PDA

View Full Version : Finding proof vs. presenting proof


DialecticMaterialist
30th January 2004, 03:40 AM
Which do people here think is more reasonable during the course of a debate, more specifically an online debate. That the person making the claim present their evidence for the said claim, by some normal means like giving a link, quoting a source, etc?


Or that the person not making the claim research into whether another's claim was true or relevant?

To many the former inability to comply can sound like their setting up a "wild goose chase", to the latter inability to comply may sound like "not doing one's homework."

I personally lean more towards the former category, that of people presenting proof. This is of course for reasons stemming from informal logic (it is technically proof surrogate to claim you have evidence and not present it),

Proof surrogate. This type of slanter works by alleging that proof for a claim exists without actually offering the proof.

http://www.mhhe.com/mayfieldpub/ct/ch04/glossary.htm




And due to practical considerations. Namely, its pretty easy for one person to present their evidence, but it can be tedious for another person to research all available evidence on a subject until one finds the relevant piece of information.


Also the first system is far easier to cheat. It is easy to evaluate someone's evidence presented on the spot.

For the second method though, one has to somehow prove that the evidence "doesn't exist" and "is not relevant". A rather taxing, sometimes impossible task. Allowing people to make up stuff almost endlessly and counter with "look it up", "research it", "do your homework" ad infinitum.

My position on this is not absolute of course. Everyone should come in with some basic knowledge of the subject, that which is obvious of course. And sometimes subjects are simply too difficult to prove completely in the course of one thread or conversation, like evolution (though imo, one should always be willing to prove as much of it as possible within reason). To all of this though one should always I believe offer a little proof, or a step in the right direction-such as directing a creationist to talk origins.org or a site explaining the basic material as a matter of charity and to, hopefully, remove honest doubt.

Of course measuring what is a "complex issue" or "basic knowledge" isn't exactly a science, so confusion and honest disagreement arises I imagine.


What would be everyone else's opinion on this matter? Should the person finding the claim usually present their proof, or should the person evaluating the claim have to find the evidence/ do research?

Which way do you lean towards, and what should be done in ambiguous cases?

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
30th January 2004, 05:08 AM
The person making the claim should present the evidence. Then, if another person makes a counterclaim, he should present his evidence.

However, the claimant can simply summarize the evidence and give a link. As long as the target document isn't a 100-page thesis, the other participants should make an effort to read all or part of it.

If a participant willfully refuses to read the cited paper (*ciouaghn*), then the rest of the participants can blow him off.

~~ Paul

Upchurch
30th January 2004, 11:52 AM
I agree with Paul. It's the only reasonable way to have a debate.

Speaking of which, I'm taking a philosophy class this semester and let me tell ya, I enjoy online discussions so much more. After being on here for so long, its really frustrating to have to wait my turn to speak, assuming the discussion ever gets to me before absolutely changing subjects. Plus, you have to present a response or idea in as brief of terms as possible. Online boards have their drawbacks, but I really prefer it in so many ways.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
30th January 2004, 12:25 PM
Upchurch, try wedging in the idea that ontology is meaningless and see what happens. I'm just interested. :p

~~ Paul

Upchurch
30th January 2004, 12:32 PM
Thanks, no. I am trying to get a decent grade out of this class.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
30th January 2004, 01:08 PM
Okay then, how about a paper on the meaninglessness of free will?

~~ Paul

Upchurch
30th January 2004, 01:15 PM
I'm not really sure that's relevent in a computer ethics class, but I'll keep that in mind. If I can figure a way to work it in, I'll post it.

DialecticMaterialist
31st January 2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
I agree with Paul. It's the only reasonable way to have a debate.

Speaking of which, I'm taking a philosophy class this semester and let me tell ya, I enjoy online discussions so much more. After being on here for so long, its really frustrating to have to wait my turn to speak, assuming the discussion ever gets to me before absolutely changing subjects. Plus, you have to present a response or idea in as brief of terms as possible. Online boards have their drawbacks, but I really prefer it in so many ways.

I have to agree. In class or in person, often times you get only mere sound bites, and can't verify a lot of evidence like you can online with a link.


Often times then, the winner is not who has the most evidence but who is the most charismatic and atriculate.

Also you get to think more before typing.


I still like real life debates though, just cause it helps satisfy the social component, and I can express some things in person that I can't online.