Prahlad Jani - Breatharian

[Ririon]

Randi offers the challenge to the Indian breatharian, May 13, 2010:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/986-james-randi-speaks-powered-by-sunlight-.html

Hardly an exciting change, but at least the challenge is alive and not in total hibernation.

[rjh01]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html


IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

[Ririon]

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.
Randi can bend (among other things) rules. If my memory serves me right, he has made exceptions and one-time-only rule changes before. But only in cases where he himself goes out and publicly challenges a specific individual/product/company. People applying on their own initiative can not expect any such special treatment.

[chillzero]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.
:rolleyes:
"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

[MattC]

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

I presume we're discussing the fellow this article talks about? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7645857/Man-claims-to-have-had-no-food-or-drink-for-70-years.html

I think any serious attempt to discuss the fellow's claims in re MDC is made much more complex by his invocation of a "goddess who pours an 'elixir' down his palate." He does possess some goats, however, which may give him an advantage.

[rjh01]

Something is very wrong. See this page http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

2.4 Why do you reject claims that might cause injury?

Because the JREF doesn’t want anyone to get hurt or die, for both legal and humanitarian reasons. The JREF will not condone or support any claim where injury may occur. We don’t even want you to try it at home first.

For example, if you claim you can jump off a ten story building and survive, the JREF is not going to test you at it because people jumping off buildings doesn’t normally end well.

If JREF tests this person then they will be taking a huge risk for the reasons specified.

Though this is one case where they could be justified in throwing the rule book out and say 'Come up with a pass / fail test and we will put the $1m up.' The reason is that the case has attracted world wide publicity. It was even in my local paper the other day. I am sure many others here can say the same.

But did Mr Randi say "The $1m" or "A $1m"? Big difference.

JREF will not test this claim. One or both sides are conducting a huge bluff. I predict there will be no new developments. The case will not appear in any good scientific journal. There will be no serious negotiations between the two parties. James Randi will not be able to generate anything like the publicity that this breatharian has generated.


Edit. MattC is 100% correct above.

[Gr8wight]

I believe Mr. Randi is banking on the fact that the Indian gentleman in question will never agree to a test - in fact, he will likely not ever even acknowledge the offer - because he is a fake, and Randi knows he's a fake, and he knows that Randi knows, and Randi knows that he knows that Randi knows that he...

You know.

[Akhenaten]

Something is very wrong. See this page http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/component/content/article/37-static/254-jref-challenge-faq.html

2.4 Why do you reject claims that might cause injury?

Because the JREF doesn’t want anyone to get hurt or die, for both legal and humanitarian reasons. The JREF will not condone or support any claim where injury may occur. We don’t even want you to try it at home first.

For example, if you claim you can jump off a ten story building and survive, the JREF is not going to test you at it because people jumping off buildings doesn’t normally end well.




If JREF tests this person then they will be taking a huge risk for the reasons specified.





He's going to throw himself off a building? Where did you read that?

Are you sure you're talking about the right bloke?



Though this is one case where they could be justified in throwing the rule book out and say 'Come up with a pass / fail test and we will put the $1m up.'






Google 'James Randi', rjh, and see if you can figure out his relationship to the JREF and the the MDC and then explain what your non-existant rule book has to do with it all.



The reason is that the case has attracted world wide publicity. It was even in my local paper the other day. I am sure many others here can say the same.





Do you seriously think that making it into your local paper is a criterion for issuing Million Dollar Challenges? You should offer you own prize, perhaps.



But did Mr Randi say "The $1m" or "A $1m"? Big difference.





What the Dickens are you talking about?



JREF will not test this claim. One or both sides are conducting a huge bluff. I predict there will be no new developments. The case will not appear in any good scientific journal. There will be no serious negotiations between the two parties.





Are you a spokesman for the JREF now?



James Randi will not be able to generate anything like the publicity that this breatharian has generated.





WHAT??????????????




<snip>

He does possess some goats, however, which may give him an advantage.






Edit. MattC is 100% correct above.





Please explain.

[rjh01]

<snip>
None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.

[Ririon]

None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.
Nor are the last few posts directly relevant to the OP. There are plenty of threads for discussing this specific (and not very remarkable) case. I suggest moving (the remainder of) this discussion to one of those threads.

[Cuddles]

Something is very wrong.

No, nothing is wrong at all. The JREF has tested breatharians before and will likely do so again. As has already been explained to you, the JREF are allowed to offer the challenge to anyone they like. The rules for applying for the challenge only apply to people who choose to apply, not to people the JREF specifically offers it to.

JREF will not test this claim.

Well obviously there won't actually be a test because this guy isn't going to be stupid enough to undergo a real test with actual controls. However, the JREF are clearly perfectly willing to test this claim.

[Akhenaten]

None of this post contains any intelligent comment requiring any specific response.





Then forget about it, as I almost had myself, and respond to this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5932222#post5932222) of chillzero's instead.

[rjh01]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

:rolleyes:
"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

These two posts do not contradict each other. No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong. Just watched the video again. James Randi does say the following (starting at the 3:07 mark)
As always I am willing to be prepared to go to India myself to test this claim. But strangely enough I haven't received an invitation. I wonder why? And Hey, as soon as the man proves his claim, he gets the JREF million dollar prize.

This means that the man would still need to apply. It is not an offer to by pass the application (sorry Cuddles in post 11). There is no offer to even bend the rules in any way. So the discussion on this point is academic.


The man if he wants to apply for the MDC will need to specify this
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

Everything else depends on the man being able to do this. Without it there can be no test. I mean what was the result of the recent test? Sure he was alive after the test, but did he pass the test? What was the criteria for passing the test?

[Akhenaten]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

:rolleyes:
"11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization."

"This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). "
Randi can invite others or waive some of the requirements if he sees fit - and has done before now (e.g. Sylvia Browne requires no signed academic witness statements, etc).

If you are going to try and tell Randi that he is wrong about his own challenge, you aren't going to get far.

These two posts do not contradict each other.





Except that your post claims erroneously that the JREF will have to bend the rules and chillzero's post quite rightly points out that Mr Randi isn't bound by the rules.

You might be right in pointing out that the two posts don't contradict each other, but only in that the first, which is wrong, is contradicted by the second, which is correct. The first post merely contradicts reality, rather than chillzero.



No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong. Just watched the video again. James Randi does say the following (starting at the 3:07 mark)
As always I am willing to be prepared to go to India myself to test this claim. But strangely enough I haven't received an invitation. I wonder why? And Hey, as soon as the man proves his claim, he gets the JREF million dollar prize.

This means that the man would still need to apply. It is not an offer to by pass the application (sorry Cuddles in post 11).





It means no such thing, rjh01. You appear to have changed tactics from trying to point out that Randi is wrong to trying to put words in his mouth. It's just as much a losing tactic, and I don't think Cuddles will mind, at least on a personal level. It's kind of embarrassing for everyone, but it would be better to just stop, rather than digging a deeper hole and then shouting apologies from its depths.



There is no offer to even bend the rules in any way. So the discussion on this point is academic.





There is no need for the rules to be bent, and the idea of an offer to do so is meaningless. As has been explained to you, Mr Randi is not bound by the rules.

Discussion on this point is not academic at all, it's flogging a dead horse.



The man if he wants to apply for the MDC will need to specify this
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html





The man does not have to apply for the MDC. No matter how many times you say that he does, it will not become true.



Everything else depends on the man being able to do this. Without it there can be no test. I mean what was the result of the recent test? Sure he was alive after the test, but did he pass the test? What was the criteria for passing the test?





