Sincere Theists, Deists, Christians... Where are you?

[Skeptical Greg]

---------------- Do you think this is funny? --------------------

Eample # 1 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=357323&highlight=homosexual#post357323)

Or this?

Example # 2 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=357341&highlight=homosexual#post357341)

Are you embarrassed? Ashamed?

Or, do you agree and approve?

Is this the voice you would have proclaiming your message?

This may be some kind of joke to the poster that calls them self " muscleman ",
but the silence of anyone who professes to hold any Christian values is deafening.

At the risk of sounding a bit self righteous, I would like to say the bigoted, intolerant,
ignorant demeanor of this poster, has lead me to look inward a bit, and realize my demeanor
at times, does not speak well of the values I profess to believe in.

I hope, that in the future, I can present more of a voice of reason, for the cause of skeptical
thought, and that none of you will hesitate to point out to me, any difference of opinion
that you may have, to enable me to reevaluate my position.

[Akots]

Even discounting the fact that i'm not christian... do you really expect us to be heard over and above people like that?

I already feel bad about reffering to my religion in any argument, when the assumption is that religion is wrong, and I am evil. This person speaks for all christians about as much as he speaks for all HUMANS. I take no pleasure in sharing this planet with him and his ilk

EDIT: I find your resolution genuinely heartening and encouraging... despite the nature of the catalyst.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Akots
Even discounting the fact that i'm not christian... do you really expect us to be heard over and above people like that?



It is really sad, and the reason for my post.


To draw more attention, one would have to embrace the same tactics..

Catch 22..:(

[Crow T. Robot]

As a Christian, a person's number one goal should be to convince others to become Christians. Your examples of Muscleman's posts show a mindset much different than my own. How can I convince others by name calling, drawing false conclusions, etc.? Such people seem to be more interested in glorying in their own perceived self-righteousness than in providing an example others might be interested in following. He doesn't speak for me, or represent what I beleive.

[Plutarck]

Originally posted by Crow T. Robot
As a Christian, a person's number one goal should be to convince others to become Christians.

So Christianity is kind of like Amway, then? ;)

[BobM]

As a Christian, a person's number one goal should be to convince others to become Christians.Hmm.. I disagree, partly anyway. A christian's #1 goal should be bringing themselves in-line with God's will. All else will follow.

You can't change other people, you can only change yourself, and hope others will follow your example.

[Franko]

BobM:
Hmm.. I disagree, partly anyway. A christian's #1 goal should be bringing themselves in-line with God's will. All else will follow.

You can't change other people, you can only change yourself, and hope others will follow your example.

You are a very wise Man, Mr. Bob.

[Finella]

Actually, as a Chistian (or, rather, a liberal protestant Christian ... :) ) my number-one goal is to discover that which is the most "true" and God-like within me and bring that into my lived life.

But this is the problem with Christianity and any other religious faith. There is such diversity within every religion, and each diverse denomination claims to be the real thing. Only the ones who are the most obnoxious, loud and bigoted will be noticed. And I'm sorry, it's against my religion to be like that.

:)

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Crow T. Robot
As a Christian, a person's number one goal should be to convince others to become Christians.

Now THAT's scary! You NUMBER ONE goal is to proselytize? Wow, stay away from me, please:eek:

[Akots]

Whoa whoa WHOA... now hold-onna-minute there...

HUGE difference between evangelizing, and encouraging. The idea of forcing one's beliefs onto someone else is likely repugnant to most decent people.

You want someone to join your faith, yes... but you don't want them to join out of scare tactics or blind zeal. Might make the leaders some money, but it provides nothing in the way of upstanding representatives of a faith seeking respect. Which is the point. :)

[TheERK]

Originally posted by Diogenes


It is really sad, and the reason for my post.


To draw more attention, one would have to embrace the same tactics..

Catch 22..:(

You guys draw my attention far more than posters like muscleman, Franko, etc--there's no reason to read their posts if they aren't going to post new material. I think you are getting more attention from the people interested in debating, or reading an intelligent perspective, not the people interesting in trolling, flaming, and engaging in fruitless argument. Don't embrace similar tactics. Keep things the way they are, and eventually more and more people will learn to ignore the trolls.

