BREAKING NEWS: Tripartite 'Proximity' Talks to Resume

[webfusion]

United States' Special Envoy George Mitchell is going to be kick-starting negotiations during the coming week or so.

Arab League Oversight Committee has voted to approve the process commencing.

There will be four months of back-and-forth tripartite US-mediated talks. The goal is to get to Direct Dual Negotiations.


Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks?

[WildCat]

Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks?
That there will be punch and pie at the next meeting?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Israeli apartheid.

[Doctor Evil]

Israeli apartheid.

Huh? Care to explain?

[Skeptic]

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

[Giz]

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

Look, negotiations are good. Surely all non neo-con warmongers can agree on that.

If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations.

Therefore, Israel is bad, QED.

[WildCat]

If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations.
I though that violent extremists were just a tiny percentage of Palestinians?

[The Fool]

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

Hi web, welcome back....you went away for quite a while, lying on a beach in the south pacific?


anyway. It appears your thread has got "skeptic" horny :)



as to the talks.....its my view that neither side is willing to negotiate in good faith so good luck to a US imposed solution. Although I expect wildcat, "skeptic" and the other lads to throw up a fair display of bluster.

[Thunder]

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have.

[webfusion]

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article426162.ece
A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud).

Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians.
Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae.

[Darth Rotor]

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article426162.ece
A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud).

Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians.

Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32982101/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

It looks as though the Pals and Israelis are doing something called "indirect talks" which is ... progress ... or all that can be managed at the moment.

But no new Israeli housing projects in East Jerusalem have been approved since March, raising speculation Netanyahu has imposed a de facto moratorium that could keep talks ticking while avoiding a showdown with his far-right coalition partners
Nothing will happen quickly, however, something may happen in time.

DR

[Thunder]

i expect these talks to go no where. any peace plan that involves evacuating hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers will lead to a low-level or even full civil war in Israel.

[webfusion]

Why does there need to be any 'evacuation' at all? The stated intention is to retain the areas where the majority of Israeli citizens now live throughout these Territories, as an integral part of the State of Israel.

In other words, redraw the old demarcations and eliminate those 1949 Lines.
If I'm living in Alfe Menashe, I won't have to move anywhere. I'll become "gerrymandered" into Israel. Same thing with those living on French Hill, or Gilo, or even Ramat Shlomo.

[Thunder]

I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper. And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens.

But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem".

[WildCat]

The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have.
So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do?

[webfusion]

I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper.

That is the entire focus of these current talks. The question has been, and remains, will there be ANY give and take amongst the various Islamic Fundamentalist rejectionist factions regarding redrawing and re-demarcating those obsolete 1949 Cease-Fire Lines? Sure, you're welcome to present any evidence showing such flexibility on the part of HAMAS, et al.

And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens.

Good thing that YOU have no problem with it.
I can pretty much bet that plenty of Palestinians would have a problem with it. Especially those Palestinians who are affiliated with HAMAS, or Jihad Islami, or any number of other powerfully-determined organizations whose aim is to reject completely any Jewish hegemony in Palestine. Whatsoever.

But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem".

What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone?

[Thunder]

What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone?

i dont mean the Old City. I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim".

any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice.

[Thunder]

So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do?

no. Jews in Palestine should be treated just as equally and farely as Arabs in Israel are treated.

[webfusion]

I don't mean the Old City.

Then you are being dishonest.

There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount. (Haram al-Sharif)
Al-Aqsa is the central or crucial point of contention.
You cannot dismiss it with a wave of your hand by just saying "I don't mean the Old City."

I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim".

The Jerusalem District (sanjak) of the Ottoman Empire certainly extended into the surrounding hills. You surely must realize that?

Furthermore, what about Mt. Scopus? Do you feel that there is some legitimate right for the Jews to have a presence there? It wasn't "suddenly annexed" -- there is a valid Jewish title to that specific part of Jerusalem (see: Hebrew University).


Any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice.

OK, I'm convinced.
See, that was easy.
Now, can you get the HAMAS to sign on to that?

[Thunder]

Then you are being dishonest.

There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount.

that's very nice.

but the fact remains that Israel unileraterally and illegally annexed West Bank lands that have NEVER had anything to do with the City of Jerusalem, for 3,000 years.

this annexation tripled the size of the city, and now right-wing Zionists have the chutzpah to bitch about how giving back these lands is tantamount to "dividing the Jewish people's heritage".

Chutzpah and lies..to the max.

[webfusion]

The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States.

So?

[Thunder]

The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States.


the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality.

not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem.

[webfusion]

the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality.

not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem.

That is simply untrue.