What recent test?

[rjh01]

Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m? Unless you can provide a answer that is unambiguous then the whole thread is nothing but an embarrassment to us all. I cannot see such an explicit offer in the video.

It is your case that he does not have to apply, not mine.

'Test', sorry I said the wrong word. Meant 'study'. The one mentioned in the OP.

[Akhenaten]

Please see this section (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=69887), 'Guide to a post', for help on using the quote function.



Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m?





How do you interpret the following, rjh01, which is a transcript of the video commencing at the 3:06 mark?


Folks, get real.

As always I'm willing and prepared to go to India, myself, to test this claim, but strangely enough, I haven't received an invitation.

I wonder why.

And hey, as soon as the man proves his claim he gets the JREF million dollar prize, but search as I may, I cannot seem to find that invitation.





Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.



Unless you can provide a answer that is unambiguous then the whole thread is nothing but an embarrassment to us all.





Oh, puh-lease. Are these histrionics necessary?



I cannot see such an explicit offer in the video.





Pay closer attention.



It is your case that he does not have to apply, not mine.





Whose? The lack of quotes is causing a lot of ambiguity in your post, I'm afraid.



'Test', sorry I said the wrong word. Meant 'study'. The one mentioned in the OP.





One can only respond to what's been posted, not to the poster's intent. I hope you can learn to understand this limitation.

[rjh01]

<snip>


Where in the video or elsewhere is any statement by Mr Randi saying the man does not have to apply to be tested for the MDC and eligible for the $1m?





How do you interpret the following, rjh01, which is a transcript of the video commencing at the 3:06 mark?


Folks, get real.

As always I'm willing and prepared to go to India, myself, to test this claim, but strangely enough, I haven't received an invitation.

I wonder why.

And hey, as soon as the man proves his claim he gets the JREF million dollar prize, but search as I may, I cannot seem to find that invitation.





Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.
<snip>



I agree that Mr Randi meant 'application' when he said 'invitation' as per your last paragraph in your quote. My interpretation of the quote is that Mr Randi cannot find an application from Prahlad Jani, probably because it was never sent. However if Prahlad Jani does apply and can prove the claim in the application then he will win the JREF $1m prize. I see no references to any offers that any rule will be bent or be re-written for this application. Nor do I see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply.


<snip>
There is no need for the rules to be bent, and the idea of an offer to do so is meaningless. As has been explained to you, Mr Randi is not bound by the rules.

Discussion on this point is not academic at all, it's flogging a dead horse.





The man does not have to apply for the MDC. No matter how many times you say that he does, it will not become true.

<snip>

Akhenaten, can you please provide evidence for the last paragraph in the above quote? I have highlighted the part just so that you know what I am talking about. I assume you mean that Prahlad Jani does not have to apply for the MDC in order to win it. You have made a very explicit claim there.


You also say that Mr Randi is not bound by the rules, as per the first paragraph of the quote. That is true, but is it relevant? I see no offer anywhere for any re write of the process. To put it another way there is nothing in the video to say that the normal processes of the challenge will not be followed. We can only go on what Mr Randi has actually said, not what he has not said. Please do not put words in his mouth.


To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.

[Uncayimmy]

To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.

LOL! You've got it backwards.

Akhenaten is not saying that he thinks Randi meant application when he said invitation. He meant invitation. Randi was challenging people long before there was any formal application process. Rather than personally invite everybody, he quite sensibly made it an open challenge so that others could challenge people on his behalf. Sensibly, he formalized the process so that people couldn't just show up at his door demanding a test.

Randi gets to personally challenge anybody he wants under any rules he wants, and that includes not requiring a formal application. The "evidence" that no application is required is that Randi never said the guy had to fill out an application. Randi said he'd go to India if the guy accepted and gave none of the caveats about application rules.

You are clearly wrong about this.

[Uncayimmy]

No application requirement here.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/231-a-direct-specific-challenge-from-james-randi-and-the-jref.html

RemieV said
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3089187#post3089187
Fremer does not have an application listed in the Challenge Applicants section because he has not, to my knowledge, officially applied. Negotiations were being executed personally between Fremer and Randi.

[Foolmewunz]

However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html



Quote:
IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices




So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims. Unless of course JREF is going to bend the rules for this claim.

This is what the discussion was about, and it's clearly been shown that Randi has personally issued the challenge(invitation, dare, whatever) and must obviously be exercising his right to waive this particular sub-part.

Answered. Thread closed.

[rjh01]

This is what the discussion was about, and it's clearly been shown that Randi has personally issued the challenge(invitation, dare, whatever) and must obviously be exercising his right to waive this particular sub-part.

Answered. Thread closed.
Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.

[rjh01]

LOL! You've got it backwards.

Akhenaten is not saying that he thinks Randi meant application when he said invitation. He meant invitation.

Let us check what Akhenaten said

Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'.

No, that reads like an request to change the word 'invitation' to 'application' in what Randi said. From the context this is reasonable. I can only go on what Akhenaten said. Randi is defiantly needing to receive something before going to India.


Randi was challenging people long before there was any formal application process. Rather than personally invite everybody, he quite sensibly made it an open challenge so that others could challenge people on his behalf. Sensibly, he formalized the process so that people couldn't just show up at his door demanding a test.

Randi gets to personally challenge anybody he wants under any rules he wants, and that includes not requiring a formal application. The "evidence" that no application is required is that Randi never said the guy had to fill out an application. Randi said he'd go to India if the guy accepted and gave none of the caveats about application rules.

You are clearly wrong about this.
I agree Randi also did not say that an application is required. He also did not say that no application is required. As far as I am concerned any change from the normal processes requires an explicit statement. That has not happened. If it has please tell me where.



Randi also did not specify any test with a pass / fail criteria. Until there is such a test there is no specific challenge. Negotiations would be required first (see below).

OK, let us imagine I have misunderstood something, Randi receives an invitation to go to India to supervise the "study", done using the same subject, under the same conditions. No other details are supplied. On the way Randi notices pigs flying. But that is OK. Pigs do fly. Randi watches Prahlad Jani 24 hours a day for 11 days. He notices that no food is consumed. Prahlad Jani does take baths twice a day, including splashing water over the face and mouth. At the end of the 11 days Prahlad Jani has lost some weight and says to Randi "you owe me $US1 million dollars." Should Randi pay? Is there something wrong with this? I say yes. Plenty. But that is what I am interpreting Akhenaten as telling me Randi is issuing a challenge to do.



No application requirement here.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/231-a-direct-specific-challenge-from-james-randi-and-the-jref.html

I do agree that Randi may not require a formal application. However as your link says he requires that negotiations take place in order to work out the details of the test. Randi has not said any have taken place.




No, nothing is wrong at all. The JREF has tested breatharians before and will likely do so again.<snip>

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

This link discusses a previous similar application from around 1999 that Randi rejected rather bluntly (to put it diplomatically). The link in the OP no longer works. The thread also says why these tests should not happen.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=8876

[Foolmewunz]

Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.

Other than....???!!! What are you on about? You have Randi's words available... right there... in front of you. View the YouTube or read the words that someone was kind enough to transpose. Why would I want to go to some other source. I have no trouble understand the source that's immediately and readily available.

The world isn't made up of contract language and sub-clauses. The man clearly challenged him. To anyone who speaks English, with any sort of accent, it is a direct challenge. Why are you trying to make it into some sort of legalistic trick. It isn't. Randi doesn't play tricks. Oh, wait..... Randi doesn't mince his words and hide behind "gotcha" clauses. He shoots from the hip and the lip.

