What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

[edge]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.




The bible tells us/informs us that the first invention was probably a needle, they apparently had a model to go by.
( 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:),
These are in the fossil records buried with Cro-Magnon which appeared around 50,000 years ago and we can definitely say they are our ancestors.

The first thing Adam and Eve do is make cloths.
Had to be the first invention, and obviously it must have been colder all of a sudden as time goes by, Think about it, if you go around naked all the time the temperatures had to be much warmer, if you were wearing clothing such as skins and furs in even subtropical weather that is going to be very warm to the point of sweating.

Or they were the first inventors of actual disposable cloths made out of leaves that they would have to stitch together also.

All of a sudden science is born.

If it’s getting colder then fire may or may not of been first.
About 20,000, 10,000 years later another catastrophe happens with a objects that strikes the earth, some of the evidence is shrapnel from that impactor in the mammals fossils some of it is Magnetic black sand.

These were multiple strikes: Here’s one
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/27448/




The space rock that carved Meteor Crater in Arizona hit the planet much more slowly than astronomers once figured, but still 10 times faster than a rifle bullet.


And then we have an example of these.

In 1908, a good-sized asteroid -- more stony in nature -- exploded above the surface of Siberia, flatting hundreds of miles of forest but leaving almost no extraterrestrial trace.
Both from here :

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050309_meteor_crater.html


That’s two,



History of Lonar

According to scientists, about 50000 years ago a massive meteor entered into the Earth's gravitational forces range. 60 meter long and weighing 20 lac ton it was racing at a speed of 25 kms per second towards the planet.
When it struck the earth the energy released was equivalent to that released by six-megaton atom bombs. The impact was so severe that rocks from all sides came to the surface and reached the height of 20 meters. So strong was the impact that it left a massive crater 170 meter deep and with 1800 meter in diameter. Today it is a natural salt-water lake.

That’s three: http://us.makemytrip.com/destination/lonar/lonar.htm

Lost civilizations?
A wet Egypt?

Most Egyptologists believe the Great Sphinx on the Giza plateau is about 4,500 years old. But that number is just that - a belief, a theory, not a fact. As Robert Bauval says in "The Age of the Sphinx," "there was no inscriptions - not a single one - either carved on a wall or a stela or written on the throngs of papyri" that associates the Sphinx with this time period. So when was it built? John Anthony West challenged the accepted age of the monument when he noted the vertical weathering on its base, which could only have been caused by long exposure to water in the form of heavy rains. In the middle of the desert? Where did the water come from? It so happens that this area of the world experienced such rains - about 10,500 years ago! This would make the Sphinx more than twice its currently accepted age. Bauval and Graham Hancock have calculated that the Great Pyramid likewise dates back to about 10,500 B.C. - predating the Egyptian civilization. This raises the questions: Who built them and why?
More information: 10 here http://paranormal.about.com/cs/lostworlds/a/aa020204.htm



Puma Punku is believed to have once contained a great wharf, and a massive four part structure. Yet all that remains today are megalithic ruins from some cataclysmic event in history. A great earthquake? A comet that came too close to the Earth? A worldwide flood? These are all possible causes to the destruction of the once great structure that is now the ruins of Puma Punku.
Not only is there evidence to support the claim of a cataclysmic flood, but there is even evidence to support the theory that people once lived there before such a flood even occurred. The suspected flood could have happened somewhere around 12,000 years ago, and there is scientific evidence of tools, bones, and other material within flood alluvia, which suggests that a civilized people were there prior to any flood. Other evidence, that being carvings of bearded people that are not Andean, have been recorded throughout the area.


http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco


The discovery of a prehistoric graveyard in the Sahara reveals details of a Stoen Age race from when the land was lush and green. The site of interest is in Niger in the Tenere desert, which is presently among the dryest spots of the Sahara.
Scientists have established that many thousands of years ago, this was a veritable grassland populated by flora and fauna. Bones remains of giraffes, warthogs and elephants lend credence to this theory.
This is where the Kiffian race lived 10,000 years ago. They were sturdy people who lived to be up to 6 feet tall and had a solid diet. But this race was wiped out by a dry spell and replaced during the next monsoons by the Tenerians who were shorter and sturdier.
These dramatic changes in the Sahara climate are being attributed to fluctuations in the Earth's orbit that increased temperatures in the region while reducing rainfall.


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/1131422-sahara-desert

Sub humans and possibly hybrids are now gone at about the 40,000 year mark and Neanderthals have taken a major hit and by the time of the next impact probably a comet this time which happened about 12,900 years ago Neanderthals are gone and only humans remain.
The flood event takes place at this time.
Tweak the timelines a little and it seems to work out.
To say that pre-diluvia people were primitive is false they have about 40,000 years to build all these monuments that we are puzzled over.


These two events are re-creations of an older one.

[Calculon]

Whatever.

Easter and xmas existed before christians....they mark the Vernal Equinox and Winter Solstice

But I guess when pagans celebrated them, they were mean to each other.

Also, if Jesus lived, he was born when young lambs were around...so not in the Winter anyways.

[Skeptic Ginger]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.I haven't noticed any changes. The Pope continues to ignore the victims of the church in what appears to be an attempt to downplay his role in allowing the perpetrators to continue.

The religious regime in Iran is still working to get a nuclear weapon because in part they feel threatened by Christian and Jewish dominated countries.

Scott Roeder's friends still want to murder physicians and other health care workers believing they get to carry out their sanctimonious beliefs. The Evangelicals still hate gays but continue to pretend they only hate the behavior.

I could go on but it's a well known list and you haven't presented anything showing your claim to be true that Easter matters. In fact, I don't believe you can show Easter commemorates a real event, but that's another thread topic.


The bible tells us/informs us that the first invention was probably a needle, they apparently had a model to go by.
( 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:),
These are in the fossil records buried with Cro-Magnon which appeared around 50,000 years ago and we can definitely say they are our ancestors.A needle was not the first tool artifact. And according to this web page from Dennis O'Neil* (http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_5.htm):The first known sewing needle came from southwestern France and dates to about 25,000 years ago.

*Created and maintained by Dr. Dennis O'Neil
Behavioral Sciences Department, Palomar College, San Marcos, California
This page was last updated on Monday, January 04, 2010.
Copyright © 1999-2010 by Dennis O'Neil. All rights reserved.

The earliest tools yet discovered:

Flaked stones and old bones: Biological and cultural evolution at the dawn of technology (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/109858418/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)The appearance of Oldowan sites ca. 2.6 million years ago (Ma) may reflect one of the most important adaptive shifts in human evolution. Stone artifact manufacture, large mammal butchery, and novel transport and discard behaviors led to the accumulation of the first recognized archaeological debris.



The first thing Adam and Eve do is make cloths.
Had to be the first invention, and obviously it must have been colder all of a sudden as time goes by, Think about it, if you go around naked all the time the temperatures had to be much warmer, if you were wearing clothing such as skins and furs in even subtropical weather that is going to be very warm to the point of sweating.According to the paintings they wore fig leaves. ;)

Or they were the first inventors of actual disposable cloths made out of leaves that they would have to stitch together also.What did they use for thread?

From Wiki, because it's an easy find:First recorded use
According to archaeologists and anthropologists, the earliest clothing likely consisted of fur, leather, leaves or grass which were draped, wrapped or tied around the body. Knowledge of such clothing remains inferential, since clothing materials deteriorate quickly compared to stone, bone, shell and metal artifacts. Archeologists have identified very early sewing needles of bone and ivory from about 30,000 BC, found near Kostenki, Russia in 1988.[citation needed] Dyed flax fibers that could have been used in clothing have been found in a prehistoric cave in the Republic of Georgia that date back to 36,000 BP.[4][5]
Scientists are still debating when people started wearing clothes. Ralf Kittler, Manfred Kayser and Mark Stoneking, anthropologists at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, have conducted a genetic analysis of human body lice that suggests clothing originated quite recently, around 107,000 years ago. Body lice is an indicator of clothes-wearing, since most humans have sparse body hair, and lice thus require human clothing to survive. Their research suggests the invention of clothing may have coincided with the northward migration of modern Homo sapiens away from the warm climate of Africa, thought to have begun between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago. However, a second group of researchers using similar genetic methods estimate that clothing originated around 540,000 years ago (Reed et al. 2004. PLoS Biology 2(11): e340). For now, the date of the origin of clothing remains unresolved.[citation needed]That suggests if there was an Adam and Eve, (Which the evidence contradicts. The genetic record supports the conclusion that the last common male ancestor of modern humans lived at a different time by thousands of years from the last common female ancestor of modern humans.), they would have used clothing long before sewing was invented.



All of a sudden science is born.????????

If it’s getting colder then fire may or may not of been first.
About 20,000, 10,000 years later another catastrophe happens with a objects that strikes the earth, some of the evidence is shrapnel from that impactor in the mammals fossils some of it is Magnetic black sand.

These were multiple strikes: Here’s one
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/27448/

And then we have an example of these.

Both from here :

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050309_meteor_crater.html

That’s two, Meteorites have been striking the planet since it formed. What is your point?



That’s three: http://us.makemytrip.com/destination/lonar/lonar.htm

Lost civilizations?
A wet Egypt?

More information: 10 here http://paranormal.about.com/cs/lostworlds/a/aa020204.htm


http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco



http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/1131422-sahara-desert???????


Sub humans and possibly hybrids are now gone at about the 40,000 year mark and Neanderthals have taken a major hit and by the time of the next impact probably a comet this time which happened about 12,900 years ago Neanderthals are gone and only humans remain.
The flood event takes place at this time.
Tweak the timelines a little and it seems to work out.
To say that pre-diluvia people were primitive is false they have about 40,000 years to build all these monuments that we are puzzled over.


These two events are re-creations of an older one.Sorry, dude. You have nothing here but fantasy based on limited knowledge of the actual facts, not just in the fossil record, but also in the records provided by evidence from all the other sciences which support the conclusion the Bible's account of Creation is total fiction.

[Sun Countess]

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.
No, I don't notice that.

I will ask if you think that your god is working on everybody by making them nicer this time of year, or if you think he's just working on Christians?

As for the rest of your post, it seems to be a lot of unrelated gibberish that doesn't follow any type of logic. I'm flabbergasted that it apparently makes sense to you.

[Pure Argent]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.

No, he doesn't. That just means that people think that Easter and Christmas are times of peace, not that magic peaceful fairy dust falls down around those days.

As for the rest of it, I might respond later, but from your track record here, edge, I really don't see the point. You are both unwilling and unable to learn anything about science. If someone else voices their desire to see a full rebuttal, I'll do it, but there's no point if it's just you. Suffice to say that your post is nonsense.

[phantomb]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.

Hmm, why might a holiday season that involves music and song, feasting, exchanging gifts, parties with friends and family, and maybe even some vacation time coincide with people becoming light-hearted, calm, and kind?

Only the magic powers of JESUS can account for this! Even though his being born on the 25th was only canonized because all the other gods were doing it!

[Outback Jack]

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.

Actually, no, I have not noticed that. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/28/black.friday.violence/index.html)

[Mongrel]

[QUOTE=edge;5783849][Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder./QUOTE]

1) You've never worked retail have you...

2) Kinder - Ibbo Shaky (http://www.tvscoop.tv/2007/11/commercial_brea_8.html)

[thaiboxerken]

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.

No, I haven't. Please provide evidence of this.

[Achán hiNidráne]

What the fossil record tells me...

And you are?

[Mashuna]

And you are?

Someone poorly equipped to attempt to interperate the fossil record.

[Lord Emsworth]

Isn't it much more plausible to think that the Great Sphinx of Gizah was built by the Isrealites along with the pyramids, instead of this it-is-like-10.500-years-old rubbish?


ETA: And did you know, that they found fossil shells on top of the Pyramid of Cheops?

[Safe-Keeper]

Well, firstly I strongly dislike the contrast "good" vs. "heretic". It's like me saying "civilized or dark-skinned". Secondly, your posting style makes your threads pretty hard to get into. Try to write more in your own words instead of posting a series of quotes with a line of text between them.

ETA: So much for reading comprehension skills.

[Fiona]

Edge, when you go camping do you find a needle is of the very first importance and the first thing you pack? Personally I like something to carry water in: but priorities may differ.

[Mojo]

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?


:notm

[Safe-Keeper]

I do notice that around Yule, everyone is more stressed, frustrated, and in general angry, and certainly don't have time to think about Jesus or Christianity.

[Dancing David]

Wow, good thing this is in R&P.

Um, that is an amazingly bad OP, was there a point?

Sorry that paper is an 'F' for sure.

As SG says the first tools date to about 1.5 mya, homo sapiens sapiens date to around 150,000 years ago.

There is no evidence of any major contructions of the fantasy you are writing about Edge.

[MG1962]

I do notice that around Yule, everyone is more stressed, frustrated, and in general angry, and certainly don't have time to think about Jesus or Christianity.

Thats cause Jesus was a baby. And you know how demanding they are

[Lukraak_Sisser]

The same question for Edge that I asked in the deluge thread.

Why do you have this appearant need to prove that genesis is literally correct?
The majority of christians and as far as I know other current religions have no problem with interpreting their creation stories as fables and allegories to give insight in the mind of god and why the sacrifice of christ was necessary.
Evolution to them is just the way god decided to go about it and we're still just as sinful as to need christ to get back to god. In fact, I'd feel more special knowing god made the whole universe and then was willing to wait 13 billion years or more just so he could take a personal interest in my life.
Why is it so crucial to you that you feel the need to twist and turn scientific data, omitting and altering as needed just to make it fit that tiny bit of the bible?
After all, as a christian the new testament is the more important one anyway, and Jesus used fables to teach, why is it impossible that genesis falls in the same category?

Now wether a god with the mindset as given in the bible is someone worth worshipping is a totally different story, but not relevant to this discussion.

[edge]

I do notice that around Yule, everyone is more stressed, frustrated, and in general angry, and certainly don't have time to think about Jesus or Christianity.

Yes this happens as the holidays approach mostly by those that are into the pagan part of the holidays, chasing the materialistic aspects but still all are heading to those days when it's all done and actual celebration is in progress.
It seems to bring everybody together to share food, company of friends and relatives.

[edge]

Whatever.

Easter and xmas existed before christians....they mark the Vernal Equinox and Winter Solstice

But I guess when pagans celebrated them, they were mean to each other.

Also, if Jesus lived, he was born when young lambs were around...so not in the Winter anyways.

The days when we do celebrate those holidays do not really matter because how do we even know; he was around even before born on Earth?
The main thing is to observe and acknowledge those as landmark events.

[Loss Leader]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.


I assume it would tell you more if you actually understood it.

[Hans]

Having lived many years in muslim countries I found those dates don't bring any particular joy or happiness, but that Eid and other muslim holidays do. The same applies to Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto peoples their own holidays make them happy......

And did you know, that they found fossil shells on top of the Pyramid of Cheops?

How odd since it was built with limestone, funny thing limestone being that it's made up of ........LOL

[edge]

The first invention could have been a sharp pointed stick made by the hunter in the family, but as the hunter does that the woman left at camp probably invented the needle and other tools to deal with preparing the food and skins, since God first clothed them they next had to feed themselves and that is if they at that time even changed their diet, change of diet from fruits and vegetables to meat may have occurred at this time or later.
Even hunting had to be learned they probably started with the simpler forms like slow moving creatures sush as shell fish, eggs ect...

[edge]

Edge, when you go camping do you find a needle is of the very first importance and the first thing you pack? Personally I like something to carry water in: but priorities may differ.

It is something I pack when I go camping, Shelter is of importance, food is on the list too.
wepons and other tools, knife, eating utensils.
Extra clothing is high on that list too, along with soaps.

[Aepervius]

People don't become "calmer" or "happier" or whatever at christmas. People *with a family* get to be happier because it is a time where they revel and get gift and are generally happy with their family. People *without a family* are definitively more "down" in my experience, whetehr christian or not, at christmas time.

The rest of the non sense I won't even comment on. Heck even what we call genetic adam and geentic eve don't mean they were "alone" (beside not living at the same time) it only means that all other contemporan female and male did not leave a genetic lineage IIRC.

[Pup]

I notice that people seem happier in the US around Memorial Day weekend, Labor Day weekend, right after their team wins a game in the finals, and for children, about the time school lets out.

Definitely proof that there is a god.

[edge]

Wow, good thing this is in R&P.

Um, that is an amazingly bad OP, was there a point?

Sorry that paper is an 'F' for sure.

As SG says the first tools date to about 1.5 mya, homo sapiens sapiens date to around 150,000 years ago.

There is no evidence of any major contructions of the fantasy you are writing about Edge.

From my view point the fantasy is that we have not been close to God and he didn't create us from whatever means he had in mind.

One of the major things is that we can't explain many things and places that make no sense unless you look at them from both perspectives of proof, religion and science.

One of the things that are brought up is where are all the human fossils from the flood event?
Well I believe this is what is left and the amazing thing is Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are them and we lived sisde by side with them.
We know that only a small portion of bones and other aspects are rare to find as fossils need certain things to happen in a precise manner to fossilize and stay in a preserved state.
But also to say they are all primitive heardsmaen isn’t true because of the monuments cities like Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco, are showing high technical knowledge we can’t even at this time reproduce as they did.
This was stated by modern engineers.

[edge]

Thats cause Jesus was a baby. And you know how demanding they are

LOL.... He was that good baby we all wanted but never got, opps some ones crying got to go!

[edge]

I notice that people seem happier in the US around Memorial Day weekend, Labor Day weekend, right after their team wins a game in the finals, and for children, about the time school lets out.

Definitely proof that there is a god.
Agreed!
Time off from the hectic world is pleasurable, Lots of sex at this time too, Pleasurable, reminds me of Bruce Almighty!

[Sun Countess]

It seems to bring everybody together to share food, company of friends and relatives. Which is more stressful for many people....and which also has nothing to do with the birth of a baby over 2000 years ago.

Weddings and birthday parties also bring people together to share food, company of friends and relatives, and can also be stressful events for many people.

Suicides typically go up near the holidays.

[edge]

Having lived many years in muslim countries I found those dates don't bring any particular joy or happiness, but that Eid and other muslim holidays do. The same applies to Hindu, Buddhist and Shinto peoples their own holidays make them happy......



