makes you post such a preposterous claim?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
I received one the other day from an alleged banker, with a good e-mail address. The bank existed, it had a website and the signer even was listed thereon. Of course the website itself could've been a hoax.

So, why was it "good"?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Citibank (and its customers) which has an online banking service was and still is the victim of a hoax. I got their offiicial logo page as an e-mail saying I needed to change my password as my account was compromised , to enter it and hit repy!

Then another Citibank message came saying I needed to provide the first 4 numbers of my ATM card! LOL. Just forwarded these messages to the FBI and Citibank security. I wonder how many people fell for this?

I wonder why you don't investigate, instead of just coming up with innuendos....

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
How come we don't see these hoaxes and scams coming out of Denmark, France or Germany?

We do. Hoaxes and scams occur here too. However, our infrastructure makes it easier to find the crooks. The African countries do not have that luxury.

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
How come we don't see these hoaxes and scams coming out of Denmark, France or Germany? [/B]


Steve, old bean:

In spite of yourself you have sort of hit the nail on the head.

What we see from the western countries, including the US are different sorts of hoaxes, perpetuated by seemingly well meaning people such as yourself. Things like talking to dead people, homeopathy, magnet therapy and a whole host of others. More damaging to mind and wallet than anything our dusky bretheren are up to.

As you say:

"These stories regularly come out of Africa where people don't have enough other things apparently to keep them occupied and educated about such matters."

Substitute the words United States or England and this certainly holds true. The millions of your countrymen who spend money and time on vain persuits for the dead, getting "read" by astrologers, buying and supporting frauds in the "psychic" realm by purchasing their books and watching their TV shows is a crime against humanity given the opportunity cost.

Fifty years of research which can be allegorized as a cow flop.

You don't need to look as far as africa to see poor benighted savages, just look around at the pathetic followers of the "teachings" of your erstwhile buddy Schwartz and your new buddy Keen. Re-read the pitiful end of Targ and about the delusional people she was so afraid to offend. Then look closer, Steve, look at yourself and other reasonably well off and intelligent people who, for reasons best known to themselves, support moribund notions of immortality against all evidence and allow the likes of Keen et al. to flourish.

[xouper]

It must be frustrating for Steve to get zinged as often as he does by Ed, Claus, and others. Steve tries so hard to make a point and often completely misses the target.

[Ed]

Originally posted by xouper
It must be frustrating for Steve to get zinged as often as he does by Ed, Claus, and others. Steve tries so hard to make a point and often completely misses the target.

But, but, but.........

We get into these micro arguments about whether or not there is one decent paper on homeopathy, for example. Steve does a googol and upon investigation we find that they are mostly crap. Steve comes back with something on the biosphere or whatever. The point is that he misses the meta issue. Really misses it. (and right now, as he is reading this, he really does not apprehend what meta view I am talking about) His post about the Nigerian scam is an example, one which I gently tried to bring home.

He evidentially has a world view wherein things exist that are rejected by various authority figures. If he succumbs to evidence, this view collapses, perhaps catastrophically. His seeming reasonable perspective on Homeo is evidence of this. A truely reasonable person would move on.

Odd, and interesting. I wonder where his posts will take him next.

[xouper]

Ed: The point is that he misses the meta issue. Really misses it.Yes, that's another way of saying what I meant.

[SteveGrenard]

Does this mean you are back to accepting meta analyses again?

[Goshawk]

I can only sit here and marvel at the way Steve has managed to hijack this thread from "people who die because of someone's pet beliefs" to "the quality of news reporting from Africa".

Steve, once again, your data on the numbers of medical-error deaths has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, which--once again--is, "What harm does it do to let people have their pet beliefs?"

And also, the subject of "which news stories from Africa are hoaxes" ALSO has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Please try to stay on topic.

Please address the issue of "American white people who imperil their children because of their religious beliefs which forbid certain medical treatments". This issue, at least, cannot be dismissed as a hoax. Read some of this link.

http://www.parkridgecenter.org/Page567.html

How do you feel about that? Should they be allowed to do that?

How about the Jensens of Utah? (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Parent%20Kidnapping) Not Africans. Not a hoax.

