Is wanting revenge always wrong?

[Cainkane1]

Ok in other posts I have described a 15 year old boy who played hookey from school one day and ordered three pizzas with everything on them and when the 20 year old pizza delivery girl arrived he shot her through the head through the window in the door. The girl was married with a 7 month old son. His motive apparently was to have a joy ride in her van and perhaps rob and kill someone else that day. He has been in prison with no chance of parole since 1989. The prosecutor said if he had his way the boy would have been executed.

The family of the girl has vowed revenge if he ever gets released from prison. This of course will never happen.

Is it wrong to feel this way? I realise to some people it is. My personal feeling on the matter is this. Hes where he belongs.

[Fredrik]

Wanting revenge is no more right or wrong than wanting chocolate (which I do right now...damn). An extreme form of revenge (murder or worse) is definitely wrong, even if we completely ignore the suffering of the person who "deserves it", because there are always other people involved. If you e.g. kill the person who killed your sister, it will hurt his parents (even more than they deserve), and it will make your parents suffer even more than they do now, because they'll lose you too.

[Skeptical Greg]

I would say wanting revenge is normal and neither right or wrong...

[Robo Sapien]

There is no ethical code for desires, only for actions. Nothing wrong with wanting revenge, plenty wrong with exacting it.

Personally, I'd seek revenge even knowing it was wrong. If someone did that to my sister, I'd make damn sure he spent the rest of his (short) life in a lot of pain.

[Freddy]

I would say wanting revenge is normal and neither right or wrong...

I agree. Wanting revenge is never wrong. Taking revenge can definitely be wrong, though probably not always. I'd say it depends on the type of revenge taken, as well as the rest of the circumstances. Revenge can be hilarious when you're talking about a prank war with a college roomate, or something like that. Since I know that wasn't what the OP was contemplating, I will add that killing someone for revenge is always wrong, provided they do not, at the time you kill them, constitute an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or another.

[fuelair]

Ok in other posts I have described a 15 year old boy who played hookey from school one day and ordered three pizzas with everything on them and when the 20 year old pizza delivery girl arrived he shot her through the head through the window in the door. The girl was married with a 7 month old son. His motive apparently was to have a joy ride in her van and perhaps rob and kill someone else that day. He has been in prison with no chance of parole since 1989. The prosecutor said if he had his way the boy would have been executed.

The family of the girl has vowed revenge if he ever gets released from prison. This of course will never happen.

Is it wrong to feel this way? I realise to some people it is. My personal feeling on the matter is this. Hes where he belongs.

My relation/friend, I'd wait for him. No it isn't - Live your life normally, calmly,let the threats drift away and when/if he gets out find him, skin him, salt him, leave him somewhere screaming for death. "people" really need to learn you do not do that kind of thing without a penalty.

Note: if, while in prison, he is made into some big guy's bimbo and painfully pulls a train nightly until, well......, then maybe just kill him outright. But he should never have a painfree time or a joyful one.

[Thunder]

justice is fine. revenge is pointless.

[Brian-M]

justice is fine. revenge is pointless.

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution? (The legal system deals in law, not justice.)

[Xephyr]

Not always wrong.

My buddies are all prankster SOB's.
Revenge can taste real sweet sometimes.
:D

[Richard Masters]

justice is fine. revenge is pointless.

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution? (The legal system deals in law, not justice.)

I think you can find some happy medium between justice and revenge, even if the legal system can't provide justice.

[Eddie Dane]

I have pondered this question before.

If someone would do such harm to someone I loved, I'd be strongly motivated to hunt his sorry arse all over the globe until I'd catch him and dissolve him in acid. Alive.

But I'd probably stop myself for two reasons:
1. Repercussions for my loved ones. I have a family to take care of, I would hurt them in many ways by being imprisoned and bankrupted.
2. Civil responsibility. Let's face it: do I want to live in a society ruled by mob law? Really? Why didn't I move to Albania in the nineties, then?
Asking the rest of society to obey the law and go Charles Bronson myself? That would be deeply hypocritical.

[Eddie Dane]

Not always wrong.

My buddies are all prankster SOB's.
Revenge can taste real sweet sometimes.
:D

If someone give you wedgie, you can take revenge by putting talcum powder in their blow dryer.

If someone shoots your daughter in the head for kicks, well...I just don't know. Watching Reservoir Dogs a few times will probably start the brainstorming process.

[Manopolus]

Revenge is a desire to teach he who has wronged you and thus modify his/her behavior (or by example teach observers when you kill the guy). It is actually rather benevolent to want to add to another's education. I laugh at the idea that just because you are pissed off, irrational, and out of control, your actions are automatically wrong.

