Asleep at the wheel….of a submarine!!!!

[The Man]

Has anyone heard about this yet?



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/07/party-sub-crash-costing-t_n_528521.html


Now I’m one for a relaxed work environment. However, onboard a submarine is one of the places I’d be inclined to be in favor of very strict working conditions.

So not having been in the military myself, the question is (or questions are)…

Is this the type of environment you might be comfortable in?

(myself I’d probably request a transfer to a different ship)

Is this something you have seen (or similar) before (and I don’t just mean in military)? A rather lax working environment that you feel is or was not appropriate for the conditions.

Who bears the responsibility for the lapse of attention? Certainly the captain to the major extent, but what of the officers and crew, can or should they be held accountable for just basically going along with the program onboard?

Certainly anyone with submarine experience I’d be interested to hear your perspective on this incident and the conditions onboard the USS Hartford.

[Soapy Sam]

Thank god they weren't smoking. Someone might have died.

[DC]

submarines have wheels? :D

[Fishstick]

Usually when i'm sleepy and driving I'll crack open a window so the cool air keeps me awake. Surely you can do the same thing on a sub.

[JimBenArm]

Okay, there's a few things wrong with this report.

First, the Navigator is not going to spend all his time in Control. He stands watch as OOD along with other officers, and deserves some down time when possible. The OOD on watch is trained to handle surfacing and submerging and coming to periscope depth, the Nav doesn't need to be there. So he was listening to his iPod. Big woop. Although he'll probably hang anyway.

Secondly, anyone ever stand watch on a deployed sub? Here's what happens. You spend 6 hours on-watch, 12 hours off-watch. When you're on watch, it can be 6 hours of pure monotony, especially if you're on patrol. After a couple of weeks of this, sitting in front of a console with meters that haven't budged from the readings you took last week, try to sit there and not have informal conversations. Try not to slump in your seat, get comfortable. Yeah. It's very easy to lob stuff like this at others when you don't actually have to do the job. When you're "making turns for 4 knots" constantly for three weeks, the highlight of the day can be when you get to bump the speed in the turbine generators up because it drifted off 60hz. Want to get a taste of this? Get a dining room chair, set it in front of your oven, stare at it for a week. There you go. Wonder any of us ever stayed awake sometimes, with all the "stimulation", plus hours of sleep deprivation, since after your 6 hour watch you got to do maintenance, training, cleaning and who knows what else? Oh, and it would never fail. If you had midwatch, it was guaranteed that you would get off watch, do all this other crap, get to where you were ready for some rack-time, and BINGO! Drills would start, and you would be lucky if you got two hours sleep before your next watch. I've stood watch where I've had 4 hours sleep in the last 60. Oh, yeah, I was alert. You betcha.
Another thing that just jumped out at me was "No one looked out the periscope". WTF? They were coming up, not running on the surface. The scope would not have been raised until they got to PD. Before that, it would be useless, as there wouldn't have been enough light to see anything.

Now, don't get me wrong. There were major lapses in the operation of this boat that caused it to collide with the surface ship. But a lot of the stuff in this article was just ignorant nonsense, by people who live to make others look bad.

[The Man]

Thank god they weren't smoking. Someone might have died.

Well I imagine after the crash one (or both) of the ships might have been smoking a bit.



submarines have wheels? :D

There you go, that’s the whole problem, no way to steer the darn things. Now if they had just put some of those wheels on the outside of the ship?



Usually when i'm sleepy and driving I'll crack open a window so the cool air keeps me awake. Surely you can do the same thing on a sub.


Yeah, but then everyone around complains that your music is too loud and you get pulled over. Of course someone in the back always complains that now they’re cold and you have to turn up the heat. Next thing you know your reactor (that you’ve already cranked up to 115% to cook some bacon and eggs on it) goes critical.

[Careyp74]

The article makes it seem like the watchstanders steering the sub fell asleep, but I don't think that happened. The Chief of the Watch is right there to ensure that they don't. More likely, it is the Radiomen who were found asleep. When submerged, they have nothing to do, which would also help alleviate the situation of being caught with a radio playing music in the radio room.

Steering with one hand, with your shoes off, slouched. This is the equivalent of not having your hands at 10 and 2. Shoes are not necessary for operating the helm, because there are no brakes, and absolutely no need to go anywhere besides in front of the helm. Slouching? Try driving for six hours in the upright position, with both hands out in front of you, with nothing but gages to look at.


First, the Navigator is not going to spend all his time in Control.

