Muslims around the world

[timf1234]

I would like to read your opinion on the following.

It is true that majority of the Muslims are not active terrorist.
However, I think you would agree that thoughts, ideas, value system, concept of right and wrong, good and bad, what is truth and lie has impact on the society.
Pew research poll in Pakistan found 78% people support death penalty for Blasphemy. Pew research result for Arab Islamic countries is even worse.
Story is more and less the same in other Islamic countries.
Majority favors Islamic Sharia laws in almost all of the 57 OIC countries. And the list goes on about 7th century ideas are prevalent among Muslims even living in the West.
Extreme view point, from the 21st century Western standard, is not in minority among Muslims but in majority.

"f one is NOT going to blame average Muslim because they happened to be in a pitiful or wrong or bad environment (under the influence of bad leaders as, poverty, ignorance and lack of truth teller to them.) then he/she can't blame Hitler or OBL or Ted Bundy either. That is because Hitler, OBL, Ted Bundy went through a different kind of negative environment, childhood upbringing, psychological/emotional effect, that made them such evil people. Regardless of if genetic also contributed to the outcome or not still one can't blame Hitler, OBL, or Ted Bundy if they are not going to blame those poor, ignorant, illiterate Muslims. Neither Muslims nor Ted Bundy had any control over genetics or the environment.

[Robin]

Pew research poll in Pakistan found 78% people support death penalty for Blasphemy
Not that it makes any difference, but it was for apostasy rather than blasphemy.

Ironically the Quran states that their can be no compulsion in religion and yet a majority of Muslims favour compulsion in religion.

[quixotecoyote]

Ironically the Quran states

in some instances x and in other instances y, just like most other holy books.

[Earthborn]

Majority favors Islamic Sharia laws in almost all of the 57 OIC countries.And the people who favour Sharia often (sometimes even violently) disagree what Sharia means. It is meaningless to ask Muslims whether or not they favour "Sharia" because the term is just a generality. It is equivalent to asking people elsewhere in the world whether they favour "being tough on crime".

And the list goes on about 7th century ideas are prevalent among Muslims even living in the West.Many people in the West have even older ideas. Silly notions such as the Earth being spherical.

"f one is NOT going to blame average Muslim because they happened to be in a pitiful or wrong or bad environment (under the influence of bad leaders as, poverty, ignorance and lack of truth teller to them.) then he/she can't blame Hitler or OBL or Ted Bundy either.Ridiculous comparison. Hitler, Bin Laden and Bundy are/were not average individuals in their society. They have done things for which they may rightly be blamed, which is not true of "average Muslims", whose biggest crime seems to be having ideas you happen to disagree with.

[Monketey Ghost]

The Mullah at the top of the page might be able to help.

[kedo1981]

The Muslims that want to live in the present and not the 13th century, that see a world wide system of multi culture interaction as a good thing- they are terrified of the other kind of Moslem, because that kind, will kill them first!

[Bikewer]

One of the problems with Islam as an institution is that it isn't one. There is no "pope" or central authority; therefore any cleric or scholar can issue "fatwa" (religious opinion) that at least some Muslims will feel of relevance.
Because of this, many practices and ideas that are essentially regional or tribal have crept into Islam even though a close reading of the Koran would show them to be "un-Islamic".
Note that there are still numbers of other Abrahamic faiths that would favor a strict reading and enforcement of ancient laws....One would not have to search too hard to find folks who think that stoning homosexuals and such is a good idea.
(Though I admit it would be hard to find individuals who would be in favor of inflicting a similar fate on someone who ate a bat....)

[themusicteacher]

Anyone who adheres to a hard-line values system as toxic as the one the Taliban or the Ghanaian government or the Wahaabists, etc. follow is worth fighting. Those types of system's are so poisonous that they represent a threat to humanity.

[Complexity]

I find muslims and xians virtually indistinguishable in terms of fanaticism, nastiness, and ignorance.

Not everyone in either religion is a fanatic or nasty, but when they are, they really are.

[154]

I find muslims and xians virtually indistinguishable in terms of fanaticism, nastiness, and ignorance.

Not everyone in either religion is a fanatic or nasty, but when they are, they really are.Christians would tell you about Christ.

Muslims would kill you.

[Complexity]

Christians would tell you about Christ.

Muslims would kill you.


Don't be silly.

Many xians would kill me just as readily as muslims.

You are either incredibly ignorant or lying.

[154]

Don't be silly.

Many xians would kill me just as readily as muslims.

You are either incredibly ignorant or lying.
Name just one Christian who would kill you or would advocate killing you.

[timf1234]

Earthborn wrote:
"Average Muslims", whose biggest crime seems to be having ideas you happen to disagree with".

Interesting.
Are you implying there is no set of ideas that is better than the other for the purpose of flourishment of humanity?
Muslims are against the following ideas:
Freedom of expression, speech, thought, especially when it goes against Muhammad, Quran and Islam.
they are for:
One man 4 wives.
Stone to death for adultery.
Chopping off hand of thieves.
Forbid interest on money
The list goes on.

Are you one of those for who there is no good and bad, right or wrong, true or false?
Is everything just relative? Cultural, religious relativism?
Are you one of those extreme left liberals?
Just curious.

[Complexity]

Name just one Christian who would kill you or would advocate killing you.


Are you kidding? Gay evolution-embracing, religion-mocking atheist scientist here.

Phelps and his clan.

I think that you would like to, given a chance.

A few other members of these forums, past and present.

A few of the more fundamentalist members of my family would wish death upon people like me.

Many, many fundamentalists.

The list goes on and on.

[timf1234]

error

[timf1234]

Earthborn wrote:
"Ridiculous comparison. Hitler, Bin Laden and Bundy are/were not average individuals in their society. "

I was talking about the thought, the ideas, the concept of good and bad, right and wrong, true and false in peoples head makes or break civilization.

Yes, it is true that most of these Muslims with sick ideas in their head have not done horrible crimes as Hitler or Ted Bundy but that is because they did not have a chance or power.

Overwhelming majority of the people, after their all basic needs are met, you, me or Hitler will do exactly what he/she things is good, right and justified given them the opportunity and power.

Judge people not by what they have done, nor from their talk but what is in their head, in terms of what is true and false, good and bad, right and wrong. All action is driven out of what is in your head. Muslims mind is fuucked up. It's meme baby.

Welcome to the world of Neuropsychology/science of the 21st century.
It is not the bomb or money that will win in the future but who controls the mind.
Memetic can circumvent thousands years of doing of genetics in a single generation. [I am not talking about the human physical appearance or gene codes itself but the the outcome, result of human progress.]

What makes people become suicide bombers and walk into a wedding ceremony and kill innocent people?
What makes 19 hijackers crash their plane into WTC?
What makes Muslims slowly saw human throat, video tape them and put them on the internet for the West to take a lesson from it?
It is Islamic mental virus.

You can't win this war of civilization with aircraft carrier, fighter plane, or bombs. We did not solve the problem of plague that was wiping of Europe by bombs. Penicillin did it.

Muslims problem is even tougher. Cancer or Plague patient know/knew they are infected with disease therefore, they seek treatment. Muslims are not aware of that. Muslims are the victim of Islamic Parasitic Memetic Disinformational Mental Virus that enters mostly from the ear from very early childhood. It is contagious.

The West is pissing in its paint. They are slowly surrendering to the virus. We already have compromised our Freedom of Expression.

We need reprogramming of 1.3 billion Muslim brains. How to do it? That is the challenge?
So far the West has no clue how to fight this war.
Only a very small number of scientists, like Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and few others are working on this problem.

Muslims are the victim of Islam.

[timf1234]

And for Complexity,

Far greater number of Muslims will be willing to kill me for Mocking Mohammad's sick ideas than the number of Christians who would do the same for my mocking Jesus.

Atheist and all kind of religious people have a lot more freedom in the Western society than in Islamic countries. Think of living in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.

The difference is not small.
How would you counter argue that?
There is no comparision of the tollerance level of Muslims vs. Christians.
It is the statistic, dude.

[Complexity]

We need reprogramming of 1.3 billion Muslim brains.


Well, we know where you're coming from.

The problem isn't just muslims, and it isn't all muslims.

The problem is fundamentalists - xian, catholics, muslims, mormons, hindus, etc. Nice try trying to focus our attention on muslim extremists, but the worst thread in the US comes from xians fundamentalists.

The secondary problem is woo of all varieties. I assure you that religion is woo.

Xian fundie bigots are some of the very worst.

[sgtbaker]

Christians would tell you about Christ.

Muslims would kill you.

That, I suspect, is only because human rights laws are in enforced in areas where Christians dominate; which, incidently, could be the very reason Christians stopped burning witches and heretics, in the name of god. It was not that long ago that putting white hot metal on a heretics tongue was a practice sanctioned by the pope.

[timf1234]

I care less for the US but I care more about the Western Civilization.
The Western idea that we have learned the hard way in the last 4 hundred years is very important.
Although, nothing is perfect but post Galelio era Western value system is superior to any other existing value system at present. Of counrse, nothing is perfect.
European freedom of speech is already diluted by Islamic filth.

So, no, the biggest threat is not from catholics, mormons, hindus but from Musllims.
What is xian?

[timf1234]

That, I suspect, is only because human rights laws are in enforced in areas where Christians dominate; which, incidently, could be the very reason Christians stopped burning witches and heretics, in the name of god. It was not that long ago that putting white hot metal on a heretics tongue was a practice sanctioned by the pope.

sgtbaker,

Your argument is incorrect.


Nothing is perfect, but compare the following thought experimental results for % of Muslims vs. Christians those who (a) think following are justified and (2) act because they thing it is a good thing to do.

Behead innoncent random people, video tape it, post it on the internet.
Will fly plane into the building.
Thinks 1 man have 4 wives is justified.
Thinks 2 women witness = 1 man witness is fair.
Thinks suicide bombing and killing hundreds of innocent civilian is justified as long as it advances their religion.
Curtail freedom of speech.
list goes on....and on.

Fact of the matter is there is no comparision.
We are facing 7th century barbarism mentality with the 21st century civilization

[sgtbaker]

So, no, the biggest threat is not from catholics, muslims, mormons, hindus but from Musllims.
What is xian?

Christian Identity is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings.[46][47][48][49]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

..and I think to myself, what a wonderful world!

[timf1234]

That, I suspect, is only because human rights laws are in enforced in areas where Christians dominate; which, incidently, could be the very reason Christians stopped burning witches and heretics, in the name of god. It was not that long ago that putting white hot metal on a heretics tongue was a practice sanctioned by the pope.

Be fair, be just, do symmetrical thoguht experiment.
We are condemning today's Muslims mentality and not of the past nor of the future.
If and when Muslims change their value system for better then there is no reason for us to condemn the same group of people.

Christians stopped doing a lot of nonsenses decades ago.

[Complexity]

I care less for the US but I care more about the Western Civilization.
The Western idea that we have learned the hard way in the last 4 hundred years is very important.
Although, nothing is perfect but post Galelio era Western value system is superior to any other existing value system at present. Of counrse, nothing is perfect.
European freedom of speech is already diluted by Islamic filth.

So, no, the biggest threat is not from catholics, muslims, mormons, hindus but from Musllims.
What is xian?


Nice. Very nice. Especially appreciated the 'filth' remark. You're an example for all of mankind.

'xian'? You are one. A fundy one. A very nasty one.

[Thunder]

Even if only 1% of the World's Muslim population are violent extremists, that is a very very dangerous number. 10 million people can do a **** load of damage and kill a whole lot of people.

[Complexity]

Be fair, be just, do symmetrical thoguht experiment.
We are condemning today's Muslims mentality and not of the past nor of the future.
If and when Muslims change their value system for better then there is no reason for us to condemn the same group of people.

Christians stopped doing a lot of nonsenses decades ago.


The muslim value system and the xian value system have a great deal in common. Not good, but common.

islam bears the same relationship to xianity that xianity bears to judaism.

You're just pissed off about being replaced by others. Don't worry - muslims feel the same way about baha'is.

And xians haven't stopped doing any nonsense - they've simply added some new varieties of nonsense to the mix.

