Only blacks can be "African-americans"?

[CFLarsen]

Students disciplined for award campaign - Posters promoted white student for African American award (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/22/king.controversy.ap/index.html)

OMAHA, Nebraska (AP) -- Officials disciplined students who papered their nearly all-white high school with posters advocating a white student from South Africa for the school's "Distinguished African American Student Award."

I may not have grasped some Americanisms, but why would someone born in Africa, living in the US, not be labelled "African-american", just because he is white?

I have not been able to track down any encyclopedia, directory or dictionary that I know of, where this term only applies to blacks.

(Technically, I prefer the term "dough-colored" instead of "white". Only albinos are white, and I have only seen a few "blacks" that really were black.)

[Ed]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I may not have grasped some Americanisms, but why would someone born in Africa, living in the US, not be labelled "African-american", just because he is white?

I have not been able to track down any encyclopedia, directory or dictionary that I know of, where this term only applies to blacks.

(Technically, I prefer the term "dough-colored" instead of "white". Only albinos are white, and I have only seen a few "blacks" that really were black.)

Cuz, Claus, people live in mortal dread of giving offence of any kind in this country. You would think, belligerant as we are, that we would do some ball kicking every now and then. No.

This is probably being viewed as "mocking" people of color. Poor boopsies. As long as we treat blacks as pets we will have racial problems.

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I have not been able to track down any encyclopedia, directory or dictionary that I know of, where this term only applies to blacks.

Really?

A Black American of African ancestry.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=african-american

an American of African and especially of black African descent
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=afro-american

An American (esp. a North American) of African origin; a black American.
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00305646?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=african-american&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10

Logical or not, "African-American" is pretty much the polite word for "black" in the US.

[CFLarsen]

Nasarius,

Dictionary.com does not exclude whites:

Black: Of or belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin: the Black population of South Africa. Of or belonging to an American ethnic group descended from African peoples having dark skin; African-American.

Now, I would love to see the definition of "white skin" and "black skin".

Webster does not say "only black". It says "especially". I gather it is because that the population in Africa could be percieved as "black". However, that does not exclude whites born in Africa.

That word, "especially". I am not interested in the "polite" word. I am interested in the definition.

Ed,

So I gathered.

[Luke T.]

A black American is about as African as I am.

[SRW]

I stopped using the term after a Jamaican friend told me how insulted he was by people putting him in that category. He said "I am not African or American, so unless you know you should not use such a label."

I want to be called from here on out as a German-Irish-French-Dutch-Bulgarian-English-Cherokee-Iroquoian-American.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by SRW
I stopped using the term after a Jamaican friend told me how insulted he was by people putting him in that category. He said "I am not African or American, so unless you know you should not use such a label."

I want to be called from here on out as a German-Irish-French-Dutch-Bulgarian-English-Cherokee-Iroquoian-American.

I always wanted to be called an Anglo-Canadian, but it never caught on.

[Thug AMish]

theres a white south african in my class, she's definately more African than all of the blacks...
When she moved here it just reaffirmed my belief that the term 'african-american' is not only long winded but stupid as well. As a matter of fact, I think most concepts of race are pretty stupid, thats why I normally put 'other' down on standardized forms :p they always forget the Russo-german-irish-mohawk-American category, idiots.

[WildCat]

The label "African-American" is indeed an idiotic name. For one thing, there are 3 races indigenous to Africa (Arabs (which, I believe, are classified as Caucasians), Negros, and Bushmen (which are distinct genetically and linguistically from Negros). Then of course there's the European Caucasians that have lived there for hundreds of years. Thus, each can claim the "African-American" label, assuming they then came to America of course.

Race has very little real meaning when you get down to it, there is much gene flow between all races.

There was an article several years ago in Scientific American that dealt w/ the different races indigenous to Africa, interestingly the Europeans and Negros arrived in South Africa at roughly the same time, pushing the native Bushmen into the desert. Yet no one even considers the poor Bushmen in S. African politics!

