The value of forgiveness

[Oystein]

I am throwing an idea out here, and will be happy to see some brainstorm on it, be it philosophical, anecdotal, religious or psychological in nature:


How important and attractive is forgiveness?
To the perpetrator, his victim, or society?
What kind of boost do the two big monotheisms get out of stressing forgivness over wrath?
Did you ever feel you needed to be forgiven?



I will just relate a personal anecdote that motivates my postin this thread, as it currently bears heavy on my heart:

Around New Years, I was kinda depressed (winter depression...), and as I am single, also in certain needs, and kinda tired of playing nice and honest and reaping nice rejects or ignores. So I opened a fake account on some slightly naughty "vote my picture" community, chatted up some pretty girls, and I am sure I would have given up that silly endeavour had I not met Joana the very same day - and won her heart.
Sooo I got the fun I was seeking for a couple of days, and by that time I liked Joana so much, and she was so enthusiastic, that I did not dare telling her I was fake.
So I played on, piling lie upon invention upon excuse, we exchanged phone numbers (now she knew my voice and mobile number), and ... well I needed an excuse why I could not visit her soon - so I pretended I lived halfway across the country (when in fact I was only an hour away).
As bad luck had it: That is where she was travelling to celebrate her birthday just 10 days or so later. Sooo she expected to meet me there...
Sooo I pretended I had suffered from a fall that rendered me unconsciousss bla bla bla

Ok once you start lying, the game gets tougher by the day and quite uncomfortable.
I badly ruined her birthday.

The whole thing continued for a whopping 3 months, till I finally mustered the nerve to come clean.

Needless to say, she is shattered.


And I feel guilt like I never felt before
And I feel the need to be forgiven, for I have no excuse.
Haven't received it yet.
:(
(Oh and by the way: Now that I lost her, I realize how much I am in love with her, too. Silly, eh?)

[Lolly]

Haven't received it yet.
I'm not sure that you'll get it in those circumstances. If a stranger hurts you it is easier just to cut them off. Forgiveness is more likely where there is an existing relationship that the parties want to continue.

[Careyp74]

What are you defining as forgiveness? Is it acceptance of what you have done, and moving on? Is it the other person trying to convince you that they weren't hurt by what you did?

What would you consider forgiveness to be in your scenario?

[sgtbaker]

Forgive yourself. You can't undo what you did but learn from it what you can.

[Oystein]

I'm not sure that you'll get it in those circumstances. If a stranger hurts you it is easier just to cut them off. Forgiveness is more likely where there is an existing relationship that the parties want to continue.

Thanks for the consideration - but I don't want this thread to be about me and my foolishness.
I just wanted to present a case where I, personally, experience the need for forgiveness.

[Oystein]

What are you defining as forgiveness? Is it acceptance of what you have done, and moving on? Is it the other person trying to convince you that they weren't hurt by what you did?

What would you consider forgiveness to be in your scenario?

Good question.

I think it would be the honest declaration by the injured party that the misdeed will not be eternally held against the perpetrator. A willingness to move on, to offer a second chance. The realization that we all do wrong sometimes out of personal weakness, and better make sure that those wrongdoings do not accumulate as enmity between us.
Just a brainstorm.

Would love to hear better wordings and different propositions.
I mean, the term "forgiveness" is well known to all of us, isn't it?

[Oystein]

Forgive yourself. You can't undo what you did but learn from it what you can.

I would not call that "forgiveness".
That would be closer to "repentance", wouldn't it?

[Lolly]

but I don't want this thread to be about me and my foolishness..Fair enough.

* How important and attractive is forgiveness?
* To the perpetrator, his victim, or society?
* What kind of boost do the two big monotheisms get out of stressing forgivness over wrath?
* Did you ever feel you needed to be forgiven?

I think it varies depending on all of the circumstances - the relationship of the parties, what was done, when it was done, how it was done, etc.

If you are wallowing in rage at something that was done to you, forgiveness is important so you can stop wasting time and energy on it. You have a choice whether to forgive and let it go.

If you are wallowing in guilt over something you have done, forgiveness is important so that you can feel less guilt. You don't get a choice over whether you are forgiven or not, it's up to the party you've hurt.

As for society, there are many criminal offences that arise out of neighbourhood or family disputes. Forgiveness would make a lot of grief and drama from these types of feuds disappear.

Forgiveness in the Catholic Church is designed to make you feel better, to get it off your shoulders.

I went to a Catholic School. I feel the need to be forgiven if I squeeze the toothpaste the wrong way. :D I begged forgiveness (as in said "sorry" to someone) just this morning so yes, I've felt I've needed to be forgiven.

