So, what should we in NH do?

[kittynh]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2004/01/29/nh_officials_caught_off_guard_by_execution_order/

It's been awhile since we've killed anyone, in fact you have to do a LOT to get the death penalty in NH. The state is totally unprepared. In fact, I didn't even know this could happen!

So, how should we condict this execution? Remember, we don't want to spend a lot of money...ok?

[DanishDynamite]

From the article:When a federal judge imposes a death penalty in a state without a death penalty, the judge can order the execution in another state, said Peter Papps, the first assistant U.S. attorney in New Hampshire. Could someone explain this to me? If a state doesn't have the death penalty as an option, how can it be forced to perform one?

[jj]

Drop 'em at the top of Mt. Washington in his skivvies on Jan 15th.

[kittynh]

Danish, I'm with you...

I thought we could only do the death penalty in NH in the case of someone killing a police officer. Plus, he didn't commit the crime in this state. We're being told we have to kill this guy...

Almost everyone I talk to is proud we just don't kill people in this state. We almost changed the law a few years ago, and everyone said, "oh, why bother, we won't execute anyone".

I've never heard of it!

[Tricky]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
From the article: Could someone explain this to me? If a state doesn't have the death penalty as an option, how can it be forced to perform one?
It would happen in New Hampshire, but they wouldn't be in charge. This is a federal court case and they have jurisdiction over the state.

[DanishDynamite]

kittynh:Danish, I'm with you...

I thought we could only do the death penalty in NH in the case of someone killing a police officer. Plus, he didn't commit the crime in this state. We're being told we have to kill this guy...

Almost everyone I talk to is proud we just don't kill people in this state. We almost changed the law a few years ago, and everyone said, "oh, why bother, we won't execute anyone".

I've never heard of it! So, let me get this straight. NH does in fact have the death penalty on the books, but hasn't used this option for over 60 years? And they are now being forced to perform an execution due to federal laws? Is that the situation?

[DanishDynamite]

Tricky:It would happen in New Hampshire, but they wouldn't be in charge. This is a federal court case and they have jurisdiction over the state. But hey only have jurisdiction if said state does in fact have the death penalty as an option, right?

[Hutch]

Originally posted by kittynh
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2004/01/29/nh_officials_caught_off_guard_by_execution_order/

So, how should we condict this execution? Remember, we don't want to spend a lot of money...ok?


Hmmmm, it might cost several thousand dollars, but I guess you could import one of the Saudi Head-Choppers to do the job--quite quick and relatively painless. They do about 120 a year in Saud, so they won't be out of practice.

And yes, I'm kidding--but beheading IS STILL DONE in Saudi Arabia at about the rate I mentioned. Usually for murder or drug smuggling.

[Suddenly]

Well...

Beats my pair of jacks...


I could swear that the Fed's have their own death row for this sort of thing. I guess in theory the whole idea of using state facilities makes sense, if the state has the death penalty. However, this doesn't take into account states that have the penalty but never use it.

The way this works for our freinds not familiar with the the American Judicial system...

(massively simplified)

The states have general jurisdiction over criminal matters. However, some criminal matters can also fall under federal law. In these cases the states and the feds have concurrent jurisdiction. They both can try and convict an individual for a particular crime.

For example, when I did trial work in my state, many of my clients were those arrested for drug dealing. This is covered by state and federal law. Depending on the situation the Feds would usually do one of four things:

1) Ignore it... Not big enough for them to care.
2) Wait and see, if the client was acquitted or didn't get enough time to suit the Feds, the Feds would prosecute.
3) Wait until the state finished, then prosecute anyway. (rare)
4) Seize the guy and try him themselves and tell the state to stick it.

Yes. The guy could be tried and acquitted and then tried and convicted. Or convicted twice, for the same act. Double Jeopardy you say? Nope!! The state and federal government are considered to be seperate in this regard. Neither can try you twice, but they both get a shot.


In this case, the defendant killed some people in Massachusetts. Mass does not have the death penalty. The Feds (it appears) chose #4 above (or perhaps #2 or #3, doesn't really matter), and prosecuted the guy under some Federal Law, and Federal Law does have the death penalty. The guy plead guilty (huh? who pleads in a capital case without a deal at least keeping you from the needle?) and was sentenced to death.