[Cainkane1]

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution? (The legal system deals in law, not justice.)
Randy Dobbs was only 15 when he murdered this young girl. You can see this punk if you go to georgia inmate locater. Dobbs has been incarcerated since oct 1989 and he has a new tattoo of Satan on his neck. He was short and dumpy when he went into the system now he looks sort of thin. I'm sure he has experienced his share of forced sodomy. Maybe living the way he is is punishment enough. He's 36 and he has never been with a woman. No highschool graduation, no college. No wife, no kids. Nothing.

[Monster Machine]

I think it depends on the type of revenge. If someone did that to one of my loved ones, I certainly wouldn't kill the little wretch, but there'd be a lot of pain involved once I got a hold of him.

E.

[Manopolus]

Anyway, my former post was intended as humor, but part of my point was that often the difference between "punishment," "justice" and "revenge" is a matter of which (if either) party has authority.

[Cainkane1]

http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryRedirector.jsp

Here he is if you want to see him and his tattoo.

[ponderingturtle]

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution? (The legal system deals in law, not justice.)

There is no answer to that. Some people would say yes some people would say no.

As for revenge, well it sets bad precedents and degenerates into long time feuds between families.

[qayak]

justice is fine. revenge is pointless.

Justice is fine, revenge is fine wine.

[Cainkane1]

As an aside Randys older brother caught living Hell in highschool. He was picked on and constantly reminded of what his younger brother had done and he was in fights and in the principals office on a weekly basis. I don't know how he turned out.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Wanting revenge is just an emotional response - neither right nor wrong. However, if the family kill this guy when he gets out of prison they will have committed a murder and should be punished accordingly.

In my opinion the creativity and effort going in to working out inventive ways to suitably punish this guy would be better expended working on ways to prevent a similar situation happening again with someone else.

[Cainkane1]

Wanting revenge is just an emotional response - neither right nor wrong. However, if the family kill this guy when he gets out of prison they will have committed a murder and should be punished accordingly.

In my opinion the creativity and effort going in to working out inventive ways to suitably punish this guy would be better expended working on ways to prevent a similar situation happening again with someone else.
Tell that to the 20 year old son who had to grow up without a mother. I don't think they should kill the punk if he gets out but I can understand the sentiment. If I were a judge and the punk got out and was murdered by the son I'd be very merciful.

[Cainkane1]

I have pondered this question before.

If someone would do such harm to someone I loved, I'd be strongly motivated to hunt his sorry arse all over the globe until I'd catch him and dissolve him in acid. Alive.

But I'd probably stop myself for two reasons:
1. Repercussions for my loved ones. I have a family to take care of, I would hurt them in many ways by being imprisoned and bankrupted.
2. Civil responsibility. Let's face it: do I want to live in a society ruled by mob law? Really? Why didn't I move to Albania in the nineties, then?
Asking the rest of society to obey the law and go Charles Bronson myself? That would be deeply hypocritical.
Very good Mr. dane. I agree with you totally.

[sgtbaker]

The only revenge, for me, that would suffice is one where the offender feels the pain I would feel; losing someone in such a cold, indifferent manner. When I think about it, a person like in the OP can only be capable of serving himself. I can't imagine him feeling much empathy while being able to shoot someone in the head for a joyride and a free pizza. So for someone who only lives by me-isms, where he is, for the rest of his life would seem fair enough. I might send him occassional pictures of people his age partying, having a good time, anything I could think of, that would make him wish to be outside those walls, but I couldn't inflict the kind of pain on him that he inflicted on the family of that woman.

[Cainkane1]

My relation/friend, I'd wait for him. No it isn't - Live your life normally, calmly,let the threats drift away and when/if he gets out find him, skin him, salt him, leave him somewhere screaming for death. "people" really need to learn you do not do that kind of thing without a penalty.

Note: if, while in prison, he is made into some big guy's bimbo and painfully pulls a train nightly until, well......, then maybe just kill him outright. But he should never have a painfree time or a joyful one.
He isn't but 5'4" tall. He was chunky with a fat posterior. He's white in a mostly black prison and I doubt he has been without sex. Just not the kind he wanted. He's apparently into Satanism right now judging by his pentagram tattoo with Satan in the middle. He knows he's where society wants him and he isn't getting out. He's probably institutionalised by now and he may not even want out. Nobody wants him. Not his family nor his now long forgotten ex friends.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Revenge is an emotional response that has its benefits and its detriments. As to the feeling I assign no ethical nor moral rightness. I can understand why a family in such a situation would want to kill this murderer very painfully but I would not condone following through on the action. The reason any family members make to commit such a killing would mitigate sentencing if I had personal influence on such a case. I can see having the same emotional response if this happened to one of my loved ones though I highly doubt I would follow through with violence. I like sgtbaker's idea of sending the murderer items that would promote his own emotional suffering.

