Are Miracles Possible?

[The idea]

Can every historical event be replicated? If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history?

[Zero]

Originally posted by The idea
Can every historical event be replicated? If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history? Anything is technically possible, it is more important to ask if something is probable, and if assuming past miracles adds anything to our knowledge. It is pretty useless to assume any past exceptions to a rule, because being an special case precludes the idea of making future predictions.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by The idea
Can every historical event be replicated? If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history? You're going to have to be more specific. There are a couple of loaded terms there. What do you mean by "miracle"? Or "replicated"? What kind of historical event are you referring to?

[The idea]

Maybe someone understands the concept of a miracle but doesn't see the difference between a certain kind of event never occurring and a certain kind of event being impossible.

Here's an example. It might be that no one in city A will ever walk from intersection B to intersection C carrying a slip of paper that has this message printed on it. However, provided that it is physically possible for someone to walk from intersection B to intersection C, it would seem to be possible for someone to walk that route while carrying such a slip of paper.

[wollery]

Depends what you mean by "miracle". If you mean an event the probability of which is vanishingly small, then of course they can, indeed have and will continue to occur. If, on the other hand, you mean an event which is impossible and requires the intervention of "God" then my answer is no, miracles never have and never will occur.

Allow me to elaborate;

80 year old woman pulled from rubble of Iranian city 8 days after it was destroyed by an earthquake, (her first words were "can I have a cup of tea", she must be English really ;) ). This is a highly improbable event, but not impossible. It was reported as "miraculous", but was in reality just extremely good luck for the woman.

Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!

[The idea]

Originally posted by Zero
Anything is technically possible, it is more important to ask if something is probable, and if assuming past miracles adds anything to our knowledge.
Does assuming that there haven't been any past miracles add anything to our knowledge?

Originally posted by Zero
It is pretty useless to assume any past exceptions to a rule, because being an special case precludes the idea of making future predictions.
Are you saying that if a rule broke down at some time in the past, then the rule cannot be used to make predictions about the future? Perhaps you are simply saying that it is unlikely that the exceptions themselves will obey any recognizable rule?

[The idea]

Originally posted by wollery
Depends what you mean by "miracle". [...]
80 year old woman pulled from rubble of Iranian city 8 days after it was destroyed by an earthquake, (her first words were "can I have a cup of tea", she must be English really ;) ). This is a highly improbable event, but not impossible. It was reported as "miraculous", but was in reality just extremely good luck for the woman.

For the purpose of answering this poll, the survival of the 80 year old woman 8 days after the earthquake would NOT count as a miracle. Thank you for the example.

Originally posted by wollery
If [...] you mean an event which is impossible and requires the intervention of "God" then my answer is no, miracles never have and never will occur.

Maybe we can distinguish between an event which is thought to be impossible and that cannot be explained by any known mechanism and an event which is actually impossible. Obviously an event which is impossible cannot possibly occur. However, I don't think that the matter at hand can be quite so easily disposed of.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by The idea
Maybe someone understands the concept of a miracle but doesn't see the difference between a certain kind of event never occurring and a certain kind of event being impossible. So, by asking if it is possible for a miracle to occur, are you asking if it is possible for the impossible to happen?

If that's the case, it's a simple answer.

[Skeptical Greg]

Miracles can only exist in our imagination...


If something does happen... It's not a miracle..

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by The idea
Can every historical event be replicated? If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history?

Before I vote, you'll have to define 'miracle'.

Is it something contrary to the laws of physics? Or will a merely improbable divine intervention count as a miracle?

That is something on the order of Joshua praying the sun to stand still cannot happen, but a conveniently timed series of plagues is a possibility. :p

[The Don]

Originally posted by The idea
1) Can every historical event be replicated?

2) If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history?

No historical events can be fully replicated. At a macro level they can be approximated (i.e. I can walk up the stairs for a second time) but of course on a micro level everything has changed (the carpet on the stairs is a little shorter, the temperature is slightly different).

Any event could be so long as you have.....