How odd since it was built with limestone, funny thing limestone being that it's made up of ........LOL

Yes it's just not Christians that revel in the Father.
Yes man pushed up limestone to make the pyramids, but God pushes up mountains.
Sometimes nature does too.

[edge]

Which is more stressful for many people....and which also has nothing to do with the birth of a baby over 2000 years ago.

Weddings and birthday parties also bring people together to share food, company of friends and relatives, and can also be stressful events for many people.

Suicides typically go up near the holidays.

This is all true, but what is recorded is they gathered at the manger to worship and they knew about this before it happened.

Same thing today people that believe gather together to fellow ship on the very most important aspect, to worship the real meaning and not lose sight of the real event being celebrated.
This most definitely holds true for Christians.

[edge]

Actually, no, I have not noticed that. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/28/black.friday.violence/index.html)

A fight over materialism, sad thing that.
Like I said after a holiday it goes back the way it was.
Did you notice this?
Some one needs to change this so it doesn't happen.
This is based on greed not by the people that are looking for a break but by corporations and businesses.
To add to this:
People should realize that the kindness should continue not the pushing and shoving to get to material items because the price has dropped.

[Sun Countess]

Same thing today people that believe gather together to fellow ship on the very most important aspect, to worship the real meaning and not lose sight of the real event being celebrated.
I don't know anybody who does this.

So you're basically saying that Jesus is working magic during the holidays by keeping Christians off the streets so the rest of us can go about our business as usual?

[Fiona]

I seem to think we have seen this before. The op asserts that people are happier when they are on holiday: some reply that this is not true: the op tacitly concedes that his premise is false, but explains that all those who are not happier are not doing it right. OP then imagines his premise is intact and carries on as if nothing had happened.

Hmmm

[DevilsAdvocate]

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.
I feel light hearted around Christmas because I can put a tree in my living room and people don’t think I’m crazy. I like trees. And I get to put up lights and candles. And see all my friends and family. And give gifts. I don’t know how the birth of Jesus fit in. I don’t care. I just like trees and lights and family and friends and gifts.

I don’t even know when Easter is. I don’t care. But it is about the time baseball season starts. God set that up just right.

I like late June as well, when the fish start biting. I’m not sure what Jesus did then, but it must have been something cool. Maybe that was when he walked on water. Or no…it must be the loaves and fishes trick.

I get most light hearted and calm, and kind in September. I love the fall. God must have given birth or killed something special in September.

The bible tells us/informs us that the first invention was probably a needle, they apparently had a model to go by.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

The first thing Adam and Eve do is make cloths.Read your Bible. God made the garments. So God had the needle—not man. It would be hard to call that an invention considering that God had just invented/made the whole universe and stuff. Who knows where God got the skins for the coats. He must have killed off some of those animals he created. But that’s what he did. God clothed Adam and Eve in head-to-toe leather. It wasn’t cold. That was when thing first started heating up. The kinky leather-thread party started and Adam knew (wink wink) Eve. They banged it out terrific. He bruised her head, and she bruised his heel.

Of course the first tool constructed by humans was probably a cutting, smashing, or prying device. It probably depends on how you define “tool”. My bet would be on the pointy stick.

Bauval and Graham Hancock have calculated that the Great Pyramid likewise dates back to about 10,500 B.C. - predating the Egyptian civilizationOh, good gravy. Please watch who you are quoting.


Sub humans and possibly hybrids are now gone at about the 40,000 year mark and Neanderthals have taken a major hit and by the time of the next impact probably a comet this time which happened about 12,900 years ago Neanderthals are gone and only humans remain.
The flood event takes place at this time.
Tweak the timelines a little and it seems to work out.
To say that pre-diluvia people were primitive is false they have about 40,000 years to build all these monuments that we are puzzled over. They didn’t need 40,000 years to build the pyramid or the sphinx. Modern people at 13,000 years ago might be about right (perhaps a bit older). There was no global flood. A Mesopotamian flood that originated flood stories might have been about (I think) 5000 BC. The “pre-diluvia” people---the people at least up to about 7000 BC--were primitive. That is, they were stone age with little to no writing. But other than lack of knowledge, they were not really different from you and me.

[Sun Countess]

The kinky leather-thread party started and Adam knew (wink wink) Eve. They banged it out terrific. He bruised her head, and she bruised his heel.
Did anyone bruise a rib?

[TraneWreck]

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.


Kindness? STUNNING irony.

Let's see how Christians chose to spend their Good Friday:

"A senior Vatican priest speaking at a Good Friday service compared the uproar over sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church — which have included reports about Pope Benedict XVI’s oversight role in two cases — to the persecution of the Jews, sharply raising the volume in the Vatican’s counterattack."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/world/europe/03church.html

Yes, wanting someone arrested for covering up the systematic molestation of 200 deaf kids in Wisconsin is the same as kristallnacht.

The Rock of Ages...

[Safe-Keeper]

People don't become "calmer" or "happier" or whatever at christmas. People *with a family* get to be happier because it is a time where they revel and get gift and are generally happy with their family. People *without a family* are definitively more "down" in my experience, whetehr christian or not, at christmas time.
Lots of depressed people are especially depressed around the time of Yule/Christmas/whathaveya. Seeing everyone around you happy and trying to celebrate when everything around you sucks will do that to a person.

[phantomb]

But also to say they are all primitive heardsmaen isn’t true because of the monuments cities like Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco, are showing high technical knowledge we can’t even at this time reproduce as they did.
This was stated by modern engineers.

Somehow I think that has more to do with the fact that engineers no longer spend time studying and practicing those kinds of techniques. Modern engineers do not spend time thinking about how to move large amounts of stone by human labor, or how to cut stone blocks to a high degree of precision without modern tools, or any number of other problems that Tiwanaku architects spent years and years learning about.

Here's another example. Modern experts in lithic tool construction have stated that their ability to create such tools doesn't even approach the ability of the expert craftsmen who lived when these tool traditions were at their peak. Does that mean that those older craftsmen and their contemporaries had some sort of advanced technical knowledge that we can't even reproduce? No. It's just that those older craftsmen were dedicated to the craft and spent upwards of 10 years mastering it while the average modern craftsman will go through a few courses on lithic tools and then practice the craft in their spare time.

[edge]

I assume it would tell you more if you actually understood it.

The more comes from God.
Everything that the sciences say about the layers before men is probably correct but to blend that in mans time I see a flaw in the thinking of the mainstream, (the more and evidence for God and the word).

[edge]

I don't know anybody who does this.

So you're basically saying that Jesus is working magic during the holidays by keeping Christians off the streets so the rest of us can go about our business as usual?

Religious people do.

No, LMAO I'm out there to I am not exempt, just cautious.
I look for sales too but Black Friday is not my thing, I go on Saturday or Sunday, or not at all.
Why rush?

[edge]

I seem to think we have seen this before. The op asserts that people are happier when they are on holiday: some reply that this is not true: the op tacitly concedes that his premise is false, but explains that all those who are not happier are not doing it right. OP then imagines his premise is intact and carries on as if nothing had happened.

Hmmm

Are they?
Come on would you stand in line with hundreds of people behind you in front of those little entryways?
Gives me Closterphobia thinking about it.

Ok what does the bible say about materialism?
I think you know?

[Fiona]

Are they?
Come on would you stand in line with hundreds of people behind you in front of those little entryways?
Gives me Closterphobia thinking about it.

Ok what does the bible say about materialism?
I think you know?

There will be pie in the sky when you die?

[gentlehorse]

There will be pie in the sky when you die?Really? It says that?

Sign me up!

[edge]

Kindness? STUNNING irony.

Let's see how Christians chose to spend their Good Friday:

"A senior Vatican priest speaking at a Good Friday service compared the uproar over sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church — which have included reports about Pope Benedict XVI’s oversight role in two cases — to the persecution of the Jews, sharply raising the volume in the Vatican’s counterattack."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/world/europe/03church.html

Yes, wanting someone arrested for covering up the systematic molestation of 200 deaf kids in Wisconsin is the same as kristallnacht.

The Rock of Ages...

I am not Catholic and would never be, they are observing of a False doctrine now in today’s age and the past.
They started out with good but now?
I have gone way beyond what they know and believe.

The only truth we need is to believe in Christ...And the immediate history around his teaching...

[edge]

There will be pie in the sky when you die?

Hopefully Cherry, Umm.
With Cream, wiped cream, Homer moment, (tongue hangs out).

[edge]

Kindness? STUNNING irony.

Let's see how Christians chose to spend their Good Friday:

"A senior Vatican priest speaking at a Good Friday service compared the uproar over sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church — which have included reports about Pope Benedict XVI’s oversight role in two cases — to the persecution of the Jews, sharply raising the volume in the Vatican’s counterattack."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/world/europe/03church.html

Yes, wanting someone arrested for covering up the systematic molestation of 200 deaf kids in Wisconsin is the same as kristallnacht.

The Rock of Ages...

Quote from that site:
Good Friday has traditionally been a fraught day in Catholic-Jewish relations. Until the liberalizing Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, Catholic liturgy included a prayer for the conversion of the Jews, and Catholic teaching held Jews responsible for the Crucifixion.

See right there that was wrong... we are all responsible.

[sadhatter]

Yes this happens as the holidays approach mostly by those that are into the pagan part of the holidays, chasing the materialistic aspects but still all are heading to those days when it's all done and actual celebration is in progress.
It seems to bring everybody together to share food, company of friends and relatives.

So does pot, whats your point?

I hate how a christian can say something so silly as , around christmas people are nicer because of magic. And then when the real world tells them no they just say " okay, well in that situation, no but in all others....".

It is called intellectual dishonesty.

[TraneWreck]

Quote from that site:
Good Friday has traditionally been a fraught day in Catholic-Jewish relations. Until the liberalizing Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, Catholic liturgy included a prayer for the conversion of the Jews, and Catholic teaching held Jews responsible for the Crucifixion.

See right there that was wrong... we are all responsible.

Not me. I told Jesus to just stay out of Jerusalem for a while, but he was so pigheaded...

On a more serious note, try to follow the argument Edge just gave us. The reason Jesus had to die was to make up or cure or somehow fix our sin. That's why Christians say we're "responsible" for his death.

But why do people sin? Because Eve took the apple. Everyone after was born into sin. You can help but sin. We are born evil and commanded to be good. How can we be responsible for something we're born with? Are Downe's Syndrome children responsible for their situation? Fetal Alcohol babies?

But that's what happens when you take things Christians put on bumper-stickers seriously.


Edit: I also LOVE the idea that I'm responsible for Jesus' death because God is a really crappy problem solver:

God: "Hmm, these people are really acting up. How to deal with it? I know, I'll cause them to suffocate to death in a massive deluge."
Later, God: "Hmm, they're still acting up. How to deal with it? I know, I'll send myself down there as my son and then let them torture me to death. Then hundreds of generations of people will have to feel guilty about it. Damn, I'm good."

If God couldn't come up with a better way to deal with sin, that's his fault, not mine.

[phantomb]

Are they?

Well, that's the issue, isn't it?

edge: People are happier around the time of Christian holidays.
Others: That's not true of everybody.
edge: It's true of everybody who does it right.
Others: Well, what group of people are the ones who do it right?
edge: Trust me, I know who's doing it right and who's not.

Not very convincing.

[edge]

Really? It says that?

Sign me up!

The path is narrow no Pushing when the doors open.:)

Wait we have to die first?
I'm going to wall mart first, sale on pies there.

[edge]

So does pot, whats your point?

I hate how a christian can say something so silly as , around christmas people are nicer because of magic. And then when the real world tells them no they just say " okay, well in that situation, no but in all others....".

It is called intellectual dishonesty.

First you have to be that way and then others respond in a like manner.
Now pass that thing, bogart.

[edge]

Not me. I told Jesus to just stay out of Jerusalem for a while, but he was so pigheaded...

On a more serious note, try to follow the argument Edge just gave us.

The reason Jesus had to die was to make up or cure or somehow fix our sin. That's why Christians say we're "responsible" for his death.

But why do people sin? Because Eve took the apple. Everyone after was born into sin. You can help but sin. We are born evil and commanded to be good.

How can we be responsible for something we're born with? Are Downe's Syndrome children responsible for their situation? Fetal Alcohol babies?

But that's what happens when you take things Christians put on bumper-stickers seriously.

Edit: I also LOVE the idea that I'm responsible for Jesus' death because God is a really crappy problem solver:

God: "Hmm, these people are really acting up. How to deal with it? I know, I'll cause them to suffocate to death in a massive deluge."

Later, God: "Hmm, they're still acting up. How to deal with it? I know, I'll send myself down there as my son and then let them torture me to death. Then hundreds of generations of people will have to feel guilty about it. Damn, I'm good."

If God couldn't come up with a better way to deal with sin, that's his fault, not mine.

How can we be responsible for something we're born with?

This is the reason why Jesus came, God must have realized this.

I believe that there was some learning on his part too, to see what we have to deal with.
How death is to us, what we feel.
How unfair life can be.
How could we be responsible for his death when he conquered it?
For Us.

Up until his death we were because an action occurred.
Our responsibility after the new covenant for his death is gone.
Now our responsibility is for our salvation.

He then changed it for us, to be same as he is with out death eternal.
So that all can be saved.
If you don't believe now you will later.

I just talked to a clerk and she agrees with you but also location and belief is a factor with each side bleeding over into the others actions, by this I mean a Christian could be as mean as an atheist.
For that person I can say with certainty that they are not practicing what they preach.
For the rest there is no practicing at all but also there are atheists who are very kind too.
So there's the line for both not to cross.

The gosple of Thomas,

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

[TraneWreck]

How can we be responsible for something we're born with?

[...]

No answer


Italics mine.

[paiute]

The bible tells us

[Adam Savage voice]Well, there's your problem, right there.[/Adam Savage voice]

[Mongrel]

The first invention could have been a sharp pointed stick made by the hunter in the family, but as the hunter does that the woman left at camp probably invented the needle and other tools to deal with preparing the food and skins, .

I'll give you the pointy stick as 'first invention', the next one though was probably the flint knife (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aes/f/flint_knife_with_an_ivory_hand.aspx) to chop up your chunks of meat and then the flint scraper (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_prb/f/flint_scraper.aspx) once proto-humans started learning how to cure hides. The first clothes were probably draped skins\big leaves and then moved on to binding separate parts with punched holes and sinew (like moccasins), no needle needed.

Into the saxon age needles were still rare enough that they used a split hogs hair bristle as a needle. Just wax the thread and entangle it at the split end, it's stiff enough to go through a pre-punched hole.

[TimCallahan]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation. . . .


The bible tells us/informs us that the first invention was probably a needle, they apparently had a model to go by.
( 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:),
These are in the fossil records buried with Cro-Magnon which appeared around 50,000 years ago and we can definitely say they are our ancestors. . . .


Sub humans and possibly hybrids are now gone at about the 40,000 year mark and Neanderthals have taken a major hit and by the time of the next impact probably a comet this time which happened about 12,900 years ago Neanderthals are gone and only humans remain.
The flood event takes place at this time. . . .


First: Needles were ivented by Cro-Magnons. However, they weren't the first humans or even the first Homo sapiens. Hand axes far pre-date needles.

Second: What evidence, if any, do you have that Neanderthals were taken out as a result of either a comet or an asteroid? Also your timeline is way off. Neanderthals had vanished long before 12,900 years ago.

Oh! But I forgot! This is all just science - so you can safely ignore it.

[paximperium]

Wow. Edge is still spouting this nonsense despite not having a clue about what he is talking about? There is a whole lot of claims and not one shred of actual evidence. He must assume that people will just take his claims at face value.

[lionking]

First: Needles were ivented by Cro-Magnons. However, they weren't the first humans or even the first Homo sapiens. Hand axes far pre-date needles.

Second: What evidence, if any, do you have that Neanderthals were taken out as a result of either a comet or an asteroid? Also your timeline is way off. Neanderthals had vanished long before 12,900 years ago.

Oh! But I forgot! This is all just science - so you can safely ignore it.
Beat me to it. But edge would say that because hand axes weren't mentioned in the bible, they couldn't exist.

[edge]

[Adam Savage voice]Well, there's your problem, right there.[/Adam Savage voice]

I thought a skeptics version would suit you better, From Thomas.
I need more coffee!
Got to love your avatar!

[DC]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

funny, to me it tells there was no creation but evolution.

[edge]

First: Needles were ivented by Cro-Magnons. However, they weren't the first humans or even the first Homo sapiens. Hand axes far pre-date needles.

Second: What evidence, if any, do you have that Neanderthals were taken out as a result of either a comet or an asteroid? Also your timeline is way off. Neanderthals had vanished long before 12,900 years ago.

Oh! But I forgot! This is all just science - so you can safely ignore it.

I'm not ignoring anything-just trying to put it all together.
It's hard to pin down the exact dates for these extinctions as many scientists can't quit agree on exact dates for these, there are many variations on those dates by at least 1000 years or so, so when I say give or take it's not only the bible but sciences dates that you have to average.

[edge]

Wow. Edge is still spouting this nonsense despite not having a clue about what he is talking about? There is a whole lot of claims and not one shred of actual evidence. He must assume that people will just take his claims at face value.

Why not it's theory it seems to work just fine.
Isn't that what you believe in theory?

[edge]

funny, to me it tells there was no creation but evolution.

Well ya sure the two go hand in hand, but my consern is where did there come a sudden chamge a drastic change that seems to be when modern man suddenly appears as modern man, and as I see it about 50,000 years-ago, there's the marker.

There's lots to say about adaption too, we evloved to our surrondings, or we die.

[edge]

Beat me to it. But edge would say that because hand axes weren't mentioned in the bible, they couldn't exist.

No that's not true, what I mentioned, the needle because what is stated in the beginning of the Bible/Genisis, clothing made by God for them, so they now have a model to work with.

Up untill that point they didn't eat meat so how long till they did, or needed hunting tools?
I'm sure the same things they ate were still there, but as the climate cooled they would then encounter seasonal variartions that forced them to get meat.
A year, ten years, no one knows.