[sgtbaker]

I would not call that "forgiveness".
That would be closer to "repentance", wouldn't it?

Call it what you want, but repentance started with your confession. You have to move on and accept that she is not likely to forgive you. Everything about you, to her, is now a complete fabrication. You can sit around and beat yourself up about it or you can say you made a serious of really bad decisions and forgive yourself that. If you did something like that again, you were not sorry for your actions, you were sorry for the result of your actions. So to be truly sorry, never to that to someone again.

[sgtbaker]

[LIST]
How important and attractive is forgiveness?


It all depends on your perspective on forgiveness. Do you mean forgive and be given another chance? In such a case, it depends on the offense and remorse of the offender. If you mean forgive as in simply letting go of the anmosity; that's more for the benefit of the offended. Staying angry is a lot of baggage to carry around.

To the perpetrator, his victim, or society?

To the perp, I suspect forgiveness is very important. However much they deserve it is relative. The victim, IMHO very much needs to forgive in the sense of letting go of the anger. In my case I try to make sense of the action and understand where the offender went wrong and why. Society can go fly a kite. At least in America, society feels quite entitled to input everywhere they have an opinion, regardless of how uninformed they are.

What kind of boost do the two big monotheisms get out of stressing forgivness over wrath?

varies throughout factions.

* Did you ever feel you needed to be forgiven?

Don't we all?

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I think forgiveness is important, that it "soothes the soul" so to speak, but I also think you need to be careful with your forgiveness. I think it's good to forgive someone..but that doesn't necessarily mean restoring your relationship with that person. Both my foster sister and a friend of mine who was adopted had been abused or neglected by their families. Their families then came to them once they were adults seeking to "restore" their relationship, but then almost immediately began asking for money, which in both cases they gave to their families. In both their cases, their biological families basically spent the next two years constantly shaking them down for cash. If requests for cash were denied (often because they simply didn't have it to give), their parents would become hostile and verbally abusive. Every now and then they'd finally have enough and cut them off, but then a couple months later the families would crawl back, begging for forgiveness, and they'd give it, and they'd start talking to them again...only to have the same thing happen all over again. I've seen my foster sister's heart broken so many times by her mother, and it just kills me. And my adopted friend's adopted parents were equally distressed to see her being taken advantage of in this way. But no matter what, my sister always goes back to her, always forgives her, even though nothing ever changes, even though her mother abused her in unspeakable ways as a child. My other friend at this point is no longer speaking to her biological family, and I think she's much better off for it.

Now I'm not saying my sister shouldn't forgive her mom and move on. But I am saying that that forgiveness should not include a personal relationship. I have had this happen to me in the past but to a far far lesser extent. I have a friend who seriously wronged me. And I was angry for a long time. But now I'm not. I honestly hope they're doing well, and I reached out to them and told them that. I am happier now that I have forgiven them, it is a weight lifted off of me. But that doesn't mean I want to ever see them again, either.

[Dave Rogers]

In a much more theoretical and evolutionary sense, it seems to me that forgiveness has as vital a role in the survival of a society as its converse. Retribution is part of self-defence, so it's important that there is some perceived threat of retribution; however, retribution is never perfectly balanced in the subjective opinion of both sides, so without some measure of forgiveness there will always be an outstanding grievance one way or the other, or frequently both. The result of a society without forgiveness is long-standing fueds that, in the long run, impoverish both sides; there's no need to suggest examples, they're around us everywhere. Forgiveness allows us to access more optimal game theory solutions, where, although the offender may not suffer exactly the same amount as the offendee, everyone's long-term benefit is served. So it's not only the victim and the perpetrator who benefit from forgiveness; society benefits as a whole.

It doesn't exactly help with your specific situation, but you did ask for brainstorming.

Dave

[Oystein]

Dave, thanks, that was exactly the kind of ideas I was hoping for!
Forgiveness as a matter of smoothing threats of retribution, or as short-cut to win-win-situations. Cool and enlightning! Thanks!

[Oystein]

...
If you are wallowing in rage at something that was done to you, forgiveness is important so you can stop wasting time and energy on it. You have a choice whether to forgive and let it go.

If you are wallowing in guilt over something you have done, forgiveness is important so that you can feel less guilt. You don't get a choice over whether you are forgiven or not, it's up to the party you've hurt.
...

This leads me to a thought I had the other day: This construct of guilt and forgiveness reverses the power balance: When some injustice is handed out, usually the perp abused a moment of having some power over his victim.
By subjecting himself to the need for forgiveness, power is given in return to the victim.

