President of Poland "killed in plane crash"

[Duffy Moon]

From BBC news:

"A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.
Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash near Smolensk, and a regional governor was quoted as saying there were no survivors.
Polish officials said Mr Kaczynski was on board along with his wife Maria and several senior government figures.
They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when the Soviets killed thousands of Poles."

[Childlike Empress]

Wow, this is heavy. Over hundred people dead, 88 high-ranking officials including the heads of the army and the central bank, several parliamentarians and clerics.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100410/158508424.html

The 1940 massacre by the Soviet secret police of thousands Polish officers seized by the Red Army, when it invaded the country in the first days of World War Two in September 1939, has become the most painful page in relations between the two Slavic nations.

Earlier this month, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk jointly paid homage to the dead in the Katyn forest near Smolensk, the scene of the tragedy.

Kazcynski was one of the strongest critics of post-Soviet Russia in Poland, suspecting Moscow of imperial ambitions. He advocated deploying in Poland elements of U.S. missile shield - a plan, which has provoked Russia's fury but was later scrapped by new U.S. President Barack Obama.

Head of foreign relations committee in the Russian parliament's lower house, Konstantin Kosachyov, described Kaczynski's death as a "tragedy" regardless of his political views.

"This is a huge tragedy for the whole Polish people no matter what political views he had ... we mourn with the Polish people," he told RIA Novosti.

"Katyn is claiming new victims," he added.

[Safe-Keeper]

Avery is going to have a field day...

[Ryokan]

Well, it is quite suspicious. But I doubt there's any foul play, the Russians don't really have anything to gain from killing that many people just to stop the Polish president from going to a memorial.

[theprestige]

Well, it is quite suspicious. But I doubt there's any foul play, the Russians don't really have anything to gain from killing that many people just to stop the Polish president from going to a memorial.
Your reasoning might make more sense if the only thing Polish presidents ever did was go to memorials.

I mean, it's not like John Hinckley really had anything to gain from killing Ronald Reagan just to stop him from leaving a speaking engagement at the Washington Hilton Hotel, right?

[ponderingturtle]

Your reasoning might make more sense if the only thing Polish presidents ever did was go to memorials.

I mean, it's not like John Hinckley really had anything to gain from killing Ronald Reagan just to stop him from leaving a speaking engagement at the Washington Hilton Hotel, right?

So you are saying they did this to impress Jodie Foster?

[applecorped]

:(

[DC]

"killed in plane crash"

why the ""?

[Duffy Moon]

why the ""?

The site that I initially saw the story on was reporting simply that the plane had come down, no word on casualties.

My thread title was based on that, rather than the more detailed report that I actually C&Ped.



I must say I was shocked to hear the death toll.

I'd assumed it was a smaller aircraft, like a Learjet or something.

[theprestige]

So you are saying they did this to impress Jodie Foster?
I don't think anybody did anything. I'm saying that reasons for killing presidents have very little to do with interrupting their current itinerary (and probably very little to do with how many other people might be caught in the crossfire).

[ddt]

I must say I was shocked to hear the death toll.

I'd assumed it was a smaller aircraft, like a Learjet or something.

Yep, the headline is also a bit misleading. It's more like "Polish president and 100 other top officials killed".

To be precise: the death toll is 96.

The Dutch 8 o'clock news mentioned the type of aircraft, a Tu-154, has a bad track record. Of 1000 planes, 30 have crashed with, IIRC, 800 casualties.

They also speculated whether Kaczynski might have bullied the pilot into landing at Smolensk instead of going to Minsk, because he was already running late for the Katyn memorial. They noticed it certainly would be in character for him to do so.

ETA: in support of that theory, wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash) mentions:
In 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land the aircraft in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war.

[Thunder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passengers_in_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash

what can one say, regarding such an incredible tragedy?

I mean, they were going to mourn jointly with the Russians, the horrible Soviet Katyn Massacre, and this happens.