[timf1234]

..and I think to myself, what a wonderful world!

and here is the list of Muslim terrorist act in a very short period.
15,190 terrorist act since september 11, 2001.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

No individual, no country, no civilization, no ideology is perfect but when you compare then one will stand out.

It is the statistic dude.

[timf1234]

Nice. Very nice. Especially appreciated the 'filth' remark. You're an example for all of mankind.

'xian'? You are one. A fundy one. A very nasty one.

By recognising wrongness in the following ideas and calling it out "filth" makes me a bad person?
would you like your childrend to recognize the following ideas as virtues?

Will fly plane into the building.
Thinks 1 man have 4 wives is justified.
Thinks 2 women witness = 1 man witness is fair.
Thinks suicide bombing and killing hundreds of innocent civilian is justified as long as it advances their religion.
Curtail freedom of speech.
list goes on....and on.

[Thunder]

honestly, Muslims and Christians have the most violent histories of any of the world's religions. Christianity's violent stage sorta ended with the end of the Yugoslav civil war, but those conflicts could start up again any day.

[Complexity]

list goes on....and on.


and on and on and on.

And yet it means nothing.

You are spewing hatred and nonsense.

So much for xian love.

I regard you as a greater menace than them. Capice?

[154]

I regard you as a greater menace than them. Capice?

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/10/us-muslim-kill-homosexualsvideo.html

[sgtbaker]

sgtbaker,

Your argument is incorrect.


Nothing is perfect, but compare the following thought experimental results for % of Muslims vs. Christians those who (a) think following are justified and (2) act because they thing it is a good thing to do.

Behead innoncent random people, video tape it, post it on the internet.
Will fly plane into the building.
Thinks 1 man have 4 wives is justified.
Thinks 2 women witness = 1 man witness is fair.
Thinks suicide bombing and killing hundreds of innocent civilian is justified as long as it advances their religion.
Curtail freedom of speech.
list goes on....and on.

Fact of the matter is there is no comparision.
We are facing 7th century barbarism mentality with the 21st century civilization

See the problem with your comparison is that they do come from a place where dissent is met with swift and harsh punishment. The Western world was very much of the same practice and they didn't stop because they woke up one day and realized it was wrong. They stopped because they were being challenged by education, diversity and eventually the seperation of church and state (none of which is popular in Islamic regions). The churches simply did not have the authority anymore.

Christians bomb abortion clinics (extremism)
Aryan Nations are christian (extremism)
Christians are tormenting families of fallen soldiers (extremism)
Christians are stalking people who they feel do not live clean lives (extremism)
Christians are fighting to decide what goes into history books (censorship)
Mormon is a Christian faith (polygamy)

Again, it's only speculation but I wonder if the church were given free reign, again, what kind of society would the western world be?

[sgtbaker]

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/10/us-muslim-kill-homosexualsvideo.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

I suspect they would go after the Catholic church and the victims too.

[timf1234]

honestly, Muslims and Christians have the most violent histories of any of the world's religions. Christianity's violent stage sorta ended with the end of the Yugoslav civil war, but those conflicts could start up again any day.

May be you did not read my earlier few post.
Justifiably, we are not comparing past or the future. We live in the present. We are comparing the today's Muslims mentality with today's Christians mentality. It makes a lot of sense to curb a bad idea and encourage the good ideas, regardless where the idea is coming from.

You and I wouldn't like to live in any of 57 OIC countries.
Probably, you already know that most of the Muslims themselves would prefer to live in the West than living among them. But they do not want to give the credit.

At subconscious level, Muslims know that they have been destroyed from inside out. Their heart is crying. Because of their ego, their cognitive dissonance, they don't even want to ask for help from the West, although the desire someone to help them. We are not talking about financial or technological help. Their soul (so to speak) has died.

Muslims want the West to fix them without asking the West to fix them but they do not want the world to know that West is fixing them. They even do not want the West to them that they are fixing their soul (value system). They want the West to fix their soul in such a way that will make them feel like no one has fixed anything they were better from the beginning.
That is the Muslim psychology.
Most Westerner has no clue what they are dealing with.

[Complexity]

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/10/us-muslim-kill-homosexualsvideo.html


Like I'd click on a link you'd offer?

Don't worry, you're as great a menace as timmy is.

[Earthborn]

Are you one of those for who there is no good and bad, right or wrong, true or false?Read my sig.

Are you one of those extreme left liberals?Since everything is relative, it depends. It depends on from how far to the right you are looking. Some extreme leftists certainly wouldn't consider me to be very far to the left. Personally I don't consider myself to be anywhere on the left-right line (or even on the left-right-up-down square Libertarians like to flog.)

Just curious.Just curious? Or just trying to fish for a reason to easily dismiss what I write?

Are you implying there is no set of ideas that is better than the other for the purpose of flourishment of humanity?Depends on how you define "flourishment of humanity" and of course on how you define "better".

Muslims are against the following ideas:
Freedom of expression, speech, thought, especially when it goes against Muhammad, Quran and Islam.All Muslims or some Muslims or just "Muslims in general" ? If you did a poll, show it.

One man 4 wives.Surprisingly few Muslim men have more than 1 wife. And I happen not to care much about what relationships consenting adults enter into, as long as nobody gets hurt.

Forbid interest on moneyTypical of several other religions, and actually quite sensible.

Stone to death for adultery.
Chopping off hand of thieves.I don't think many Muslims are in favour of these things.

[sgtbaker]

Muslims want the West to fix them without asking the West to fix them but they do not want the world to know that West is fixing them. They even do not want the West to them that they are fixing their soul (value system). They want the West to fix their soul in such a way that will make them feel like no one has fixed anything they were better from the beginning.
That is the Muslim psychology.
Most Westerner has no clue what they are dealing with.

I was under the impression that they were burning our flags and cheering on 9/11 because they wanted us to stop getting involved in their world, not to make it mirror ours.

[Complexity]

Again, it's only speculation but I wonder if the church were given free reign, again, what kind of society would the western world be?


The xian fundies in the US are doing their best to turn back the clock and make this hell on earth for the rest of us.

[sgtbaker]

The xian fundies in the US are doing their best to turn back the clock and make this hell on earth for the rest of us.

No kidding! I am becoming quite the activist with my letter writing campaigns. Florida's a total freaking nightmare and the very reason I agree that any extremist is dangerous to society.

[154]

Like I'd click on a link you'd offer?

"This is a video interview of an American Muslim from their September 25Th Capital Hill prayer outing. He clearly states that if Sharia Law becomes the law of the USA, that homosexuals shall be put to death."

Don't worry, you're as great a menace as timmy is.I am no threat to you, nor is Christian society, as you know. I disagree. I disapprove. But I would never advocate any harm to you. As long as you harm no one, do what you want.

They, however, advocate your execution. Yet it is me that you despise.

But that is not because of me, but because you hate Jesus Christ. You hate God.

[Brainache]

I think the problem lies with all religions. Anytime a country is under the authority of a religion atrocities happen. Look at those "Laundries" in Ireland for a recent Christian example.

The problem I see with Islam is not so much the theology (which isn't so different to Christianity or Judaism), but the fact that the priests are running the government.

If the US became a Theocracy like so many fundamentalists seem to desire, I think you would see all of the same kinds of abuse as we see in the worst Islamic states.

Islam isn't Western Democracy's enemy, religion is.

[Complexity]

154 - Asked and answered. Try to keep up.

[timf1234]

Pew Research poll shows 78% Pakistani wants death penalty for blasphemy and for leaving Islam.
google it. YOu will see many such result.
Yes, higher percentage of present days Muslims have sick ideas than that of present days Christains. that's all.

[Brainache]

Pew Research poll shows 78% Pakistani wants death penalty for blasphemy and for leaving Islam.
google it. YOu will see many such result.
Yes, higher percentage of present days Muslims have sick ideas than that of present days Christains. that's all.

Is there a poll of Christians' sick ideas?

[Complexity]

Is there a poll of Christians' sick ideas?


There should be. He hates the fact that he's indistinguishable from muslim fanatics and that we know.

[timf1234]

"This is a video interview of an American Muslim from their September 25Th Capital Hill prayer outing. He clearly states that if Sharia Law becomes the law of the USA, that homosexuals shall be put to death."

I am no threat to you, nor is Christian society, as you know. I disagree. I disapprove. But I would never advocate any harm to you. As long as you harm no one, do what you want.

They, however, advocate your execution. Yet it is me that you despise.

But that is not because of me, but because you hate Jesus Christ. You hate God.

Same is true for me.
I will never advocate violance or unjust discrimination against Muslims or anyone else. But I will not sit here and accept all their filthy ideas for the sake of political correctness and multiculturalism. Call spade a spade.

[Complexity]

Call spade a spade.


I have.

You really don't like it when I do.

[sgtbaker]

Pew Research poll shows 78% Pakistani wants death penalty for blasphemy and for leaving Islam.
google it. YOu will see many such result.
Yes, higher percentage of present days Muslims have sick ideas than that of present days Christains. that's all.

No, just a higher number of Muslims are in an area where that kind of behavior is still tolerated because it's under control by Muslims. We have rules that prevent that kind of control for a reason.

[154]

The world under the domination of the Antichrist is the world under the domination of the Mahdi is the world under the domination of Islam.

The Bible says those that do not accept this will be beheaded.

[timf1234]

I have.

You really don't like it when I do.

Write a book mocking Mohammad and then write a book mocking Jesus see what happens.
Can you not perform this thought experiment in your head?

Recently, commedy central mocked founder of every religion. they got death threat only from one religion, Islam.

Can you not recognize this?
You want to stay willfully bliind.

[Brainache]

The world under the domination of the Antichrist is the world under the domination of the Mahdi is the world under the domination of Islam.

The Bible says those that do not accept this will be beheaded.

How is that any different to a world under the domination of a pope?

[sgtbaker]

The world under the domination of the Antichrist is the world under the domination of the Mahdi is the world under the domination of Islam.

The Bible says those that do not accept this will be beheaded.

Am I reading this wrong or are you making my point? Their laws are based on the Koran, our laws counter the extremist views of the bible.

[154]

How is that any different to a world under the domination of a pope?The Pope has his part to play. The Script will be fulfilled.

[Brainache]

Write a book mocking Mohammad and then write a book mocking Jesus see what happens.
Can you not perform this thought experiment in your head?

Recently, commedy central mocked founder of every religion. they got death thread only from one religion, Islam.

Can you not recognize this?
You want to stay willfully bliind.

The only reason this is true is because hundreds of years ago people fought to remove religion from government.

If the US government was run by the church, mocking Christ in the US would be the same as mocking Mohammed in Saudi Arabia.

[154]

Am I reading this wrong or are you making my point? Their laws are based on the Koran, our laws counter the extremist views of the bible.
Christians will be executed.

[sgtbaker]

Write a book mocking Mohammad and then write a book mocking Jesus see what happens.
Can you not perform this thought experiment in your head?

Recently, commedy central mocked founder of every religion. they got death threat only from one religion, Islam.

Can you not recognize this?
You want to stay willfully bliind.

They didn't get a death threat, they got a warning. Sick and scary yeah but so is this

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/facebook-page-prays-obamas-death/story?id=10451069

[Brainache]

The Pope has his part to play. The Script will be fulfilled.

Time for a re-write then.

[timf1234]

Am I reading this wrong or are you making my point? Their laws are based on the Koran, our laws counter the extremist views of the bible.

that's why the West came up with the idea of seperation of church and state and implemented it.

that is why atheist has more freedom in the West than in the Christian countries.

one more important distinction, I am not defending Christianity. I am defending Western ideas. Some countries are not Western but have adapted Post Gallelio era Western ideas and i have no problem with them. They are a kind of Westernized. Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong.

You know for fact, you as atheist have more freedom in the West than in any Islamic countries.

[sgtbaker]

Christians will be executed.

Okay, I was taken back for a second. Where does it say this will happen?

[timf1234]

They didn't get a death threat, they got a warning. Sick and scary yeah but so is this

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/facebook-page-prays-obamas-death/story?id=10451069

How come they did not get a warning from other religious group?
Science is about comparision, discrimination.'

