The psychology of Hell

[sparklecat]

A quote from here (http://www.revlu.com/hell.html).

"The smell was so nauseating that it made him cough and gasp for air
but there was none. His ears than began to be filled with a very
eerie sound that sounded like humming. This sound was constant
and got louder and louder as he approached the lava. God
opened his understanding as to what the sound was. The sound
was actually human beings screaming in unbelievable agony.
He realized that God was showing him a vision of hell.

At about 200 feet above this lake of lava, fire and brimstone,
the pain got almost too much to bear. He then saw some
objects bobbing up and down in this burning sea of what
looked like lava. There were tens of thousands of these
objects. These objects were actually human beings bobbing
up and down and back and forth.
These people were weeping and wailing in extreme agony.

No relief from pain was available to them. Their bodies were
burned black in this sea of fire and brimstone. Suddenly he
plunged into the lava and it covered him and filled his eyes,
nose throat, lungs etc. His eyes felt like they were being
consumed out of their sockets and could barely breathe.
He finds it difficult to explain the amount of pain he was
experiencing. He also knew hell was eternal
and no chance of getting out.

He was shown that selfishness is the gateway to hell.
Excruciating pain overtook him fully as he was submerged in this
sea of fire and brimstone that looked like lava. As he was sucked
down into this sea he was in total darkness with no light at all.
He was suffocating and could not take a breath but yet he was
not dying. When he returned to the surface he realized that he
was till intact and his five senses were very much alive.

There were other creatures in the sea of fire that looked like
huge worms. They would come to the surface and then disappear
and then return to the surface. About 20 feet from him he saw
them coming to the surface and they were coming towards him.
When they reached him they began boring into him and went
inside his body and brain and were coming out of his eyes.
They were driving him insane. (where the worm dieth not)
There is no end to these things in hell. They are eternal.
There is no place to go for any relief. There is no love
there. It is totally void of love.
An emptiness beyond comprehension enveloped him.

Although there were many, many others there, there were no
communications whatsoever. Your memory is also there still
with you and you can remember everything that went on in
your life, including each time the Gospel was presented to you
and you refused. He then was gripped with an intense thirst.
There was no way to quench this thirst. (rich man and Lazarus)

If the message of the Gospel is rejected you will be forever
tormented in hell like the Bible so clearly says. The voice of
God then echoed across the sea of fire and brimstone and
lava telling hell to release him and he was returned back
to his room.

Do I believe this? Sounds awful! It does not contractict
the bible. GOD does NOT want YOU there, so He
provided His Son, Jesus, Yeshua Messiah.

BELIEVE in Him and be SAVED from this horror!"


I've noticed that certain Christians hold onto this literal view of Hell, to the point of seeming to take some perverse glee in describing the torments of the damned. I'm wondering how apparently otherwise caring, compassionate people can hold to a belief that leads to those they love being sent to a place such as this for the smallest of sins given, and not seem to have a problem with it... even seem to take comfort in knowing that their enemies are going there.

It's incomprehensible to me. I personally just never really thought about it, and literally could not believe in it when I did face up to what this part of Biblical Christianity actually meant. Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion?

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat
I've noticed that certain Christians hold onto this literal view of Hell, to the point of seeming to take some perverse glee in describing the torments of the damned. I'm wondering how apparently otherwise caring, compassionate people can hold to a belief that leads to those they love being sent to a place such as this for the smallest of sins given, and not seem to have a problem with it... even seem to take comfort in knowing that their enemies are going there.

It's incomprehensible to me. I personally just never really thought about it, and literally could not believe in it when I did face up to what this part of Biblical Christianity actually meant. Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion?

I would assume that these 'certain' Christians when presented with a docrtine of annihilationism also tend to suggest they could do without an eternal presence in relation to God and would opt for non-existence. Which is telling of their "God" choice, it is directed via a fear of torment.

Professing pleasure in someone elses torment is indeed peculiar. You do recall that Christianity is mere religion?

