Somali Radicals and music

[Paradox74]

Just when I thought that the Middle couldn't get any nuttier:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/25/somalia-radicals-declare-music-un-islamic-and-radio-goes-tune/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2 010%2F04%2F25%2Fsomalia-radicals-declare-music-un-islamic-and-radio-goes-tune%2F

[Complexity]

Ignorant nasty idiots.

[steve s]

The music decree follows a string of fundamentalist decrees, including prohibitions on wearing bras (also "un-Islamic"),

They just like to see boobs bounce. Dirty old men.

Steve S

[geni]

Just when I thought that the Middle couldn't get any nuttier:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/25/somalia-radicals-declare-music-un-islamic-and-radio-goes-tune/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2 010%2F04%2F25%2Fsomalia-radicals-declare-music-un-islamic-and-radio-goes-tune%2F

Taliban had a simular ban and it was an issue back during the algerian civil war.

[Complexity]

Taliban had a simular ban and it was an issue back during the algerian civil war.


Don't forget the attempts by xians in the US.

[Manopolus]

Now I know that Somalia is a doomed country.

[Trent Wray]

Even intro music for news reports was scrapped. In its place? "We are using sounds such as gunfire, the noise of vehicles and the sound of birds to link up our programmes and news," said one Somalian head of radio programming.
WOW. Holy ****.

[lionking]

I see very little hope at all for that country.

[Darth Rotor]

Don't forget the attempts by xians in the US.
Wrong answer.

They were most often objecting to certain kinds and styles of music, not all music as the OP points out. (You are free to Goggle "make joyful noise unto the Lord" and much else if you like, but I doubt you'll bother to do so).

Significant difference ... and also note how successul it was(not). :cool:

If the story as told in the OP is true, I think it's funny that the radio stations subbed in gunfire and vehicle noise instead of music. A little creative thinking.

Even more interesting, the sounds of cars and trucks are found in any number of popular songs I grew up with, and gunfire wasn't that uncommon either ... nor cannon, such as in the finale to Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. (Granted, that was gunfire with music, rather than instead of music).

DR

[TimCallahan]

History repeats itself. In Russia, ca. 1500, musical instruments were briefly banned.

There are a number of possible responses to this vie lot. One would be to buzz their territories with remote operate drones that would blare out Islamic music. Let these jerks shoot down planes playing music that glorifies Muhammad.

Another solution is to give military aid - short of sending our own troops in - to the Christian and pagan peoples of Darfur, so they can drive the Muslims out of their region. Then they could secede, and we could recognize the new country, while the Muslim north sinks into an abyss of hatred, ignorance and poverty.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I see very little hope at all for that country.

It does break one's heart.

[Darth Rotor]

It does break one's heart.

Don't let it. What you once saw on the map as "Somalia" is in the process of breaking into three different lumps, with the northern third, or so, having the best prospects for salvaging something workable out of this mess.

(Been a few months, don't know where the Economist article on this is ... )

[Robin]

I understand they are even suppressing traditional music and dance in the villages - which makes it an act of cultural vandalism as well.

Even Saudi Arabia allows music.

[Darth Rotor]

I understand they are even suppressing traditional music and dance in the villages - which makes it an act of cultural vandalism as well.
Cultural vandalism?

Can you not also classify this as cultural change?

Cultures do change, whether you like the change or not.

(But I still think, personally, it's a screwed up idea by the no fun gang ... are we sure these Islamists aren't Baptists and Calvinists in disguise? :confused: Fake beards and such ... )

DR

[Robin]

Cultural vandalism?

Can you not also classify this as cultural change?

Cultures do change, whether you like the change or not.

(But I still think, personally, it's a screwed up idea by the no fun gang ... are we sure these Islamists aren't Baptists and Calvinists in disguise? :confused: Fake beards and such ... )

DR
OK. So the Taliban blowing up those Buddha statues was cultural change?