The Arabs of Jerusalem carry Israeli ID's, and when Israel gained full control of Jerusalem in the 1967 Six-Day War, the Arabs in East Jerusalem were offered a chance to become full Israeli citizens in all legal respects. They primarily refused, although East Jerusalem Arabs receive still Israeli social security and heath benefits. They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

[WildCat]

They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.
Except on Jew-only roads, right?

:duck:

[Thunder]

They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not???

don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset?

do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights?

[WildCat]

they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not???

don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset?

do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights?
Puerto Rico?

[Thunder]

Puerto Rico?

let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again.

yeah...you just let me know.

[WildCat]

let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again.

yeah...you just let me know.
I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory!

:yahoo

[Thunder]

I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory!

:yahoo

every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country.

let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****.

[Thunder]

so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

another amazing strawman...from der Strawman Koenige.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

A Haifa University survey investigating Arabs and Jews' views on one another reveals disturbing results.

The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

[mortimer]

every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country.

let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****.

The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts.

[Thunder]

The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts.

Puerto Ricans have the right to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right.

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

[webfusion]

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right ((to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.))

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim.

Only a miniscule percentage vote in the municipal elections. Most refuse to, on the grounds that it would be tantamount to recognizing Israeli sovereignity. .... The PLO/PA Boycott of the Democratic Process in Jerusalem is an ongoing tactic to de-legitimize the de-jure control Israel has there.

Going back to the last time elections were held in the Palestinian National Authority
--- 2006 ---
Associated Press:
RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli Cabinet on Sunday (January 15, 2006) unanimously approved voting by those living in east Jerusalem for Palestinian parliamentary elections.

[Thunder]

Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim.

Israel controls and rules East Jerusalem. The Knesset rules this city. Not giving the Palestinians the right to vote in Knesset elections is nothing less than Apartheid.

[webfusion]

The Palestinians of Jerusalem want to disassociate from Israel, and prefer to boycott elections held by Israel, and not declare themselves "Israelis" ---- so, your suggestion that they would WANT to vote for Knesset (thereby providing legitimacy for that body) is not supported by the facts.

[Thunder]

The Palestinians of Jerusalem want to disassociate from Israel, and prefer to boycott elections held by Israel, and not declare themselves "Israelis" ---- so, your suggestion that they would WANT to vote for Knesset (thereby providing legitimacy for that body) is not supported by the facts.

anyone who pays taxes to Israel and who lives under Israeli sovereignty, should have full political rights. how they choose to enact these rights..is their business. anything less is Apartheid.

[webfusion]

They do have full political rights -- they can vote for their own Fate, within the Palestinian National Authority which organizes their Representative Parliament.

It seems strange that you want to FORCE them to do something that they themselves have no interest in.

[bigjelmapro]

Don't proximity talks have to take place within the same building, or at the very least, the same city? Shuttling between Ramallah and J'lem is a bit hectic....

And Web, no need to argue with Parky. He has a warped sense of reality and will continuously put you on the defensive. He's failed utterly in every thread he's posted in so here he is again in another thread spurting off the same failed arguments.

[webfusion]

Don't proximity talks have to take place within the same building, or at the very least, the same city? Shuttling between Ramallah and J'lem is a bit hectic....

I wondered about that myself.
You would think that all three negotiating teams would check into a nice resort hotel somewhere (in a neutral location, like Aqaba) and have the USA team be the go-between and mediators.

The current method is too vague and loose.
It isn't sustainable for four months, especially since it is understood in advance that there will be complaints of "new violations" by one side or the other that will invariably cause the talks to be suspended, leaving everyone back on square one.

[mortimer]

Puerto Ricans have the right to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right.

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

Of course they can vote, just not in Israeli elections.

Just like Puerto Ricans can vote, just not in United States elections.

[Thunder]

Of course they can vote, just not in Israeli elections.

Just like Puerto Ricans can vote, just not in United States elections.

Puerto Ricans have chosen to remain a Commonweath. Let us know when the Palestinians get to vote on their own fate.

[WildCat]

Puerto Ricans have chosen to remain a Commonweath. Let us know when the Palestinians get to vote on their own fate.
Now it's not just Arabs in Jerusalem, but Palestinians in general.

That goalpost is on wheels!

At any rate, Palestinians do get to vote. Unfortuantely, in Gaza they elected Hamas. Not sure if there will ever be another election in Gaza. Once you vote the terrorists in it's hard to vote them out.

[Thunder]

Now it's not just Arabs in Jerusalem, but Palestinians in general.

That goalpost is on wheels!

do Palestinian tax-payers who are permanent residents of Israel, in East Jerusalem, have the right to vote in parliamentary elections?

no? than that is Apartheid.