So, it is the Federal Government killing this guy, they are just using New Hampshire's facilities, as for obvious reasons Massachusetts has no such facilities. New Hampshire, which has the death penalty but has yet to use it, needs to go ahead and build some, but they likely have about 10 years unless this guy waives his mandatory appeals and writs.


The Feds have recently under Ashcroft changed their policy on seeking the death penalty in states (and other jurisdictions) lacking capital punishment. The Feds used to take local opposition to the death penalty into account, but that ended under smilin' John's reign. There was a big stink a month or two ago about the Feds seeking the death penalty in a case in Puerto Rico, where the vast majority of people are massively against the death penalty. Some believed this could affect the unique relationship between the U.S. and Puerto Rico, perhaps pushing the island away from statehood and towards independance.

Put mildly, I'll simply say that on the whole I think the way the Federal Government acts in the realm of criminal law is completely f*ck*ng evil. I can't really elaborate without getting

1) Technical
2) Really ticked off

So I'll leave it at that...

[kittynh]

Yeah, thanks for that clarification. Even I was going, "what?" over this. He didn't commit the crime here. I guess the thinking is that the victims family can drive up here easily from Mass, and the other place they could send him was Indiana and that would be a "hardship" for the family to get to. Personally, watching some vermin die isn't going to make me feel better that a family member was killed. Studies actually show that the families don't get anything from it (but go in expecting a lot).

Still, everyone here is a bit in shock, and this is a very conservative state.

[Mercutio]

Actually, Kitty, if I am not mistaken he actually has confessed to a killing in NH...ok, so there is the little detail of not having been tried for that one yet, but you can't have everything.

Again, this is all relying on brain lint, but if I recall, NH has two possibilities for execution--lethal injection and, yup, hanging. When I go nuts and take out half the university, I am going to request to be hanged.

How 'bout we tie him under the "Old Man" cliff...there's bound to be some more rockfall sometime soon, with the spring thaws...

[geni]

Go for the cheapest option. Natural causes.

[kittynh]

OK didn't know about the NH killing, but if I remember correctly, murder alone isn't enough for the death penalty in NH. You have to kill a police man and there was something else...
Still, I think Gov.Benson has agreed. It's just a little like an episode of one of those law shows I saw recently.

Hanging, now theres an interesting one! I did a slide show (dark ages power point for those young ones) on the night Lincoln was killed, following through to the execution of the conspirators. I can only hope the Feds are better at hanging NOW than they were then. Of course, Mrs.Lincoln didn't come watch a few of the guys pull up thier legs and hold out for quite awhile...

there was only one female present, a female doctor! Well, besides the woman they were executing of course!

[Dorian Gray]

NH's state motto is "Live Free or Die". Therefore, shouldn't NH be executing all its prisoners?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Well...


Put mildly, I'll simply say that on the whole I think the way the Federal Government acts in the realm of criminal law is completely f*ck*ng evil. I can't really elaborate without getting


What can be done to change that?

[shuize]

Not that I have any sympathy for the murder. But, Jesus, what sort of lawyer pled that guy to a capital crime without a no-execution deal?

Talk about malpractice.

[Zep]

Isn't there some place in the USA that is "federal land" only and does not belong to any state at all? Washington DC? Military bases? US embassies in foreign countries?

Therefore what is done there should come under federal jurisdiction only, i.e. federal law applies there only. Would that not be so?

IF SO...simply take the person convicted to death under federal law to that place and perform the sentence there. No state's rights violated, no execution-by-proxy in another state with their facilities, no whinging and whining by lawyers, etc.

Or am I being too simple about it...

[kittynh]

There are Federal prisons. The reason NH was picked is that the families of the victims wants to watch the execution. On tv they said, "The last person my son saw before he died was his murderer. I want to be the last person this guy sees before he dies." I've heard families even yell out stuff as a guy dies by lethal injection. It was thought to be an easy drive for the families.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Tony


What can be done to change that?