[Crow T. Robot]

Originally posted by Hypocolius


Now THAT's scary! You NUMBER ONE goal is to proselytize? Wow, stay away from me, please:eek:

Ok, bad paragraph organization on my part. What I'm trying to convey is that it's my belief that the namecalling, etc., that Muscleman was doing in the quoted material will cause no one to change their opinions. As Christians, we all should be attempting to change opinions (or proselytize, if you will) by setting a POSITIVE example. Who will want to join us, if we berate them and judge them? I'm NOT going to show up at your door (literally or virtually) with a bunch of Chick tracts. I WILL talk about my beliefs in response to a question like the one that started this thread. And that aspect of being a Christian is very important. We're supposed to be spreading the "Good News," not alienating everyone we meet.

[Akots]

It's a sad truth that the people who lead by example are never as loud as the people shouting on the streets... but when they ARE heard, worlds can be move. :)

[chessmanskeptic]

I admit that I AM A LIGHT CHRISTIAN!

So Stop Bugging ME ALREADY.:(

I am not a flammer like muscleman. I am skeptical of my religion. I do believe in most of its founding principals. I do believe that homosexuals have a right to be homosexual. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I know what it says in the bible, I only think that it applied to the time period and conditions!

[chessmanskeptic]

And one more thing! I do not agree with Muscleman's viewpoints on predestination! Or Franko's for that matter

[Franko]

Chessmanskeptic: (skeptic?)
I am not a flammer like muscleman. I am skeptical of my religion. I do believe in most of its founding principals. I do believe that homosexuals have a right to be homosexual. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I know what it says in the bible, I only think that it applied to the time period and conditions!

Hmmm … ?

I think that God makes it very clear She expects people to reproduce and raise children. That “be fruitful and multiply” comment is a manifestation of what is occurring in the larger reality.

But I think that is where the source of the misunderstanding lies. I have absolutely no reason to believe that God finds consensual homosexuality an invalid worldline. In fact, all of the evidence tells me, that if two people are happy being homosexual, then God is happy for them.

You have a duty to your fellow humans (all consciousnesses really), but if you are not harming anyone by your actions, then you are not harming God.

Would you agree with this assessment Chessman? I am interested to hear you opinion. You’re definitely a “free-thinker” in mine.

[Checkmite]

Deism's approach to life - the meat of its social philosphy, so to speak - is Classical Humanism (very similar to Secular Humanism, but with one important exception). As such, I believe the decision as to the composition of each man's moral system. and the arrangement of his ethical priorities, rests ultimately with himself. Consistently, I reject the notion that anything is inherently wrong with benign activities such as homosexuality, childbirth out of wedlock, and the like. The negative reaction of the majority to such behaviors is due, I think, to the misguided expectation that everyones' moral system is or should be the same, as well as confusion between societical norms/mores and personal morals and ethics.

[Franko]

Korosi:
The negative reaction of the majority to such behaviors is due, I think, to the misguided expectation that everyones' moral system is or should be the same, as well as confusion between societical norms/mores and personal morals and ethics.

Never-the-less, unless you are going to claim that NOTHING is constant across the course of Eternity, then everyones' moral system must ultimately be the same, at least to some measureable degree. To claim otherwise is analogous to asserting there is no moral standard of any kind at all. Murder or Robbery would be no more a sin than any other whim or desire.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Franko


Never-the-less, unless you are going to claim that NOTHING is constant across the course of Eternity, then everyones' moral system must ultimately be the same, at least to some measureable degree. To claim otherwise is analogous to asserting there is no moral standard of any kind at all. Murder or Robbery would be no more a sin than any other whim or desire.

Well to be sure, I would class Murder or Robbery to be outrages for certain - how ever, there's no denying that the Murderer or Thief obviously doesn't feel as strongly about it as I do - which is why societical norms and mores exist, to keep such extreme deviance from manifesting.

[chessmanskeptic]

If I had to declare myself as anything except christian, it would be a humanist. You might want to consider reading "The Unconscious God" by Viktor Frankl. It is a good book when it comes to combining Logotherapy and Theology.

[Tom Head]

Originally posted by Diogenes
---------------- Do you think this is funny? --------------------

Eample # 1 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=357323&highlight=homosexual#post357323)

Or this?

Example # 2 (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=357341&highlight=homosexual#post357341)

Are you embarrassed? Ashamed?