[WildCat]

do Palestinian tax-payers who are permanent residents of Israel, in East Jerusalem, have the right to vote in parliamentary elections?

no? than that is Apartheid.
It's not if they don't want to be Israeli citizens and vote. Is there some law preventing them from becoming Israeli citizens parky?

This is like saying that the US is an apartheid state because many citizens don't bother to register to vote, yet still pay taxes etc.

[Thunder]

It's not if they don't want to be Israeli citizens and vote. Is there some law preventing them from becoming Israeli citizens parky?


Do Palestinians in "East Jerusalem" still have the right to obtain automatic citizenship? They did in 1967.

[mortimer]

do Palestinian tax-payers who are permanent residents of Israel, in East Jerusalem, have the right to vote in parliamentary elections?

no? than that is Apartheid.

Do Puerto Rican tax-payers who are citizens of the United States, have the right to vote in Presidential elections?

no? Is that also apartheid?

[Thunder]

Do Puerto Rican tax-payers who are citizens of the United States, have the right to vote in Presidential elections?


Puerto Ricans can vote in Presidential primaries, but not the general election. though, as soon as they choose to move to Florida or New York or California or whatever, they can then vote in Presidential elections.

Do Palestinians in East Jerusalem have the right to simply move to Tel Aviv or Haifa? would they have the right to vote in Knesset elections if they did?

thought not.

[WildCat]

Do Palestinians in "East Jerusalem" still have the right to obtain automatic citizenship? They did in 1967.
What's that parky/Thunder? You admit that they can become citizens, but for whatever reason chose not to? And now you're whining that they can't vote?

The mind boggles.

[Thunder]

What's that parky/Thunder? You admit that they can become citizens, but for whatever reason chose not to?

um....this is 2010...not 1967. it appears they were given a one time offer.

I wonder if Palestinians born in East Jerusalem after 1967...are given the same offer when they hit 18?

what do you think Wildcat? "Cat" got ya tongue?

[mortimer]

um....this is 2010...not 1967. it appears they were given a one time offer.

I wonder if Palestinians born in East Jerusalem after 1967...are given the same offer when they hit 18?

what do you think Wildcat? "Cat" got ya tongue?
"Appears" that way? What evidence do you have to back up that claim?

[Thunder]

"Appears" that way? What evidence do you have to back up that claim?

in 1967, Israel offered citizenship to the Palestinians of "East Jerusalem".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency

[mortimer]

in 1967, Israel offered citizenship to the Palestinians of "East Jerusalem".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Residency

Fair enough. It does look like Israel has attempted to reduce the number of Palestinian permanent residents in East Jerusalem, with some success. Not sure I agree with that policy.

[bigjelmapro]

The current method is too vague and loose.
It isn't sustainable for four months, especially since it is understood in advance that there will be complaints of "new violations" by one side or the other that will invariably cause the talks to be suspended, leaving everyone back on square one.
The PA has absolutely no pressure on them to act. The Obama administration has done its best to put all the pressure on Israel to make another bout of fruitless concessions, blaming Israel for a malady of unrelated issues, ie:

From pro-Israel to anti-Israel apologist (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=174192)

INDYK EVEN went to the length of reiterating that Israeli intransigence was contributing to US military casualties – a manifestly untrue accusation (as Indyk himself must know) – repudiated by Gen. David Petraeus, who emphasized the positive aspects of Israel as a strategic ally. Indyk effectively claimed that American soldiers were dying because Israelis are endangering “a vital national security interest for the United States,” presumably by building apartments in Jewish neighborhoods in east Jerusalem.

In subsequent more explicit comments, Indyk said 200,000 US troops are fighting terrorism and Obama is obliged to write between 30 and 40 condolence letters a month – far more than the Israeli prime minister. Such chilling remarks from a mainstream American Jewish public figure have the capacity of inflicting enormous damage on Israel and the Jewish community.

Indyk also repeats the absurdity that by making more unilateral concessions to the Palestinians, Israel will enable the US to resolve the Iranian nuclear threat, again linking the construction freeze in Jerusalem with Obama’s ability to deal with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

This balderdash is compounded when he also urges Israel to cede the Golan to Syria – ignoring the latter’s alliance with Iran and its increasing aggressiveness toward Israel.
...

Does this sound familiar?

[The Fool]

The PA has absolutely no pressure on them to act. The Obama administration has done its best to put all the pressure on Israel to make another bout of fruitless concessions, blaming Israel for a malady of unrelated issues, ie:

From pro-Israel to anti-Israel apologist (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=174192)

Does this sound familiar?
stop flapping.. There are going to be talks... Sorry, but the far right in Israel is losing its power to drive the agenda. get used to it...