[TimCallahan]

Well ya sure the two go hand in hand, but my consern is where did there come a sudden chamge a drastic change that seems to be when modern man suddenly appears as modern man, and as I see it about 50,000 years-ago, there's the marker.

There's lots to say about adaption too, we evloved to our surrondings, or we die.

Again, modern humans did not "suddenly appear" 50,000 years ago. Homo heidelbergensis - which includes the Bodo skull from Ethiopia, ca. 600,000 years ago; the Arago skull from Spain, ca. 200,000 - 400,000 y.a. and the Petralona skull from Greece, ca. 200, 000 years ago - is clearly transitional between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, which appeared in Africa about 195,000 years ago. Homo heidelbergensis seems to have given rise to the Neanderthals as well. Where do you get the idea that modern humans appeared suddenly only 50,000 years ago?

[paximperium]

I'm not ignoring anything-just trying to put it all together.
It's hard to pin down the exact dates for these extinctions as many scientists can't quit agree on exact dates for these, there are many variations on those dates by at least 1000 years or so, so when I say give or take it's not only the bible but sciences dates that you have to average.
Any citation of this so called dates?

[paximperium]

Why not it's theory it seems to work just fine.
Besides having near incomprehensible grammar, the answer it NO. Your "theory" is beyond useless and pretty much a failure.
Isn't that what you believe in theory?So you still have no idea what a theory is at all? All these years here spouting pseudo-science nonsense and you still have no idea.

A hypothesis is a falsifiable claim. It may of may not have been tested yet.
A theory is well supported line of evidence leading to a cohesive and consistent system of science.

Your claims are nonsense. It is not supported by evidence. It is only supported by your ignorance and misapplication about things you believe you have understanding of. It is a failure.

[paximperium]

No that's not true, what I mentioned, the needle because what is stated in the beginning of the Bible/Genisis, clothing made by God for them, so they now have a model to work with. That's assuming your story was even made up yet.

Up untill that point they didn't eat meat so how long till they did, or needed hunting tools?

I'm sure the same things they ate were still there, but as the climate cooled they would then encounter seasonal variartions that forced them to get meat.
A year, ten years, no one knows.
Really? Citation of this claim?

[I Ratant]

...
Up untill that point they didn't eat meat so how long till they did, or needed hunting tools?
I'm sure the same things they ate were still there, but as the climate cooled they would then encounter seasonal variartions that forced them to get meat.
A year, ten years, no one knows.
.
Cold climate changing food requirements... Yup.
In mammals, one might find the Snow Fox, a mammal, and a carnivore living in the Great White North.
Right next to the fox, but trembling a bit, might be seen the Snowshoe Rabbit, a mammal, yet a herbivore.
Same environment, different methods to eat.
Panda, a mammal, and an herbivore. And a very poor herbivore, being a descendant of carnivores, and lacking the digestion system evolved herbivores have.

[paximperium]

.
Cold climate changing food requirements... Yup.
In mammals, one might find the Snow Fox, a mammal, and a carnivore living in the Great White North.
Right next to the fox, but trembling a bit, might be seen the Snowshoe Rabbit, a mammal, yet a herbivore.
Same environment, different methods to eat.
Panda, a mammal, and an herbivore. And a very poor herbivore, being a descendant of carnivores, and lacking the digestion system evolved herbivores have.
Homo Ergaster has evidence of being a meat eater although more likely a scavenger, Strangely they lived almost 1 and half million years ago.
http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_ergaster.htm

[Dancing David]

From my view point the fantasy is that we have not been close to God and he didn't create us from whatever means he had in mind.

One of the major things is that we can't explain many things and places that make no sense unless you look at them from both perspectives of proof, religion and science.

One of the things that are brought up is where are all the human fossils from the flood event?
Well I believe this is what is left and the amazing thing is Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon are them and we lived sisde by side with them.
We know that only a small portion of bones and other aspects are rare to find as fossils need certain things to happen in a precise manner to fossilize and stay in a preserved state.
But also to say they are all primitive heardsmaen isn’t true because of the monuments cities like Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco, are showing high technical knowledge we can’t even at this time reproduce as they did.
This was stated by modern engineers.

You still get an "F", you should really try harder.

So some person says something silly and WOW, that is proof of something sillier.

You really need to try reading something other than that ancient mysteries garbage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

[Dancing David]

No that's not true, what I mentioned, the needle because what is stated in the beginning of the Bible/Genisis, clothing made by God for them, so they now have a model to work with.

Up untill that point they didn't eat meat so how long till they did, or needed hunting tools?
I'm sure the same things they ate were still there, but as the climate cooled they would then encounter seasonal variartions that forced them to get meat.
A year, ten years, no one knows.

Dude, this is called an allegory.

In Eden ADM and HVA are 'spirits' and when god clothes them is the 'flesh of animals' he makes them incarnate.

[edge]

Dude, this is called an allegory.

In Eden ADM and HVA are 'spirits' and when god clothes them is the 'flesh of animals' he makes them incarnate.

I guess you could see it as that.
But spirits/souls don't need food.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food;

Clothing comes later. Spirits don't need clothing either.

Flesh isn't stated rather, skins: 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Man was already in the flesh and a coat doesn't cover the whole body and since animals were all ready created we can safely assume they were from them.
This is what the fossil record supports also.
Wouldn’t it say to support your statement, that god covered their spirits/souls in skin.
From your site:
The processes and technologies involved in the creation of these temples are still not fully understood by modern scholars.

So far starting about 50,000 years ago there were still four humanoids living.

We know that Neanderthals are around with humans and all of them are gone right before 12,000 years ago.


Then there's this carving that I am fascinated with.
It’s all in the eyes. The one on the left bottom looks human and slightly scared, the other two are?

I talked to the same clerk yesterday and she said that so far everything seemed to be more pleasant she said the day before there were about 80% present of the people were annoying and 20% nice, those numbers were reversed on Easter morning to 80% nice and 20% as wholes.

[TimCallahan]

Again, modern humans did not "suddenly appear" 50,000 years ago. Homo heidelbergensis - which includes the Bodo skull from Ethiopia, ca. 600,000 years ago; the Arago skull from Spain, ca. 200,000 - 400,000 y.a. and the Petralona skull from Greece, ca. 200, 000 years ago - is clearly transitional between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens, which appeared in Africa about 195,000 years ago. Homo heidelbergensis seems to have given rise to the Neanderthals as well. Where do you get the idea that modern humans appeared suddenly only 50,000 years ago?

I guess edge isn't going to respond to this evidence. However, I might add that the Vertesszollos (Hungary), Swanscombe (England) and Steinheim (Germany) skulls are also representative of Homo heidelbergensis and all demonstrate transitional forms between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens or Homo neanderthalensis.

So how about it, edge. Are you going to respond to this and my previous post, or are you just another damned troll?

[edge]

I guess edge isn't going to respond to this evidence. However, I might add that the Vertesszollos (Hungary), Swanscombe (England) and Steinheim (Germany) skulls are also representative of Homo heidelbergensis and all demonstrate transitional forms between Homo erectus and Homo sapiens or Homo neanderthalensis.

So how about it, edge. Are you going to respond to this and my previous post, or are you just another damned troll?

Better than a leprechaun.
I don’t live in here.


The oldest fossils of modern human beings, Homo sapiens sapiens, are 125,000-100,000 years old, appearing at the time of the first of the great ice ages.

Talkin Cro-Magnon, the people who were living alongside Neanderthals at the end of the last ice age (ca. 35,000-10,000 years ago).


I’m talking about the line between them and us also, Cro-Magnonand moder man.

The major changes for us that tie us to what is written in the bible.
Neanderthals died out because all they ate was meat, it affected their brain size, where intuitiveness is, and they couldn’t adapt and change.
They start to die out after the first ice age extinction.
By the second the Hobbits are gone and Neanderthals and any other sub Humans.

We adapt and excel we adapted and at this point first contact by God happens between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
I have the feeling the reason is, because of our brains ability’s and size.

[dio]

We adapt and excel we adapted and at this point first contact by God happens between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
I have the feeling the reason is, because of our brains ability’s and size.

I actually agree with this. First god contact when our brains were complex enough to start imagining things.:)

[dafydd]

Wow. Edge is still spouting this nonsense despite not having a clue about what he is talking about? There is a whole lot of claims and not one shred of actual evidence. He must assume that people will just take his claims at face value.

I suppose he thinks that if he spouts his nonsense on enough internet forums,somewhere an eejit or two will believe.

[paximperium]

<Snipped ignorant bable>
We adapt and excel we adapted and at this point first contact by God happens between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
I have the feeling the reason is, because of our brains ability’s and size.I agree with this. This is time when human imagination got complex enough to make up some "god"...although it was rather simple at rather dumb gods at the time.

[edge]

I agree with this. This is time when human imagination got complex enough to make up some "god"...although it was rather simple at rather dumb gods at the time.

Or that's when god decided we were smart enough to understand the concept.
We are now capable to spread the concept and understand it.
Even though not all of God is understood.

[paximperium]

Or that's when god decided we were smart enough to understand the concept. Really? You will of course have some sort of evidence to support this claim? You know even something silly like the Babel?

We are now capable to spread the concept and understand it. No. Your god concept is pretty new. That's why it's so contradictory. Iron age goat herders can't make up a god that made sense.

Even though not all of God is understood.I understand it pretty well.

[edge]

If it were all imagination it would seem we would know that, but that is not the case and why record over and over some ones delusion?
Plus come up with specifics.
Not by one or two but thousands of people and in some cases multiple witnesses.

[Fiona]

I don't get it: if we are then smart enough to understand the concept why on earth would we have to spread it? Why not just build in belief and avoid the "send three and fourpence" effect?

[Belz...]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

And are you qualified to interpret it ?

No.

You lose.

[paximperium]

If it were all imagination it would seem we would know that, No. Because people like you would say it was real no matter what.

but that is not the case and why record over and over some ones delusion? Because some idiots have to believe some story.

Not by one or two but thousands of people and in some cases multiple witnesses.Really?
Name one person who met this Jebus character.

[edge]

From what I have read they aren't such idiots.



36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind 6of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also 7celestial bodies and 8terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 sSo also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 tIt is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



I don't get it: if we are then smart enough to understand the concept why on earth would we have to spread it? Why not just build in belief and avoid the "send three and fourpence" effect?

Seems like he did even before modern Christianity came about, then contact happened, the donation thing is for fellowship in one locality for food shelter to do so, up keep of the gathering place to fellowship.

All the primitive forms of humans at least the very recent seem to have some concept of the after life, before Christianity, inborn.

[Fiona]

Well he didn't build it in to me. Now what ?

[paximperium]

From what I have read they aren't such idiots.
<Snipped irrelevant nonsense> Reading a book that tells you that you are not idiotic to believe in the idiotic claims in that book. So what?

Seems like he did even before modern Christianity came about, then contact happened, the donation thing is for fellowship in one locality for food shelter to do so, up keep of the gathering place to fellowship. Are you making things up as you go along or did you write this story somewhere?

All the primitive forms of humans at least the very recent seem to have some concept of the after life, before Christianity, inborn.
So? Are you going to claim all the afterlife concepts now?

[Dancing David]

The more comes from God.
Everything that the sciences say about the layers before men is probably correct but to blend that in mans time I see a flaw in the thinking of the mainstream, (the more and evidence for God and the word).

Um, the layers and man's time? Could you explain that?

[Dancing David]

I'm not ignoring anything-just trying to put it all together.
It's hard to pin down the exact dates for these extinctions as many scientists can't quit agree on exact dates for these, there are many variations on those dates by at least 1000 years or so, so when I say give or take it's not only the bible but sciences dates that you have to average.

Um dude, get some serious material and read it. Not pop mystery writing.

There is noe xact date in achaeology, unless you are very lucky.

dating is always done by a number of methods and you hope that they converge on a date.

However all the dates are approximate and they only reflect what material is preserved.

Now in NO way is there any evidence for homo sapiens neanderthlais existing in biblical times.

[Dancing David]

If it were all imagination it would seem we would know that, but that is not the case and why record over and over some ones delusion?
Plus come up with specifics.
Not by one or two but thousands of people and in some cases multiple witnesses.

Lets see, you do know that none of the NT accounts were written by the people who actually saw the events alleged to have occured, don't you? They were written third or fourth hand, they were oral traditions for at least 60-100 years.

Is all that is shown on TV true?

[Elizabeth I]

Talkin Cro-Magnon, the people who were living alongside Neanderthals at the end of the last ice age (ca. 35,000-10,000 years ago).


I’m talking about the line between them and us also, Cro-Magnonand moder man.

Um, Cro-Magnon man is modern man.

The major changes for us that tie us to what is written in the bible.
Neanderthals died out because all they ate was meat, it affected their brain size, where intuitiveness is, and they couldn’t adapt and change.
They start to die out after the first ice age extinction.
By the second the Hobbits are gone and Neanderthals and any other sub Humans.

We adapt and excel we adapted and at this point first contact by God happens between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
I have the feeling the reason is, because of our brains ability’s and size.

What?

(And would you please learn to form plurals and possessives?)


From what I have read they aren't such idiots.

36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind 6of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also 7celestial bodies and 8terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 sSo also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 tIt is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You still haven't learned, have you? You can't quote the Bible to prove the Bible is true.

[gambling_cruiser]

snip.

Is all that is shown on TV true?
Sure, especially the advertising segments. They wouldn't lie to us!

On the other hand if edge had started this thread one day earlier it would have been at least funny.

[Helen]

Well he didn't build it in to me. Now what ?
Exactly. I don't know where you live, Edge, perhaps this is not so common where you are, but there are many people all over the world who have no such thing built in. And why would we be missed out?

[TimCallahan]

. . . . The oldest fossils of modern human beings, Homo sapiens sapiens, are 125,000-100,000 years old, appearing at the time of the first of the great ice ages.

Talkin Cro-Magnon, the people who were living alongside Neanderthals at the end of the last ice age (ca. 35,000-10,000 years ago).


I’m talking about the line between them and us also, Cro-Magnonand moder man.

The major changes for us that tie us to what is written in the bible.
Neanderthals died out because all they ate was meat, it affected their brain size, where intuitiveness is, and they couldn’t adapt and change.
They start to die out after the first ice age extinction.
By the second the Hobbits are gone and Neanderthals and any other sub Humans.

We adapt and excel we adapted and at this point first contact by God happens between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago.
I have the feeling the reason is, because of our brains ability’s and size.

I have no idea what passes for science in your psyche. However, this post contains the following errors:

1) The oldest fossils of modern human beings are not from 125,000 years ago, but from 195,000 years ago. Okay, that's a minor point. However, that was not the time of the first glaciation. There had been several before that, going back at least 1,000,000 years.

2) As has already been pointed out to you, Cro-Magnons are modern men.

3) What is the source behind your assertion that the Neanderthals died out because they only ate meat? This is a new one on me.

[TimCallahan]

Hey, Edge:

Here's yet another transitional skull: The Florisbad skull from South Africa, dates to ca. 250,000 years is another pre-sapiens Homo heidelbergensis skull. Do you still say modern humans appeared suddenly?

[edge]

Hey, Edge:

Here's yet another transitional skull: The Florisbad skull from South Africa, dates to ca. 250,000 years is another pre-sapiens Homo heidelbergensis skull. Do you still say modern humans appeared suddenly?

If that's what you want to believe but for me the reasons for the flood record and what the ancients wrote are intriguing and seem to fit in to what has been discovered in the fossil record.
The Hebrew describes the sub-humans, the hybrids.


There where three types of sub-humans, before 12,000 years ago.

As far as your number three up there they know this to be pretty much a fact from brain casts made of Neanderthals skulls and the differences they show.
The parts they are lacking in or believed to be smaller are the parietal lobe and the temporal area; this is the area that deals with language memory and remembering spatial locations. Being smaller might have been significant for thinking power, even though slight, may have had a major impact on their survival.
How they found out about diet was discovered through teeth and bone being submitted to a test to see what the chemical signatures of proteins that are incorporated into our bones and teeth were.
There is no evidence that plant food was at all important in their diet.
Even thought there were plenty of edible fruits, berries and roots, no marine food at all.
Done at the Max Plank Institute.
It was found that they were almost exclusively meat eaters like wolves.
They also show no signs of change no matter where they lived.
The tests were done on skeletons from different regions over a 100,000-year period with no changes in their habits.

They did one thing and that was hunting big game and they just kept on doing that for hundreds of thousands of years and their technology tells a similar story, or the way they hunted, and tools they used.


First contact happens about the rise of Cro-Magnon.
The area of the brain that's associated with more ability shows up in that time-line.

So what ever was before or what you think is linked to Cro-Magnon, all those sub-humans, where still alive with Cro-Magnons.

The difference between the Cros and us is slight but there is a difference.
They were more robust and had longer leg bones, for hunting on the run.

I have no idea what passes for science in your psyche. However, this post contains the following errors:

There are no errors; you just don’t like my beliefs.
Man may not have recorded it precisely but they are describing what was living next to them what took place and their beliefs.

If you want to give me an F for beliefs go ahead be biased, I have listened to what science has and if it was a paper that I wanted to pass I would leave my beliefs out.
However the whole truth is better as I see it, it makes room for the real truth of what happened…why it was a myth and truth.

The way I see it we didn’t write this down for about 6 to 7 thousand years, not three.

[Complexity]

edge - I had hoped you'd become a bit more sane while I was gone, but you seem to have gotten more delusional instead.

Please get some help, if anything can help you. Shed your superstitions.

[Steve001]

You still haven't learned, have you? You can't quote the Bible to prove the Bible is true.

You sure can because the Bible was written by God and is his inerrant word. In short- God don't lie.

It's unlikely edge will ever experience an awakening to this small truth.

[edge]

You sure can because the Bible was written by God and is his inerrant word. In short- God don't lie.

It's unlikely edge will ever experience an awakening to this small truth.


First off what I quoted wasn't in the bible it was from the book of Thomas the doubter, from the Gnostic.

The first books in the bible were written from men living in Babylon delivered to the exiled Hebrews as they tried to rebuild the temple the first time.
If they would follow the laws in there they were allowed to stay there and rebuild Jerusalem.