Sunday, October 12, 2003 · Last updated 12:50 p.m. PT

Utah medical neglect case opens new front

By PAUL FOY
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

SALT LAKE CITY -- Only weeks ago, Daren and Barbara Jensen appeared to be prevailing in the fight to keep their 12-year-old son off chemotherapy - just as their son, Parker, seemed to be beating his battle with cancer.

After a public outpouring of sympathy for the family, Utah authorities last month dropped a bid to get custody of the boy, along with kidnapping charges against the parents for taking their son out of state to avoid the court-ordered chemotherapy. The Jensens insist the boy is cancer-free and refuse to give him the toxic treatment.

But a key complaint against the Jensens remains. State officials refuse to withdraw a petition accusing the parents of medical neglect - a complaint that could cost Daren and Barbara Jensen custody of their son and restore the chemotherapy order.

A juvenile court judge set a trial for Nov. 17-19. State child-welfare authorities say the longer Parker goes without chemotherapy, the more likely he is to die.

< snip >

Daren Jensen says he's getting immune system therapy for Parker and giving him health supplements. The family is consulting an out-of-country physician, who is working with "several" doctors in this country. The Jensens are refusing to provide details, saying Utah authorities already interfered by warning an alternative cancer clinic in Texas against consulting with the family.
How do you feel about that?

[Ed]

Originally posted by xouper
Yes, that's another way of saying what I meant.

Sorry, did not mean to be patronizing. I felt like writing something and I just did a riff on your post. You said it well.



:)

[Ed]

Originally posted by Goshawk

Please address the issue of "American white people who imperil their children because of their religious beliefs which forbid certain medical treatments". This issue, at least, cannot be dismissed as a hoax. Read some of this link.

http://www.parkridgecenter.org/Page567.html


How do you feel about that?


Tell themr when she buries the cold, small, lifeless body of her child her experiment in "alternative medicine" will be over. Point out that it will be too late, unless of course she believes that she can talk to dead people. Then things will be just fine.

See, I knew it would come in handy.

[SteveGrenard]

Child abuse is child abuse. If a parent wilfully neglects to do everything possible to treat their child's illness and puts their life at risk they should be held accountable. If they wish to try what are otherwise harmless alternative interventions such as prayer, touch or whatever, but not to the exclusion of mainstream medicine, I have no problem with that. This is why such "medicine" is also called complemnetary. It is the very essence of the definition for this area; a violation of that, the use of such things in lieu of standardized treatment , is child abuse. I also feel parents who smack their kids around, neglect them, torture them, kill them directly and even allow them to be vastly overweight are also guilty of such abuse. I have no tolerance for such parents. We lament the fact you need a license to drive but anybody can have a kid. I have seen it all working in NYC emergency rooms. I have yelled and screamed at parents who called up to cancel a hospital appointment for their kids because they had tickets to a matinee or some such similar excuses. The one that really gets me is the parent who cant bring their kid in on a weeknight to be tested in the sleep lab because they have school the next day. I often remind them that their kid is falling asleep and failing in school so what difference does it make? Bring them in and solve the problem. These people are truly clueless.

I trust that answers your questions from my perspective on this topic. I have been administering conventional medical treatment for 35 years and in no way feel they should be set aside for unproven, unsafe or alternative treatments.

[Goshawk]

If they wish to try what are otherwise harmless alternative interventions such as prayer, touch or whatever, but not to the exclusion of mainstream medicine
Okay, but we're not talking about "not to the exclusion of mainstream medicine". We're talking specifically about "the exclusion of mainstream medicine". We're talking about "people who die because of someone's pet belief". The OP is asking, "What harm do pet beliefs do?" and we're discussing what harm "pet beliefs" can do, namely, that people can die because of them.

So we're discussing "parents who refuse mainstream medical treatment for their child because of a pet belief, whether specifically religious, as in Christian Science, or whether merely a belief in alternative therapies--and the kid dies". Am I correct in assuming that you would condemn that? And that therefore you would agree that it's a Bad Thing when someone dies because of a person's pet belief, and that therefore having pet beliefs can sometimes be a Bad Thing? That sometimes pet beliefs can "do harm"? Because sometimes people can die because of them? That's what the OP is asking--"what's the harm?"

[SteveGrenard]

Goshawk asks (quotes):

Am I correct in assuming that you would condemn that?

Yes.

And that therefore you would agree that it's a Bad Thing when someone dies because of a person's pet belief, and that therefore having pet beliefs can sometimes be a Bad Thing?

