Measles mortality reduction in Africa: 1996-2002

[BTox]

Sadly, measles results in more than 400,000 deaths annually in Africa, though a WHO effort is underway to reduce this terrible carnage by more than 50% by 2005. Excellent progress in several test countries have been reported:

A total of 12.7 million children were targeted in the three countries. National SIA coverage was estimated to be 95%--99% by survey method and 99%--104% by administrative method (Table 1). The number of reported measles cases and deaths has decreased 91% and 84%, respectively, compared with the annual averages for 1996--2001 (Table 1). The number of deaths averted was estimated by applying the observed percentage reduction in reported measles deaths in 2002, compared with the average annual number of deaths reported during 1996--2001, to the estimated number of measles deaths in 1998 (6) (Tables 1 and 2). WHO estimated the number of measles deaths in 1998 (before SIAs) by using the size of the surviving birth cohort, the reported vaccine coverage, vaccine efficacy, and a measles case-fatality ratio (CFR) of 6.0 (6).§ The estimated number of deaths averted in the three countries during 2002 was 26,365 (Table 2).

Source: mmwr measles mortality reduction (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5302a2.htm)

Hard to believe there are anti-vaccination morons like rouser around trying to inanely argue the detriments of life-saving vaccines. 26,000+ lives saved in 2002, with the potential to save more than 200,000 annually in a few years.

[Deetee]

Since he hasn't risen to the occasion (I wonder why not....??), I'll put on Rouser's hat (the little silver foil one in the shape of a cone ) and reply on his behalf.

1. How can these figures be accurate? - they are from Africa for God's sake! Don't you know they can't count in 3rd World countries!

2. Even if the figures were true, I think you will find the children died not from measles (which is a virtually harmless, often subclinical and self-limiting infection which has no complications whatsoever, has never killed anyone and actually boosts host immunity) but from something like the side effects of drugs used to treat the presumed "measles". We all know antibiotics can cause rashes (therefore by extension all antibiotics always cause rashes and all rashes are caused by antibiotics) and this could have been confused for a "measles" rash.


Its so obvious even a donut head could see what is really happening here! (i.e. a massive global conspiracy between big pharma, UN, WHO, MI5, Mossad, Stasi, Al Qaeda, Prince Charles and the BBC)

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by BTox [/i]


>>Hard to believe there are anti-vaccination morons like rouser around trying to inanely argue the detriments of life-saving vaccines. 26,000+ lives saved in 2002, with the potential to save more than 200,000 annually in a few years.

Aside from the dubious nature of statistical estimates, as well as their highly dubious sources, the central fallacy is the comparison of mortality rates in low-life 3rd world countries such as West Africa with the US.

-- Rouser

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Rouser2
... the central fallacy is the comparison of mortality rates in low-life 3rd world countries such as West Africa with the US.Please point out where any such comparison is made in the report BTox has highlighted.

(Well done, DeeTee, you were pretty close. Ever thought of applying for the million bucks?)

Rolfe.

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Rolfe

(Well done, DeeTee, you were pretty close. Ever thought of applying for the million bucks?)

Rolfe.


Yipeee!
Gimmee gimmee gimmeee!

(Sylvia Browne regularly asks me for tips)

[BTox]

Originally posted by Rouser2


Aside from the dubious nature of statistical estimates, as well as their highly dubious sources, the central fallacy is the comparison of mortality rates in low-life 3rd world countries such as West Africa with the US.

-- Rouser

Never ceases to amuse how you view FDA, CDC and WHO as "dubious sources", yet your sources (anti-vaccination and chiropractic websites, news articles written by laymen) are somehow credible!

Regarding the second part, there was no comparison anywhere overtly or implied. Simply pointing out the benefit in a huge number of lives saved due to one vaccine that you have tried to absurdly denigrate.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by BTox [/i]


>>there was no comparison anywhere overtly or implied.

Oh, of course there is. If you mention the name "Rouser" you impy it. I have only addressed the wisdom or lack thereof of measles vaccinations in the U.S.

-- Rouser

[Eos of the Eons]

I can hear a lot of quack quack quack coming from one of the posters here.

Oh well, he never has anything factual to report anyway. The number of reported measles cases and deaths has decreased 91% and 84%, respectively,


I don't know how anti-vaxxers can look at the over 25, 000 lives saved and say vaccines kill and maim.

It's sheer blasphemy and idiocy to suggest vaccines do anything but save lives and increase quality of life.

We can thank vaccines for the low mortality rate among our children. I'm glad to see other children are now able to enjoy their lives instead of dying so young.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons [/i]


>>I can hear a lot of quack quack quack coming from one of the posters here.