How about dozens of Ex-Muslims who are hiding in the West because they are exposing true filth of Islam? I don't see that many Ex-Christians hiding in Islamic countries for their life.

Grow up...compare, do symmetrical test.

[sgtbaker]

that's why the West came up with the idea of seperation of church and state and implemented it.

that is why atheist has more freedom in the West than in the Christian countries.

one more important distinction, I am not defending Christianity. I am defending Western ideas. Some countries are not Western but have adapted Post Gallelio era Western ideas and i have no problem with them. They are a kind of Westernized. Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong.

You know for fact, you as atheist have more freedom in the West than in any Islamic countries.

Oh I am not arguing that I would, without at doubt, be tortured to death and beheaded in those regions. What I am arguing is why we don't impliment torture and death anymore is not because of Christian kindness, it was because of liberal writers like Locke and Paine, and secular reasoning.
Simply put, the one thing that seperates Christians from Muslems is cultural diversion and tolerant societies. You may not think that torturing and killing is right, as most people in western societies would agree, but that is because social acceptance and western laws won't let you take your holy book to its most literal sense. Their government does which makes their government more corrupt than their religion.

[Ryokan]

Are you implying there is no set of ideas that is better than the other for the purpose of flourishment of humanity?
Muslims are against the following ideas:
Freedom of expression, speech, thought, especially when it goes against Muhammad, Quran and Islam.
they are for:
One man 4 wives.
Stone to death for adultery.
Chopping off hand of thieves.
Forbid interest on money
The list goes on.

Then how do you explain Turkey, which is a majority Muslim country, yet none of this applies?

[timf1234]

Oh I am not arguing that I would, without at doubt, be tortured to death and beheaded in those regions. What I am arguing is why we don't impliment torture and death anymore is not because of Christian kindness, it was because of liberal writers like Locke and Paine, and secular reasoning.
Simply put, the one thing that seperates Christians from Muslems is cultural diversion and tolerant societies. You may not think that torturing and killing is right, as most people in western societies would agree, but that is because social acceptance and western laws won't let you take your holy book to its most literal sense. Their government does which makes their government more corrupt than their religion.

thanks god (metaphorecally speaking) you are turning around.
Of course, there are reason, why average Muslims thoughts are so much backward when compared to that of Christians. there is always a reason behind a reason, a chain of reason.

But the fact remains, that Muslims brain is ***** up far more than the Westerners.

Do not use alternate spelling to get around the auto-censor.

[Earthborn]

I was talking about the thought, the ideas, the concept of good and bad, right and wrong, true and false in peoples head makes or break civilization.Then you are making even less sense.

Yes, it is true that most of these Muslims with sick ideas in their head have not done horrible crimes as Hitler or Ted Bundy but that is because they did not have a chance or power.Here's the clever bit about effectively functioning democracies: they give everybody a bit of power, but nobody too much. And if someone wants to advance their cause they will have to do it by cooperating with others who disagree with them, and this will mostly balance out any extreme positions and prevent horrible crimes.

Judge people not by what they have done, nor from their talk but what is in their headIf you want to judge people not on what they say, and not on what they do, but on what they think, you'll hit a rather pesky problem: there is no way to know what they think, other than by what they say and what they do.

Muslims mind is ***** up.Do not try to circumvent the autocensor. It is against forum rules, and angers the forum administrators.

It is not the bomb or money that will win in the future but who controls the mind.Yes, it indeed is. Who do you think is going to more effective at controlling Muslims minds; a person who tells Muslims screwed up minds, or a person who tells Muslims they can be successful as long as they are nice?

So far the West has no clue how to fight this war.I think the West has a pretty good idea, tricks it has developed over many years and through even greater crisis: promoting tolerance for other people's ideas even subversive ones, balancing the interests of diverse groups to prevent some groups to feel left out, incorporating opposition toward decision makers into the decision making process itself, realising that society is not defined by a fixed set of values but by how effectively people with diverse sets of values can peacefully work together to further their goals.

[timf1234]

Then how do you explain Turkey, which is a majority Muslim country, yet none of this applies?

It does apply to Turkey too but to a lesser extend.
Even in Tukey you can't get away mocking Mohammad.
But I can get away mocking Jesus in the US or in Europe.
In addition, Turkey is only 1 out of 57 OIC, Islamic countries.
It is the statistic, dudes.

[sgtbaker]

How come they did not get a warning from other religious group?
Science is about comparision, discrimination.'

How about dozens of Ex-Muslims who are hiding in the West because they are exposing true filth of Islam? I don't see that many Ex-Christians hiding in Islamic countries for their life.

Grow up...compare, do symmetrical test.

Are we getting a tad emotional on this?
Was there not a western person openly praying for the death of another person and actually getting a substantial amount of support? Where is your comparison.
They didn't get warnings from other religious groups because most of the west is no longer shocked by them.

They hide here because we have human rights laws that protect them, they are enforce here and not enforced there.

[154]

Okay, I was taken back for a second. Where does it say this will happen?

"and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
Revelation 13:4-9

"and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
Revelation 13:15

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;"
Revelation 20:4

[Brainache]

thanks god (metaphorecally speaking) you are turning around.
Of course, there are reason, why average Muslims thoughts are so much backward when compared to that of Christians. there is always a reason behind a reason, a chain of reason.

But the fact remains, that Muslims brain is ***** up far more than the Westerners.

The Muslim's brain is no different to yours or mine, it just has a government which is controlled by clergy. Let the churches back in control in the west and we would have exactly the same problems.

What can we do about it?

1. Pray?

2. Wait a few hundred years and see if the Islamic world has an enlightenment?

3. Nuke them all!?

4. Other?

[sgtbaker]

thanks god (metaphorecally speaking) you are turning around.
Of course, there are reason, why average Muslims thoughts are so much backward when compared to that of Christians. there is always a reason behind a reason, a chain of reason.

But the fact remains, that Muslims brain is fuucked up far more than the Westerners.

I don't recall anything I said in that quote being even remotely different than anything I've said in the past. Hey, you called on science before; comparison and discrimination, wouldn't you want a full explanation for a possible solution. It appears that you are just more comfortable with saying, "my religion is better than theirs," and leaving it at that.

[sgtbaker]

"and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
Revelation 13:4-9

"and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
Revelation 13:15

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;"
Revelation 20:4

Oh interesting.

[154]

And if Complexity and I find ourselves marching to our deaths at the hands of the Muslims, he will be telling me I suck...

and I'll tell him about Jesus again...

[Bill Thompson]

I would like to read your opinion on the following.

It is true that majority of the Muslims are not active terrorist.

That is thanks to The Catholics and their campaigns. I have a lot to say about this issue. The moderate Muslims and the quazi-westernized muslims are the way they are not because of Islam. It is do to the impact of the West.

Mohamed owned slaves. Muslims desire to emulate Mohamed. It is the abolutionists from the west that we have to thank for the fact that slaves are not owned and traded in Arab lands.

Your comment "It is true that majority of the Muslims are not active terrorist." is misleading. It suggests that we have to consider Islam to be a religion of peace because most muslims are peaceful. That is misleading and is, as they say, "bearing false witness".

Most Mulsims are peaceful not because of what islam teaches.

We all want to believe that the trilogy of religions, Islam, Chrstianity, and Judiasm are all peaceful and noble. But sometimes what we want to believe is not true.

Do I need to copy the contents of the following pages or can I trust you to read them before calling me a liar?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm

[timf1234]

Are we getting a tad emotional on this?
Was there not a western person openly praying for the death of another person and actually getting a substantial amount of support? Where is your comparison.
They didn't get warnings from other religious groups because most of the west is no longer shocked by them.

They hide here because we have human rights laws that protect them, they are enforce here and not enforced there.

Number of support for the death of anyone whoever mock their prophet is far greater among Muslims for Moahmmad than among Christians for Jesus.

Of course, there are reason why other religious group did not give out threat.
As I said, there is always reason behind everything, whethere we know it or not, whether we can articulate it or not. But the fact remains, that current generation of Muslims makes a inferior society than the current Westerners. And this is primarily due to their sick value systems.

Of course, for Human rights. That is a virtue.
Muslims do not value human rights as much as the Westerner do, specially when it goes against their religion.

again, I am not defending Christianity but defending Western value system.
Western value system is far, far superior than that of Islamic. Please compare current to current generation.
We learned the good things the hard way since Gallelio.

[Hokulele]

I will never advocate violance or unjust discrimination against Muslims or anyone else.


Really?

But the fact remains, that Muslims brain is ***** up far more than the Westerners.


Hmm...

[JohnG]

This is a sensitive subject, at least in part because people tend to dismiss out of hand any idea that they find profoundly objectionable; "the suggestion that X may be true is offensive/depressing/infuriating/confusing/runs counter to my beliefs, therefore X cannot possibly be true and anyone who suggest otherwise is mentally and/or morally deficient". Skeptics are, pretty much by definition, supposed to be above that sort of thing. I hope the following comments can be taken as rationally and objectively as possible by both sides of the argument without resorting to accusing me of some larger, sinister purpose:

Let me be clear. I don't think the majority of Muslims condone the actions of radical Muslims. I believe they are for the most part peace loving people who want the same things everyone else on this sad little planet wants; a roof over their head, some food in their stomach, friends and a family of some kind, a line of work that doesn't break their backs and allows them to have these other things and occasionally even a little bit of fun.

If I were somehow magically transported back to say, the 10th century with no hope of returning home, the last place I'd think of making my home is in "Christian" Europe of the time (an interesting place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there). I would make for one of the more enlightened Muslim countries of the time because I'd stand a much better chance of leading a happier, healthier and freer life there than I would amongst my own, more direct ancestors. Since I'm human and therefore just as likely to be influenced by various kinds of chauvinism as anyone else, it gives me little pleasure to admit to not wanting to live alongside my great-great-great-great-etc. grandparents, but the cold hard unsentimental facts (as I understand them) lead me to believe that "Muslim Civilization" was at the time in many measurable ways superior to "Christian Civilization". Times have, as they say, changed, though and most objective observers (or at least those who make a concerted effort to be as objective as possible) tend to agree that modern day "Muslim Civilization" is in a state of crisis, and not just because of pressures exerted on it from without.

Just a week or two ago I was listening on NPR about how music had been banned in Somalia by radical Islamic insurgents because they say "music is un-Islamic". Let me say that again; MUSIC HAS BEEN BANNED THROUGHOUT AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. Not to get all "Daily Show"-glib on you, but that sounds more like a plotline out of an old episode of Josie and the Pussycats than a humane, reasonable policy of a major 21st century religion.

To argue that a "problem" isn't a problem worth dealing with, (or even discussing) if it isn't systemic is as nonsensical as saying a tumor in the mouth isn't worth looking into until it causes unbearable pain or even spreads throughout the entire body. Similarly, saying that not all Muslims are radical, while true, is equally beside the point, as I wager even many Muslims would admit.

Furthermore, resorting to a "Tu Quoque" defense (e.g., oh yeah? Well, Christianity has it's share of problems, too!) is perfectly true, but I really can't buy the argument that modern day radical Christians are as demonstrably unambiguously dangerous as modern day radical Muslims. As always, I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if someone can make a strong enough case.:)


ETA: I somehow missed an entire second page worth of posts, so I need to catch up on those...

[Complexity]

But that is not because of me, but because you hate Jesus Christ. You hate God.


I would if they existed, but they don't, so I merely mock the idea of them.

The 'god' that you imagine is an evil thing, one that would deserve nothing but contempt and opposition were it to exist.

[Complexity]

Do I need to copy the contents of the following pages or can I trust you to read them before calling me a liar?


Err... you're a liar.

I don't read anything you link to. I don't ready anything that you cut and paste from elsewhere.

I don't need any further evidence of what you think and of how you behave to know that you lie and have very little in common with me and people that I respect.

[ScannerHead]

Nice try trying to focus our attention on muslim extremists, but the worst thread in the US comes from xians fundamentalists.

The secondary problem is woo of all varieties. I assure you that religion is woo.