Which might conceivably be abused in turn... by either party...

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Dave, thanks, that was exactly the kind of ideas I was hoping for!
Forgiveness as a matter of smoothing threats of retribution, or as short-cut to win-win-situations. Cool and enlightning! Thanks!

Agree on Dave's post

[Careyp74]

Good question.

I think it would be the honest declaration by the injured party that the misdeed will not be eternally held against the perpetrator. A willingness to move on, to offer a second chance. The realization that we all do wrong sometimes out of personal weakness, and better make sure that those wrongdoings do not accumulate as enmity between us.
Just a brainstorm.

Would love to hear better wordings and different propositions.
I mean, the term "forgiveness" is well known to all of us, isn't it?

I sense a lot of selfishness in your definition and desire for forgiveness. It should just be about her not being hurt and effected by what you did. That should be your only concern.

[Radrook]

Forgiveness is also valuable to tyrants who use it to gain time for tactical or straategic advantage while the forgiver has has his guard down or for abusive individuals who wish to perpetuate abusive interpersonal relationships.

[Pup]

Forgiveness is also valuable to tyrants who use it to gain time for tactical or straategic advantage while the forgiver has has his guard down or for abusive individuals who wish to perpetuate abusive interpersonal relationships.

That's true. I've never really understood the concept of forgiveness the way most people use it. To me, it means totally forgetting the act, as if it never happened, and setting things back the way they were before.

There are some situations where that's a good thing for the victim, but in most cases, it primarily benefits the perpetrator. Yet people suggest that forgiveness is a good thing for the victim. Huh? They must be using the word to mean something I don't understand.

Obvious example: A guy babysits someone's daughter and molests her. He's caught, sent to jail, does his time, gets out, goes to the parents and says, "Do you forgive me?"

If they say "yes," then logically if he said "So can I babysit her again?" they'd have to agree. Why not? They've forgiven him, it's like it never happened, so they should have no more ill feelings toward him now than when they agreed before.

I'd say that's nuts.

There's no advantage to them forgiving him and every advantage to him being forgiven, so he can either have access to the daughter again if he hasn't changed or, if he has actually changed, so he can have all the benefits of friendship with the family. That's good for him, but there's little advantage to the family, since there are plenty of other more trustworthy babysitters and friends to choose from. The family would be taking all the risk and he'd be taking none.

I don't get it. There must be another definition of forgiveness that people mean.

[kittynh]

If that woman that you fooled with on the internet forgives you, it doesn't mean her pain will go away. And maybe if she forgives you she will think your guilt and pain will go away.

Look at your feeling bad about this as a GOOD thing. You know, people without any moral compass at all are very "happy". Look at all those wall street people that just screwed investors so they could have a bigger house in the Hamptons. They didn't feel bad until they were caught, and it was they felt bad they were caught... not that they had hurt people.

I had a friend that this whole internet thing happened to. She was newly divorced and very lonely and sad. She has since remarried and everything is great. But her friend got her onto a free dating sight. After 4 months when she was ready to meet her dream guy, she had tickets to fly to New York City and there were going to meet on the top of the EMpire State building... she got a phone call. From the parent of the teenage boy that had been stringing her along. He paniced when he heard she had bought the plane ticket and had a hotel reservation. He told mom and she called.

The boy was only 15 years old.

My friend was devestated. She had to go into expensive therapy. It took her about a year to get over both the divorce and this betrayal. She's forgiven the kid, he wrote her a long LETTER (no more email) about how he had to give up his computer for 6 months and he worked a job to pay back the money she had spent on a non refundable ticket to NY. He also said how this experience changed his life and how sorry he was.

I think if you write a letter, telling what you have learned and how you have changed from this experience it would help. That you aren't going to "get over it". If forgiveness means you feel better and it's all "back to normal" she isn't going to do it. If you will never forget, and be a better person in how you treat others... then in a way you don't need her forgiveness, you have forgiven yourself. The hurt of the memory and the lesson are a GOOD thing. You will treat people better and have more empathy and in the end, be much happier and attract people to you that are also good.

[Robo Sapien]

I think this thread would be more appropriate on Dr. Phil's message board.

[Oystein]

I sense a lot of selfishness in your definition and desire for forgiveness. It should just be about her not being hurt and effected by what you did. That should be your only concern.

Hmmm.

Well, selfishness is not a bad thing, or is it? You are of course right - I want to be forgiven, for it makes me feel better.

But - make that a big BUT - I am not saying I want it just like that, at no cost. Certainly I do not expect forgiveness without setting some things right first. However, I have hurt an effected her, and this cannot be undone. We will both remember it. So this concern you mention is bound to be futile.
I guess she needs to establish the trust that I will not hurt her again. To this end we'd have to work together.

