A Richard G style anecdote: What a coincedence...

[Shaun from Scotland]

On the 26th December last year, a British police officer, Ian Broadhurst was gunned down and murdered. His colleague was wounded.

This is the first officer to be murdered on the mainland since the Firearms Act of 1997.

Since 1990 five (http://www.polfed.org/magazine/12_1999/12_1999_forget.htm) police officers have been killed on duty by gunfire.

In the same period in the USA seven hundred and seventy (http://www.odmp.org/index.php) officers where killed by gunfire. (I have manually counted this figure so apologies if it's wrong, but you get the idea.)

A man has been arrested in connection with Officer Broadhursts murder.


An American (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/3400559.stm)

Anecdotes . Good evidence aren't they Richard?

[Richard G]

Heres another one...from the U.K.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004033578,00.htmlA MACHINE-GUN maniac sprayed a police van with bullets early today, almost killing one officer...... Statistics in a Home Office report showed that violent crime was up 14 per cent between July and September last year compared with the same period in 2002.

Pity the Bobbies had to resort to making a 999 (911) call like a common citizen (or subject). In the US, they could have just shot back.

So much for gun control in the U.K. (hint, it doesn't work)

[Shaun from Scotland]

770 police officers Rich.

770 versus five and the only one killed since the 1997 Fireams Amendment Act was killed by an American.

Please explain how we would be safer if this is what Americans are like?

I mean I know it's extraordinarily stupid to make a sweeping statement about a whole nation of people from one example, but it never stopped you did it?

Incidentally, the cops made a 999 call as one officer did not have his radio with him and the other cop's had a bullet in it (which saved his life)

[WildCat]

Shaun, you are greatly oversimplifying the effect of gun control on the murder rate.

If you delve into US murder statistics, you will find great disparities among the different ethnic groups. For example, you're about 8 times more likely to be murdered if you're black rather than white. Since we all live under the same gun laws, there's obviously something else going on here.

The "War on Drugs" comes to mind. About all it has accomplished is financing the expansion and enrichment of street gangs in the US, the vast majority of whom are composed of minorities.

In fact, in 1999 the white homicide rate was 3.3/100,000 population. This is lower than Great Britains' rate!

Just have Britain go down the "War on Drug" path the US has taken and I'd bet things would even out real quick...

Source (http://www.in.gov/isdh/publications/minority2001/homocide.htm)

And please (and I'm not speaking specifically to you Shaun, but to all in general) don't try to turn this thread into some racist rant, or accuse me of the same. That was not my intent here! I'm just trying to show that this issue is much more complicated than "gun ban vs. no gun ban."

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by WildCat
Since we all live under the same gun laws, there's obviously something else going on here.


Which is precisely the point I have been trying to make in the numerous threads which Richard G posts some story about gun crime in the UK.

Scotland had had a huge decrease in gun crime with EXACTLY the same gun laws as England and Wales, yet he still persisits with this simplistic "gun ban causes gun crime" nonsense.

There IS something else going on here. And it's not me you need to address this point to.

[Jim Lennox]

In fact, in 1999 the white homicide rate was 3.3/100,000 population. This is lower than Great Britains' rate!

But your source (http://www.in.gov/isdh/publications/minority2001/homocide.htm) says :-

In 1999, African Americans aged 20 to 24 years had a homicide rate (61.2 per 100,000) that were more than twice the rate of their Hispanic counterparts (23.7 per 100,000) and nearly 8 times the rate of their White counterparts (8.2 per 100,000).

Just thought I'd let you know..

[Jim Lennox]

For example, you're about 8 times more likely to be murdered if you're black rather than white.

Males are three times more likely to be killed and eight times more likely to kill than females are.

From your source (http://www.in.gov/isdh/publications/minority2001/homocide.htm).

Of course this doesn't indicate that the war on drugs is stopping from women from being involved with gun violence.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by WildCat

In fact, in 1999 the white homicide rate was 3.3/100,000 population. This is lower than Great Britains' rate!



The Scottish executive disagrees (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00290-23.asp)

I will leave aside whether the figure the SE gives for the USA is correct or not. Even using your figures this is palpably not the case.

[Jim Lennox]

This is the first source I came across which mentions homicide rates in England for 1999.

The one crumb of comfort from the figures is that homicide rates are lower in Britain than elsewhere. In England and Wales, the rate is 1.45 per 100,000 compared with 1.63 in France, 1.28 in Germany and 2.60 in Spain.

From here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/05/04/ncrim04.xml).

And this source (http://crimevictimservices.org/victimtypes/index/homicide/statistics.html) claims

The 1999 Uniform Crime Report data suggest about an 8 percent drop in the number of murders in the United States, resulting in an estimated15,533 homicides during 1999. This translates into a rate of 6 per 100,000 U. S. inhabitants (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2000).

[Jim Lennox]

Ah, but hang on Wildcat did say the white murder rate. I will do some more searching..

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox
Ah, but hang on Wildcat did say the white murder rate. I will do some more searching..

