Do you say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance?

[MatildaGage]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".

[sphenisc]

Every time I've recited the Pledge of Allegiance I've said "under God".

[BaaBaa]

Newp. But then, I'm a godless Bolshevik Canadian.

[Accidental Martyr]

Not now. I did when I didn't know any better. I also can't remember the last time I actually recited the pledge.....

[Vic Vega]

imagineaa - Are you still in High School? Not sure where else you would be asked to do this.

You, of course, always have the right to not say it at all.

[mhaze]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".

Why?

What is wrong with the Undergod?

[Bikewer]

Would that be Crom? I don't recall reciting the Pledge since childhood, rather a long time ago. I was in Catholic school at the time, and the phrase was standard.

[Upchurch]

Not now. I did when I didn't know any better. I also can't remember the last time I actually recited the pledge.....
This.

Why?

What is wrong with the Undergod?
It's against that whole Constitution thingie. But if you don't care about that, nothing.

[Lisa Simpson]

I don't say it anymore. It's still recited at the opening of almost any school function I'm forced to attend with my kids.

[MarkCorrigan]

I find the whole thing to be really weird.

What country, especially one which is ostensibly free, makes it's kids pledge allegiance to the national flag and nation itself?

[KingMerv00]

I find the whole thing to be really weird.

What country, especially one which is ostensibly free, makes it's kids pledge allegiance to the national flag and nation itself?

Yea it's weird but no one really takes it seriously anymore.

[Meadmaker]

My kid recently joined Cub Scouts. I suddenly finding myself saying the Pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis for the first time in 30 years.

I pause during the under God part.

I find the whole thing to be really weird.

What country, especially one which is ostensibly free, makes it's kids pledge allegiance to the national flag and nation itself?


Look back to its history, and take out the "under God" section. It was the early 20th century. Republicans were still trying to "wave the bloody shirt", painting the Democrats as the party of rebellion. Meanwhile, waves of immigrants were hitting American shores. People suspected these immigrants might put their ties to the "old country" above their new home.

Out of this environment was the pledge born.

[thaiboxerken]

I don't say it, but I also don't criticize others for saying it. I would, however, like to see it taken out since it is not part of the original pledge AND it is there to promote a monotheistic viewpoint.

[Thunder]

i don't really believe in the Biblical god, but I say "Under God" anyways.

why? cause I don't care.

:)

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yea it's weird but no one really takes it seriously anymore.

Then why do the Right-Wingers go ape-**** when it's not recited?

[Achán hiNidráne]

Then why do the Right-Wingers go ape-**** when it's not recited?

And no, I don't say under God. In fact, I don't recite the pledge at all.

[Dorian Gray]

I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. That's just silly. A country, sure, but not a flag. So if a time ever came where that was being recited (not that I've really heard it for decades), I'd say something like "I pledge allegiance....to the republic... one nation...indivisible with liberty and justice for all." In my head.

[KingMerv00]

Then why do the Right-Wingers go ape-**** when it's not recited?

I meant the kids making the pledge.

[Complexity]

I did when I was in grade school.

I haven't "recited the pledge" for 42 years. Don't plan on doing so ever again.

[Manopolus]

I have never once recited the pledge of allegiance. I just stood there silently. No one ever gave me any crap about it, either. I did swear an oath when I joined the army though. I don't remember whether there was a "God" phrase in that oath or not (I think there was an optional one, but I don't remember for sure), but if there was, I just left it out.

[Upchurch]

I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. That's just silly. A country, sure, but not a flag. So if a time ever came where that was being recited (not that I've really heard it for decades), I'd say something like "I pledge allegiance....to the republic... one nation...indivisible with liberty and justice for all." In my head.

I never really thought about it, but now that you mention it, I agree with the flag part, too. If we must have one at all, it ought to be something along the lines of:
I pledge allegiance to the United States of America and to the republic which represents it, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

There is a distinction there between the country (USA) and government (the republic) which I think is apt and somewhat appropriate. There is nothing there I couldn't get behind, because even if I disagree with the republic on occasion, I have never broken my allegiance with it.

That being said, the notion of pledge of allegiance is somewhat out of place, given the origins of our country. Looking back on it, I'm a little uncomfortable with the way we use (or have used) it among school children as a daily ritual.

[Meadmaker]

i don't really believe in the Biblical god, but I say "Under God" anyways.

why? cause I don't care.

:)

For me, my omission of "under God" is not so much an objection to acknowledging some sort of deity, but rather literary taste.

Without "under God" it says, One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Each phrase emphasizes the previous in a statement that says that we have one nation for all of our people, as opposed to separate ones. We don't have a separate nation for latinos or Irish or blacks or Hindus. You don't have one nation for the rich, and another for the poor. It's one and only one nation, you can't break it up, and everyone in it has equal rights. Well, that's the theory anyway,

When you throw "under God" in between "one nation" and "indivisible", it really weakens the link between the two statements.

It's not something I really worry about, though. I just find myself omitting the line, although I usually move my lips so it won't be so conspicuous.


I once read a story about some military regulation that had been passed that fobade witchcraft. Needless to say, the neo-pagans and wiccans were up in arms and a bunch of them trotted off to a town meeting of their local Congressman to complain. The town meeting began with the pledge, and some people wondered why there seemed almost like there was an extra "s" or "ess" after "God" in the pledge.

