Judge sentences man to yoga

[ca3799]

In Houston, a judge has sentenced a man to one year of weekly yoga classes (among other things) for slapping his wife. Here, the judge explains his reasoning:


STANDLEY: I'll tell you what compelled me to do it, simply put, anger is a result of a feeling of a loss of control. And more and more I start seeing people that feel like they can control others around them. And the people that are really into yoga, just being in their presence, it is calming. And if it takes effect, I think it will help this individual. If not, then he will get revoked and do a year.

The rest of the story is here:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/24/cnna.standley/index.html

And here is my opinion: The judge is an idiot.

First, he seems to have trouble forming sentences.

Second, he admits he doesn't do yoga himself because he has a bad back. His explanation about why he imposed the sentence also included that he, the judge, felt calmer around people who do yoga. He seems to be imposing the yoga sentence based on his vague experiences with it and likely has no idea of what yoga encompasses. He has some idea that yoga will help with anger and loss of control issues. His personal experience with yoga is no more valid than mine.

Third, he already ordered the man to take anger management classes. The judge says he just basically added the yoga part on after everyone agreed to the sentence already.

Next, the judge reports the complainant has a documented substance abuse problem, so the judge orders the defendant to random drug testing? It is entirely possible that both parties have substance abuse problems. Or not. I hope the judge has some kind of evidence to sentence the man to drug testing, but given his reasoning in other areas, I'm not so sure...

Oh, I guess I could go on.

[crimresearch]

This reminds me of the judge in California who sentenced two youths to endure 'Native American' justice instead of a more traditional sentence.
Their tribal council elder (later revealed to be their uncle) told the judge that they would be cast out onto a deserted and inescapable island, to live or die as the Great Spirit wished, and the judge fell for it...a news crew went up to the village a few months later and found them zipping around on their ATVs.

Paul Nunis

[thaiboxerken]

I think that ordering "yoga" therapy is unconstitutional because Yoga's "effectiveness" is based on religious/superstitious nonsense.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I think that ordering "yoga" therapy is unconstitutional because Yoga's "effectiveness" is based on religious/superstitious nonsense.

You'd be correct if you were talking about yoga as in real yoga in India. But this is yoga (ie. 99% physical exercise) in the USA.

There has been a lot of positive studies of the benefits of yoga. I'd suggest going to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed and doing a search for yoga.

[thaiboxerken]

Sorry, but it doesn't sit well and it's still unconstitutional. This is the same as sentencing a person to daily prayers. Even if it is 99% exercise... 1% religion is still too much.

I'm all for rehabilitation, as long as it's secular. To force people to do religious rituals is illegal.

[ca3799]

Yoga may well be beneficial in some ways, but compelling someone to do it for 'anger management' is silly.

[KelvinG]

Personally, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about yoga.

I've worked out for the last 7 years through weight training and traditional cardio. However, since yoga has become all the rage in the last year or so, I've had so many people tell me that I really should be doing yoga. Why? What I'm doing works perfectly well and I feel great because of it.

Yet, apparently I've been missing out all this time because I haven't done the great and wonderful yoga.
Well, you know what, I've seen people doing yoga and I can tell it's not for me. If other people love it, great. But don't try and pretend it's some sort of panacea because it ain't.

Down with yoga.

[thaiboxerken]

Ever notice how Yoga practitioners tend to be wimpy little hippies?

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Ever notice how Yoga practitioners tend to be wimpy little hippies?

The superior humans known as skeptics should beat them up to further our cause in the war against quackery!

[TheERK]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Ever notice how Yoga practitioners tend to be wimpy little hippies?

Wow, I am saddened that a person like you represents skepticism.

Yoga has health benefits. It doesn't have to be religious at all, although it can be. Besides, you said that the health benefits, not the practice itself, are based on religious superstition. Either retract this statement or refute the evidence for the health benefits.

Eric

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by TheERK

Wow, I am saddened that a person like you represents skepticism.