You can 'assure' us? Of this I can assure you, you are grossly naive, which only feeds anti-Christian sentiments in places like this and around the world.

[timf1234]

The only reason this is true is because hundreds of years ago people fought to remove religion from government.

If the US government was run by the church, mocking Christ in the US would be the same as mocking Mohammed in Saudi Arabia.

Of course, there is always a reason behind everything.
You can't just reason it away the fact that much higher percentage of current Muslims brain is host of very sick ideas, regardless of where they live when compared to that of Westerner.

[timf1234]

Really?




Hmm...

that did not tell me anything.

Fact is fact.
percentage of Muslims who have outdated sick ideas are far, far greater than that of Westerners.

[timf1234]

This is a sensitive subject, at least in part because people tend to dismiss out of hand any idea that they find profoundly objectionable; "the suggestion that X may be true is offensive/depressing/infuriating/confusing/runs counter to my beliefs, therefore X cannot possibly be true and anyone who suggest otherwise is mentally and/or morally deficient". Skeptics are, pretty much by definition, supposed to be above that sort of thing. I hope the following comments can be taken as rationally and objectively as possible by both sides of the argument without resorting to accusing me of some larger, sinister purpose:

Let me be clear. I don't think the majority of Muslims condone the actions of radical Muslims. I believe they are for the most part peace loving people who want the same things everyone else on this sad little planet wants; a roof over their head, some food in their stomach, friends and a family of some kind, a line of work that doesn't break their backs and allows them to have these other things and occasionally even a little bit of fun.

If I were somehow magically transported back to say, the 10th century with no hope of returning home, the last place I'd think of making my home is in "Christian" Europe of the time (an interesting place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there). I would make for one of the more enlightened Muslim countries of the time because I'd stand a much better chance of leading a happier, healthier and freer life there than I would amongst my own, more direct ancestors. Since I'm human and therefore just as likely to be influenced by various kinds of chauvinism as anyone else, it gives me little pleasure to admit to not wanting to live alongside my great-great-great-great-etc. grandparents, but the cold hard unsentimental facts (as I understand them) lead me to believe that "Muslim Civilization" was at the time in many measurable ways superior to "Christian Civilization". Times have, as they say, changed, though and most objective observers (or at least those who make a concerted effort to be as objective as possible) tend to agree that modern day "Muslim Civilization" is in a state of crisis, and not just because of pressures exerted on it from without.

Just a week or two ago I was listening on NPR about how music had been banned in Somalia by radical Islamic insurgents because they say "music is un-Islamic". Let me say that again; MUSIC HAS BEEN BANNED THROUGHOUT AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. Not to get all "Daily Show"-glib on you, but that sounds more like a plotline out of an old episode of Josie and the Pussycats than a humane, reasonable policy of a major 21st century religion.

To argue that a "problem" isn't a problem worth dealing with, (or even discussing) if it isn't systemic is as nonsensical as saying a tumor in the mouth isn't worth looking into until it causes unbearable pain or even spreads throughout the entire body. Similarly, saying that not all Muslims are radical, while true, is equally beside the point, as I wager even many Muslims would admit.

Furthermore, resorting to a "Tu Quoque" defense (e.g., oh yeah? Well, Christianity has it's share of problems, too!) is perfectly true, but I really can't buy the argument that modern day radical Christians are as demonstrably unambiguously dangerous as modern day radical Muslims. As always, I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if someone can make a strong enough case.:)


ETA: I somehow missed an entire second page worth of posts, so I need to catch up on those...

I can get along in this line of conclusion.
Except, I am not as much confident that 10th century Islamic civilization was superior to Europeans. That may or may not be true or may be half true. But I am very confident of today's where I live, and have first hand news, information, that even Muslims do not wan't to live in their own countries.

[timf1234]

The only reason this is true is because hundreds of years ago people fought to remove religion from government.

If the US government was run by the church, mocking Christ in the US would be the same as mocking Mohammed in Saudi Arabia.

I was not talking about why it is true I was pointing out the fact "It is true"
There is always a reason behind everyting.

Look, Complexity doesn't even want to acknowledge that Current day's Muslims mind is corrupted with bad ideas more than that of current day's Westerners.

[Complexity]

I was not talking about why it is true I was pointing out the fact "It is true"
There is always a reason behind everyting.

Look, Complexity doesn't even want to acknowledge that Current day's Muslims mind is corrupted with bad ideas more than that of current day's Westerners.


Liar.

Fundamentalist muslims are equivalent to fundamentalist xians in their delusions, nastiness, and danger to the rest of us.

tim1234 is trying to treat Westerners and fundamentalist xians as interchangable. They are not. He is a fundamentalist xian, interchangable with a fundamentalist muslim, and is a great threat to the peace, sanity, and happiness of the world.

What a lying, steaming pile.

[timf1234]

No, just a higher number of Muslims are in an area where that kind of behavior is still tolerated because it's under control by Muslims. We have rules that prevent that kind of control for a reason.

Of course, of course.

And... in Saudi Arabai Muslims women are not allowed to drive a car.
another example of "area".

Somalia....Music is band. Your another example of "Area"

learn a little bit more about 57 OIC.
These 57 so called countries are insult to countries. These are thugs in power with the blessing of their own people. When you take sample of thugs you get thugs as president, prime minister, city Mayer, police officer.

Sudan, Muslims killing Muslims...

Nigeria, Muslims kills hundreds of Christians because they were hosting Miss Universe pageant.

Indonesia, women are beheaded because they were not wearing their scarf and were going to school.

Indian Muslims regularly through acid to women who do not cover their face in public.

Where do you live, Complexity? On Earth?

[timf1234]

Liar.

Fundamentalist muslims are equivalent to fundamentalist xians in their delusions, nastiness, and danger to the rest of us.

tim1234 is trying to treat Westerners and fundamentalist xians as interchangable. They are not. He is a fundamentalist xian, interchangable with a fundamentalist muslim, and is a great threat to the peace, sanity, and happiness of the world.

What a lying, steaming pile.

Complexity wrote:
"muslims are equivalent ...." ?

There will always be bad apple in all society. What matter most is the statistic, dude.

Society, civilization is not built out of few extremes. Society is built by all people, most people. Numbers matter.


Complexity wrote:
"Fundamentalist muslims are equivalent to fundamentalist xians in their delusions, nastiness, and danger to the rest of us."

Who cares?
What matter is how many?
How many of those bad apples are there in a society?


Do you or do you not agree with the following statement.

The number of Muslims or even percentage of Muslims, who have bad ideas, whose value system is corrupted is far greater than that of Westerners.

[Complexity]

timf1234 - I'm not going to tell the likes of you where I live.

Nor am I going to answer questions that you raise.

I have nothing but contempt for you, your beliefs, your 'god', and everyone who is like you.

I will continue to monitor posts that you write because I think that it is important to warn people of the moral travesty that is your worldview.

Do not mistake this for interest.

[timf1234]

timf1234 - I'm not going to tell the likes of you where I live.

Nor am I going to answer questions that you raise.

I have nothing but contempt for you, your beliefs, your 'god', and everyone who is like you.

I will continue to monitor posts that you write because I think that it is important to warn people of the moral travesty that is your worldview.

Do not mistake this for interest.

Why are you so upset?
I did not even call you "liar". As you called me.
Like most theists you couldn't stand the truth?
You are upset because I cornered you with my logic.

Complexity wrote:
I have nothing but contempt for you, your beliefs, your 'god', and everyone who is like you.


You couldn't even figure out that I am not a theist. you jumped to a conclusion of god/jesus. What a moron?
I speak the truth as is. I believe in naturalism. I am not pseudo atheist like you are who can't handle the bitter truth, the product of the modern fashionable liberals, PC, blind multiculturalism. I talk with sanity and rationality.
I am not proposing a ban on Muslims or any physical threat either.
We must understand that Muslims neurons is infected by Memetic Mental Virus. Muslims are the victim of Islamic mental virus.

You, Complexity, on the other hand pick and chose the truth to maintain your cognitive consonance. You are afraid of the bitter truths that brings cognitive dissonance in your mind.

A piece of advice.
Just fall in love with the truth and see how everything else become easy.
and don't jump to any conclusion like many morons do that I must have "Jesus" in mind when I talk about "truth"

not all but many atheists at this site and others are baby atheist, social atheist. These half baked atheists can't even sustain more than few links of logic with constancy. I hope you are not one of them.

Be brave, and acknowledge, that there is no larger groups of moron exist than Muslims at present time. What they are doing to our civilization are dangerous. You are dangerous because of your ignorance. I need to watch your posts for not telling the truth to the world. Do not cover up. Do not use deception, please.

[kittynh]

I have muslim friends. My daughter has worked as a nanny for a family of Iranians. They are good friends, and if you wack your head in New England you would be lucky to have the father as your surgeon. You need brain surgery, he's your man. He's the best. Period. He worked long hours saving lives. Part of his religion is that the best most highly respected jobs to have are those where you help save lives. Like policeman and fire fighter. And brain surgeon.

He's into saving lives, as are his brothers... who all just happen to be... brain surgeons! They weren't from some rich family, they all just savedand worked hard and helped each other until they all graduated.

I also know my friends have had family members of people that were quite ill at the hospital stay with them for free. Simply because it's what they do. Caring for people is part of their culture and religion. Like Christianity, it can be very very bad or very very good. Often I think these religions are used by governments with an agenda. The crusades weren't about religion. They were about power and money. ANd so it goes...

[timf1234]

I have muslim friends. My daughter has worked as a nanny for a family of Iranians. They are good friends, and if you wack your head in New England you would be lucky to have the father as your surgeon. You need brain surgery, he's your man. He's the best. Period. He worked long hours saving lives. Part of his religion is that the best most highly respected jobs to have are those where you help save lives. Like policeman and fire fighter. And brain surgeon.

He's into saving lives, as are his brothers... who all just happen to be... brain surgeons! They weren't from some rich family, they all just savedand worked hard and helped each other until they all graduated.

I also know my friends have had family members of people that were quite ill at the hospital stay with them for free. Simply because it's what they do. Caring for people is part of their culture and religion. Like Christianity, it can be very very bad or very very good. Often I think these religions are used by governments with an agenda. The crusades weren't about religion. They were about power and money. ANd so it goes...

Anecdotal or statistic?
Please read my posts above.

[Malerin]

The artist who did this: http://www.philowiki.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Pisschrist.jpg


is still alive.

Theo Van Gogh isn't.

[Malerin]

Well, we know where you're coming from.

The problem isn't just muslims, and it isn't all muslims.

The problem is fundamentalists - xian, catholics, muslims, mormons, hindus, etc. Nice try trying to focus our attention on muslim extremists, but the worst threat in the US comes from xians fundamentalists.



No it doesn't.

[timf1234]

The artist who did this: http://www.philowiki.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Pisschrist.jpg


is still alive.

Theo Van Gogh isn't.

Morons don't understand that, Malerin.
They are caught up with bleeding heart extreme left liberals, modern fashionable atheists, PC, multiculturalism, relativisitc culturalism, no absolute good or bad, right or wrong, true or lies, every thing is equally good and bad, allow everyone and every thing, no discrimination whatsoever, etc. etc.

This is what will end the Western Civilization from within.

[Malerin]

Morons don't understand that, Malerin.
They are caught up with bleeding heart extreme left liberals, modern fashionable atheists, PC, multiculturalism, relativisitc culturalism, no absolute good or bad, right or wrong, true or lies, every thing is equally good and bad, allow everyone and every thing, no discrimination whatsoever, etc. etc.

This is what will end the Western Civilization from within.

I think Western Civ will survive, but it should be noted that predator drones aren't launching Hellfire missiles at fundamentalist Christians.

I don't think Christians are necessarily better. They just benefit from the fact their belief system has had more time to mature. It wasn't too long ago, Christians were doing exactly what Muslims are doing. Maybe in a couple hundred years it will be the scientologists. Who knows?

[timf1234]

I agree with you whole heartedly except two slight corrections.

You wrote:
"I don't think Christians are necessarily better. "

Probably more accurate would have been "I don't think Christians "were" necessarily better."