And, by inference, he's waiving their usual concern about someone risking his or her life.

Query Randi, not us. Maybe he speaks RJH01ese, because I sure don't.

[Akhenaten]

I agree that Mr Randi meant 'application' when he said 'invitation' as per your last paragraph in your quote. My interpretation of the quote is that Mr Randi cannot find an application from Prahlad Jani, probably because it was never sent. However if Prahlad Jani does apply and can prove the claim in the application then he will win the JREF $1m prize. I see no references to any offers that any rule will be bent or be re-written for this application. Nor do I see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply.





What do you mean, 'agree'? I was simply pointing out the error that you insist on continuing to make. We are diametrically opposed, not in agreement.

Unlike yourself, When I hear Mr Randi say 'invitation', I feel safe in assuming that he means 'invitation'. Do you think that video was just thrown together by some old guy with a webcam and a limited vocabulary?

I'm at a loss to know why you are pursuing a line of reasoning which requires you to substitute Mr Randi's words with your own, but as one would expect from such a course of action, you are completely wrong.

That you do not see anything to say that Prahlad Jani does not need to apply is hardly surprising given that you appear to auto-translating Mr Randi's speech.

When I posted above that "Maybe you'll want to interpret 'invitation' as 'application'." I was indicating an expectation that you would continue to make the same error. Maybe I should be applying for the MDC myself.



Akhenaten, can you please provide evidence for the last paragraph in the above quote? I have highlighted the part just so that you know what I am talking about. I assume you mean that Prahlad Jani does not have to apply for the MDC in order to win it. You have made a very explicit claim there.





You want me to provide evidence that Mr Randi didn't say what you want him to have said?

I don't think so.



You also say that Mr Randi is not bound by the rules, as per the first paragraph of the quote. That is true, but is it relevant?





I wouldn't say it's relevant so much as I'd say that it's the entire point of this discussion.

Are you claiming that the truth of the matter is irrelevant? I can't help you with that, I'm afraid.



I see no offer anywhere for any re write of the process. To put it another way there is nothing in the video to say that the normal processes of the challenge will not be followed. We can only go on what Mr Randi has actually said, not what he has not said. Please do not put words in his mouth.





You are the one trying to substitute Mr Randi's word 'invitation' with your own word 'application', so I'm obviously unable to satisfy your request.



To everyone else. I am sorry I have used so many words and so many posts. It appears that Akhenaten needs everything spelt out in such painful detail for him to understand it.





Please desist from making baseless personal attacks. They do not advance the discussion at all.

[Akhenaten]

Am in the process of answering the previous two posts. Please provide a source for "issued the challenge", other than the youtube quoted previously. Also the source for "waive this particular sub-part." As far as I can see you and others have made a few assumptions, this being one of them, which I am querying.



my bolding


It might be time for you to consider the possibility that Foolmewunz and 'others' are completely correct, and that you are the one who is wrong.

[Akhenaten]

Let us check what Akhenaten said





I have. You misread it.

[Uncayimmy]

No, that reads like an request to change the word 'invitation' to 'application' in what Randi said. From the context this is reasonable. I can only go on what Akhenaten said. Randi is defiantly needing to receive something before going to India.
Akhenaten already explained that my interpretation was correct. He was saying, "Maybe you will want to [continue pretending that the words he stated are not the words he mean]."

I agree Randi also did not say that an application is required. He also did not say that no application is required. As far as I am concerned any change from the normal processes requires an explicit statement. That has not happened. If it has please tell me where.
When the scam artists and attention seekers approach Randi, he tells them to complete an application and has the JREF negotiate on his behalf. He has a history of issuing challenges all by himself. He used to keep a check for $10,000 with him and would issue challenges on the spur of the moment.


Randi also did not specify any test with a pass / fail criteria. Until there is such a test there is no specific challenge. Negotiations would be required first (see below).
Well, duh! Nobody said they wouldn't be.

I do agree that Randi may not require a formal application. However as your link says he requires that negotiations take place in order to work out the details of the test. Randi has not said any have taken place.
Great. We're done. No formal application is required, and he can most certainly test somebody's claim about living on air if he so chooses. You see, rules like the harm rule are partly to protect idiots from themselves. You don't want people saying to themselves, "Hell, for a million bucks I'd try to leap off a building. I might break a leg, but it's worth it!"

[Akhenaten]

Other than....???!!! What are you on about? You have Randi's words available... right there... in front of you. View the YouTube or read the words that someone was kind enough to transpose. Why would I want to go to some other source. I have no trouble understand the source that's immediately and readily available.

The world isn't made up of contract language and sub-clauses. The man clearly challenged him. To anyone who speaks English, with any sort of accent, it is a direct challenge. Why are you trying to make it into some sort of legalistic trick. It isn't. Randi doesn't play tricks. Oh, wait..... Randi doesn't mince his words and hide behind "gotcha" clauses. He shoots from the hip and the lip.

And, by inference, he's waiving their usual concern about someone risking his or her life.

Query Randi, not us. Maybe he speaks RJH01ese, because I sure don't.





Quoted for the hard of reading.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say.

[Audible Click]

It's quite frustrating to read a thread where everyone has explained the video six ways from Sunday. rjh, your best bet would be to give up trying to parse everything Randi said and write to him. It's getting a bit embarrassing for you.

[chillzero]

No, I am not going to tell anyone Mr Randi is wrong.

*cough*

Mr Randi did get one thing wrong.

:rolleyes:

[Cuddles]

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/241-big-news-from-the-breatharians.html
Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians uncovered covert runs to local fast food establishments. One applicant asked us to make sure she had access to a private bathroom.
I can't find any direct links to the tests right now, but it's not exactly a secret that Randi has been involved with testing them before.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason you're so vocal about the JREF not testing breatharians now, when you didn't seem to have any problem with it in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59245), which was discussing this article (http://www.randi.org/jr/070105quality.html).
Hey, I'll do that test, first making sure that Jasmuheen is totally satisfied about the circumstances, and meeting all her requirements, including location, atmosphere, and ambiance. I'll also get a comprehensive waiver from her that says she won't bring legal action against anyone if something goes wrong, that she's a competent adult, that she will tell us when and if she has any problems, and that she will close off the test at any time she wishes. But I won't allow the test to be terminated unless Jasmuheen herself says she wants it to be stopped!

[Randi]

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh. First, on the matter of the current Breatharian, we didn’t receive an application – the FIRST requirement! -- so we didn’t receive a claim, and we’ve no idea what he SPECIFICALLY says he’s able to do. This man is only one of HUNDREDS of others all over the world who make this ridiculous claim. Are we expected to court him, to select him out of all those other liars, as if he were special in some way? Years ago, we tested a few of them. They were caught cheating. End of matter. Why do I have to spend my time arguing these things…? IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance. Got that? Now I’m busy setting up my European tour. Call me when this guy applies.

[Akhenaten]

Now that was amazing.

[Ririon]

Now that was amazing.
...and it's MY thread. :p His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum.. :)

[rjh01]

Thanks Randi. I appreciate your post to add sanity to this thread.

[Akhenaten]

...and it's MY thread. :p His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum.. :)





You win!

:)

[rjh01]

I almost missed this. When was the last time this happened? I can find no record of such a test since the year 2000.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/241-big-news-from-the-breatharians.html
Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians uncovered covert runs to local fast food establishments. One applicant asked us to make sure she had access to a private bathroom.
I can't find any direct links to the tests right now, but it's not exactly a secret that Randi has been involved with testing them before.