[casebro]

"The republic" and "The U S of A" are not redundant. Parsed, it goes "to the flag... and to the republic for which it stands". The "of the U S of A" is only descriptive of the flag earlier mentioned.

But shouldn't we have "to the Constitution" in there somewhere?

[Foolmewunz]

"The republic" and "The U S of A" are not redundant. Parsed, it goes "to the flag... and to the republic for which it stands". The "of the U S of A" is only descriptive of the flag earlier mentioned.

But shouldn't we have "to the Constitution" in there somewhere?

".... and the Constitution"? Why not? Then we could add in, "... but more importantly, actually, the principles upon which said Constitution was based but not necessarily the more literal interpretations thereof..."

Or maybe we could counter that with a more rigid view of the intentions of the founding fathers? Something to make Justice Thomas proud?

Perhaps a multiple choice Pledge?

I'm with the "I don't pledge to a flag" group. I've been skipping The Pledge in its entirety since I was about 12 or 13, and elided past just the undergod part for a couple of years prior to that.

I don't think any less of my country as a result. I'm pretty sure I understand the liberal traditions upon which the USA was founded and I can support those other ideas with every breath I draw (indivisible, with liberty and justice for all). I don't need to pledge to a symbol to re-up my citizenship on a regular basis.

(Disclaimer: I'm not exactly the poster child for Patriotism.)

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

What is wrong with the Undergod?

That whole Cthulhu-like devouring of infant souls quality.

That being, when I was in high school I said the "under God" part. Mostly because I thought omitting it was kind of a silly and useless gesture, but to each his or her own. I did however think it was kind of silly that we claim not to be a theocracy but apparently our nation is ruled "under God".

[fishbob]

No god.
No 'the flag of' either.

[Brainster]

I generally say, "under Obama, the Nigerian". That way I piss everybody off as well as come off as a crank.

:D

[Darth Rotor]

Just wondering.



Yes, I do, but when I was in elementary school, I'd say "Underdog" instead since I thought it was funny. (Underdog was a popular cartoon at the time).

It would now and again make Gary laugh when I did that (the guy who sat in the desk next to mine).

DR

[Crossbow]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".

Up until about the fourth grade I did so, but since then I no longer do so.

[cienaños]

I like to throw people by sneezing rambunctiously on that part.

[uruk]

I don't often say the pledge of allegiance, But when I do I use Ralph Wiggum's version:

I fudge a legions,
To the flack,
Of the enlightened
Skates of a merry cup.
And two derrick public,
Four witches dance,
One Asian,
Underground,
In the visible,
With liver tea and
Just us for owl.

[ksbluesfan]

I usually replace "under God" with "hail Satan". I usually scream that part too.

:D

[willhaven]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".I don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[Fordama]

I'm a teacher and we do the Pledge every day. I never say "under god." In all these years not one student has ever said anything to me about it. I'm not even sure anyone ever noticed!

Fordama

[CriticalThanking]

Yea it's weird but no one really takes it seriously anymore.Sadly, some do around here. Welcome to Texas, where we appoint Young Earth Creationists to lead the State Board of Education. *sigh*

I use an older version. (I could swear I posted this before.) "[O]ne nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice and equality for all." The worde line up pretty well, so you finish at the same time as everyone else, but the words sound just different enough that it makes people wonder.

CT

[DDWW]

Yes.

DDWW

[The Painter]

You know the really sad part? You people think you're funny.

[thaiboxerken]

You know the really sad part? You people think you're funny.

And you think you're clever.

[Towlie]

I like to finish with "with liberty and justice for sale."

[KingMerv00]

You know the really sad part? You people think you're funny.

What problem do you have with what has been said?

[uruk]

When it comes to all this pomp and circumstance and pagentry crap I am remined of George Carlin. "Symbols are for the symbol (read simple) minded".

What is more important? The people and the ideals that make up country or a piece of cloth with stars and stripes on it? The actions we take or a poem repeated adnauseum to the point where the words looses all meaning?

The flag and the pledge of alliegance are not our country.

Do you think a person who devotes or gives his/her life to the service of this country really needs to salute a flag or recite poetry? Do his/her actions show more and say more than a flag or pledge ever will?

Is it the flowers, or cards or jewelry that signifies that you love your husband or wife? Or is it the time and actions and the devotion you give to them?


It does not anger or bother me when someone burns a flag. It angers me when they kill or hurt or try to overthrow.

Forget thier words, look at thier actions.

[MattusMaximus]

I'm a high school teacher, and every morning they recite the Pledge over the loudspeaker at the beginning of school. I rarely recite the Pledge, I refuse to lead the kids in doing so (they're old enough to make up their own minds), and sometimes I don't even pause what I'm doing (especially if I'm writing stuff on the board for the start of class).

When I do recite the Pledge, I never say "under God".

[Thunder]

to me, the flag represents our nation AND our values. that is why I have no problem pledging allegiance to it.

[MarkCorrigan]

to me, the flag represents our nation AND our values. that is why I have no problem pledging allegiance to it.