I feel nothing but utter sorrow for the Polish people. I don't know how my own country would deal with such a monumental disaster.

:(

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm in total shock. Incredible. Unbelievable. Jawdropping.

[Kevin_Lowe]

They also speculated whether Kaczynski might have bullied the pilot into landing at Smolensk instead of going to Minsk, because he was already running late for the Katyn memorial. They noticed it certainly would be in character for him to do so.

My understanding was that the airport was closed due to fog, and the pilot made multiple unsuccessful attempts to land before the fatal attempt. I'm sure this won't stop conspiracy theorists though.

[ddt]

My understanding was that the airport was closed due to fog, and the pilot made multiple unsuccessful attempts to land before the fatal attempt. I'm sure this won't stop conspiracy theorists though.

Yes. BTW, "closed" is relative: the pilot has the last word, and when he says he is going to land, he is going to land. But I agree, it's obvious that the ground personnel advised very very strongly against landing. So the question that remains is: who on the plane decided to land anyway. Does anyone know if the black box(es) give info on conversations between crew or between crew and passengers?
ETA: duh yes, the cockpit voice recorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_voice_recorder).

[Childlike Empress]

Alexander Bastrykin, head of Russia's Investigative Committee, on Sunday reported to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin citing preliminary results that the deciphered records confirmed the absence of technical problems with the plane.

"The pilot was informed about complex weather conditions and, nevertheless, made a decision on landing," Bastrykin said. source (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100411/158523696.html)


They also speculated whether Kaczynski might have bullied the pilot into landing at Smolensk instead of going to Minsk, because he was already running late for the Katyn memorial. They noticed it certainly would be in character for him to do so.


I heard this too, it sounds plausible. The whole event was planned in a hurry, a special Kaczynski ego event countering the Putin/Tusk event. It seems like Kaczynski has literally beheaded his country with his idiocy. Absolutely absurd that all those people flew on the same plane. Military leaders killed (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2490324/posts):

The fallen officers of the General Staff of the Polish Armed Forces:

1. Gen. Gagor /read: gon'gor/ , The Supreme Commander of the Polish Armed Forces
2. Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI - The Operational Commander of the Polish Armed Forces
3. Gen. Andrzej BLASIK /buasheek/- The Commander of the Polish Air Force
4. Gen. Tadeusz BUK - The Commander of the Polish Ground Forces
5. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI The Commander of the Polish Special Forces (e.g. supreme commander of GROM)
6. Admiral Andrzej KARWETA - The Commander of the Polish Navy
7. Gen. Kazimierz GILARSKI - The Commander of the Capital of Warsaw Army

[Thunder]

how do you put that many important people...on one damn plane!!

it was a flying disaster in the making....even if it didnt crash.

never put all your eggs in one basket.

[GreyICE]

Huh, this really needs updating of an old joke.

"Why does the new Polish government have glass-bottomed planes?"\
"To see the old Polish government."

It looks like one man's ego combined with simply the stupidest idea I've ever heard (seriously, the President and VP never ride in the same plane, nevermind all of the top government officials) has managed to leave his country leaderless and confused.

This idiocy has taken out the President, the head of the opposition party, several ministers, the next presidential candidate, and 6 of the 7 chiefs of the military. As well as quite a few other important people, and their bodyguards, and lastly and leastly the head of the National Security Bureau (who is the only person I will say deserved to die. Any Security head who allows a Charlie Foxtrot like that plane ride is a rampaging incompetent).

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

In American terms, this would be as if Barack Obama went to Pearl Harbor for a memorial ceremony commemorating the anniversary of it, got on a plane with Michelle, Michael Steele, half of the Cabinet, Hillary Clinton, several of the most important Senators and Representatives, Sarah Palin, John Edward, John McCain, the Secretary of Defense, the heads of the Army, Navy and Air Force, Nancy Pelosi, the head of the Federal Reserve System, Rosa Parks, several survivors of Pearl Harbor, several relatives of Pearl Harbor victims, Ben Affleck and Rick Warren and they all died.