[Marquis de Carabas]

It's incomprehensible to me. I personally just never really thought about it, and literally could not believe in it when I did face up to what this part of Biblical Christianity actually meant. Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion?
Most people I know who believe in a literal Hell take one of two approaches to avoiding the obvious horros of contemplating their loved ones' suffering. They either ignore the doctrine, paying lip-service alone to it, or believe that once in Heaven, they will have no memories of their unsaved loved ones, so the people in Hell will just be strangers. This seems to me to be a wholly disturbing thought, but it seems to work for them.

As for how it got started, I think you're on the right track. Memetically speaking, the eternal punishment idea is a good reinforcer for any other meme(s) it finds itself attached to. Religious memes always seem to have a strong appeal to the human psyche, and coupled with eternal punishment, the lure can be almost overpowering. If God loves me and comforts me if I believe in him, that's all well and good. If he does all that, and will make me suffer if I disregard him, well, sign me up.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by frisian


I would assume that these 'certain' Christians when presented with a docrtine of annihilationism also tend to suggest they could do without an eternal presence in relation to God and would opt for non-existence. Which is telling of their "God" choice, it is directed via a fear of torment.

Professing pleasure in someone elses torment is indeed peculiar. You do recall that Christianity is mere religion?

Aye, it's interesting to see how many will appeal to fear- saying serve God because he loves you at first, but when you dig deeper, falling back on serve God or burn.

Religion as opposed to what?

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas

Most people I know who believe in a literal Hell take one of two approaches to avoiding the obvious horros of contemplating their loved ones' suffering. They either ignore the doctrine, paying lip-service alone to it, or believe that once in Heaven, they will have no memories of their unsaved loved ones, so the people in Hell will just be strangers. This seems to me to be a wholly disturbing thought, but it seems to work for them.


I never understood that view either- "Well, since I wouldn't like the idea of my grandmother being in Hell, once I get to Heaven, I just won't remember it!" But I think it has to be a combination of the two views... I don't see how anyone could be fully comprehending the doctrine and still saying they love God and he is just, merciful, loving, what have you.

[Skeptical Greg]

What a disgusting site...

Incredible list of " Who is in hell ? "


I find it interesting that there is nothing in the OT about hell..


Looks like it is something God came up with after he decided to show us his love by sending Jesus...

God:

" Well, if I'm going to send my son to save em', gues I better come up with something real nasty to save em' from.. "

[Marquis de Carabas]

I don't see how anyone could be fully comprehending the doctrine and still saying they love God and he is just, merciful, loving, what have you.
I really think most Christians' everyday view of Hell is rather detached from what they would profess to believe if asked. A good friend of mine is a devout Baptist and, if asked, will tell you all about the torments of Hell. Yet, he never tries to save a soul from it. The only conclusions I can draw from this are (a) he doesn't care or (b) he doesn't really believe in it as stridently as he professes. As he appears to be a quite caring and thoughtful human being in other aspects of his life, I go with b. I rather hope I'm right.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Sparklecat
Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion?


I don't think it was necessarily started with such an intent, but once it was there it proved pretty worthwile to keep people in line. The vicious thing I think about it is that such a doctrine lies beyond the realm of testability. Just as the counterpart does: Heaven

"He was shown that selfishness is the gateway to hell."

The ironic thing is that this doctrine of heaven/hell actually plays exactly on what it (amongst other things) condemns: selfishness

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by sparklecat
It's incomprehensible to me. I personally just never really thought about it, and literally could not believe in it when I did face up to what this part of Biblical Christianity actually meant. Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion?

I think it began as a simple dualistic concept, integrated into Christianity from some other source, such as Zoroastrainism. The dualist would examine the Judaic philosophy of a God and a paradise in the afterlife, and reason that there must be an anti-God and an anti-paradise in the afterlife as well. Apparently some who were involved with the creation of early Christianity seized upon this notion and used it afterwards as a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion.

I also agree with Lord Emsworth. Considering that all the "kindness" and wonderful acts a Christian does during his life (aye, even "saving others") are all actually part an attempt to bribe the Almighty into sparing oneself from Hell, it's a wonder anybody ever makes it to Heaven.

[sparklecat]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi

I also agree with Lord Emsworth. Considering that all the "kindness" and wonderful acts a Christian does during his life (aye, even "saving others") are all actually part an attempt to bribe the Almighty into sparing oneself from Hell, it's a wonder anybody ever makes it to Heaven.