Complete knowledge of EVERYTHING to do with the circumstances (down to a sub-atomic level) AND the ability to run the event through sufficient times for the same set of chaotic elements to have the same values

so practically not


Of course this leaves the door open for miracles if we're very lax at recording the input parameters and the outputs so that it seems that miraculous things happened

[The idea]

Originally posted by Upchurch
What do you mean by "miracle"?
It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. Suppose someone you know made a small, one-of-a-kind object by hand from clay and gave it to you. A few years later you are alone in a room with the door closed and the window closed and you are wide awake and clear-headed and there is no noise or other distraction. While rearranging objects on a high shelf, you accidentally knock down the one-of-a-kind clay object. It hits the floor and breaks into many pieces.

You are upset about the mishap and throw a blanket over the pieces and spend fifteen minutes staring at the blanket and thinking about how unfortunate the accident was. Then you lift up the blanket and see the one-of-a-kind clay object whole and unbroken.

Now, observe that:
(1) This is a description of an experience.
(2) There is no way to explain how, in the ordinary course of events, it could occur.
(3) It would do you no good for someone to try to argue that it is impossible. If you actually witnessed the events, then you would have to conclude that some events that are thought to be impossible can nevertheless sometimes occur.

Originally posted by Upchurch
[What do you mean by] "replicated"? What kind of historical event are you referring to?
I wanted to invoke the concept of replication as it is used in experimental science or the million dollar challenge. How many concepts of replication are there? I don't have any particular kind of historical event in mind.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Miracles can only exist in our imagination...I dunno, in an overly-poetic sense, the birth of every child is a miracle. It's a miracle everytime I beat a friend of mine playing the new Harry Potter Quidach (sp?) game.

[Tricky]

Thanks to Ambrose Bierce, (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/m.html) here is a definition I think we can all agree on:

Miracle - n.
An act or event out of the order of nature and unaccountable, as beating a normal hand of four kings and an ace with four aces and a king.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I dunno, in an overly-poetic sense, the birth of every child is a miracle. It's a miracle everytime I beat a friend of mine playing the new Harry Potter Quidach (sp?) game.
Yes, that is an overly-poetic sense. For the purpose of this poll, such events should be classified as non-miracles.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Tricky
Thanks to [...] Ambrose Bierce, here is a definition I think we can all agree on:
---------------------------------------
Miracle - n.
An act or event out of the order of nature and unaccountable, as beating a normal hand of four kings and an ace with four aces and a king.

That's amusing, but it is not otherwise helpful.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by The idea

It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. In leu of there being no possible phsyical explination, then I'd have to say that miracles are not possible.

Which is a little circular since we're basing the definition of a term based on the real world using a hypothetical situation which may not be absolutely reflective of the real world.

That isn't to say that there may be phenomena out there that we currently can not, or just simple have not, explained yet, but are, in principle, capable of explaining. A miracle, then, would be a phenomena that, in principle, could not be explained as a result of naturalistic causes.

edited to add: after reviewing the poll choices, though, I have to admit that I don't know if any miracles have occured or will occur. I have no reason to believe that they will or have, but I cannot say definitively that they won't or haven't simply because I haven't experienced everything that has or will happen.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Miracles can only exist in our imagination...
If something does happen... It's not a miracle..
If something continues to happen, then it's not a miracle.

Can miracles exist in our imagination? I imagine a miracle occurring. Having a very lucid imagination, I then apply your argument. Here, within the world of my imagination, that weird event actually occurred. Therefore it's not a miracle.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I dunno, in an overly-poetic sense, the birth of every child is a miracle. It's a miracle everytime I beat a friend of mine playing the new Harry Potter Quidach (sp?) game.


Sounds like your imagination to me... Point made..:D

[Tricky]

Originally posted by The idea

It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. Suppose someone you know made a small, one-of-a-kind object by hand from clay and gave it to you. A few years later you are alone in a room with the door closed and the window closed and you are wide awake and clear-headed and there is no noise or other distraction. While rearranging objects on a high shelf, you accidentally knock down the one-of-a-kind clay object. It hits the floor and breaks into many pieces.