[Oystein]

Forgiveness is also valuable to tyrants who use it to gain time for tactical or straategic advantage while the forgiver has has his guard down or for abusive individuals who wish to perpetuate abusive interpersonal relationships.

Ah good point!
A special kind of tyrants that I think is way to common is the abusive man.
Don't we all know examples of man abuses woman, cheats on her, whatever, and she keeps forgiving him because she thinks he will change if she forgives?
I guess it happens the other way around, too, but my personal impression is that women are more prone to this useless and self-destructive kind of forgiveness.

[Oystein]

That's true. I've never really understood the concept of forgiveness the way most people use it. To me, it means totally forgetting the act, as if it never happened, and setting things back the way they were before...

Hmm it doesn't mean that to me - you can't just decide to forget, it would be pretension. No good.

[Ron_Tomkins]

I guess it depends.

If a girl you met hurt your feelings because she used you to forget her boyfriend, but she sincerely apologizes for not controlling her emotions and shows she wants to remain friends, maybe it's worth forgiving.

If a guy recruits a bunch of people to hijack planes and crash them against the World Trade Center, killing thousands of innocent people and destroying the economy of a country, all because of some brainwashed religious BS, maybe it's not worth forgiving.

[Oystein]

If that woman that you fooled with on the internet forgives you, it doesn't mean her pain will go away. And maybe if she forgives you she will think your guilt and pain will go away.

Look at your feeling bad about this as a GOOD thing. You know, people without any moral compass at all are very "happy". Look at all those wall street people that just screwed investors so they could have a bigger house in the Hamptons. They didn't feel bad until they were caught, and it was they felt bad they were caught... not that they had hurt people.

I had a friend that this whole internet thing happened to. She was newly divorced and very lonely and sad. She has since remarried and everything is great. But her friend got her onto a free dating sight. After 4 months when she was ready to meet her dream guy, she had tickets to fly to New York City and there were going to meet on the top of the EMpire State building... she got a phone call. From the parent of the teenage boy that had been stringing her along. He paniced when he heard she had bought the plane ticket and had a hotel reservation. He told mom and she called.

The boy was only 15 years old.

My friend was devestated. She had to go into expensive therapy. It took her about a year to get over both the divorce and this betrayal. She's forgiven the kid, he wrote her a long LETTER (no more email) about how he had to give up his computer for 6 months and he worked a job to pay back the money she had spent on a non refundable ticket to NY. He also said how this experience changed his life and how sorry he was.

I think if you write a letter, telling what you have learned and how you have changed from this experience it would help. That you aren't going to "get over it". If forgiveness means you feel better and it's all "back to normal" she isn't going to do it. If you will never forget, and be a better person in how you treat others... then in a way you don't need her forgiveness, you have forgiven yourself. The hurt of the memory and the lesson are a GOOD thing. You will treat people better and have more empathy and in the end, be much happier and attract people to you that are also good.

Thanks for the advice, kitty, even though I did not present my example to receive advice on that particular episode. I think I learned my lesson, I will not forget, I am very sorry, I do offer any help, anything I can do to alleviate her pain, and we are talking.

I rather want to encourage folks to present examples, like yours, where forgiveness was a concern (and was wanted or not, granted or not, ...) to shed light on a topic that has interested me since long before my foolish prank.

So thanks for the story :)

[Oystein]

I guess it depends.

If a girl you met hurt your feelings because she used you to forget her boyfriend, but she sincerely apologizes for not controlling her emotions and shows she wants to remain friends, maybe it's worth forgiving.

If a guy recruits a bunch of people to hijack planes and crash them against the World Trade Center, killing thousands of innocent people and destroying the economy of a country, all because of some brainwashed religious BS, maybe it's not worth forgiving.

This reminds me ... how could I have forgotten to mention this?


Last september I went to a theatre play about the life of Nelson Mandela. It started with a scene at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_%28South_Afric a%29) (TRC), headed by archbishop Desmond Tutu. Wikipedia writes:

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) was a court-like restorative justice[1] body assembled in South Africa after the abolition of apartheid. Witnesses who were identified as victims of gross human rights violations were invited to give statements about their experiences, and some were selected for public hearings. Perpetrators of violence could also give testimony and request amnesty from both civil and criminal prosecution.

The TRC, the first of the nineteen held internationally to stage public hearings, was seen by many as a crucial component of the transition to full and free democracy in South Africa. Despite some flaws, it is generally (although not universally) thought to have been successful.