You are right God doesn’t lie but mans memory is flawed.
How do you explain that the only evidence that anything reaching the size of a global flood happened at about 12,900 years ago?

[edge]

edge - I had hoped you'd become a bit more sane while I was gone, but you seem to have gotten more delusional instead.

Please get some help, if anything can help you. Shed your superstitions.

You telling me that the fossil record doesn’t support this, (my hypothesis/theory), with what we have that is written?

[edge]

1) The oldest fossils of modern human beings are not from 125,000 years ago, but from 195,000 years ago. Okay, that's a minor point. However, that was not the time of the first glaciations. There had been several before that, going back at least 1,000,000 years.

Men weren’t around 1,000,000 years ago they were around for the last two glaciations, within 100,000 thousand years or so.

The sub humans you want to link to are dying off during these times and these are the ones they seen and wrote about also, still living, although they call them by different names.
At this time the brains of Cro-Magnon and modern humans have evolved enough to contemplate God and first contact occurs.

The parietal lobe and the temporal area plus the higher dome of the cranium is the differance.

[edge]

Even if we suddenly appear we are still subject to evolution /adaptation that is the way of the matter universe we live in.

Some of that may be showing up even now as things skeptics think are paranormal like E.S.P. second sight, telekinesis, ect…things that are associated with brain power, also with the soul or spirit and what it is capable of or what is written about that.

E.S.P. second sight, telekinesis I have witnessed personally.

[Complexity]

E.S.P. second sight, telekinesis I have witnessed personally.


Potent hallucinogens are at work here.

[Steve001]

First off what I quoted wasn't in the bible it was from the book of Thomas the doubter, from the Gnostic.

The first books in the bible were written from men living in Babylon delivered to the exiled Hebrews as they tried to rebuild the temple the first time.
If they would follow the laws in there they were allowed to stay there and rebuild Jerusalem.

You are right God doesn’t lie but mans memory is flawed.
How do you explain that the only evidence that anything reaching the size of a global flood happened at about 12,900 years ago?

It doesn't matter one teensy-weensy bit the source; you still believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. You should realize the Bible is the inspired words of men not literal dictation. like an impressionist artist paints a landscape not as it is, but as he/she perceives it to be.

There nothing to explain there was no global flood. That is a myth. There were regional floods.

A plausible explanation why diverse cultures have similar mythologies could be do to the drastic reduction in the human population . An example might be what occurred after the [B]Toba supereruption.

[Elizabeth I]

The difference between the Cros and us is slight but there is a difference. They were more robust and had longer leg bones, for hunting on the run.

And Tim Duncan is 17 inches taller than I am - meaning that his leg bones are probably longer - plays basketball a whole lot better and makes more money. So what?


First off what I quoted wasn't in the bible it was from the book of Thomas the doubter, from the Gnostic.

Oh, excuse me. What you quoted wasn't from the Bible, it was from one of the books that the Bible committee decided shouldn't be included because it didn't support their particular strain of superstition. That makes it much more credible.


How do you explain that the only evidence that anything reaching the size of a global flood happened at about 12,900 years ago?

There is no evidence of a global flood. So nobody has to explain it.

[TimCallahan]

If that's what you want to believe but for me the reasons for the flood record and what the ancients wrote are intriguing and seem to fit in to what has been discovered in the fossil record.
The Hebrew describes the sub-humans, the hybrids.


There where three types of sub-humans, before 12,000 years ago.

As far as your number three up there they know this to be pretty much a fact from brain casts made of Neanderthals skulls and the differences they show.
The parts they are lacking in or believed to be smaller are the parietal lobe and the temporal area; this is the area that deals with language memory and remembering spatial locations. Being smaller might have been significant for thinking power, even though slight, may have had a major impact on their survival.
How they found out about diet was discovered through teeth and bone being submitted to a test to see what the chemical signatures of proteins that are incorporated into our bones and teeth were.
There is no evidence that plant food was at all important in their diet.
Even thought there were plenty of edible fruits, berries and roots, no marine food at all.
Done at the Max Plank Institute.
It was found that they were almost exclusively meat eaters like wolves.
They also show no signs of change no matter where they lived.
The tests were done on skeletons from different regions over a 100,000-year period with no changes in their habits.

They did one thing and that was hunting big game and they just kept on doing that for hundreds of thousands of years and their technology tells a similar story, or the way they hunted, and tools they used.


First contact happens about the rise of Cro-Magnon.
The area of the brain that's associated with more ability shows up in that time-line.

So what ever was before or what you think is linked to Cro-Magnon, all those sub-humans, where still alive with Cro-Magnons.

The difference between the Cros and us is slight but there is a difference.
They were more robust and had longer leg bones, for hunting on the run.



There are no errors; you just don’t like my beliefs.
Man may not have recorded it precisely but they are describing what was living next to them what took place and their beliefs.

If you want to give me an F for beliefs go ahead be biased, I have listened to what science has and if it was a paper that I wanted to pass I would leave my beliefs out.
However the whole truth is better as I see it, it makes room for the real truth of what happened…why it was a myth and truth.

The way I see it we didn’t write this down for about 6 to 7 thousand years, not three.

Please provide citations for the hilited areas above:

First, what Hebrew word refers to "the sub-humans, the hybrids"?

Second, what are the three types of sub-humans that were alive before 12,000 years ago?

Third, please provide the article or link to the specific research regarding the diet of Neanderthals that was done by the Max Plank Institute.

[edge]

The Toba supereruption (Young Toba Tuff or simply YTT[1]) occurred between 69,000 and 77,000 years ago at Lake Toba (Sumatra, Indonesia), and it is recognized as one of Earth's largest known eruptions. The related catastrophe theory holds that this supervolcanic event plunged the planet into a 6 to 10 year volcanic winter, which resulted in the world's human population being reduced to 10,000 or even a mere 1,000 breeding pairs, creating a bottleneck in human evolution. Some researchers argue that the Toba eruption produced not only a catastrophic volcanic winter but also an additional 1,000 year cooling episode.
The bolding is mine.

The first glaciations with men around, very good!
That is in the time frame.

[edge]

Please provide citations for the hilited areas above:

First, what Hebrew word refers to "the sub-humans, the hybrids"?

Second, what are the three types of sub-humans that were alive before 12,000 years ago?

Third, please provide the article or link to the specific research regarding the diet of Neanderthals that was done by the Max Plank Institute.

1.
Rephaim - from the root rapha = spirits, shades Gen. 14:5
Anakim - race of giants Num. 13:33 descendents of Nephilim
Emim - the proud deserters, terrors, race of giants Gen. 14:5
Zuzim - the evil ones, roaming things Gen. 14:5
Zamzummims - the evil plotters, Deut. 2:20
Zophim - watchers, angels who descended Num. 23, distinct from "holy watchers" aligned with God
Sepherim - the many. . . .

Some of the names.


2. Neanderthals, the Hobbits, which resembles what you are trying to link us to, Homo erectus.

ScienceDaily (Jan. 21, 2009) — In a an analysis of the size, shape and asymmetry of the cranium of Homo floresiensis, Karen Baab, Ph.D., a researcher in the Department of Anatomical Scienes at Stony Brook University, and colleagues conclude that the fossil, found in Indonesia in 2003 and known as the “Hobbit,” is not human.

3. here's one. http://video.pbs.org/video/1327194805/

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/anthro/programs/csho/pmwiki.php/Home/NeanderthalsRevisited
Three sub humans? Possibly four.
http://www.earthmagazine.org/earth/article/327-7da-3-18

Better have a look at this site too.
http://scienceonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/274/5294/1870

[edge]

It doesn't matter one teensy-weensy bit the source; you still believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. You should realize the Bible is the inspired words of men not literal dictation. like an impressionist artist paints a landscape not as it is, but as he/she perceives it to be.

There nothing to explain there was no global flood. That is a myth. There were regional floods.

A plausible explanation why diverse cultures have similar mythologies could be do to the drastic reduction in the human population . An example might be what occurred after the [B]Toba supereruption.




I believe that what came directly from the prophets and Jesus is the truth/inerrant word of God.

History is a different matter as far as accuracy and information just as the books left out of the bible.

[Complexity]

I believe that what came directly from the prophets and Jesus is the truth/inerrant word of God.


Well, that's silly of you.

Maybe you have a tumor that is interfering with your thinking.

[Dancing David]

If that's what you want to believe but for me the reasons for the flood record and what the ancients wrote are intriguing and seem to fit in to what has been discovered in the fossil record.
The Hebrew describes the sub-humans, the hybrids.

[pixy misa]
Wrong. That is not what the fossil record shows.
[/pixy misa]



There where three types of sub-humans, before 12,000 years ago.

More wrong.

Earliest fully gracile human beings, fully homo sapiens sapiens is appearing around 60,000 BP, mixed gracile and neandethalis appear around 150,000 BP

You need to check your sources and cite them.


As far as your number three up there they know this to be pretty much a fact from brain casts made of Neanderthals skulls and the differences they show.

Um citations?
samples?


The parts they are lacking in or believed to be smaller are the parietal lobe and the temporal area; this is the area that deals with language memory and remembering spatial locations. Being smaller might have been significant for thinking power, even though slight, may have had a major impact on their survival.
How they found out about diet was discovered through teeth and bone being submitted to a test to see what the chemical signatures of proteins that are incorporated into our bones and teeth were.
There is no evidence that plant food was at all important in their diet.

Cite your source, there is considerable dental wear in neanderthalis.

Even thought there were plenty of edible fruits, berries and roots, no marine food at all.
Done at the Max Plank Institute.
It was found that they were almost exclusively meat eaters like wolves.

Citation.

They also show no signs of change no matter where they lived.
The tests were done on skeletons from different regions over a 100,000-year period with no changes in their habits.

They did one thing and that was hunting big game and they just kept on doing that for hundreds of thousands of years and their technology tells a similar story, or the way they hunted, and tools they used.

Still no citations



First contact happens about the rise of Cro-Magnon.
The area of the brain that's associated with more ability shows up in that time-line.

So what ever was before or what you think is linked to Cro-Magnon, all those sub-humans, where still alive with Cro-Magnons.

The difference between the Cros and us is slight but there is a difference.

That is ********.

They were more robust and had longer leg bones, for hunting on the run.

Like wow, what is the variation in current homo sap sap? You are full of ****.



There are no errors; you just don’t like my beliefs.
Man may not have recorded it precisely but they are describing what was living next to them what took place and their beliefs.

If you want to give me an F for beliefs go ahead be biased, I have listened to what science has and if it was a paper that I wanted to pass I would leave my beliefs out.
However the whole truth is better as I see it, it makes room for the real truth of what happened…why it was a myth and truth.

The way I see it we didn’t write this down for about 6 to 7 thousand years, not three.

[RecoveringYuppy]

FWIW edge is apparently correct about Neanderthal being exclusively (or nearly so) a meat eater. See citations 11 and 12 referred to in the intro here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

[Ausmerican]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.


So, still nothing then?

[Elizabeth I]

The first glaciations with men around, very good!

Are you seriously suggesting that when the glaciers retreated after an ice age, it caused a world-wide flood?

Do you know that after an ice age, the glaciers don't just all melt away?

[Tricky]

The Toba supereruption (Young Toba Tuff or simply YTT[1]) occurred between 69,000 and 77,000 years ago at Lake Toba (Sumatra, Indonesia), and it is recognized as one of Earth's largest known eruptions. The related catastrophe theory holds that this supervolcanic event plunged the planet into a 6 to 10 year volcanic winter, which resulted in the world's human population being reduced to 10,000 or even a mere 1,000 breeding pairs, creating a bottleneck in human evolution. Some researchers argue that the Toba eruption produced not only a catastrophic volcanic winter but also an additional 1,000 year cooling episode.
The bolding is mine.

The first glaciations with men around, very good!
That is in the time frame.
Taken word-for-word from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory). (You really need to learn to cite your sources, Edge.)

It is a pity you didn't pay attention to the rest of the article which contradicts much of what you have said here. (For example, it mentions that humans had a low breeding population as long as 1.2 million years ago.)

And this is the problem when you cherry-pick only the information that you believe supports your case. You wind up with a hodge-podge of half-facts that you try (unsuccessfully) to fit into your unbendable framework of religious belief.

It can't be done, Edge. The bible is wrong about science almost every time it mentions it. The fossil record shows complete and continuous lines of evolution of some organisms that date back to at least the Cretaceous, more than 60 million years ago. Mostly they are tiny marine organisms which accounts for the fact that the record is so continuous, as compared to the ill-preserved, often eroded and otherwise incomplete records of large land mammals.

Learn about paleontology and anthropology, Edge, and you will realize why you look so ignorant here.

[TimCallahan]

1.
Rephaim - from the root rapha = spirits, shades Gen. 14:5
Anakim - race of giants Num. 13:33 descendents of Nephilim
Emim - the proud deserters, terrors, race of giants Gen. 14:5
Zuzim - the evil ones, roaming things Gen. 14:5
Zamzummims - the evil plotters, Deut. 2:20
Zophim - watchers, angels who descended Num. 23, distinct from "holy watchers" aligned with God
Sepherim - the many. . . .

Some of the names.


This is a classic case of eisegesis - reading one's own ideas into the biblical text, as opposed to exigesis - reading out of the text what's in it. Specifically, the Nephilim and their variants (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzumim etc.) are supposed to be the offspring of angels and humans, not humans and sub-humans, as you assert.

1.
2. Neanderthals, the Hobbits, which resembles what you are trying to link us to, Homo erectus.

ScienceDaily (Jan. 21, 2009) — In a an analysis of the size, shape and asymmetry of the cranium of Homo floresiensis, Karen Baab, Ph.D., a researcher in the Department of Anatomical Scienes at Stony Brook University, and colleagues conclude that the fossil, found in Indonesia in 2003 and known as the “Hobbit,” is not human.


Okay, this seems to be misunderstanding between us regarding terms. While Neanderthals and Homo erectus were less intelligent than we are, they were clearly human, not sub-human. However, I take the point that Homo sapiens co-existed for a time with Homo neanderthalensis and Homo erectus. I take issue with the 12.000 y.a. date, however. The Neanderthals seem to have died out between 20,000 and 30,000 years ago. As to Homo floresiensis, the so-called "hobbit," debate still rages as to how valid the find is as a separate species.


3. here's one. http://video.pbs.org/video/1327194805/

http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/anthro/programs/csho/pmwiki.php/Home/NeanderthalsRevisited
Three sub humans? Possibly four.
http://www.earthmagazine.org/earth/article/327-7da-3-18

Better have a look at this site too.
http://scienceonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/274/5294/1870

As to the Neanderthals being exclusively meat eaters, just because the video says they did one thing, hunt big game, doesn't mean their women didn't gather whatever nuts, fruits and edible roots sere available. While their diet was heavily weighted toward big game, they certainly were not obligate carnivores.

[Dancing David]

FWIW edge is apparently correct about Neanderthal being exclusively (or nearly so) a meat eater. See citations 11 and 12 referred to in the intro here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Not really they just indicate the source of protein.

Well the isotopes show what the primary source of protein was, not that they ate mainly meat. Other papers, and they are few and far between, really show no difference in the dental wear patterns of h.s. neandethalis to h.s. sapiens.

From source 11
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC16602/?tool=pmcentrez

The Neanderthal samples from Vindija have high δ15N values, which indicate that the overwhelming majority of their dietary protein was from animal, rather than plant, sources (Table 1, Fig. ​Fig.1).1). The associated δ13C values indicate the exploitation of more open-ranging herbivores, despite the hilly terrain of the Hrvatsko Zagorje. The Neanderthal values are close to the later carnivore isotope values from Dolní Vĕstonice II and Milovice (22), as well as those of earlier carnivores from Marillac and Scladina (10, 11), indicating that these Neanderthals had diets similar to nonhuman carnivores.

I have to reerad this paper, I am not sure that they can draw any conclusions on the ratio of animals to plant eaten except in the protein base.

What they do establish rather well is that h.s. neanderthalis was hunting, not scavenging animal protein.

This is the conclusion

Isotope analyses of two Neanderthals and associated fauna from Vindija Cave, Croatia, have indicated that the bulk of their dietary protein came from animal sources. Comparison with faunal remains from this and other sites of similar age indicates that the Vindija Neanderthal isotope values were similar to those of other carnivores. These results are very close to the results for earlier Late Pleistocene Neanderthals from France and Belgium.Therefore, the emerging picture of the European Neanderthal diet indicates that although physiologically they were presumably omnivores, they behaved as carnivores, with animal protein being the main source of dietary protein. This finding is in agreement with the indirect archeological evidence and strongly points to the Neanderthals having been active predators.

So the evidence say that they ate meat and that the primary source of protein was meat.

This however does not say that they ate predominatly meat at all.

[edge]

Zuzim - the evil ones, roaming things Gen. 14:5

I would have to say that these are what they call Neanderthals.

So the evidence say that they ate meat and that the primary source of protein was meat.



The reason for the lack in the sides of the brain, or a smaller area than ours, even though they in general, had a larger brain, it was diet…. And location, they were stuck in a rut, they stopped evolving and developing. This I believe is as far as evolution could take them without God....So as I see it both sides of this argument are right....the reason for the confusion.

I have to reerad this paper, I am not sure that they can draw any conclusions on the ratio of animals to plant eaten except in the protein base.

What they do establish rather well is that h.s. neanderthalis was hunting, not scavenging animal protein.


He was hunting but in the way and using the same tools weapons they used in the same way for hundreds of thousands of years.

This is a classic case of eisegesis - reading one's own ideas into the biblical text, as opposed to exigesis - reading out of the text what's in it. Specifically, the Nephilim and their variants (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzumim etc.) are supposed to be the offspring of angels and humans, not humans and sub-humans, as you assert.



Well I am sure because of research that mostly they are wrong and so lets up-date what it is they were describing and fix it.
Science does this all the time.

Interpretation is everything especially if there is evidence that explains these things in a more correct manner, and using science, how’s that?


Further more when I said that they were more robust that means on the average, and I am sure since we are they and they are us the variations in certain genes are going to show up in the present time.