Yes if they are not complementary to mainstream or conventional medicine. You may be interested in knowing that some 500 or more mainstream US hospitals offer patients complementary medical techniques. The emphasis here is on the world "complementary." They also allow clergy inculding Catholic Clergy to conduct healing services on site. Pet beliefs do not kill except if they are used in any manner other than as a complementary technique. There are a few exceptions to this such as exorcisms for behaviorally challenged children which directly resulted in their death by suffocation. This was inexcusable.

Another exception concerns herbals.
Are some herbals dangerous? Indubitably. They should not be taken without consulting a physician as to their side effects and modes of action.


That sometimes pet beliefs can "do harm"? Because sometimes people can die because of them?

Aside from the examples given above, I know of no deaths attributable to any so-called pet belief that has killed anyone. If you are saying that prayer, TT or homeopathic water preparations or one-a-day vitamins have killed people directly please furnish evidence of that. On the other hand if these things are not used as a complement to mainstream medicine they could be considered indirectly responsible for deaths in persons with potentially fatal but otherwise curable or controllable diseases.

I guess I need another rubber stamp regarding the definition of the word complementary.


edited to add:

PS: What's "the OP? Did you mean AP or the non-existent Arctic Penguin?

Also: is the name of this thread "What harm can it do?" I didn't see anything that does not qualify or disqualify the complementary principle. Maybe I missed it. We can't discuss this without considering this factor.

[Goshawk]

"OP" is a common term used on Internet message boards, meaning both "original post" and "original poster". It refers to the subject of the thread.

[Goshawk]

The subject of this thread is, "What harm does it do to let people keep their pet beliefs?"

The response so far has been, "Well, sometimes people's pet beliefs mean that other people die. This happens in two ways--when people have superstitions that cause them to believe somebody else might be better off dead, and when people have religious or other beliefs that cause them to fail to seek timely mainstream medical treatment for themselves and/or their loved ones."

So the response so far has been, "Yes, letting people keep their pet beliefs sometimes does harm."

We are not discussing whether alternative medicine is good or bad, or better or worse than mainstream medicine. We are discussing whether it's good or bad to allow people to keep their pet belief in a particular brand of alternative medicine, or should we try to argue them out of it, as happens frequently here on the JREF.

So far the consensus is, "Yes, it's good to try to argue them out of it."

I know of no deaths attributable to any so-called pet belief that has killed anyone.
Prayer killed the boy in the Wisconsin exorcism.

This vegan baby died. (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/child_abuse.html)
A High Court jury in Auckland has watched a video as the manslaughter trial of Deborah and Roby Jan Moorhead continues.

The Dargaville couple have denied causing the death of their six-month-old child Caleb by failing to provide the necessaries of life.

In an interview with a detective, Jan Moorhead said he never knew his son was going to die until his final breath of life, because of his faith in the herbal remedies which he was treating him with.

He said in hindsight there is a possibility he may have done the wrong thing, but he said the doctor at Starship Hospital could also be wrong.

< snip >

The Seventh-day Adventist couple took Caleb out of the Starship children's hospital and went into hiding.

The jury heard that the couple believed their son would be healed through the use of alternative remedies.

He died in March last year from medical complications due to a lack of vitamin B12.

This woman (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/450855.stm) with HIV will probably not live out a normal lifespan. And her baby probably has HIV, too.
The couple believe in the effectiveness of alternative medicine and say it has kept the mother healthy so far.

All these children died. (http://www.peopleunitedforreligiousfreedom.org/faithhealing.htm)
Twelve-day-old Carie Sealy died of pneumonia without receiving any type of medical attention. Her parents, Kenneth and Bonnie Sealy, were members of the Faith Assembly Church. They believed that if God could not help, no man could (Larabee, Mark "The Battle Over Faith Healing"The Oregonian Nov. 28, 1998.).