One key figure in the play, and a notorious figure in South Africa's public life, was Eugene de Kock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_De_Kock), who "is a former colonel of the South African Police force during Apartheid in South Africa. Dubbed "Prime Evil" by the media, he was the commander of C1 unit (Vlakplaas) of the South African Police counter insurgency group, well known for killing dozens of anti-apartheid activists" (Wikipedia).

He was portrayed in the play, and in the book A Human Being Died That Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Human_Being_Died_That_Night) by psychologist Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela, which I subsequently bought, as a man who committed crimes against humanity thinking he was doing it for a greater good, even though they troubled his conscience.

The entire TRC was set up on the idea that a society can't heal without some degree of reconciliation between perpetrators and victims, to break circles of violence and of injustice.

It is by no means clear that this worked, or is equally good for all.

[JJM 777]

How important and attractive is forgiveness?
To the perpetrator, his victim, or society?


Forgiving the evil that others have done to you, as unnatural and injust as it may sound, is in some cases crucial for a person's mental health. There are many chronically depressed people locked up in asylums. The psychiatrists try to help the person out of his sadness and unforgiving bitterness, but it is not always successful.

There is a "right vs. wrong" side in the issue, but in some psychiatric cases the issue is a matter of normal life vs. unability to continue normal life.

[Pup]

Assuming we really are discussing forgiveness in general, and not the OP's specific situation...

Forgiving the evil that others have done to you, as unnatural and injust as it may sound, is in some cases crucial for a person's mental health. There are many chronically depressed people locked up in asylums. The psychiatrists try to help the person out of his sadness and unforgiving bitterness, but it is not always successful.

There is a "right vs. wrong" side in the issue, but in some psychiatric cases the issue is a matter of normal life vs. unability to continue normal life.'

I totally disagree. Actually, I'd say it's the other way around. Forgiving the evil that others have done to you can be a sign of poor mental health and lead to a tragic life. Or are you suggesting that abused spouses should keep forgiving their abusers and letting them come back home, and parents should encourage children to forgive child molesters and go play with them again?

But again, maybe I have no clue what people talk about when they say "forgive."

There's a big difference, in my mind, between accepting that someone is being punished enough but should not be forgiven, and thinking someone should be punished more but you have no power to do it.

The latter is what leads to bitterness or depression through a sense of helplessness. The former, though, is a healthy reaction and actually empowering.

Take the example of an abused spouse. I'd suggest the following:

Good: He was a jerk, so I don't feel any guilt about keeping him out of my life from now on.

Bad: He was a jerk, but I need to forgive him and I guess that means I need to let him back in my life, since if I shut him out, that means I haven't truly forgiven him.

Equally bad: He was a jerk and deserves more punishment, so I'll spend every waking minute trying to figure how to get back at him.

Also, just to clarify:

Originally Posted by Pup http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5888293#post5888293) That's true. I've never really understood the concept of forgiveness the way most people use it. To me, it means totally forgetting the act, as if it never happened, and setting things back the way they were before...


Hmm it doesn't mean that to me - you can't just decide to forget, it would be pretension. No good.


I don't mean literally to forget, to have no memory of. I mean pretend to forget; to act as if one has forgotten.

Yes, it would be pretension. But I don't know any other way to deliberately forgive a person.

If someone truly and naturally forgets about a wrong that's been done to them, we usually don't call that forgiveness. I'm sure somebody cut me off in traffic or bumped into me or something in town yesterday, but I literally don't remember. If someone came up to me and said, "Do you forgive me for bumping into you yesterday?" I wouldn't say, "Yes I do," I'd say, "Huh? Did you?"

So forgiveness seems to imply a deliberate act. Almost by definition, it's pretending to think in a way different than we would naturally.

[Radrook]

Hitler interpreted forgiveness of his repeated lies as weakness.

[JJM 777]

Forgiving the evil that others have done to you can be a sign of poor mental health and lead to a tragic life. Or are you suggesting that abused spouses should keep forgiving their abusers and letting them come back home
Without forgiveness, no love relationship in the world would last long. The fact that there are so many successful marriages is evidence of a lot of forgiveness in the world.

What I had in mind was cases where a person has suffered something mentally devastating like rape or loss of sight or loss of a leg etc. because of a violent assault. There are big differences in how individuals mentally recover from such situations, some are able to leave the evil incident behind, again finding a positive attitude to take the best of what life still has to offer. Some others in exactly the same circumstances sink into lifelong bitterness and depression, endlessly repeating to themselves the cruelty and injustice of what happened to them. Unable to forgive to life its cruelty.

