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LucyR
21st January 2004, 02:12 PM
Thought this article might be of interest to people since it seems relevant to several ongoing discussions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3417429.stm

DanishDynamite
21st January 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by LucyR
Thought this article might be of interest to people since it seems relevant to several ongoing discussions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3417429.stm Interesting article. I agree with the report's recommendations.

LucyR
21st January 2004, 03:02 PM
I also think this remark comes just a little too easily:

"The more we keep people unequal, the more they are likely to say, 'This society doesn't want us, it discriminates against us,' (and) they fall into the hands of extremists." - Trevor Phillips, chairman of the UK's Commission for Racial Equality.

Nikk
21st January 2004, 03:40 PM
I have always thought that full integration if not assimilation should be the goal of the genuine immigrant although it is very likely that only the children or grandchildren will achieve that goal.

Shaun from Scotland
21st January 2004, 04:46 PM
I lived in the netherlands for 4 years and thought it was one of the best examples of an integrated society I had ever seen.

I suppose these problems are relative......

Earthborn
21st January 2004, 07:00 PM
It is a pity the author of the article doesn't mention what report he means, since it isn't like anything that has been in the news around here, that's for sure. But looking at the timing of the article, it seems to me that the only likely candidate is the report by the Blok Commity. I'll assume that this is the report the author mentions.

For those interested, it can be found here (http://www.tweedekamer.nl/organisatie/voorlichting/commissies/eindrapport_integratiebeleid.jsp) (surprisingly, in Dutch)Dutch are 'polarised' says reportThe report does not mention 'polarisation' at all. In fact all political parties basically agree with eachother about its conclusions. They think it is way too soft.huge ethnic ghettos and subcultures tearing the country apart.The report does not use the words 'huge', 'ghettos' and does not mention 'tearing' anything 'apart'Now the all-party parliamentary report has reached a similar conclusion.The report does not conclude that there should be an end to immigration, it does not advocate, like Pim Fortuyn did, to end anti-discrimination legislation, and does not advocate discrimination of Muslims because of their faith. So the idea that the report reached similar conclusions Pim Fortuyn did is simply untrue.

Also note that the Pim Fortuyn party was the only that was opposed to the formation of the commity, since it 'already knew the integration policies have failed'. A way of thinking that should be familiar to skeptics: gathering evidence isn't necessary if you already made up your mind...It says the attempt to create an integrated multi-ethnic society has failed.No, it mentions that it is a partial success, but not thanks to the government. [Add Libertarian argument here]there were also growing ghettos of foreigners from countries such as Turkey and Morocco.It does not mention ghettos, but it does mention that there are areas where people of specific ethnicity are concentrated. This is unfortunately caused by the fact that people who are not Dutch by origin tend to have lower incomes.The report blamed successive Dutch governments for what had previously been seen as a positive policy designed to make life easier for immigrants - allowing them to be taught in their native languages at primary school.This is simply not true,and the author seriously misunderstood this policy. Immigrant children were not taught in their native language, but were given the option to be taught their native language. They still got their eduction in arithmetic and Dutch language in Dutch, but also learned to read in write in the language of their parents.

Despite this policy, many children of immigrants speak almost exclusively Dutch and are unable to communicate well with their parents, which is more of a problem than a solution to anything, <acronym title="In My Humble Opinion">IMHO</acronym>.In what would mark a reversal of a 30-year-old policy, the report recommended that the country's Muslims should henceforth effectively "become Dutch".Mind you, I haven't yet read the entire report, but I haven't seen it. It would also seem strangely out of place looking at the overall tone of it.Although the Dutch report deals broadly with "immigrants" and their effect on Dutch society, there is no doubt that it is Muslim immigrants who are seen as posing the biggest problem.This is a conclusion that is not supported by the report itself, and seems more like the authors own thoughts.In this, there are similarities with France, where current moves to ban "religious symbols" in schools and public places are aimed primarily at banning the headscarf worn by many Muslim women.Here the author tries to connect the headscarf ban in france with the report, while the report specifically states that wearing a headscarf is a fundamental freedom and should not be restricted unless there are pressing reasons.Opinion surveys all over Europe have detected growing public distrust of Islam in the two years since the 11 September attacks on New York and Washington.Again the author tries to spice up the article by stating something that isn't related with the report at all.In the Netherlands (and elsewhere) there is talk of trying to create a "European" form of Islam - basically a secularised version, where private religious beliefs are tolerated but not any manifestations of Islam which undermine European laws and customs.Since people cannot define the religious beliefs of others, the movement to Europeanize Islam is mostly a movement of Muslims themselves. Since anything that undermines laws are not tolerated in any country, the fact that the most extreme forms of Islamism are not tolerated is obvious. You don't have to invent a different 'secularized' religion for that.Holland seems to be lurching from the multicultural option - in which immigrants keep their own languages and cultures, at the risk of becoming ghettoised - to a policy of assimilation, by which newcomers lose all trace of their original identity and become indistinguishable from their "host" nation other than by the colour of their skin.Well, there are certainly people who believe that this is something to strive for. Since it is physically impossible I don't think such a policy makes much sense and it will never become a success.

Luckily, outside the Pim Fortuyn party there are few people advocating it, though.In the middle is the option of integration - practised with some success in the UK - whereby immigrants retain their distinct cultures but are also encouraged to become part of the general community.Hurray, UK! It is basically what we're trying to do here, the report just mentions that it hasn't always been very successfull.