They made it sound like the sub was in maneuvering watch, in which case the Nav would have been required to be in the Control Room. If the boat was as bad as they say it was, I could believe that he wasn't. If he was not in Control during the collision, he should have been removed also.

"Sonar operators, in charge of monitoring the ships near the submarine, were chatting informally for most of that hour. One of the sailors inserted a false sonar contact into the system so "he could use up all of his sonar trackers for amusement."

OK, this sounds like a big one. I don't know how many trackers the Sonar system on the Hartford uses at a time, but if you are at max, minus one, there are a lot of freakin contacts out there. To then add one more for amusement is crazy. I could see the idea as being "hey, never had a full contact list before, lets fill er up!"

ETA: well, not sure about maneuvering watch, they were still submerged during the accident.

[Modified]

Based on what JimBenArm said, it sounds like the system, like those of many organizations, undervalues sleep. A sub should be run in such a way that nobody on it is likely to ever be sleep deprived.

[GreyICE]

It sounds like a bad time for those behaviors, but in general, that's about what I expect on a sub. It's BORING. You're moving at no miles per hour in the middle of ocean (ocean is like space - its big and empty).

The guy inserting a sonar contact sounds like he actually might be doing his job. If you don't get sonar contacts at least infrequently, you surely are going to get very bored, and obviously a routine to insert false 'contacts' for training and testing exists (you don't program that from scratch).

[DC]

ocean is like space - its big and empty

not yet, but industrial fishing is doing its best :D

[king catfish]

Based on what JimBenArm said, it sounds like the system, like those of many organizations, undervalues sleep. A sub should be run in such a way that nobody on it is likely to ever be sleep deprived.


My military experience (nothing like sub duty) supports this assertion. I was infantry, and in my unit to admit being tired or needing sleep was tantamount to admitting you wear frilly pink panties. :D

[JimBenArm]

I can't speak with any authority on what went on with the Sonar Girls in Sonar. I was a Nuke, so all my experience was in the engineering spaces. So I'm not even going to hazard a guess.

[theprestige]

Based on what JimBenArm said, it sounds like the system, like those of many organizations, undervalues sleep. A sub should be run in such a way that nobody on it is likely to ever be sleep deprived.

I can't speak with any authority on what went on with the Sonar Girls in Sonar. I was a Nuke, so all my experience was in the engineering spaces. So I'm not even going to hazard a guess.
I dunno. Since Roman times, military experts have recommended a policy of "train the way you fight, and fight the way you train".

It's a safe bet that war doesn't include a generous sleep schedule, and that any competent enemy would ruthlessly and murderously exploit an army whose soldiers had been trained to expect 8 hours of sleep out of every 24 just to do their jobs.

[Careyp74]

I was on a sub for almost 5 of my 6 years in. When underway, the schedule is pretty accommodating for sleep, you just had to get used to the 18 hour cycles. I would sleep almost 6 hours of those 18 hours, which equated to 8 hours a day.

The guy inserting a sonar contact sounds like he actually might be doing his job. If you don't get sonar contacts at least infrequently, you surely are going to get very bored, and obviously a routine to insert false 'contacts' for training and testing exists (you don't program that from scratch).

One of the sailors inserted a false sonar contact into the system so "he could use up all of his sonar trackers for amusement."

This means that he had plenty of contacts to track. If there was nothing to track, his trackers would not be in use. Intentionally adding contacts to an almost full list would just create more confusion to Control, who has to make sure that the Sub steers clear of all those contacts.

This action also gives an impression that the on watch sonar men are not taking their job seriously. Also, admitting to doing it for amusement is just stupidity.

ETA

I dunno. Since Roman times, military experts have recommended a policy of "train the way you fight, and fight the way you train".

It's a safe bet that war doesn't include a generous sleep schedule, and that any competent enemy would ruthlessly and murderously exploit an army whose soldiers had been trained to expect 8 hours of sleep out of every 24 just to do their jobs.

It is a little different when the enemy is a submarine, there is no way to take advantage of the amount of sleep given to individual members of a submarine. Besides, even in times when we were on high alert, most everyone was able to get enough rest.

[Dragonrock]

My military experience (nothing like sub duty) supports this assertion. I was infantry, and in my unit to admit being tired or needing sleep was tantamount to admitting you wear frilly pink panties. :D

My time in the army was just the opposite. NCOs would chase us down to make sure we slept. You would get 8 hours. They may not be all at once, but you'd get 'em.

Food, on the other hand, was treated almost reverentially. If even a single soldier missed a meal and it was the fault of the unit commander then someone's losing their job. The army takes the "an army travels on its stomach" thing seriously.