[Oystein]

@ Pup: I think you are right: You don't know what it means to forgive. IMO, it's not at all equal to (pretend to) forget.
Think of it like this: If a wrongdoing and the memory thereof is the acid that makes a juice too sour, then your idea would be to take out the acid, which may be difficult or impossible to do. My idea is to add some sugar to make up for it.

Forgiveness is something that is added to, not subtracted from, the history of a relation to restore a balance of trust and power.

I guess the examples of habitual abuse and Hitler show that not everyone can or should forgive everything; but is it valid in this case to consider extremes and draw conclusions for everyday-situations?



@ Radrook: Thread Godwined on page 1 - why?

[Oystein]

Without forgiveness, no love relationship in the world would last long. The fact that there are so many successful marriages is evidence of a lot of forgiveness in the world.

I think it is important to note that marriage is a prime example where two people have a relationship that enriches their lives, and usually lots of incentive to hold on to and improve on that relationship when it gets strained. This is often not the case with victims of crimes - they may not know the perps, or may not have had a positive relationship with them before the incident, hence nothing poitive to restore.

What I had in mind was cases where a person has suffered something mentally devastating like rape or loss of sight or loss of a leg etc. because of a violent assault. There are big differences in how individuals mentally recover from such situations, some are able to leave the evil incident behind, again finding a positive attitude to take the best of what life still has to offer. Some others in exactly the same circumstances sink into lifelong bitterness and depression, endlessly repeating to themselves the cruelty and injustice of what happened to them. Unable to forgive to life its cruelty.

There may be other methods of separating yourself from that injustice and finding closure. Forgiveness is one candidate, but revenge may be another, or other methods of empowering yourself.

[Pup]

Without forgiveness, no love relationship in the world would last long. The fact that there are so many successful marriages is evidence of a lot of forgiveness in the world.

Yes, and that's what I expect forgiveness to mean: a total re-set, as if it never happened. For minor things, where there's a belief that the person will change and minimal risk if the person doesn't change, I think that's great. It benefits both parties--a potential reward of love and happiness, with no more risk than needing to deal again with dishes left in the sink or the toilet seat left up again. And I'm speaking as someone who's been married for 19 years in the first and only marriage for both of us.

What I had in mind was cases where a person has suffered something mentally devastating like rape or loss of sight or loss of a leg etc. because of a violent assault. There are big differences in how individuals mentally recover from such situations, some are able to leave the evil incident behind, again finding a positive attitude to take the best of what life still has to offer. Some others in exactly the same circumstances sink into lifelong bitterness and depression, endlessly repeating to themselves the cruelty and injustice of what happened to them. Unable to forgive to life its cruelty.

Yes, but a positive attitude or bitterness aren't necessarily related to forgiving the perpetrator. Those are exactly the cases where I don't see the advantage of pressuring the victim to forgive the perpetrator, since it gives every advantage to the perpetrator and little to the victim.

If the victim has to "re-set" his relationship with the perpetrator, there's a chance the harm will reoccur, either to the victim or someone else. If the perpetrator has changed, there's no advantage to push the victim into taking the risk.

If it's a matter of forgiving "life," well, that opens up another kettle of fish.

If a person believes a god or some sentient entity controls their life and also believes the god/entity has treated them poorly but they mustn't deny or reject the power of that god/entity, then there's a problem. They're basically in the position of an abused spouse who can't get divorced due to fear or guilt. Not good, and an example of the harm caused by religions which teach that.

If a person believes that life happens partially due to cause and effect with a large bit of randomness thrown in, then there's no "life" to forgive; it's as irrelevant as needing to forgive the table-leg that made you stub your toe against it.

[Pup]

@ Pup: I think you are right: You don't know what it means to forgive. IMO, it's not at all equal to (pretend to) forget.


On the contrary, I think my definition is pretty similar to yours above:

I think it would be the honest declaration by the injured party that the misdeed will not be eternally held against the perpetrator. A willingness to move on, to offer a second chance. The realization that we all do wrong sometimes out of personal weakness, and better make sure that those wrongdoings do not accumulate as enmity between us.


That's how I'd define pretending to forget--it's as if it never happened. I don't mean literally play-acting as if one has amnesia, or lying if asked directly what happened. I mean going on about one's life, in general, as if it never happened, like the common expression forgive and forget.

The key is "honest declaration."

If the victim honestly feels that way, great. For most minor things, most people will feel that way.

However, if the victim doesn't honestly feel that way, then society and/or the perpetrator are just adding more problems by pressuring the victim to delcare forgiveness anyway. In that case, it's more for the benefit of society or the perpetrator than the victim.