I can guarantee and can prove to you that present days Christians are better than present days Muslims, by a significant margin, statistically.


secondly, Western civilization will survive?
Would it? I am not sure about it.
Plus, what do you mean by survive? I wanted it to thrive.

Islamic ideology, Western accommodation for Muslim's stupid ideas have diluted and is diluting our values that we learned a very hard way in the last 300 or 400 years.

Freedom of expression is already diluted. This is single most important cherished virtue the West had developed. Because how are you going to convince anyone of anything if I do not let you speak?


Plus, I am not afraid of terrorist at all. We know how to fight them.
I am afraid of stealth Jihad. Dilution of Western values from within.
Muslims have learned when and how to use their enemy's (the West) virtues like compassion, justice, human rights, legal and political system as their own weapon. Gullible Westerners believe everything Muslims say on its face value. Most westerners are aware of Islamic terrorism but they have not recognized the stealth Jihad.

To tell you the truth, Europe is pissing in their pant. They do not know how to handle this. In UK there are now 65 sharia civil court is in operation.

No major news paper or major TV station is willing to print or broadcast any criticism of Mohammad's behavior any longer - not because they care for Muslims sensitivity but because they are afraid.
We are now afraid in our own home country. What a pity. These 7th century through back comes here and slowly altering our value system.

Mr. Obama goes to Cairo, and lie, lie, lie up to his teeth. Praise Muslims not by exaggerating but flat lies.
He had to lie because there is nothing about Muslims praise worthy, so he made it up, to make them happy.

[Hokulele]

Mr. Obama goes to Cairo, and lie, lie, lie up to his teeth. Praise Muslims not by exaggerating but flat lies.
He had to lie because there is nothing about Muslims praise worthy, so he made it up, to make them happy.


:rolleyes:

[sgtbaker]

Alright, with some time to think about it, I let my sarcasm and negative opinions of all religions get in the way of my original point, and I do apologize for that.

Answer me these questions, though;
Do you interpret in it's most literal sense?
Do you follow biblical law to exact terms?
Please, provide indepth reasons for your answers: "I do because...I don't because..." for both questions.

[Darth Rotor]

I find muslims and xians virtually indistinguishable in terms of fanaticism, nastiness, and ignorance.

Where have we seen this before?

" To me, they all look alike."

Not well played.

[Robin]

Morons don't understand that, Malerin.
They are caught up with bleeding heart extreme left liberals, modern fashionable atheists, PC, multiculturalism, relativisitc culturalism, no absolute good or bad, right or wrong, true or lies, every thing is equally good and bad, allow everyone and every thing, no discrimination whatsoever, etc. etc.
Wow look. Every right-wing cliche buzz word all in the one sentence.

[sgtbaker]

Of course, of course.


learn a little bit more about 57 OIC.
These 57 so called countries are insult to countries. These are thugs in power with the blessing of their own people. When you take sample of thugs you get thugs as president, prime minister, city Mayer, police officer.



So you agree then, that it's not the faith that is evil, it's the people in power, using faith to keep the people subserviant and under control...thank you...that was my point all along.

[Foster Zygote]

Mr. Obama goes to Cairo, and lie, lie, lie up to his teeth. Praise Muslims not by exaggerating but flat lies.
He had to lie because there is nothing about Muslims praise worthy, so he made it up, to make them happy.

So, do you have some sort of... solution... in mind for all these evil, evil Muslims?

[Foster Zygote]

So you agree then, that it's not the faith that is evil, it's the people in power, using faith to keep the people subserviant and under control...thank you...that was my point all along.

We should also consider the effects of poverty and lack of education in forming people's attitudes.

[Cainkane1]

Are you kidding? Gay evolution-embracing, religion-mocking atheist scientist here.

Phelps and his clan.

I think that you would like to, given a chance.

A few other members of these forums, past and present.

A few of the more fundamentalist members of my family would wish death upon people like me.

Many, many fundamentalists.

The list goes on and on.
I know a Mormon who feels that homosexuality is a capital offence.

[Foster Zygote]

Sudan, Muslims killing Muslims...
Ireland: Christians killing Christians.

Nigeria, Muslims kills hundreds of Christians because they were hosting Miss Universe pageant.
Rwanda: In a country where 93.6 percent of the population is Christian, between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people are murdered by their countrymen. Some high ranking Catholic clergy have been implicated in the investigations of the causes of the genocide.

Indonesia, women are beheaded because they were not wearing their scarf and were going to school.
United States: Vernon Wayne Howell sets fire to children. Timothy McVeigh, connected with the Christian Identity Movement, bombs a building with a day care center full of children.

Indian Muslims regularly through acid to women who do not cover their face in public.
How regularly? What percentage of the Muslim population condones these acts? If all Muslims are to be associated with these actions then why aren't all Christians to be associated with the plan to murder police officers by Extremist Christians?

[Foster Zygote]

Islamic ideology, Western accommodation for Muslim's stupid ideas have diluted and is diluting our values that we learned a very hard way in the last 300 or 400 years.
Boy! You ain't kidding! Why here in the United States it's nothing but Islam everywhere you look. In print, on radio and TV, in public places. Why I can hardly turn around without some Muslim trying to force his beliefs on me.

Gullible Westerners believe everything Muslims say on its face value.
Haven't you heard? Earth is like ostrich egg. Is miracle!!!

[Mister Earl]

I can give you a little personal experience here. I was stationed a little north of Baghdad for about half a year, and had moderate contact with the locals. From the sampling of people I met with and talked to, the following seems accurate, at last for that area:

1.) Islam is more of a public social face. Like in the United States, it's fashionable to be christian, and in Iraq it is fashionable to be muslim. Many rarely attended friday prayers.

2.) Their priorities are equal to or are very similar to ours. The people I knew over there were worried about personal and familial safety, health care, and access to paying work. They like to collect junk like we do. Cell phones, laptops, expensive vehicles, anything technologically situated.

3.) Displays of personal wealth are used to increase social status. In the 'States, it might be an expensive SUV. Where I was in Iraq, that might be cable TV, a well decorated home, or a very expensive cell phone.

4.) Humor. This one threw me off a little bit. Humor between us from the United States and those in Iraq translates very well. I gave a local prankster a copy of "Jackass 2" and he instantly became a huge fan.


So to summarize, I would say, from my own personal experience, that Iraqis and Americans aren't that different. There's some dress, cultural, and of course linguistic differences, but very little beyond that.

I enjoyed my time with them, and maybe one day when and if there's peace in that area, I may do the tourist thing and revisit some old faces.

[sgtbaker]

We should also consider the effects of poverty and lack of education in forming people's attitudes.

I forgive you for not reading my exceptionally long winded post in another thread, on a similar topic but yes, I do consider those two, to be the top reasons why they could possibly be so easily kept under control.

[timf1234]

I can give you a little personal experience here. I was stationed a little north of Baghdad for about half a year, and had moderate contact with the locals. From the sampling of people I met with and talked to, the following seems accurate, at last for that area:

1.) Islam is more of a public social face. Like in the United States, it's fashionable to be christian, and in Iraq it is fashionable to be muslim. Many rarely attended friday prayers.

2.) Their priorities are equal to or are very similar to ours. The people I knew over there were worried about personal and familial safety, health care, and access to paying work. They like to collect junk like we do. Cell phones, laptops, expensive vehicles, anything technologically situated.

3.) Displays of personal wealth are used to increase social status. In the 'States, it might be an expensive SUV. Where I was in Iraq, that might be cable TV, a well decorated home, or a very expensive cell phone.

4.) Humor. This one threw me off a little bit. Humor between us from the United States and those in Iraq translates very well. I gave a local prankster a copy of "Jackass 2" and he instantly became a huge fan.


So to summarize, I would say, from my own personal experience, that Iraqis and Americans aren't that different. There's some dress, cultural, and of course linguistic differences, but very little beyond that.

I enjoyed my time with them, and maybe one day when and if there's peace in that area, I may do the tourist thing and revisit some old faces.



Islam is more of a public social face.
Their priorities are equal to or are very similar to ours.
Except that when they feel the urge to behead Nick Berg and many other infidal.
Except that when the feel the urge to stab Van Ghoh.
Except that when they create riots and kills people all around the world in the reaction of Mohammad's cartoon.
Except that when fly planes into WTC.
Except that when they through acids to women for not covering their face.
Ecept that when they burn down tiny minority Christian's homes in pakistan.
Except that when they fight kill HIndu and attack in Mumbai.
Except that 78% Pakistany population approves death panelty for anyone leaving Islam or for Blasphemy - according to latest Pew Research Poll.
List goes on.....15,204 incident of Islamic rage since September 11, 2010.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Do you live in the same planet?

[timf1234]

Complexity did not have any response to the following, so he ran from the truth.
Run Complexity run. You can run but you can't hide from the truth.

Of course, of course.

And... in Saudi Arabai Muslims women are not allowed to drive a car.
another example of "area".

Somalia....Music is band. Your another example of "Area"

learn a little bit more about 57 OIC.
These 57 so called countries are insult to countries. These are thugs in power with the blessing of their own people. When you take sample of thugs you get thugs as president, prime minister, city Mayer, police officer.

Sudan, Muslims killing Muslims...

Nigeria, Muslims kills hundreds of Christians because they were hosting Miss Universe pageant.

Indonesia, women are beheaded because they were not wearing their scarf and were going to school.

Indian Muslims regularly through acid to women who do not cover their face in public.

Where do you live, Complexity? On Earth?

[Robin]

I can give you a little personal experience here. I was stationed a little north of Baghdad for about half a year, and had moderate contact with the locals. From the sampling of people I met with and talked to, the following seems accurate, at last for that area:

1.) Islam is more of a public social face. Like in the United States, it's fashionable to be christian, and in Iraq it is fashionable to be muslim. Many rarely attended friday prayers.

2.) Their priorities are equal to or are very similar to ours. The people I knew over there were worried about personal and familial safety, health care, and access to paying work. They like to collect junk like we do. Cell phones, laptops, expensive vehicles, anything technologically situated.

3.) Displays of personal wealth are used to increase social status. In the 'States, it might be an expensive SUV. Where I was in Iraq, that might be cable TV, a well decorated home, or a very expensive cell phone.

4.) Humor. This one threw me off a little bit. Humor between us from the United States and those in Iraq translates very well. I gave a local prankster a copy of "Jackass 2" and he instantly became a huge fan.


So to summarize, I would say, from my own personal experience, that Iraqis and Americans aren't that different. There's some dress, cultural, and of course linguistic differences, but very little beyond that.

I enjoyed my time with them, and maybe one day when and if there's peace in that area, I may do the tourist thing and revisit some old faces.
My brother visited Iraq and says that the Iraqis are the friendliest people he has ever met.

[Robin]

So, do you have some sort of... solution... in mind for all these evil, evil Muslims?
Well obviously the first thing to do is to avoid making distinctions between the moderate Muslims and the violent extremists, and assert at every opportunity that they are all evil.

And then we rewrite history to deny that Islamic societies ever made positive contributions to arts, mathematics and science.

This will immediately cause all extremists to see the error of their ways and give up violence and Islam altogether.

[timf1234]

Robin wrote:

My brother visited Iraq and says that the Iraqis are the friendliest people he has ever met.

Until your brother draws a cartoon of Mohammad then they offer you your brother's decapitated head on a plate for dinner. Yap, they are very friendly.

No, Muslims did not contribute much to the society. Chinese and Hindu did a lot more.
Looks like you belive clown Obama's lecture in Cairo, last year, on Islamic Civilzation. This same clown said number of Muslim Americans in the US is greater than that of 2nd largest Islamic country of the world.
So, no, we do not need to re-write history but just show the world the truth about Islam and Islamic history.

[timf1234]

Boy! You ain't kidding! Why here in the United States it's nothing but Islam everywhere you look. In print, on radio and TV, in public places. Why I can hardly turn around without some Muslim trying to force his beliefs on me.


Haven't you heard? Earth is like ostrich egg. Is miracle!!!

For you until someone bang you on your head it is someone else's problem.
Does it bother you that in the US no major media is willing to broadcast Moahammad joke any more, not because of respect but because of fear?