I worked in a joint service unit so I dealt with navy personnel. It really blew me away how sailors attitudes seemed the same as they were back in the days of wooden ships and gunpowder cannons. They still believed that lack of sleep was something you could push through if you were man enough.

[Dragonrock]

I dunno. Since Roman times, military experts have recommended a policy of "train the way you fight, and fight the way you train".

It's a safe bet that war doesn't include a generous sleep schedule, and that any competent enemy would ruthlessly and murderously exploit an army whose soldiers had been trained to expect 8 hours of sleep out of every 24 just to do their jobs.

You can't train yourself to sleep less. You can spend some time learning how to deal with lack of sleep, but if you want a healthy and effective military then they need to get 8 hours of rack time much more often then not.

[The Fool]

Navy vessel hits other ship or hits land.......someone loses thier job. Its a law of Physics.

[PhantomWolf]

Sounds a little like it was crewed by the US Navy's equivilent of my students.

[The Man]

In my job I often spend hours on end sitting in front of a screen that doesn’t change much looking for, well, certain changes. Fortunately, I have the advantage of using that time to also post here. Unfortunately, today wasn’t one of those days. I can certainly see (and have experienced) the problems of getting bored and sleepy at those times, as my coworkers also do.




They made it sound like the sub was in maneuvering watch, in which case the Nav would have been required to be in the Control Room. If the boat was as bad as they say it was, I could believe that he wasn't. If he was not in Control during the collision, he should have been removed also.

"Sonar operators, in charge of monitoring the ships near the submarine, were chatting informally for most of that hour. One of the sailors inserted a false sonar contact into the system so "he could use up all of his sonar trackers for amusement."

OK, this sounds like a big one. I don't know how many trackers the Sonar system on the Hartford uses at a time, but if you are at max, minus one, there are a lot of freakin contacts out there. To then add one more for amusement is crazy. I could see the idea as being "hey, never had a full contact list before, lets fill er up!"

ETA: well, not sure about maneuvering watch, they were still submerged during the accident.

I think those are the important issues Careyp74. Certianly if you do crash into a surface ship then you are either running on or close to the surface or, as JimBenArm notes, surfacing, an important time to be aware of surface contacts. Also if your surmise is correct, as the statements seem to indicate, there was quite a bit of surface (or other) traffic to be aware of and perhaps navigate around (particularly when surfacing). I’m wondering if also someone might have mistaken a real contact for the false contact. If there were inadequate procedures and policies (not specifically just on board the Hartford) I imagine the Navy will hang as many of the crew and officers from the yard arms as they can while painting the submarine as some freak anomaly “party sub” requiring the institution of new procedures and policies to try to address such ‘anomalies’.

The article also remakes to the navigator taking an “exam” at the time, but does not specify if it was something of some personal choice or some exam instituted and required by the Navy. Don’t you usually have some type of monitor when taking an exam?

Also I’m glad to hear those with submarine experience chiming in on this, thanks.

[Careyp74]

Certianly if you do crash into a surface ship then you are either running on or close to the surface or, as JimBenArm notes, surfacing, an important time to be aware of surface contacts.

I believe that the boat was at periscope depth. I will look into that more.


Also if your surmise is correct, as the statements seem to indicate, there was quite a bit of surface (or other) traffic to be aware of and perhaps navigate around (particularly when surfacing). I’m wondering if also someone might have mistaken a real contact for the false contact. If there were inadequate procedures and policies (not specifically just on board the Hartford) I imagine the Navy will hang as many of the crew and officers from the yard arms as they can while painting the submarine as some freak anomaly “party sub” requiring the institution of new procedures and policies to try to address such ‘anomalies’.

Well, I will admit that I hadn't thought of the idea of the surface ship being taken for the fake contact. Possible, but I think though that would have come out in the investigation, and the news had so much other information, they would have likely known that.


The article also remakes to the navigator taking an “exam” at the time, but does not specify if it was something of some personal choice or some exam instituted and required by the Navy. Don’t you usually have some type of monitor when taking an exam?

Also I’m glad to hear those with submarine experience chiming in on this, thanks.

I was not an officer, so I cannot say for sure, but I do not know of any exams that the Nav would be required to take while at sea. I never knew of an officer to take PACE courses, the military version of Phoenix University, either. Perhaps JBA could give us more insight? Is there any written exams for officers, like during Readiness examinations, like the TRE of ORSE?