>>Oh well, he never has anything factual to report anyway.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The number of reported measles cases and deaths has decreased 91% and 84%, respectively,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Comment: Actually, in the US, it's more like virtually 100%. All the more reason to not inject children where the risk from the vaccine is greater than from the disease itself. Quack, quack yourself.

>>I don't know how anti-vaxxers can look at the over 25, 000 lives saved and say vaccines kill and maim.

>>It's sheer blasphemy and idiocy to suggest vaccines do anything but save lives and increase quality of life.

Of course, that is a bunch of crap.

-- Rouser

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Rouser2
All the more reason to not inject children where the risk from the vaccine is greater than from the disease itself.OK, let's try this one just once more.

Rouser, how do you propose to prevent measles infection from sweeping through the new generation of unvaccinated children when countries with endemic measles are only a holiday plane-ride away, and I think we agreed that strict quarantine of humans was probably not practical.

Rolfe.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Rolfe
OK, let's try this one just once more.

Rouser, how do you propose to prevent measles infection from sweeping through the new generation of unvaccinated children when countries with endemic measles are only a holiday plane-ride away, and I think we agreed that strict quarantine of humans was probably not practical.

Rolfe.

I do not make such a proposal. The slim chance that a handful of American children may come down with Measles from some foreign traveler along with the very slight risk of adverse events does not overcome the risks associated with continued widespread administration of the vaccine.

Rouser

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Rouser2
The slim chance that a handful of American children may come down with Measles from some foreign traveler along with the very slight risk of adverse events does not overcome the risks associated with continued widespread administration of the vaccine.Prove it.

The facts are against you. Once a virus like measles is reintroduced into a susceptible unvaccinated community, you're not looking at a handful, believe me.

The only solution would be to implement an emergency vaccination programme instantly to prevent spread. And this isn't a maybe, it's a dead cert. So it is sensible to continue routine preventative vaccination until such time as measles is eradicated world-wide.

Which it just might be if irrational anti-vaccine scare-mongers don't interfere with the vaccination campaigns.

Rolfe.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Rouser2


I do not make such a proposal. The slim chance that a handful of American children may come down with Measles from some foreign traveler along with the very slight risk of adverse events does not overcome the risks associated with continued widespread administration of the vaccine.

Rouser

Poor rouser. Still doesn't understand the simple concept that the United States is not surrounded by an impermeable bubble and that all that visit or immigrate are not sterilized before entry. The slim chance? Are you really that stupid? There was an outbreak of measle a little more than 1 year ago in Alabama, initiated from an infant from the Philippines. What do you think would have happened if all children in the U.S. were not vaccinated against measles? When measle is eradicated from the planet (thanks to vaccinations) is when we can stop vaccinating against it.

Local transmission of measles is rare in the United States. Since 1997, the majority of measles outbreaks have been caused by imported* cases (1). During October 19--November 15, 2002, an outbreak of 13 confirmed† cases of measles occurred, with exposure in Alabama; 11 cases were among day care attendees who had not yet been vaccinated for measles. This was the largest outbreak of measles in the United States since 1999 (2). In response to this outbreak, the Alabama Department of Public Health (ADPH) and CDC conducted an epidemiologic investigation that determined the outbreak was initiated by an imported case in an infant aged 9 months who had returned recently from the Philippines. Health-care providers should continue to include measles in differential diagnoses for febrile rash illnesses in infants, particularly those with recent travel to areas where measles is endemic.

Source: mmwr measles outbreak nov 2002 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5302a3.htm)

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by BTox [/i]

>> There was an outbreak of measle a little more than 1 year ago in Alabama, initiated from an infant from the Philippines. What do you think would have happened if all children in the U.S. were not vaccinated against measles


"During October 19--November 15, 2002, an outbreak of 13 confirmed† cases of measles occurred, with exposure in Alabama; 11 cases were among day care attendees who had not yet been vaccinated for measles. This was the largest outbreak of measles in the United States since 1999 "


Thus, 13 cases makes the largest outbreak since 1999 with apparently no adverse events associated. You and your pro-vaccine cohorts seem to draw attention only to the usually non-eventful disease, but cast a blind eye to the possible adverse events of the vaccine. What should be of even more concern in the above story is highly contagious environment these infants were placed in. The spread of measles was more a consequence those infants being placed in a daycare facility than anthing else. If you really want to crusade against young childhood diseases, you should begin by crusading against the use of daycare centers where "modern" work-a-day mothers routinely dump their kids -- an environment well known to be a highly contagious breeding ground for all manner of diseases. It's time to stop injecting our children with foreign substances and start injecting parents with a sense of some personal responsiblity and common sense.