You are upset about the mishap and throw a blanket over the pieces and spend fifteen minutes staring at the blanket and thinking about how unfortunate the accident was. Then you lift up the blanket and see the one-of-a-kind clay object whole and unbroken.
This could only be a miracle if it was proven, witnessed and verified that the piece was actually broken and actually reassembled itself. It would have to make all other explanations completely impossible. Ideally, it would be better if it reassembled in front of your eyes, not while covered with a blanket.

In life, this sort of "miracle" happens all the time. It is almost always the result of someone having a thought and believing that thought to be reality. Since one cannot be a fair judge of how "wide awake and clear-headed" one's self is, the most likely and sadly mundane possibility is that the person imagined it being broken. To disprove this, one couldn't be alone in the room. Some other reliable person would have to verify that the object was in fact broken and reformed.

This is precicely the reason that anecdotes cannot be considered evidence. No matter how honest a person is, he is capable of making a mistake in observation.

Just last Friday I saw a newspaper torn into tiny shreds, but then rejoined to be whole again. I was only a few feet away, wide awake and very clear-headed and I can verify that there the newspaper was torn and that there was no other newspaper visible to replace it. Yes indeed, your eyes and mind can deceive you.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by The idea

I wanted to invoke the concept of replication as it is used in experimental science or the million dollar challenge. How many concepts of replication are there? I don't have any particular kind of historical event in mind.

I thought divine intervention is what made it a miracle.

Otherwise, anything that's 'unexplained' is a miracle.

When it comes to the million dollar challenge we are talking about people who claim some power that can be tested.

Not powers that resemble Biblical miracles, but powers that resemble magic tricks.

Has Randi ever tested a faith healer? I know he exposed quite a few, but I mean tested for the million dollar challenge?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by The idea

If something continues to happen, then it's not a miracle.

My point, is that here is no reason to believe that any phenomena has been or will be restricted to a single occurance.. I'll gladly admit my mistake when shown something to the contrary..


Can miracles exist in our imagination? I imagine a miracle occurring. Having a very lucid imagination, I then apply your argument. Here, within the world of my imagination, that weird event actually occurred. Therefore it's not a miracle.

Do you intend to be realistic about this, or just end the discussion by suggesting that anything we can imagine, be given equal credibility with all things experienced?

[The idea]

Originally posted by Diogenes
My point is that here is no reason to believe that any phenomena has been or will be restricted to a single occurrence.. I'll gladly admit my mistake when shown something to the contrary..

Earlier you seemed to argue against miracles on the grounds that "a miracle is an impossible event and it isn't possible for the impossible to occur" or something like that. Now that you are no longer misrepresenting the concept of miracles as being self-contradictory, we have no quarrel.

Originally posted by Diogenes
Do you intend to be realistic about this, or just end the discussion by suggesting that anything we can imagine, be given equal credibility with all things experienced?

I was simply applying your concept of a miracle within one given model of the universe. It seems that you are now moving to a concept of miracles that depends on comparing different models of the universe.

(In particular, a permissive model allows for events that you classify as miracles. However, to classify them as miracles, you need to observe that, in some other model, those kinds of events cannot occur.)

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm still comfortable with : " A miracle is an impossible event.. " ( and does not occur )

[geni]

Originally posted by wollery
Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!

How is it imposible? All you need is browine motion and some very^999999999^99999999^99999999 large odds.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I thought divine intervention is what made it a miracle.

Who has actually observed divine intervention? Wouldn't one have to recognize a divine being? It seems more likely that an event classified as a miracle will be assumed to have been caused by divine intervention.

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Otherwise, anything that's 'unexplained' is a miracle.
Suppose you buy an old textbook from a store that sells used books. You notice some intelligent comments written in it. You also notice some stupid comments in the same handwriting. Maybe two different people had similar handwriting? Maybe an intelligent person wrote the stupid comments as a joke? Maybe an intelligent person wrote the intelligent comments and then suffered brain damage? There is something unexplained. Is it therefore a miracle?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by The idea
.....
There is something unexplained. Is it therefore a miracle?

You sure went to a lot of trouble for that one...

