JP Morgan Silver Manipulation Civil and Criminal Probes Launched

[CriticalFunker]

Nothing behind this curtain. Just move away from that machine,citizen. This machine is too complex for you to be able to fathom,citizen. You know somehow that seems... what's the word? Ah yes, dubious.

It's amazing how so many rush to defend these typical financial warlocks. These firms have been sipping the Derivatives Kool Aid for some time now in the backroom. It's a bit strong and punchy now mixed in with some delusion and narcissism :D That's never a good chemistry.

NY Post isn't a reputable news source, but I think the whistleblower did his homework. I am shocked to see that there are signs of manipulations going on! It's amazing what a high powered cabal of lawyers and red tape will get you. It almost makes you want to start a firm..........almost. Of course there won't be any real investigation, but I think it's good to see this action taking place.

On the flip side, if JP Morgan was a lone public citizen and lived down the street with a pick up truck in the driveway, he would probably be in state prison cracking rocks for his silver scheme,just saying.

I dedicate this song to JP Morgan:

"Well, I've got to run to keep from hidin',
And I'm bound to keep on ridin'.
And I've got one more silver dollar,
But I'm not gonna let 'em catch me, no,
Not gonna let 'em catch the Midnight Rider."


from:
http://tinyurl.com/29qk47c

Federal agents have launched parallel criminal and civil probes of JPMorgan Chase and its trading activity in the precious metals market, The Post has learned.

The probes are centering on whether or not JPMorgan, a top derivatives holder in precious metals, acted improperly to depress the price of silver, sources said.

The Commodities Futures Trade Commission is looking into civil charges, and the Department of Justice's Antitrust Division is handling the criminal probe, according to sources, who did not wish to be identified due to the sensitive nature of the information.

The probes are far-ranging, with federal officials looking into JPMorgan's precious metals trades on the London Bullion Market Association's (LBMA) exchange, which is a physical delivery market, and the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex) for future paper derivative trades.

JPMorgan increased its silver derivative holdings by $6.76 billion, or about 220 million ounces, during the last three months of 2009, according to the Office of Comptroller of the Currency.

Regulators are pulling trading tickets on JPMorgan's precious metals moves on all the exchanges as part of the probe, sources tell The Post.

JPMorgan has not been charged with any wrongdoing.

The DOJ and CFTC each declined to comment, as did JPMorgan.

The investigations stem from a story in The Post, which reported on a whistleblower questioning JPMorgan's involvement in suppressing the price of silver by "shorting" the precious metal around the release of news announcements that should have sent the price upwards.

It is alleged that in shorting silver, JPMorgan sells large blocks of silver option contracts or physical metal -- actions that would bring down the price of the metal -- closely following news that would otherwise move the metals higher.

Last week, The Post got a telling e-mail the Justice Dept. sent to a concerned investor. "Thank you for your e-mail regarding allegations that JPMorgan Chase, and perhaps other traders, are manipulating the silver futures market," the e-mail read.

Telling, indeed, as the concerned investor, in an e-mail to Justice's Anti-trust division, never mentioned any companies or traders.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Who do JP Morgan think they are? The Hunt Brothers?

See Silver_Thursday. ;)

[CriticalFunker]

Who do JP Morgan think they are? The Hunt Brothers?

See Silver_Thursday. ;)

You know what is funny, if that story started unraveling today, we would have JREF members making tin foil emoticons to that Hunt Brothers story. (Don't lie and say it wouldn't happen,comrades) It's good to put things into perspective. :cool:. Someone always wants to kick silver in the teeth,imagine that. :D But it's a free market and it's on a fair playing field for everyone. :rolleyes:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

tl;dr

[CriticalFunker]

tl;dr

Here is your summary:

The JP Morgan Wizards have a slight problem with credibility when it comes to Silver. The probe centers around whether JP Morgan acted improperly to depress the price of Silver. Im putting on my Amazing Kreskin Robes ,peering into the future saying "Yes, I think that's a possibility that this is occurring"

[timhau]

Well, it's good that we have your supreme intelligence working for the common good, instead of the World-Dominating Banking Cabal.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Who do JP Morgan think they are? The Hunt Brothers?

See Silver_Thursday. ;)It doesn't take long for history to fade, people to again believe in the fantasy that the free market is self regulating, and another story of corruption and greed emerges.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It doesn't take long for history to fade, people to again believe in the fantasy that the free market is self regulating, and another story of corruption and greed emerges.

:s2:

[CriticalFunker]

Well, it's good that we have your supreme intelligence working for the common good, instead of the World-Dominating Banking Cabal.