Once again, an outsider here stating that I find it totally bizarre that a citizen of a nation such as the USA would pledge allegiance to it. You don't make a pledge of allegiance in a Westernised democracy unless you're joining the armed forces or the government or something, why encourage schoolchildren do it?

I know it's a trite argument, but really, the only nations that do that are ones that tend not to be democracies. It just sits wrongly with me, like the hyper-patriotism you guys (generalisation) seem to go in for.

[cienaños]

Once again, an outsider here stating that I find it totally bizarre that a citizen of a nation such as the USA would pledge allegiance to it. You don't make a pledge of allegiance in a Westernised democracy unless you're joining the armed forces or the government or something, why encourage schoolchildren do it?

I know it's a trite argument, but really, the only nations that do that are ones that tend not to be democracies. It just sits wrongly with me, like the hyper-patriotism you guys (generalisation) seem to go in for.


I'd pin it on post-WWII fears...

From wiki:
Pledge of Allegiance Louis A. Bowman (1872-1959) was the first to initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge [...] He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance [...] Over the next two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide [...] This campaign led to several official attempts to prompt Congress to adopt the Knights of Columbus’ policy for the entire nation. These attempts failed.

In 1952, Holger Christian Langmack wrote a letter to President Truman suggesting the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Mr. Langmack was a Danish philosopher and educator who came to America in 1911. He was one of the originators of the Prayer Breakfast and a religious leader in Washington, D.C. [...]

The final successful push came from George MacPherson Docherty. Some American presidents honored Lincoln's birthday by attending services at the church Lincoln attended, New York Avenue Presbyterian Church [...] On February 7, 1954, with President Eisenhower sitting in Lincoln's pew, the church's pastor, George MacPherson Docherty, delivered a sermon based on the Gettysburg Address titled "A New Birth of Freedom." He argued that the nation's might lay not in arms but its spirit and higher purpose. He noted that the Pledge's sentiments could be those of any nation, that "there was something missing in the pledge, and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life." He cited Lincoln's words "under God" as defining words that set the United States apart from other nations.

President Eisenhower, though raised a Jehovah's Witness, had been baptized a Presbyterian just a year before. He responded enthusiastically to Docherty in a conversation following the service. Eisenhower acted on his suggestion the next day and on February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. Congress passed the necessary legislation and Eisenhower signed the bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954.

The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress amending §7 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942.

[Towlie]

to me, the flag represents our nation AND our values. that is why I have no problem pledging allegiance to it.But the real issue here is the part that was inserted in the midst of the McCarthy era during the hysterical fear of the "godless" communists, when people were digging fallout shelters. Do you maintain that the pledge better represents "our" values with that relatively recent insertion?

Answering will help us understand what you really mean by "our".

[KingMerv00]

Once again, an outsider here stating that I find it totally bizarre that a citizen of a nation such as the USA would pledge allegiance to it. You don't make a pledge of allegiance in a Westernised democracy unless you're joining the armed forces or the government or something, why encourage schoolchildren do it?

I think you are attributing far to much importance to it. Very few children "pledge". They tend to stand there and mumble while picking their nose.

Think of it as a vestige. Like the queen.

[Towlie]

The history of the Pledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegience) is interesting. Here are some tidbits:

It was written in 1892 by a Baptist minister who was a Christian socialist. In apparent respect for the vision of our Founding Fathers and the very first provision of the First Amendment of our Bill of Rights, he saw no need for any mention of God.

The phrase "one nation indivisible" appeared in the Pledge as it was originally written, which was about 27 years after the Civil War. It seems to represent a celebration of the failure of the Confederacy. Note that the phrase contains no comma and represents a single thought, as in "one indivisible nation".

The botched insertion of "under God" in 1954 was done in such a way as to divide the phrase, "one nation indivisible" (which itself should have been regarded as indivisible), into two seemingly redundant thoughts: America is "one nation" and then, later, is "indivisible". It seems to me that those who chose to alter the Pledge didn't fully comprehend the thoughts that were originally being expressed.

[CORed]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".

I'm not sure I've actually recited the Pledge of Allegiance since I graduated from high school. Back then, I used to say "under God". If an occasion to recite it came up now, I would omit "under God".

[CORed]

I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. That's just silly. A country, sure, but not a flag. So if a time ever came where that was being recited (not that I've really heard it for decades), I'd say something like "I pledge allegiance....to the republic... one nation...indivisible with liberty and justice for all." In my head.

I have to agree with this. The pledge has always seemed backwards to me that way. "I pledge allegiance to the flag -- oh yeah, and by the way to that republic thing for which it stands".

The flag is just a piece of cloth. Why would you want to pledge allegiance to it?

[Dorian Gray]

And on a related note, I don't give a flying fornication if a political candidate has a flag pin on his or her lapel. No one else gives a crap in the (technically) interim years, so why should they in an election year? Also on my DGAS* list: putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem. "He didn't put his hand over his heart" Really? Well neither did you, Tinkerbelle - your heart is in the middle of your chest, not over by your left armpit. What's that? You think it's important? Well, you didn't have your hand on your heart when you said that, so I can't take you seriously, can I?



*Don't Give A S.......

[KingMerv00]

I just want to rub it in some more. :p

I heard Gordon Brown presentented his resignation to the queen today. Once again, an outsider here stating that I find it totally bizarre that a citizen of a nation such as the UK pay such respect to the queen. You don't ask the queen's permission to quit in a Westernised democracy.