Now Tricky says:
It is a pity you didn't pay attention to the rest of the article which contradicts much of what you have said here. (For example, it mentions that humans had a low breeding population as long as 1.2 million years ago.)

And this is the problem when you cherry-pick only the information that you believe supports your case. You wind up with a hodge-podge of half-facts that you try (unsuccessfully) to fit into your unbendable framework of religious belief.

It can't be done, Edge. The bible is wrong about science almost every time it mentions it. The fossil record shows complete and continuous lines of evolution of some organisms that date back to at least the Cretaceous, more than 60 million years ago. Mostly they are tiny marine organisms which accounts for the fact that the record is so continuous, as compared to the ill-preserved, often eroded and otherwise incomplete records of large land mammals.

Learn about paleontology and anthropology, Edge, and you will realize why you look so ignorant here.


Calling me names doesn’t make you right.
But as I stated before, even if we appear suddenly that doesn’t mean that we are not obliged to follow evolution if inserted into the matter universe.

What you think is man that dates back to a million years or so was alive when we appear?
Your point is moot/theory.

What I bolded above:

They are not using science to claim anything about what they describe, it is their descriptions that we need to use and science backs up what they say…it is us that uses science to co berate what they were describing.

And the last line of bolding: this is the same thing that creationists use, Ironic

This is a classic case of eisegesis – reading one's own ideas into the biblical text, as opposed to exigesis - reading out of the text what's in it. Specifically, the Nephilim and their variants (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzumim etc.) are supposed to be the offspring of angels and humans, not humans and sub-humans, as you assert.





Zophim - watchers, angels who descended Num. 23, distinct from "holy watchers" aligned with God
Sepherim - the many. .

These two may be more in line with your point.

In bold above, amazing that a skeptic/atheist can do this all the time to distort but when a believer clarifies these things with ones own ideas backed by science it is suddenly wrong and damnable?

Amazing!

The Neanderthals seem to have died out between 20,000 and 30,000 years ago. As to Homo floresiensis, the so-called "hobbit," debate still rages as to how valid the find is as a separate species.


Just remember that the Cros. Were around back then and some of their memories were undoubtedly passed on, as their memory’s to the future generations including modern man till he actually had a way to record these observations of the world around them.

They, as I read this, what they say about the Hobbits is, that they might be the decedents in a more direct line of Homo erectus, another dead end. They closely resemble Homo erectus more than any other creature.
Except the locals say they have seen them in recent past, the 12,000 year date is what they think is the longest possible date because of locals who have clamed to see them, or their observations of them in their memories.

Remember this also that there is at least three impact craters at around 50,000 years ago that coincide with the great Toba super eruption.
One of them is near this area, draw your own conclusions.
We will never know exact dates or that they related but this is the evidence, there are margins of error when it comes to dating.

The first extinction is what set this in motion the second made sure, we are the only humans around today, and the question is was it intentional?

Dancing David don’t be so dismissing till you catch up.
Too much dancing can be bad, LOL.


There was at least 50 thousand years to get to this: pixs below.

[RecoveringYuppy]

So the evidence say that they ate meat and that the primary source of protein was meat.

This however does not say that they ate predominatly meat at all.
I'm pretty sure that what you mean is that you come to different conclusion based on their evidence, which is reasonable. But the authors themselves do conclude "carnivore" over a wide range of time based on the evidence.

Come on, you can handle finding one evidence based conclusion supported by the experts in edge's post, can't you?

[Dancing David]

I'm pretty sure that what you mean is that you come to different conclusion based on their evidence, which is reasonable. But the authors themselves do conclude "carnivore" over a wide range of time based on the evidence.

Come on, you can handle finding one evidence based conclusion supported by the experts in edge's post, can't you?

I am not sure what you are asking here, the quote from the source is as it states in the source.

the ratio of animal protein to plant protein is what is given. They even state that neandethalis was most likely an omonivore, what is your question?

ETA: I read the article, did you?

When they refer to the neanderthalis as a 'carnivore' it is in comparing the inferred prey animals of neanderthalis.

No where in the article do they say that neaderthalis ate mainly meat, and the bulk of the article is about how they were hunting rather than scavenging.

here is a paragraph from the conclusions, please show me where it says that they ate mainly meat or that I am interpreting the data differently:

Therefore, the emerging picture of the European Neanderthal diet indicates that although physiologically they were presumably omnivores, they behaved as carnivores, with animal protein being the main source of dietary protein. This finding is in agreement with the indirect archeological evidence and strongly points to the Neanderthals having been active predators.

The thrust of the article is an exploration of the shift from scavenging to active hunting.

To talk about the 'carnivore behavior' is to not exclude the eating of plant material. Where do you see that anywhere in the article?

they make zero discussion about what the ratio of plant to animal was, now do they?

You do know that bears are carnivores as well? And that they are also omnivores?

Seriously, what are you trying to read into this, show me the direct quotes. There is difference between an obligate carnivore like a cat or wolf and an ape or bear which are carnivores because they do eat meat, but that does not say meat is all that they eat.

[TimCallahan]

Zuzim - the evil ones, roaming things Gen. 14:5

I would have to say that these are what they call Neanderthals. . . .

Zophim - watchers, angels who descended Num. 23, distinct from "holy watchers" aligned with God
Sepherim - the many. .

These two may be more in line with your point. . . .



Let's look at Gen. 14:5:

In the fourteenth year Ched-or-loamer andthe kings who were with him came and subdued the Rephaim in Astoraeth-karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim, . . .

Okay, what in this gives you any reason to believe these were Neanderthals. As I have noted in an earlier post, the Nephilim / Rephaim / Emim etc. were supposed to be the offspring of angels mating with human females and the descendants of such offspring. Hybrids between angels and humns can hardly be construed as Neanderthals, sub-hmans or any human - Neanderthal hybrid. Once again, your are reading into te biblical text stuff that just isn't there.

The Zuzim could meaning roaming creatures, though in the context of Gen. 14:5 they would have to be considered a tribe. Looking up the word zuzim I could find no definition that could be construed as "evil ones." And again, there's nothing to equate them with Neanderthals.

As to the Zophim in Numbers 23, this is what I found (Num. 23:14):

And he [Balak] took him [Balaam] to the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah and built seven altars and offered a bull and a ram on each altar.

While the field of Zophim is a location, the word zophim is masculine plural and means "watchers' as you say. So this relates to the Neanderthals in what way?

[Elizabeth I]

As to the Neanderthals being exclusively meat eaters, just because the video says they did one thing, hunt big game, doesn't mean their women didn't gather whatever nuts, fruits and edible roots sere available. While their diet was heavily weighted toward big game, they certainly were not obligate carnivores.

In fact, haven't seeds and nuts been found in Neanderthal-era camps?


They, as I read this, what they say about the Hobbits is, that they might be the decedents in a more direct line of Homo erectus.

A decedent is a dead person. I suppose all the "hobbits" are in fact dead now, but it seems superfluous and redundant to mention it.

[edge]

In fact, haven't seeds and nuts been found in Neanderthal-era camps?




A decedent is a dead person. I suppose all the "hobbits" are in fact dead now, but it seems superfluous and redundant to mention it.


Maybe so.

The amount of meat in their diet shows they weren't simply scavengers.
Chemical analyses of bones found in caves in Croatia showed Neanderthals ate a diet similar to that of wolves and lions, and probably hunted woolly mammoths ...

Trinkaus said the diet would have been unhealthy by today's standards, but the Neanderthals were trying to survive in a cold climate, where not a lot of plant food was available.


www.trussel.com/prehist/news202.htm


I'm sure they did eat what ever they found but primarily Meat.
This had much to do with development of the mind.



Anthropologists have since found that Neanderthals lived with modern humans as recently as 24,000 years ago, that they made and wore jewelry, had fairly sophisticated tools and weapons and, perhaps most controversially, may have interbred with modern Homo sapiens.

[edge]

Quote:
Anthropologists have since found that Neanderthals lived with modern humans as recently as 24,000 years ago, that they made and wore jewelry, had fairly sophisticated tools and weapons and, perhaps most controversially, may have interbred with modern Homo sapiens.

Possibly the reason for the deluge, as it's called?
The event that cinches their demise?

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

To bad we don't have more information about this as it could mean so many things.

[edge]

From the Hebrew version:


1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose. 3 And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.' 4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. {P}
5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.

In those days and after that?
Kind of like I said, they were there during the first extiction and after that till the next?

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Quote:
Anthropologists have since found that Neanderthals lived with modern humans as recently as 24,000 years ago, that they made and wore jewelry, had fairly sophisticated tools and weapons and, perhaps most controversially, may have interbred with modern Homo sapiens.

Possibly the reason for the deluge, as it's called?
The event that cinches their demise?

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

To bad we don't have more information about this as it could mean so many things.

Actually several labs have independently of each other sequenced mitochondrial DNA from neanderthal bone, as well as partial genomic DNA. The data seems to indicate no interbreeding took place, regardless of what is found in speculative fiction.

What I find baffling though is why you seem to take a position that is neither fowl nor fish. Your theories will never go with YEC's as they still require the earth to be far older than suggested in the bible AND they contradict all known science. If you're willing to go with the god-guided evolution, why the twists to make it fit the flood n stuff?

[RecoveringYuppy]

ETA: I read the article, did you?
Yes, I read the article.

... indicating that these Neanderthals had diets similar to nonhuman carnivores.

It was found that they were almost exclusively meat eaters like wolves.

On this one specific point, edge is making an accurate, evidence based, claim.

[edge]

Actually several labs have independently of each other sequenced mitochondrial DNA from neanderthal bone, as well as partial genomic DNA. The data seems to indicate no interbreeding took place, regardless of what is found in speculative fiction.

What I find baffling though is why you seem to take a position that is neither fowl nor fish. Your theories will never go with YEC's as they still require the earth to be far older than suggested in the bible AND they contradict all known science. If you're willing to go with the god-guided evolution, why the twists to make it fit the flood n stuff?

That's because none of them survived or have been found.

The earth is older than one side thinks and younger than the other side thinks.
I'm only interested in the creation time-line for human beings that fit both sides.


I think it works pretty well, I mean that's just me.

Thousands of memories at work over the ages and this is what we get.

But hey what happened to them could happen to us.

[Dancing David]

Maybe so.


www.trussel.com/prehist/news202.htm


I'm sure they did eat what ever they found but primarily Meat.
This had much to do with development of the mind.

Hey Edge that is the paper that I reviewed and actually read already, the quotes by the Japanese Times are wrong. the paper says that the protein in their diet came from meat and that from the isotopes they tried to judge what prey animals they ate. It does NOT say that they ate primarily meat.

So the meat that they ate was like the meat of certain animals in the samples compared to other predators.

[Complexity]

Let's look at Gen. 14:5:


Why? Why would we do such an unintelligent thing?

The bible has absolutely nothing to offer except error and unethical and immoral behavior by the various 'gods' and their jewish and xian followers.

[Dancing David]

Yes, I read the article.


On this one specific point, edge is making an accurate, evidence based, claim.

I beg to differ but it may be too fine a point:

The Neanderthal samples from Vindija have high δ15N values, which indicate that the overwhelming majority of their dietary protein was from animal, rather than plant, sources (Table 1, Fig. 1). The associated δ13C values indicate the exploitation of more open-ranging herbivores, despite the hilly terrain of the Hrvatsko Zagorje. The Neanderthal values are close to the later carnivore isotope values from Dolní Vĕstonice II and Milovice (22), as well as those of earlier carnivores from Marillac and Scladina (10, 11), indicating that these Neanderthals had diets similar to nonhuman carnivores.


And that comment is about the isotope ratios in regards to what, not to overall diet but to the consumption of meat as the primary sources of protein, and if it was a prey animal that lived in a forest or a plain..

No where does it say that they did not eat plants and no where does it say that most or all of their food intake was meat.

:)

[Dancing David]

That's because none of them survived or have been found.

The earth is older than one side thinks and younger than the other side thinks.
I'm only interested in the creation time-line for human beings that fit both sides.


I think it works pretty well, I mean that's just me.

Thousands of memories at work over the ages and this is what we get.

But hey what happened to them could happen to us.

Um hey so God made Vesuvius to just look thirty millions years old.

Ah nothing like God the Trickster.

[Dancing David]

Just to add to my fine point:
This article recently published
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.abstract

Again uses the language that the main source of dietary protein was meat, despite the fact that they refer to the term carnivore, it does not imply that the Neanderthals ate mainly meat.
ETA:
from a museum site, I have to look for the paper:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/human-origins/neanderthals-diets/index.html

The sites reveal that Neanderthals didn’t always cook bones for their meat, which they often ate raw, but rather to make it easier to extract the marrow from them. They also cooked plants and nuts.


this person gives a paper for more recent than Neanderthal but should give the answer eventualy
http://home.gwu.edu/~ahenry/research.html

This is a brief and not very detailed article about the paper that I can't find yet:

Plants in Neanderthal diet: Plant microfossil evidence from the dental calculus of Shanidar III

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Neanderthals-Ate-Plants-84569.shtml

It would seem to indicate that in the case of this one specicmen that a neanderthal chewed some plants at some time


"Three of the teeth (of Shanidar III) had excellent preserved plaque that contained microscopic fossils of plant material. We know that this individual ate a variety of plants, including grass seeds, more commonly called grains today. The finding suggests that characterizing Neanderthals as obligate meat-eaters may be wrong, but there is still a lot more work to be done on this issue," said Henry.

"But the technique does not indicate whether an individual Neanderthal ate plants once or a thousand times. It also doesn't show the relative proportions of a food type in the individual's diet. By using a variety of techniques in tandem, we are going to get a much more realistic picture of paleodiets," said Matt Sponheimer from the University of Colorado in Boulder, who in 2006 published a study on the diet of Australopithecus based on the carbon isotope analysis of their teeth


This one disagrees:
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0047248406000765

And I think these articles also point out the peril of reading too much into a statement about the relative proportion of collagen proteins to determine that Nenderthals ate mainly meat.

[jadey]

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.


Ever notice how people are happier, friendlier in the spring time?
The Sun god (RA, I believe) works in the world.

[Dancing David]

Ever notice how people are happier, friendlier in the spring time?
The Sun god (RA, I believe) works in the world.

Ra Ra Ra , sis boom bah, he is the sun god , he is the fun god, Ra Ra Ra

ETA: Altered from the Illuminatus.

[edge]

Ever notice how people are happier, friendlier in the spring time?
The Sun god (RA, I believe) works in the world.

Your theory doesn't work in Florida; there are two seasons here, each is about six months long.
One season is heavenly and one is hellish.


Humidious rules during the hellish one, at about 95% on the average, with an average temperature of about 98 degrees.

[edge]

Just to add to my fine point:
This article recently published
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.abstract

Again uses the language that the main source of dietary protein was meat, despite the fact that they refer to the term carnivore, it does not imply that the Neanderthals ate mainly meat.
ETA:
from a museum site, I have to look for the paper:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/human-origins/neanderthals-diets/index.html


this person gives a paper for more recent than Neanderthal but should give the answer eventualy
http://home.gwu.edu/~ahenry/research.html

This is a brief and not very detailed article about the paper that I can't find yet:

Plants in Neanderthal diet: Plant microfossil evidence from the dental calculus of Shanidar III

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Neanderthals-Ate-Plants-84569.shtml

It would seem to indicate that in the case of this one specicmen that a neanderthal chewed some plants at some time



This one disagrees:
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0047248406000765

And I think these articles also point out the peril of reading too much into a statement about the relative proportion of collagen proteins to determine that Nenderthals ate mainly meat.


I believe there was some evidence of them chewing herbs for balms and such which after 300,000 thousand years of survival they should have discovered.
Especially after all the wounds they would receive from hunting at close quarters.

It wasn’t just the analysis of their bones but the region where they lived primarily and the hunting tools they used and what they lacked physically in the brain areas compared to ours, they didn’t change much at all during their rein.
If they had they might have been smarter in the long run who knows they had slightly larger brains in other areas, but not in what the scientists consider to be important for further development and advancements.

In other words they had a large hard drive but very little R.A.M….

[RecoveringYuppy]

And I think these articles also point out the peril of reading too much into a statement about the relative proportion of collagen proteins to determine that Nenderthals ate mainly meat.

But, back to the article we were originally discussing, you don't have to read the conclusion that Neanderthal was a carnivor into the article. It's explicit in the article. The authors concluded and stated in several places using different words that Neandertal was a carnivore. You might argue that they shouldn't have done that based solely on their new evidence, but they did conclude that. (And we don't know if their conclusion was solely based on their new data).

Again uses the language that the main source of dietary protein was meat, despite the fact that they refer to the term carnivore, it does not imply that the Neanderthals ate mainly meat.

Well, my reading of what they say indicates they understand the meaning of the word carnivore vs omnivore very well and would use omnivore if that's what they really meant.

The first article we discussed said Neanderthal was physiologically an omnivore but acted as a carnivore. Why would they write that if they weren't trying to say "Neanderthal ate mostly meat"?

[TimCallahan]

Why? Why would we do such an unintelligent thing?

The bible has absolutely nothing to offer except error and unethical and immoral behavior by the various 'gods' and their jewish and xian followers.

The reason I said, "Let's look at Gen. 14:5," was to try to get Edge to explain to me why he conflates the angel / human hybrids in the Bible (Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, Zamzumim, Emim, etc.) with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids. Genesis 14:5 was one of his examples. I was pointing out to him that it doesn't say anything except that a certain mythical Mesopotamian king put down a revolt among his subjects, some of which included variants of the Nephilim.

So far, the difference in the mitochondrial DNA of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, which indicates they were a separate species from us, making fertile hybrids impossible, hasn't phased him. Nor can I get an answer from him as to why he conflates divine / human hybrids, present in many if not all mythologies with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids.

[jadey]

Your theory doesn't work in Florida; there are two seasons here, each is about six months long.
One season is heavenly and one is hellish.


Humidious rules during the hellish one, at about 95% on the average, with an average temperature of about 98 degrees.

Coincidentally, I was just there (Disney) on easter and the following week. My kids were really excited about the easter bunny, though they have no idea about the origin of easter.