He represents the fundamental variety very well.

[thaiboxerken]

Wow, I am saddened that a person like you represents skepticism.

I don't represent skepticism. I'm just a skeptic, not a spokesperson for skepticism. Did you not see my disclaimer?


Yoga has health benefits. It doesn't have to be religious at all, although it can be. Besides, you said that the health benefits, not the practice itself, are based on religious superstition. Either retract this statement or refute the evidence for the health benefits.

What evidence? Do you have evidence that Yoga has health benefits that are any more effective than other stretching exercises? The practice itself is based on superstition. It's "health benefits" are just a fortunate side-effect of stretching.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

The practice (yoga) itself is based on superstition. It's "health benefits" are just a fortunate side-effect of stretching.

*sigh*, here is Ken's basic argument, turned around for illustration purposes:

Ken, you practice muay thai, a sport/martial art where they pray to spirits (wai kru) (http://www.thaiboxing.com/ceremony.php?SID), do ritual dances before their fights (ram muay) (http://www.bangkokpost.net/kat/graphics/211002k2.jpg), other Buddhist rituals, and wear special symbolic headgear (mongkol) and armbands for good luck.

The mongkol is believed to bestow luck to the wearer because it has been blessed by a monk or the boxer’s teacher. They believe the armbands offer protection, as they hold small Buddha amulets inside. Muay thai's health and martial benefits are clearly therefore based on superstition and religious/superstitious nonsense.

What's that? You don't practice these aspects of traditional muay thai, or if you do you merely consider the dances/etc. stretching and warmups, so you think it is absurd when I say it is based on supersition?

Now follow that idential argument but with yoga, and you'll know where a lot of us stand and just how absurd and unfair your argumentation is. Just like you are not practicing all the aspects of traditional muay thai, nor do you consider muay thai as practiced by the vast majority in your location to be that, we are not practicing all the traditional aspects of yoga, nor do we consider yoga as practiced by the vast majority in our location to be that.

You are, in effect, saying that because at least one type of yoga is like that, all are, which is, needless to say, a flawed belief.

[thaiboxerken]

False, strawman argument and false analogy. I did not say that Yoga's health benefits are based on superstition and religion. I am saying that Yoga is a ritualistics exercise based on superstition and religion. I doubt that Yoga has health benefits that are greater than other stretching methods. My real argument is that Yoga's "effectiveness" is based on superstition.... as in it's behavior modification effective, that is why the judge sentenced the man to Yoga, after all.


I'm saying that the benefits of Yoga calming a person and giving them more self-control are not evident. The judge thinks that Yoga will cause that person to become less violent. The judge bases his opinion on people that he knows who practice Yoga, not on any valid reason.

[thaiboxerken]

double post.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
False, strawman argument and false analogy. I did not say that Yoga's health benefits are based on superstition and religion. I am saying that Yoga is a ritualistics exercise based on superstition and religion.


Great, so is muay thai in that case.

Cheers.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Great, so is muay thai in that case.

Cheers. [/B]

False analogy, yet again. The effectiveness of Muay Thai as a fighting art is not based in superstition and religion. The rituals performed by Muay Thai practitioners were added by Buddhists after the martial art was invented. The rituals also have nothing to do with the actual fighting, they are often done to keep evil spirits out and also to pay respects to the gods.

In Yoga, however, the effectiveness of it's techniques are rooted in superstition. It's claimed that the stretching exercises bring one closer to spiritual harmony and also improves ones ability to access the energy of their "chakra".

Do you have a non-fallicious argument to offer?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

False analogy, yet again. The effectiveness of Muay Thai as a fighting art is not based in superstition and religion.


Great! Then neither is the effectiveness of yoga then.


The rituals performed by Muay Thai practitioners were added by Buddhists after the martial art was invented.


Modern muay thai is laden with ritual.


The rituals also have nothing to do with the actual fighting,


They perform them before fights. I'd say that has to do with fighting.