[Lithrael]

Funny that I hadn't ever really thought about it, but I think to me 'forgiveness' usually just means 'you know what I did and you can deal with that' where 'deal with' means anything between 'doesn't bother you anyway' to 'you don't want to actually kill me' depending on the deed done and the circumstances. Quite often for me getting forgiven really is just the 'sorry I bumped into you' 'oh, didn't realize you did' situation Pup is talking about.

I don't think it should be the faked erasure of the incident Pup interprets it as though, for me it's more like a reassurance that the other person simply isn't still mad about it, not that they're supposed to act like you never did it. If I'm forgiven for forgetting to change your oil, I don't expect you to trust me not to forget next time. I just expect you to not be mad about the time I forgot.

[plumjam]

At the OP,
a good rule is to never behave online in a way you never would in person. This is something I can say I've kept to, and it makes for a better experience, I believe.

That doesn't mean you can't post a photo that's a few years old, because who, in real life, walks around holding up alternative photos of dubious age right next to their face? ;)

[Pup]

I don't think it should be the faked erasure of the incident Pup interprets it as though, for me it's more like a reassurance that the other person simply isn't still mad about it, not that they're supposed to act like you never did it. If I'm forgiven for forgetting to change your oil, I don't expect you to trust me not to forget next time. I just expect you to not be mad about the time I forgot.

Hmm... that's a good borderline case.

I can think of a personal example from years ago. I was working at a newspaper and one week, forgot to leave space for an ad that I knew was coming. My supervisor brought in the ad and I had to scramble to make room. She wasn't really mad about it. It was just one of those things that caused a minor headache, like forgetting to change the oil. It was the first and only time I'd forgotten.

For several weeks after that, she'd remind me in a friendly way, "Are you leaving space for...?" She wasn't doing it to needle me; she just didn't want the same thing to happen again and it benefitted all of us for her to check.

And yet, considering that I'd never made the mistake before and hadn't made the mistake again when she checked, it got to be annoying after a while. She'd "forgiven me" almost instantly, because she wasn't mad at me, but she hadn't forgotten.

Finally I said, "Look, I know I made a mistake, but I only did it once, weeks ago. How long will it take for you to trust me again? What do I have to do to live this down?"

Immediately, she realized I'd already gained her trust and stopped reminding me.

Based on my definition, I wasn't completely forgiven until she stopped reminding me, started trusting me again, and things went back to the way they were before.

Based on others' definitions, I was forgiven immediately, since she was never mad at me. But I still suffered the consequences and had a (somewhat deserved) less-than-optimum relationship with her for several weeks.

So if she didn't finally "forgive" me, what did she do when she decided to trust me again? Does it have anything to do with forgiveness or is that something else unrelated?

To me, as long as the trust is lost, the forgiveness isn't complete. It might be as serious as leaving an abusive spouse (because you don't trust them to treat you right even though they promise it'll never happen again) or as minor as reminding someone to change the oil (because you don't trust them to remember otherwise, even though they swear they will).

[Trent Wray]

That's true. I've never really understood the concept of forgiveness the way most people use it. To me, it means totally forgetting the act, as if it never happened, and setting things back the way they were before. Yes yes yes. This.

If someone writes a mathematical equation on a blackboard that is wrong, like say: 1+1 = 5 ..... forgiving them for their mistake doesn't balance out that equation whatsoever. And pretending as though that kind of math is correct, only leads to complications on down the road, the consequences of which will begin to pile up, one after another. Any attempts to justify that miscalculation or to try and forget it but still live with it as part of history just doesn't work out. It becomes a tangled web that requires a great effort to maintain.

Forgiveness is the act of balancing that equation.

And it can only happen when you correct what is wrong. It's basically cut and dry. Go up to the blackboard and undo the mistake .... erase the 5 and put a 2, the way it "should be". Either that, or erase the equation all together and start over. But it cannot remain incorrect and still up on the board, representing false information.

Now, you're going to ask yourself, "how can I go back in time and undo a mistake that's already been done?" You can. Not physically. But emotionally and mentally you can. And you will need the participation of those involved as well ... when they are ready.

Ex: My first marriage ended horribly. It wasn't even a love story gone bad. It started off as *************** insanity turned downhill and this pissed on as it ran off the edge of the earth. My first wife and I did not speak a word to each other for nine years after our divorce. Throughout that time, my ex wife sought counseling and had a couple more failed marriages ... piling up pain upon pain. I did as well .... I took a wrong turn which lead to another enormous blunder in a relationship. Nine years later we finally spoke to each other. It took me that long to forgive her for what she did, and after speaking with her ... she forgave what I did as well. But it took nine years before we were ready to balance out each other's equations.