It does to me.

Does it bother you that Gert Wilder was banned to enter to UK until British supreme court pass judgment against the ban?

Does it bother out that in the UN, 57 OIC gang of thugs got the resolution pass, making it illegal to criticize religion? Only religion mention by name is Islam?

Does it bother you that people are scared to write anything agaisnt Islam?

I guess the only time you would care when they try to cut your throat?

[Robin]

Until your brother draws a cartoon of Mohammad then they offer you your brother's decapitated head on a plate for dinner. Yap, they are very friendly.
You are saying that every Muslim would do this? Most Muslims?
No, Muslims did not contribute much to the society. Chinese and Hindu did a lot more.
Looks like you belive clown Obama's lecture in Cairo, last year, on Islamic Civilzation.
No, I haven't read it or heard it.

I have read widely and critically about the period for a number of years. I have examined the evidence, the claims and the counter claims.

The facts of the Islamic Golden Age are well attested.

Looks like you have read the diatribe of some clown on an internet site and believed it.

[Robin]

Oh, and yes, the Hindu and Chinese cultures did contribute much more.

How does that nullify the contribution of the Arabic/Islamic societies from the 9th to the 13th century?

[Robin]

This same clown said number of Muslim Americans in the US is greater than that of 2nd largest Islamic country of the world.
Can you cite this quote?

[Complexity]

Complexity did not have any response to the following, so he ran from the truth.
Run Complexity run. You can run but you can't hide from the truth.


Are you under the illusion that I read the stuff that you write?

I stopped reading most of it after the first few posts.

I certainly won't respond to fundie nonsense - I'd end up wasting my life at your bidding. Not gonna happen.

I'm here to point out to real people that you guys are delusional and dangerous - to be avoided at all costs. That's all.

[Deneb]

Until your brother draws a cartoon of Mohammad then they offer you your brother's decapitated head on a plate for dinner. Yap, they are very friendly.

Iraq's Muslim population is mostly Shi'ah, who don't have the same prohibition against depicting images of Muhammad as the Sunni denomination. Which isn't to say that there aren't many dangerous and violent people in Iraq (or that he wouldn't get a different reaction if the people he chose to show his cartoon to happened to be Sunni), but you're not helping anything by basing your arguments on broad generalizations.

In other words, I don't think anyone here will deny that there are problems that need to be addressed, but you've clearly demonstrated your inability to identify and define these problems. As such, you're liable to do far more harm than good if any sufficient number of people were ever to take your arguments seriously. There is a comparable level of diversity in Muslim societies as there is in Christian societies (or any other major religion, really). By bringing all Muslims down to the level of the lowest common denominator and claiming that they are the victims and carriers of a mental illness, you're taking something as complex as brain surgery and tackling the matter with the precision and finesse of a drunk holding a pipe-wrench.

[timf1234]

Deneb wrote:
Iraq's Muslim population is mostly Shi'ah, who don't have the same prohibition against depicting images of Muhammad as the Sunni denomination.

Then all you will have to do is to draw cartoon of their Imam instead of Mohammad to have your head chopped off.

[timf1234]

Are you under the illusion that I read the stuff that you write?

I stopped reading most of it after the first few posts.

I certainly won't respond to fundie nonsense - I'd end up wasting my life at your bidding. Not gonna happen.

I'm here to point out to real people that you guys are delusional and dangerous - to be avoided at all costs. That's all.

And I say the same thing about you.
You are the dangerious guy. YOu and people like you will have Western Civilization vanish. You are in bed with enemy.

[DC]

Christians would tell you about Christ.

Muslims would kill you.

wow lucky me, i have often spoken to moslems, and they told me about Jesus and Mohammed, but lucky not one of them has killed me sofar. must be i havent met a real moslem yet :rolleyes:

[Complexity]

And I say the same thing about you.
You are the dangerious guy. YOu and people like you will have Western Civilization vanish. You are in bed with enemy.


It is xianity that you value, not western civilization. Quit lying about that.

I want to destroy superstition, and that includes destroying religion, xianity, and especially fundamentalism of all varieties.

I have a great deal of respect for several aspects of western civilization.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by timf1234
This same clown said number of Muslim Americans in the US is greater than that of 2nd largest Islamic country of the world.
Can you cite this quote?
Can you cite where Barack Obama said that the number of Muslim Americans in the US is greater than that or the 2nd largest Islamic country of the world?

[Robin]

And I say the same thing about you.
You are the dangerious guy. YOu and people like you will have Western Civilization vanish. You are in bed with enemy.
Well actually you are more useful to the violent Islamic extremists.

They hate moderate Muslims who integrate and participate in Western societies and seek to alienate them from those societies.

Since you also seek to alienate moderate Muslims you are working to their agenda.

[timf1234]

Can you cite this quote?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBf69OVqyE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmuE-kNgeSA

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/04/barack-obama/obama-claims-america-one-largest-muslim-countries/

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/11784374.asp?scr=1

Obama, speech in Cairo was written by the help of his Muslim speech writer - full of lie.

For Robin, Complexity, and other liberals who thinks they know about stealth jihad "you folks don't know jack about Islam.


The facts of the Islamic Golden Age are well attested.
Not at all.
You are parroting like Obama parroted false good things about Islamic history in his Cairo speech.
Do your own research, spent time, years learning on this topic then you will know. Yes, I have done so.
Anyone who has done so, they know.

[timf1234]

wow lucky me, i have often spoken to moslems, and they told me about Jesus and Mohammed, but lucky not one of them has killed me sofar. must be i havent met a real moslem yet :rolleyes:

Did you draw a cartoon of Mohammad and became famous?
Did you expose that Mohammad married 9 years old girl?
You must be living in the same planet where all other liberals live.

[timf1234]

Compleity,

But you couldn't address the following charges. You ran like a liberal lobotomized hipocrat. Throwing all kinds of labels against me.

Of course, of course.

And... in Saudi Arabai Muslims women are not allowed to drive a car.
another example of "area".

Somalia....Music is band. Your another example of "Area"

learn a little bit more about 57 OIC.
These 57 so called countries are insult to countries. These are thugs in power with the blessing of their own people. When you take sample of thugs you get thugs as president, prime minister, city Mayer, police officer.

Sudan, Muslims killing Muslims...

Nigeria, Muslims kills hundreds of Christians because they were hosting Miss Universe pageant.

Indonesia, women are beheaded because they were not wearing their scarf and were going to school.

Indian Muslims regularly through acid to women who do not cover their face in public.

Where do you live, Complexity? On Earth?

[quixotecoyote]

Compleity,

But you couldn't address the following charges. You ran like a liberal lobotomized hipocrat. Throwing all kinds of labels against me.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1026149ecd1b6d92cc.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16100)

[Mister Agenda]

Did you draw a cartoon of Mohammad and became famous?
Did you expose that Mohammad married 9 years old girl?
You must be living in the same planet where all other liberals live.

Rarely a week goes by that I am not visiting a Muslim at home, more often than I visit the homes of Christians, frankly.

When visiting the home of people I know to be Christian, I don't draw rude pictures of Jesus or expose that Lot had sex with his daughters. The former is rude and the latter is rude and assumes that they are not familiar with their own holy text.

Why do you think I should be rude to Muslims when I am polite to Christians?

I'm a nice guy, but I'm a little mercenary, too. I'm willing to be rude for money. How about we do an experiment? You give me $500, $250 up front to show your good faith, and I'll draw a cartoon of Mohammed in front of three Muslim families and tell them all that Mohammed married a 9-year-old. I will collect signed statements from the heads of household verifying what I have done and have someone photo me holding the cartoon and showing it to them. These I will post. If, after 90 days I am still among the living and no attempt has been made on my life, you send me the rest of the $250. If I am murdered or an attempt on my life is made that can be traced back to any Muslim, I (or my lawyer in the event of my death), will send you $5000.

If you agree to the experiment/bet (I'm betting the Muslims I know will not get violent under these circumstances, although they might not want to be friends with me anymore; you're betting they'll kill me for offending their religous sensibilities), we can work out the details by PM. They're all Sunnis, by the way.

PS: I am planning on attending the wedding of a Muslim girl I used to tutor in August, so it would be helpful if you send the $250 before the middle of May. I want to give the $500 to her as a wedding present.

[Robin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBf69OVqyE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmuE-kNgeSA

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/04/barack-obama/obama-claims-america-one-largest-muslim-countries/

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/11784374.asp?scr=1
Where do any of these support your claim that Obama said "number of Muslim Americans in the US is greater than that of 2nd largest Islamic country of the world"?

They don't

Can you support the claim or can't you?

[Robin]

Not at all.
You are parroting like Obama parroted false good things about Islamic history in his Cairo speech.
Do your own research, spent time, years learning on this topic then you will know.
You don't read very well do you? I already said that I have been reading widely and critically about this for years.
Yes, I have done so.
Given your above effort I doubt you even understand the concept of research.
Anyone who has done so, they know.
Well Gaston Wiet, for example is an academic who has studied the region professionally and he has not come to that conclusion - you can read chapter 5 of his book "Baghdad: Metropolis of the Abbasid Caliphate" online at http://www.fordham.edu/halsal/med/wiet.html

Also Saul Friedman's History of the Middle East, chapter 8 is good, especially as Friedman gives a good even handed evaluation of the period.

On the transmission of this knowledge to the coming European Renaissance, we can see that the Medieval Fransiscan scholars who were seminal in the development of the scientific method were greatly influenced and informed by Islamic scholarship, for example Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says of Roger Bacon "Between 1247 and 1267, Bacon mastered most of the Greek and Islamic texts on Optics.", he also translated a number of Arabic texts, such as in education and statecraft.

And this is only a subset of the acheivements of the period.

I am puzzled as to which of these things you claim did not happen.

[Robin]

Did you expose that Mohammad married 9 years old girl?

Muslims often raise this topic themselves - it is hardly taboo for them, it is in the Hadiths.

Shi'ites of course don't accept the Hadiths narrated by A'isha but even for Sunnis, it is not as though they avoid the subject.

[Complexity]

Be killed outright or be talked to by a xian about jeebus...

I'm gonna need more time.

[Resume]

Muslims often raise this topic themselves - it is hardly taboo for them, it is in the Hadiths.

Shi'ites of course don't accept the Hadiths narrated by A'isha but even for Sunnis, it is not as though they avoid the subject.

If they don't avoid the subject, how do they address it?

[Robin]

If they don't avoid the subject, how do they address it?
One way it has been handled is to suggest that the dates reported by Aisha are incorrect and that Muhammad would have waited

[Resume]

One way it has been handled is to suggest that the dates reported by Aisha are incorrect and that Muhammad would have waited

Waited for . . ?

[Robin]

Waited for . . ?
Sorry, submitted too early. Waited for her to reach puberty.

[Resume]

Sorry, submitted too early. Waited for her to reach puberty.

How sporting of him.

[DC]

Did you draw a cartoon of Mohammad and became famous?
Did you expose that Mohammad married 9 years old girl?
You must be living in the same planet where all other liberals live.

no im not a cartoon drawer.
but one of them had a drawing of Mohammed on his Koran.
with another one i did indeed talk about Mohammed and his 9 year old wife and no beheading followed.

[al Buraq]

Not that it makes any difference, but it was for apostasy rather than blasphemy.

Ironically the Quran states that their can be no compulsion in religion and yet a majority of Muslims favour compulsion in religion.

Islamic doctrine states that all non-Muslims must be converted to Islam, enslaved or killed.

The Quran ayat pertaining to "no compulsion" is often cited by Islamic apologists to show Islam is tolerant toward kafirs, but, it is not.

[al Buraq]

Muslims often raise this topic themselves - it is hardly taboo for them, it is in the Hadiths.

Shi'ites of course don't accept the Hadiths narrated by A'isha but even for Sunnis, it is not as though they avoid the subject.

Many, if not most, Muslims are unaware of the nasty parts of Muhammad's biography, such as his marriage to a 6 year-old little girl when in his 50s, still playing with her toys, which constitutes pedophilia. It's not very "Prophet-like" behavior.