Incidentally, is there any particular reason you're so vocal about the JREF not testing breatharians now, when you didn't seem to have any problem with it in this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59245), which was discussing this article (http://www.randi.org/jr/070105quality.html).
Hey, I'll do that test, first making sure that Jasmuheen is totally satisfied about the circumstances, and meeting all her requirements, including location, atmosphere, and ambiance. I'll also get a comprehensive waiver from her that says she won't bring legal action against anyone if something goes wrong, that she's a competent adult, that she will tell us when and if she has any problems, and that she will close off the test at any time she wishes. But I won't allow the test to be terminated unless Jasmuheen herself says she wants it to be stopped!

For those interested, that thread is about four years old. I never said that JREF should test the person. There was no need. The idea that such a thing would happen is just too stupid to consider. There was no discussion of JREF doing any testing even in the thread.
Here is one typical post of mine in the thread
Simple. Just put cameras in her kitchen without letting her know. Then you will see here eat three meals a day.

Or get a good looking bloke to chat her up and get a dinner date. Need I say more?:D
The quote in Cuddles post is from Randi not me. That quote is not my style. The thread does not support your arguments.

[rjh01]

Now that was amazing.

I assume all your posts Akhenaten in this thread were all a big joke. Not meant to be taken seriously. Well you had me fooled. Very funny. But you will not get me like this again. I will assume that all your posts from now on in all threads are nothing but jokes.

[rjh01]

...and it's MY thread. :p His first post in over two years. Now I'll leave it to you guys to sort out the rest of the brouhaha. If only D. J. Groethe would reply in my other thread in this subforum.. :)


That is simple to get James Randi to post here. Just send James Randi an e-mail from the contacts page. I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result. Mind you it might not work for D. J. Groethe.

[Foolmewunz]

That is simple to get James Randi to post here. Just send James Randi an e-mail from the contacts page. I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result. Mind you it might not work for D. J. Groethe.

Oh, so you're the one he was referring to re wasting time he should be devoting to planning his European trip.

He essentially confirmed what we'd been saying. He can damned well test the guy if he wants to, he/we can work out protocols that are safe, etc...

You actually emailed Randi to come address this? There was only one person who seemed to be confused as to what he said in the video.

[Akhenaten]

I assume all your posts Akhenaten in this thread were all a big joke. Not meant to be taken seriously. Well you had me fooled. Very funny. But you will not get me like this again. I will assume that all your posts from now on in all threads are nothing but jokes.





Assume what you will, rjh01. My posts are what they are and if you choose to treat them as jokes there's little I can do. It certainly goes a long way to explaining your nonsensical responses.

The rest of your post is an off-topic personal attack so I'll simply report it as such and ignore it.



That is simple to get James Randi to post here. Just send James Randi an e-mail from the contacts page. I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result. Mind you it might not work for D. J. Groethe.





This explains Mr Randi's rather abrupt answer. I echo Foolmewunz' response to this childish wasting of Mr Randi's time and will not further respond to whatever silly game you appear to be playing in this thread.

[Cuddles]

OK, now you really are just trolling. Why?

I never said that JREF should test the person.

And I never claimed you did. What I did point out, however, is that while in this thread you flat out stated that the JREF would never test such claims and appear to be rather vehement in defending your statement, in that thread you not only make no such claim, but actually suggest ways such a test could be done. It appears your attitude towards testing breatharians has rather changed since then.

The idea that such a thing would happen is just too stupid to consider. There was no discussion of JREF doing any testing even in the thread.

Why would you post such an obvious lie? For goodness sake man, you just quoted one of your own posts from that thread in which you discuss ways the JREF could test such a claim. Certainly something here is too stupid, but I don't think it's the idea of testing breatharians.

The quote in Cuddles post is from Randi not me. That quote is not my style.

Of course it was a quote from Randi. That was the whole point. He clearly stated that he would, in fact, be perfectly happy to test a breatharian. You were, and for some reason continue to be, wrong.

The thread does not support your arguments.

My argument is that Randi and the JREF would test, and have previously tested, breatharians. Both the articles I have linked very clearly support those points. I have no idea what point you think you are trying to make here, since you have been proven wrong in every possible way.

You saw the result.

Indeed we did. Randi just stated outright that he would be perfectly happy to test this breatharian, in direct contradiction of your own claims. Which makes your continued bad attitude seem even stranger. It would make far more sense to simply admit your error and move on, instead of going to these Clausian lengths to defend an indefensible claim.

[rjh01]

<snip>

The man if he wants to apply for the MDC will need to specify this
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html



The man does not have to apply for the MDC. No matter how many times you say that he does, it will not become true.

<snip>


I want to reply to Cuddles post, but I will do that later. Except to say I am not trolling. I am a person who has been fed a load of **** in this thread.

The above is one such post. The point I object to I have highlighted. As Randi said
<snip> IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? <snip>
Capitals are Randi's not mine.

I cannot reconcile Akhenaten's statement in bold with what Randi has said. Unless of course Akhenaten meant that the man could go back to his cave (or wherever) and ignore us. But then the statement is just worthless.

Please if anyone posts after this post tell me how Akhenaten's statement in bold is consistent with Randi's post or otherwise.

I could have used many other statements in this thread.

Now I am going to bed. So you got a few hours at least before I can post again.

[Cuddles]

I am a person who has been fed a load of **** in this thread.

Let's see why, shall we?

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims.

Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians
Hey, I'll do that test
Years ago, we tested a few of them... I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort... The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance.

Despite plenty of incontrovertible evidence that Randi has tested breatharians, and is willing to test them again, you insist on claiming that the JREF will not test breatharians. You can certainly claim to have been "fed a lot of ****", but it mainly appears to be coming out of your mouth, not going in.

[Belz...]

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh. First, on the matter of the current Breatharian, we didn’t receive an application – the FIRST requirement! -- so we didn’t receive a claim, and we’ve no idea what he SPECIFICALLY says he’s able to do. This man is only one of HUNDREDS of others all over the world who make this ridiculous claim. Are we expected to court him, to select him out of all those other liars, as if he were special in some way? Years ago, we tested a few of them. They were caught cheating. End of matter. Why do I have to spend my time arguing these things…? IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance. Got that? Now I’m busy setting up my European tour. Call me when this guy applies.

Woah! Randi.

And it's only been 3 years since your last post !! :p

[chillzero]

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh.

I did send him one 15 hours ago. You saw the result.

lol.

[Akhenaten]

Despite plenty of incontrovertible evidence that Randi has tested breatharians, and is willing to test them again, you insist on claiming that the JREF will not test breatharians. You can certainly claim to have been "fed a lot of ****", but it mainly appears to be coming out of your mouth, not going in.





I've seen lots of ungracious responses from the losing side in many, many discussions here, but rjh01's little tirade is just about worth printing out and framing as a classic example of the genre.


Woah! Randi.

And it's only been 3 years since your last post !! :p





What a damned shame that his time was wasted on such a non-cause. There was no need for him to have explained any of that to us, with a single notable exception.


lol.





Eventually it will occur to our erstwhile Annoyer of the Amazing™ that inventing brouhahas is not something that one would want known, let alone something to come here and attempt to boast about.

[Audible Click]

One can only hope that rjh will, now, realize that he hasn't been fed **** by any of the posters and that he just didn't know that we were trying to help him understand what Mr. Randi was saying in the video. Granted that hope, at least on my part, has dwindled to about nothing but I'll wait and see if rjh sees the light at the end of the tunnel or if it's just another train.

[Roadtoad]

Methinks the whole question of breatharians has now been settled.