[edge]

The reason I said, "Let's look at Gen. 14:5," was to try to get Edge to explain to me why he conflates the angel / human hybrids in the Bible (Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, Zamzumim, Emim, etc.) with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids. Genesis 14:5 was one of his examples. I was pointing out to him that it doesn't say anything except that a certain mythical Mesopotamian king put down a revolt among his subjects, some of which included variants of the Nephilim.

So far, the difference in the mitochondrial DNA of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, which indicates they were a separate species from us, making fertile hybrids impossible, hasn't phased him. Nor can I get an answer from him as to why he conflates divine / human hybrids, present in many if not all mythologies with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids.

Well , we will have to dig deeper, but not tonight.

[edge]

Coincidentally, I was just there (Disney) on easter and the following week. My kids were really excited about the easter bunny, though they have no idea about the origin of easter.

Good choice to be here then, during the heavenly time, and that's from my perspective though, which has changed reversed.

Most lose sight of the meaning of Easter.

I don't know what you want to teach them?

I liked Sea World much more; it’s more in line with the theme of Florida.

Check out the airboat rides on the Saint Johns River it’s probably on line.
That goes with the swamp theme.

[dafydd]

This is all true, but what is recorded is they gathered at the manger to worship and they knew about this before it happened.

Same thing today people that believe gather together to fellow ship on the very most important aspect, to worship the real meaning and not lose sight of the real event being celebrated.
This most definitely holds true for Christians.

You do know that the biblical story of the birth of Jesus is just an old story? The early church concocted it to rope in the pagans.

[Dancing David]

Good choice to be here then, during the heavenly time, and that's from my perspective though, which has changed reversed.

Most lose sight of the meaning of Easter.



Do you mean passover? That is the real meaning of easter.

[Complexity]

Do you mean passover? That is the real meaning of easter.


easter is the celebration of chocolate.

Only in this sense is it holy.

Only in this sense is it real.

Bunnies have tried to take it over, but they are interlopers.

[edge]

Do you mean passover? That is the real meaning of easter.

I am glad that you know the difference but the question still stands for Jadey since she is the one who said Easter.

What makes us human lies in the brain with communication and speech at the center, also much has to deal with what an individual needs to survive like cooperation in living and survival and that seems to kick in even when the brain is infantile I believe.
God also wants cooperation like a parent does for a child.
That’s in general understanding of truth, and I may be making a leap here but that’s what it seems like and then we go back to when the brain was mature enough to understand and communicate with a God concept which takes a leap of faith.

[edge]

You do know that the biblical story of the birth of Jesus is just an old story? The early church concocted it to rope in the pagans.

Here's something you are not thinking about, would you go to your death over something that isn't true?
The founders that witnessed these events did, 10 of them were martyred and only one died of old age? Judas is still questionable.

Think about that and the fact that they all say they witnessed the events.

Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off,, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…

At first they did run away till the resurrection and ascension, they seemed to know the truth at that point and then did what they had to.
You would think that they would still run away but they knew it was real.

Even a child can recognize cooperation so what made them go against their instinct and not back off, run away?

I can read some ones intentions and run away, back off.

[jadey]

I am glad that you know the difference but the question still stands for Jadey since she is the one who said Easter.


I'm not sure what the question was. I merely stated that I was in Disney over easter and that my kids don't know the meaning of the origin of easter. Being raised catholic, I was always taught that easter signified JC's rising from the dead. Once my kids stop believing in the bunny, easter will have little significance for them, just as it has for me.

[edge]

easter is the celebration of chocolate.

Only in this sense is it holy.

Only in this sense is it real.

Bunnies have tried to take it over, but they are interlopers.

Off with their heads then and on with the stew!

We will always have chocolate!

[jadey]

Here's something you are not thinking about, would you go to your death over something that isn't true?


This happens all the time, whether it be drinking poison koolaid, martyring oneself for 72 virgins, invading a country for possessing WMDs, rejecting medicine, etc.

[edge]

I'm not sure what the question was. I merely stated that I was in Disney over easter and that my kids don't know the meaning of the origin of easter. Being raised catholic, I was always taught that easter signified JC's rising from the dead. Once my kids stop believing in the bunny, easter will have little significance for them, just as it has for me.

Are you talking about the bunny thing or Jesus, or the whole thing?
Just curious are you going to teach them all of it?

[edge]

This happens all the time, whether it be drinking poison koolaid, martyring oneself for 72 virgins, invading a country for possessing WMDs, rejecting medicine, etc.

The question was more direct would you die over your atheism that is if you are truly an atheist?
Wow just breathed my coffee in, almost all over my key board, damn.

All these that you metioned above involved going aginst god so as a true christian I would run like wild fire because I can recognize falsehoods.
Seek for yourself you do not need a church with so many conflicts within it's walls.

[Bododio]

easter is the celebration of chocolate.

Only in this sense is it holy.

Only in this sense is it real.

Bunnies have tried to take it over, but they are interlopers.

I solved the dilemma by eating chocolate bunnies. :p

[jadey]

Are you talking about the bunny thing or Jesus, or the whole thing?
Just curious are you going to teach them all of it?

As for Santa and the bunny, I promote that because it is fun for the kids. When they start questioning it, I won't really try to convince them that they are real.

As for the religious aspect, I don't intend to teach them about it unless they specifically ask. They learn all of this stuff from their friends and cousins anyway. (One time, their 5 year old cousin was chasing my son around with a bible yelling "believe in god or burn in hell." Her parents thought she was doing the right thing.) When they come to me with questions, I usually respond that "some people believe ...". I then ask if that concept seems reasonable to them. That just prompts them to give it some thought.

I remember a humorous incident when my son was 7 and a baby sitter was telling him about Noah's Ark. She told him it was a real story. He told her that it couldn't be true because the lions and tigers would eat the other animals. I was very proud of the way he thought that through.

[edge]

The reason I said, "Let's look at Gen. 14:5," was to try to get Edge to explain to me why he conflates the angel / human hybrids in the Bible (Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, Zamzumim, Emim, etc.) with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids. Genesis 14:5 was one of his examples. I was pointing out to him that it doesn't say anything except that a certain mythical Mesopotamian king put down a revolt among his subjects, some of which included variants of the Nephilim.

So far, the difference in the mitochondrial DNA of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, which indicates they were a separate species from us, making fertile hybrids impossible, hasn't phased him. Nor can I get an answer from him as to why he conflates divine / human hybrids, present in many if not all mythologies with Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids.

I will reply tonight on this and we'll examine all the details they left out through another book where they took these lines from.

[jadey]

All these that you metioned above involved going aginst god so as a true christian I would run like wild fire because I can recognize falsehoods.
Seek for yourself you do not need a church with so many conflicts within it's walls.

How about you go one step further, and abandon the book as well? Then you can truly seek for yourself. The moment you accept someone else's special revelation is the moment you give up the search.

[edge]

As for Santa and the bunny, I promote that because it is fun for the kids. When they start questioning it, I won't really try to convince them that they are real.

As for the religious aspect, I don't intend to teach them about it unless they specifically ask. They learn all of this stuff from their friends and cousins anyway. (One time, their 5 year old cousin was chasing my son around with a bible yelling "believe in god or burn in hell." Her parents thought she was doing the right thing.) When they come to me with questions, I usually respond that "some people believe ...". I then ask if that concept seems reasonable to them. That just prompts them to give it some thought.

I remember a humorous incident when my son was 7 and a baby sitter was telling him about Noah's Ark. She told him it was a real story. He told her that it couldn't be true because the lions and tigers would eat the other animals. I was very proud of the way he thought that through.

I have to wonder if it's not a lesson also for our future or benefit.
If it happened tomorrow (a strike by a comet or meteor), we would need to do the same thing but with many arks.
I have to do things now and walk the dog, be back tonight I hope.

And Like I have demonstrated there might be some truth to that story.

[edge]

How about you go one step further, and abandon the book as well? Then you can truly seek for yourself. The moment you accept someone else's special revelation is the moment you give up the search.

I did twice but and seeking for myself reveled the truth, personally.
You do not need four walls.

[Mirrorglass]

The question was more direct would you die over your atheism that is if you are truly an atheist?
Wow just breathed my coffee in, almost all over my key board, damn.

All these that you metioned above involved going aginst god so as a true christian I would run like wild fire because I can recognize falsehoods.
Seek for yourself you do not need a church with so many conflicts within it's walls.

So you're saying a martyr dying for a cause proves the cause is real, but only if the martyr was a true christian?

[jadey]

I did twice but and seeking for myself reveled the truth, personally.
You do not need four walls.

You mean to say that you sought the truth and you received a personal revelation that confirmed the christian story?

[Elizabeth I]

Here's something you are not thinking about, would you go to your death over something that isn't true?

Wow, so then we should all convert to fundamentalist Islam?

Or become Buddhist monks (http://www.angelfire.com/nb/protest/viet.html)?

Or become narcotraficantes?

What about people who don't die for their beliefs? Does that mean they are all liars?

[Chucky]

What the fossil record tells me, about the first men, and creation.

But first Gods Works today, how to recognize that.

Notice how around the celebration of the birth of Christ every ones so light hearted and calm, and kinder.
The as time goes by things slowly go back to the way they usually are, hectic?
Then around Easter Kindness returns?
God works in the world.

Hil-A-rious! Confirmation bias anyone? You should hear the attitude where I work around the holidays. Yeah, real peaceful. Even assuming that your observation is true, there couldn't possibly be a cultural component to to it, huh? Nope. Godidit.

Thanks though for the best laugh I've had all day.

[Dancing David]

Here's something you are not thinking about, would you go to your death over something that isn't true?
The founders that witnessed these events did, 10 of them were martyred and only one died of old age? Judas is still questionable.

Think about that and the fact that they all say they witnessed the events.

Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off,, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…

At first they did run away till the resurrection and ascension, they seemed to know the truth at that point and then did what they had to.
You would think that they would still run away but they knew it was real.

Even a child can recognize cooperation so what made them go against their instinct and not back off, run away?

I can read some ones intentions and run away, back off.

Considering that the gospels were written at least a hundred years after the events alleged, that is not much of an 'eye witness'.

[paximperium]

Considering that the gospels were written at least a hundred years after the events alleged, that is not much of an 'eye witness'.
Well, it's actually decades but heck, I'd love to hear Edge tell us which if any of the Gospel writer's even claimed to have met Jesus in person?

[Pup]

Here's something you are not thinking about, would you go to your death over something that isn't true?
The founders that witnessed these events did, 10 of them were martyred and only one died of old age? Judas is still questionable.

Think about that and the fact that they all say they witnessed the events.

Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off,, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…

At first they did run away till the resurrection and ascension, they seemed to know the truth at that point and then did what they had to.
You would think that they would still run away but they knew it was real.

Even a child can recognize cooperation so what made them go against their instinct and not back off, run away?

I can read some ones intentions and run away, back off.

Lots of people die horrible deaths believing things that turn out not to be true, even though they're totally convinced they're true at the time. Happens all the time.

"I'm sure there's no train coming toward that crossing, and even if there is I can make it across in time."

"Yes, I'm positive the parachute is packed properly."

"I can get to the summit and back before the storm hits."

"I can handle poisonous snakes without getting bitten and dying of the venom."

And that's not even counting all the people who endure religious persecution. If we vote on which religions are true based on how many people are willing to endure suffering or death for them, surely the Jewish religion should be near the head of the pack, with Islam, Mormonism, Wiccans and Pagans and lots of other examples in the running as well.

[edge]

It goes like this if you ask I will answer, then if I ask you will answer.
None of you answered my direct question?
But asked ten more?

Here's the question:
Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…

Here’s one of yours’:
Considering that the gospels were written at least a hundred years after the events alleged, that is not much of an 'eye witness'.

Other opinions vary most Biblical scholars will say 60 to 70 years is the closest that they can figure.

[edge]

LXIV. Vision of the fallen Angels in the Place of Punishment.
CHAPTER LXIV.
1. And other forms I saw hidden in that place. 2. I heard the voice of the angel saying: 'These are the angels who descended to the earth, and revealed what was hidden to the children of men and seduced the children of men into committing sin.'


LXV. Enoch foretells to Noah the Deluge and his own Preservation.
CHAPTER LXV.
1. And in those days Noah saw the earth that it had sunk down and its destruction was nigh. 2. And he arose from thence and went to the ends of the earth, and cried aloud to his grandfather Enoch: and Noah said three times with an embittered voice: Hear me, hear me, hear me.' 3. And I said unto him: 'Tell me what it is that is falling out on the earth that the earth is in such evil plight and shaken, lest perchance I shall perish with it?' 4. And thereupon there was a great commotion, on the earth, and a voice was heard from heaven, and I fell on my face. 5. And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: 'Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping?
Taken from here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe068.htm

It woulds seem to me that what they were shown is something striking the Earth.

[edge]

LXVI. The Angels of the Waters bidden to hold them in Check.
CHAPTER LXVI.
1. And after that he showed me the angels of punishment who are prepared to come and let loose all the powers of the waters which are beneath in the earth in order to bring judgement and destruction on all who [abide and] dwell on the earth. 2. And the Lord of Spirits gave commandment to the angels who were going forth, that they should not cause the waters to rise but should hold them in check; for those angels were over the powers of the waters. 3. And I went away from the presence of Enoch.


So here is where some of the water comes from.
So in my view this had to be caused by a major impact.
Nothing yet about total destruction.
None of this has happened yet this from their point of view from a vison.

[edge]

LXVII. God's Promise to Noah: Places of Punishment of the Angels and of the Kings.
CHAPTER LXVII.
1. And in those days the word of God came unto me, and He said unto me: 'Noah, thy lot has come up before Me, a lot without blame, a lot of love and uprightness. 2. And now the angels are making a wooden (building), and when they have completed that task I will place My hand upon it and preserve it, and there shall come forth from it the seed of life, and a change shall set in so that the earth will not remain without inhabitant. 3. And I will make fast thy seed before me for ever and ever, and I will spread abroad those who dwell with thee: it shall not be unfruitful on the face of the earth, but it shall be blessed and multiply on the earth in the name of the Lord.'

So now we know who built the ark and who the helpers were.
Now the seeds of life is an interesting concept.
It is God who spreads out those seeds so if you are still wondering about how they got to Australia there it is.
There are more implacations here about the form of the animals when he says seeds.


4. And He will imprison those angels, who have shown unrighteousness, in that burning valley which my grandfather Enoch had formerly shown to me in the west among the mountains of gold and silver and iron and soft metal and tin. 5. And I saw that valley in which there was a great convulsion and a convulsion of the waters. 6. And when all this took place, from that fiery molten metal and from the convulsion thereof in that place, there was produced a smell of sulphur, and it was connected with those waters, and that valley of the angels who had led astray (mankind) burned beneath that land.


Sounds like volcanic activity to me, from getting slammed by a terrestrial body.


11. And those same waters will undergo a change in those days; for when those angels are punished in these waters, these water-springs shall change their temperature, and when the angels ascend, this water of the springs shall change and become cold. 12. And I heard Michael answering and saying: 'This judgement wherewith the angels are judged is a testimony for the kings and the mighty who possess the earth.' 13. Because these waters of judgement minister to the healing of the body of the kings and the lust of their body; therefore they will not see and will not believe that those waters will change and become a fire which burns for ever.
Glaciation begins again, exactly what is expected.

[edge]

I'll put up the rest tommorow night, good night...

[Mirrorglass]

It goes like this if you ask I will answer, then if I ask you will answer.
None of you answered my direct question?
But asked ten more?

Here's the question:
Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…


People have explained why this question is irrelevant to the discussion. But if you insist..

What kind of a situation could possibly demand my death to "keep my atheistic view alive"? I can't change what I believe. It's not a choice. If you show me evidence of God, I will stop being an atheist, but I won't feel bad about it. I have no emotional attachment to atheism. I only believe in it because it makes sense.

If you mean whether or not I would lie about my beliefs to avoid death, then yes, obviously I would. What possible use could my death serve? I don't think there's any afterlife to reward me for being an atheist; I'm an atheist precisely because I don't believe in afterlife. The Christian martyrs died for their fate because they thought they would be rewarded in heaven. I have no such follies.

If, by my death, I could ascertain that other atheists could keep their lives and not be persecuted, then I might consider it. I'd probably still be reluctant, though.

[paximperium]

Here's the question:
Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…
I'd run away and then come back and kill them all.
Why? Was that suppose to be an intelligent question?

[paximperium]

Other opinions vary most Biblical scholars will say 60 to 70 years is the closest that they can figure.
Sure. So who wrote the gospels and which of the writers claimed to have met Jebus?

[jadey]

It goes like this if you ask I will answer, then if I ask you will answer.
None of you answered my direct question?
But asked ten more?

Here's the question:
Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…


If some nutjob came to me and said "renounce atheism or I'll lop off your head", or more likely "accept Christ as your saviour or I'll lop off your head", I'd respond with "sure, I'll say whatever you want if you promise not to lop off my head". However, if my government came to me and made the same statement, I would resist. This would be an attempt to take away my freedom of thought, and that would be worth fighting against and dying for.

If you were to examine the Spanish Inquisition, I'd guess that there were a great many unbelievers/atheists who endured great torture and death to defend their freedom of thought.

You mean to say that you sought the truth and you received a personal revelation that confirmed the christian story?

So, will you answer my question?

[Dancing David]

Well, it's actually decades but heck, I'd love to hear Edge tell us which if any of the Gospel writer's even claimed to have met Jesus in person?

I have to do some reading, 60 years was a minimum and 100 a high end.

[Dancing David]

It goes like this if you ask I will answer, then if I ask you will answer.
None of you answered my direct question?
But asked ten more?

Here's the question:
Would you face death, no wait, die to keep your atheistic view alive or would you run away?
We are talking to die in the most brutal manner.
Heads loped off, speared to death, thrown of a tall building then cut in half ect…

Here’s one of yours’:


Other opinions vary most Biblical scholars will say 60 to 70 years is the closest that they can figure.

Nope, beleifs are a foolish reason to die and many of the martyrs were probably like Fred Phelps.

Death is merited to preserve live and freedom.

So which of the authors of the Gospels actually walked and talked with Yesuah bar Yoseph?