What's amazing to me is, I didn't mention a world dominating banking cabal. I don't believe in that notion at all,fyi. I don't think you are following the guidelines by being disrespectful with someone you disagree with. I think part of the guidelines of JRef is to be civil and polite to other members.

Am I wrong? Let me check... Yep... I think civil and polite was part of the agreement. And then there is this jewel: 12. “Address the argument, not the arguer." Having your opinion, claim or argument challenged, doubted or dismissed is not attacking the arguer"

I just dont think you followed the guidelines on this particular comment at this forum.

[CriticalFunker]

:s2:


Here's a question. Where is it in the guidelines to be disrespectful and rude to people? I don't remember reading that one. I understand why you do it, I just don't understand why you get a pass for it. What makes you special and above the fray? Maybe someone in this community can clear that up for me. I don't think anyone is asking to be treated in a rude fashion. I think respect to others is the least we can ask for. Yet you can't even manage that.

[CriticalFunker]

It doesn't take long for history to fade, people to again believe in the fantasy that the free market is self regulating, and another story of corruption and greed emerges.

Reminds me of a scene from Hudsucker Proxy. Anyone got a Hula Hoop? We can turn it all around! :D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Here's a question. Where is it in the guidelines to be disrespectful and rude to people? I don't remember reading that one. I understand why you do it, I just don't understand why you get a pass for it. What makes you special and above the fray? Maybe someone in this community can clear that up for me. I don't think anyone is asking to be treated in a rude fashion. I think respect to others is the least we can ask for. Yet you can't even manage that.

Your concern is noted.

[theprestige]

Isn't the whole point of being J. P. Morgan metals traders that you decide for yourself when to buy and sell metals?

I mean, if the government is just going to roll up and say "we think the right move was to buy, and maybe disagreeing with us is a crime", why bother being traders at all?

For that matter, why not just have the government pick all the trades?

[CriticalFunker]

Isn't the whole point of being J. P. Morgan metals traders that you decide for yourself when to buy and sell metals?

I mean, if the government is just going to roll up and say "we think the right move was to buy, and maybe disagreeing with us is a crime", why bother being traders at all?

For that matter, why not just have the government pick all the trades?

I respectfully disagree with this. It's healthy to not be timid if you see fraud taking place. Time will tell in the end.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Isn't the whole point of being J. P. Morgan metals traders that you decide for yourself when to buy and sell metals?

I mean, if the government is just going to roll up and say "we think the right move was to buy, and maybe disagreeing with us is a crime", why bother being traders at all?

For that matter, why not just have the government pick all the trades?

People/organizations have, in the past, tried to corner the market in various stocks/commodities/etc. Off the top of my head, I can't recall when one of these attempts have succeeded (although I suspect some have, even to a limited degree). Generally, these attempts eventually collapse under their own weight (see the Hunt Brothers example above).

[theprestige]

I respectfully disagree with this. It's healthy to not be timid if you see fraud taking place. Time will tell in the end.
What fraud?

How is it fraudulent to choose not to sell a commodity that you possess?

[MikeMangum]

I respectfully disagree with this. It's healthy to not be timid if you see fraud taking place. Time will tell in the end.

What fraud? There is no fraud even alleged. The allegation is that JPMC sold something they owned, namely silver. The timing of those sales, and the motivation behind the timing, is the basis of the allegations.

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand what the fuss is about.

[YoPopa]

What fraud? There is no fraud even alleged. The allegation is that JPMC sold something they owned, namely silver. The timing of those sales, and the motivation behind the timing, is the basis of the allegations.

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand what the fuss is about.

One possibility, IMHO, is that JPMC was selling something they owned, at a reduced price, to themselves or selling it to someone with whom they were colluding.

An equal possibility is that there was no wrong doing. The political powers now in charge wish to throw as much mud as possible at Wall Street. This takes the blame for our financial problems off of the politicians and helps create a political atmosphere where they can pass new regulations against the evil traders.

[Frank Newgent]

:s2:


The market is always right. See Strong Form EMH.

In strong-form efficiency, share prices reflect all information, public and private, and no one can earn excess returns. If there are legal barriers to private information becoming public, as with insider trading laws, strong-form efficiency is impossible, except in the case where the laws are universally ignored. To test for strong-form efficiency, a market needs to exist where investors cannot consistently earn excess returns over a long period of time. Even if some money managers are consistently observed to beat the market, no refutation even of strong-form efficiency follows: with hundreds of thousands of fund managers worldwide, even a normal distribution of returns (as efficiency predicts) should be expected to produce a few dozen "star" performers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The market is always right. See Strong Form EMH.

LOL! Good one!

[Frank Newgent]

LOL! Good one!


If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.

What have you seen?