Mmm, not quite, going by Christian doctrine... which states that one is saved by grace through faith in Christ. Though of course, you then get verses about how faith without works is dead...

Heh... maybe the bribery is more an attempt to prove to God and yourself that you're a True Christian?

[Finella]

There's probably several different ways to approach this, but since you, Sparklecat, asked about the psychology of hell, I would warrant it has a lot to do with how we grow up to understand and respond to authority. There is a stage of moral development (around early school age) where we do good mainly for the purpose of avoiding punishment. It's not until later that we do good simply for the purpose of "good" and not because it happens to make us feel good or because we avoid punishment.

I think many people who hold fast to the fire-and-brimstone doctrine of hell (er, Hell) are partially stuck in this early stage of moral development. We all get partially stuck at different stages, though, so it's nothing to get snooty about.

---,---'--{@

p.s. Sparkle -- I thought you had read The Great Divorce...? How does that sit with you? If you haven't read it, I would give it a try. It has a lot of brainfood on this subject.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by sparklecat


Mmm, not quite, going by Christian doctrine... which states that one is saved by grace through faith in Christ. Though of course, you then get verses about how faith without works is dead...

Heh... maybe the bribery is more an attempt to prove to God and yourself that you're a True Christian?

Even if it is only grace you do sth (accepting Jesus) to gain sth (heaven) for yourself.

[sparklecat]

Thanks for the insight Finella.


Aye Ems, but apparently that doesn't count as a "work" :D

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by sparklecat
Aye Ems, but apparently that doesn't count as a "work" :D

But it utilizes the selfish strain to get you into heaven, when it actually should get you to hell.

[sparklecat]

I won't say I never noticed the same... but then, apparently God encourages certain sorts of selfishness. Those that go along with his decisions?

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by sparklecat
I won't say I never noticed the same... but then, apparently God encourages certain sorts of selfishness. Those that go along with his decisions?

Supposing that He exists, yes, apparently.

[Finella]

I would be careful here. Saying that the whole doctrine of Christian salvation is bent on our selfish desire to live forever is limiting the concept. Again, it relates to the stage of moral development one is operating from. Perhaps one becomes a Christian through this desire for the "reward" (as opposed to the punishment of hell), but one may not stay a Christian for that reward. One may not even become a Christian because of the hope for immortality, but for other reasons. However, a lot of fundy denominations within Christianity are focused on this reward/punishment scheme and thus, as they are the loudest and most noticeable of many Christians, it seems all of Christianity operates this way -- at an early stage of moral development.

---,---'--{@

[sparklecat]

Fair enough :)

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat


Aye, it's interesting to see how many will appeal to fear- saying serve God because he loves you at first, but when you dig deeper, falling back on serve God or burn.

Religion as opposed to what?

It is interesting to me. When I have suggested how ones Christian paradigm would change if annihilationism were deemed true, many were "jumping off ship".

As opposed to a supernatural being.

[sparklecat]

*grins* That'd be a bit harder for evangelizing with... "Serve God, or live life as you want, have a pretty nice time, then be briefly resurrected after death to go into the oblivion you expected in the first place." That may well be another reason for it... it's needed to make Christianity appealing.

Ah, yes. Then I agree. But Hell goes along with that religion, and not with a generic god so much,

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat
*grins* That'd be a bit harder for evangelizing with... "Serve God, or live life as you want, have a pretty nice time, then be briefly resurrected after death to go into the oblivion you expected in the first place." That may well be another reason for it... it's needed to make Christianity appealing.

Ah, yes. Then I agree. But Hell goes along with that religion, and not with a generic god so much,

Really assuming there is no God or god or gods, you can't really (to me) go into dogma or doctrine. Or rather I don't see the point unless you are bored, amused, or on a particular acid trip.

[sparklecat]

1. I don't assume that. How many times now have I said that today? :p

2. You may not see the point, but I do.

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat
1. I don't assume that. How many times now have I said that today? :p

2. You may not see the point, but I do.

I am sorry, I didn't word it correctly.