In Yoga, however, the effectiveness of it's techniques are rooted in superstition.


Bzzz. It is in physiology.

[thaiboxerken]

Great! Then neither is the effectiveness of yoga then.

Non-sequiter. What is contained within Muay Thai does not affect Yoga. Your argument is fallacy.

Modern muay thai is laden with ritual.

After the fighting system was invented. The fighting system was not invented based on superstition, but what worked in combat.


They perform them before fights. I'd say that has to do with fighting.

Well you are wrong and only show how stupid you are. Simply because someone does an activity before fighting, doesn't mean that activity has to do with the fighting. The rituals have nothing to do with the actual martial art or fighting itself.



It is in physiology.

The benefits of stretching are physiological. However, Yoga is more than stretching. It teaches that such exercises will bring a person closer to spiritual enlightenment. They claim that the chakras are opened up and this allows cleansing energy to flow through the body.

Sorry, you lose again.

Do you have a rational argument, or will you keep this up ad-nauseum?

[Suddenly]

Not that I want to derail the whole exercise seminar or anything, but I feel like subjecting people to my opinion...


I've always hated the whole "I could have sent him to jail" rationale for these silly conditions upon probation. There isn't a whole lot to be done about it, as most defendants would be so thrilled to stay out of jail, or conversely afraid to be sent to jail, that there is often no objection to these sorts of requirements. It just isn't worth the risk to fight it. A few yoga classes beats the heck out of a year in jail, no matter how BS you think it is.

Judges who do this sort of thing are popular, and it is spreading as I fear it is becoming an election ploy to get pubicity and name recognition. We have people being required to tend to graves, carry around pictures, and now yoga. I wonder if anyone has been ordered to attend church. Matter of time. Would attract votes.

Of course, the person is "free" to "choose" jail, so he isn't being "forced."

Right.

This is when it sucks being a lawyer, when a judge pulls some silly crap like this, and you would like to get it thrown out, but the client is (and perhaps understandably so) too afraid of jail to stand up for his rights.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

After the fighting system was invented. The fighting system was not invented based on superstition, but what worked in combat.


What are you talking about? I keep saying "modern muay thai". Modern muay thai has ritual in it. Do not tell me it doesn't, and do not pretend that saying 'after the fighting system was invented' suddenly means that ritual is not heavily involved. Fact: ritual is involved in the current state of muay thai.


The rituals have nothing to do with the actual martial art or fighting itself.


Great! And chakras etc. have nothing to do with the actual stretching and weight bearing activity themselves.


It teaches that such exercises will bring a person closer to spiritual enlightenment. They claim that the chakras are opened up and this allows cleansing energy to flow through the body.


And some thai boxers wear buddha amulets and pray... They claim that this helps give them luck and protect them in fights.


Sorry, you lose again.


If I lose that is interesting, because my arguement is identical to yours, except I've exhanged 'yoga' for 'muay thai'.

[bignickel]

If the man had a cat, maybe the judge would have sentenced him to kitty yoga?

http://www.yogakitty.com/

[thaiboxerken]

What are you talking about? I keep saying "modern muay thai". Modern muay thai has ritual in it. Do not tell me it doesn't, and do not pretend that saying 'after the fighting system was invented' suddenly means that ritual is not heavily involved. Fact: ritual is involved in the current state of muay thai.

False, the ritual has nothign to do with the "benefits" of Muay Thai. No Kru or Ajarn will tell you that the Ram Muay and Wai Kru are what Muay Thai is based on. They do not believe that the better one performs the ritual, the better they will do in a fight. It is not required to know the rituals to compete in Muay Thai or to train. There are no techniques or principles contained within the art based on the rituals. The religious rituals that some do are based on Muay Thai and Krabi Krabrong techniques, not the other way around. The techniques in Yoga are based on the religious rituals.