Newborn infant Warren Reed died of pneumonia and meningitis. His parents recognized the symptoms, but refused to get medical care. Dr. Rob Kurtzman stated that the heart defect Warren had at birth is rarely fatal if medical help is given. His parents Billy and Barbara Reed are members of the General Assembly Church of the First Born ( Lofholm Nancy Denver Post August 3, 2000)

Sonia Hernandez, a one-year old, died of pneumonia. Her parents Guillermo and Luz Hernandez were members of End Time Ministries. The girl was blind, deaf and suffered from cerebral palsy. The parents also believed in faith healing as a substitute for medical attention (Callahan, Joe Lake City Reporter, September 4, 1992)

In Colorado, 18-month-old Warren Trevette died of suspected congested heart failure while his parents and church elders of the General Assembly of the First Born prayed for his cure (Torkelson, Jean Rocky Mountain News July 28, 2000 ).

In Boston, two-year-old Robyn Twitchell died of peritonitis and a twisted bowel after a five-day illness that began with his screaming and vomiting. His parents, members of Christian Science, refused to get medical treatment for their son. http://www.childrenshealthcare.org

Two-year-old Justin Barnhart, whose parents were members of the Faith Tabernacle Church, died of Wilm's tumor because the parents depended on prayer and rejected medical help. Medical intervention is successful in 90% of these cases. (Cult Observer, May/June 1988, p. 6. From "U.S. Supreme Court Will Be Asked to Review Faith-death Conviction," CHILD Newsletter, Spring, 1988, p. 4). http://www.csj.org

Natili Joy Mudd, a four-year-old from Indiana whose parents were members of the Faith Assembly Church, died from an eye tumor the size of her head. Police discovered blood trails on the walls where the nearly blind girl attempted to go from room to room. The Mudd's other 5-year-old daughter died after a court ordered operation to remove a basketball-sized tumor in her stomach (Mark Latrabee "The Battle Over Faith Healing" The Organian, Nov.28 1998).

In Oregon City, four-year-old Alex Dale Morris received prayers for 46 days before he died. His parents, members of the Followers of Christ church denied the boy medical attention. His autopsy revealed that massive infection in his chest had filled one entire side of his chest with pus. Antibiotics could have saved him. (Van Biema, David " Faith Or Healing" Time Magazine August 31, 1998 Vol.152 No. 9)

In Florida, Amy Hermanson, aged 7 died of diabetes. Her parents are members of the Christian Scientist Faith, and claimed their religious beliefs kept them from taking her for medical attention. "The Unacceptable Cost Of Religious Superstition" 26 Feb. 2001.http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Woods/1327/child-abuse.html

Bo Phillips, 11, died Feb. 23 of diabetes after suffering painful symptoms for a week. His death could have been prevented with medical care. His eyes were sunken and his face was yellow. His parents were members of the Followers of Christ Church. When his father was asked why he let the boy die, the father said it was his choice (Van Biema, David "Faith Or Healing" Time Aug. 311998 vol. 152 No9).

In Alberta, Calahan Shippy, age 14, died of diabetes as a result of his parents refusal to get medical help. His father stated he has the right to not seek medical help for his eight children. The father is a member of the Followers of Christ sect. A pathologist said the boy might have lived if he had received medical help a few hours before he died (" Alberta Couple Gets Suspended Sentence In Diabetes Death" Ottawa Citizen, June 26, 2000).

Sixteen-year-old Shannon Nixon died of treatable diabetes complications. Five years before, her younger brother Clayton died of an inner-ear infection. Their parents, Lori and Dennis Nixon, were members of the Faith tabernacle Church and refused to let their children have medical attention (Blair, Jeffroy "Faith-Healing Convictions Upheld" Deloit Daily News Apr. 30, 1997).
And one of the lucky ones, from the same link.
In Philadelphia, one-year-old Patrick Foster, whose parents were members of Faith Tabernacle Congregation Church, is another example of a child suffering due to religious beliefs. Patrick needed help to lift his head because his body was engulfed by a growth that emerged from his kidney and attached itself to his liver and heart. The police came for Patrick. At the hospital, it was discovered that Patrick had a Wilm's tumor, a childhood cancer that 90% of the patients survive if they receive prompt medical treatment. Fortunately, Patrick lived because of police intervention (Larabee, Mark "The Battle Over Faith Healing The Oregonian Saturday, November 28 1998 ).