They don't survive on air. They eat a load of ****, and survive on that.

Edited to comply with autocensor.

[rjh01]

Methinks the whole question of breatharians has now been settled.

They don't survive on air. They eat a load of ****, and survive on that.

I am starting to respond to this thread. First off I will agree on this. But then that is hardly in dispute.

Quote changed to avoid a possible rule 10 breach.

[Foolmewunz]

As I said when that vid was first posted. (I paraphrase).....


Damn! Good to see Randi in such fine fettle. I hadn't looked at one of his videos since the bout with cancer. A little thin, but definitely has his curmudgen thing going and looks like he can terrorize the woo woo community for another decade!

Great sight for these sore eyes.

[Akhenaten]

As I said when that vid was first posted. (I paraphrase).....


Damn! Good to see Randi in such fine fettle. I hadn't looked at one of his videos since the bout with cancer. A little thin, but definitely has his curmudgen thing going and looks like he can terrorize the woo woo community for another decade!

Great sight for these sore eyes.





Couldn't agree more. I'd been quite concerned about him recently, but he seems to be in much, much better shape than Swami Whatsisname.

Obviously subscribes to a more powerful Goddess or something.

[Stray Cat]

That's food for thought. :duck:

[rjh01]

I am a person who has been fed a load of **** in this thread.

Let's see why, shall we?

So JREF will not accept this Indian breatharian's claims.
<snip>


Due to the software the above quote left off part of what I was saying. This bit.

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices

This bit was removed by Cuddles from the above quote
However from http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

So the rules state that “JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water” So what I is saying is that any test that says “lock me without food or water for however long” does not conform to these rules. Now I will make a concession. There may be ways and means around this. In which case what I said does not apply.







Randi reports that his investigations of breatharians
Hey, I'll do that test
Years ago, we tested a few of them... I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort... The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance.

Despite plenty of incontrovertible evidence that Randi has tested breatharians, and is willing to test them again, you insist on claiming that the JREF will not test breatharians. You can certainly claim to have been "fed a lot of ****", but it mainly appears to be coming out of your mouth, not going in.

Yes, Randi did test them, years ago. I have never said otherwise. As for testing them again, good luck in finding a method of doing so without risk. I did suggest one way elsewhere recently but other members rejected that.




OK, now you really are just trolling. Why?

I never said that JREF should test the person.

And I never claimed you did. What I did point out, however, is that while in this thread you flat out stated that the JREF would never test such claims and appear to be rather vehement in defending your statement, in that thread you not only make no such claim, but actually suggest ways such a test could be done. It appears your attitude towards testing breatharians has rather changed since then.

The idea that such a thing would happen is just too stupid to consider. There was no discussion of JREF doing any testing even in the thread.

Why would you post such an obvious lie? For goodness sake man, you just quoted one of your own posts from that thread in which you discuss ways the JREF could test such a claim. Certainly something here is too stupid, but I don't think it's the idea of testing breatharians.

The quote in Cuddles post is from Randi not me. That quote is not my style.

Of course it was a quote from Randi. That was the whole point. He clearly stated that he would, in fact, be perfectly happy to test a breatharian. You were, and for some reason continue to be, wrong.

The thread does not support your arguments.

My argument is that Randi and the JREF would test, and have previously tested, breatharians. Both the articles I have linked very clearly support those points. I have no idea what point you think you are trying to make here, since you have been proven wrong in every possible way.

You saw the result.

Indeed we did. Randi just stated outright that he would be perfectly happy to test this breatharian, in direct contradiction of your own claims. Which makes your continued bad attitude seem even stranger. It would make far more sense to simply admit your error and move on, instead of going to these Clausian lengths to defend an indefensible claim.


One comment about that other thread you mentioned in the above quote. It was discussing a test made by another organization, not JREF, of a breatharian. They stopped it when it became dangerous. Other organizations have other rules, so they may test these people. I have no problem with that. My post I quoted from that thread was how THEY can expose her. Nothing more. Not how JREF can test a breatharian. I do not know why you raised the issue at all.


As for that quote from Randi I am not sure what it means. Does it mean that he is willing to kill her? I should hope that is not right. Because that is the literal meaning of what he said. If he is not willing to kill her then he is not willing to use that test.

But all of this is just minor issues. The big issue for me which no one has even attempted to address I made in post 43. Please everyone if you want to make a post here please address that post first. Please take it seriously. It is the only issue of any importance for me in this thread. Everything else follows.


If you want another example of the **** I was fed then here it is
This is what the discussion was about, and it's clearly been shown that Randi has personally issued the challenge(invitation, dare, whatever) and must obviously be exercising his right to waive this particular sub-part.

Answered. Thread closed.


Other than....???!!! What are you on about? You have Randi's words available... right there... in front of you. View the YouTube or read the words that someone was kind enough to transpose. Why would I want to go to some other source. I have no trouble understand the source that's immediately and readily available.

The world isn't made up of contract language and sub-clauses. The man clearly challenged him. To anyone who speaks English, with any sort of accent, it is a direct challenge. Why are you trying to make it into some sort of legalistic trick. It isn't. Randi doesn't play tricks. Oh, wait..... Randi doesn't mince his words and hide behind "gotcha" clauses. He shoots from the hip and the lip.

And, by inference, he's waiving their usual concern about someone risking his or her life.

Query Randi, not us. Maybe he speaks RJH01ese, because I sure don't.


In other words Foolmewunz is saying no application is required, JREF is prepared to put the applicant at risk. However Randi in the post he made here has said otherwise.


And people are lining up to say I have lost the debate. That I cannot understand. Answer my query in post 43 and I will be happy. This is not a new issue. It is what I have been saying all along. Yet others have been saying different.

[monoman]

I have to say I'm totally confused by the brouhaha in this thread.

I, like rjh01, was under the impression that Randi would not test breatharians again - must be something I read in commentary ages ago.

That's not to say I don't want him tested, I was just surprised by Randi's video.

I don't know rjh01, and must assume he has a history of being a bit of a prat (no offence ;)) by the responses he's been getting!

[rjh01]

I have to say I'm totally confused by the brouhaha in this thread.

I, like rjh01, was under the impression that Randi would not test breatharians again - must be something I read in commentary ages ago.

That's not to say I don't want him tested, I was just surprised by Randi's video.

I don't know rjh01, and must assume he has a history of being a bit of a prat (no offence ;)) by the responses he's been getting!

Thank you. It means a lot to me.


As for me "being a bit of a prat" I think most of us are guilty of that at some stage. I am speaking about myself here. No offence taken.

[Akhenaten]

I have to say I'm totally confused by the brouhaha in this thread.

<snippy>





Welcome to a group that's enjoying quite an expansion at the moment. Swami Whatsisname is such an obvious fake that I find it a bit hard to understand him generating any interest at all, let alone this apparent obsession with his eligibility for the MDC. Maybe it's a slow news week in some parts.

[Nova Land]

I have to say I'm totally confused by the brouhaha in this thread.

I, like rjh01, was under the impression that Randi would not test breatharians again - must be something I read in commentary ages ago...


Put me in that category as well. Until skimming this thread, I too was under the impression that JREF would not test breatharians. I recall (or think I recall) reading a number of statements over the past few years saying that JREF would not test breatharians because there didn't seem to be a good way of testing the claim which would not put the applicant's life or health in jeopardy.

I'd thought those were official (or at least semi-official) statements from people connected to JREF, but likely they were simply statements from other posters who, like me, had an incorrect understanding.