I know it's a trite argument, but really, the only nations that do that are ones that tend to be monarchies. It just sits wrongly with me, like the queen bum-kissing you guys (generalisation) seem to go in for.

:p:p:p

[MarkCorrigan]

I think you are attributing far to much importance to it. Very few children "pledge". They tend to stand there and mumble while picking their nose.

Think of it as a vestige. Like the queen.

I would consider it as such had it not been for the massive amount of "You have to be a REAL PATRIOT!!!!" crap your right wing spouts all the time.

[KingMerv00]

I would consider it as such had it not been for the massive amount of "You have to be a REAL PATRIOT!!!!" crap your right wing spouts all the time.

Surely you have your loons too?

[Meadmaker]

Also on my DGAS* list: putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem.

That one's a pet peeve of mine. You put your hand on your heart during the pledge because it's an oath. A hand on the heart signifies pledging. The national anthem is a song, not an oath. Your hand doesn't belong on your heart.

[Iamme]

Weren't kids made to say the Pledge as a way of submitting to authority?

Didn't those 95 year old spinster teachers scare the hell out of you the way it was? Weren't you scared to even have to ask to go tinkle? And then to say the Pledge was a way they could order you, without actually saying they were ordering you, to submit? And by doing so, it would contribute to the atmosphere that our institutions of the gov't, including the public schools, were to be respected?

And I think it worked.

And was this all a bad thing? It was? Can you imagine nothing but liberal hippy types as grade schoolers? - being say liberatarian anarchists or something - acting as the glue for our nation, if our country ever faced a crisis? Isn't a united country a stronger country? Isn't that part of the issue? Ever see animal shows on tv that show smaller or weaker animals standing up together in numbers to fend off lions? Maybe they did not recite a Pledge, but the end result is as if they did. The Pledge is a unifying force, where you put yourself beneath the whole, for the sake of the country.

By including God in the Pledge, and in the context they included God in the Pledge, helps those reciting it to believe God has given favor to our country - making it all the more pallatable to respect and honor all authority in this country, which also could prove beneficial when called to serve, in time of need..

[KingMerv00]

Weren't kids made to say the Pledge as a way of submitting to authority?

Didn't those 95 year old spinster teachers scare the hell out of you the way it was? Weren't you scared to even have to ask to go tinkle? And then to say the Pledge was a way they could order you, without actually saying they were ordering you, to submit? And by doing so, it would contribute to the atmosphere that our institutions of the gov't, including the public schools, were to be respected?

And I think it worked.

You went to Catholic school didn't you? :D

And was this all a bad thing? It was? Can you imagine nothing but liberal hippy types as grade schoolers? - being say liberatarian anarchists or something - acting as the glue for our nation, if our country ever faced a crisis? Isn't a united country a stronger country? Isn't that part of the issue? Ever see animal shows on tv that show smaller or weaker animals standing up together in numbers to fend off lions? Maybe they did not recite a Pledge, but the end result is as if they did. The Pledge is a unifying force, where you put yourself beneath the whole, for the sake of the country.

By including God in the Pledge, and in the context they included God in the Pledge, helps those reciting it to believe God has given favor to our country - making it all the more pallatable to respect and honor all authority in this country, which also could prove beneficial when called to serve, in time of need..

Respect should be earned, not indoctrinated.

[MattusMaximus]

I find it kind of quaint, and a bit sad, that so many U.S. citizens engage in the magical belief that by simply placing the phrase "under God" in the Pledge and "In God We Trust" on our money that it somehow makes us just that much better than everyone else. Of course, the U.S. isn't the only country that engages in such silliness - it's just funny to think that the All-Powerful Creator of the Universe (assuming such a being exists) would be impressed by us putting Its name on our cash...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/774747dc5f01571c1.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11269)

[Iamme]

You went to Catholic school didn't you? :D

No. Public school. Lutheran church. Confirmation class and all that. (Still can't believe I actually memorized all 66 names of the books of the Bible.)



Respect should be earned, not indoctrinated.

Probably so. The trouble is, it might be utopic to believe kids will offer up respect without being encourged, at the least, - or being made to do so. Reciting the Pledge was something that on the surface appeared to be a compromise in that regard, since nobody actually had to order you to do it (with say any form of threat). It was expected of you - and you did it because you, nor anybody else at that time, challenged it - so everyone did it.

BTW - my friend is on the phone right now telling someone how his 54? year old lady friend was beat up by her great-niece today. And so the lady(great aunt) went on a bender, and is now in detox in the hospital. Theres one for you, regarding respect.

[fishbob]

I generally say, "under Obama, the Nigerian". That way I piss everybody off as well as come off as a crank.

:D

I like that. I may have to give it a try.

[MarkCorrigan]

Surely you have your loons too?

Of course, but they don't tend to make up a large number of political commentators and politicians.

[MikeMangum]

Of course, but they don't tend to make up a large number of political commentators and politicians.

I don't know...I've seen coverage of your elections.