My maternal great grandparents (German speaking) left Alsace for the US immediately after WWI, when the region became part of France. Not sure whether that makes me French (the horror!) or German... think I'll go w/ German. ;)

[epepke]

Originally posted by Nasarius
Logical or not, "African-American" is pretty much the polite word for "black" in the US.

No, actually it's the term for "black" that will offend only about 1/3 of the people, while "black" is the term for "African-American" that will offend a different 1/3 of the people.

[corplinx]

African-american seemingly popped up overnight. There was a bit of hoopla for around 2 months that centered on "what do you call a black guy". I think it might have been after Ross Perot called them "you people".

Negro (as in United Negro College Fund) was deemed unacceptable
Colored (as in National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples) was deemed unacceptable
Black was frowned upon.
Afro-american was popular for like, a week, and I think Jesse Jackson and a few others rightly mentioned that not all americans with a high melanin content have afros.
African-american is the term we were left with after the great "what do you call black people?"shootout of the mid or early nineties.

[Thug AMish]

'What do you call black people?'
hmm, I was always ok with just, 'people', but that over simplifies things a bit, doesn't it. I personally don't see why anyone would want to be distinguished by their race, but hey, this is america. :D

[SRW]

BTW African-American is no longer the preferred politically correct term, I took a diversity training workshop and we were told that there are white people and "persons of color", which can include disadvantaged white women.

Also white republican men were considered a special class of the white race.

[KelvinG]

I remember the Sports Illustrated website had a story about Calgary Flames forward Jarome Iginla a couple years back. The article commented that Iginla is "one of the few African American players in hockey."

I e-mailed the author and told him that Ignila was born and raised in Canada. I received no response but realized the guy probably knew Iginla was born in Canada, but felt compelled to be politically correct and call him an "African American" instead of an "African Canadian", which I've never heard used before. Of course, he could have just called him "black."
Is that really so bad?
I wonder what Jarome would think?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Luke T.
A black American is about as African as I am.

This is the point I have been making for years. I would estimate that 99.9% of "African-Americans" have never even been there. It would make as much sense as calling me an "Asian-American". I am white, and have never been to Asia. But I am as much an Asian-American as most black folks are African-American.

And, of course, given that current evidence says Africa is where we all came from, then we are all African-American, thus rendering the term meaningless.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Luke T.
A black American is about as African as I am.

This is the point I have been making for years. I would estimate that 99.9% of "African-Americans" have never even been there. It would make as much sense as calling me an "Asian-American". I am white, and have never been to Asia. But I am as much an Asian-American as most black folks are African-American.

[BTox]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer

And, of course, given that current evidence says Africa is where we all came from, then we are all African-American, thus rendering the term meaningless.

Yep - we are all of African descent - and all were of color at some time in our descendants' past.

[Mike B.]

Claus,
What do most people in the EU use as terminology for a black person in their country or refering to one in the US?

[Ed]

Originally posted by corplinx
African-american seemingly popped up overnight. There was a bit of hoopla for around 2 months that centered on "what do you call a black guy". I think it might have been after Ross Perot called them "you people".

Negro (as in United Negro College Fund) was deemed unacceptable
Colored (as in National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples) was deemed unacceptable
Black was frowned upon.
Afro-american was popular for like, a week, and I think Jesse Jackson and a few others rightly mentioned that not all americans with a high melanin content have afros.
African-american is the term we were left with after the great "what do you call black people?"shootout of the mid or early nineties.

I beg to differ. "Afro-American" was the term of choice in the 70's.

[Agammamon]

I've always wondered about the term "African-American" and why people use it. Most Blacks that I know/work with have had families in this country longer than mine and I don't consider myself to be a "European-American". Part of it seems to be a misperception of Africa as a monolithic culture. It might be more accurate for someone to describe themselves as Nation(or Tribe)-American. Of course you could just consider yourself a plain old American.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Claus,
What do most people in the EU use as terminology for a black person in their country or refering to one in the US?

In what language ? :)

In French, it would be "Noir" (no insult intended or taken most of the time), or Africain, or Antillais (French Carribean) when such origin is known or supposed, and "noir Américain" (black American). Calling any dark colored person "un black" is usually a compliment (= cool).