[rjh01]

Thanks Nova Land for your post. Maybe the information you refer to came from this

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html

It is black and white. In this thread they were trying to convince me that Randi had "challanged" Prahlad Jani and as a result Prahlad Jani neither had to complete an application nor as a result meet this requirement. Both statements are obvious junk (hence me saying I have been fed ****) and it took a post by Randi to say otherwise. Steam is still coming out of my ears about this.

[chillzero]

I have to say I'm totally confused by the brouhaha in this thread.

I, like rjh01, was under the impression that Randi would not test breatharians again - must be something I read in commentary ages ago.

That's not to say I don't want him tested, I was just surprised by Randi's video.

I don't know rjh01, and must assume he has a history of being a bit of a prat (no offence ;)) by the responses he's been getting!

Most of us here also understand that the rules state no one will be tested when there is a possibility of harm.

However, we also understand two other things: that Randi has tested breatharians in the past, and that Randi has the ability to extend the challenge to anyone he wants to. We see the video, and his post here as evidence of both - that he will indeed test a breatharian again, given the opportunity.

Past or present, it is a big indicator that someone is being a bit of a prat when they take it on themself to make the claim that Randi is wrong about what he can and cannot do with his own challenge (as I have pointed out a few times, it is not the JREF's challenge - they merely administer it for Randi). Those of us with sufficient understanding of, and respect for, Randi's position find it hilarious that anyone would try to contradict him. Trying to have him come to their defense, then practically bragging about the resulting fail when Randi demonstrates his complete disinterest in the matter (of this thread) only adds icing to the top.

[rjh01]

Most of us here also understand that the rules state no one will be tested when there is a possibility of harm.

However, we also understand two other things: that Randi has tested breatharians in the past, and that Randi has the ability to extend the challenge to anyone he wants to. We see the video, and his post here as evidence of both - that he will indeed test a breatharian again, given the opportunity.

Past or present, it is a big indicator that someone is being a bit of a prat when they take it on themself to make the claim that Randi is wrong about what he can and cannot do with his own challenge (as I have pointed out a few times, it is not the JREF's challenge - they merely administer it for Randi). Those of us with sufficient understanding of, and respect for, Randi's position find it hilarious that anyone would try to contradict him. Trying to have him come to their defense, then practically bragging about the resulting fail when Randi demonstrates his complete disinterest in the matter (of this thread) only adds icing to the top.

Two things
1. Yes that one post where I said Randi was wrong was not a good post and I was wrong in making it.

2. For so many members to see evidence where none existed for so long, even when told by me it was wrong and then again by Randi is just amazing.

[chillzero]

2. For so many members to see evidence where none existed for so long, even when told by me it was wrong and then again by Randi is just amazing.

Show me where Randi says that neither he nor the JREF will ever test this man?

[rjh01]

Oh Please Chillzero. Why do you not admit it yourself, you are wrong? The man needs to apply for the MDC. You and others others have been going on about him not needing to do so and Randi willing to expose him to danger. Randi has said otherwise in this thread. I will not address any other issue in this thread until you have addressed that issue.

Also how can you test a person like him within the rules? You cannot deny him food or water in order to do the test.

[rjh01]

Let us look at the facts.
1. We have not received an application. Despite what has been said in this thread, an application will be required. Since it is very unlikely JREF will ever get an application from the man then no test can happen.

2. The application must contain a test of the man's abilities that is acceptable to JREF and to Mr Randi. Yes there will be negotiations on this to make it acceptable to both parties. That is OK.

3. There is no credible evidence that Mr Randi is willing to amend the rules for this test. Any claims otherwise in this thread are wrong.

4. It is not important what has happened or not happened in other tests

Do you agree Chillzero?

Does everyone else agree?

I made a similar post above (posts 43 and 54) , which no one has disputed.

[rjh01]

Show me where Randi says that neither he nor the JREF will ever test this man?

I do not maintain that Mr Randi has said he will be unwilling to test this man under any conditions. It all depends on what his claim is. That Mr Randi says is unknown. First off he needs to apply.

You have read this post?

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh. First, on the matter of the current Breatharian, we didn’t receive an application – the FIRST requirement! -- so we didn’t receive a claim, and we’ve no idea what he SPECIFICALLY says he’s able to do. This man is only one of HUNDREDS of others all over the world who make this ridiculous claim. Are we expected to court him, to select him out of all those other liars, as if he were special in some way? Years ago, we tested a few of them. They were caught cheating. End of matter. Why do I have to spend my time arguing these things…? IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance. Got that? Now I’m busy setting up my European tour. Call me when this guy applies.



Please Chillzero, how about you give your current position + an analysis of this thread? I would love it if you and I can say something we could agree. How about my posts above?

[Akhenaten]

It is black and white. In this thread they were trying to convince me that Randi had "challanged" Prahlad Jani and as a result Prahlad Jani neither had to complete an application nor as a result meet this requirement.





You can't even spell it, let alone argue about it.

In any case, convincing you of anything is pretty much secondary to what people are discussing.

It's not all about you, you know, and your acting as though it is seems to be the main problem.



Both statements are obvious junk (hence me saying I have been fed ****) and it took a post by Randi to say otherwise.





What are you on about? Nobody is feeding you asterisks. You really do feel the need to be a key player here, don't you?

As for annoying Randi with your pettiness: you ought to be ashamed, and for you to think he was needed to explain anything to us that we didn't already know is nothing short of ludicrous.



Steam is still coming out of my ears about this.





Sounds like a paranormal ability to me. Have you considered submitting an application for the MDC?



Two things
1. Yes that one post where I said Randi was wrong was not a good post and I was wrong in making it.





Indeed. First post you've made that I can agree with. Well done!



2. For so many members to see evidence where none existed for so long, even when told by me it was wrong and then again by Randi is just amazing.





What's amazing is your belief that you are some kind of 'final authority'.

Also amazing is that you've just admitted in the previous paragraph that you were wrong, and yet are still insisting that we should have agreed with you.

Even more amazing is that you believe Randi has somehow vindicated your position.

Most amazing of all is Randi, but that's beside the point.



Oh Please Chillzero. Why do you not admit it yourself, you are wrong?





Physician rjh01, heal thyself.

See this?



1. Yes that one post where I said Randi was wrong was not a good post and I was wrong in making it.




Please note that nobody is arguing.



The man needs to apply for the MDC.





No, he doesn't. He needs to have something to eat. The poor fellow looks anorexic.



You and others others have been going on about him not needing to do so and Randi willing to expose him to danger.





Interesting conflation of the points under discussion, rjh01. Wrong, but interesting.



Randi has said otherwise in this thread. I will not address any other issue in this thread until you have addressed that issue.





There's a blessing. Silence is golden, they say, and I look forward to finding out.



Also how can you test a person like him within the rules? You cannot deny him food or water in order to do the test.





So you say. You're wrong, of course. If a person wants to have a claim of not having to eat or drink tested, then not eating or drinking is certainly going to be a part of it.

The fact that you are still unable to see how such a test might be conducted within the rules which Randi himself can make up as he chooses is your problem, and yours alone.



Let us look at the facts.






I will not address any other issue in this thread until you have addressed that issue.





Oops. Sorry. I guess that wasn't a fact.



1. We have not received an application.





What do you mean 'we'? Are you part of the JREF now? Congratulations.



Despite what has been said in this thread, an application will be required.





I don't think anyone here is having trouble understanding that the JREF isn't just going to post this bloke a cheque on the basis of the media articles that have appeared.

Well, maybe one person is having trouble with it.



Since it is very unlikely JREF will ever get an application from the man then no test can happen.




