Birth certificates for stillborns?

[Walrus32]

Madness...

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=975048

"Pennsylvania lawmakers are again considering a bill to provide birth certificates for stillborn babies.

Proponents have previously submitted bills for the birth certificates, but efforts have failed each time. In fact, the topic has become something of a political "football," partly because of the abortion issue. Charlene Bashore of the Pennsylvania Pro-Life Federation tells OneNewsNow the organization is supportive of the concept but does not take sides.

"We only got involved when this bill was originally introduced because a House committee chairwoman amended the bill and removed every reference to 'baby' or 'child' in the bill and replaced it with 'fetus' or 'fetal' and completely dehumanized the baby," Bashore explains.

A different committee avenue is being taken this time in the House, she says. "So I expect that it probably would not face the obstacles that were placed in front of it before because it did pass the Senate unanimously a year-and-a-half ago in its original form," she comments.

Bashore believes that if the bill does make it through committee to the House floor, it will pass this time. The drive is being led by 73-year-old Dorothy Knappenberger of Whitehall Township, whose granddaughter birthed a stillborn baby and was denied a birth certificate.

While 27 states do provide birth certificates in cases of stillborn babies, abortion-rights advocates are cautious because they fear such legislation could imply that a fetus is a person and possibly fuel pro-life arguments. But a Planned Parenthood spokesperson has stated that as long as the measure is carefully worded, the organization does not oppose the parental option of receiving a birth certificate for stillborns."

[Skeptical Greg]

Fail to see the connection with " Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology " ..

[jasonpatterson]

I've got to side with Planned Parenthood on this one. If it makes someone who has had a stillborn child better to get a birth certificate, why on Earth wouldn't you grant one? This assumes said certificate didn't grant any legal power to the fetus or parents (thinking tax exemption, in the case of the parents.) I believe that my birth certificate has a check box for "Live Birth" even, which pretty much simplifies everything greatly.

Why is it madness?

[Aepervius]

There is no reason to grant one, because a birth certificate is by law an official document on a certain occurence, and make a birth duly registered (and not a stillbirth). It can even be used as temporary identification documents, and is used by many administration (at least here around).

Naturally this all depend on law, and how much value have the document. If in the US such birth certificate have no official values, and has no consequence, so be it, give them the birth certficate.

[TSR]

Fail to see the connection with " Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology " ..
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Agreed, but responding in-thread so that when it is moved:

All six certificates I have had reason to examine due to familial relationships have had the verbiage "certificate of live birth" somewhere in. As such, they have been used to then gain various other documents: SSN cards, passports, visas, work permits, driver's licenses...

If a state wants to issue a certificate of non-live "birth," then most women could apply for one every 28 days.

I'm sorry, but I do not see the point of issuing official certificates for stillborns.
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[Walrus32]

Accept my apologies for using the wrong forum. I saw this thru a mindset of someone who handled stillbirths as a complication of pregnancy for 50+ years.

It's partly a semantic distinction also. "Stillbirth" is often synonymous with spontaneous abortion, in which there is often not an identifiable fetus. "Stillborn" usually denotes an apparently normal baby born dead. Some hospitals will give the parents an unofficial document of birth, which is not an official birth certificate that the state requires.

Obviously, the proposed state law(s) need to be exact in there wording. E. g., if a woman demands a ghastly late-term abortion for no good reason, should the state then be compelled to issue her a "birth" certificate. In my mind that's madness.

[Monketey Ghost]

Our first was stillborn. He has a name, we refer to him by it, and the hospital made a photo album with him dressed in tiny newborn clothes.

He deserves a birth certificate.

[TSR]

Our first was stillborn. He has a name, we refer to him by it, and the hospital made a photo album with him dressed in tiny newborn clothes.

He deserves a birth certificate.
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My complete sympathies for your loss.

Given your other mementos, why does he "deserve" a birth certificate? What possible benefit does *he* derive from it? What possible benefit would you?

Miguel died shortly after his second birthday. We have a certificate of live birth. It means nothing compared to his death. We have pictures of him, most of which are with his then-four-year-old brother. These are far more comforting to him, and to us, than a piece of paper saying he drew breath on the 3rd of November 2007. Micah chose a stuffed turtle for his brother, which was Miguel's constant companion as he came to crawl and walk. Murtyl was awarded a place of honour on Micah's bookcase after Miguel passed, and sometimes when I went to wake him, I would find that turtle had managed to creep into Micah's bed.

Time came for the crib to be disassembled and donated to charity with some other baby stuff. Micah asked about who might be sleeping there. I explained that we didn't know, but some little boy or girl who really needed it would have a place to sleep after we dropped it off. He brought his backpack when we went to the Salvation Army, and while he thought I wouldn't notice, he pulled out Murtyl, kissed her goodbye, and placed her on a shelf with other baby stuff.