[Dancing David]

LXIV. Vision of the fallen Angels in the Place of Punishment.
CHAPTER LXIV.
1. And other forms I saw hidden in that place. 2. I heard the voice of the angel saying: 'These are the angels who descended to the earth, and revealed what was hidden to the children of men and seduced the children of men into committing sin.'


LXV. Enoch foretells to Noah the Deluge and his own Preservation.
CHAPTER LXV.
1. And in those days Noah saw the earth that it had sunk down and its destruction was nigh. 2. And he arose from thence and went to the ends of the earth, and cried aloud to his grandfather Enoch: and Noah said three times with an embittered voice: Hear me, hear me, hear me.' 3. And I said unto him: 'Tell me what it is that is falling out on the earth that the earth is in such evil plight and shaken, lest perchance I shall perish with it?' 4. And thereupon there was a great commotion, on the earth, and a voice was heard from heaven, and I fell on my face. 5. And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: 'Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping?
Taken from here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe068.htm

It woulds seem to me that what they were shown is something striking the Earth.

So lets see, an oral tradition written down hundreds of years after the alleged facts means that Harry Potter exists (500 years from now).

[TimCallahan]

Edge:

I'm still waiting to hear why you see the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, etc. as Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids, when Gen. 6:1 - 4 clearly says the Nephilim (or "giants in the earth") were the offspring of the sons of God (i.e. angels) and the daughters of men.

[paximperium]

I have to do some reading, 60 years was a minimum and 100 a high end.
Some pretty reliable historians put Mark at the earliest around 30 or so years after Jebus' supposed suicide to appease himself for some mistake he himself made.

[edge]

Yes on many levels, some of it in a negative manner when I wasn't looking through the Christian manner, when testing other religions for the truth they promised.
I found that most other religions have only some of the truth.

Most Christians will have some sort of revelation that made them believe when making up their mind to stay with the Christian belief.

The flood event being that it was misinterpreted, negates what Christ says and negates him from an atheistic view.

In other words if Christ speaks about an event that happened about 4,000 thousand-years-ago, (according to the timeline that has been accepted for years), and science says that there is no evidence of a flood event at this time, then why believe in a god that doesn’t know this?

He made that statement when asked what will be a sign when the end is near, the response was: It will be the same as in Noah’s’ day.

Do you follow this line of thought?

So my last revelation was that man is flawed when these things were written down and as I was mining one day it was shown to me, these things I present to you….


Tim asks:

I'm still waiting to hear why you see the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim, etc. as Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids, when Gen. 6:1 - 4 clearly says the Nephilim (or "giants in the earth") were the offspring of the sons of God (i.e. angels) and the daughters of men.

From the Hebrew :
4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0106.htm

They were there when the first event happened and they are there during and up to the next event. This is what the fossil record shows if you use my time-line.
In-between these events the sons of god come down and do their thing.

The second event happens after the sons of God come down and try to corrupt the gene pool again.
The Nephilim I believe was as far as evolution could take a man, something that came about without God through natural selection, a dead end and corrupt, interbreeding among themselves.

There are reasons for the sons of God to do this.
As speculated by other scholars.

[TimCallahan]

. . . Tim asks:

From the Hebrew :
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0106.htm

They were there when the first event happened and they are there during and up to the next event. This is what the fossil record shows if you use my time-line.
In-between these events the sons of god come down and do their thing.

The second event happens after the sons of God come down and try to corrupt the gene pool again.
The Nephilim I believe was as far as evolution could take a man, something that came about without God through natural selection, a dead end and corrupt, interbreeding among themselves.

There are reasons for the sons of God to do this.
As speculated by other scholars.

Concerning the hilited area, what exactly is your timeline and on what is it based?

Concerning the rest, how- once again - can you get Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids out of the nephilim, offspring of angels and humans? You really haven't explained anything here. Perhaps I should simply write you off as having a barely coherent, totally idiosyncratic view of both the Bible and the fossil record.

[edge]

Concerning the hilited area, what exactly is your timeline and on what is it based?

Concerning the rest, how- once again - can you get Neanderthal / sapiens hybrids out of the Nephilim, offspring of angels and humans? You really haven't explained anything here. Perhaps I should simply write you off as having a barely coherent, totally idiosyncratic view of both the Bible and the fossil record.

It is based on two major events; both are from extraterrestrial bodies one from multiple meteor strikes and the Toba super eruption and there is one strike is in this area, at about 50 thousand-years-ago. The second more than likely a comet that was either solid when it hit or broke up as it hit at about 13 thousand-years-ago.

The first one happened about 40 to 70 thousand-years-ago the second
12 to 13-thousand-years-ago.
There is major evidence for both events taking place with man being there in place at those times along with 3 or four other sub-humans.

Man as we know him appears about 40 to 50 thousand years before both events.

The off spring of the sons of God are totally different beings.
There was more than one thing going on in those times.

The second event happens after the sons of God come down and try to corrupt the gene pool again.
The Nephilim I believe was as far as evolution could take a man, (The Neanderthals), something that came about without God through natural selection, a dead end and corrupt, interbreeding among them, this is as far as evolution could take them.




That line really couldn't corrupt the human line, it was the fallen angles that could.
The Sumerians describe this event perfectly about those that come down with greater knowledge and power.



http://www.champaignchurch.org/images/docs/Bible_Class_Docs/Christian_Evidence/christian_evidence_week_2.pdf



http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/esp_sumer_annunaki14.htm


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_godseden03.htm


These should give you the difference of the two.

I said this before Well I am sure because of research that mostly they are wrong and so lets up-date what it is they were describing and fix it.
Science does this all the time. The time-line…..

Interpretation is everything especially if there is evidence that explains these things in a more correct manner, and using science, how’s that?


Further more when I said that they were more robust that means on the average, and I am sure since we are they and they are us the variations in certain genes are going to show up in the present time.


I read back and a couple of you say your brains don’t have these differences and you seem to imply that therefore you are like you are but that is false it is choice that makes you different in your beliefs, freewill obviously also is a by product of this superior brain.

[edge]

Nephilim (plurale tantum)

A race of humans mentioned in the Old Testament, described as being physically impressive and heroic.
You would have to be heroic to hunt like that.

[edge]

From Enoch: This is what the sons of God did and taught us.

LXIX. The Names and Functions of the (fallen Angels and) Satans: the secret Oath.


CHAPTER LXIX.


2 And behold the names of those angels [and these are their names: the first of them is Samjâzâ, the second Artâqîfâ, and the third Armên, the fourth Kôkabêl, the fifth †Tûrâêl†, the sixth Rûmjâl, the seventh Dânjâl, the eighth †Nêqâêl†, the ninth Barâqêl, the tenth Azâzêl, the eleventh Armârôs, the twelfth Batarjâl, the thirteenth †Busasêjal†, the fourteenth Hanânêl, the fifteenth †Tûrêl†, and the sixteenth Sîmâpêsîêl, the seventeenth Jetrêl, the eighteenth Tûmâêl, the nineteenth Tûrêl, the twentieth †Rumâêl†, the twenty-first †Azâzêl†.

3. And these are the chiefs of their angels and their names, and their chief ones over hundreds and over fifties and over tens].

4. The name of the first Jeqôn: that is, the one who led astray ⌈all⌉ the sons of God, and brought them down to the earth, and led them astray through the daughters of men.

5. And the second was named Asbeêl: he imparted to the holy sons of God evil counsel, and led them astray so that they defiled their bodies with the daughters of men.

6. And the third was named Gâdreêl: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed ⌈the weapons of death to the sons of men⌉ the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the
children of men.

7. And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell on the earth from that day and for evermore.

8. And the fourth was named Pênêmûe: he taught the children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom.

9. And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to eternity and until this day.

10. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation to their good faith with pen and ink.

11. For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power it is consuming me†.

12. And the fifth was named Kâsdejâ: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away, and [the smitings of the soul] the bites of the serpent, and the smitings which befall through the noontide heat, the son of the serpent named Tabââ‘ĕt.

13. And this is the task of Kâsbeêl, the chief of the oath which he showed to the holy ones when he dwelt high above in glory, and its name is Bîqâ.


This is what the Summarians said was taught to them along with a primitive science.

[edge]

In these writings it says we are the hybrids.
The longevity of the early man is explained also.

[Complexity]

In these writings it says we are the hybrids.
The longevity of the early man is explained also.


Explained to your satisfaction, apparently.

Must be a very low threshold.

[jadey]

How about you go one step further, and abandon the book as well? Then you can truly seek for yourself. The moment you accept someone else's special revelation is the moment you give up the search.

I did twice but and seeking for myself reveled the truth, personally.
You do not need four walls.

You mean to say that you sought the truth and you received a personal revelation that confirmed the christian story?

I believe that the below is your answer to my question.

Yes on many levels, some of it in a negative manner when I wasn't looking through the Christian manner, when testing other religions for the truth they promised.
I found that most other religions have only some of the truth.

Most Christians will have some sort of revelation that made them believe when making up their mind to stay with the Christian belief.

The flood event being that it was misinterpreted, negates what Christ says and negates him from an atheistic view.

In other words if Christ speaks about an event that happened about 4,000 thousand-years-ago, (according to the timeline that has been accepted for years), and science says that there is no evidence of a flood event at this time, then why believe in a god that doesn’t know this?

He made that statement when asked what will be a sign when the end is near, the response was: It will be the same as in Noah’s’ day.

Do you follow this line of thought?

So my last revelation was that man is flawed when these things were written down and as I was mining one day it was shown to me, these things I present to you….



You state that you don't need four walls, however you seem to indicate that the only place that you have searched for "truth" is in various religions. Why do you choose to search there, within those walls? It sounds like you were interested in finding out which religion was true. Doesn't that kind of presuppose that one is true?

[edge]

I believe that the below is your answer to my question.

Yes it is.

You state that you don't need four walls, however you seem to indicate that the only place that you have searched for "truth" is in various religions. Why do you choose to search there, within those walls? It sounds like you were interested in finding out which religion was true. Doesn't that kind of presuppose that one is true?

No not really I was reading in through what one particular religion promised to uncover when it actually worked and the circumstances that it came to me was unknown, (How it got in my property), at which time came in handy to read up on because of many reasons, boredom, fatigue sleepless nights caring over 140 pounds on my back, it appeared in my gas mask holder/case that was kept with many other weapons in a weapons locker/room, which was locked up and protected by those in charge, also your own choices of pistols and what ever else you wanted.
It was quite unintentional on my part to even consider trying but it helped and did what it said it could teach. I would have only done that if at the time I lost my faith, which I did to a degree, like most in here have, at that particular time for me though, probably because I was a killing machine and at this time I believed in none of them.

Why else would I be in here to take such abuse?


I decided to test the material to see if it was even true or had any truth to it at all, I wrote a whole story about the incidents that occurred after.

You want to know what the real truth is about transcendental meditation and how it fits to what the bible says about the practice? I never worshiped their idols and such just that particular aspect.
That truth was confirmed to me.
And the only truth they have is there is a soul.
It’s a dangerous practice, that is, if you believe in a soul or spirit and others, to even consider it.
If you practice it you will run into the others.

What I was taught about the rest of knowledge, science in particular I already know, but what’s interesting is that science started with the first men and progressed, but spirituality has always been.

Science can’t do much with spiritually but it can confirm history and events that are related.
Spirituality confirms more; way more, that truth is hard to handle even for me.
That is, that it is real.
I haven’t been frightened by religion to believe in it, but more by what’s there, on that side, the negative aspect that we have been warned about.
But also by the positive, it’s all about heart, and what’s there, only one can read it when that time comes.

One aspect confirms the other, evil and good, in person, in the spirit.

If all we had to write on were clay tablets would you waste the materials as hard as they were to make and write fiction or truths to be passed down, no matter how hard those facts are to believe, why waste it on myths?
Think about that?
History and truth, or myths?
Look up the case history of the Nome Alaska events.
The movie about it is call, The Forth Kind.
These fallen ones are still here.
What Enoch tells us is the worst of the worst are buried and imprisoned, but not all.

[edge]

Explained to your satisfaction, apparently.

Must be a very low threshold.

You'll never know.
Read above.

[Complexity]

You'll never know.
Read above.


Experience has taught me that reading posts of yours that are longer than a few words just aren't worth it.

Those few words may be inadvertantly funny, but the more verbiage you scribble, the more tedious it gets.

[jadey]

If all we had to write on were clay tablets would you waste the materials as hard as they were to make and write fiction or truths to be passed down, no matter how hard those facts are to believe, why waste it on myths?
Think about that?
History and truth, or myths?


So there is no mythology inscribed in clay tablets? There are no monuments with mythological symbols and stories inscribed?

[dio]

History and truth, or myths?
Look up the case history of the Nome Alaska events.
The movie about it is call, The Forth Kind.



edge is so cute. He would believe anything. :)

[Tricky]

edge is so cute. He would believe anything. :)...except that he might be horribly wrong.

[jadey]

If all we had to write on were clay tablets would you waste the materials as hard as they were to make and write fiction or truths to be passed down, no matter how hard those facts are to believe, why waste it on myths?
Think about that?
History and truth, or myths?


So there is no mythology inscribed in clay tablets? There are no monuments with mythological symbols and stories inscribed?

It is also worth noting that incredible burial sites were created and incredible sacrifices made to escort pharoahs/rulers into their afterlives. Inscribing clay tablets pales in comparison. Pyramids were created, boats buried, terra cotta armies created and buried, etc. These people likely believed that these burial sites worked. Does that mean it is true?

[edge]

...except that he might be horribly wrong.

If I am, no foul but if I am not, and you are, then what?

It is also worth noting that incredible burial sites were created and incredible sacrifices made to escort pharoahs/rulers into their afterlives. Inscribing clay tablets pales in comparison. Pyramids were created, boats buried, terra cotta armies created and buried, etc. These people likely believed that these burial sites worked. Does that mean it is true?

It means they knew about an afterlife, but it also means that they were deceived.

How could have known that?
Maybe the ones who in the physical say to them that they are God/Gods? This also explains a lot about when God says to destroy others?

All this is true but we are talking about the first writings the first civilization and they tell us that the fallen ones showed us this along with using science to advance quickly and that's after we betrayed them let alone God.

Enoch also tells us that half of the fallen where on one side of the world and half where on the other side of the world which does show us and tells us why there where pyramids on both sides of the world and how they had such advanced building techniques, as I stated before, even engineers state they would have great difficulty building like that today, let alone man just out of the stone age.

It all makes perfect sense if you move those beginning time lines where the evidence actually kicks in.
There are three different beings in the carving below and part of what the engineers are talking about in the other picture.

[edge]

A religious belief in One God has dominated the thinking of western society for more than a thousand years, leading to considerable difficulties with the concept of flesh-and-blood ‘gods’. However, such an idea did not present any problems to the world’s first known civilization — the Sumerians — who lived alongside these divine rulers and depicted them as human-like beings. The Sumerian scribes and their Akkadian successors inscribed clay tablets with a wealth of information about the gods. One such text, commonly known by the name of its hero, Atra-Hasis, describes the background to the creation of man, when the gods themselves were involved in the painstaking extraction of minerals from Earth:

Taken from here:http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_godseden03.htm

Pictures from here:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/esp_sumer_annunaki14.htm

[edge]

The Sumerians are one of the oldest known civilizations in the world. The lived in southern Mesopotamia (now the land south of Iraq) as early as 5000 to 6000 BC. The Sumerian language is not related to any language on earth today. According to Sumerian legend, they were brought to earth by their god ENKI and settled in the land of ERIDU. Their largest city was UR, with a population of over 24,000. The epic of Gilgamesh is a Sumerian story.

The Sumerians were highly intelligent are are believed to have developed the first written language, tools, the wheel, sail boats and a system of mathematics.



The movie is based on the theory that the missing-persons cases were actually alien abductions. "The Fourth Kind" hit theaters on November 6, 2009 and featured "archival footage" of the "most disturbing evidence of alien abduction ever documented." The 'footage' is that of hypnotherapy sessions between a "Dr. Abigail Tyler," played by Milla Jovovich, and patients who claimed they were abducted. The aliens in the movie spoke the long-lost Sumerian language.



http://www.examiner.com/x-22738-New-Haven-Movie-Examiner~y2009m9d5-The-real-story-behind-The-Fourth-Kind

[dio]

You obviously have difficulties discerning reality from fiction.

The very article you linked completely debunks "the Nome Alaska events".

20 (drunk) guys disappeared or died over a 44 years span.:rolleyes:

The movie is a complete fabrication. There was no "archival footage". There is no Dr. Abigail Tyler. Here is "Dr. Abigail Tyler" from the "archival footage": an actress (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2598903/), edge.

[NoZed Avenger]

I seem to think we have seen this before. The op asserts that people are happier when they are on holiday: some reply that this is not true: the op tacitly concedes that his premise is false, but explains that all those who are not happier are not doing it right. OP then imagines his premise is intact and carries on as if nothing had happened.


Well, yes, that does happen, but only because the OP writers who do that are doing it the wrong way. Now, back to my point which proved OPs are always correct.

[Dancing David]

Yeah and Harry Potter is proof that broomsticks can fly.

[edge]

Jurupa Oak is 13,000 years old No trees are older than this timeline.

But this one Methuselah is 4,800, in Hayfork California my other home town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees

[Complexity]

Jurupa Oak is 13,000 years old No trees are older than this timeline.

But this one Methuselah is 4,800, in Hayfork California my other home town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees


Thank you for sharing this with us!

You must be very special.

[edge]

You obviously have difficulties discerning reality from fiction.

The very article you linked completely debunks "the Nome Alaska events".

20 (drunk) guys disappeared or died over a 44 years span.:rolleyes:



Well that's not my link but if you want to believe the FBI well then go a head.

The movie depicts what happens.
All of the forth kind of encounters or all most all of them are horrifying.

[edge]

Thank you for sharing this with us!

You must be very special.

Yes I am and so are you.

[paximperium]

The movie depicts what happens.
All of the forth kind of encounters or all most all of them are horrifying.You seem to get a whole lot of your knowledge from TV and movies. That does not inspire any confidence in your base of knowledge.