-- Rouser

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Rolfe [/i]

>>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rouser2
The slim chance that a handful of American children may come down with Measles from some foreign traveler along with the very slight risk of adverse events does not overcome the risks associated with continued widespread administration of the vaccine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prove it.


"Adverse Reactions as reported by drug manufacture, Merck"


ADVERSE REACTIONS (MMR Vaccine)
"The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:

Body as a Whole
Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope, headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability. "

Cardiovascular System
Vasculitis."

Digestive System
Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea.

Endocrine System
Diabetes mellitus.

Hemic and Lymphatic System
Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS , Thrombocytopenia ); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy; leukocytosis.

Immune System
Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history.

Musculoskeletal System
Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.
Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of natural rubella and vary in frequency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in adult females and least in prepubertal children. This type of involvement as well as myalgia and paresthesia, have also been reported following administration of MERUVAX II.
Chronic arthritis has been associated with natural rubella infection and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic joint symptoms.
Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%), and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities.

Nervous System
Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see


Death from various, and in some cases unknown, causes has been reported rarely following vaccination with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines; "

http://www.drugs.com/xq/cfm/pageid_0/htm_52402160.htm/tgid_/bn_MEASLES%2C%20MUMPS%20%26%20RUBELLA%20VIRUS%20VA CCINE%2C%20LIVE/type_pdr/qx/index.htm

"The Drugs.com drug-information database is powered by three independent leading medical-information suppliers: Physicians' Desk Reference, Cerner Multum and Thomson Micromedex. Individual drug (or drug-class) information content compiled by these sources is delivered complete and unaltered by Drugs.com. "

Link with bowel disease fuels controversy over vaccine
Hilary Bower, London
"Doctors at the Royal Free Hospital in London believe they have uncovered a new bowel disease in children that may be linked to autism and triggered by the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR). The claim follows controversial work from the same team suggesting a causal link between measles vaccination and inflammatory bowel disease. "

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/316/7133/723/c

"Measles virus may link a new form of inflammatory bowel disease and developmental disorder, suggests a study in Molecular Pathology, to be published in the spring. The authors conclude that the virus may act as an immunological trigger. It was found in the guts of 75 children out of 91 with the variant form of bowel disease, but in only five out of 70 healthy children. More boys than girls were affected."

-- Journal of Clinical Pathology
http://jcp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/55/1/DC1


"Allergic reactions have been reported after MMR vaccine, ranging from mild (urticaria or wheal and flare at the injection site, generalized rash, and pruritis) to severe anaphylactic reactions. Severe allergic reactions are estimated to occur less than once per million doses. Clinically apparent low platelet counts have been reported at a rate of <1 case per 30,000 doses. Central nervous system conditions, including aseptic meningitis, encephalitis, and encephalopathy, have been reported after MMR receipt, but are very uncommon (<1 one case per million doses)."

http://www.cdc.gov/travel/diseases/measles.htm


The above facts weighed against this fact:

"as of August 1999, the Centers for Disease Control has declared that measles originating in the United States has been completely eliminated"

http://www.drgreene.com/21_705.html

Risk versus benefit ratio, weighed in the balance? No contest.

-- Rouser

[Rolfe]

Lots of words, not much thought.

The US can only remain free of measles so long as vaccination is continued. Rouser, you vastly underestimate the infectivity of that virus, and the consequences of its inevitable (indeed constant) reintroduction into the country by foreign travel.measles originating in the United States has been completely eliminatedNevertheless, measles is being constantly reintroduced from abroad. Now. If not every day, certainly every week. The reason it doesn't go anywhere is that the virus hasn't much of a chance of finding enough non-immune individuals to spread in the population.

If the most susceptible sector of the population, the children, were not vaccinated, it would spread like wildfire.

You don't have the choice between the spectrum of trouble attributable to the vaccine (whatever this may actually be), versus nothing. So long as that virus is out there at all, and you won't seal your borders, you have the choice between the spectrum of trouble caused by the vaccine and the far worse spectrum of trouble caused by the wild virus. Fortunately the people responsible for public health in your country know this perfectly well.

In the UK, wherever the percentage of vaccinated individuals falls below a safe level, we see outbreaks of clinical measles. Several children have already died. This is what happens, as can be observed, when vaccination policy gets lax. It doesn't really matter very much whether the virus was already latent in the population, or whether it came in from abroad, the latter is inevitable and you can't avoid it. You can only protect - by vaccinating.

If you want to know what happens when a population stops vaccinating against a disease which it is clear of but which is still rampant in other countries, consider Britain in 2001. Look up "foot-and-mouth disease".