Now I do, now I don't. Tis rather subjective and I am not what I was nor am what I will be.

[frisian]

Originally posted by frisian


I am sorry, I didn't word it correctly.

Now I do, now I don't. Tis rather subjective and I am not what I was nor am what I will be.

Forgot to add...

and awareness is relative, perception is subjective, and interpretation clouds fact.

:p

[sparklecat]

It's of no consequence to me really, I know my own motives and am perfectly satisfied with them :p

Anyhoo, stop derailing my thread with a discussion on my motives, you know I hate that.

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat
*grins* That'd be a bit harder for evangelizing with... "Serve God, or live life as you want, have a pretty nice time, then be briefly resurrected after death to go into the oblivion you expected in the first place." That may well be another reason for it... it's needed to make Christianity appealing.

Ah, yes. Then I agree. But Hell goes along with that religion, and not with a generic god so much,

*stunts his train of thought, and puts the thread back on towards its conclusion*

Hell is a make believe bad and scary place and Christians use it to scare people because they aren't aware of reality.

*awaits back slaps and high fives*

;)

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by frisian


*stunts his train of thought, and puts the thread back on towards its conclusion*

Hell is a make believe bad and scary place and Christians use it to scare people because they aren't aware of reality.

*awaits back slaps and high fives*

;)

You mean Hell couldn't be real, even if they made all the other stuff up?

[Skeptical Greg]

I love the " Catholic Encyclopedia " dissertation on Hell..


Hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

Since a lot of people believe in it, it must be real..
Accordingly, it is the belief of all people that eternal retribution is dealt out immediately after death. This conviction of mankind is an additional proof of our thesis.

Whoa! It proves it to me....


It is avery big article, with lots of proof, like quotes from the Bible..

[frisian]

Originally posted by Diogenes


You mean Hell couldn't be real, even if they made all the other stuff up?

Sure why not?

[El Greco]

Sometimes I ask theists another question; if a sinner goes to hell and stays there for several millennia and after all this time he finally repents truly and deeply for his earthly sins, is this repentance completely worthless to our most merciful Lord ?

The whole theory of Hell appeals to the lower levels of human logic, yet even highly intelligent people choose to believe in it. People are so miserably insecure, and religion exploits exactly this loophole.

[frisian]

Originally posted by El Greco
Sometimes I ask theists another question; if a sinner goes to hell and stays there for several millennia and after all this time he finally repents truly and deeply for his earthly sins, is this repentance completely worthless to our most merciful Lord ?

The whole theory of Hell appeals to the lower levels of human logic, yet even highly intelligent people choose to believe in it. People are so miserably insecure, and religion exploits exactly this loophole.

Millennia? What is their response? I have missed this time relation aspect to hell, which flavor of theism suggests such?

Why are they insecure? Damn it, when will be rid ourselves of emotions!!!

Lower levels of human logic?

[sparklecat]

When we're trying to unload our emotions onto reality and make it accept them, I think there's a bit of a problem.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by El Greco
Sometimes I ask theists another question; if a sinner goes to hell and stays there for several millennia and after all this time he finally repents truly and deeply for his earthly sins, is this repentance completely worthless to our most merciful Lord ?

The whole theory of Hell appeals to the lower levels of human logic, yet even highly intelligent people choose to believe in it. People are so miserably insecure, and religion exploits exactly this loophole.


Take a look at the link I posted..

Hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

The Catholics even manage to rationalize ( not very well IMO ) about why infinite punishment for a finite crime ( not believeing ), can be considered just...

[sparklecat]

What a lovely article...

"Moreover, if all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear no kind of punishment after death, moral and social order would be seriously menaced. This, however, Divine wisdom cannot permit."

"And, besides, the fear of hell does really deter many from sin; and thus, in as far as it is threatened by God, eternal punishment also serves for the reform of morals. But if God threatens man with the pains of hell, He must also carry out His threat if man does not heed it by avoiding sin."

[c4ts]

Originally posted by frisian
[B]

Really assuming there is no God or god or gods, you can't really (to me) go into dogma or doctrine.

Yet somehow LK managed to do just that...