As a result, it was almost as if the last nine years for both of us were ERASED. And I mean, completely turned over. What was nine years of internal turmoil and baggage carrying and pain washed away and turned into nine years of learning experiences. Almost overnight this happened. We became friends with each other ... and what started out as a horrid beginning with a crippling middle, ended up a love story. What was beautiful, was that we became part of each other's love story .... and not because we ended back up together either. In fact, we encouraged each other to love our new found partners in life and help each other get back on a track we began to sway from again. In other words, we balanced an equation. Instead of trying to make something between us work, we saw (nine years later) what we did wrong, went back in time, erased the b.s. that was built upon the false idea ..... and corrected it. We realized we weren't compatible, but that we knew how to support each other now correctly, with a love that was more real and properly placed towards each other. 1+1=2 ....... when we had originally written 1+1=5. That is what caused all the crap for nine years to pile up.

But forgiveness involved going back in time within ourselves, changing our perspectives and our histories to reflect the truth of the events in the proper light. It was freeing and liberating and almost "magical". Anything short of that type of forgiveness was a scam we were trying to pull on ourselves.

Balance that equation or erase it to get and give forgiveness. But all in good time. Those parties involved have to want to participate and can't be forced to forgive.

[Oystein]

Wait wait wait, folks, I think your examples don't cut it because, well, they don't require "forgiveness". I think.

You describe people making simple mistakes: Forgetting to change oil, forgetting to leave space, erring in math.

Such acts are not in breach with any ethics! In the case of Pup's boss, her concern was not healing a relationship, it was just a matter of quality control.


The other day I made a clumsy move and inadvertantly smaked my hand hard on a friend's nose. That sure did hurt, and I felt awfully sorry for my clumsiness. But it is nothing that weighs on my soul or our relationship, for it was just clumsiness and bad luck. So by the time her pain had subsided, I had petted her tenderly, and we both had realized it was mere clumsiness, there was nothing left to be reconciled. **** happens. No worry about forgiveness. Even she brings this up in the future.

It would be a totally different game if I had hit her deliberately in a moment of anger or something like that.



I don't think anybody has entered the word "SIN" in this debate. In Christian terms (and I think, in Muslim terms as well), forgiving is something that's done upon "sins". Or, in atheist speak, a wilful act of violating moral standards.

[rorylee]

wanna win her back? she fell in love with the person who is a lie, so now let her fall in love with the truth. Write a letter, poem, anything that describes yourself down to the bone. Make it funny, deep, meaningful etc and hopefully it will hit the spot.

[Pup]

The other day I made a clumsy move and inadvertantly smaked my hand hard on a friend's nose. That sure did hurt, and I felt awfully sorry for my clumsiness. But it is nothing that weighs on my soul or our relationship, for it was just clumsiness and bad luck. So by the time her pain had subsided, I had petted her tenderly, and we both had realized it was mere clumsiness, there was nothing left to be reconciled. **** happens. No worry about forgiveness. Even she brings this up in the future.

It would be a totally different game if I had hit her deliberately in a moment of anger or something like that.

There are also cases where it's not deliberate, yet forgiveness and ethics still enter the picture.

The difference is recognized in law as well as ethics: If a driver hits a pedestrian, the driver can't just say, "It was an accident," and expect no consequences, even if it wasn't deliberate. He can still be tried and found guilty if he wasn't using "normal" caution (however society defines normal), because society expects drivers to watch out for others with a certain degree of care.

Obviously, in most cases like your example, minor accidents really are complete accidents and forgiveness is either immediate or unnecessary. In other cases, forgiveness is worthwhile either because the victim (for lack of a better word) believes the other person will be more careful now that the issue has been pointed out to them or it's no big deal if they don't.

But in a few cases, what seems a simple mistake to one person is considered an ethical violation by another and there's no easy resolution to the problem, because each believes they're right.

[Cainkane1]

I'm not sure that you'll get it in those circumstances. If a stranger hurts you it is easier just to cut them off. Forgiveness is more likely where there is an existing relationship that the parties want to continue.
I was fired from a job for something I didn't do back in 1997. I took the matter to the labor board and they ruled in my favor. I didn't want the job back so I just collected unemployment. My dear sweet old mother told me to forgive my former manager. Well while I couldn't do that I let it go. While I have no desire for revenge or for any harm to come to him I dearly hope I never see him or anyone connected to him again. I read somewhere that sometimes the closest thing you can do to forgive someone who has done you wrong is to stay away from him or her and thats what I did.