Given the fact that the majority of blacks living in Europe weren't born here, and that they don't form an homogeneous population anyway (lots of different countries of origin, languages, customs, religions, ...), there hasn't (yet) been any movement asking for a PC word.

As an "African-European" (50/50) born in Europe, I truly hope this kind of foolishness will remain an American specialty (and finally disappear).

As The Central Scrutinizer remarked

" I would estimate that 99.9% of "African-Americans" have never even been there."

The term has therefore been a source of amusement and sometimes irritation for Africans ... ;)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Claus,
What do most people in the EU use as terminology for a black person in their country or refering to one in the US?

No idea - we don't speak EU :)

In Denmark, we don't have that many blacks, and those that are here usually really come from Africa - so they are called Africans - or even by their country name. You see, we are generally aware of the fact that Africa consists of different nations.

We also use the term "neger" - negro. It doesn't seem to be used in a derogatory manner. Now, if you call someone from the island of Bornholm a "reserve Swede", that's another thing....!! :D

[Tmy]

This is silly. We all know what the term means. Sure its not accurate. Neither is "black" or "white" because people arent those colors. Do you think "brown" will catch on?

Mexico, Canada, United States, Brazil, ect... are all on the continent of America. So we should call all those people "Americans"?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by CFLarsen



In Denmark, we don't have that many blacks, and those that are here usually really come from Africa - so they are called Africans - or even by their country name. You see, we are generally aware of the fact that Africa consists of different nations.


Here in the states many African American errrr I mean blacks, ummm how about dark skinned folks were brought over thru slavery. When the white man errrr I mean eggshell colored man brought them over they pretty much cut all ties with their African heritage so they really lost any link to tribes or countries.

[Richard G]

If I'm an American living in Africa, does that make me an American African?

Political correctness is the epitemy of human stupidity.

[Flo]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
We also use the term "neger" - negro. It doesn't seem to be used in a derogatory manner.

Yes, but be careful. Don't be surprised if an African becomes suddenly silent and sports an odd smile if you use the word in front of him/her, even if you didn't intend to offend. It has its roots in the colonial times, when it has never, ever, been used in a positive way and has remained an insult to the ears of most Africans, although many are aware that many Europeans may not realise it.

OTO, I'm still wating to hear someone in France using "nègre" without intent to insult ...

[hgc]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
...

In Denmark, we don't have that many blacks, and those that are here usually really come from Africa - so they are called Africans - or even by their country name. You see, we are generally aware of the fact that Africa consists of different nations.
... How very snide of you. If blacks in America knew the country of origin of their ancestors, they might also identify with that specific country. But don't let a little common sense get in the way of a superior attitude.

[Snide]

Originally posted by Richard G
Political correctness is the epitemy of human stupidity. There you have it.

[Snide]

Originally posted by hgc
How very snide of you. If blacks in America knew the country of origin of their ancestors, they might also identify with that specific country. But don't let a little common sense get in the way of a superior attitude. No kidding. What was that all about, Claus? I've come to expect better from you.

dang typo

[Tricky]

While it is true that "race" is an artificial concept used to generalize about physical characteristics which tend to occur in groups, there is no doubt that it is a useful concept. In police reports, they simply cut to the chase and use the words most likely to identify the person, such as black, white, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, oriental etc. While this may not be technically correct, it gives people a quick starting point to screen out those who don't meet the description. Obviously, it won't work for all people, as some do match the general description of any single category.

As for origins, it is pretty obvious that most negroid Americans have a greater and more recent ancestry from the African continent than most caucasian Americans. Of course, there are exceptions, but to state, as Luke has done, that "African Americans" are not African sounds as if he want's to deny people their heritage. Would Luke tell Mr. O'Malley that he is not Irish? He might, but he'd be looking for a fight.

[Tmy]

I dont think the story is so much about PC. I think its more about the passive agressive resentment many whites have towrads black people.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Tmy
I dont think the story is so much about PC. I think its more about the passive agressive resentment many whites have towrads black people.


and blacks toward white ;)

[karl]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

We also use the term "neger" - negro. It doesn't seem to be used in a derogatory manner. Now, if you call someone from the island of Bornholm a "reserve Swede", that's another thing....!! :D

In Sweden "neger" is considered a derogatory word. I guess it's because we are a bit more Americanized than you folks, for better or (mostly) worse.