Can you understand the difference between something that cannot be explained, and something that has an explaination that is yet to be revealed?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by The idea

Who has actually observed divine intervention?


To the best of my knowledge, nobody. Of course some claim it.

I thought is was a matter of the definition of the word 'miracle'.

The sun standing still has to be a made up story. Fire from heaven could be a natural phenomenon interpreted piously. Turning water into wine could be a conjuring trick. All are alleged miracles.

I don't get your analogy about the bookstore.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Diogenes
I'm still comfortable with : " A miracle is an impossible event.. " ( and does not occur )
Are you comfortable with that as a definition of "miracle" or are you comfortable with that as a conclusion?

Do the words "impossible" and "inexplicable" mean the same thing to you?

[Johnny Pneumatic]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wollery
Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!







I've walked on water(frozen).:)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by The idea
It's hard to construct a definition, but maybe an example will be helpful. Suppose someone you know made a small, one-of-a-kind object by hand from clay and gave it to you. A few years later you are alone in a room with the door closed and the window closed and you are wide awake and clear-headed and there is no noise or other distraction. While rearranging objects on a high shelf, you accidentally knock down the one-of-a-kind clay object. It hits the floor and breaks into many pieces.

You are upset about the mishap and throw a blanket over the pieces and spend fifteen minutes staring at the blanket and thinking about how unfortunate the accident was. Then you lift up the blanket and see the one-of-a-kind clay object whole and unbroken.
Under that scenario, I'm afraid I'll have to judge miracles as "It is not possible for miracles to occur".

[BillyJoe]

The word "miracle" has suffered the same fate as "belief", "free will", "god" and "spirituality" By redefining them we can all believe in them. But by the original definitions none of these things exist.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
The word "miracle" has suffered the same fate as "belief", "free will", "god" and "spirituality" By redefining them we can all believe in them. But by the original definitions none of these things exist.
That is true. In comman parlance, "miracle" has come to mean anything that is fairly uncommon, such as a person recovering from a normally deadly disease. We all speak imprecisely of the "miracles of modern science". I'm not ready to throw away a perfectly good word, only to use it for something non-existant.

But the funny thing about these kinds of "miracles" is that the more we learn about our world, the more miracles occur. Some religious groups claim miraculous divine intervention when someone is unexpectedly healed, but I'm guessing most of these healings have also occurred with the miraculous mundane intervention of medical science. There are a few groups who refuse medical treatment. Oddly, they don't have as many "miracles".

So call these things "miracles" if you like. I have no qualms with the use of the word. But when you give thanks for the miracles, don't forget to thank the humans who made them possible.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by The idea

Are you comfortable with that as a definition of "miracle" or are you comfortable with that as a conclusion?


Not in the sense that I use definitions.. I have no reason to believe miracles are possible. I certainly do not use the word ' miracle ' as the definition of ' impossible '..

Do the words "impossible" and "inexplicable" mean the same thing to you?


I haven't really thought of it that way, but if you were to suggest that something could never be explained, I would conclude that such a thing would be impossible..

In other words, " If something does happen, it must have an explanation.

[Ladewig]

After reading the thread up to this point, I have a better idea about what is being talked about and I am prepared to vote "no."

I think Charles Dickens summed it up best with:

"Why do you doubt your senses'' asked Marley's ghost.

"Because,'' said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato."

The sense are easily deceived by both internal and external mechanisms. No matter how real the "unbreaking" of an irrepairable object seemed to you, I will need more evidence than your sworn testimony.

[BillyJoe]

Tricky,

Originally posted by Tricky
. I'm not ready to throw away a perfectly good word, only to use it for something non-existant.Yes, you can even believe in God if you want to and still be an atheist. :rolleyes:

BillyJoe

[wollery]

Originally posted by Wollery
Jesus was supposed to have walked on water, physically impossible, ergo it didn't happen!Originally posted by geni
How is it imposible? All you need is browine motion and some very^999999999^99999999^99999999 large odds. I assume you mean Brownian motion, in which case you really need to check your physics text book. Brownian motion is the random motion of fluid particles (eg gas or water molecules) which will suspend small particles, such as dust or smoke, within the fluid. It does not affect large bodies and does not have any effect at a surface boundary.

