What would happen to a body if it were unprotected in space?

[Cainkane1]

When I read Arthur C Clarks book 2001 and when HAL killed the astronauts the surviving astronaut didn't want to jettison the bodies into space for fear that something awful would happen to the bodies. What would happen?

[jadebox]

When I read Arthur C Clarks book 2001 and when HAL killed the astronauts the surviving astronaut didn't want to jettison the bodies into space for fear that something awful would happen to the bodies. What would happen?


Apparently, the deep-freeze of space allows one to be brought back to life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3001:_The_Final_Odyssey) one-thousand years later. :-)

-- Roger

[KingMerv00]

Here's what NASA says happens to living bodies:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

I guess we can extrapolate from there.

[jwalker1960]

Well, assuming the body in question is dead, whatever happens can't be much worse than anything that could happen to it here on earth, probably much less so. On earth there are all sorts of animals, insects and bacteria that love to feast on deal humans. In space, none of these would apply so I'm guessing that the body would be preserved forever in the cold of deep space.

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

When I read Arthur C Clarks book 2001 and when HAL killed the astronauts the surviving astronaut didn't want to jettison the bodies into space for fear that something awful would happen to the bodies. What would happen?

People used to think that the vacuum would cause instantaneous and catasatrophic pressure damage, but according to NASA that doesn't happen. Assuming you're already dead, the body would freeze after a few minutes and that would be that.

[arthwollipot]

If I thought it would be at all realistic, I would make a clause in my will for my corpse to be launched into interstellar space.

I'd even let them mount instruments on my body, if they want.

[Mark6]

If I thought it would be at all realistic, I would make a clause in my will for my corpse to be launched into interstellar space.

I'd even let them mount instruments on my body, if they want.
Unless I am badly mistaken, you are still young. Who knows, perhaps by the time your will gets executed, it's not so unrealistic...

[KingMerv00]

People used to think that the vacuum would cause instantaneous and catasatrophic pressure damage, but according to NASA that doesn't happen. Assuming you're already dead, the body would freeze after a few minutes and that would be that.

I think it would take longer than a few minutes because there is no conduction or convection of heat in outer space. How much radiant energy does the human body put out and how long would it take to go from 98.6F to 32.0F?

Edit: Is this really a social issue or current event? I gotta start watching the news more closely.

[quarky]

A propulsive fart would send the body careening through space. Fortunately, it wouldn't be smelled.

[Monketey Ghost]

If I thought it would be at all realistic, I would make a clause in my will for my corpse to be launched into interstellar space.

I'd even let them mount instruments on my body, if they want.


That would be a truly useful thing to do with a dead human: use it as mass for a probe. What a strange and cool and unrealistic but excellent idea.

A propulsive fart would send the body careening through space. Fortunately, it wouldn't be smelled.

*trembles before the beauty of that post*

[Cainkane1]

So if a body in a suit were released into space it would be around for many centuries? Cool.

[KingMerv00]

So if a body in a suit were released into space it would be around for many centuries? Cool.

Millennia even. Just a guess but the ultimate cause of break down would be cosmic rays.

[ponderingturtle]

Why is this a social instead of scientific issue?

[leon_heller]

In another SF story (I forget who wrote it, it might have been Heinlein) the passengers and crew of a disabled spaceship with insufficient space suits available get into the airlock, hyperventilate for a few minutes, then exhale. The door is then opened and they are guided across to another spaceship by crew members in space suits.

[Beady]

You know, it's happened for real. Hint: Google "Soyuz 11."

[Monketey Ghost]

from the Wikipedia entry, "the mission ended in disaster when the crew capsule depressurised during preparations for re-entry, killing the three-man crew."


Ouch. My question is, how much ouch are we talking?

Maybe it's not such a great question to explore what would happen to a man, not too tasteful.

[Soapy Sam]

In another SF story (I forget who wrote it, it might have been Heinlein) the passengers and crew of a disabled spaceship with insufficient space suits available get into the airlock, hyperventilate for a few minutes, then exhale. The door is then opened and they are guided across to another spaceship by crew members in space suits.