31FFTx6AKmU

[CORed]

And on a related note, I don't give a flying fornication if a political candidate has a flag pin on his or her lapel. No one else gives a crap in the (technically) interim years, so why should they in an election year? Also on my DGAS* list: putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem. "He didn't put his hand over his heart" Really? Well neither did you, Tinkerbelle - your heart is in the middle of your chest, not over by your left armpit. What's that? You think it's important? Well, you didn't have your hand on your heart when you said that, so I can't take you seriously, can I?



*Don't Give A S.......

Hey, it's absolutely proven that your left nipple is the seat of your soul. Of course some anatomically challenged people think the heart is directly under the left nipple. :D

[KingMerv00]

Of course, but they don't tend to make up a large number of political commentators and politicians.

How do you know that opinion is not colo(u)red by confirmation bias?

For that matter, how do I know MY opinion is not coloured by confirmation bias?

[Slayhamlet]

How common is it for high school students to be required to recite the pledge nowadays? We stopped doing it in junior high. Last time for me was in the 6th grade when I was 12 years old (1996). I graduated in 2002.

[MarkCorrigan]

How do you know that opinion is not colo(u)red by confirmation bias?

For that matter, how do I know MY opinion is not coloured by confirmation bias?

It could well be, but I remember the adverts for the Bush V Kerry Election, all those many years ago, and I seem to recall that Kerry played up his patriotism and various Republicans tried to put it about that he was using the flag as a tablecloth and the constitution as a napkin while he ate a meal of fried Founding Fathers.

Metaphorically speaking of course. :D

[tensordyne]

What problem do you have with what has been said?

Is it because he thinks the flag is sacred, like those Madonna images in grilled cheese sandwiches? Hey, that is not funny man!

[Saraffina]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".
I do the exact same thing. It pisses me off that we have to say that. The pledge of allegiance is stupid enough without it. It's like swearing on a stack of bibles, pointless

[Malerin]

This.


It's against that whole Constitution thingie. But if you don't care about that, nothing.

:rolleyes:

Easy to avoid saying a few words. Know what would be impressive? Refusing to deal with actual currency because of "In God We Trust".

[applecorped]

I do.

[KingMerv00]

:rolleyes:

Easy to avoid saying a few words. Know what would be impressive? Refusing to deal with actual currency because of "In God We Trust".

Nah. It would be easier to get "In God We Trust" off of money that it would be to live without cash.

I don't feel strongly enough about it to care though.

[Malerin]

I do.

No, you don't!

Do you?

[Piggy]

Just wondering.

I don't, out of principle.;)

I pause when everyone else is saying "under God".

I'm a grown man. I don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[applecorped]

No, you don't!

Do you?


Yes, I do.

[applecorped]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor (or myself) to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

[marplots]

I say it.

But I'm an atheist, so the magical words have no power over me.

I would also be happy to yell out the WalMart chant as long as I was on the clock. Husband your resources and pick your battles wisely.

[Malerin]

Yes, I do.

I admire that.

[applecorped]

Have you ever heard the words to a song and then years later found out the you had mid-heard the lyrics? Well, I'm an atheist and I don't believe in God, but I've known the pledge a certain way my entire life. To self-censor now seems....useless.

[KingMerv00]

applecorped,

You avoid using money because of "In God We Trust"? Seriously?

[applecorped]

??? No, I don't. I also don't avoid saying God in the pledge. Neither bother me.

[Malerin]

??? No, I don't. I also don't avoid saying God in the pledge. Neither bother me.

You had me going. You are truly rotten to the core.

[Upchurch]

You avoid using money because of "In God We Trust"?

I avoid using money, but only because it is inconvenient. Plastic and only transfers are so much easier.

I hadn't thought about it, but that avoids the whole "In God We Trust" mess too. Bonus! :D

[ZirconBlue]

You had me going. You are truly rotten to the core.


I think applecorped's "I do" was in response to the OP, not your post.

[applecorped]

Correct.

[MatildaGage]

imagineaa - Are you still in High School? Not sure where else you would be asked to do this.
lol--not even close

I've been to a number of meetings where it's recited--union, political committees, Rotary Club, etc. (I decided not to join the Rotary because of the fundies and praying, but that's beside the point I guess.)

[MatildaGage]

Well, here I am ~1 yr later.

I've said the pledge 2x this month so far, at a charity event and at a political meeting.

At the latter it dawned on me I was pausing for everyone to say "under God" and then moving along at their pace.

I decided to try saying it at its original pace without pausing for the superimposed theism.

People nearby gave me dirty looks. I'd like to think it's because they were noticing my stand, but probably they just noticed I was off the rhythm.

Onenationindivisible....;)

So I guess I'll go back to the pausing, just to be cooperative.

History (http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/pledge-of-allegiance/)

The constitutionality of inserting “under God” into the Pledge of Allegiance is under litigation....

Historically, on June 26, 2002, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (with jurisdiction over most northwestern states) ruled in his favor that the insertion of “under God” in a government-prescribed pledge was unconstitutional. Circuit Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, a 79-year-old Nixon Court appointee, wrote in the decision: "A profession that we are a nation 'under God' is identical to a profession that we are a nation 'under Jesus,' a nation 'under Vishnu,' a nation 'under Zeus,' or a nation 'under no god.' " The addition of "under God" in the pledge forces schoolchildren to swear allegiance to "monotheism," Goodwin wrote, impermissibly taking a position on the "existence and identity of God." The court decision unleashed a fury of religious protests, including by many in Congress, to their lasting shame.