In order to suspend a human wholly above water would require either a floatation device (ie a raft or boat) or a powerful directed jet of water, which would hurt a lot and be rather obvious.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Tricky
[...] one cannot be a fair judge of how "wide awake and clear-headed" one's self is [...]
Should people who live alone not operate motor vehicles? If it is hazardous to drive while partly asleep and if you cannot fairly judge whether or not you are yourself wide awake, then would it be advisable to always consult someone before driving?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Tricky,

Yes, you can even believe in God if you want to and still be an atheist. :rolleyes:

BillyJoe
When discussing philosophy, I am an atheist. But I regularly say things like "Damn, that's three red lights in a row. I must have offended the traffic gods." It's intended to humorously comment on the sometimes unfair nature of the universe and attribute it to a capricious deity. Don't even tell me you've never run afoul of the traffic gods.:p

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Tricky

Don't even tell me you've never run afoul of the traffic gods.:p

I have coached Youth Soccer for upwards of 23 years and am a firm believer in the Great Goal Gods. :D

[Abdul Alhazred]

I'm still lacking a definite definition of 'miracle' as used here.

1) Does it mean Divine intervention, as I have always understood the word?

2) Does it mean something not explained by science and ignored or denied by the scientific community?

3) Does it mean something truly amazing, such as the birth of a baby?

Without a precise definition, the question means nothing.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I'm still lacking a definite definition of 'miracle' as used here.

1) Does it mean Divine intervention, as I have always understood the word?

No, someone might assume that an event occurred as a result of divine intervention, but the assumption is based on the character of the event and not on any independent evidence of actual divine intervention.

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
2) Does it mean something not explained by science and ignored or denied by the scientific community?

No, we cannot classify an event as a miracle merely because it is not explained by science.

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
3) Does it mean something truly amazing, such as the birth of a baby?
No.

Here is an attempt to ask "Is it true that some miracle has occurred or will occur?":
Is the totality of events such that the simplest description of it includes a reference to some specific events?

Here's a simple mathematical construction that might help clarify the idea:
Suppose for any whole number n from 1 to 999, if n is not equal to either 407 or 831, then f(n)=(1000 - n)
and
f(407)=226 and f(831)=539

The values 407 and 831 are "miracle points" in the domain of f.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by The idea
Here's a simple mathematical construction that might help clarify the idea:
Suppose for any whole number n from 1 to 999, if n is not equal to either 407 or 831, then f(n)=(1000 - n)
and
f(407)=226 and f(831)=539

The values 407 and 831 are "miracle points" in the domain of f.
If you are saying (correct me if this isn't what you are saying) that they are miracle points because they violate the functional rule that applies to all the other numbers, I'm not sure what this has to do with miracles.

If the analogy here is that the function represents the rules by which the universe operates, and 407 and 831 represent miracles because they don't follow those rules, it seems we just have an incomplete set of rules.

Might a better representation of a miracle be:

Suppose for any whole number from 1 to 999, f(n)=(1000-n). There are no standard exceptions, for any standard exception would be a rule itself. So, normally f(407)=593. The miracle would kick in only if the function should apply to 407, but one day, for no reason, the function was run, and out popped 226. If a rule could not be discovered to account for it, then there's your miracle.

Was that even close to what you were getting at?

edited to correct abysmally stupid math error

[The idea]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
If the analogy here is that the function represents the rules by which the universe operates [...]
I think it is simpler than you imagine. Imagine a universe whose total history consists of a sequence of 999 moments of time. The state of the universe at any given moment is identified by means of a single number. The miracle then (unfortunately) applies to the entire state of the universe at a given moment. You could make a better analogy if you could make a miracle spatially localized.

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
[...] it seems we just have an incomplete set of rules.

If the actual laws of nature describe what actually is, then there can be no "violation." However, what if the simplest description of the actual laws of nature has to make reference to some particular, exceptional events? Then a student of the universe has to throw some ad hoc information into the laws. No conceivable event is then theoretically shocking. If we know that there are some weird events that don't fit into the general pattern, then we simply have to observe them and formulate the laws to allow for them.