It was a sad day when political correctness forced us to come up with a new name for our classic candy "negro balls." :(

[Flo]

Originally posted by Tricky
As for origins, it is pretty obvious that most negroid Americans have a greater and more recent ancestry from the African continent than most caucasian Americans. Of course, there are exceptions, but to state, as Luke has done, that "African Americans" are not African sounds as if he want's to deny people their heritage. Would Luke tell Mr. O'Malley that he is not Irish? He might, but he'd be looking for a fight.


If you define people by their physical characteristic, you're right. If you talk about culture, then Luke is right. Having been born and raised in Europe, my only link with Africa is my skin color, which is very, very little, and Africans don't generally recognise me as a compatriot (and when they pretend they do, most of the time they want to borrow money :D). In the case of people who have left their continent of origin so long ago, the links are even more tenuous.

[Flo]

Originally posted by karl


In Sweden "neger" is considered a derogatory word. I guess it's because we are a bit more Americanized than you folks, for better or (mostly) worse.

It was a sad day when political correctness forced us to come up with a new name for our classic candy "negro balls." :(


When I was a kid, one of my favorite Swiss candy was called "tête de nègre" (negro's head = chocolate covered whipped-cream). I used to pretend I wasn't offended by the jokes going along my eating them. The name has been altered some years ago in order not to offend the growing African population. It is now "tête de chocolat".

[Snide]

Originally posted by karl


It was a sad day when political correctness forced us to come up with a new name for our classic candy "negro balls." :( Are you kidding? I get ticked off at PC too, but losing that name doesn't seem to be a bad thing.

I'm embarrassed to know what my parents' generation called Brazil nuts here.

...and the original lyrics to "Eenie meenie minie moe..."

[Thanz]

Originally posted by hgc
How very snide of you. If blacks in America knew the country of origin of their ancestors, they might also identify with that specific country. But don't let a little common sense get in the way of a superior attitude.
If you don't even know the country of your ancestors, why bother identifying with the continent at all? My mother came from England and my father's father from the Ukraine, but I don't indentify myself as "European Canadian" or "Anglo Canadian" or "Ukranian Canadian", even though I do keep some traditions from those cultures.

But if an American family (American as in living in the United States of America) has lived there for generations, and does not keep any sort of African traditions, and does not know which country their ancestors came from, what is the point of identifying them with Africa?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Thanz

If you don't even know the country of your ancestors, why bother identifying with the continent at all? My mother came from England and my father's father from the Ukraine, but I don't indentify myself as "European Canadian" or "Anglo Canadian" or "Ukranian Canadian", even though I do keep some traditions from those cultures.

But if an American family (American as in living in the United States of America) has lived there for generations, and does not keep any sort of African traditions, and does not know which country their ancestors came from, what is the point of identifying them with Africa?
Probably it is just to have a point of reference, even though it may not be accurate, and certainly not complete.

If anyone asks me my heritage, I generally say Italian (my grandfather was an immigrant) even though I know nothing of the language, have no contact with my Italian relatives and hate "The Godfather".

[patnray]

The term "African-American" is in trouble. DNA analysis shows that black skin color is not unique to African origins (people of the West Indies, among others, may have dark pigment as well, indistinguishable visually from Africans) . Many people who consider themselves African-American have discovered their DNA profile is not African at all. And some people who appear caucasian have high correlation to African DNA profiles.

Since skin color is not a reliable indicator of origins, it is incorrect to label dark skinned people as African-American (or African at all) based solely on skin color.

[Tmy]

Well can some one come up with a better term that doesnt have some flaw????

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tmy
Well can some one come up with a better term that doesnt have some flaw????