[al Buraq]

Did you draw a cartoon of Mohammad and became famous?
Did you expose that Mohammad married 9 years old girl?
You must be living in the same planet where all other liberals live.

Mahomet married 6 years old girl. He graciously waiting for her to have her menstrual cycle at age 9 to "consummate" the marriage.

Until that time, he sexually molested his child wife.

[Robin]

Islamic doctrine states that all non-Muslims must be converted to Islam, enslaved or killed.
Can you cite this doctrine? I am not doubting you, but there are lots of claims made here with no back up. I would like to be able to check them for myself.

[Robin]

Many, if not most, Muslims are unaware of the nasty parts of Muhammad's biography, such as his marriage to a 6 year-old little girl when in his 50s, still playing with her toys, which constitutes pedophilia.
Well as I said Shi'ites would regard these Hadiths as being spurious.

But most Muslims I have ever met have been aware of those Hadiths.

[Robin]

Mahomet married 6 years old girl. He graciously waiting for her to have her menstrual cycle at age 9 to "consummate" the marriage.

Until that time, he sexually molested his child wife.
Again, do you have any evidence that he sexually molested Aisha before the age of nine?

I would have thought that the available evidence says that she continued to live with her family after the marriage.

And don't quote that Hadith, as someone before did, about her washing semen off his robes, because that does not say anything about her age at the time.

[DC]

Mahomet married 6 years old girl. He graciously waiting for her to have her menstrual cycle at age 9 to "consummate" the marriage.

Until that time, he sexually molested his child wife.

source?

[Augustus]

Just saw this and had to respond.

Behead innoncent random people, video tape it, post it on the internet.

There are definite incidents of Christian terrorism. Look at the groups Army of God and Concerned Christians, and loners such as Eric Rudolph. More recently, the Hutaree militia, a Christian group, was planning on killing a bunch of police officers.

Will fly plane into the building.

And so did that fellow in Texas not too long ago, and he definitely wasn't a Muslim.

Thinks 1 man have 4 wives is justified.

Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints would agree with them.

Thinks 2 women witness = 1 man witness is fair.

This is not an uncommon belief, especially in the Judeo-Christian religions.

Thinks suicide bombing and killing hundreds of innocent civilian is justified as long as it advances their religion.

The first reported incident of suicide bombing involved a Lebanese Christian attacking Muslims.

Curtail freedom of speech.

Harry Potter, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Jennifer Has Two Daddies, etc.

[154]

It never ceases to amaze me how very often, only in western cultures, Christian-haters will defend and excuse Islam so long as they can rag on Christianity.

[al Buraq]

Can you cite this doctrine? I am not doubting you, but there are lots of claims made here with no back up. I would like to be able to check them for myself.

You're joking, right?

[Augustus]

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians will be so concerned with the faults of other religions but never, ever bother to address the short-comings of their own faith.

[al Buraq]

source?

Hadith.

[Robin]

It never ceases to amaze me how very often, only in western cultures, Christian-haters will defend and excuse Islam so long as they can rag on Christianity.
Can you be a little more specific?

Who are you calling a Christian hater?

Who are you saying is defending and excusing Islam and where are they doing this?

[DC]

It never ceases to amaze me how very often, only in western cultures, Christian-haters will defend and excuse Islam so long as they can rag on Christianity.

so pointing out that christian extremists also do comparable things like other extremists from other religions is now rated as hating christians......

why ? are you Christian yourself?

[al Buraq]

Again, do you have any evidence that he sexually molested Aisha before the age of nine?

I would have thought that the available evidence says that she continued to live with her family after the marriage.

And don't quote that Hadith, as someone before did, about her washing semen off his robes, because that does not say anything about her age at the time.

Mahomet rubbed his crotch against Aisha until the age of 9, known as "thighing", ejaculating in his pants, documented in the Hadith.

That constitutes child molestation.

[paximperium]

It never ceases to amaze me how very often, only in western cultures, Christian-haters will defend and excuse Islam so long as they can rag on Christianity.
Isn't that great? Western culture tends to value freedom or speech and debate.

Christian culture tends to censor and attempt to shut down such freedoms with blaspheme laws.

[paximperium]

so pointing out that christian extremists also do comparable things like other extremists from other religions is now rated as hating christians......

why ? are you Christian yourself?
154 is a fundie Christian troll who has lost virtually every nonsense he has claimed in multiple other threads and is now here to troll and do the Christian Whine.

[154]

Good morning, Pax.

[Robin]

Hadith.
Here we go again.

Which Hadith? There are quite a lot of them you know.

[paximperium]

Mahomet rubbed his crotch against Aisha until the age of 9, known as "thighing", ejaculating in his pants, documented in the Hadith.

That constitutes child molestation.
Could you please cite the Hadith that claims this?

[Robin]

You're joking, right?
I don't understand how asking for a source can be construed as a joke.

[al Buraq]

And don't quote that Hadith, as someone before did, about her washing semen off his robes, because that does not say anything about her age at the time.

Thighing was an Islamic custom that Mahomet employed with Aisha when she was 6, until she began menstruating at age 9.

The Hadith document the "results" of Mahomet's ejaculation in his pants. If Mahomet had normal intercourse with Aisha, presumably, at an older age, he would not have accumulated semen on his trousers.

[154]

Isn't that great? Western culture tends to value freedom or speech and debate.

Christian culture tends to censor and attempt to shut down such freedoms with blaspheme laws.

Western civilization and culture's freedoms have come from their Judeo-Christian heritage.

"Censoring and attempting to shut down" is the province of Leftists. See David Horowitz or Ann Coulter.

[al Buraq]

Well as I said Shi'ites would regard these Hadiths as being spurious.

So, what? The vast majority of Muslims are Sunni.

[154]

Thighing was an Islamic custom that Mahomet employed with Aisha when she was 6, until she began menstruating at age 9.

The Hadith document the "results" of Mahomet's ejaculation in his pants. If Mahomet had normal intercourse with Aisha, presumably, at an older age, he would not have accumulated semen on his trousers.

Oh, that makes it ok then, huh?

Who are the mighty Islam fighters on this forum?

[Resume]

It never ceases to amaze me how very often, only in western cultures, Christian-haters will defend and excuse Islam so long as they can rag on Christianity.

I rag on all religions. Don't generalize.

[Robin]

Mahomet rubbed his crotch against Aisha until the age of 9, known as "thighing", ejaculating in his pants, documented in the Hadith.

Again, please be a little more specific about this?

And again, don't waste my time with that Hadith about her washing semen out of his robes since it does not, as I pointed out before, give her age at the time or evidence of the so-called "thighing".

[paximperium]

Western civilization and culture's freedoms have come from their Judeo-Christian heritage. So you've proven yourself ignorant about science, your own Babel and now history.

Is there anything that you actually know?

"Censoring and attempting to shut down" is the province of Leftists. See David Horowitz or Ann Coulter.Wow. Those morons sure have been shut up and censored...oh wait..making garbage up again huh? Nothing beats the Christian Whine whine whine.

[Augustus]

Western civilization and culture's freedoms have come from their Judeo-Christian heritage.

"Censoring and attempting to shut down" is the province of Leftists. See David Horowitz or Ann Coulter.

Bull. The current idea of freedom in western civilization came from the enlightenment, and so much of the enlightenment was just a rejection of Christian thinking. There's a reason that quite a number of the big 19th century guys were not Christian, and that's because they inherited the philosophical traits of the Enlightenment.

[DC]

Hadith.

Marc, a bit more precise please.

[154]

Is there anything that you actually know?
I know you're an *******, but that's ok because so am I.

To properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 and do not attempt to evade the auto-censor

[al Buraq]

I don't understand how asking for a source can be construed as a joke.

It would be a joke to suggest Islamic doctrine does not mandate all kafirs convert to Islam or be killed, unless Jewish or Christian, in which case, debasement and humiliation in dhimmitude might be an option.

Jihaad, the foundation of Islam, in its very essence, is the goal of establishing a global caliphate under which all must subscribe to the tenets of Islam.

[154]

Jihaad, the foundation of Islam, in its very essence, is the goal of establishing a global caliphate under which all must subscribe to the tenets of Islam.

No, no, no...

It's a personal internal struggle for goodness...

[paximperium]

Bull. The current idea of freedom in western civilization came from the enlightenment, and so much of the enlightenment was just a rejection of Christian thinking. There's a reason that quite a number of the big 19th century guys were not Christian, and that's because they inherited the philosophical traits of the Enlightenment.
Oh, I have no problem with the fact that the Enlightenment and some basic "western" beliefs may have some basis with Christianity. But then I can easily claim that Christianity has many beliefs based on Greek philosophy as well.

[paximperium]

I know you're an *******, but that's ok because so am I.
Now that's pretty obvious. The big difference I actually know what I'm talking about and am not an ignorant dishonest deluded one.

[Robin]

Thighing was an Islamic custom
Evidence?
... that Mahomet employed with Aisha when she was 6, until she began menstruating at age 9.

The Hadith document the "results" of Mahomet's ejaculation in his pants.
Ah, so you are depending on the hadith that simply mentions that she washed semen from his robes and mentions none of the other details in your claim, including her age at the time.
If Mahomet had normal intercourse with Aisha, presumably, at an older age, he would not have accumulated semen on his trousers.
So you can only get spots of semen on a robe by "thighing" an underage girl? Is that what you are saying?

Normal intercourse with older women never results in semen spots on clothing?

I have no idea why people need to invent stuff like this.

Isn't sex with a nine year old girl bad enough?

[paximperium]

It would be a joke to suggest Islamic doctrine does not mandate all kafirs convert to Islam or be killed, unless Jewish or Christian, in which case, debasement and humiliation in dhimmitude might be an option.

Jihaad, the foundation of Islam, in its very essence, is the goal of establishing a global caliphate under which all must subscribe to the tenets of Islam.
Still waiting for an actual Hadith.

[Augustus]

Oh, I have no problem with the fact that the Enlightenment and some basic "western" beliefs may have some basis with Christianity. But then I can easily claim that Christianity has many beliefs based on Greek philosophy as well.

Oh, we're on the same side dude. I was presenting the enlightenment as a partial rejection of traditional Christianity.

[paximperium]

Isn't sex with a nine year old girl bad enough?
Mohammad was not a nice character and Islam as practiced is not a nice religion but making crap up about it just makes the claimant look foolish.

[DC]

It would be a joke to suggest Islamic doctrine does not mandate all kafirs convert to Islam or be killed, unless Jewish or Christian, in which case, debasement and humiliation in dhimmitude might be an option.

Jihaad, the foundation of Islam, in its very essence, is the goal of establishing a global caliphate under which all must subscribe to the tenets of Islam.

and still who went out all over the globe to spread its religion? for example in south america ?

[paximperium]

Oh, we're on the same side dude. I was presenting the enlightenment as a partial rejection of traditional Christianity.
I'm not disagreeing. I'm just being disagreeable. :o

[Robin]

It would be a joke to suggest Islamic doctrine does not mandate all kafirs convert to Islam or be killed, unless Jewish or Christian, in which case, debasement and humiliation in dhimmitude might be an option.

Jihaad, the foundation of Islam, in its very essence, is the goal of establishing a global caliphate under which all must subscribe to the tenets of Islam.
I am not sure why you don't understand that I am asking for the source of the claim, rather than for you to repeat the claim.

[154]

"Not nice."

What a bold and courageous stand.

[al Buraq]

Still waiting for an actual Hadith.

The study of Islamic doctrine does not not lend itself to a few ahadith citations.

The Islamic concept of Dar al-Islam, House of Islam, and Dar al-Harb, House of War, however, places all people in only two categories: Muslim or non-Muslim. It is the duty of every Muslim in the House of Islam to make war on those kafirs in the House of War until no kafirs are left, through conversion or jihaad.

[al Buraq]

I am not sure why you don't understand that I am asking for the source of the claim, rather than for you to repeat the claim.

I am guessing you have not read the Reliance of the Traveller, nor Ibn Kathir nor Qutb nor Mawdudi.

That would be a good foundation for gaining an understanding of Islamic doctrine.