Muay Thai is not a religious ritual, it is not performed to make one's self more spiritual, and it's not based on superstition. Yoga IS based on superstition and it IS a religious ritual. Your false analogies won't fly in this forum.






Great! And chakras etc. have nothing to do with the actual stretching and weight bearing activity themselves.

True, but they do have everything to do with the basic principles of Yoga. The rituals, stretches and exercises performed in Yoga are performed to open up these "chakras" and allow the flow of spiritual energy.


And some thai boxers wear buddha amulets and pray... They claim that this helps give them luck and protect them in fights.

Yet it has nothing to do with Muay Thai itself. Some baseball players have good luck charms, but that has nothing to do with baseball. You've presented another false analogy and nonsequiter.

If I lose that is interesting, because my arguement is identical to yours, except I've exhanged 'yoga' for 'muay thai'.

Take some geniune interest. You may have exchanged words in the arguments, but the words are not similar.. the activities are not similar. If you had a valid analogy, it would've worked. However, since Muay Thai and Yoga are very much different in principle, your analogy is false.

You've been defeated many times in this thread, but I guess you like getting beat on.

[T'ai Chi]

They do not believe that the better one performs the ritual, the better they will do in a fight.


LOL. I bet you've asked them all. :rolleyes:

I'm positive many do earnestly believe in the rituals as it is a BIG deal over in Thailand before fights. They might not believe the better they do in a ritual the better they will do in a fight, but they believe that if you even do a ritual you will probably do well in a fight because the spirits are looking out for ya.

I don't think all yoga people will tell you that chakras, etc. is what yoga is based on.


It is not required to know the rituals to compete in Muay Thai or to train.


Neither in yoga... One can do the exercises without knowing or believing in any of that stuff, and many people do.


There are no techniques or principles contained within the art based on the rituals.


Except what to do before you fight... Since muay thai is about fighting... I'd say for something that is non essential as you claim, it sure it done a lot. Where in baseball someone might have lucky charms, in muay thai both fighters perform their rituals before every fight. Both fighters. Each time. For everyfight. That is quite different than a couple players having some lucky charms.


The techniques in Yoga are based on the religious rituals.


Stretching my back is? I'd never have thought of that...

Could you show us the "religious ritual" that the Plank Pose or Warrior Pose came from? Thanks...

You've asserted Ken, now actually present some evidence. I found this one:

From Yogajournal.com's FAQ:

"7. Is yoga a religion?

Yoga is not a religion."

Cheers.

[thaiboxerken]

I bet you've asked them all.

No. Find me one that does.

I'm positive many do earnestly believe in the rituals as it is a BIG deal over in Thailand before fights. They might not believe the better they do in a ritual the better they will do in a fight, but they believe that if you even do a ritual you will probably do well in a fight because the spirits are looking out for ya.

Your assertion is based on nothing factual.

I don't think all yoga people will tell you that chakras, etc. is what yoga is based on.

It's what Yoga is based on, period.

Neither in yoga... One can do the exercises without knowing or believing in any of that stuff, and many people do.

Yes they can, but then they aren't doing Yoga, they are just doing stretching exercises.


Except what to do before you fight... Since muay thai is about fighting... I'd say for something that is non essential as you claim, it sure it done a lot.

In a fight outside the ring, Thaiboxers do not do a Ram Muay and Wai Kru before defending themselves. The techniques in the rituals were borrowed from Muay Thai and Krabri Krabrong, not the other way around.

Where in baseball someone might have lucky charms, in muay thai both fighters perform their rituals before every fight.

Some thai fighters, and mostly in Thailand. The rituals have nothing to do with the fighting.

Both fighters. Each time. For everyfight. That is quite different than a couple players having some lucky charms.

False, now you are simply telling lies.

Could you show us the "religious ritual" that the Plank Pose or Warrior Pose came from? Thanks...

Those are poses invented as part of the meditative/spiritual/religious ritual.

From Yogajournal.com's FAQ:

"7. Is yoga a religion?

Yoga is not a religion."