American?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Ed
American?
Nope. Somebody might think you were American. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=20) Talk about a case of mistaken identity!:D

[The idea]

Originally posted by Tmy
Well can some one come up with a better term that doesnt have some flaw????
Why not simply use an arbitrary sequence of sounds that doesn't have any pre-existing meaning? Then there won't be any conflict with established usage.

For example,
(1) Jakkian (The letter "J" is very accessible on keyboards but underused in the English language)
(2) Vopean
(3) Ambeyan

[BillyTK]

I don't particularly have a problem with how people choose to identify themselves; it's not like there's some ultimate measure with which to guage the accuracy of these labels. Let's face it, not all gays are of a sunny disposition, dykes don't hold much water, soviet (this one is for the oldies, but the younger generation might be interested in finding out what that groovy fashion label is named after) is actually a form of council, and why is it only people from the USA are called Americans?

By the way, I'm Intransigent Irish Roman Catholic, if I remember right.

[SRW]

Originally posted by Tmy
Well can some one come up with a better term that doesnt have some flaw????

The term in current use is "Person OF Color".

[The idea]

Originally posted by BillyTK
I don't particularly have a problem with how people choose to identify themselves; it's not like there's some ultimate measure with which to guage the accuracy of these labels. Let's face it, not all gays are of a sunny disposition, dykes don't hold much water [...]
You forgot to mention Brights. Anyway, the issue is not necessarily how people choose to identify themselves. The issue is also:
(1) how various people (school teachers, reporters, etc.) are required to identify people
(2) the words someone else uses to classify you if you are being classified

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by hgc
How very snide of you. If blacks in America knew the country of origin of their ancestors, they might also identify with that specific country. But don't let a little common sense get in the way of a superior attitude.

No sniding (?) intended. I was referring to the general geographical ignorance of Americans.

I just find it silly to refer to a place of origin that goes maybe 5-8 generations back, and then a whole continent.

In many cases, there are records of slave auctions, including the area in Africa where they came from. So, it shouldn't be an impossible task to track down the real place of origin.

What is so bad about being called "Americans"?

Originally posted by Flo
Yes, but be careful. Don't be surprised if an African becomes suddenly silent and sports an odd smile if you use the word in front of him/her, even if you didn't intend to offend. It has its roots in the colonial times, when it has never, ever, been used in a positive way and has remained an insult to the ears of most Africans, although many are aware that many Europeans may not realise it.

If it is perceived as an insult, it should be made clear.

Originally posted by karl
In Sweden "neger" is considered a derogatory word.

Strangely enough, a "neger" in Denmark is also a ghost-writer. I have no idea where that meaning comes from!

Originally posted by karl
I guess it's because we are a bit more Americanized than you folks, for better or (mostly) worse.

Really? I got one word for you: Mjukvara. Now, please explain that to our American friends! ;)

Originally posted by karl
It was a sad day when political correctness forced us to come up with a new name for our classic candy "negro balls." :(

That's right! I don't think they are called that here anymore either. "Foam balls", I think...(I never touch the stuff, it is yucky)

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

What is so bad about being called "Americans"?
The next time you see a Canadian tourist in your country (they are easy to spot - they have the Canadian flag sewn into their backpacks) you should ask them this question!

Canadians put the flags on their backpacks and wear Canadian flag pins to try and prevent confusion with Americans. American tourists seem to have the reputation of being loud, rude, obnoxious and self centred, while Canadians have a reputation of being quiet, polite and nice to a fault. Of course these are sterotypes, but I would rather have someone assume that I am nice rather than assume that I am a jerk.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by BillyTK
...Irish Roman Catholic, if I remember right. Not many of that ilk with the name Billy.

[karl]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

That's right! I don't think they are called that here anymore either. "Foam balls", I think...(I never touch the stuff, it is yucky)

"Foam"? My poor, uneducated neighbor -- this (http://hem.passagen.se/acjo/recept/godis/negerbollar.htm) is negro balls. And they're anything but yucky.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Thanz
The next time you see a Canadian tourist in your country (they are easy to spot - they have the Canadian flag sewn into their backpacks)
I just look for the flapping head and beady eyes. ;)

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Nasarius


Really?