On the other hand if these things are not used as a complement to mainstream medicine they could be considered indirectly responsible for deaths in persons with potentially fatal but otherwise curable or controllable diseases.
Exactly my point. However, people who believe in alternative medicine rarely use them in conjunction with mainstream medicine. They use them instead of mainstream medicine. So it's kind of pointless to stipulate "a pet belief in alternative medicine is okay as long as you're using it in conjunction with mainstream medicine", because people rarely use it like that.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Goshawk
However, people who believe in alternative medicine rarely use them in conjunction with mainstream medicine. They use them instead of mainstream medicine.

Do you have an links to any JAMA articles to provide evidence for that claim?

[athon]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Do you have an links to any JAMA articles to provide evidence for that claim?

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I actually agree with T'ai Chi. I would be inclined to say that in my experience, it has been the other way around. Most people 'mix' their therapies.

This IMHO is what makes it dangerous. People try 'conventional' medicine and, on seeing it not work for whatever reason (remember, at no point do we say doctors/scientists/researcher etc. are gods and have all the answers), they try acupuncture, homeopathy etc. Sometimes their symptoms fade, or they get better (medicine is about helping the body to repair itself) without due intervention.

This is problem number 1 - a few incidents set up a precedence which becomes anecdotal evidence. 'Acupuncture cured me where conventional medicine did not'.

Problem number 2 is where people associate small measures of medical 'fact' in alternative medicines with medical facts in conventional medicine. For instance, immunology with homeopathy, a common 'cross-over' of facts.

Athon

[Pakaran]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Tehran Vampire (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9708/13/iran/) though it was more of a nickname.

Like the Milwaukee Cannibal, then? Who was not an "actual" cultural cannibal, but just a really messed up fellow?

[hgc]

Originally posted by Pakaran


Like the Milwaukee Cannibal, then? Who was not an "actual" cultural cannibal, but just a really messed up fellow? He did eat dead people. If that ain't a cannibal, then I don't know what is.

I think your analogy doesn't fit because the working definition of vampire for most people has to do with the supernatural, undead stuff, ie., doesn't really exist -- hence US's "nickname" comment.

[SteveGrenard]

Vampire bats are NOT myths .............

http://www.batconservation.org/content/meetourbats/vampire.htm

Orgnization for Bat Conservation


by Denise Tomlinson

Vampire Bats. The name conjures images of Count Dracula and other vampires, eerie creatures of the night that suck blood from their victims that turn into vampires themselves. ,snippedy>

The legends of vampires were developed well before the discovery of vampire bats in the New World. Vampire bats got their name from these legends from Europe.

Bram Stoker himself was so fascinated by the discovery of bats that drank blood in the New World that he incorporated them into his book Dracula.

Vampire bats have been around for 6-8 million years. These bats are placed in the family Phyllostomidae. However, there are some scientists that believe that they warrant their own family, so some text books place them in the family Desmodonitidae. Fossil records show there used to be more species of vampire bats. Today, there are just three species. Two species prefer avian blood and are less abundant. These bats are the White-winged vampire bat (Diaemus youngi) and the Hairy-legged vampire bat (Diphylla ecaudata). The most abundant and most studied vampire bat is the Common vampire bat (Desmodus rotundus), which prefers mammalian blood. All three are found in the New World tropical and subtropical regions (Central and South America) and are considered medium sized bats.

How vampire bats evolved is still as mystery. There are 3 theories of origin.

<okay-snipping the evolutionary theories X3.>

Vampire bats are capable of jumping straight up and flying. This technique is uncommon in other bats.< ..this is interesting think ill leave it in >


The most intriguing aspect of vampire bats is their diet and how they get their food. Due to a diet exclusively of blood (called sanquivory), vampire bats have many adaptations that make them very specialized. Vampire bats have the fewest teeth of all bats. ,taking out he part about the tummy expanding>

,the saliva thing is interesting>

The most fascinating adaptation is in the saliva of vampire bats. The saliva of vampire bats contain 3 active ingredients to keep the blood flowing, allowing them to eat. An anticoagulant is the main ingredient and prevents the blood from congealing. There is also a chemical that keeps the red blood cells from sticking together. The last ingredient inhibits constriction of veins under the wound. There has been a drug developed from research on the anticoagulant in vampire bat's saliva called Draculin, which is used to treat heart patients.

Vampire bats need 2 tablespoons of blood each day. They can eat approximately 1.5 times their body weight in the wild. The Common vampire bat cannot go 2 nights without food, otherwise it starves to death.

.