Of course, if they advertised it as a religious ritual, then people of other religions wouldn't buy into it. Simply because they say it's not based on religion and superstition doesn't make it so. This is like the telekinetic people saying that their claims are not paranormal.

Here is a page on Prana, the supposed "life energy" that flows through a body. (Superstitious concept)

http://www.yogafamily.com/pranayama/index.shtm

from the "getting started" section:

On a spiritual level, Yoga can help you discover your true self, but the it is not easily accessible. Whether your transformation is based on the physical goals of Yoga or the spiritually, you need to begin somewhere. Of course, check with your doctor before you begin any exercise.


Spiritual = religious.

http://www.yogafamily.com/getting/index.shtm





So, do you have a rational argument, or are you going to keep going on with your nonsense?

[thaiboxerken]

"What does OM stand for?
Om is the universal sound that all sounds originated from and all creation emerged. The sound of Om has four parts to it. 1. "Ahhh," 2. "Ooo," and 3. "Mmmm," 4. Silence after to absorb the vibration and energy of the sound."


More religion based claims of Yoga.

http://www.yogafamily.com/QA/index.shtm#religion

Could you please guide me on how to meditate on the ajna chakra?
There are a few approaches you can take for meditating on the 6th Chakra. Ajna Chakra is connected to the element of light and the pineal gland.

[thaiboxerken]

Some more religion from a site you mentioned, Yogajournal.com

http://www.yogajournal.com/newtoyoga/820_1.cfm

"As we explore these eight limbs, we begin by refining our behavior in the outer world, and then we focus inwardly until we reach samadhi (liberation, enlightenment). " <--religious/superstitious claim

"Om is a mantra, or vibration, that is traditionally chanted at the beginning and end of yoga sessions. It is said to be the sound of the universe. What does that mean?

Somehow the ancient yogis knew what scientists today are telling us–that the entire universe is moving. Nothing is ever solid or still. Everything that exists pulsates, creating a rhythmic vibration that the ancient yogis acknowledged with the sound of Om. We may not always be aware of this sound in our daily lives, but we can hear it in the rustling of the autumn leaves, the waves on the shore, the inside of a seashell.

Chanting Om allows us to recognize our experience as a reflection of how the whole universe moves–the setting sun, the rising moon, the ebb and flow of the tides, the beating of our hearts. As we chant Om, it takes us for a ride on this universal movement, through our breath, our awareness, and our physical energy, and we begin to sense a bigger connection that is both uplifting and soothing. "

". Is yoga a religion?

Yoga is not a religion. It is a philosophy that began in India an estimated 5,000 years ago. The father of classical ashtanga yoga (the eight-limbed path, not to be confused with Sri K. Pattabhi Jois' Ashtanga yoga) is said to be Patanjali, who wrote the Yoga Sutra. These scriptures provide a framework for spiritual growth and mastery over the physical and mental body. Yoga sometimes interweaves other philosophies such as Hinduism or Buddhism, but it is not necessary to study those paths in order to practice or study yoga.

It is also not necessary to surrender your own religious beliefs to practice yoga. "

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

"As we explore these eight limbs, we begin by refining our behavior in the outer world, and then we focus inwardly until we reach samadhi (liberation, enlightenment). " <--religious/superstitious claim


Refining behavior is religious? That's new. Buddhists talk about enlightenment all the time without being religious.


"Om is a mantra, or vibration, that is traditionally chanted at the beginning and end of yoga sessions. It is said to be the sound of the universe. What does that mean?


One does not have to OM to do yoga, just like one does not have to do the ritual dances and wear the ritual head and arm bands to do muay thai.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I bet you've asked them all.

No. Find me one that does.


You made the claim, you find the proof.


I'm positive many do earnestly believe in the rituals as it is a BIG deal over in Thailand before fights.

Your assertion is based on nothing factual.
[/b]

Except based on the fact that I know about muay thai oversees.