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=african-american


http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=afro-american


http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00305646?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=african-american&edition=3e&first=1&max_to_show=10

Logical or not, "African-American" is pretty much the polite word for "black" in the US.

And black used to be the polite word for that "N" word.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by SRW


The term in current use is "Person OF Color".

Odd term, since black is actually the absence of color.

[Tez]

Originally posted by WildCat
... interestingly the Europeans and Negros arrived in South Africa at roughly the same time, pushing the native Bushmen into the desert.

Do you have a reference for this?

I'm not sure which group of people you mean by the Negros. My rough understanding (which comes only from having lived in southern Africa - Malawi and Zimbabwe - for 12 years, and not from any academic study) is that there a broadly speaking 3 black people groups involved. Bantu tribes - which in South Africa are the vast majority, Zulu-type groups - e.g. the Zulu in RSA, Ngoni in Malawi, Matabele in Zimbabwe, and thirdly the San Bushmen, who had been pushed into the desert long before the Europeans arrived.

Now the British fought a lot of bloody battles with the Zulu who were definitely there before they arrived. I'd be surprised if they'd only just arrived on the previous flight....

Zikomo kwambiri...

[epepke]

Originally posted by Thanz
Canadians put the flags on their backpacks and wear Canadian flag pins to try and prevent confusion with Americans. American tourists seem to have the reputation of being loud, rude, obnoxious and self centred, while Canadians have a reputation of being quiet, polite and nice to a fault. Of course these are sterotypes, but I would rather have someone assume that I am nice rather than assume that I am a jerk.

Actually, I know quite a lot of people in Europe who find Canadian tourists worse than American tourists.

A client of mine once related a story of a Moroccan he knew who had a sure-fire way of making Canadians pay more for items. You have something that's really worth one, but you normally ask for four expecting to be bargained down to two. But when you see a Canadian (usually not hard to spot), you ask for five. Then you go for a bit and say, oh, sorry, you're Canadian! I didn't see that. Five is the price for Americans. Canadians only have to pay four. The Canadian is generally so pleased at being recognized as not American that he and/or she will fork over four.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Not many of that ilk with the name Billy.
True; the name's more closely associated with the other lot. But I was named for my paternal grandfather, who walked in darkness in a number of ways...

[TomStockholm]

Didn't Al Bundy suggest that women should be known as gyno Americans...

[Thanz]

Originally posted by epepke


Actually, I know quite a lot of people in Europe who find Canadian tourists worse than American tourists.
I don't doubt it. It is all based on personal experience. I wasn't trying to say that American tourists are worse than Canadian tourists, just that there seems to be a stereotype that they are.

A client of mine once related a story of a Moroccan he knew who had a sure-fire way of making Canadians pay more for items. You have something that's really worth one, but you normally ask for four expecting to be bargained down to two. But when you see a Canadian (usually not hard to spot), you ask for five. Then you go for a bit and say, oh, sorry, you're Canadian! I didn't see that. Five is the price for Americans. Canadians only have to pay four. The Canadian is generally so pleased at being recognized as not American that he and/or she will fork over four.
Hah! That's funny. Sounds like a smart businessman. And all this time I thought they were just being nice to me...

[Flo]

Originally posted by epepke


Actually, I know quite a lot of people in Europe who find Canadian tourists worse than American tourists.

A client of mine once related a story of a Moroccan he knew who had a sure-fire way of making Canadians pay more for items. You have something that's really worth one, but you normally ask for four expecting to be bargained down to two. But when you see a Canadian (usually not hard to spot), you ask for five. Then you go for a bit and say, oh, sorry, you're Canadian! I didn't see that. Five is the price for Americans. Canadians only have to pay four. The Canadian is generally so pleased at being recognized as not American that he and/or she will fork over four.


Actually, quite a number of supposedly Canadian tourists are in fact Americans who think that affixing a Canadian flag on their backpack will fool Europeans and get them a better treatment :D

[gnome]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal


And black used to be the polite word for that "N" word.

Based on my personal experience, 95% of blacks that I have met have no problem with the term. Those that do, politely correct me and I respect their preference after that. If I'm worried about offending people that seems to have as good a record as anything else.