[paximperium]

"Not nice."

What a bold and courageous stand.
Yes because that's the truth.
Fundamentalist Islam is a dangerous, ignorant and deluded belief that deserves to be stamped out similar to your stupid based Christian fundie beliefs.

Moderate and reasonable muslims and christians can belief whatever they want to believe as long as it does not impinge or harm others.

[154]

It is the duty of every Muslim in the House of Islam to make war on those kafirs in the House of War until no kafirs are left, through conversion or jihaad.

It is not "extremists" or "radicals." It is Islam.

[Robin]

I am guessing you have not read the Reliance of the Traveller, nor Ibn Kathir nor Qutb nor Mawdudi.

That would be a good foundation for gaining an understanding of Islamic doctrine.
Any particular reason why you have to be so evasive about my question?

[al Buraq]

Evidence?

Ah, so you are depending on the hadith that simply mentions that she washed semen from his robes and mentions none of the other details in your claim, including her age at the time.

So you can only get spots of semen on a robe by "thighing" an underage girl? Is that what you are saying?

Normal intercourse with older women never results in semen spots on clothing?

I have no idea why people need to invent stuff like this.

Isn't sex with a nine year old girl bad enough?

Normal intercourse does not involve wearing trousers.

Mahomet wore trousers while having sex with Aisha because he thighed her because she was too young for intercourse because she was not menstruating because she was just 6 years old. Pedophilia.

Mahomet also confessed to her father, Abu Bakr, of dreaming about Aisha when she would have been 5 years old. Pedophilia.

In any case, a 52 year old man having ANY sexual contact with a prepubescent or recent postpubescent girl constitutes pedophilia.

[al Buraq]

Any particular reason why you have to be so evasive about my question?

IIRC, I suggested reading Reliance of the Traveller, the classic book of Islamic jurisprudence, and Islamic scholars Ibn Kathir, Qutb and Mawdudi for a foundation of Islamic doctrine opposing non-Muslims.

Reliance of the Traveller
Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word 'mujahada', signifying warfare to establish the religion.

[Robin]

Normal intercourse does not involve wearing trousers.
I think the hadith says "robes"

Again, are you suggesting that intercourse between consenting adults cannot result in semen spots on clothing?

I have got to say that this is not my experience.

[Cainkane1]

My problems with Islam are many. Like Christianity its a woo woo religion. Unlike modern Christianity they will kill to get their way. I don't feel they belong in a free society because they don't believe in freedom and they treat women and female children like property. This includes execution for crimes such as being found with your boyfriends hand up your Burka like a 16 year old girl in Iran who was hung for this offence.

Moderate Muslims are so afraid of their radical counterparts that they are afraid to speak out against the mindless violence their more fanatical counterparts mete out. Islam is a bad religion among bad religions.

[al Buraq]

I think the hadith says "robes"

Again, are you suggesting that intercourse between consenting adults cannot result in semen spots on clothing?

I have got to say that this is not my experience.

Typical Islamic apologist response, desperately trying to rationalize a middle-age sexual predator, aka Muhammad, molesting an under-age girl.

[Resume]

It is not "extremists" or "radicals." It is Islam.

I'll see your Islam and raise you the two remaining Abrahamic superstitions.

[paximperium]

Typical Islamic apologist response, desperately trying to rationalize a middle-age sexual predator, aka Muhammad, molesting an under-age girl.
Any of this evidence of molesting yet?

[al Buraq]

Any of this evidence of molesting yet?

Sahih Muslim, B8N3310
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

[Robin]

IIRC, I suggested reading Reliance of the Traveller, the classic book of Islamic jurisprudence, and Islamic scholars Ibn Kathir, Qutb and Mawdudi for a foundation of Islamic doctrine opposing non-Muslims.

Reliance of the Traveller
Finally, what I asked for.

To give the full quote;

Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad,

"We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."

But it does not say anything about killing all non-Muslims.

Again - why the need to exaggerate? Islam in general supports the use of warfare to establish religion, just as did the early scriptures of the Judeo-Christian religion.

Christianity has often been spread by warfare. By and large Christians have moved away from this.

By and large Muslims have also moved away from this.

The problem is the extremist element who have not. Lumping all Muslims in with them does not help.

In fact it is just what the extremists want.

[Robin]

Typical Islamic apologist response, desperately trying to rationalize a middle-age sexual predator, aka Muhammad, molesting an under-age girl.
If you think I am an Islamic apologist or trying to rationalise a sexual predator then you are obviously not reading what I have written.

Why does that not surprise me?

But try reading - I specifically said
"I have no idea why people need to invent stuff like this.

Isn't sex with a nine year old girl bad enough? "

In effect you blunt your attack by going too far.

[al Buraq]

Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad,

"We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."

But it does not say anything about killing all non-Muslims.

Yes, it does. See highlighted text, above.

Again - why the need to exaggerate? Islam in general supports the use of warfare to establish religion, just as did the early scriptures of the Judeo-Christian religion.

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament decree mass murder of non-Jews and non-Christians in the furtherance of their respective ideologies.

Only Islam does so.

By and large Muslims have also moved away from this.

How do you know? Are you a mind-reader?

[Robin]

Sahih Muslim, B8N3310
So you are quoting a hadith that says she didn't move in with him until she was nine and still maintaining that he molested her earlier than that.

[al Buraq]

So you are quoting a hadith that says she didn't move in with him until she was nine and still maintaining that he molested her earlier than that.

You're back to joking, again.

Any middle-aged man--self-proclaimed prophet or otherwise--wedded to a 6 year old little girl still playng with her toys and dreaming about her at age 5 is a PEDOPHILE.

Accept that Muhammad was a sexual predator.

[Robin]

Yes, it does. See highlighted text, above.
It says war against, that does not say killing them all.

If we go to war against a country that does not mean that we kill them all.
Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament decree mass murder of non-Jews and non-Christians in the furtherance of their respective ideologies.
Deuteronomy 13:12-18

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

[Robin]

You're back to joking, again.

Any middle-aged man--self-proclaimed prophet or otherwise--wedded to a 6 year old little girl still playng with her toys and dreaming about her at age 5 is a PEDOPHILE.

Accept that Muhammad was a sexual predator.
I never said he wasn't - but his sexual connection with Aisha started at nine, not six as you keep stating.

The hadith does not state that the dream is of a sexual nature and she did not move in with Muhammad until she was nine.

Try reading what I am actually saying.

[Robin]

How do you know? Are you a mind-reader?
No, I talk with people and read what they have to say.

[al Buraq]

No, I talk with people and read what they have to say.

But, do you read their minds to determine they do not have jihaad in their hearts?

Because, jihaad is a religious duty in Islam. Like the Hajj, every Muslim must perform jihaad in their lifetime.

[DC]

But, do you read their minds to determine they do not have jihaad in their hearts?

Because, jihaad is a religious duty in Islam. Like the Hajj, every Muslim must perform jihaad in their lifetime.

which jihad to they have to perform? the inner struggle one or the war jihad?

and when will the those dangerous muslims start beheading all of us unbelivers?

[al Buraq]

I never said he wasn't - but his sexual connection with Aisha started at nine, not six as you keep stating.

The hadith does not state that the dream is of a sexual nature and she did not move in with Muhammad until she was nine.

Try reading what I am actually saying.

Now, you're back to rationalizing. There is no difference between a 52 year-old man having sex with a 6 year-old girl and a 9 year-old girl.

It's STILL pedophilia and you're attempting to excuse a sexual predator.

[DC]

Now, you're back to rationalizing. There is no difference between a 52 year-old man having sex with a 6 year-old girl and a 9 year-old girl.

It's STILL pedophilia and you're attempting to excuse a sexual predator.

when did it happen? what was the average age of marriage back then?

[Augustus]

I know that the age of marriage has been extremely low until the last few hundred years. I know during the Roman era it was not uncommon for women as young as twelve to be married, so it's not unlikely that some were marrying long before that. Even into the 14th and 15th century it wasn't strange for sixteen year old girls to marry men twice their age, and again since this is an average it would have gone lower. Marriages back in the middle ages could involve the bride being as young as two - though they didn't leave home until later - and in ancient China dynastic marriages were conducted while extremely young.

[al Buraq]

I know that the age of marriage has been extremely low until the last few hundred years. I know during the Roman era it was not uncommon for women as young as twelve to be married, so it's not unlikely that some were marrying long before that. Even into the 14th and 15th century it wasn't strange for sixteen year old girls to marry men twice their age, and again since this is an average it would have gone lower. Marriages back in the middle ages could involve the bride being as young as two - though they didn't leave home until later - and in ancient China dynastic marriages were conducted while extremely young.

Correct, people married younger in earlier years, but, and this is a big but, both parties were of similar ages.

Never has it been acceptable, except for Muhammad, for a man in his 50's to be married to a 6 year old girl. Further, Muhammad was married to multiple other wives at the same time.

I get nauseous just thinking about it.

[Augustus]

Incorrect. Especially following major plagues, the average age of the woman dropped and the average age of the man increased.

[al Buraq]

Incorrect. Especially following major plagues, the average age of the woman dropped and the average age of the man increased.

Never has any civilized society sanctioned a 52 year-old man marrying a 6 year-old.

It is pedophilia.

Aisha's father was not happy with Muhammad's marriage to his young daughter, but, Muhammad, the sexual predator, forced himself on her, anyway.

[Augustus]

Would you say that, for instance, a 24 year old marrying and impregnating a 12 year old girl would be acceptable? This has happened in English society (This is, of course, Henry VII's parents).

[al Buraq]

It says war against, that does not say killing them all.

Now, you're reduced to desperately parsing words.

Jihaad against the kafir, as defined, accurately so, in the Reliance of The Traveller, a classic book of Islamic law, does not distinguish among kafirs with blue eyes or kafirs with blond hair or tall kafirs or short kafirs or male or female kafirs.

ALL kafirs, under Islamic law, as articulated in Reliance, are subject to Muslim warfare with the goal of dominance over them and their belief system and establishing a global Islamic Kingdom.

In order to achieve this objective, kafirs face two stark options: convert or die.

Jews and Christians might have the option of neither provided they agree to being stripped of most of their freedoms and rights and agree to pay a forced jizya tax, otherwise, known as extortion, like the Mafia does.

Deuteronomy 13:12-18

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.


Now, you try to deflect from Islam, a typical, lame tactic of Islamic apologists.
Except, nothing you cite, much as you hope to try, illustrates an ideology of persecution, terrorizing and mass murder of non-Jews or non-Christians, as the Quran explicitly ordains so of non-Muslims.

You cited tribal conflicts in a fixed period of time.
Islam demands global conflict for eternity, until Islam dominates the world.

Quran 8.012...

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.


Islam demands genocide of non-Muslims who do not submit to conversion...

Quran 17:16...
When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.


Jihaad is an Islamic duty...

Quran 2.216...
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.


Jihaadists are higher than those who refrain from jihaad. Dying in jihaad is the one assurance of entry into Paradise, where 72 virgins await the testosterone-soaked jihaadist...

Quran 4:95...
Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward

[Complexity]

Sigh.

Fake-muslim woo is so 1980s.

[al Buraq]

Sigh.

Fake-muslim woo is so 1980s.

Typical Islamic apologist.

[Complexity]

Typical Islamic apologist.


That's truly funny.

You don't know who I am, do you?

[paximperium]

That's truly funny.

You don't know who I am, do you?
Anyone who does not believe al buraq's claims is an apologist. It's pretty funny.

[al Buraq]

That's truly funny.

You don't know who I am, do you?

The Angel Gabriel?

[paximperium]

The Angel Gabriel?
That's Jibreel to you bub.

[Complexity]

The Angel Gabriel?


Damn - you were supposed to say 'No', and then I was going to say 'Good'.

:mad:

[al Buraq]

Damn - you were supposed to say 'No', and then I was going to say 'Good'.

:mad:

You're the Twelfth Imam in hiding in Minnesota?

[al Buraq]

Damn - you were supposed to say 'No', and then I was going to say 'Good'.

:mad:

I thought Islam is the religion of peace. No?