Or, do you agree and approve?

Is this the voice you would have proclaiming your message?Speaking as a theist: no, no, no, and no. They don't embarrass or shame me because I think I have much more in common with the rest of you than I do with them (and I've never been that big on guilt by association anyway); I don't make a point of disagreeing with them because it's like arguing with that old Eliza program (the one that seemed to respond "Come, come, elucidate your thoughts!" regardless of what I actually said); and I consider my theism more of a personal belief than a message.


Cheers,

[Franko]

Well to be sure, I would class Murder or Robbery to be outrages for certain - how ever, there's no denying that the Murderer or Thief obviously doesn't feel as strongly about it as I do - which is why societical norms and mores exist, to keep such extreme deviance from manifesting.

Right, by administering positive or negative (in this case) reinforcements to alter behavior for the good (benefit) of the majority (or the rulemakers, the most powerful).

This is exactly what God is doing only more subtly and on a far more massive and pervasive scale. She's got you playing Her game 17 "hours" out of every 24.

[SortingItAllOut]

Hello,

The real problem as I see it is that Christianity isn't black and white. In fact, it really doesn't exist at all. There are a multitude of people who *claim* to be Christian. But what does *that* mean? Catholics, Baptists, Southern Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, non-denomenational folks, etc. etc. etc. all have a particular view. Even within these groups there are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of different subgroups that believe this or that. Some believe the Bible is inerrant, some don't. Some believe that certain books are god inspired, some believe other books are. Some think that the head of their church has the god-given ability to be the final arbitor on what is true. Some believe that baptism should be in a dunk tank. For others, it is a little sprinkle on the head as a baby. Some believe that the "Lord's Supper" or "Communion" is symbolic, some believe that it is actually the flesh and blood of Christ. Some believe that this version of the Bible is the correct one, others believe that this one is. Some believe that people of different ethnic backgrounds are not supposed to marry and try to quote the bible to support this. Some think alcohol is okay, others do not. Some think that tithing is only for the Old Testament times, others believe that it is always appropriate (especially churches!).

Whew.

My point is that I haven't even mentioned the notion that it all might be a bunch of hooey written down by lots and lots and lots of different folk and attributed to some all-powerful, all-knowing creator god. And it is not likely that we have enough information to discern *exactly* what the truth to life really is.

Muscleman and the like are certainly free to write until their fingers are worn out, but what is the point in wasting a second's time on what they have to say? Even if they do get something right once in a while, who cares? Even a broken clock is right twice a day... unless, of course, it is digital.;)

Engaging in these discussions, I think, is a good thing. Sometimes folks start the namecalling thing going, but generally not. I doubt seriously that anyone who is really an atheist is going to be converted by anything a Christian might post. And I think the reverse is true too. But, when an engaging discussion is cultivated here, I *REALLY* like it. If nothing else, it is nice to hear other points of view from time to time. I'm certain I don't have it all figured out and I often see a new way of looking at something because of something that you folks post.

I suppose too that the reason there aren't a lot of "Christians" in this forum is that it is run from a Skeptic's website. You tend not to find too many vegetarians eating at McDonalds as a general rule. Many folks, I fear, have never critically looked at what they believe and why.

Just my thoughts.

Take care,
Sort:)

[Graham]

So there are lucid and (relatively!) reasonable Christians here after all - you wouldn't know it from reading the R&P threads. Once you put a few people on ignore, far too many threads around here are, well pretty devoid of non-atheists/agnostics really.

Seriously guys, post more, the kooky freaks are giving you a bad name and some of us (me for one and apparently quite a few others) would really like to hear your opinions.

Graham

[Star Of The Sea]

Originally posted by Diogenes




At the risk of sounding a bit self righteous, I would like to say the bigoted, intolerant,
ignorant demeanor of this poster, has lead me to look inward a bit, and realize my demeanor
at times, does not speak well of the values I profess to believe in.

I hope, that in the future, I can present more of a voice of reason, for the cause of skeptical
thought, and that none of you will hesitate to point out to me, any difference of opinion
that you may have, to enable me to reevaluate my position.

What a breath of fresh air. :)

Well done, Diogenes. Having been on the recieving end of your invective in the past, I much prefer the tone of your more recent posts. Keep up the good work! :)

regards,

Luke