But I can't say I know many... any personal experience from someone in a more diverse neighborhood?

I would also add that I suspect that content and tone matters more than vocabulary. I know some that can make "african-american" sound like a racial slur by inserting a disdainful pause before saying it, and seeming to put imaginary quotation marks around it.

Fussing over terminology may be a way of trying to get a free pass on such subtleties.

[Tmy]

Do people make this big o deal over the term "French Canadian"?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Tmy
Do people make this big o deal over the term "French Canadian"?
The term itself? No. But it is not equivalent to "African American" because it does not refer to France, but rather the French language. A "French Canadian" is someone who speaks French as a first language.

There is a lot of fuss over what the French Canadians in Quebec want to do, with a separatist movement that wants Quebec to be a soverign nation. Of course, then they wouldn't be French Canadians anymore...

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Thanz

The term itself? No. But it is not equivalent to "African American" because it does not refer to France, but rather the French language. A "French Canadian" is someone who speaks French as a first language.

There is a lot of fuss over what the French Canadians in Quebec want to do, with a separatist movement that wants Quebec to be a soverign nation. Of course, then they wouldn't be French Canadians anymore...

Thast funny cause Ive never heard of anyone called a Spanish Canadian merely because Spanish is their first language.

Frech Canadian is a descriptive term. Like African American. Sure its not too accurate but they do present a specific mental image.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Tmy


Thast funny cause Ive never heard of anyone called a Spanish Canadian merely because Spanish is their first language.

Frech Canadian is a descriptive term. Like African American. Sure its not too accurate but they do present a specific mental image.


Almost as descriptive as "Swiss-German" ...

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Tmy


Thast funny cause Ive never heard of anyone called a Spanish Canadian merely because Spanish is their first language.
And you wouldn't. Spanish speaking people were not one of the founding cultures of Canada.

Frech Canadian is a descriptive term. Like African American. Sure its not too accurate but they do present a specific mental image.
Descriptive, yes - but not like African American. With French Canadian, the description is literally accurate - they are a Canadian who speaks french. With African American, it could be used to describe someone who does not have any real connection to Africa at all.

Further, French Canadian has a certain cultural significance attached to it as well. If you go to Quebec, it has a different "feel" to it. French Canadians have their own traditions, etc, that are not all shared with the rest of the country. French Canadian, as a term, has beeen around for a long time. It was not some sort of politically correct thing that someone made up one day. And it has very little (if anything) to do with Fraqnce anymore and everything to do with the language.

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by Flo
Actually, quite a number of supposedly Canadian tourists are in fact Americans who think that affixing a Canadian flag on their backpack will fool Europeans and get them a better treatment :D
Pretending to be Canadian kept me from getting mugged or worse in Spain in the 80's.

[Skeptic]

I may not have grasped some Americanisms, but why would someone born in Africa, living in the US, not be labelled "African-american", just because he is white?

Because "African-American" is simply American for "black person" (a.k.a. "person of color", "black", "negro", "colored", etc., etc., etc. in the last 100 years). English is not a formal language; terms do not necessarily mean what they "should" formally or logically mean. E.g., "Congress" is not the opposite of "progress", you drive on the parkway and park in the driveway, being "legally drunk" means just the opposite, and so on.

In particular with races and religions, "antisemite" still means "hater of jews" (and not of semites in general), "African-American" still means black (and not anybody from Africa), and so does "colored person" or "person of color"--despite the fact that everybody has some color, including white people. Likewise, "oriental" or "asian" still means what used to be called a person of the "Mongoloid race", even if born in the USA and never been outside it, and does not include (say) British subjects from Hong Kong or French officers from Vietnam.

None of this makes any LOGICAL sense, but then again, little in race relations--or spoken languages--does. Terms get their meanings due to historical and contingent reasons, not because somebody made sure they are logically consistent. Just because "African American" is a silly and illogical term for "black person" (and it is) doesn't mean it means something else. "African American" DOES mean "black person", and, therefore, a white South African is not an "African American".