[I Ratant]

That one's a pet peeve of mine. You put your hand on your heart during the pledge because it's an oath. A hand on the heart signifies pledging. The national anthem is a song, not an oath. Your hand doesn't belong on your heart.
.
Way back when in WWII, we put our right hand on our heart, and extended it towards the flag as we pledged.
Haven't seen that in years.
And I never say "under god".

[I Ratant]

I find it kind of quaint, and a bit sad, that so many U.S. citizens engage in the magical belief that by simply placing the phrase "under God" in the Pledge and "In God We Trust" on our money that it somehow makes us just that much better than everyone else. Of course, the U.S. isn't the only country that engages in such silliness - it's just funny to think that the All-Powerful Creator of the Universe (assuming such a being exists) would be impressed by us putting Its name on our cash...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/774747dc5f01571c1.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11269)
.
And we probably got the wrong name anyway, considering the idiocy of those that put such things as important above common sense.

[I Ratant]

It could well be, but I remember the adverts for the Bush V Kerry Election, all those many years ago, and I seem to recall that Kerry played up his patriotism and various Republicans tried to put it about that he was using the flag as a tablecloth and the constitution as a napkin while he ate a meal of fried Founding Fathers.

Metaphorically speaking of course. :D
.
With a large helping of Mom's Apple Pie.

[I Ratant]

Have you ever heard the words to a song and then years later found out the you had mid-heard the lyrics? Well, I'm an atheist and I don't believe in God, but I've known the pledge a certain way my entire life. To self-censor now seems....useless.
.
In 4th grade, everyone took a turn at the prayer at the start of the day.. Which was the Hail Mary.
I'd never been taught it, but only heard it being recited...
When it got to be my turn, I said "blessed art thou amongst squimmen"... I'd never seen it printed out.

[Arisia]

I keep silent during the 'under God' part... and I was raised Southern Baptist.

[Driftwood]

I do not say "under God" when I recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Of course, I do that so rarely these days, but there it is.

[Cobalt]

Jesus Christ, I haven't had to recite the pledge since...uh...middle school.

[DC]

i would say "above God"

[marplots]

One of the nice things about being an atheist is that I'm immune to magical religious words. I can say "under God," or even blurt out "PRAISE JESUS" if I like.

God and Jesus know I don't mean it anyhow.

[sarge]

I say the "under God" part. I don't care enough about the words to bother remembering to omit them.

For much of my adult life, I was usually prohibited from reciting the Pledge. Soldiers in uniform at official functions may not recite the Pledge of Alliegence - it conflicts with the oath of enlistment.

[Ladewig]

How fortuitous. I wanted to talk about the Pledge but didn't want to start a new thread.

Earlier this year in a 3600-person town in Texas, two school seniors decided they they didn't like the requirement to stand during the pledge and contacted the ACLU to help them remove the school's rule. The school board backed down and at the end of April announced that students are no longer required to stand.

Right-wing talk radio listeners were filled with outrage and disdain at the ACLU (which they think is trying to destroy America) telling a school what to do. Of course, there was no attempt by the right-wing radio host to explain that the ACLU does not have the power to make school do things. All the ACLU did was remind the school that there is a history of appellate and Supreme Court rulings dating back to the 1940's supporting the students' right to not stand.

I was particularly irked by the listeners who told their children to confront the students who were not standing and encourage them to stand during the pledge. Of course, in the U.S., some of the kids not standing would be doing so for religious reasons. I, personally, think defending a students right to worship God in any way he or she chooses is a couple of orders of magnitude more important than making students give the appearance of respect by forcing them to stand during the Pledge. There really were listeners who believed that forcing students to stand would teach them respect for the country.

[kevbo]

I say under law. After all, that is what we are "...one nation, under law..." seeing as how the Constitution is the Law of the Land. I have encouraged my children to say the same. It is true, and you don't have to be silent.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I like the "under law" thing.

I find reciting a pledge of allegiance to a flag objectionable with or without "under God".

[Driftwood]

How fortuitous. I wanted to talk about the Pledge but didn't want to start a new thread.

Earlier this year in a 3600-person town in Texas, two school seniors decided they they didn't like the requirement to stand during the pledge and contacted the ACLU to help them remove the school's rule. The school board backed down and at the end of April announced that students are no longer required to stand.

Right-wing talk radio listeners were filled with outrage and disdain at the ACLU (which they think is trying to destroy America) telling a school what to do. Of course, there was no attempt by the right-wing radio host to explain that the ACLU does not have the power to make school do things. All the ACLU did was remind the school that there is a history of appellate and Supreme Court rulings dating back to the 1940's supporting the students' right to not stand.

I was particularly irked by the listeners who told their children to confront the students who were not standing and encourage them to stand during the pledge. Of course, in the U.S., some of the kids not standing would be doing so for religious reasons. I, personally, think defending a students right to worship God in any way he or she chooses is a couple of orders of magnitude more important than making students give the appearance of respect by forcing them to stand during the Pledge. There really were listeners who believed that forcing students to stand would teach them respect for the country.