That was Arthur C. Clarke. "Earthlight".

[Mark6]

That would be a truly useful thing to do with a dead human: use it as mass for a probe. What a strange and cool and unrealistic but excellent idea.
There is nothing excellent about it. Probes need LESS mass, not more.

Unless you meant reaction mass.

[Mark6]

In another SF story (I forget who wrote it, it might have been Heinlein) the passengers and crew of a disabled spaceship with insufficient space suits available get into the airlock, hyperventilate for a few minutes, then exhale. The door is then opened and they are guided across to another spaceship by crew members in space suits.
It's in "Earthlight" collection by Arthur C. Clarke, and it is quite wrong. Clarke apparently thought that hyperventilation would allow people to remain conscious in space for several minutes. First, hyperventilation does not allow you to last longer without air -- it just makes it easier to endure. And more importantly, with or without hyperventilation, in vacuum (or in any hypoxic atmosphere) your lung tissue dumps oxygen out of blood and into lungs. No matter how good you breath holding skills are, you will lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds. The scene in "2001: Space Odyssey" was realistic. The scene in "Earthlight" was not. But in all fairness, when Clarke wrote it I don't think anyone in the world knew about oxygen dumping.

[Beady]

Ouch. My question is, how much ouch are we talking?

Apparently, not a lot. The recovery crew later stated they thought the three men were asleep. There was no discoloration or deformity, the eyes were closed and the expressions calm/peaceful.

[ShadowSot]

The subject later reported that he could feel and hear the air leaking out, and his last conscious memory was of the water on his tongue beginning to boil.

Woof, that's a fun thought.

[Ziggurat]

I think it would take longer than a few minutes because there is no conduction or convection of heat in outer space. How much radiant energy does the human body put out and how long would it take to go from 98.6F to 32.0F?

Edit: Is this really a social issue or current event? I gotta start watching the news more closely.

Assuming we're reasonably close to blackbodies in the infrared region, radiant power is P = AσT4, where A is the surface area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_surface_area) of the body, σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_constant), and T is absolute temperature. So for a human body (1.7 m2), that should be roughly 890 Watts at 98.6 F, and 535 Watts at 32 F. We'll just do a ballpark estimate of an average power loss of 600 Watts (it should be on the lower end because the surface will cool faster than the innards). Assuming a body mass of 75 kg, and further assuming that it's got a specific heat about equal to water (~4.2 kJ/kg K), we've got to lose around 1.2x106 J. At 600 Watts, that will take about 2000 seconds, or about half an hour. Of course, this is all ballpark estimates. The surface of the body will freeze much sooner, and the core might stay unfrozen longer.

[Mark6]

Apparently, not a lot. The recovery crew later stated they thought the three men were asleep. There was no discoloration or deformity, the eyes were closed and the expressions calm/peaceful.
I had talked to people who had been in depressurized airplanes. They did not feel anything, would just breath normally then suddenly pass out.

[Mirrorglass]

Well, assuming the body in question is dead, whatever happens can't be much worse than anything that could happen to it here on earth, probably much less so. On earth there are all sorts of animals, insects and bacteria that love to feast on deal humans. In space, none of these would apply so I'm guessing that the body would be preserved forever in the cold of deep space.

The bacteria inside the human body are enough to decompose the body after death, so it doesn't really matter whether there are germs in space or not. The bacteria wouldn't survive for long, though, with the temperature dropping, so the body most likely would preserve pretty well. I'd think radiation might do some damage in the long run, though.

[GreyArea]

No matter how good you breath holding skills are, you will lose consciousness in 10-15 seconds. The scene in "2001: Space Odyssey" was realistic.

So that scene in Battlestar Galactica, where Galen and Cally rapidly move from an airlock to a raptor, would also be accurate? It worked basically the same way Bowman's move worked.

I have to wonder if vacuum-jumping like this will become an extreme sport sometime in the future. :covereyes

[Mark6]

So that scene in Battlestar Galactica, where Galen and Cally rapidly move from an airlock to a raptor, would also be accurate? It worked basically the same way Bowman's move worked.

I never saw Battlestar Galactica, so can't answer.