The simple answer: The mass of American citizens can stop being bloodthirsty geeks with a punishment fetish.

I'm not holding my breath.

[shanek]

Well, if you just want some cheap and creative ways of offing the guy:

Take him on a cruise ship into the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Take him into the ship's swimming pool on a small float. Bring a bucket of water with you. Once you're in the middle of the pool, stick his head in the bucket and drown him in that.

Then, of course, there's always the old standby: smear his testicles in potted meat and unleash the rabid wolverine.

Of course, given my feelings about the death penalty and those who support it, perhaps one of the following would be more appropriate:

Take the guy to the edge of a cliff. Tie a long rope around his waste. Then tie it to the people who want to watch him die. Then tie it to the Federal agents who got everyone into this mess in the first place. Any of them who wants to can push the guy off the cliff. Physics takes care of the rest.

Or:

Let them execute him, let the so-evil-that-being-grief-stricken-can't-excuse-it family members who want to watch, let them all go out into the middle of the desert, right there, so they can see him and he can see them. Then nuke him.

[Mr Manifesto]

So are Ashcroft's antics a bizarre way of trying to get non-death penalty states to toe the line? I mean is he trying, for example, to get Puerto Rico to use the death penalty, whether they like it or not, by using federal law?

[Malachi151]

What is there to debate, and why should it be costly? Shoot the guy in the head and bury him, end of story, total cost to tax payers, about $50.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
So are Ashcroft's antics a bizarre way of trying to get non-death penalty states to toe the line? I mean is he trying, for example, to get Puerto Rico to use the death penalty, whether they like it or not, by using federal law?

Not exactly. The feds are grabbing cases away from Puerto Rico and applying their own laws, even when those laws clearly contradict the expressed opinions and wishes of the people of Puerto Rico. What's really off-putting about Puerto Rico is that it isn't a state, and it's people really have no say in federal matters. This isn't a new idea, there was a grisly case in West Virginia a few years back during the Clinton administration where a couple allegedly torched their house as well as their children in an insurance scam. The feds claimed jurisdiction mainly because they knew that the worst the couple could get in W.Va. was life without parole. They wanted them dead. This torched off a big stink about federal overreaching and such. The first trial ended in a hung jury, and I have no idea if there has been a retrial or what as it sort of fell off the radar after that...

The current administration is being more aggressive in applying Federal jurisdiction to higher profile cases. This is partly a simple power grab by the Federal Government, in that they want to be seen as the "big boys" in criminal law. Somebody decided that it would be a political boost if notorious and nasty cases were in federal court. The Feds have much more resources to obtain convictions. They have better quality prosecutors, and a more highly skilled police force. They also have a few rules that handcuff defense lawyers. Plus they have nicer courtrooms. More or less, as a client once noted, "When they get you in the really nice chair, then you know you are f*ck*d."

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Zep
Isn't there some place in the USA that is "federal land" only and does not belong to any state at all?

The Grand Canyon is federal, isn't it? We could just toss him into that.

Originally posted by shanek
Take the guy to the edge of a cliff. Tie a long rope around his waste. Then tie it to the people who want to watch him die. Then tie it to the Federal agents who got everyone into this mess in the first place. Any of them who wants to can push the guy off the cliff. Physics takes care of the rest.

This guy killed three people, at least. I doubt there'd be any lack of people pushing him off the cliff.

[Agammamon]

Set him breast-deep in earth, and famish him;
There let him stand, and rave, and cry for food;
If any one relieves or pities him,
For the offence he dies. This is our doom:
Some stay to see him fasten'd in the earth.

[richardm]

Originally posted by kittynh
I did a slide show ... on the night Lincoln was killed

Great alibi. Yet, you look so young!

[American]

Well, the old Man in the Mountain attraction could use a boost. One way to get tourists back would be to have the execution where the head used to be. That would make a cooler post card than any lame old rock ledge.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Suddenly


The simple answer: The mass of American citizens can stop being bloodthirsty geeks with a punishment fetish.


How is that going to stop the Fed Government from usurping power from the states?