[The idea]

You will notice that a miracle would have to linger through time for it to have a real benefit. For example, if jar of copper pennies turns into a jar of gold pennies for a few minutes and then turns back into (and remains as) a jar of copper pennies, you won't be able to profit from it. Ideally, it would turn into gold and remain as gold not only long enough for you to spend it, but also permanently so that the purchaser doesn't get cheated.

[The idea]

Maybe I could have phrased that better. If a local miracle is reversed by a subsequent miracle, then the original local miracle would be indistinguishable from a hallucination or mass hallucination.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by The idea
Can every historical event be replicated? If some historical events cannot be replicated, then does that leave open the possibility that some miracles have occurred in history?

Hi,

I voted that miracles don't happen, period. I don't believe they are possible at all. I think there are perfectly logical explanations for the things that people ascribe the miraculous to........especially what Christians constantly think are miracles.

I don't believe in the miracles of the bible. The fact is, if those miracles happened back then, they should still happen with Christians today...but they don't.

Sorry to answer this question using only Christianity as an example. I just deconverted from it last year.....and the topic of Christians and Christianity is always on my tongue.

I never saw or experienced the miraculous as a Christian....but what I did see were people who "psyched" themselves up to believe something was miraculous or who relied on being emotional and demonstrative during "Praise and Worship" in hopes of causing something amazing or miraculous to happen. It was all very sad and pititful....and very annoying!!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Miracles can only exist in our imagination...


If something does happen... It's not a miracle..

I like your point of view!!!!:)

[BillyJoe]

Tricky,

Originally posted by Tricky
When discussing philosophy, I am an atheist. But I regularly say things like "Damn, that's three red lights in a row. I must have offended the traffic gods." It's intended to humorously comment on the sometimes unfair nature of the universe and attribute it to a capricious deity. Don't even tell me you've never run afoul of the traffic gods.:p OKay, you won the argument :D
But now I know why they call you tricky. :D

BillyJoe :cool:

[The idea]

Originally posted by Ruby
I voted that miracles don't happen, period. I don't believe they are possible at all.

The statement that they're not possible seems stronger than the statement that they don't happen. So the word "period" at the end of your first sentence seems premature.

Originally posted by Ruby
I think there are perfectly logical explanations for the things that people ascribe the miraculous to [...]

Maybe in all situations where people concluded that a miracle occurred, the conclusion was unwarranted. However, what is illogical about the idea of a miracle? Is there a reason that you didn't write, "I think there are completely nonmiraculous explanations for things..."?

Originally posted by Ruby
I don't believe in the miracles of the bible. The fact is, if those miracles happened back then, they should still happen with Christians today...but they don't.

It doesn't sound like a fact. It sounds like an argument (with some unstated assumptions).

Originally posted by Ruby
Sorry to answer this question using only Christianity as an example. I just deconverted from it last year.....and the topic of Christians and Christianity is always on my tongue.

It doesn't matter how few or how many religions are mentioned in your argument, provided that the argument is valid.

X: no miracle will occur, no miracle is now occurring and no miracle has occurred.

Y: there has never been a miracle anywhere, but that there will be a miracle in the year 2034.

Would you claim that if Y is correct then Christians wouldn't be making bogus miracle claims? Does that allow you to conclude that Y is incorrect, leaving you with X by process of elimination?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Every time I hear a new born baby cry, or touch a leaf, or see the sky, then I know why I DON'T believe!

[BillyJoe]

The very Idea.....someone is trying to dissect our live and passionate Ruby with a scalpel blade. :mad:

[El Greco]

If several "believers" on this board reform, then I will believe in miracles and become a believer myself. Then of course, it will be me who will have to reform, but my reform will make other skeptics become believers.

Hmmm.... I don't think I'm getting anywhere with this...

[The idea]

Originally posted by El Greco
If several "believers" on this board reform, then I will believe in miracles and become a believer myself. Then of course, it will be me who will have to reform, but my reform will make other skeptics become believers.