[frisian]

Originally posted by sparklecat
When we're trying to unload our emotions onto reality and make it accept them, I think there's a bit of a problem.

Ah well good imaginary mental creation, my only hope is that we someday evolve into being without these useless emotions.

[frisian]

Originally posted by c4ts


Yet somehow LK managed to do just that...

I do believe you post less words per post than I do.

Who is LK?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by frisian


I do believe you post less words per post than I do.

Who is LK?

Lord Kenneth, a.k.a. Dark Cobra, the one and only dogmatic atheist. Search for posts under either of those names.

Anyway, who gives a damn about words per post? I like to keep things short, simple, and straight to the point.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by frisian
Millennia? What is their response? I have missed this time relation aspect to hell, which flavor of theism suggests such?

I'm not sure what you mean. Hell is supposed to be eternal, so several millennia must easily fit somewhere in the eternity, unless I have missed another bright twist in the Hell mythology.

Originally posted by frisian
Why are they insecure? Damn it, when will be rid ourselves of emotions!!!

Have the atheists gotten rid of emotions ? Again, I don't understand what you mean. Doess the presence of emotions make their exploitation by religion justifiable ?

Originally posted by frisian
Lower levels of human logic?

Exactly. The theory of hell is one of the less logical theories in the already rickety logic of religion. Once more, I don't get what you mean.

If you are asking questions (?) I'm afraid you have to be more specific.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Take a look at the link I posted..

Hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

The Catholics even manage to rationalize ( not very well IMO ) about why infinite punishment for a finite crime ( not believeing ), can be considered just...

Thanks, I read it. I had no doubt that many encyclopaedians would justify the eternity of hell. The article made me sick, I wouldn't even begin dealing with the author's riddled logic. But what I did not see is reference to a populous school of Russian orthodox theologians who believe that all people will eventually be saved because the omnibenevolent God cannot possibly condemn anyone to hell.

[MRC_Hans]

A little on the side, I have always had logical difficulties with both heaven and hell. Starting with hell, just think: What is pain? It is the mortal body's reaction to possible damage. But the people in hell are already dead, they are immortal souls! How do you torture an immortal soul?

Fire? ...No, fire only hurts a living body.

Fear? ... What does an immortal sould have to fear?

Boredom? ...Well, there could be something there, but isn't that what we face in heaven as well?

Heaven? Playing harp, talking with friends, praising the Lord... Uhhh, for eternity ? How long before you would be bored sick?

My personal vision of hell is going to heaven and having to spend eternity with some christian fundies who have been proved right :eek:.

Or .... how about this:
A man, who had been a bit of a rogue, one morning woke up in a beautiful house in a beautiful park. He had a servant at his disposal, and, as he soon found out, anything he asked for was immediately granted. He could have wonderful meals, wine, parties, women, music etc... and no matter how wild a party had been, the house would be spotless the next morning and he would wake up, fit as a fiddle, with no trace of a hangover.

He enjoyed himself thoroughly, but after some time, he became restless. The parties bored him, and the women seemed all alike. He thought about this for some time, and finally it dawned upon him what he was missing. He called his good servant and said: - I want to try something new! I want to do some work, I want a woman who won't just do everything I ask of her! I want some challenge!

- Well sir, - said the servant, - I'm afraid that is impossible! All those things mean problems, and you are not allowed to have any problems here! -

- But then, - cried the man, - ... I might as well be in hell! -

- Well sir, - said the servant, - but where do you think you are?? -

(From here (http://www.hans-egebo.dk) :D


Hans

[c4ts]

Ah, the Catholic Encyclopedia, complete with a selective memory regarding the history of the middle ages. Have you read their exquisitely biased entry on materialism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10041b.htm)?

[sparklecat]

"My personal vision of hell is going to heaven and having to spend eternity with some christian fundies who have been proved right."

*grins* I actually once suggested that as a Christian apologist... that since the nonchristians would find heaven to be a hell anyway, God could easily just make it the same place.


Lovely story btw :D

[Ceinwyn]

Suddenly he plunged into the lava and it covered him and filled his eyes, nose throat, lungs etc.