The country was clear. The vaccine is problematic, for various reasons. It is possible to implement a strict quarantine on farm animals. That was the situation. Result, a completely suseptible population. So when the quarantine broke down, the infection spread across a large part of the country and caused all sorts of mayhem.

I'm not going to discuss FMD strategy here. If this were to happen with measles virus in the context of a measles-free country with a lot of susceptible people, there would be only one strategy possible. Emergency vaccination of the entire population.

Actually, though, measles is so common and human travel so all-pervasive, that this doomsday scenarion wouldn't happen. You'd never get that far. As the cohort of unvaccinated children grew, there would be more and more localised outbreaks, each maybe including a death or two, and the inevitability of returning to routine vaccination would be pretty self-evident.

It's already self-evident to anyone with a brain in their heads. That's why, despite the statement you quoted, nobody in the public health field is even considering discontinuing the vaccine.

Rolfe.

[Eos of the Eons]

No contest my @ss. Again, the proof, again

Measles:
Prior to the introduction of vaccine, 400,000 reported cases per year. In 1989-91 epidemic: 55,622 cases due to large number of unimmunized children, 45% less than 5 years old; 20% hospitalized, 123 deaths.


Measles vaccine:
Thrombocytopenia (bleeding tendency from temporary decrease in blood platelets): about 1 in 30,000


TEMPORARY DECREASE

Lets see123 deaths vs temporary decrease of platelets that is not in the least bit fatal

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/compare.htm

Yes, Rouser, hype up Possible reactions that don't happen over deaths by measles.

Your creepy claims are ridiculous.

[Eos of the Eons]

Geez Rouser, I checked your links where you quote the study findings by Wakefield and others.

I note you didn't include the parts of the article where your quotes are debunked


The lead researcher, Dr Andrew Wakefield, reader in experimental gastroenterology, ...
Several recent studies have failed to replicate the team's link between the measles virus and inflammatory bowel disease, and government and other experts have consistently maintained that there is not sufficient evidence to change vaccination policy. The deputy chief medical officer, Jeremy Metters, said: "Our advice to parents is to continue to vaccinate your children, because there is no evidence that the MMR vaccine carries the risk suggested. And the risk of not using this vaccine far outweighs any possible side effects."


This Wakefield is a proven moron. Quoting him only weakens your ridiculous arguments.

Stop quoting out of context and get a life.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Rouser2
Originally posted by BTox [/i]
What should be of even more concern in the above story is highly contagious environment these infants were placed in. The spread of measles was more a consequence those infants being placed in a daycare facility than anthing else. If you really want to crusade against young childhood diseases, you should begin by crusading against the use of daycare centers where "modern" work-a-day mothers routinely dump their kids -- an environment well known to be a highly contagious breeding ground for all manner of diseases. It's time to stop injecting our children with foreign substances and start injecting parents with a sense of some personal responsiblity and common sense.

-- Rouser As a former daycare owner/operator, I must protest. Licensed daycares are routinely inspected, and because of health regulations, must meet standards of hygiene. If you turn back the clock and keep the mothers at home (gee, why aren't the fathers dumping the kids there too?), the kids will not be protected from exposure--to the contrary, when they are dumped with relatives or neighbors (by far the biggest alternative to licensed daycares) they have every bit as much exposure with no guarantees of hygienic care. (And don't try to tell me that relatives are always going to care more about kids than daycare workers--that dog won't hunt.) If you are looking for a scapegoat to blame for a measles outbreak, this is not it. Look to yourself, and others like you, who insist on maintaining a vulnerability within the population. As a parent and daycare provider, and thus as one who cares deeply about children, I find your stance barbaric.

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Geez Rouser, I checked your links where you quote the study findings by Wakefield and others.

I note you didn't include the parts of the article where your quotes are debunked



This Wakefield is a proven moron. Quoting him only weakens your ridiculous arguments.

Stop quoting out of context and get a life.

In just about any mainstream journal of Modern Medicine, whenever you find a factual study that threatens the status quo, you will nearly always find an editorial disclaimer. But the facts are facts; the disclaimer is editorial.

-- Rouser

[Eos of the Eons]

It was not a disclaimer liar. It was what the article was on-how wakefield doesn't have a foot to stand on because he was oh so wrong, and his study was theory, not findings, when it came to theory on vaccines. The finding were wakefield was wrong.

That in everything you quoted. None of it was a disclaimer.

Nice try, liar.

[Eos of the Eons]

Ha! With vaccines going to court again...I'll get the link...

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/020104/new_autson001.shtml

Up to 1 in 250 have autism. 1 in a hundred have schizophrenia. Why don't they blame schizophrenia on vaccines?