Hmmm.... I don't think I'm getting anywhere with this...
For you to reform means what? That you would switch to believing in miracles? How would that be a "reform" (i.e. improvement)?

Those who believe in miracles and those who believe that there are no miracles could both be characterized as "believers." If you don't have a basis for reaching a conclusion and you want to reform, then you should recognize that you do not have a basis for reaching a conclusion.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Every time I hear a new born baby cry, or touch a leaf, or see the sky, then I know why I DON'T believe!
Every time I hear a new born baby cry, or touch a leaf, or see the sky, I know that no clear question has been asked. ;)

[Ruby]

[i]Originally posted by The idea
The statement that they're not possible seems stronger than the statement that they don't happen. So the word "period" at the end of your first sentence seems premature.

This is just the language that I speak in....sometimes it is redundant or a bit mixed up. Are you so desperate for a debate that you will criticize my poor wording and redundancy to get one?


Maybe in all situations where people concluded that a miracle occurred, the conclusion was unwarranted. However, what is illogical about the idea of a miracle? Is there a reason that you didn't write, "I think there are completely nonmiraculous explanations for things..."?

That was not the sentence that came to mind at the time. I do happen to agree with the sentence you used above.


It doesn't sound like a fact. It sounds like an argument (with some unstated assumptions).

Well, if you can prove to me that some of the biblical miracles happen today, I will retract my statement.


It doesn't matter how few or how many religions are mentioned in your argument, provided that the argument is valid.
X: no miracle will occur, no miracle is now occurring and no miracle has occurred.
Y: there has never been a miracle anywhere, but that there will be a miracle in the year 2034.
Would you claim that if Y is correct then Christians wouldn't be making bogus miracle claims? Does that allow you to conclude that Y is incorrect, leaving you with X by process of elimination?

I don't understand what you are saying...sorry! It is late, I am tired, and my mind isn't working. It probably won't be working tomorrow or the next day when it comes to such a question as the above. :p

[BillyJoe]

Well Ruby may put things a little loosely at times but guess what I understand exactly what she is talking about but that last quote above I can't make head or tail of either.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
The very Idea.....someone is trying to dissect our live and passionate Ruby with a scalpel blade. :mad:

I totally forgot to say "thank you" for your concern. I was really only commenting on the poll..not preparing for a debate or a dissection! :con2:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by BillyJoe "Well Ruby may put things a little loosely at times but guess what I understand exactly what she is talking about but that last quote above I can't make head or tail of either.

Are you talking about this quote posted to me by The Idea "It doesn't matter how few or how many religions are mentioned in your argument, provided that the argument is valid.
X: no miracle will occur, no miracle is now occurring and no miracle has occurred.
Y: there has never been a miracle anywhere, but that there will be a miracle in the year 2034.
Would you claim that if Y is correct then Christians wouldn't be making bogus miracle claims? Does that allow you to conclude that Y is incorrect, leaving you with X by process of elimination? "

I am so relieved to hear that at least one other person is clueless about what the above quote means. I am generally slow to grasp certain concepts, and deep questions, due to having Fibromyalgia and a few other medical problems that effect memory, concentration, and some other cognitive abilities. :cry:

It also did not help that I was responding to his post in the middle of the night while I was in severe Fibro pain waiting for my pain meds to kick in so I could get back to bed. :v:

Now I'm not so sure it was just "Fibro fog" or sleepiness or even lack of intelligence that prevented my brain from wrapping itself around his statement (and question) to cognitively understand it, and make a response. It might be that his whole statement was flawed and muddled since you don't understand it either.

On the other hand, it could be that it was meant for people with an IQ above 200......which is not common. :teacher: Since my IQ is only 141, that would exclude me.

I used to be sharp as a tack. I even ran my own forum (back in my Christian days) and I was an avid and expert debater. You'd never know that now. In fact, I think I was a better debater, though still a bit rough, when I first Started posting on here back in March of 2003. I've rapidly gone downhill. :(

Anyhow, I digress. Perhaps there will be someone who, for whatever reason, can decipher, the Idea's" quote about X and Y, or maybe The Idea can explain it more clearly himself!:)

[BillyJoe]

The idea.....