Well I work out the Scottish homicide rate at 2.2 per 100,000 and that's for everybody

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Jim Lennox


But your source (http://www.in.gov/isdh/publications/minority2001/homocide.htm) says :-



Just thought I'd let you know..
Jim - the first (3.3/100,000) statistic is the overall homicide rate, the second (8.2/100,000) is among the 20-24 year old age group. Not contradictory!

I'm not sure what your point was in your second post. The vast majority of gang members are male, as are those involved in drug trafficking.

[Jim Lennox]

the first (3.3/100,000) statistic is the overall homicide rate

So are you saying that the homicide rate for the whole of the US is 3.3 per 100,000 for 1999?

Only just a quick look at Shaun's link (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00290-23.asp) puts that at 5.5. This is borne out by the FBI figure of 6 per 100,000.

What's going on? And why is it so hard to find this info? I'll keep trying.

edited to add

Now I understand what you mean. This (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htius.pdf) page has a white homicide rate at 3.5 per 100,000 for 1999

[WildCat]

So are you saying that the homicide rate for the whole of the US is 3.3 per 100,000 for 1999?
Jim, read what I wrote!
In fact, in 1999 the white homicide rate was 3.3/100,000 population.
Bold emphasis added for your benefit.
I was pointing out the different rates among various demographics of the population, to show that gun laws were not a major factor in the homicide rates.

I was wrong about Britains' overall homicide rate however.

And I'm having a hard time connecting to this site for some reason now!

[Jim Lennox]

I've edited my above post. There's a link there too!

Interesting to note in that whites are far more likely to kill in the workplace or with poison.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Jim........

Your wrong and your a grotesquely ugly freak!!!

(Sorry I got the Brasseye DVD today):D :D

[Jim Lennox]

Back of the net!

You have impeccable taste. :cool:

[Darat]

Originally posted by WildCat
Shaun, you are greatly oversimplifying the effect of gun control on the murder rate.

If you delve into US murder statistics, you will find great disparities among the different ethnic groups. For example, you're about 8 times more likely to be murdered if you're black rather than white. Since we all live under the same gun laws, there's obviously something else going on here.

The "War on Drugs" comes to mind. About all it has accomplished is financing the expansion and enrichment of street gangs in the US, the vast majority of whom are composed of minorities.

In fact, in 1999 the white homicide rate was 3.3/100,000 population. This is lower than Great Britains' rate!

Just have Britain go down the "War on Drug" path the US has taken and I'd bet things would even out real quick...

Source (http://www.in.gov/isdh/publications/minority2001/homocide.htm)

And please (and I'm not speaking specifically to you Shaun, but to all in general) don't try to turn this thread into some racist rant, or accuse me of the same. That was not my intent here! I'm just trying to show that this issue is much more complicated than "gun ban vs. no gun ban."

This is a quick "hit and run" post but I think you will find that in the UK there is also a seeming link with "ethnic" group and murder rate, especially murders involving guns. (Looking at the recent released figures seems to support this with more murders in areas such as London & Manchester that have large “black” populations.)

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Darat


This is a quick "hit and run" post but I think you will find that in the UK there is also a seeming link with "ethnic" group and murder rate, especially murders involving guns. (Looking at the recent released figures seems to support this with more murders in areas such as London & Manchester that have large “black” populations.)

Quite true. The afro-caribean population is disproportionately involved in gun crime. On the other hand police operations targeted on this group are now producing good results. Operation Trident in London is getting increasing cooperation from the black community and good conviction rates. Gun deaths over all of England and Wales fell by nearly 20% in 2003. There are some weird headlines at the moment suggesting large rises in gun deaths and violent crime. In fact the national crime survey showed violent crime falling by 2% ( I think ) the "increase" seems to be due to changes in police reporting methods.

Slightly off topic there is an interesting variation in homicide rates in the UK as between Scotland and England/Wales. There is less gun crime in Scotland but a higher homicide rate . This affects males only, mostly young males whose homicide rate is about 2x that of the rest of the country. The reason is that there is a flourishing knife culture in bonny Scotland with a resultant high death rate. Needless to say laws relating to the availability of knifes are uniform throughout the UK. This of course gives some support to the views of US posters re gun availability.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Nikk


Quite true. The afro-caribean population is disproportionately involved in gun crime. On the other hand police operations targeted on this group are now producing good results.

Profiling? How un-PC.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Nikk
The reason is that there is a flourishing knife culture in bonny Scotland with a resultant high death rate. Needless to say laws relating to the availability of knifes are uniform throughout the UK. This of course gives some support to the views of US posters re gun availability.

I fail to see how this even remotely supports these views.

Scots (and more especially Glaswegians) have always had a knife culture, going back to the Tongs and other street gangs.

Knife laws are NOT uniform across the UK (and neither are gun laws). Scotland has the recent Knifes (Scotland) Act which gives the Police greater powers to stop and search people suspected of carrying a knife than Police in England and Wales. It also has a much stricter interpretation of carrying a concealed weapon than equivalent laws in England and Wales

A hell of a lot of Scots like drinking and they like fighting. It is one of the most macho cultures on the planet. A Skihn dhu is a knife traditionally worn in your sock. Like America has a fascination wiith guns we have always had a fascination with knives going back hundreds of years. Please tell me how throwing guns into this mix will make things any better?