[Almo]

People/organizations have, in the past, tried to corner the market in various stocks/commodities/etc. Off the top of my head, I can't recall when one of these attempts have succeeded (although I suspect some have, even to a limited degree). Generally, these attempts eventually collapse under their own weight (see the Hunt Brothers example above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_%281869%29

This one failed because the government took action. Was probably a smart move on the part of Grant.

[Frank Newgent]

What have you seen?


I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Risk-free profit collateralizing the bond
defaults of Paulson. I've seen markets remain irrational far longer than you or I can
remain solvent. All those bonds will be priced subprime like Sears in yuan. Time to buy...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/6754beb2d3379db4.gif


... gold

[theprestige]

... and no one can earn excess returns.
Frank, I'm curious: What would you characterize as "excess returns"?

[Frank Newgent]

Frank, I'm curious: What would you characterize as "excess returns"?


Making more money than I would using anything The Central Scrutinizer does :D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Time to buy...

... gold

Ummm....no.

If you don't mind, I prefer much better returns. Those which are positive, for starters.

[CriticalFunker]

What fraud?

How is it fraudulent to choose not to sell a commodity that you possess?

I think you are nitpicking a bit. Do you think that a investigation would be opened if they got a wacko email from a Silver Bug? I don't think so. I think it's a legit concern. There probably is fraud involved. It's healthy to have investigations like this, you may disagree with them. But investigations are what keep us partly sane as a country. Will there be duds? Of course, but we can't just shrug it off and say "I know nothing I see nothing " like Schultz from Hogan's Heroes. That's not what we need to do as citizens. That's what im getting at.

[theprestige]

I think you are nitpicking a bit.
You're the one who said "t's healthy to not be timid if you see fraud taking place."

I don't think it's nitpicking at all to ask you what fraud you see taking place.

I also don't think it's nitpicking at all to ask you what fraud there is in choosing when to sell a commodity you own, at a time of your choosing and a price of your choosing.

Either you understand where there is potential for fraud in J.P. Morgan's silver trades, or you do not. If you [I]do understand, please explain it to me, so I can understand as well. If you do not understand, kindly stop complaining about nitpicking, admit you have no better understanding than I do, and leave it at that.

Either you know enough about the situation to believe that a fraud investigation is justified, or you do not. If you do know, please share your knowledge with me, so that I may reach the same informed conclusion. If you do not know, kindly stop complaining about nitpicking, admit you have no more knowledge than I do, and leave it at that.

Do you think that a investigation would be opened if they got a wacko email from a Silver Bug? I don't think so.
Straw man. I don't think you know any better than I do what triggered the investigation.

I think it's a legit concern. There probably is fraud involved.
"Probably"? Why "probably"? What makes it likely, in your mind? The fact there's an investigation?

It's healthy to have investigations like this, you may disagree with them. But investigations are what keep us partly sane as a country. Will there be duds? Of course,
Ah, but apparently you believe investigations aren't automatically evidence of wrongdoing. In fact, if I understand you correctly, you'd be in favor of investigating J. P. Morgan without any evidence at all, "just to be safe".

but we can't just shrug it off and say "I know nothing I see nothing " like Schultz from Hogan's Heroes. That's not what we need to do as citizens. That's what im getting at.
So, citizen, do you know something, or not? Do you see something, or not?

Or are you just supposing, based on the fact that an investigation has been launched, that your scapegoat du jour probably deserves it, and even if they don't they should be investigated anyway, just to be safe?

[Frank Newgent]

I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Risk-free profit collateralizing the bond
defaults of Paulson. I've seen markets remain irrational far longer than you or I can
remain solvent. All those bonds will be priced subprime like Sears in yuan. Time to buy...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/6754beb2d3379db4.gif


... gold


Ummm....no.

If you don't mind, I prefer much better returns. Those which are positive, for starters.


Roy Batty sez: oh, well. The DOW-Gold ratio is 8.72... downtrend continues.

http://kirklindstrom.blogspot.com/2010/03/2010-dow-gold-ratio-djia-gld.html

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Roy Batty sez: oh, well. The DOW-Gold ratio is 8.72... downtrend continues.

http://kirklindstrom.blogspot.com/2010/03/2010-dow-gold-ratio-djia-gld.html

Is that good?

[Frank Newgent]

Is that good?


Questions meant to elicit an emotional response don't work on Roy Batty.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Questions meant to elicit an emotional response don't work on Roy Batty.

I have no idea who he is.

[Frank Newgent]

I have no idea who he is.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Blade_Runner_characters

[Malerin]

Questions meant to elicit an emotional response don't work on Roy Batty.

Let me tell you about my mother...