Suddenly I got bored with the nonsense, bullsh*t, idiocy, etc.

[Ceinwyn]

MRC Hans:

That's a brilliant allegory. I really like it.

I've always thought, if there was a "heaven", we'd have to work just as much, but it would be much more rewarding.

Anyways, good one.

[frisian]

Originally posted by El Greco


I'm not sure what you mean. Hell is supposed to be eternal, so several millennia must easily fit somewhere in the eternity, unless I have missed another bright twist in the Hell mythology.



Have the atheists gotten rid of emotions ? Again, I don't understand what you mean. Doess the presence of emotions make their exploitation by religion justifiable ?



Exactly. The theory of hell is one of the less logical theories in the already rickety logic of religion. Once more, I don't get what you mean.

If you are asking questions (?) I'm afraid you have to be more specific.

In theory how would time fit into an entity outside of time?

Wouldn't you posit that emotions really don't advance 'society' and we would be more logical without them? What do you deem them good for?

[sparklecat]

I'd say they advance society's survival. Go check out that thread on arguing against absolute nihilism for a reason why.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by frisian
In theory how would time fit into an entity outside of time?

I don't understand what "outside of time" is, and I am sure neither do theists when they speak of "eternal hell". Enough said.

Originally posted by frisian
Wouldn't you posit that emotions really don't advance 'society' and we would be more logical without them? What do you deem them good for?

I don't think at all that emotions don't "advance" society. This doesn't mean that we don't have to fight some of them. For example, the majority of people nowadays probably feel much less insecure than their ancestors who lived without permanent shelter and food. The advances of medicine also make people less frightened of diseases. I don't see anything wrong in fighting terror and insecurity.

But this wasn't my point, anyway. My point was that some crooks use feelings of insecurity in order to take advantage of people, and insecure people readily look for deceptive remedies for their insecurity, not the less harmful of which are drugs and religion.

Again, I don't understand your question very well. LSD and extremely dangerous activities can give you more "emotions" than you would possibly want. So what ?

[seayakin]

How can someone go to Hell who was a prisoner in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany or some other slave/gulag in Soviet Russia? How could anyone condemn such a person to Hell after experiencing Hell on Earth?

On a another note, I thought I read somewhere that Hell was originally a Greek construct adopted by early Christians.

[frisian]

Originally posted by El Greco


I don't understand what "outside of time" is, and I am sure neither do theists when they speak of "eternal hell". Enough said.



I don't think at all that emotions don't "advance" society. This doesn't mean that we don't have to fight some of them. For example, the majority of people nowadays probably feel much less insecure than their ancestors who lived without permanent shelter and food. The advances of medicine also make people less frightened of diseases. I don't see anything wrong in fighting terror and insecurity.

But this wasn't my point, anyway. My point was that some crooks use feelings of insecurity in order to take advantage of people, and insecure people readily look for deceptive remedies for their insecurity, not the less harmful of which are drugs and religion.

Again, I don't understand your question very well. LSD and extremely dangerous activities can give you more "emotions" than you would possibly want. So what ?

Enough said? Ok, if you say so. Close your mind, what you'll find...

Perhaps you don't understand my question because you don't know how to approach it rather than not understanding how to answer it.

Drugs like what? Caffeine?

Huh? Dangerous activities? So balance is your proposal? Where does one come to that conclusion?

[Iacchus]

I understand that hell is like a sado-masochist's paradise, derived from the love of self.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by frisian
Enough said? Ok, if you say so. Close your mind, what you'll find...

Oh, I guess you can understand "out of time". If you do, then please don't explain. I've had enough of this in P&R already.

Originally posted by frisian
Perhaps you don't understand my question because you don't know how to approach it rather than not understanding how to answer it.

I don't understand your question because you have not made a single coherent question. A question mark is not a valid question. Take for example the following questions of yours:

Originally posted by frisian
Drugs like what? Caffeine?

Huh? Dangerous activities? So balance is your proposal? Where does one come to that conclusion?

"Proposal" about what ? "Drugs" for what ? And what exactly is the "conclusion" that you are talking about ?

If you think you are making sense, well, you are not. Of course, you are ready to assume it is my problem that I don't understand. Guess what, I'm equally ready to assume it is your problem that you don't make any sense.