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WALL OF PROTECTION WALL OF PROTECTION WALL
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.....and RUBY


Originally posted by The idea
X: no miracle will occur, no miracle is now occurring and no miracle has occurred.Translation.....
Position X: No miracles have never occurred in the past and no miracles will never occur in the future

Comment.....
All we know is that there is no evidence that a miracle has ever occurred in the past. But we are in no position to make any pronouncements about what may or may not happen in the future.

Originally posted by The idea
Y: there has never been a miracle anywhere, but that there will be a miracle in the year 2034. Translation......
Position Y: No miracles have ever occurred in the past but miracles will occur sometime in the future.

Comment.....
I am interpreting "the year 2034" to mean "sometime in the future" because I think that is his meaning (?)
Well, Position Y agrees with Position X that there is no evidence that no miracles have ever occurred in the past. But disagrees about what will happen in the future. Position X says that miracles will not occur inthe future and the Position Y says that a miracle will occur in the future. But they are both wrong because we are in no position to make any pronouncements about what may or may not happen in the future.


Originally posted by The idea
Would you claim that if Y is correct then Christians wouldn't be making bogus miracle claims? :D

Firstly, Christians are making claims about miracles already having occurred in the past so, yes, they are making bogus miracle claims. Secondly, why should any credit accrue to them for making unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiateable) claims about the future that just happen to come true (if they do).

Originally posted by The idea
Does that allow you to conclude that Y is incorrect, leaving you with X by process of elimination? False dichotomy
There are more than two choices here and I have indicated the existence of a third choice above.....

Position Z: There is no evidence that a miracle has ever occurred in the past and we are in no position to make any pronouncements about whether or not miracles will occur in the future.

Hope this helps :(
BillyJoe

[Ruby]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Hope this helps :(
BillyJoe


Thanks!! That helped immensely!:D

[The idea]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
I am interpreting "the year 2034" to mean "sometime in the future" because I think that is his meaning (?) [...]

Position Z: There is no evidence that a miracle has ever occurred in the past and we are in no position to make any pronouncements about whether or not miracles will occur in the future.

Hope this helps :(
BillyJoe
Why the frown? Keep in mind that I was responding to a message that began as follows:

I voted that miracles don't happen, period. I don't believe they are possible at all.

That position is different from Position Z. If you know that miracles aren't possible at all, then you can conclude that no miracle will occur in the year 2034 (for example). I chose 2034 just to give us something definite to consider.

Now there's a point that might be worth considering.
This point wasn't contained, even in enciphered form, in previous messages. Consider this:

I never saw or experienced the miraculous as a Christian....but what I did see were people who "psyched" themselves up to believe something was miraculous or who relied on being emotional and demonstrative during "Praise and Worship" in hopes of causing something amazing or miraculous to happen.

That seems to have something in common with the following:

I live in a town that includes almost ten thousand people. Of all the people in town who took the Scholastic Assessment Test last year, my cousin Billy-Bob got the highest score on the mathematical portion. Billy-Bob has spent two hours every Saturday for the last six months trying to prove Goldbach's conjecture. He hasn't made any progress and he's just about to give up. Someone should email all of the math professors around the world to let them know that they shouldn't waste their time trying to prove Goldbach's conjecture. It can't be done.

If you start with observations of a group of Christians who psyched themselves up to believe that something was miraculous (even though it wasn't), then how do you conclude that there haven't been any miracles?

It would seem that you need an assumption such as the following: "The best bet for possessing reliable information about an actual miracle is to have spent time with psyched-up Christians."

[tommjames]

mir·a·cle(mr-kl)
n.
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Just one problem, these "laws of nature"... we don't know them all. If we saw something that appeared inexplicable, but was in fact perfectly explainable, does that make it a miracle? It would seem impossible to say whether or not something is or is not a miracle, simply because we do not have total knowledge of the laws of nature.

Whether or not you beleive though is another matter. Personally, I don't. And to those who do, you might want to go here... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=mental%20illness