Tell me that a piece of paper means more than that.
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[Helen]

Of course it's not very rational to have birth certificates for stillborn babies, but when that happens, parents are not rational, and everyone has their own way of trying to cope with the loss. Perhaps it may really help someone to have a birth certificate? if so, I can't see any harm. There must be some way to ensure that it will not be misused.

I've given birth to a dead child, and to one which died a few days after birth. One of the worst things afterwards (still is) was the assumption some people seemed to make that our daughters had not existed as our children, that we were childless. We were not, they were just not alive any longer. I can understand that someone in that situation may be comforted by a birth certificate; proof that your child has indeed existed.

[ponderingturtle]

This is the kind of thing I wonder about the impact on modern medicine on how people think. People so much expect infants to survive that it is remarkable when they don't. I remember hearing about some cultures that didn't name children until after a year, because the uncertainty of their survival made it questionable.

I also wonder how far along a pregnancy needs to be to get one of these certificates of dead birth. 3 months? 5 Months,7 months?

[Helen]

I don't know, I somehow feel that it should be up to the parents. I still think it's very irrational, and wouldn't have wanted one myself, but if someone is helped by it, does that really matter?

[ponderingturtle]

I don't know, I somehow feel that it should be up to the parents. I still think it's very irrational, and wouldn't have wanted one myself, but if someone is helped by it, does that really matter?

So how about then a non legal document form of certificate? One main concern I might have is over identity thefts and the like that issuing more birth certificates could cause.

Why does it have to be a legal document?

[Helen]

Well, couldn't the birth certificate show that the child is dead? I think it should be the same in every other respect, though, in order to be of any use; proof that your child is no different than any other child.

I haven't thought about this before, but I can understand that it could be a comfort.

[Travis]

My mom had two stillborns after me and before my brother. I sincerely doubt she would have wanted a certificate reminding her of the events.

[Professor Yaffle]

In the UK, stillbirths are all registered, and didn't realise that wasn't the case in the US.

Why is registration necessary?
Stillbirth registration began in 1927 to help protect infant life. As well as being an important source of historical and statistical information, it gives the parents the opportunity to have their child officially acknowledged and to give him or her names if they wish to.
http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/advice/life-events/register-office/birthregistration/stillbirth.html

[ponderingturtle]

In the UK, stillbirths are all registered, and didn't realise that wasn't the case in the US.


http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/advice/life-events/register-office/birthregistration/stillbirth.html

And there they have a cut off at 24 weeks were before that they don't consider it a still birth, but a miscarriage and don't document it.

[Professor Yaffle]

And there they have a cut off at 24 weeks were before that they don't consider it a still birth, but a miscarriage and don't document it.

Well since this thread is about stillbirths and not miscarriages.... ;)

Is the definition of stillbirth in the US different? Would a first trimester miscarriage be called a stillbirth?

ETA - I just checked, and it seems the problem is that you don't have a standard definition of stillbirth:

In the United States, there is no standard definition of the term 'stillbirth'.[8] The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention collects statistical information on "live births, fetal deaths, and induced termination of pregnancy" from 57 reporting areas in the United States. Each reporting area has different guidelines and definitions for what is being reported; many do not use the term "stillbirth" at all. The federal guidelines suggests (at page 1) that fetal death and stillbirth can be interchangeable terms. The CDC definition of "fetal death" is based on the definition promulgated by the World Health Organization in 1950 (see section above on Canada).

The federal guidelines recommend reporting those fetal deaths whose birth weight is over 350g, or those more than 20 weeks gestation. Forty-one areas use a definition very similar to the federal definition, thirteen areas use a shortened definition of fetal death, and three areas have no formal definition of fetal death. Only 11 areas specifically use the term 'stillbirth' , often synonymously with late fetal death, however they are split between whether stillbirths are "irrespective of the duration of pregnancy", or whether some age or weight constraint is applied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stillbirth#United_States

[Darat]

Well since this thread is about stillbirths and not miscarriages.... ;)

Is the definition of stillbirth in the US different? Would a first trimester miscarriage be called a stillbirth?


Which I find quite surprising as the difference between a miscarriage and a stillbirth is obviously something that society recognised a long time ago, that is why we have different words in English for the two.

[ponderingturtle]

Which I find quite surprising as the difference between a miscarriage and a stillbirth is obviously something that society recognised a long time ago, that is why we have different words in English for the two.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that there is a clear distinction between them. Well except in Britain I guess, as legally first 6 months = miscarriage after that it is a still birth.