Denise Tomlinson graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in Biology. She is the director of operations at the Organization for Bat Conservation.

(free to fair use; no C notice) Thanks Denise. People who are interested in bats should join your group. They can find it at :

http://www.batconservation.org


Vampire bats exist. Thanks for helping to prove that. Wonder how the modern myth got started in Africa? Probably from the blood drinking human tribes here.

[xouper]

SteveGrenard: (free to fair use; no C notice)Lack of a copyright notice does not automatically imply permission to use. So unless you have explicit permission for posting the entire article, you are in violation of copyright law. And no, I'm not going to report you to the mods, since I trust you will do the honorable thing and trim your post.

But as a practical matter, what's the point of quoting the entire article instead of just excerpting the passages that you wanted us to take particular notice of?

[Pakaran]

Originally posted by hgc
He did eat dead people. If that ain't a cannibal, then I don't know what is.

I think your analogy doesn't fit because the working definition of vampire for most people has to do with the supernatural, undead stuff, ie., doesn't really exist -- hence US's "nickname" comment.

Point taken. The thing is that if someone referred to him as a ghoul, complete with undeath, rotting flesh, etc, then that would be inaccurate.

There *are* people in the world that believe they are vampires, check eg this site (http://www.sanguinarius.org/) which is a support link for these folks. They are, however, *not* undead corpses, and their (IMHO almost certainly psychological) condition is NOT evidence of anything paranormal.

[SteveGrenard]

___________
A LANDSLIDE OF RAISINS FOR MALAWI

Knoxville, Tennessee ... It all started over a year ago when young
Daniel Shipley from Knoxville heard about the intense famine being
experienced in Malawi. In spite of being told his contributon would
make little difference in such a vast sea of suffering Daniel took his
allowance and headed for his neighborhood Kroger store to buy raisins
to send to Malawi to help the children.

In the months since his story went on the web, and since his raisin
shipments reached children and churches in many parts of Malawi, the
story of Daniel and his struggle with cerebral palsy has touched the
lives of countless people in two nations.

Today, thanks to Daniel, and his faithfulness in helping the people of
Malawi, a 40-foot trailer is making its way across the Atlantic aboard
a sea-land shipper on the way to Malawi. It's contents? A semi trailer
filled of raisins!

You can read the story of Daniel and his commitment by going to the web
at http://malawiproject.org/ His story will inspire you.

**************
While you are on the Malawi Project site be sure to notice the most
recent news about the "Mushroom Houses" that were built for Blessings
Hospital staff by a group from Montgomery, Alabama during their summer
trip to Malawi.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Richard (Dick) Stephens
e-mail: Dick@malawiproject.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Director
Malawi Project, Inc.
A 501c3 Not-For-Profit Charitable Organization
Visit our web site: http://www.malawiproject.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
"Far better to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory, nor defeat."

- Theodore Roosevelt -

[Ed]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
___________
A LANDSLIDE OF RAISINS FOR MALAWI

Today, thanks to Daniel, and his faithfulness in helping the people of
Malawi, a 40-foot trailer is making its way across the Atlantic aboard
a sea-land shipper on the way to Malawi. It's contents? A semi trailer
filled of raisins!

-

A pity that their religion precludes raisins from their diet. But it is a heart warming story nevertheless.

[Goshawk]

Tai Chi and Athon:

No, I do not have "a JAMA article" to support my opinion that most people who use alternative therapies use them alone, to the exclusion of mainstream medicine.

Naturally, if you have a different opinion, that people combine therapies, you are entitled to it--and watch how I'm not demanding that you produce "a JAMA article" to support that opinion.


And since Steve evidently prefers to talk about vampire bats and raisins now instead of the topic at hand, I guess I'll bow out of this discussion.

Do you need me to suggest any more potential hijacks, Steve, or can you manage?

[SteveGrenard]

I have already talked about and tried to explain the definition of complementary and integrative medicine but to no avail. Conveniently ignored by those with different agendas. Would you like to start talking about them all over again?

[athon]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Tai Chi and Athon:

No, I do not have "a JAMA article" to support my opinion that most people who use alternative therapies use them alone, to the exclusion of mainstream medicine.


Sorry, while Tai Chi was after evidence, I was not after any articles to support your opinion. I was just offering my experience on the matter.

A little tense, are we?

Athon