From the OP description this murderer appears to be a true sociopathic individual (or whatever the current correct terms is used to refer to this), will likely always present a danger to society and should never be freed.

[Bluegill]

I believe that the greatest justice, and the most painful revenge, would be to somehow get a person who commits an evil act to feel guilt, regret, and remorse for the act.

If I murdered someone in cold blood, I can't think of any worse punishment for me than for me to be fully aware of the awfulness of my action.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is it wrong to feel this way?

No

[Fredrik]

I believe that the greatest justice, and the most painful revenge, would be to somehow get a person who commits an evil act to feel guilt, regret, and remorse for the act.

If I murdered someone in cold blood, I can't think of any worse punishment for me than for me to be fully aware of the awfulness of my action.
That's probably why you don't murder people in cold blood. Someone who kills someone just for fun isn't just suddenly going to realize that they did something bad, and feel really bad about it. And I'm sure you can think of a worse punishment if you try. Some of the ones that have already been suggested in this thread are certainly much more painful (and you can imagine extending those punishments over a long time as well).

[qayak]

If I murdered someone in cold blood, I can't think of any worse punishment for me than for me to be fully aware of the awfulness of my action.

One gets used to it just like they got used to the guilt they felt after stealing a candy from the corner store when they were 10 years old. Pretty soon they realize they haven't given it a thought in 3, 5 or even 10 years.

[fuelair]

Revenge is a desire to teach he who has wronged you and thus modify his/her behavior (or by example teach observers when you kill the guy). It is actually rather benevolent to want to add to another's education. I laugh at the idea that just because you are pissed off, irrational, and out of control, your actions are automatically wrong.I quite agree and have written in a number of threads that I consider it my duty to provide education in certain cases. More specifically, I refer to it as Terminal Education as the final product of it is an absolute knowledge/result that the person so educated is very aware that he did something wrong and has been thoroughlly admonished for it AND by the end of it, we can be certain he will never repeat the offense (what with being dead and all that entails.).

[Cainkane1]

Revenge is an emotional response that has its benefits and its detriments. As to the feeling I assign no ethical nor moral rightness. I can understand why a family in such a situation would want to kill this murderer very painfully but I would not condone following through on the action. The reason any family members make to commit such a killing would mitigate sentencing if I had personal influence on such a case. I can see having the same emotional response if this happened to one of my loved ones though I highly doubt I would follow through with violence. I like sgtbaker's idea of sending the murderer items that would promote his own emotional suffering.

From the OP description this murderer appears to be a true sociopathic individual (or whatever the current correct terms is used to refer to this), will likely always present a danger to society and should never be freed.
Dobbs was given two life terms plus 20 years. He was supposed to be up for parole in 20 years but apparently his behaviour in prison caused that option to be removed. He'll never be released. The tattoo of a pentagram with satan in the middle probably removed all doubt that he is beyond rehabilitation.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Dobbs was given two life terms plus 20 years. He was supposed to be up for parole in 20 years but apparently his behaviour in prison caused that option to be removed. He'll never be released. The tattoo of a pentagram with satan in the middle probably removed all doubt that he is beyond rehabilitation.

Eh, I'm really not concerned about the symbol at all. It certainly reflects negatively on him considering the environment, but without knowing the context of the symbol I find judging based on it is likely useless. I am not surprised however that in twenties years someone who acts the way he did in the initial incident has not changed and his behaviour continues to indicate he is a danger. I don't think I have heard of an actual credible treatment for such a mentality. This sort of loose wiring in a human brain is something we can recognize but don't really have any clue on how to fix.

[RenaissanceBiker]

He isn't but 5'4" tall. He was chunky with a fat posterior. He's white in a mostly black prison and I doubt he has been without sex. Just not the kind he wanted. He's apparently into Satanism right now judging by his pentagram tattoo with Satan in the middle. He knows he's where society wants him and he isn't getting out. He's probably institutionalised by now and he may not even want out. Nobody wants him. Not his family nor his now long forgotten ex friends.

He can still serve society as an example of what happens to people who act as he did.

[geni]

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution

Not really. You've got two options. Either you are dealing with a fairly sane normal human being in which case killing them for a single act at the age of 15 is excessive or you are dealing with someone of more questionable sanity at which point it is questionable how much of a threat and punishment capital punishment would be.