The idea that I get from all of this is, Commanders can either be lax, or strict. The lax ones take a gamble that the boat may one day hit something, and they lose their commission. If they get through it then it was smooth sailing. It is fairly common for subs to hit something. This isn't the first time that the Hartford has, either. Buoys, fishing boats, lobster pots, the ground, other subs, surface ships, all have been hit in the past.

I actually had three different Commanders. All three were strict. All three made rounds to the various departments keeping an eye on things. The other officers didn't care if the Helm was slouching in his seat, or if the Radioman of the Watch was down in Crews Mess (the dining hall) watching a movie with off-watch personnel. But the CO was not one to turn a blind eye.

[Careyp74]

yes, the boat was at periscope depth. I think the idea is that the sub loses a lot of its maneuverability on the surface, and since 'rules of the road' says it has to give way to most of the other large ships crossing the straight at that time, the more maneuverability it has the better.

When at PD, many of the sonar arrays are useless. The cavitation from the Periscope and other antennae cause interference to the side arrays in the sail. The boat relies heavily on the periscope, and Electronic Surveillance at this time. Frequent sweeps of the area by the Officer of the Deck will update the contacts. The report stated that this was not being done.

[shadron]

I dunno. Since Roman times, military experts have recommended a policy of "train the way you fight, and fight the way you train".

Doing that with sleep is just stupid. You cannot get used to lack of sleep; you may learn some coping skills, but you'll never have the same ability to concentrate or stay alert. You cannot grow immunity to lack of sleep.

It's a safe bet that war doesn't include a generous sleep schedule, and that any competent enemy would ruthlessly and murderously exploit an army whose soldiers had been trained to expect 8 hours of sleep out of every 24 just to do their jobs.

Sure it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that they keep more people on alert than necessary when there is a war on. Doing so will just lead to a complete collapse when push comes to shove.

How does one become accustomed to 8 hours sleep? It has been my experience that I can accustom myself to getting up at almost any hour as long as I go to bed at the right time. Come the weekends, it's as long as I can keep the noise down.

[The Man]

I believe that the boat was at periscope depth. I will look into that more.

Thanks, I think that is an important aspect.



Well, I will admit that I hadn't thought of the idea of the surface ship being taken for the fake contact. Possible, but I think though that would have come out in the investigation, and the news had so much other information, they would have likely known that.

Just something that occrred to me considering the addition of the false contact.




I was not an officer, so I cannot say for sure, but I do not know of any exams that the Nav would be required to take while at sea. I never knew of an officer to take PACE courses, the military version of Phoenix University, either. Perhaps JBA could give us more insight? Is there any written exams for officers, like during Readiness examinations, like the TRE of ORSE?

I would imagine, although I think there might have been better times to take such an exam. Though I don’t know where the Hartford was headed at the time. I might speculate that not having completed the exam on patrol the navigator might have been doing it at the last minute (dang party boat atmosphere).



The idea that I get from all of this is, Commanders can either be lax, or strict. The lax ones take a gamble that the boat may one day hit something, and they lose their commission. If they get through it then it was smooth sailing. It is fairly common for subs to hit something. This isn't the first time that the Hartford has, either. Buoys, fishing boats, lobster pots, the ground, other subs, surface ships, all have been hit in the past.

Exactly, it does fall ultimately upon the commander.



I actually had three different Commanders. All three were strict. All three made rounds to the various departments keeping an eye on things. The other officers didn't care if the Helm was slouching in his seat, or if the Radioman of the Watch was down in Crews Mess (the dining hall) watching a movie with off-watch personnel. But the CO was not one to turn a blind eye.

Glad to hear it. Though even as a shift lead (12 hour shifts) I often watch movies with coworkers, but we have to watch the system as well. As I said I have no problem with and certainly do not lack an understanding of being bored for hours on end. However, some (including myself at times) got so intent on other activities (often intended to simply help keep them awake) that system failures where not immediately noticed. Of course such periodic inattentiveness will not generally result in a crash. It just makes a 3 billion (actually probably 7 to 8 billion now with the recent expansion) dollar facility less productive for some period of time. Certainly when we are active in recovery, maintenance or expansion I am quite strict in safety and procedures.

[The Man]

yes, the boat was at periscope depth. I think the idea is that the sub loses a lot of its maneuverability on the surface, and since 'rules of the road' says it has to give way to most of the other large ships crossing the straight at that time, the more maneuverability it has the better.

When at PD, many of the sonar arrays are useless. The cavitation from the Periscope and other antennae cause interference to the side arrays in the sail. The boat relies heavily on the periscope, and Electronic Surveillance at this time. Frequent sweeps of the area by the Officer of the Deck will update the contacts. The report stated that this was not being done.