Nobody is disputing that.

What's largely being disputed is your claim that it's impossible to test this man's claims should an application be made.

You're wrong.



2. The application must contain a test of the man's abilities that is acceptable to JREF and to Mr Randi. Yes there will be negotiations on this to make it acceptable to both parties. That is OK.





Applications don't contain tests, although protocols may be said to.

Apart from that, thank you, Captain Obvious.



3. There is no credible evidence that Mr Randi is willing to amend the rules for this test. Any claims otherwise in this thread are wrong.





Here we go again.

Mr Randi makes the rules, rjh01. He can do what he likes, unencumbered by any requirement to provide you with evidence of his ability to do so, your indignant assertions notwithstanding.



4. It is not important what has happened or not happened in other tests





What's important about other tests, rjh01, is your claim that it's impossible for them to have happened.



Do you agree Chillzero?





I doubt it, but the Lady can speak for herself.



Does everyone else agree?





Nup. You're wrong.

Personally, I liked monoman's take on things.



I made a similar post above (posts 43 and 54) , which no one has disputed.





Yes, you're repeating yourself endlessly in some kind of frantic effort to prove . . . something. It's getting really boring, and it's kind of pathetic.

[chillzero]

Oh Please Chillzero. Why do you not admit it yourself, you are wrong?
I am not wrong. Let me take you through it nice and slowly. You seem to haev become hysterical in your attemtps to drag yourself out fo the mess you created for yourself and have stated things to my creidt that I have not said.

The man needs to apply for the MDC.
I never said otherwise.

You and others others have been going on about him not needing to do so
In your excitment you have lost track of my part in this discussion. My posts have been in response to two stupid things you said. First you said that Randi was wrong. We've already cleared that one up, and I should give credit for your acceptance of that.

Secondly, and related to that, you claimed that the JREF would never test this man. Essentially what you are now suggesting is that Randi would make a podcast declaring this man to be eligible for the Challenge, and then turn around when the man eventually applies to tell him, "no - you don't qualify". Seriously - get a grip. This is why we have repeatedly pointed out to you that not only can Randi issue the challenge to anyone, but that he deomonstrably has done in the past. He has also previously tested breatharians - why would he not do so again?

and Randi willing to expose him to danger.
I have made no comment about this at all. You seem to be trying to paint me and a few others here as 'baddies' for no apparent reason.
In fact, the only comments that approach protocol or testing that I have made have been to correct you on some blatent assertions you made about testing him for weight loss and other things - with no confirmation of exactly what the man claims to be able to do and how it affects his body.

Randi has said otherwise in this thread. I will not address any other issue in this thread until you have addressed that issue.
Perhaps you missed it:
Years ago, we tested a few of them. They were caught cheating.
<snip>
I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…? The JREF challenge is open to ANYONE, regardless of body weight, nationality, age, religion, skin color, gender, number of ears, attitude, sense of humor, political inclinations, or degree of woo-woo acceptance. Got that?



Also how can you test a person like him within the rules? You cannot deny him food or water in order to do the test.
I'll wait to find out exactly what it is that the man claims, and will probably also wait for Randi to define a protocol. As he said himself he has tested people like this before.

Just in case you missed it in your own quoted post:

IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. IF HE’S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO WANT THE MILLION, GOODBYE! I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…?
<snip>
Call me when this guy applies.


I'm really intrigued about your email to Randi, that would elicit a resposne like this:
I only get in here to settle the brouhahas that are periodically invented. Sigh.
<Snip>
I’m sure we could arrange a protocol in which he would be monitored to remove all possibilities of harm of any sort, don’t you think…?
<snip>
Got that? Now I’m busy setting up my European tour. Call me when this guy applies.
and yet not only does it cause you to brag about clearly irritating and disturbing a busy man with trivia, it still has you insisting that you are right.
"Mr Randi,
I know you said on record that this man could win a million dollars but I know you are wrong so can you come and tell all these nasty anonymous people on the internet that you don't intend to watch this man starve to death? And please make it soon because they are all giving me *** over it."

[Uncayimmy]

Well, I said he didn't need to apply, and I stand by that. Had this guy issued a press release saying that he accepted Randi's challenge, I highly doubt that Randi would make him fill out a form. He has tested people without any forms, and he's engaged in negotiations without a formal application in the past.

Randi issued his challenge, and there was no response, so the guy should be ignored. Randi's comment about the application is not unexpected at this point. It's the equivalent of, "Well, if he wants to accept the challenge, he knows where to find me. He can follow the process like all the other knuckleheads with their ridiculous claims."

It's like challenging a guy to a fight in the street and having him back down. If people keep bugging you about it, you dismiss it with, "I'm at the gym every evening. He knows where to find me." You don't go back out in the street because that gives the other guy credit he doesn't deserve.

[Roadtoad]

Allow me to interject for a moment.

Enough.

Randi has the right to test whomever he chooses. It's his challenge, his money. I think this joker is a fool for even attempting this, but, whatever. You pays your dollar, you takes your chances. At some point, someone pushes this kind of nonsense just far enough, and the challenge must be accepted. My only hope is this buffoon doesn't do himself any harm with this silly attempt.

The argument is counterproductive. Say what you will, examine what's taking place here, and ask yourself how much this is helping.

Again, enough.

[Akhenaten]

Allow me to interject for a moment.

Enough.





Everyone is allowed to join in the discussion.

Joining in for the purpose of telling others that you've had enough seems a bit pointless though. If you've had enough, stop reading.



Randi has the right to test whomever he chooses. It's his challenge, his money.





Yep.



I think this joker is a fool for even attempting this, but, whatever. You pays your dollar, you takes your chances.





Attempting what? According to the media reports, he's been doing it for 70 years.



At some point, someone pushes this kind of nonsense just far enough, and the challenge must be accepted.





That's actually the whole idea of the MDC, isn't it? Put up or shut up?



My only hope is this buffoon doesn't do himself any harm with this silly attempt.





What silly attempt are you referring to?



The argument is counterproductive. Say what you will, examine what's taking place here, and ask yourself how much this is helping.





Counterproductive to what? People are indeed saying what they will and what's taking place here is a discussion.

How much it's 'helping' is up to the participants and if any of them find it to be unhelpful, they can simply drop out.



Again, enough.





Yes, sir!

Not.

[Ririon]

Yes, sir!

Not.
All bickering on the interweb shall stop immediately! Right. :p

One useful rule of thumb: If you want to know if a person can do something, check if his middle name is "Amazing". If it is, he can probably do it in some more or less amazing way.

Signed
Captain Ririon "Danger" Obvious

[Akhenaten]

:)

[Gilmar]

I only get in here to settle the brouhahas...

I dunno how much credence we should give to a guy with only 54 posts in 9 years. :D

[Winter]

I dunno how much credence we should give to a guy with only 54 posts in 9 years. :D

:(

[CriticalThanking]

Someone nominate Winter for pith.

[Psi Baba]

You actually emailed Randi to come address this?
I wonder where he got the notion to do that?
Query Randi, not us.


While I agree that it's obvious that Randi can waive any rules regarding who or what can be accepted for the challenge, I'm baffled as to the disagreements over whether the guy must apply to be tested even after Randi posted and made that pretty clear.

The man does not have to apply for the MDC.
Akhenaten, could you clarify this? Randi seems to say that he does indeed have to apply (to be tested, if that's what you meant). In fact he points out that that's "the FIRST requirement!"