I have to wonder if vacuum-jumping like this will become an extreme sport sometime in the future. :covereyes
Stranger things had happened... google "300 degree club".

[quarky]

Why is this a social instead of scientific issue?

Because of the fart?

[Madalch]

Assuming we're reasonably close to blackbodies in the infrared region, radiant power is P = AσT4, where A is the surface area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_surface_area) of the body, σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_constant), and T is absolute temperature. So for a human body (1.7 m2), that should be roughly 890 Watts at 98.6 F, and 535 Watts at 32 F. We'll just do a ballpark estimate of an average power loss of 600 Watts (it should be on the lower end because the surface will cool faster than the innards). Assuming a body mass of 75 kg, and further assuming that it's got a specific heat about equal to water (~4.2 kJ/kg K), we've got to lose around 1.2x106 J. At 600 Watts, that will take about 2000 seconds, or about half an hour. Of course, this is all ballpark estimates. The surface of the body will freeze much sooner, and the core might stay unfrozen longer.

The moisture in your skin (and lungs, and eyes, and tongue...) will evaporate, taking quite a bit of heat with it. If your 75 kg body lost a kilogram of mass by evaporation of water, that's 2.2 MJ, which is more than enough to lower the body temperature to below freezing. I'm not even going to contemplate calculating the rate of evaporation, though....

And then what happens is your body falls down to Miami, causing some arrogant red-head to make smarmy comments about you being "down to earth".

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

When I read Arthur C Clarks book 2001 and when HAL killed the astronauts the surviving astronaut didn't want to jettison the bodies into space for fear that something awful would happen to the bodies. What would happen?

Not this.:rolleyes:
6:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSysCag2BIk

[Rolfe]

Very unpleasant, but relevant. It was reported that the passengers and crew of Pan Am 103, which essentially disintegrated at 32,000 feet (rather than exploded), would have lost consciousness within about 10 to 15 seconds due to their lungs trying to expand to four times their normal volume. (I'm just relaying this - it does make sense the air in the lungs would expand in the very low pressure, but why wouldn't it just be forced out through the mouth and nose?)

However, there was clear evidence when the bodies were recovered on the ground that a proportion of these people regained consciousness as they fell into normal atmospheric pressure, until they were killed when they hit the ground. Which suggests this depressurisation isn't in itself actually fatal.

Shockingly, the civil negligence action against Pan Am, which was successful, didn't award any damages to the relatives for pain and suffering, because it was said there was no evidence the deceased had experienced pain and suffering. Some failure of imagination there, I fear.

One of the Babylon 5 novels had spacing through an airlock used as a method of execution. It seems to be something that fascinates writers. Pretty damn unpleasant though.

Rolfe.

[quarky]

Very unpleasant, but relevant. It was reported that the passengers and crew of Pan Am 103, which essentially disintegrated at 32,000 feet (rather than exploded), would have lost consciousness within about 10 to 15 seconds due to their lungs trying to expand to four times their normal volume. (I'm just relaying this - it does make sense the air in the lungs would expand in the very low pressure, but why wouldn't it just be forced out through the mouth and nose?)

However, there was clear evidence when the bodies were recovered on the ground that a proportion of these people regained consciousness as they fell into normal atmospheric pressure, until they were killed when they hit the ground. Which suggests this depressurisation isn't in itself actually fatal.

Shockingly, the civil negligence action against Pan Am, which was successful, didn't award any damages to the relatives for pain and suffering, because it was said there was no evidence the deceased had experienced pain and suffering. Some failure of imagination there, I fear.

One of the Babylon 5 novels had spacing through an airlock used as a method of execution. It seems to be something that fascinates writers. Pretty damn unpleasant though.

Rolfe.

Beats the electric chair. And the fatal drug cocktail.

[Mikemcc]

In another SF story (I forget who wrote it, it might have been Heinlein) the passengers and crew of a disabled spaceship with insufficient space suits available get into the airlock, hyperventilate for a few minutes, then exhale. The door is then opened and they are guided across to another spaceship by crew members in space suits.It was a short story by Arthur C Clarke. A module on a rotating space station breaks loose and the trapped crew have to de-compress and jump to a rescue vehicle. IIRC correctly the main issue at the end of the story was the sunburn they got.