Jon_in_london
22nd January 2004, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
I lived in the netherlands for 4 years and thought it was one of the best examples of an integrated society I had ever seen.

I suppose these problems are relative......

I visited a year or so ago and understoof that there was a degree of resentment that very few people actually spoke Dutch.

Ermm... /anecdote.

PS why do the Dutch drink beer from champagne flutes?

Shaun from Scotland
22nd January 2004, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I visited a year or so ago and understoof that there was a degree of resentment that very few people actually spoke Dutch.

Ermm... /anecdote.

PS why do the Dutch drink beer from champagne flutes?

Well, there are people like that. But in a general social and work sense people from different cultures got on a hell of a lot better that I have seen in many parts of the UK.

I have never seen beer in champagne flutes, but I got lots of beer in these stupid little sort of half pint tumblers, half full of foam. It apparantely "tastes better".

Personally, I thought it was because they cannot handle their beer the pansies!!!:D :D

Jon_in_london
22nd January 2004, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Earthborn
.Hurray, UK!

Or not? There has certainly been a degree of integration but IMO, its still very far from satisfactory. Take a stroll down Tooting High Street and you will feel very much like an alien in your own land.

You may be suprised at how few non-indigenous people here do not consider themselves British at all.

I dont think teaching immigrants, or even giving immigrants the option of being taught in their native language rather than the language of the country to which they have emmigrated is a very good idea at all.

I read a while back that children of succesful asylum seekers who had just been plonked into a local school had picked up English fantastically fast and were doing very well socially and academicaly.

shuize
22nd January 2004, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Or not? There has certainly been a degree of integration but IMO, its still very far from satisfactory. Take a stroll down Tooting High Street and you will feel very much like an alien in your own land.

You may be suprised at how few non-indigenous people here do not consider themselves British at all.

I dont think teaching immigrants, or even giving immigrants the option of being taught in their native language rather than the language of the country to which they have emmigrated is a very good idea at all.

I read a while back that children of succesful asylum seekers who had just been plonked into a local school had picked up English fantastically fast and were doing very well socially and academicaly.

This is very controversial in the U.S. as well. Surprisingly though, "English only" legislation does quite well among immigrant households.

Jon_in_london
22nd January 2004, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by shuize


This is very controversial in the U.S. as well. Surprisingly though, "English only" legislation does quite well among immigrant households.

IMO, its a no-brainer. But I can imagine there are certain types who would view it as a crime against humanity.

Ed
22nd January 2004, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Jon_in_london


IMO, its a no-brainer. But I can imagine there are certain types who would view it as a crime against humanity.

Not "english only", in some sappy effort to achieve diversity or some such rot, is a sure road to serious unrest long term.

aerocontrols
22nd January 2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Jon_in_london
I read a while back that children of succesful asylum seekers who had just been plonked into a local school had picked up English fantastically fast and were doing very well socially and academicaly.

My current roomate is an Indian whose family moved to Dubai, UAE, when he was 9. At the time he spoke Tamil (his native tongue) and some Hindi.

He was plonked into a school where classes were taught only in English and Arabic. There was an adjustment period while he struggled (he says a couple of months)

He went on to get a Master's at the University of Manchester and is now seeking a PhD at Georgia Tech.

(and he still speaks English with a British accent when he gets drunk or when he's talking to a Brit - sounds like an American otherwise)

One downside is that he regrets not being able to read/write in Tamil and Hindi.

/anecdote

Earthborn
22nd January 2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Jon_in_london
I visited a year or so ago and understoof that there was a degree of resentment that very few people actually spoke Dutch.'Very few' is an obvious exaggeration of how serious a problem it really is. Of course that doesn't stop the media or politics to focus on that side of the story.Or not? There has certainly been a degree of integration but IMO, its still very far from satisfactory.Don't tell the author of the article that it means that basically the Netherlands and Britain are in the same boat, and there really isn't that much difference.Take a stroll down Tooting High Street and you will feel very much like an alien in your own land.Since we live in a multicultural, globalising world, I think that such a think is pretty much inevitable. The only real solution is getting used to it.
I dont think teaching immigrants, or even giving immigrants the option of being taught in their native language rather than the language of the country to which they have emmigrated is a very good idea at all.I don't either, but I think offering kids extra lessons of their own mothertongue doesn't hurt at all. And that's what we're talking about here, despite what the author says.I read a while back that children of succesful asylum seekers who had just been plonked into a local school had picked up English fantastically fast and were doing very well socially and academicaly.And many children of immigrants in the Netherlands are also doing fantastically.Originally posted by aerocontrols
One downside is that he regrets not being able to read/write in Tamil and Hindi.Had he gone to a public school in the Netherlands, he might have been offered lessons in those too. And in Dutch, and English.

aerocontrols
22nd January 2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Earthborn
Since we live in a multicultural, globalising world, I think that such a think is pretty much inevitable.

Actually, since we live in a globalizing world, multiculturalism has arisen as an effort to oppose the homogenization of cultures, which I think is pretty much inevitable.

Our descendants are all going to end up a nice Disney shade of brown, (unless we choose to use genetic modification to hold that off) and they will speak fewer and fewer languages.

MattJ