[dio]

The movie depicts what happens.
All of the forth kind of encounters or all most all of them are horrifying.

Waaaaait a minute...

You had pleasant ones too?

Tell us more. :blush:

[Pup]

If I am, no foul but if I am not, and you are, then what?

If you're wrong, what about all those other gods you've been denying? They won't be happy with you.

[edge]

Waaaaait a minute...

You had pleasant ones too?

Tell us more. :blush:

I haven’t experienced forth encounters but many third encounters and even mind-to-mind contact.
If these were the fallen ones then the good ones would be angel visitations.
That would explain many of the encounters even today.
I have documented all of what I know, and made a story out of all of it.

[edge]

If you're wrong, what about all those other gods you've been denying? They won't be happy with you.

None of the lesser gods can do anything for you or at least the ones that may be the fallen.
They can only influence you in the wrong direction.

[edge]

You seem to get a whole lot of your knowledge from TV and movies. That does not inspire any confidence in your base of knowledge.

Some of the stuff I have came from Nova and the other links I presented, as far as movies well they depict what is and has been reported from case evidence from Project Blue Book and the other reports.
I was surprised that at the end of that movie there were a couple of reports of an object that I had seen and in the right part of the country, this was as they rolled the credits.

A huge square object and they described the running lights on it also, which matched what I had witnessed.
So I wasn’t the only one that seen that type. I can’t make the assumption that it was the same one but it could have been.

[Dancing David]

Well that's not my link but if you want to believe the FBI well then go a head.

The movie depicts what happens.
All of the forth kind of encounters or all most all of them are horrifying.



So does Nightmare on Elm Street, that does not make it true.

[Dancing David]

I haven’t experienced forth encounters but many third encounters and even mind-to-mind contact.
If these were the fallen ones then the good ones would be angel visitations.
That would explain many of the encounters even today.
I have documented all of what I know, and made a story out of all of it.

Later, I will not continue discussion.

[dafydd]

I haven’t experienced forth encounters but many third encounters and even mind-to-mind contact.
If these were the fallen ones then the good ones would be angel visitations.
That would explain many of the encounters even today.
I have documented all of what I know, and made a story out of all of it.

With the emphasis on the word story.

[Complexity]

Medical science has advanced - there are some really effective drugs out there.

Please be kind and explore the modern medicine cabinet.

[edge]

With the emphasis on the word story.

Story is just a word; it could have been many other words or any one of them.
Blog, Diary, recording ect....
The scientific evidence of the main point of this thread is backing up scripture where it records the catastrophes.


Scripture also tells us it will happen again and there is nothing that can stop it.

“It will be the same as in the days of Noah”, and at the end of the bible there is more of a description of these events that are to come, something to look forward to, and understand. Wormwood, this is also a lesson on how to survive it.

According to what you have been taught and believe there should be a layer of sand about 2 feet thick on top of our soil right now after twelve thousand years of erosion, but there isn’t, and in a few more years it should on the average add up to about 4 to 6 feet.
There is about a foot on average of humus/black soil depending on where you live that is what twelve thousand years has produced.
There are thick layers of sand right below the very top layer and you can believe they were deposited by the wind or a huge amount of water.
Weather or not it was global is irrelevant.
The timeline in the Bible, about origins is flawed and the dating technique is also flawed as over and over again there is no timeline that is the same, as in one set of tests varies from another with scientists all reporting slightly different dates as much as thousands of years different from others testing those same materials with different out comes in ages, in other words one set of scientists will say that Neanderthals died out around 15,000 years ago and another will say 30,000 years ago. There are three or more reports on when the mammoths died out with one in particular stating 8,000 years ago?

So there are counter dictions after counter dictions.
Ape like creatures that are our ancestors but they lived side by side with us?
Not just one but four, LMAO. So how are we decedents of the same living at that time creatures?
Am I missing something, no DNA that has been tested for some of these skull fragments where these claims arise?

I would have to say your “theories “, are a bit more, lets say out there than mine.
The evidence as presented makes almost perfect sense in the respect of discrepancies that are objectionably to you, granted that Enoch was left out but only by man as far as the information of the deluge is concerned as I pointed out earlier,
(The rest of the information) .

The last thing read as I remembered was that Homo erectus died out about 15 or 50 thousand years ago (some new finding), with one branch of them as long ago as 12 thousand years ago.


Complexity says: Medical science has advanced - there are some really effective drugs out there.

Please be kind and explore the modern medicine cabinet.


So from my point of view, share your meds with me so I can understand your point of view.



What I see is evolution going as far as it possibly can, then some one greater creating a new creation.
Some thing else that was created before us, with more capabilities screwing with the new creation to the point it had to be re-created twice for obvious reasons that you purposefully reject. That old creation of beings was punished.

Gigantopithecus comes to mind as dying out as recently as 3,000 years ago.


Gigantopithecus (from the Greek gigas - γίγας "giant", and pithecus - πίθηκος "ape") is an extinct genus of ape that existed from roughly one million years to as recently as three-hundred thousand years ago,[1] in what is now China, India, and Vietnam, placing Gigantopithecus in the same time frame and geographical location as several hominin species.[2] The fossil record suggests that the Gigantopithecus blacki species were the largest apes that ever lived, standing up to 3 metres (9.8 ft) and weighing up to 540 kilograms (1,200 lb).[1][3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus

Gees that would make five?

To me these are all super apes.

[Complexity]

Get your own drugs, you mooch.

Until you are effectively medicated, please consider reading a good book rather than posting.

You have exceeded your quota for silliness several times over. Don't be greedy.

[dio]

OMGWTFLOL Bigfoot!!
OMGWTFLOL the little guy looks just like me!



Ape like creatures that are our ancestors but they lived side by side with us?

Dunno why you have a problem with this. You do know that the ancestor of all the dogs you see today is the wolf, and the wolf is still around, right?

Oh, dunno why I bother. I'm such a nice guy.

[Elizabeth I]

Ape like creatures that are our ancestors but they lived side by side with us?

Dunno why you have a problem with this. You do know that the ancestor of all the dogs you see today is the wolf, and the wolf is still around, right?

And you might ask him if all the older members of his family (grandparents, aunts, uncles, and parents) dropped dead the day he was born. But that's probably too subtle.

[I Am The Scum]

So... proving God via aliens and Bigfoot. That's a new one for me.

[paximperium]

So... proving God via aliens and Bigfoot. That's a new one for me.
The Unified Theory of Woo.

[edge]

[QUOTE=E(grandparents, aunts, uncles, and parents) dropped dead the day he was born. But that's probably too subtle.[/QUOTE]

Well ya but they look like me or vise versa, none of them look like a ape.


Dogs and wolfs have similar DNA, I don't know if dogs are an improvement?

There was no mention of Bigfoot only Gigantopithecus, but that's neat that you made the connection dio.


Complexity said: Get your own drugs, you mooch.

Don't be greedy.

Wait till you run out!

[Complexity]

Well ya but they look like me or vise versa, none of them look like a ape.


Dogs and wolfs have similar DNA, I don't know if dogs are an improvement?

There was no mention of Bigfoot only Gigantopithecus, but that's neat that you made the connection dio.


Complexity said: Get your own drugs, you mooch.

Don't be greedy.

Wait till you run out!


I already did - had to wean myself off of my antidepressant a few months ago. Not the best situation - hope to be back on in in a few months. Anger is up a bit.

[John Jones]

Dogs and wolfs have similar DNA, I don't know if dogs are an improvement?

Evolution doesn't have any goals, if that's what you are imagining.

[edge]

On that interesting note as far as I remember Indians believe that Big Foot is a spiritual being.

In 1847, Paul Kane reported stories by the native people about skoocooms: a race of cannibalistic wild men living on the peak of Mount St. Helens.[9] The skoocooms appear to have been regarded as supernatural, rather than natural.[9]



Bigfoot proponents Grover Krantz and Geoffrey Bourne believe that Bigfoot could be a relict population of Gigantopithecus. Bourne contends that as most Gigantopithecus fossils are found in China, and as many species of animals migrated across the Bering land bridge, it is not unreasonable to assume that Gigantopithecus might have as well.[58]


Some Bigfoot proponents suggest Neanderthal or Homo erectus to be the creature, but no remains of either species are found in the New World.[64]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot



Complexity I was just joking.
I don't know what that could be like.
I haven't had any problems like that.
All this is just speculation, but a darn good one at least I think so.

[Complexity]

Complexity I was just joking.
I don't know what that could be like.
I haven't had any problems like that.
All this is just speculation, but a darn good one at least I think so.


<SeriousMode>

edge - I honestly think that something is wrong with a person who holds beliefs such as yours.

I suspect that what is wrong is that you are infested with several memes that have the effect of immunizing you to reason while leaving you susceptible to every sort of woo. Your values are skewed.

I don't think we know how to fix this yet. I'm sorry.

Perhaps there is also something wrong with you that could be addressed by medication. I don't know. I know nothing of you apart from what you write in these forums.

I joke about you and medication because I'm not sure what else to do - it is either joke or cry. You let everything into your mind except for the things that you should. You don't appear to know how to evaluate and critique information and beliefs. You shun reason and embrace woo.

You are living far less of a life than you could.

I wish it were otherwise.

</SeriousMode>

[edge]

Evolution doesn't have any goals, if that's what you are imagining.
Well it must, survival of the fittest, I would think.

No I was thinking that it is degradation rather than advancement.
At least in most lines of them, or maybe both an up grade or down grade.
Evolution may come in, in the long run as to which would survive in which circumstance
The Weiner dog or the pit bull?
So I would think the wolf is what has been proven to be the best at least so far.
I don't think that example is a good one, but that's just me.

dio says:
Dunno why you have a problem with this. You do know that the ancestor of all the dogs you see today is the wolf, and the wolf is still around, right?


In a sense you could say we are the dogs God.

I own a hybrid.
He has Wolf, Chow, Shepard, and I think Rottweller.
As a puppy he looked like a hairy Rottweller even the ears.

They breed some good stuff in him but also there are flaws, but the major ones are gone like no weak hips, but an uncontrollable temper against outsiders, he is very beautiful but has skin problems he is the smartest dog I ever owned and can work his face for what ever he wants, we call him face boy when he is in that mode.
So I don’t know.
There is a picture of him when he was a puppy in my profile.

[edge]

Don't worry I am skeptical of many things, but some I can say are true, I know that it is hard to believe.
I am no longer an atheist.
What you call reason I understand completely also.
There are two major points of reason that I believe in differently about the Noah story.
One is the sand and two is the time-line being off, it depends on how you look at it, like I said, if they said sand storm I would believe science totally then.

But it would be in agreement with what was written, if that were the case.

[edge]

Odie today or close to today.

[John Jones]

Well it must, survival of the fittest, I would think.

.

You're wrong. Evolution of species does not have a goal. It has only an outcome.

Creationists/IDers attack modern evolution theory with premises that are flat wrong.

Evolution has no plan. Evolution needs no plan. It's a process wherein populations obtain a reproductive advantage or they don't.

[John Jones]

...What you call reason I understand completely also.

...



No you don't.

[edge]

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Well do it in reverse when I get back, ( timelines) .


John Jones
Survival of the fittest is an out come?
In those verses I see evolution, those first days.
Animals first then Man.
It's how you read the evidence.
Proof is being found all the time through archeology also.

In bold above, the first day after the big bang.

space and matter, from the first line, " God created the heaven and the earth " .

The planet we live on is created later.

No 24 hour days yet.


Be back in the morning

[tsig]

Experience has taught me that reading posts of yours that are longer than a few words just aren't worth it.

Those few words may be inadvertantly funny, but the more verbiage you scribble, the more tedious it gets.

Yes if you're going to be wrong and ignorant at least be short about it like I do.

[tsig]

Get your own drugs, you mooch.



Hey man, I thought you guys, like, always shared you know.

[tsig]

So... proving God via aliens and Bigfoot. That's a new one for me.

That's a right unholy trinity.

[edge]

Hey man, I thought you guys, like, always shared you know.

Ya back in the day.

[edge]

Basically evolution is in there and the progression of living things, animals and sea creatures came first wich would support that.
Then man is made after this and I believe that Cro-Magnon was it.

[Complexity]

Basically evolution is in there and the progression of living things, animals and sea creatures came first wich would support that.
Then man is made after this and I believe that Cro-Magnon was it.


:alien009:

[dafydd]

Well ya but they look like me or vise versa, none of them look like a ape.


Dogs and wolfs have similar DNA, I don't know if dogs are an improvement?

There was no mention of Bigfoot only Gigantopithecus, but that's neat that you made the connection dio.


Complexity said: Get your own drugs, you mooch.

Don't be greedy.

Wait till you run out!

Now go and have a nice lie down.

[Tricky]

In bold above, the first day after the big bang.

space and matter, from the first line, " God created the heaven and the earth " .

The planet we live on is created later.

No 24 hour days yet.


Be back in the morning
But the bible calls it a day. Why would it do that? Is God deliberately trying to confuse us? Why did he call the moon a light if it's actually only a reflector?

This jibes very well with primative people who had no knowledge of the universe, but for an omniscient being, well, it makes Him look pretty damn stupid.

So why not go with the obvious? Primative people create primative myths. As we learn more, those myths are replaced with real knowledge. To try to twist the myths into pretending they are something that knew the real knowledge but chose not to reveal it is a fools quest.

[John Jones]

Well do it in reverse when I get back, ( timelines) .


John Jones
Survival of the fittest is an out come?
In those verses I see evolution, those first days.
Animals first then Man.
It's how you read the evidence.
Proof is being found all the time through archeology also.

In bold above, the first day after the big bang.

space and matter, from the first line, " God created the heaven and the earth " .

The planet we live on is created later.

No 24 hour days yet.


Be back in the morning


Can anyone translate that into 21st century English?

[Resume]

Can anyone translate that into 21st century English?

Yes.

Blah-blah. Blah-blah-blah.

[Complexity]

Can anyone translate that into 21st century English?


No.

[dafydd]

I get the feeling that edge is a machine,a random word generator.

[edge]

I get the feeling that edge is a machine,a random word generator.

That a way, to rationalize away, what you fear.
Some times when I come in here it’s very early in the morning and I might not be as clear as you would like but hey what the hey.

Now as far as aliens, demons are as alien as you can get and they are out there, whatever you want to call them.

Even your most renown scientist have an opinion on this subject because they are genius and can see through science, but have no inspiration on the subject of God, so there fore can’t make the same leaps and bounds that I can.

I have much more to say about this and I have very little time to be in here.

I will try to give you a summery of all the evidence I have gathered and all that is associated in links and movies, and it will be a great amount to show and do all at once.
I try to write plainly so all can get what I say in here.

But first to address the post that actually says anything of pertinent value.

But the bible calls it a day. Why would it do that? Is God deliberately trying to confuse us? Why did he call the moon a light if it's actually only a reflector?

This jibes very well with primative people who had no knowledge of the universe, but for an omniscient being, well, it makes Him look pretty damn stupid.

So why not go with the obvious? Primative people create primative myths. As we learn more, those myths are replaced with real knowledge. To try to twist the myths into pretending they are something that knew the real knowledge but chose not to reveal it is a fools quest.

Before this planet had it’s day it was talking about Gods days, now how they new that is irrelevant but they did get that generalized knowledge from somewhere.
The funny thing is it is in accordance to what the modern knowledge is/has discovered, so the got the moon wrong it still lights our nights.

Right after we gained the knowledge of Good and evil, which I believe is science, God apparently left us to our own survival and understanding. Probably for over 50,000 years according to my time-line.

How can a new creation have all the knowledge of the universe at this time?
We learn as we go, and what is written is there were others teaching us simple science all to lead us to where we are at today. Not all of it I am sure we learned some of it on our own, being that the others were advanced beings they probably knew where to interject some of the knowledge we gained to their ends knowing where it would takes us and I can see where it has taken us as far as destructive and immorality.

A fools quest is trying to show you how limited your skeptical thinking is especially if you do not see it for all of what they are writing down in their primitive way and understanding.

Those first people knew that it was older, (the earth), as I have pointed out.

They were describing Gods days first, then the days we are familiar with.


This part is when the days of the Earth can be counted, as we know them:
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.



Up until this point millions of yeas passed, after this day many more pass with this next line that agrees with evolution.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

My bolding:
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


I see nothing here that goes against evolution but actually agrees with our discoveries.
I would say they knew more than we give them credit for, where they even got this much is unknown.

They didn’t have all the terminology that we have today, they used what they had, earth, ground =matter, heavens =space, then they used it again since it is what it is, earth=earth, dirt, matter, space and heaven the same.
If you understand this then it starts making some sense.


Man and woman are created in the 6th day and on the seventh God rests, and still is.

This is the first creation of man . At about 100,000 thousand years ago.
Not just a pair of them.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over….
Them being plural.

Same here:
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Where did Cain find his wife?

[edge]

Even your most renown scientist have an opinion on this subject because they are genius and can see through science, but have no inspiration on the subject of God, so therefore can’t make the same leaps and bounds that I can.

THE aliens are out there and Earth had better watch out, at least according to Stephen Hawking. He has suggested that extraterrestrials are almost certain to exist — but that instead of seeking them out, humanity should be doing all it that can to avoid any contact.

The suggestions come in a new documentary series in which Hawking, one of the world’s leading scientists, will set out his latest thinking on some of the universe’s greatest mysteries.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/space/article7107207.ece

[TimCallahan]

Edge:

You could probably clear things up as to your position regarding the Bible, evolution, the fossil record, etc., if you could lay out a time-line answering listing the following:

1) Age of the Universe.

2) Age of the Earth

3) Origin of life (when and by what means, i.e. natural, divine fiat, some mix of the two)

4) Origin of the earliest hominids (such as Australopithecus)

5) Origin of the earliest fully modern humans

It would also be helpful if you could clarify what you believe in, concerning origins, because, frankly, some of your previous posts were a bit confusing and even somewhat incoherent. Are you a creationist (young or old earth) or a theistic evolutionist?

[X]

Even your most renown scientist have an opinion on this subject because they are genius and can see through science, but have no inspiration on the subject of God, so there fore can’t make the same leaps and bounds that I can.



Bolding mine.

No more need be said...