[evildave]

Originally posted by seayakin
How can someone go to Hell who was a prisoner in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany or some other slave/gulag in Soviet Russia? How could anyone condemn such a person to Hell after experiencing Hell on Earth?

On a another note, I thought I read somewhere that Hell was originally a Greek construct adopted by early Christians.

How can someone go to a hell at all?

What sort of twisted psychology would be required to punish someone "forever" for anything?

If it's actually to be forever, there really isn't a lesson to be taught, or a situation to apply any lesson to, so from this perspective, it's only torture for torture's sake.

In other words, the punishing God (of certain Christians who believe that way) is a brutal sadist.

Some even believe that animals and babies and such go to hell, because they couldn't ever be able to "accept Jesus into their hearts". So, their god tortures animals, too. Your favorite childhood pet you buried and cried over? Burning for eternity in hell. That baby splattered and charred in a nasty traffic wreck? Burning eternally.

Perverse, ugly, utterly abominable.

They want me to think (correction: fail to think) like them? What person of real conscience ever could?

[Iacchus]

I understand that you find what you desired most out of life -- or, what you loved "interiorly" -- when you enter the spiritual world. Whereas the only reason for the existence of hell, is to provide a place for those who wish "molest" the good, and make heaven a "living hell."

[frisian]

Originally posted by El Greco


Oh, I guess you can understand "out of time". If you do, then please don't explain. I've had enough of this in P&R already.



I don't understand your question because you have not made a single coherent question. A question mark is not a valid question. Take for example the following questions of yours:



"Proposal" about what ? "Drugs" for what ? And what exactly is the "conclusion" that you are talking about ?

If you think you are making sense, well, you are not. Of course, you are ready to assume it is my problem that I don't understand. Guess what, I'm equally ready to assume it is your problem that you don't make any sense.

Aye, I see. If I get a chance I will slow down and explain clearer.

[seayakin]

Originally posted by evildave


How can someone go to a hell at all?

What sort of twisted psychology would be required to punish someone "forever" for anything?

If it's actually to be forever, there really isn't a lesson to be taught, or a situation to apply any lesson to, so from this perspective, it's only torture for torture's sake.

In other words, the punishing God (of certain Christians who believe that way) is a brutal sadist.

Some even believe that animals and babies and such go to hell, because they couldn't ever be able to "accept Jesus into their hearts". So, their god tortures animals, too. Your favorite childhood pet you buried and cried over? Burning for eternity in hell. That baby splattered and charred in a nasty traffic wreck? Burning eternally.

Perverse, ugly, utterly abominable.

They want me to think (correction: fail to think) like them? What person of real conscience ever could?

Just to make it clear, I do not believe hell exists in the religious sense of the word. It is an irrational concept used to enforce a moral code on a gullible populace.

[evildave]

It's just interesting that they'd presume to be THE standard or morality because of their god, yet portray their very god as a degenerate, sadistic monster.

[Ruby]

]Originally posted by sparklecat
I've noticed that certain Christians hold onto this literal view of Hell, to the point of seeming to take some perverse glee in describing the torments of the damned. I'm wondering how apparently otherwise caring, compassionate people can hold to a belief that leads to those they love being sent to a place such as this for the smallest of sins given, and not seem to have a problem with it... even seem to take comfort in knowing that their enemies are going there.

It's incomprehensible to me. I personally just never really thought about it, and literally could not believe in it when I did face up to what this part of Biblical Christianity actually meant. Also, I wonder how this doctrine got started- a mechanism for keeping people inside the religion? [/B]

Well, as far as I know, it's not an Old testament concept. The Jewish faith does not believe in Hell like the Christians do.

I have often wondered too if the doctrine on Hell was just a way to keep people from leaving Christianity. I have wondered who really authored the bible passages that speaks of it in the first place.

Fear, fear fear. That seems to be the biggest motivaton behind so much in Christianity...although so many Christians can't see it. So many who have doubts, but still cling to Christianity, would never admit that they hold on due to a deep seated fear that "Hell" might still be for real.