Yep, and in doing so, they disrespect the founding principles on which this country is based. It's amazing that in a person's super patriotism, they eschew real patriotism for a false, idealized version.

[Darth Rotor]

Soldiers in uniform at official functions may not recite the Pledge of Alliegence - it conflicts with the oath of enlistment.

sarge, could you explain that bit to me, please? :confused:

[JoeTheJuggler]

You avoid using money because of "In God We Trust"? Seriously?

I know this wasn't what you were driving at, but it reminds me of an evangelical claiming that we're a Christian nation, in part, because we traditionally reckon our years B.C. and A.D. It follows as much that we're a nation that believes in Norse and Roman gods because the days of the week are named for them.

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm a grown man. I don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

What does being a 'grown man' have to do with it ?

FWIW, I am in a position to recite the pledge on a fairly regular basis (children in scouting) and I omit 'under god.'

[TragicMonkey]

Two observations:

1. Nobody on earth notices what you're actually saying if you're making "jazz hands" while reciting. Trust me on this.

2. In high school I didn't say the Pledge, but I always stood very respectfully out of respect and because I sat behind Jake Markey, who had the firmest and perkiest buttocks a career in high school wrestling can provide. Patriotism, and respect for our fellow Americans, and most of all respect for a damn fine ass. That's what America's all about.

[sarge]

sarge, could you explain that bit to me, please? :confused:

Certainly.

At one point in my career, I was a Sergeant Major for a Training Support Brigade, working in support of Basic Training and Advanced Individual Training (MOS producing schools) at Fort Jackson. One of the Battalions in my Brigade was responsible for running a short-term attitude adjustment program for mal-adjusted trainees. If they successfully completed this program, they re-joined basic training. If not, they were chaptered out of service.

At the "graduation" ceremony for this program, the trainees recited the Pledge of Alliegance - until a JAG officer sent me a note describing the regulatory prohibition against uniformed service members reciting the Pledge of Alliegance in uniform as part of official functions.

I thought it a non-sense rule, or possibly a mis-interpretation by an over-zealous lawyer. After doing my own research, I determined I was mistaken. the rule was exactly as the JAG officer presented it. the actual text from the Army Reg that parallels the DoD Reg, that parallels the US Code is:

Soldiers may recite the Pledge of Allegiance as noted below in accordance with Section 4, Title 4, United States Code (4 USC 4):

During military ceremonies, soldiers will not recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

At official functions, social events, and sporting events, soldiers should:

When in uniform, outdoors, stand at attention, remain silent, face the flag, and render the hand salute.

When in uniform, indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag.

When in civilian attire, stand at attention, face the flag with the right hand over the heart and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Headgear should be removed with the right hand and held over the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.

I recall the rationale for the prohibition being a conflict with the oath of enlistments pledge to S&D the Constitution.

[shadron]

Pledge? Gods, is it that time of the year again already?

[Drysdale]

Yep

[JoeTheJuggler]

I recall the rationale for the prohibition being a conflict with the oath of enlistments pledge to S&D the Constitution.

I think that's the part that wants further explanation. What conflict?

Also, I don't get why if that is the rationale that it's OK for a soldier to recite it while not uniformed.

ETA: I rather think it's merely a matter of decorum. When a soldier stands at attention and salutes, aren't they not supposed to speak unless asked to by a superior officer?

[sarge]

I think that's the part that wants further explanation. What conflict?

I would be guessing as to the rationale - but the reason (IIRC) was explicitly stated in the Field Manual that described the proper protocol to follow.

Also, I don't get why if that is the rationale that it's OK for a soldier to recite it while not uniformed.

I agree. That doesn't seem to make sense.

ETA: I rather think it's merely a matter of decorum. When a soldier stands at attention and salutes, aren't they not supposed to speak unless asked to by a superior officer?

That would be a simple, easily understood answer, except it isn't posible for that to be the entire source of the prohibition.

The prohibition extends to all military ceremonies, and Soldiers neither stand at attention nor salute during all ceremonies, nor during entire ceremonies that include those actions. It would be a very simple matter to craft a ceremony that included a recitation of the Pledge but did not require Soldiers to simultaniously render the hand Salute or stand at attention - except that those are the prescribed actions for when the Pledge is recited.

Indeed, if a sense of propriety WRT the position of attention were the source of the prohibition, we'd need merely to have the person in charge of the formation direct the formation to recite the pledge. Persons in uniform, in formation, and at the position of attention speak often, and properly. They even sing in such circumstances. When the Army Song (or the official song of the unit that is on parade) is played during a ceremony, the proper response is to stand at attention and sing.

It is possible that there is no logical basis for the prohibition. It is reasonably certain that the general prohibition against speaking while at the POA isn't the basis.




ETA: It is possible that the only reason the military performs the Pledge in the way that it does is because US Law says so. I read 4 USC 4 and it requires persons in uniform to stand at attention, remain silent, and render the hand salute. It does not prohibit Soldiers from reciting the pledge during ceremonies, however - an additional prohibition the Army (at least) seems to have added.

[JoeTheJuggler]

That would be a simple, easily understood answer, except it isn't posible for that to be the entire source of the prohibition.

The prohibition extends to all military ceremonies, and Soldiers neither stand at attention nor salute during all ceremonies, nor during entire ceremonies that include those actions.