First, on the matter of the current Breatharian, we didn’t receive an application – the FIRST requirement! -- so we didn’t receive a claim, and we’ve no idea what he SPECIFICALLY says he’s able to do. <snip> IF THIS MAN WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS, HE CAN APPLY. <snip> Call me when this guy applies.
(bolding mine, caps Randi's) Seems pretty clear to me that Randi is saying (three times, no less) that if the guy wants to be tested, he has to apply.

Well, I said he didn't need to apply, and I stand by that. Had this guy issued a press release saying that he accepted Randi's challenge, I highly doubt that Randi would make him fill out a form. He has tested people without any forms, and he's engaged in negotiations without a formal application in the past.
Randi's words seem to contradict your statements here.

Also, it seems to me that there is only one way to test a breatharian. They are denied food until they give up or die. If they are forced to quit against their will, they always have an excuse as that the test was ended prematurely. They can claim that the appearance of starvation was a transformation or some nonsense. I think somewhere in the range of six months to a year would be proof enough that they are in fact living on nothing.

[Akhenaten]

The man does not have to apply for the MDC.





Akhenaten, could you clarify this?





This whole discussion was a circular mess, but I guess the upshot is that he doesn't have to go through the normal media presence and signed affadavit process, I think.

I can't even remember exactly what the rest of the silly argument was about, to tell the truth, but I recall enough to know that I don't want to have it again.

FYI, Unca Yimmy has left the field for the time being, and very likely won't respond to this enquiry.

[Nova Land]

... it seems to me that there is only one way to test a breatharian. They are denied food until they give up or die. If they are forced to quit against their will, they always have an excuse as that the test was ended prematurely.


I disagree. I can think of at least one way to test a breatharian which would not involve a fast to the death.

As with all testing JREF does, this testing needs to be tailored to the specific things which a particular claimant claims to be able to do. But there's an essential element to the claim of being able to survive indefinitely without consuming anything but air which it should generally be possible to do testing for in a clearly-specified (rather than open-ended) period of time. A week to 10 days should be sufficient.

The aspect of breatharianism which I think is ideal for testing is the matter of weight change. Either a breatharian (a) stays at a constant weight, or (b) loses and/or gains weight. My guess is that most breatharians would say their weight fluctuates rather than stays constant -- but we need to know which of these two possibilities our particular breatharian claims is the case for them.

I'd need the answers to 2 questions to work out the protocol.

Question 1: Are they claiming to be able to exist solely on air, or do they also drink water? (While strictly speaking breatharians are supposed to be able to live without taking in any food or water, in practice it seems like a number of breatharians say they do drink water.)

Question 2: Are they claiming their weight stays constant when they are not eating anything? Or do they claim their weight fluctuates?

1. No-water / constant weight. Let's take the no-water case first.* If they claim their weight stays constant, that's a fairly easy claim to test. If they are taking in nothing, then all we need to do is keep them in a controlled setting (room with bed, chair, locked window, radio and tv and computer, reading material, no sink or toilet; a pair of video cameras installed in the room and running constantly; volunteer observers to accompany breatharian any time they leave room) for, say, 10 days, and weigh them twice a day.

Let's suppose the breatharian starts at a weight of exactly 100 pounds. If, at the end of 10 days, all of the recorded weights have been right on the 100-pounds mark -- and there is no evidence they have consumed any substances -- they win.

2. No-water / fluctuating weight. More likely the breatharian will claim their weight fluctuates. But if they only lost weight while going without food, then obviously breatharianism is not sustaining them; a person who constantly loses weight becomes lighter and lighter and eventually fades away. That's not consistent with a claim that a person can live indefinitely on a breatharian diet; either they are claiming that at some point their weight loss becomes negligible (which takes us back to the claim they can be on a breatharian diet without losing weight) or they are claiming to be able to gain weight while consuming nothing. That's the claim I would test.

I have no idea when they think they gain weight, how quickly they think can gain weight, or under what conditions they think they can gain weight. But for breatharians who say they can live indefinitely on a breatharian diet, and who claim their weight fluctuates, the ability to gain weight on a breatharian diet is an essential element of their claim.

Let them specify under what conditions they can gain weight. Let them pick a time when they feel they are able to gain weight while not eating. Let them say what things would interfere with their ability to gain weight while not eating, so those things can be removed from the test site. And then let them then demonstrate this ability.

If during an agreed length of time, during which they are weighed twice a day, they can demonstrate a steady gain of weight -- not a one-time spike, which could be the result of trickery, but something which graphs into a fairly smooth line going upward which ends up at a higher point than it began -- then they win.

3. Water / fluctuating weight. If they say they need to drink water, that complicates the protocol. A person might think they could gain weight by drinking water and then not urinating it out -- and that would be a very dangerous thing for them to do, so any test needs to be designed in a way that would not encourage them to attempt that.

Here's a suggested protocol for a breatharian who claims they are able to gain weight while not eating (but while drinking water):

The claimant is provided with a measured container of water, from which they may drink as much or little as they want -- and the quantity is recorded, as well as the times that water is consumed. No flush toilet is provided (since flush toilets contain water, which might be surreptitiously consumed), but containers are provided for urinating and for defecating. (Yes, people on prolonged fasts can and sometimes do defecate.) Any time that waste material is produced, the container into which it was produced is promptly taken away and weighed, and the weight is recorded.

The person is weighed four times a day, and the exact weight is recorded as well as the time of weighing. An adjusted weight is recorded as well: the weight of liquid consumed since the last weighing is subtracted from the recorded weight, and the weight of waste products is added to the recorded weight. In order to win, both their actual weight and their adjusted weight must show a steady increase from the weight recorded on the first day to the weight recorded on the last day.

If they start at 100 pounds, drink 10 pounds of water over the course of the test, and wind up weighing 110 pounds, that would count as no weight gain. But if they start at 100 pounds, drink 10 pounds of water, let out 5 pounds of urine, and end up weighing 110 pounds, that would count as a 5 pound gain. (The more urine they produce, the better for them as far as their chances of proving their claim go; that removes the incentive to try to hold in waste products.)

4. Water / constant weight. A suggested protocol for a breatharian who drinks water and claims their weight stays constant is much harder. I'm going to refrain from trying to write down a suggested protocol for that, so as not to make this post overly-long or overly-complicated. (If a breatharian ever comes forward who makes this specific claim, it can be addressed then.)

But my basic point is that there are ways of testing breatharians other than denying them food until they give up or die. The test procedure I've outlined above is one such method; I expect there are others.


__________________________________________________ ________________________________
* NOTE: I would have very serious qualms about testing a breatharian who said they did not drink water. Going without food for prolonged periods can be relatively safe; going without water for prolonged periods is not. So I hope any breatharian who applies for the MDC says they actually live on water and air, and sets up a protocol involving the drinking of water. But the no-water case is easier to explain, so I've run through that first in the hope it makes the with-water case easier to follow.

[fromdownunder]

The claimant is provided with a measured container of water, from which they may drink as much or little as they want -- and the quantity is recorded, as well as the times that water is consumed. No flush toilet is provided (since flush toilets contain water, which might be surreptitiously consumed), but containers are provided for urinating and for defecating.

Whack a Catheter on them. That way, intake and output can both be measured quite easily.

Norm

[Kuko 4000]

Randi has the right to test whomever he chooses. It's his challenge, his money.



Yep.




The point is valid - but - it's not his money.

:boxedin:

[Akhenaten]

I agree, actually. My answer quoted above was made more with brevity than accuracy in mind and I'd be inclined to think that the money would more correctly be said to belong to the Foundation. I have no clue about how much Mr Randi can (for legal purposes) speak as the Foundation.