My first "sermons" on "Hell" that I heard came when I was part of a 1st United Pentecostal Church.....they are ultra legalistic. They seemed to have it in for everyone. :hit: They constantly preached about all the billions who were going to Hell.

They did not just condemn "unbelievers" to hell, but they also condemned "Trinitarian" Christians " to hell. They believed the Trinity to be false doctrine and of the devil!!!! They were "Oneness" believers......maybe you've heard of them....or maybe you've seen them. The women don't wear any make-up, pants or jewelry. They wear long dresses or skirts, and never cut their hair..........most wear their hair up in huge buns...some are very fancy buns.

There was so much talk of hell and so much talk of how many were going to hell while I was a 1st United Pentecostal . They felt they were special and "God's" chosen people who were bound for "Glory". They made "Heaven" out to be small....just the right size for UPCI (Oneness Pentecostals)....but they preached that "Hell" was huge and getting bigger all the time due to all the people going there. :mad: What I really hate and feel ashamed about is that I developed the same mindset for while. It did not last too long because I could not handle the idea of all those people, in fact, anyone, going to "hell". It weighed on me heavily.

They certainly used the fear of hell to force someone into giving themselves to Jesus and becoming a Oneness Pentecostal.

All the legalism of the UPCI drove me out of it. I was depressed and could not live by all their rules anymore. I could not accept that so many were bound for "hell".

I attended mostly non-denominational Charismatic churches after that. Some of those churches talked about "hell" too, but not as bad as the UPCI. They tried to tone that aspect down and focus on other things.......like "signs and wonders". Some of them also did care more about loving people and accepting them, instead of preaching fire and brimstone. It was one of the few things that I appreciated about about the nondenominational churches I attended.

In time, I was no longer able to believe in "hell" as it had been presented by the Christian church. I was still a Christian, but began to look at scripture differently....since you can make it say what you want it to say anyway!:D

I came on JREF and made such cool friends who helped make such a difference in my life. How could I believe they were bound for "hell". It was not possible!!! In time, a short time, I went through a total deconversion.

I now find it shocking and sad to read on Christian forums where they complain about there being too many churches that are "lukewarm" and are afraid to preach about "Hell"......and put too much focus on love. They criticize what they refer to as a "touchy/feely" approach that some churches employ.:con2:

I have been angered by the hardheartedness and mercilessness of those who, as you said, "take some perverse glee in describing the torments of the damned". Rapture ready forum....and other Christian forums have their fair share of those who get their jollies talking about how torturous they think "hell" is. The more hideous and agonizing they make it sound, the more they seem to get off on it.................even though some will say how desperately they don't want anyone to end up in "hell". Even if they say that, I still get the feeling that on some level they can't wait for people to be sent there.

Anyhow, there are a lot more christians who don't believe in "hell" nowadays.....compared to about 20 yrs ago. I'm glad about that.

Well, it's very late........4:45am...:slp:..I woke up with a headache a little while ago and could not get back to sleep. My head feels much better now, so I need to get back to bed as I have my two little ones to take care of tomorrow, and they wake me up early.

I hope I did not ramble too much....and hope I made sense!!!!:)

Good night or good morning...as the case now is!!!!!

[jimmygun]

There is a mentality among humans that allows them to eat cake while others (removed by oceans or mountains or city blocks) go hungry. The easiest way to rationalize their suffering is to blame them for their own predicament.

It is a small step for the pious to accept eternal torture of others as long as the pious are not sharing that suffering. The easiest rationalization is to suggest that, once in heaven, the condemned will no longer be of any consequence to the saved.

That being said I think the pious would be comfortable in heaven even if they could hear the screams and agony of their loved ones and the condemned. They would just rationalize it away.

[evildave]

No, I'm sure they'd simply move to a quieter part of heaven. Sort of like seeing a bleeding, writhing person and walking away quickly, leaving them to die, before anyone sees you and expects you to do anything about it.

[El Greco]

I wish you could all read the series "Life hereafter" (http://www.arkas.gr/lang/en05.htm) from the Greek humorist Arkas. Everything takes place in paradise (with a few visits in hell), after death. It's hilarious and bitter at the same time.