[Cainkane1]

Not really. You've got two options. Either you are dealing with a fairly sane normal human being in which case killing them for a single act at the age of 15 is excessive or you are dealing with someone of more questionable sanity at which point it is questionable how much of a threat and punishment capital punishment would be.
His brother said this. He isn't crazy he's mean as hell. He was no genius but he made C or better on his schoolwork. He could have resisted his impulse to kill that innocent girl. I think he wanted people to think he was a tough guy and I also believe he expected to be tried as a Juvenile. Well we showed him. You commit an adult crime you do adult time. If he had been 17 hed have been executed.

[Puppycow]

Ok in other posts I have described a 15 year old boy who played hookey from school one day and ordered three pizzas with everything on them and when the 20 year old pizza delivery girl arrived he shot her through the head through the window in the door. The girl was married with a 7 month old son. His motive apparently was to have a joy ride in her van and perhaps rob and kill someone else that day. He has been in prison with no chance of parole since 1989. The prosecutor said if he had his way the boy would have been executed.

The family of the girl has vowed revenge if he ever gets released from prison. This of course will never happen.

Is it wrong to feel this way? I realise to some people it is. My personal feeling on the matter is this. Hes where he belongs.

I would feel exactly the same way as the delivery girl's family. It's just the way nature made me. I could never get over it or forgive.

[mikeyx]

Wanting revenge is no more right or wrong than wanting chocolate (which I do right now...damn). An extreme form of revenge (murder or worse) is definitely wrong, even if we completely ignore the suffering of the person who "deserves it", because there are always other people involved. If you e.g. kill the person who killed your sister, it will hurt his parents (even more than they deserve), and it will make your parents suffer even more than they do now, because they'll lose you too.

wanting.....no, doing.....................lil more dicey

[mikeyx]

But in this case, wouldn't justice be execution? (The legal system deals in law, not justice.)

justice, legal, poetic or karmic?

[quixotecoyote]

I believe that the greatest justice, and the most painful revenge, would be to somehow get a person who commits an evil act to feel guilt, regret, and remorse for the act.

If I murdered someone in cold blood, I can't think of any worse punishment for me than for me to be fully aware of the awfulness of my action.

What about being fully aware of the awfulness of your action, while on fire?

[geni]

His brother said this. He isn't crazy he's mean as hell. He was no genius but he made C or better on his schoolwork. He could have resisted his impulse to kill that innocent girl. I think he wanted people to think he was a tough guy and I also believe he expected to be tried as a Juvenile. Well we showed him. You commit an adult crime you do adult time. If he had been 17 hed have been executed.

Murder is not an exclusivly adult crime as was shown when Silje Redergard was killed by a couple of 6 year olds. Then you've got all the kids in the lord's resistance army and the RUF.

[Bluegill]

What about being fully aware of the awfulness of your action, while on fire? Works for me conceptually, but in practice I think that the conflagration would hinder the awareness.

I think there are quite a few examples of people who have murdered and felt no remorse, but then who much later truly regretted and hated their actions and would have done anything to make amends, were that possible--and felt this way without the threat of someone preparing to flay them alive.

I suppose that's the exception rather then the rule, though.

[Skeptic]

Is it wrong to feel this way?

Certainly not. But even if the FEELING is correct, sometimes ACTING on it is wrong.

[fuelair]

What about being fully aware of the awfulness of your action, while on fire?I'm on that end of the equation, I just believe salt curing will allow the mind to concentrate both more fully and longer than a quick roasting

[Skeptic]

I'm on that end of the equation,

As your avatar shows...

[ponderingturtle]

He can still serve society as an example of what happens to people who act as he did.

But do people who act as he did pay attention to those examples? If not why would this be a useful example?

[ponderingturtle]

I would feel exactly the same way as the delivery girl's family. It's just the way nature made me. I could never get over it or forgive.

So are the Hattfeilds and McCoys personal idols?

[Cainkane1]

So are the Hattfeilds and McCoys personal idols?
No the Hatfields and McKoys were fighting each other. When this punk killed the girl the punks family disowned him. He effectively has no mother or father or brother anymore. If this guy is ever released and if the victims family does something to him there probably would be no resentment from the punks former family members.

[ponderingturtle]

No the Hatfields and McKoys were fighting each other. When this punk killed the girl the punks family disowned him. He effectively has no mother or father or brother anymore. If this guy is ever released and if the victims family does something to him there probably would be no resentment from the punks former family members.

So if they didn't disown him it would be wrong to kill him but because they did it is OK?

Seems strange to put so much power in the criminals family in cases like this.

[Cainkane1]

So if they didn't disown him it would be wrong to kill him but because they did it is OK?