How come 2 month olds (when vaccines start) didn't show any sign of 'damage' when the thimersol was being used? The only time they claim damages started is when autism shows up anyway. There is no higher rate for autism among vaccinated kids compared to unvaccinated kids.

Mercury poison does not mimic autism as far as I know. More boys than girls get autism. Shouldn't it be 50/50 if it was vaccines?

There is more mercury in a can of tuna. We all should have autism due to mercury poinson.

More people are diagnosed with autism because they included more symptoms under the umbrella than they used to.

These people are wasting their time. I only hope this suit fails miserably and people shut up about vaccines already.

__________________________________________________ __

I'm finding stuff on Yurko that has me laughing. Yurko is trying to blame vaccines for causing his child to die of shaken baby syndrome. He has all the anti-vaxxers backing him up.


- money needs to be raised to pay for Yurko's court appearances and appeals, and also PR people to pay (he was using Michael Horwin who used to lie for Burzynski) and, expenses for all the expert witnesses.

- the latest story is that the child whom Alan Yurko murdered actually died of scurvy

(How do you blame vaccines for scurvy?)

More on Burzynksi:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/burzynski1.html

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/burzynski.htm and

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/cancercurers.htm

So, they are claiming victories of sorts...





Orlando, FL, USA
January 2004

Dear Yurko Project supporter,

Great news! The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) http://www.aapsonline.org with a membership of several thousand private doctors, has has stepped up to the plate in the Yurko case.

A 16 January 2004 letter to Alan from his attorney indicates that some additional legal wrangling by the State Attorney must still be addressed before the date can be arranged. So apparently things are a bit more up in the air than thought. Such is life in the justice system. However, the support of AAPS strongly reinforces positive results. We will keep you posted.

Meanwhile, this "delay" gives us more time to raise needed funds, and all YP supporters are urged to continue the fund-raising effort. If you have donated, know that you are appreciated beyond words. Please consider, if you haven't, sending a note to folks in your e-address book, with a concise review of the situation and a request for help. Below is a "suggested" note.

Donations can be made via PayPal at
www.freeyurko.bizland.com/index.html#donate

Checks, made out to The Yurko Project, can be sent to:
The Yurko Project
PO Box 585965
Orlando, FL. 32858-5965

We also have the "Yard Sale" Online, where Items are donated as optional incentives for people making cash donations. Check it out if you haven't:
www.ayurkoproject.net


Grateful,
Alan Peter, YP Webmaster



The AAPS is questionable to say the least, and the email I got does not mention what kind of support they have "stepped up to the plate" with.

If it is Michael Horwin, then they really have me rolling around the floor laughing.

Nonetheless, the claim will get anti-vaxxers to send the murderer money.

[Yahweh]

Eos, your delightful cynicism always puts a smile on my face. You are the bestest! :)

And Rolfe, I find your posts well written and informative. You are also the bestest! :)


Rouser, I laugh in your general direction. :big:

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Eos, your delightful cynicism always puts a smile on my face. You are the bestest! :)

And Rolfe, I find your posts well written and informative. You are also the bestest! :)


:D You know, you are only encouraging us :D


Thank you!

[BTox]

Originally posted by Rouser2

Thus, 13 cases makes the largest outbreak since 1999 with apparently no adverse events associated.

No adverse effects? Are you kidding - three of the 11 infants were ill enough to require hospitalization. Measles kills, you nitwit.


Originally posted by Rouser2
You and your pro-vaccine cohorts seem to draw attention only to the usually non-eventful disease, but cast a blind eye to the possible adverse events of the vaccine.

No, we correctly point out the much higher risk of serious illness and death associated with the disease in relation to the possible adverse effects of the vaccine.


Originally posted by Rouser2
What should be of even more concern in the above story is highly contagious environment these infants were placed in. The spread of measles was more a consequence those infants being placed in a daycare facility than anthing else. If you really want to crusade against young childhood diseases, you should begin by crusading against the use of daycare centers where "modern" work-a-day mothers routinely dump their kids -- an environment well known to be a highly contagious breeding ground for all manner of diseases. It's time to stop injecting our children with foreign substances and start injecting parents with a sense of some personal responsiblity and common sense.

-- Rouser

This is the modern world, as we have been trying to get through your thick skull. This country, and its children, do not live in hermetically-sealed bubbles. All the more reason to ensure fiull vaccination until the disease is eradicated from the planet - and not before.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Eos, your delightful cynicism always puts a smile on my face. You are the bestest! :)

And Rolfe, I find your posts well written and informative. You are also the bestest! :)


Rouser, I laugh in your general direction. :big: :th:

Rolfe.