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


I fail to see how this even remotely supports these views.

Scots (and more especially Glaswegians) have always had a knife culture, going back to the Tongs and other street gangs.

Yes, that's what I said.

Knife laws are NOT uniform across the UK (and neither are gun laws). Scotland has the recent Knifes (Scotland) Act which gives the Police greater powers to stop and search people suspected of carrying a knife than Police in England and Wales. It also has a much stricter interpretation of carrying a concealed weapon than equivalent laws in England and Wales

You have misinterpreted my post. I specifically referred to the AVAILABILITY of knives, I did not refer to stop and search powers. As English law relating to concealed weapons is already very tight, there is unlikely to be much practical difference between here and Scotland but the point is irrelevant anyway.

A hell of a lot of Scots like drinking and they like fighting. It is one of the most macho cultures on the planet. A Skihn dhu is a knife traditionally worn in your sock. Like America has a fascination wiith guns we have always had a fascination with knives going back hundreds of years.

Like I said.

Please tell me how throwing guns into this mix will make things any better?

You have misinterpreted my post again. I never suggested throwing guns anywhere nor did I say that it would make things better.

To clarify........ On this thread and others US posters have pointed out that there are huge differences in homicide rates between ethnic groups, social classes and geographic areas within the US. They use these facts, reasonably enough, to argue that gun control should not be seen in a one dimensional way i.e. control guns - control the problem. I thought it was interesting and relevant to point out that within a country such as Britain with much lower homicide rates than the US there are also significant differences in these rates between broadly similar cultural groups i.e. young scots males and young english males despite the uniform availability of the chosen weapon. In other words the phenomenon they have with guns we have with knives. Clearly this is not an argument in favour of giving scotsmen guns.


[/B]

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Ed


Profiling? How un-PC.

Works though:D .

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Nikk
Yes, that's what I said.


Not exactly. You said Scotland had a "flourishing knife culture". I take flourishing to mean that there was none if any before and that it is increasing. This is not the case. It has always had it and young Scotsmen are no more likely to carry knives now than they ever have been.

I should have made clearer that laws on availibility under the Knives Scotland Act are more stringent. There are certain types of hunting knives which are illegal in Scotland and other bladed weapons, which are not illegal in England. Availibility is also restricted because of laws regarding what is a concealed weapon. It is perfectly acceptable to have certain knives on your person in England and Wales, as long as you have a good reason, which would be considered illegal in Scotland under any circumstances. There is a big practical difference and any fisherman in Scotland will tell you that.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


Not exactly. You said Scotland had a "flourishing knife culture". I take flourishing to mean that there was none if any before and that it is increasing. This is not the case. It has always had it and young Scotsmen are no more likely to carry knives now than they ever have been.

I should have made clearer that laws on availibility under the Knives Scotland Act are more stringent. There are certain types of hunting knives which are illegal in Scotland and other bladed weapons, which are not illegal in England. Availibility is also restricted because of laws regarding what is a concealed weapon. It is perfectly acceptable to have certain knives on your person in England and Wales, as long as you have a good reason, which would be considered illegal in Scotland under any circumstances. There is a big practical difference and any fisherman in Scotland will tell you that.

Well a common use of flourish is "to thrive". I was using it in a sardonic sense. I realised the knife culture had a long history.

As regards availability I was referring to ease of purchase. A wide range of knives is available by mail order.

The police in England take a very dim view of anything that seems to be a concealed weapon regardless of whether possession is legal. I certainly wouldn't put too much faith in the presumption of innocence!

[Thanz]

I did a google search for Canadian murder rate stats and came across this:According to the Canadian Firearms Centre, 26 per cent of Canadian households have at least one gun in them. The firearm homicide rate in Canada is .6 per 100,000. The firearm suicide rate is 3.35 per 100,000. The accidental firearm death rate is .13 per 100,000.

In the U.S., just over 41 per cent of households have at least one firearm in them. The firearm homicide rate is 6.24 per 100,000. The firearm suicide rate is 7.23 per 100,000. The accidental firearm death rate is 0.589 per 100,000.

In Japan, where just over one-half of one per cent of homes have a gun in them, the firearm homicide rate is .03 per 100,000. The firearm suicide rate is .04 per 100,000. And the accidental firearm death rate in Japan is just .01 per 100,000.

According to statistics aired on Wolf Blitzer's Late Edition program on CNN last weekend, there were something like 85 gun-related murders in Canada last year. In the U.S., there were over 9,700. In Japan, there were less than 20. Child psychologist Alvin Poussaint pointed out that during the last 10 years in America, the murder rate between the ages of 14 and 17 skyrocketed 172 per cent.
From here (http://www.seemagazine.com/Issues/1999/0506/op3.htm)
which seems to put in stark contrast the relative murder rates and gund deaths in various countries.

It seems to me that the United States has a serious gun violence problem. Richard G. seems to think that throwing more guns at the problem would somehow help. I think that is like throwing gasoline on a fire.