What an idiotic idea, how could anyone be so stupid, how could they have such a terrible idea, what were they thinking-

Wait.

Actually, that might not be such a bad idea.

Keep Nancy Pelosi, Ben Affleck, Sarah Palin, Rick Warren and Michael Steele on that plane. :D

[ddt]

Poland Is Not Yet Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_Is_Not_Yet_Lost)? ;)

[Thunder]

In American terms, this would be as if Barack Obama went to Pearl Harbor for a memorial ceremony commemorating the anniversary of it, got on a plane with Michelle, Michael Steele, half of the Cabinet, Hillary Clinton, several of the most important Senators and Representatives, Sarah Palin, John Edward, John McCain, the Secretary of Defense, the heads of the Army, Navy and Air Force, Nancy Pelosi, the head of the Federal Reserve System, Rosa Parks, several survivors of Pearl Harbor, several relatives of Pearl Harbor victims, Ben Affleck and Rick Warren and they all died.


Not...exactly. The President of Poland is mostly a ceremonial title. However, the Dep. Foreign Minister and the heads of the military, were indeed highly important individuals. This would be as if we lost our VP, our UnderSecretary of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all the heads of the armed forces. still, it would be a monumental tragedy.

[Foolmewunz]

I thought I dreamed this. It's just too unreal that any structure, whether a business or a government, would put that many of its big fish on one flight. Heck, we don't let more than two (of thirty) senior execs go on the same flight!

[Thunder]

i hope all countries will see this tragedy, and never repeat it, by putting soo many political and military VIPs on one plane.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Not...exactly. The President of Poland is mostly a ceremonial title.

Yes, I know that. The POTUS has both the ceremonial role and the head-of-state role, while Poland and many other nations split the role.

Still, Lech Kaczynski did do many of the things that President Obama does for us.

So I think the analogy is valid.

[aviolet4u]

I have to go on 6 planes myself this summer...so you could imagine the excitement I feel reading these news stories.

I feel so bad, I do get nervous for Obama. Heck Bush went smoothly through the 8 years with only 2 shoes flying his way after all he did.

[Darth Rotor]

Huh, this really needs updating of an old joke.

"Why does the new Polish government have glass-bottomed planes?"\
"To see the old Polish government."

It looks like one man's ego combined with simply the stupidest idea I've ever heard (seriously, the President and VP never ride in the same plane, nevermind all of the top government officials) has managed to leave his country leaderless and confused.

This idiocy has taken out the President, the head of the opposition party, several ministers, the next presidential candidate, and 6 of the 7 chiefs of the military. As well as quite a few other important people, and their bodyguards, and lastly and leastly the head of the National Security Bureau (who is the only person I will say deserved to die. Any Security head who allows a Charlie Foxtrot like that plane ride is a rampaging incompetent).
FWIW:

As I understand their parliamentary system, the president of Poland isn't the same sort of political person as the President of the US: he is the head of state, not head of government, whereas the US President is both. Granted, he's a very important governmental leader, but this isn't the quite the blow a crash of Air Force One would land on the US

The PM of Poland, like the Chancellor of Germany in their system, is more important, politically and influentially, than the President.

@ parky: agreed, the loss of the across the board talent and experience is rather bad for Poland. Sorry to see what was probably a preventable crash take so many leaders with it.

:(

DR

[Ysidro]

I have to go on 6 planes myself this summer...so you could imagine the excitement I feel reading these news stories.



Cheer up! You're still more likely to die in a car crash before you step on the first plane!

[ThatSoundAgain]

It is reported here that there were actually rules in place against that many VIPs in one plane. Sadly, it was not unlike Kaczynski to disregard such rules.

[aviolet4u]

Cheer up! You're still more likely to die in a car crash before you step on the first plane!


thanks I feel much better:p