[Dancing David]

The issues is that african american is a code word for black, which used to be colored and before that was n****r. Most americans would mistakenly call a person from north arfica an "Arab" or sand n****r. So while an american may be of african descent because thier ancestors came from africa (like Tunisia and Morrocco), they will not be reffered to as african american unless they are black.

That is why I like to use the phrase ethic european or ethnic african ,because we are all amaericans of different ethnicities.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by aerosolben

Pretending to be Canadian kept me from getting mugged or worse in Spain in the 80's.

Did the muggers think "Oh Canadians. They have no money." :p

[CWL]

Originally posted by patnray
The term "African-American" is in trouble. DNA analysis shows that black skin color is not unique to African origins (people of the West Indies, among others, may have dark pigment as well, indistinguishable visually from Africans).

I thought that today's West Indians were descendants from Africans?

Anyhow, the point still stands as e.g. people from India and Australia may have dark skin as well as Africans.

"Race" applied to humans is a rather unscientific concept. We simply do not differ enough genetically (cp. "race" as applied to dogs).

[RussDill]

Originally posted by epepke


Actually, I know quite a lot of people in Europe who find Canadian tourists worse than American tourists.

A client of mine once related a story of a Moroccan he knew who had a sure-fire way of making Canadians pay more for items. You have something that's really worth one, but you normally ask for four expecting to be bargained down to two. But when you see a Canadian (usually not hard to spot), you ask for five. Then you go for a bit and say, oh, sorry, you're Canadian! I didn't see that. Five is the price for Americans. Canadians only have to pay four. The Canadian is generally so pleased at being recognized as not American that he and/or she will fork over four.

The funny thing is, half of them are probably actually wuss americans wearing canadian flags.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Tez


Do you have a reference for this?

I'm not sure which group of people you mean by the Negros. My rough understanding (which comes only from having lived in southern Africa - Malawi and Zimbabwe - for 12 years, and not from any academic study) is that there a broadly speaking 3 black people groups involved. Bantu tribes - which in South Africa are the vast majority, Zulu-type groups - e.g. the Zulu in RSA, Ngoni in Malawi, Matabele in Zimbabwe, and thirdly the San Bushmen, who had been pushed into the desert long before the Europeans arrived.

Now the British fought a lot of bloody battles with the Zulu who were definitely there before they arrived. I'd be surprised if they'd only just arrived on the previous flight....

Zikomo kwambiri...
The Dutch were there long before the British! IIRC, the Scientific American article was about the Bantu-speaking Negros, quite different from the San Bushmen both linguistically and genetically. When the Dutch (might have been the Portugese, I really have to find this article again!) arrived in S. Africa, there were Bantu speaking Negro tribes in S. Africa, but only east of the Fish River. Reason being that their crops were not adapted to the climate on the other side. The San were the original inhabitants of the area (basically all of southern Africa) though, over the centuries they lost ground to the metal wielding, agricultural (and thus greater numbered) Bantu speaking Negros. (Yes, it feels weird using that term as an American, seems so 1920's). But when the European settlers arrived (late 1500's, early 1600's), the Bantu were only recently in the area. The Europeans first settled in San territory, only after nearly 200 years and many wars were they able to conquer all of S. Africa.

I'll try to find the specific issue this article was in, I may even (shudder) have to go consult the Reader's Guide in a library. You know, where you used to have to go look up things before the internet. ;)

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by Tmy
Did the muggers think "Oh Canadians. They have no money." :p
:)

In case anyone was wondering, that was not hyperbole. It sounds like it in retrospect, so I thought I'd clarify. I was actually accosted by threatening Spaniards who asked if I was American.

[WildCat]

Okay, now I know why I haven't been able to find that article - it didn't appear in Scientific American at all! It was in the Feb. 1994 edition of Discover, and was entitled "How Africa Became Black" by Jared Diamond, a professor at UCLA. The article was an excerpt from his book Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393317552/qid=1075160021/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5468977-3000652). I believe it is Chapter 19 from that book.

So my memory of it is 10 years old, and could be convoluted. ;)

And, of course, that edition is mysteriously missing from my back issues of Discover. :(