[Darth Rotor]

OK. So the Taliban blowing up those Buddha statues was cultural change?
In the sense that the Turks turned the Haga Sophia into a Mosque, from the greatest cathedral in Christendom, yes(doing something to deface another religion's holy site), but I'll grant you vandalism on the statues, given the method, that it was a physical act in the physical domain, and lack of ability to recover from same.

That said, not sure how much of a holy site the statues were, but IIRC it was of that kind.

Let us note for the record where you went from a metaphor, applying vandalism ( a physical act) to culture and swapped over to a literal version of vandalism. Did you think I wouldn't notice? ;)

I ask for this reason: is their attempt to prohibit music and dancing likely to be permanent, or have permanent effect?

DR

[Nosi]

Could this kind of lunacy come to the United States?

[drkitten]

I ask for this reason: is their attempt to prohibit music and dancing likely to be permanent, or have permanent effect?


I would say "yes," although that's a function of how long the prohibition lasts. Once the last person who knows a particular song dies, the loss of the song is permanent.

We've seen/done this experiment with languages world-wide. Tell me about the oral tradition of fairy tales in Cornish? Oh, that's right,.... you can't. The last known monoglot speaker of Cornish died in the 17th century.

[Psi Baba]

Could this kind of lunacy come to the United States?
No one tells Clear Channel Communications what they can do. No one.

[Robin]

Let us note for the record where you went from a metaphor, applying vandalism ( a physical act) to culture and swapped over to a literal version of vandalism. Did you think I wouldn't notice? ;)
Why did you think I was using a metaphor. I meant it in exactly the same sense as the act of destroying the statues.
I ask for this reason: is their attempt to prohibit music and dancing likely to be permanent, or have permanent effect?
Yes, as drkitten points out. If the ban goes on for long enough so that the particular traditional dance or song cannot be passed on and it has not been recorded then that dance or song can never come back.

It happens all the time as drkitten pointed out.

I stick by what I said, it is an act of cultural vandalism for them to suppress the traditional village dances and songs.

[Darth Rotor]

Why did you think I was using a metaphor. I meant it in exactly the same sense as the act of destroying the statues.
Hmm.
Yes, as drkitten points out. If the ban goes on for long enough so that the particular traditional dance or song cannot be passed on and it has not been recorded then that dance or song can never come back.
OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).
It happens all the time as drkitten pointed out.
OK, I'll accept that as a possible outcome.
I stick by what I said, it is an act of cultural vandalism for them to suppress the traditional village dances and songs.
If successful over time, yes. Right now, they are shaking up the spray paint can, or prepping the bomb materials.

Check back in a few years and see if this attempt is a success. In the meantime, if there are ways to prevent this attempt at change ... then the vandals need not sack Rome this time around. :cool:

DR

[drkitten]

OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).

It's a lot harder to distinguish cultural "desecration" from mere cultural "change" than it is cultural "vandalism"; destruction is easier to demonstrate objectively in the second instance. And, of course, it's not clear that that this "dancing and music" are even instituting a change in Islamic Somali culture; my understanding (which may be wrong) is that this dancing and music are themselves cultural artifacts that may well predate the spread of Islam. It's not like they're suddenly objecting to Britney Spears (which I could understand), but to traditional activities that archeologists and anthropologists could probably trace back for thousands of years.

I don't think the line you outline above is what the Islamic Somalis are thinking. They're thinking more that they are "improving" traditional culture by imposing Islamic standards on it. In other words, they are deliberately attempting to change traditional culture, not prevent its "desecration," and it's quite consistent for modern Western liberals (who are generally supportive of traditional culture against intrusions of any sort) to decry the Islamic ban on music in the same way they'd object to a book burning by fundamentalist Christians.