So someone should have been looking through the periscope and the casual conversation of the sonar operators (prior to PD) might not have relayed all of the critical surface contacts effectively.

[Careyp74]

So someone should have been looking through the periscope and the casual conversation of the sonar operators (prior to PD) might not have relayed all of the critical surface contacts effectively.

Man, the more I think of it, the angrier I get at these idiots.

Along with the OOD doing his sweeps, I remember my boat would utilize a periscope operator, can't believe I forgot about that, since I had to relieve him for bathroom breaks. This had to be a requirement. Where was theirs?

There wasn't any mention of visibility, but I think it was dark out. They were aware of the ship, but misjudged its range and relative bearing. One more thing that adding a contact does is makes more work for Fire Control. The FC of the Watch tracks all of the contacts because he has the best equipment for it. I remember him being able to track most ships fairly well just from a bearing and estimated height, so there is no excuse for hitting something big.

I think I can name another tactical error. On the top of the periscope is the antenna for picking up electronic surveillance signals. All other ships radars would be heard on the system. There is a speaker and volume control out on the Con. A very close contact would give a very loud signal. The OOD probably turned the speaker off because it was interfering with his conversations. That is a no no. There is a watch stander in the radio room that monitors the ESM environment also, but he had his music going, so he wouldn't hear it.

[SnidelyW]

Although not in the Armed Forces, I work in a profession which has periods of boredom punctuated by moments of intensity where lives are on the line.

As a Fire Officer, I understand the fine line between keeping your teams motivated and alert but not so upset at you for enforcing protocol that they lose focus.

I agree with previous posters in their assessment that the CO of the boat has a responsibility to create a culture wherein performance at their work station is as natural as breathing, and the only real way to create that, IMO, is to ensure the Officers are accountable for personnel under their command, and so on down the rank structure.
Sometimes the mix of personalities can make this a difficult task, and the CO may not want to create a stressful situation, especially if all he wants to do is ensure he has a harmonious climate on the boat.

However, his first duty is to the optimal performance of the boat, and in this case, it's the old adage at work "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye".

Lax operating protocols may sustain a comfortable working environment, but in this case, it seems the collision 'dominoes' were allowed to line up perfectly to fall.

[The Man]

Man, the more I think of it, the angrier I get at these idiots.

Along with the OOD doing his sweeps, I remember my boat would utilize a periscope operator, can't believe I forgot about that, since I had to relieve him for bathroom breaks. This had to be a requirement. Where was theirs?

There wasn't any mention of visibility, but I think it was dark out. They were aware of the ship, but misjudged its range and relative bearing. One more thing that adding a contact does is makes more work for Fire Control. The FC of the Watch tracks all of the contacts because he has the best equipment for it. I remember him being able to track most ships fairly well just from a bearing and estimated height, so there is no excuse for hitting something big.

I think I can name another tactical error. On the top of the periscope is the antenna for picking up electronic surveillance signals. All other ships radars would be heard on the system. There is a speaker and volume control out on the Con. A very close contact would give a very loud signal. The OOD probably turned the speaker off because it was interfering with his conversations. That is a no no. There is a watch stander in the radio room that monitors the ESM environment also, but he had his music going, so he wouldn't hear it.

Ah another aspect I had not considered electronic surveillance. When running at PD isn't the radar mast also deployable (just speculating from what I have seen in movies and TV)?

[The Man]

Although not in the Armed Forces, I work in a profession which has periods of boredom punctuated by moments of intensity where lives are on the line.

As a Fire Officer, I understand the fine line between keeping your teams motivated and alert but not so upset at you for enforcing protocol that they lose focus.

I agree with previous posters in their assessment that the CO of the boat has a responsibility to create a culture wherein performance at their work station is as natural as breathing, and the only real way to create that, IMO, is to ensure the Officers are accountable for personnel under their command, and so on down the rank structure.
Sometimes the mix of personalities can make this a difficult task, and the CO may not want to create a stressful situation, especially if all he wants to do is ensure he has a harmonious climate on the boat.

However, his first duty is to the optimal performance of the boat, and in this case, it's the old adage at work "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye".

Lax operating protocols may sustain a comfortable working environment, but in this case, it seems the collision 'dominoes' were allowed to line up perfectly to fall.




Nice take on the situation SnidelyW. Had an equipment malfunction caused that crash that would be one thing, but this seems to be simply a malfunction of the working environment, the commander specifically and the duty officers directly.