[Ziggurat]

The moisture in your skin (and lungs, and eyes, and tongue...) will evaporate, taking quite a bit of heat with it. If your 75 kg body lost a kilogram of mass by evaporation of water, that's 2.2 MJ, which is more than enough to lower the body temperature to below freezing.

I should have pointed this out, buy my calculation was really for the heat needed to drop the body TO the freezing point. I didn't include the latent heat of freezing in my calculation, so actually freezing the body requires a lot more energy loss. And the body won't drop to below freezing until it's lost that latent heat.

[Ziggurat]

One of the Babylon 5 novels had spacing through an airlock used as a method of execution. It seems to be something that fascinates writers.

Because it's an update of walking the plank, which is a staple of swashbuckling adventures.

[Madalch]

I should have pointed this out, buy my calculation was really for the heat needed to drop the body TO the freezing point. I didn't include the latent heat of freezing in my calculation, so actually freezing the body requires a lot more energy loss. And the body won't drop to below freezing until it's lost that latent heat.
True- my use of the word "below" was a typo. But at low pressure, water will still keep evaporating, even as it starts to freeze. Not nearly as rapidly as benzene, mind you, but it will still evaporate.

Many chemists now that vacuum-distillation of water is a pain in the neck because it evaporates too slowly. Vacuum-distillation of benzene is just as bad because it freezes too damn quickly.

[MikeMangum]

True- my use of the word "below" was a typo. But at low pressure, water will still keep evaporating, even as it starts to freeze. Not nearly as rapidly as benzene, mind you, but it will still evaporate.

Many chemists now that vacuum-distillation of water is a pain in the neck because it evaporates too slowly. Vacuum-distillation of benzene is just as bad because it freezes too damn quickly.

At low enough pressure, there is no liquid water (http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/96ClassProj/pics/941.jpg).

[INRM]

But isn't space like really really cold? Wouldn't you just flash freeze?

[elgarak]

But isn't space like really really cold? Wouldn't you just flash freeze?

Temperature is a function of an ensemble of particles. Empty space has no particles, hence no definable temperature. :D

For the discussion at hand, it really depends where you put the body. 'Cos there are big bubbles of heat out there that give off a lot of radiation, heating the side of the body facing them. Google "barbecue mode apollo" to learn of such problems for spaceflight.

[Travis]

My suspicion is that the body will dehydrate more than just freeze.

[catsmate1]

One of the Babylon 5 novels had spacing through an airlock used as a method of execution. It seems to be something that fascinates writers. Pretty damn unpleasant though.

Rolfe.

Quite a common trope in sci-fi. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThrownOutTheAirlock
Of course if you really don't live the person you can eject them in a suit, thus giving them time to contemplate their approaching end......

[EHocking]

A propulsive fart would send the body careening through space. Fortunately, it wouldn't be smelled.I space, no one can hear you fart...

[quarky]

I space, no one can hear you fart...

Good point. And reminds me off a barely on-topic line I wrote years ago:

You become an old fart when you can no longer hear, or smell your farts; or, you don't even care.

[dogjones]

(I'm just relaying this - it does make sense the air in the lungs would expand in the very low pressure, but why wouldn't it just be forced out through the mouth and nose?)


Cos lung expansion = inhalation, rather than exhalation?

[Mirrorglass]

Cos lung expansion = inhalation, rather than exhalation?

Well no, that's not the reason; you see, normally the lungs expand because they are pulled on by muscles from the outside. This causes the air pressure inside the lungs to drop below the ambient air pressure, and air flows in - this is what happens when we inhale. However, in this case the lungs expand because the ambient air pressure drops to near zero, causing the air inside the lungs to expand and push the lungs. As a result, some air is indeed pushed out via the airways. However, in the case where the drop in ambient air pressure is very fast, the air expands faster than it can flow out, causing serious lung damage.

[Roboramma]

But isn't space like really really cold? Wouldn't you just flash freeze?