[Darth Rotor]

It's a lot harder to distinguish cultural "desecration" from mere cultural "change" than it is cultural "vandalism"; destruction is easier to demonstrate objectively in the second instance. And, of course, it's not clear that that this "dancing and music" are even instituting a change in Islamic Somali culture; my understanding (which may be wrong) is that this dancing and music are themselves cultural artifacts that may well predate the spread of Islam.
Agreed, which is part of why I moderated my response after you and Robin made your points.
It's not like they're suddenly objecting to Britney Spears (which I could understand), but to traditional activities that archeologists and anthropologists could probably trace back for thousands of years.
Yes, indeed, though why any holds inherent value is a subjective assessment.
I don't think the line you outline above is what the Islamic Somalis are thinking. They're thinking more that they are "improving" traditional culture by imposing Islamic standards on it.
Fair enough. Progress ... sorta like that proposed by Western Liberals for the past three centuries. :)
In other words, they are deliberately attempting to change traditional culture, not prevent its "desecration," and it's quite consistent for modern Western liberals (who are generally supportive of traditional culture against intrusions of any sort) --
Which is why Western liberals support animal sacrifice, femal genital mutilation, and burning witches at the stake :D
-- to decry the Islamic ban on music in the same way they'd object to a book burning by fundamentalist Christians.
Sure. That's a reasonable parallel.

The only nitpick I retain, for value to include the humorous, is that the statues are blowed up, sir, while the dancers can still dance, and the cultural thing isn't lost ... yet. Whether the spray can is removed from the hands of the vandals remains to be seen.

DR

[TimCallahan]

History repeats itself. In Russia, ca. 1500, musical instruments were briefly banned.

There are a number of possible responses to this vie lot. One would be to buzz their territories with remote operate drones that would blare out Islamic music. Let these jerks shoot down planes playing music that glorifies Muhammad.

Another solution is to give military aid - short of sending our own troops in - to the Christian and pagan peoples of Darfur, so they can drive the Muslims out of their region. Then they could secede, and we could recognize the new country, while the Muslim north sinks into an abyss of hatred, ignorance and poverty.

Sorry. This is an error: I was conflating Somalia with Sudan.

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry. This is an error: I was conflating Somalia with Sudan.
Yes, but I'd love to see that last bit happen, as would many in Southern Sudan. :)

[TimCallahan]

Yes, but I'd love to see that last bit happen, as would many in Southern Sudan. :)

Agreed!

[Robin]

Hmm.

OK, so this is an attempt at what you call cultural vandalism. The statues aren't blown up, yet. Got it. Now, put on your devil's advocate hat, and put yourself in the shoes of a different cultural assumption: that the dancing and music is some sort of cultural desecration. Should they not respond to these these vandals who are spray painting graffitti all over their culture? (Not my line, but it's as valid an argument as yours, with a differing set of assumptions).
No, it is not the same. The continuance of singing and dancing will not lead to Islamic traditions becoming irrevocably lost.
If successful over time, yes. Right now, they are shaking up the spray paint can, or prepping the bomb materials.

Check back in a few years and see if this attempt is a success. In the meantime, if there are ways to prevent this attempt at change ... then the vandals need not sack Rome this time around. :cool:
That is all very well, as long as you don't take the attitude that after they sack Rome we could fix the situation by unsacking Rome.

[Darth Rotor]

That is all very well, as long as you don't take the attitude that after they sack Rome we could fix the situation by unsacking Rome.
Certainly not, one would perhaps rebuild (unlike Carthage), a different process than "unsacking" and one that may lead to a different Rome than was sacked.

DR

[Erigena]

Could this kind of lunacy come to the United States?
No. The movie Footlose already addressed this issue. ;)

[king catfish]

I see very little hope at all for that country.

I was there in 1993-1994, and believe me, it was obvious then that there is no hope at all for this country.

[Darth Rotor]

No. The movie Footlose already addressed this issue. ;)


:bigclap

[rwguinn]

<snip>

The only nitpick I retain, for value to include the humorous, is that the statues are blowed up, sir, while the dancers can still dance, and the cultural thing isn't lost ... yet. Whether the spray can is removed from the hands of the vandals remains to be seen.

DR
They can always use the Irish method...



At least, the Legend of the Irish Folk Dance tradition--where they were prohibited from dancing, and developed the "below the waist" stuff so that the British couldn't tell through the open top of the door that they were dancing...