[Professor Yaffle]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that there is a clear distinction between them. Well except in Britain I guess, as legally first 6 months = miscarriage after that it is a still birth.

I don't understand the problem. There is no clear distiction between a child and an adult either, but we generally create an arbitrary dividing line to allow adults to do things that children cannot - rather than just saying that because there is no clear division, we will just stop adults from doing those things too.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't understand the problem. There is no clear distiction between a child and an adult either, but we generally create an arbitrary dividing line to allow adults to do things that children cannot - rather than just saying that because there is no clear division, we will just stop adults from doing those things too.

But there arguments for the dividing line there are different. Here we are talking about issuing legal documents to make people feel better and for no other purpose, well why wouldn't people below that line need recognition of their loss? People recognize the loss of a someones child as a loss with out regard to if they are a minor or an adult.

[Darth Rotor]

Our first was stillborn. He has a name, we refer to him by it, and the hospital made a photo album with him dressed in tiny newborn clothes.

He deserves a birth certificate.
If you feel that way, he also needs a death certificate. Was one of those issued?

DR

[Helen]

If you feel that way, he also needs a death certificate. Was one of those issued?

DR

I don't necessarily think that is a bad idea; as I've said, one of the difficulties when you have a child who is dead at birth, is that it tends to become a non-child in many ways, as if it never existed at all. Perhaps the certificates could be a way of mitigating that to some extent. Stillbirths are registered in many countries, so it should be possible.

We all grieve differently. What may seem strange to me could be important to someone else.

[Professor Yaffle]

But there arguments for the dividing line there are different. Here we are talking about issuing legal documents to make people feel better and for no other purpose, well why wouldn't people below that line need recognition of their loss? People recognize the loss of a someones child as a loss with out regard to if they are a minor or an adult.

As I quoted earlier, in the UK it is not solely to make people feel better. It is also for statistical and historical purposes.

Besides that, the fact is that people DO generally feel much differently about a (eg) 10 week miscarriage than they do about giving birth to a dead baby at (eg) 28 weeks. It is now common practice to encourage parents of stillborn babies (or those that die shortly after birth) to hold their child and have a photograph taken with them - perhaps to have a memorial service. A birth certificate would be part of that whole process.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Stillbirth/Pages/Afterwards.aspx

[Professor Yaffle]

If you feel that way, he also needs a death certificate. Was one of those issued?

DR

I think in the UK a "stillbirth" certificate is issued, that records both the birth and the death.

[Helen]

Registering a stillbirth gives the parents an opportunity to acknowledge their child's birth and is also important for statistical records

This is from Professor Yaffle's link. True, I think.

In Sweden the dividing line between a stillbirth and a miscarriage is a bit later, 28 weeks, but if it happens before 28 weeks, and the child shows signs of life, that is counted as a stillbirth as well. A bit fuzzy, but it seems to be working here, so perhaps there needn't be a sharp dividing line.

[Upchurch]

I am really conflicted about this one. I think it should be an option for the parents, but I think I'm really against it being mandatory (if that is even what is being pushed for).

This is a really personal thing for people. I'm a tad disturbed that it is being used as a political football.

[Darth Rotor]

I think in the UK a "stillbirth" certificate is issued, that records both the birth and the death.
There's a good idea.

[Professor Yaffle]

I am really conflicted about this one. I think it should be an option for the parents, but I think I'm really against it being mandatory (if that is even what is being pushed for).

This is a really personal thing for people. I'm a tad disturbed that it is being used as a political football.

If the parents don't want to register the birth (because they feel it would be too painful for them, for example), it can be done by the hospital, or someone who was present at the birth (again, I am speaking about the UK system).

I don't like it being used as a political football either. I think the pro choice camp can go a little overboard in denying any sort of humanity to an unborn child and it can come off as very insensitive.

[Alferd_Packer]

Stacey Campfiled, a state rep in Nashville tried to pass something like that a while ago.

It failed.

[Walrus32]

As has been said, life is just one long process of letting go.

Keeping some sort of remembrance of a departed loved one is understandable and probably universal among humans. It helps survive the grief and accept the finality of the loss. Whatever mementos you have of that person may be invaluable and in a sense keeps that person alive, even a stillborn baby in whom at one time you had so many hopes and dreams and even loved so much.

Having a legal document attesting to the birth of that dead baby may be priceless to some and trivial to others. I just don't know.

[INRM]

A miscarriage and a stillbirth aren't the same thing...

[kerikiwi]

Keeping some sort of remembrance of a departed loved one is understandable and probably universal among humans.

Actually it is not universal.
I can't recall where, but there is/was at least one society where a dead person's name was never mentioned again, with all traces of that person's existence being erased.