Did you completely miss this post and the discussion that followed it? :confused:

Assuming we're reasonably close to blackbodies in the infrared region, radiant power is P = AσT4, where A is the surface area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_surface_area) of the body, σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_constant), and T is absolute temperature. So for a human body (1.7 m2), that should be roughly 890 Watts at 98.6 F, and 535 Watts at 32 F. We'll just do a ballpark estimate of an average power loss of 600 Watts (it should be on the lower end because the surface will cool faster than the innards). Assuming a body mass of 75 kg, and further assuming that it's got a specific heat about equal to water (~4.2 kJ/kg K), we've got to lose around 1.2x106 J. At 600 Watts, that will take about 2000 seconds, or about half an hour. Of course, this is all ballpark estimates. The surface of the body will freeze much sooner, and the core might stay unfrozen longer.

If you didn't miss it, which part of it do you find unclear or disagree with?

[Richard Masters]

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hia_m36pEpA#t=7m50s

[TheDaver]

I had talked to people who had been in depressurized airplanes. They did not feel anything, would just breath normally then suddenly pass out.
I believe it. The sensation of “running out of oxygen” is caused high levels of carbon dioxide rather than a lack of oxygen. Apparently if there’s a lack of oxygen (or I guess of air entirely), it’s pretty much just lights out for you.

[GlennB]

I believe it. The sensation of “running out of oxygen” is caused high levels of carbon dioxide rather than a lack of oxygen. Apparently if there’s a lack of oxygen (or I guess of air entirely), it’s pretty much just lights out for you.

Dr Jonathan Miller demonstrated this on a TV science series (years ago). He pedalled an exercise bike while rebreathing a closed circuit air supply. But the air was scrubbed of CO2 as it circulated around. He didn't feel any distress, just slowly began to fade away.....

[arthwollipot]

Well no, that's not the reason; you see, normally the lungs expand because they are pulled on by muscles from the outside. This causes the air pressure inside the lungs to drop below the ambient air pressure, and air flows in - this is what happens when we inhale. However, in this case the lungs expand because the ambient air pressure drops to near zero, causing the air inside the lungs to expand and push the lungs. As a result, some air is indeed pushed out via the airways. However, in the case where the drop in ambient air pressure is very fast, the air expands faster than it can flow out, causing serious lung damage.Interestingly, it works the other way around in horses.

[Mirrorglass]

Interestingly, it works the other way around in horses.

I'm confused. What exactly works the other way around?

[Complexity]

Unless I am badly mistaken, you are still young. Who knows, perhaps by the time your will gets executed, it's not so unrealistic...


I haven't had my coffee yet.

When I read this, it was much more interesting:

I am badly mistaken, you are still young. Who knows, perhaps by the time you're executed, it's not so unrealistic...

[Mark6]

I haven't had my coffee yet.

When I read this, it was much more interesting:

I am badly mistaken, you are still young. Who knows, perhaps by the time you're executed, it's not so unrealistic...
One can always hope... :D

[Rolfe]

Interestingly, it works the other way around in horses.


No it doesn't.... :confused:

Rolfe.

[jasonpatterson]

A related scifi stupidity is someone or something large getting blown out of a tiny hole. The best (worst?) example of this that comes to mind is in Alien 4 when a gigantic alien/human hybrid monster thing gets squooshed through a hole about the size of a half dollar coin.

If you ever happen to be on a spaceship, and if that spaceship develops a small, regular hole, stick your hand over it... The amount of force that would be applied to it would only be about 30 pounds, assuming your spaceship is pressurized to 1 atm. It would be painful, perhaps, and you'd likely get a wicked hickey eventually, but it certainly wouldn't squeeze you through and shoot you into space.

I guess that eventually the corpse would dry out, and (again eventually) it would probably be damaged by radiation so badly that recovering and reviving it would be more or less impossible, even in the far flung future...

[Mirrorglass]

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the body would even hold together? The dropping temperature would likely break every protein in the body, and if all the water eventually evaporated, there would be very little to bind the cells and tissues.

[KingMerv00]

Did you completely miss this post and the discussion that followed it? :confused:



If you didn't miss it, which part of it do you find unclear or disagree with?