I don't think all yoga people will tell you that chakras, etc. is what yoga is based on.

It's what Yoga is based on, period.


Wow, convincing skeptical argument... :rolleyes: You cannot legislate the truth TBK.


Neither in yoga... One can do the exercises without knowing or believing in any of that stuff, and many people do.

Yes they can, but then they aren't doing Yoga, they are just doing stretching exercises.


Sorry, now you're completely off base.


In a fight outside the ring, Thaiboxers do not do a Ram Muay and Wai Kru before defending themselves.


And people do yoga all the time without OM-ing or worry about chakras.


The rituals have nothing to do with the fighting.


The OM and chakras have nothing to do with performing the physical postures.


Could you show us the "religious ritual" that the Plank Pose or Warrior Pose came from? Thanks...

Those are poses invented as part of the meditative/spiritual/religious ritual.


Uh, you just repeated what you said before. Show us specifically.


Spiritual = religious.


:rolleyes:

[thaiboxerken]

Refining behavior is religious? That's new. Buddhists talk about enlightenment all the time without being religious.

Buddhism is a religion. Spiritual enlightenment is a religous term.

One does not have to OM to do yoga, just like one does not have to do the ritual dances and wear the ritual head and arm bands to do muay thai.

Yoga teachest that OM is a universal sound that created the universe. That is a religious teaching. You are also ignoring the other spiritual and religious aspects of Yoga that I've brought up. The idea of Prana is religious. The idea of Chakras is religious. Spiritual enlightenment is religious.

You've been defeated and just won't admit it.

[thaiboxerken]

You made the claim, you find the proof.

Wrong answer. It is nigh impossible for me to find every instructor of Muay Thai and ask them the question to find the one that agrees with you. Sorry, but I will not do your bidding, boy.

Except based on the fact that I know about muay thai oversees.

I do too, you obviously don't know much.

Wow, convincing skeptical argument... :rolleyes: You cannot legislate the truth TBK.

I've already proven the fact that Yoga is a religious ritual time and again.

Sorry, now you're completely off base.

False. Yoga without the chanting, mantras and spiritual teachings is no longer Yoga. Without such things, it is no different than any other stretching regiment.


And people do yoga all the time without OM-ing or worry about chakras.

That's like saying Christians don't have to believe in Jesus. Sorry, doesn't happen.

The OM and chakras have nothing to do with performing the physical postures.

You're correct, without the OM and Chakras, it's not Yoga.. just postures.

Uh, you just repeated what you said before. Show us specifically

That ritual would be called Yoga.

Spiritual = religious.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken

I've already proven the fact that Yoga is a religious ritual time and again.


All you've done is claimed that and repeated that and repeated that and ...


That's like saying Christians don't have to believe in Jesus. Sorry, doesn't happen.


LOL. Funny, but absolutely false.


Spiritual = religious.

Another false repeat.

[Nyarlathotep]

I think the question of whether Yoga is based on superstition or not to be irrelevant or at least of secondary importance. Take the judges logic and apply it to a form of activity that unquestionably has no supernatural basis (step aerobics, for example), so pretend for a moment that he had ordered the defendant to take a step aerobics class because in his experience people who take step aerobics are more peaceful and calm. Does the judges claim come off as any less silly? I don't think so, not in my opinion anyway.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I think the question of whether Yoga is based on superstition or not to be irrelevant or at least of secondary importance...Does the judges claim come off as any less silly? I don't think so, not in my opinion anyway.

I think it's pretty important. But yes, I do think it's wrong to sentence a guy to do something that has nothing to do with the crime at all.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I think it's pretty important. But yes, I do think it's wrong to sentence a guy to do something that has nothing to do with the crime at all.

Well, my only point is that a BS claim is a BS claim, whether the supernatural is involved or not.

[thaiboxerken]

True. Judges should not require people to perform activities based on BS.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
True. Judges should not require people to perform activities based on BS.

That, I agree with completely.