Seems strange to put so much power in the criminals family in cases like this.
Ok I don't condone murder. The punk is in prison and there he will probably stay. He's been there since he was 15 and he's approaching middle age now. Back when it happened I thought it might be ok to release him on probation after he served 25 years. I felt that having missed haveing a girlfriend and not being able to enjoy his tenaged years and young adulthood might be enough punishment. However as time has gone by I feel differently. The gravity of his crime is so severe that allowing him to enjoy freedom even as a middleaged man is odious to me. The victims family is still devastated. her husband never remarried. Her son grew up without a mother. The victims family think about their daughter everyday. I want the worthless scum to rot in prison so he won't get the victims family in trouble for killing him.

[Cainkane1]

I'm on that end of the equation, I just believe salt curing will allow the mind to concentrate both more fully and longer than a quick roasting
Nope torture is out. Societys behaviour has to be above the criminals. Going under the needle is the worse thing society should do to a person like Randy Dobbs.

[fuelair]

Nope torture is out. Societys behaviour has to be above the criminals. Going under the needle is the worse thing society should do to a person like Randy Dobbs.I respectfully disagree.:)

When you choose to be "above" evil, evil gets too much maneuvering room. I understand why people feel that way (multiple reasons) but I saw too many examples where following that rule let others be harmed (and, by harmed I mean killed, tortured, raped, etc.). Cost is too high for me.

[Cainkane1]

I respectfully disagree.:)

When you choose to be "above" evil, evil gets too much maneuvering room. I understand why people feel that way (multiple reasons) but I saw too many examples where following that rule let others be harmed (and, by harmed I mean killed, tortured, raped, etc.). Cost is too high for me.
I doubt if impaling Randy anally over a slow fire would be acceptable in the civilized world but perhaps after a fashion your right. Perhaps a public session of torture would reduce heineous crime. However there is one hugh problem. Society makes mistakes. There have been people execute for murder when years later its proven they were innocent of the crime. A man spent 13 years on deathrow for kidnapping, rapeing and strangling to death a 8 year old girl. There was on problem he was innocent. He was convicted before DNA was used. The DNA on the girls underwear wasn't his. It belonged to another prisoner incarcerated for an unrelated rape of an adult woman.

Ok how would you feel if this man had been flayed alive over a slow fire? I mean an innocent man would be tortured and dead. Randy deserves to be executed but he was too young for the death penalty. His life is no bed of roses. He's short and stocky and white in a mostly all black prison.

[fuelair]

I doubt if impaling Randy anally over a slow fire would be acceptable in the civilized world but perhaps after a fashion your right. Perhaps a public session of torture would reduce heineous crime. However there is one hugh problem. Society makes mistakes. There have been people execute for murder when years later its proven they were innocent of the crime. A man spent 13 years on deathrow for kidnapping, rapeing and strangling to death a 8 year old girl. There was on problem he was innocent. He was convicted before DNA was used. The DNA on the girls underwear wasn't his. It belonged to another prisoner incarcerated for an unrelated rape of an adult woman.

Ok how would you feel if this man had been flayed alive over a slow fire? I mean an innocent man would be tortured and dead. Randy deserves to be executed but he was too young for the death penalty. His life is no bed of roses. He's short and stocky and white in a mostly all black prison.

I am quite aware of mistakes, I would in fairness tend to apply this to cases where the evidence is clear and incontrovertible and/or (as a "we can't get a conviction because ..... even though the evidence we were not allowed to present made it impossible he did not do it , but if you wish to handle it yourself, I'm afraid we will accidentally miss proper precedure enough that you won't be convictable either. Your option)you were present and know it absolutely but jury doesn't and chooses to listen to shyster.
I, by the way, am of the opinion that evidence once obtained should be admissable regardless of how it was obtained. Punishment for misactions should exist, but they should NEVER preclude justice for a victim. Equally, covering up evidence simply because you want to move on to elected office and a good conviction rate will get you there should be punished by life imprisonment in situation where your cellmates think you are a pretty guy.

[BrewnSki]

I have to generally agree that while there is nothing wrong with wanting revenge for such an act it is more difficult to support moving from desire to action.

On the subject of revenge a friend of mine once noted (not sure if he was the originator): When planning revenge one must first ask "What would Dante do?"

[Howie Felterbush]

Not always wrong.

My buddies are all prankster SOB's.
Revenge can taste real sweet sometimes.
:D

Is it true that it's better served cold?

[fuelair]

Is it true that it's better served cold?

At least properly aged - makes it harder to know to whom it should be attached if the body is found (Hydrofluoric acid is your friend).