This is a pretty sophisticated discussion of thermodynamics. I don't think we should blame anyone that doesn't follow it. Not everyone can or should be science dorks like us.

[KingMerv00]

Deleted.

[Brian-M]

But isn't space like really really cold? Wouldn't you just flash freeze?


Space is a vacuum. Have you ever tried keeping a hot drink in a thermos (a vacuum flask)? It stays warm far longer than it normally would because vacuum does not conduct heat. You could flash-freeze someone by dropping them into a pool of liquid nitrogen, but not by spacing them. (Although, they would quickly lose heat through thermal radiation.)

In fact, if they were spaced somewhere between Earth and Mars like the Space Odyssey 2001 situation described in the OP, I suspect they'd be slowly roasted by solar radiation instead of freezing.

[Toke]

Did anyone else see the movie Outland?

The "turn inside out" in the airlock made for a dramatic effect. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outland_(film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outland_%28film%29)

[Toke]

Assuming we're reasonably close to blackbodies in the infrared region, radiant power is P = AσT4, where A is the surface area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_surface_area) of the body, σ is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_constant), and T is absolute temperature. So for a human body (1.7 m2), that should be roughly 890 Watts at 98.6 F, and 535 Watts at 32 F. We'll just do a ballpark estimate of an average power loss of 600 Watts (it should be on the lower end because the surface will cool faster than the innards). Assuming a body mass of 75 kg, and further assuming that it's got a specific heat about equal to water (~4.2 kJ/kg K), we've got to lose around 1.2x106 J. At 600 Watts, that will take about 2000 seconds, or about half an hour. Of course, this is all ballpark estimates. The surface of the body will freeze much sooner, and the core might stay unfrozen longer.

Interesting, so app. 890W of the heat radiation buzzing around the room is interacting with my skin, and I am giving off a bit more than I receive.
I had not considered the amount of energy involved, no wonder one can feel cold, as in absence of the usual radiating from that angle.

[arthwollipot]

I'm confused. What exactly works the other way around?Well, it's a little off-topic, but a horse's muscles contract to exhale where ours contract to inhale. When the horse's muscles relax, the lungs fill with air.

[Roboramma]

This is a pretty sophisticated discussion of thermodynamics. I don't think we should blame anyone that doesn't follow it. Not everyone can or should be science dorks like us.

Fair enough. I just thought it odd that there was an ongoing discussion on exactly the point he raised which answered his question, but as you said, maybe he didn't follow it.

That's actually why I put that last line at the end of my post, but when I reread it it looks like I was being pretty snarky.

Anyway, to INRM, if you take a look at the quoted post and don't follow it, ask a question about what you don't understand and I'm sure someone will answer: I will if I can. :)

[Roboramma]

In fact, if they were spaced somewhere between Earth and Mars like the Space Odyssey 2001 situation described in the OP, I suspect they'd be slowly roasted by solar radiation instead of freezing.

I don't know about that, if by that you mean that their temperature would increase and they'd literally cook. From what I understand the earth's average temperature would be below the freezing point of water if not for the presence of greenhouse gases in it's atmosphere. I guess a person in a spacesuit would have a different albedo than the earth, but I don't know in which direction (higher or lower), and doubt it would be enough to literally cook someone.

Certainly there'd be damage from the radiation that would cause the body to deteriorate over time, but as to actually cooking it? I don't think we're close enough to the sun for that. My guess is that it would stay a little below the freezing point of water. Although I wonder if that glass in the spacesuit's visor would be enough to cause a greenhouse effect of its own?

[Mirrorglass]

Well, it's a little off-topic, but a horse's muscles contract to exhale where ours contract to inhale. When the horse's muscles relax, the lungs fill with air.

Ah yes, I thought it might be that. It's actually the same for humans (in normal breathing), but I simplified the story a bit to make it easier to follow. In any case, as the breathing muscles relax, they and some other structures start pulling on the lungs, increasing their volume, decreasing the pressure inside and pulling the air in. So it's not the lungs relaxing, precisely, but the muscles used for exhaling. That's the same for horses as well.