Whenever the Pledge of Allegiance is being recited they do.

ETA:
ETA: It is possible that the only reason the military performs the Pledge in the way that it does is because US Law says so. I read 4 USC 4 and it requires persons in uniform to stand at attention, remain silent, and render the hand salute. It does not prohibit Soldiers from reciting the pledge during ceremonies, however - an additional prohibition the Army (at least) seems to have added.
It says they are to remain silent, pretty much exactly what the military code you quoted says.

§ 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”, should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

[sarge]

Whenever the Pledge of Allegiance is being recited they do.

Yes- but only because the reg (and US code) says so. In many other circumstances, Soldiers at the POA are required to speak. It is unlikely that it is not a breach of decorum to sing a song while at the POA, but is a breach of decorum to recite the Pledge at the POA.

ETA:

It says they are to remain silent, pretty much exactly what the military code you quoted says.

Only for persons in uniform. All military persons that are at (or even participating in) a ceremony are not necessarily in uniform.


My point is this:

Military decorum does not prohibit speaking while at the POA, nor does it prohibit recitations during ceremonies. It is unlikely that the primary reason for the prohibition against reciting the pledge while in uniform is to protect a sense of decorum while at the POA. That wouldn't make sense - not that military rules always make sense.

[JoeTheJuggler]

It is unlikely that the primary reason for the prohibition against reciting the pledge while in uniform is to protect a sense of decorum while at the POA. That wouldn't make sense - not that military rules always make sense.

I disagree. There is a difference between barking out responses at attention or singing at attention, and reciting the Pledge along with non-uniformed people.

I certainly think decorum is more likely the reason than some notion of a conflict with military oaths. It's just like the other flag rules in that what constitutes proper respect is pretty arbitrary. (Like does it really matter whether or not the blue star field is in the upper right or upper left when a flag is hung vertically?)

[JoeTheJuggler]

Military decorum does not prohibit speaking while at the POA,

You mean while at attention, don't you? You've cited the military and civil codes that specifically say they are to remain silent during the POA, so yes, it does specifically prohibit speaking during the POA.

[sarge]

I disagree. There is a difference between barking out responses at attention or singing at attention, and reciting the Pledge along with non-uniformed people.

It is no less a departure from decorum to recite the Pledge than to sing the "All American Soldier" while at attention. No difference at all.

I certainly think decorum is more likely the reason than some notion of a conflict with military oaths. It's just like the other flag rules in that what constitutes proper respect is pretty arbitrary. (Like does it really matter whether or not the blue star field is in the upper right or upper left when a flag is hung vertically?)

If decorum was the reason for the rule, then the rule is illogical - as there are already far less dignified actions require of Soldiers at attention than reciting the Pledge. As I have already allowed, the military has so many rules that not only are they not always logical, they sometimes directly conflict with each other.

[sarge]

You mean while at attention, don't you? You've cited the military and civil codes that specifically say they are to remain silent during the POA, so yes, it does specifically prohibit speaking during the POA.


POA means "position of attention", not Pledge of Allegience.

[Bikewer]

I haven't been anywhere where anyone recited "the pledge" since grade school. Just as when the National Anthem plays.... I'd shut up.

[JoeTheJuggler]

It is no less a departure from decorum to recite the Pledge than to sing the "All American Soldier" while at attention.

Except that there are regulations against the one and not the other.

Again, these details of decorum--especially wrt treatment of the flag--are fairly arbitrary. It's like any other system of etiquette.

At any rate, I find decorum a MUCH more likely explanation than a conflict with military oaths.

[sarge]

Except that there are regulations against the one and not the other.

Again, these details of decorum--especially wrt treatment of the flag--are fairly arbitrary. It's like any other system of etiquette.

Fair enough.

At any rate, I find decorum a MUCH more likely explanation than a conflict with military oaths.

Also fair enough - except that there is no rational basis for the decorum argument. As long as far less solemn, less circumspect activites are not only allowed, but are required under the same circumstance that the Pledge is prohibited, there is no likelyhood that preservation of decorum was the basis for the prohibition. There may (or may not) be a rational basis for the "conflict of oaths" argument. I didn't make the argument, I merely reported its existence - and that something written by the Army reports that as the reason for the prohibition.

[MatildaGage]

.
Way back when in WWII, we put our right hand on our heart, and extended it towards the flag as we pledged.
Haven't seen that in years.
And I never say "under god".
Like this? ;)
http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/4176501/en/fixed/225/176/Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_American_flag_ with_the_Bellamy_salute.jpg?format=jpg

[Dorian Gray]

I don't have a problem with people saying 'under God', considering that in America, God is money. Why do you think "In God We Trust" is printed on money, anyway?

But for me personally, I don't say the pledge. Why would I give allegiance to a piece of cloth? That sounds really stupid. I know it goes on to mention the republic the bit of cloth stands for, but that republic certainly is not 'indivisible'. And liberty and justice is not for all, what with gays not being allowed to get married, to name but one way in which liberty and justice is not for all.

There really isn't a part of the pledge that makes a damn bit of sense, is my point.

[Driftwood]

^ Good point, Dorian.

[The Nimble Pianist]

Yes, I say "under God" when reciting the Pledge. I just don't care enough to make a principled point otherwise.