Norad-Tapes around 10:07: "terminate all exercise inputs"

[bio]

According to the NORAD-Tapes, around 10:07 there were still "exercise inputs" coming into Cheyenne Mountain, NORAD’s operations center.

How could it be, when according the official conspiracy theory, all exercises were stopped after the second crash around 09:03?

What kind of inputs, Speaker 10 was speaking about? Can anybody tell me, to whom this request, to stop the inputs, were given to?

13, 1547, near Pittsburgh. Possible bomb on board, united 93. Yeah, that's it. Near Pitt. Sorry, Northeast Weapons.
MALE SPEAKER 10: Hello. This is captain Taylor calling from Cheyenne Mountain control.
MALE SPEAKER 1: Yes.
MALE SPEAKER 10: what we need you to do right now is to terminate all exercise inputs comin into Cheyenne Mountain.
http://911depository.info/NORAD/Tapes/Transcript%20NEADS%20Channel%2020%20SD2%20TK.pdf

[DavidJames]

I would recommend you stop debating here and take your evidence to those who can actually do something with it? Will you do that? I'm sure there are professional organizations, media outlets, criminal agencies in Germany.

Will you do that?

I'm guessing you won't.

[bio]

I would recommend you stop debating here and take your evidence to those who can actually do something with it? Will you do that? I'm sure there are professional organizations, media outlets, criminal agencies in Germany.

Will you do that?

I'm guessing you won't.

indeed my girlfriend will be very happy, when I follow your recommendation. :)

[Dave Rogers]

According to the NORAD-Tapes, around 10:07 there were still "exercise inputs" coming into Cheyenne Mountain, NORAD’s operations center.

How could it be, when according the official conspiracy theory, all exercises were stopped after the second crash around 09:03?

Maybe - I'm just guessing here, but it's a possibility - the people who called for the exercises to be stopped at 9:03 were too busy dealing with the real hijack to go over the entire organisation chart of the USAF, identify everybody responsible for generating exercise inputs, send messages to every single one of them, and check that those messages had been received, before getting back to dealing with the greatest emergency they'd ever faced in their lives. Therefore, maybe they forgot to inform some of the people involved in the exercises, and just ignored their inputs instead until someone had time to deal with the situation.

And, of course, if all the exercises had stopped dead on the mark of 9:03, you'd be pointing out that either (a) that was proof of foreknowledge, because everybody would have to know in advance that the exercises were supposed to stop at that time, or (b) that was prrof of complicity because the people who were supposed to be dealing with the hijack knew it wasn't urgent and could therefore spend their time dealing with trivia.

But we're all eager to hear your explanation as to why this proves 9/11 was an inside job.

Dave

[ElMondoHummus]

Maybe - I'm just guessing here, but it's a possibility - the people who called for the exercises to be stopped at 9:03 were too busy dealing with the real hijack to go over the entire organisation chart of the USAF, identify everybody responsible for generating exercise inputs, send messages to every single one of them, and check that those messages had been received, before getting back to dealing with the greatest emergency they'd ever faced in their lives. Therefore, maybe they forgot to inform some of the people involved in the exercises, and just ignored their inputs instead until someone had time to deal with the situation.

And, of course, if all the exercises had stopped dead on the mark of 9:03, you'd be pointing out that either (a) that was proof of foreknowledge, because everybody would have to know in advance that the exercises were supposed to stop at that time, or (b) that was prrof of complicity because the people who were supposed to be dealing with the hijack knew it wasn't urgent and could therefore spend their time dealing with trivia.

But we're all eager to hear your explanation as to why this proves 9/11 was an inside job.

Dave

Hell, Dave, I'd just be happy for someone to confirm that 1: The 10:07 time is indeed normalized for the time zone difference between the east coast and the NORAD location in Cheyenne, and 2. That if the time difference is indeed taken into account and 10:07 was indeed EST, that there were truly exercises still going on and this wasn't just some guy late to the game putting out a redundant order.

[Dave Rogers]

Hell, Dave, I'd just be happy for someone to confirm that 1: The 10:07 time is indeed normalized for the time zone difference between the east coast and the NORAD location in Cheyenne,

The reference to flight 93 suggests that the time zone is correctly normalised, I think.

and 2. That if the time difference is indeed taken into account and 10:07 was indeed EST, that there were truly exercises still going on and this wasn't just some guy late to the game putting out a redundant order.

Precisely.

Dave

[Horatius]

Or here's another possibility: The highjacking of flight 93, which was well after the order was given to terminate the exercises, confused someone at NORAD. "Wait, another one? WTF? Is this for real? Did everyone get the order to cancel that exercise? Well send it again, just in case!"

[Reheat]

My guess is that the trusted agents at the other (than NEADS) NORAD Regions didn't all get the word that the exercise had terminated earlier and were continuing to generate the preplanned exercise inputs to NORAD Hqs. NORAD Hqs was busy and probably were just ignoring them during the previous hour.

To clarify further, each Region has a Plans Departments who writes the specific scenario inputs based on the overall exercise plan, These people are trusted agents who control the inputs from the Regions to NORAD Hqs. and evaluate the reaction to those inputs. Obviously, the inputs were not being transmitted further by NORAD Hqs who had been simply ignoring them during the previous hour.

If bio had evidence that NEADS was continuing with the exercise (there isn't any) then he might have a point. Otherwise this OP is simply a continuation of his stupid and utter failure series of threads due to ignorance and failure to understand the subject matter

[Sabrina]

My guess is that the trusted agents at the other (than NEADS) NORAD Regions didn't all get the word that the exercise had terminated earlier and were continuing to generate the preplanned exercise inputs to NORAD Hqs. NORAD Hqs was busy and probably were just ignoring them during the previous hour.

To clarify further, each Region has a Plans Departments who writes the specific scenario inputs based on the overall exercise plan, These people are trusted agents who control the inputs from the Regions to NORAD Hqs. and evaluate the reaction to those inputs. Obviously, the inputs were not being transmitted further by NORAD Hqs who had been simply ignoring them during the previous hour.

If bio had evidence that NEADS was continuing with the exercise (there isn't any) then he might have a point. Otherwise this OP is simply a continuation of his stupid and utter failure series of threads due to ignorance and failure to understand the subject matter

I'd say this is the most likely explanation. Based on my experience with military exercises, it takes a good deal of time (unless the moment is preplanned) to actually complete an ENDEX order. If anything, the fact that they were potentially still receiving exercise messages emphasizes the fact that they just dropped everything else they were doing in favor of dealing with the real-world issue and only got the chance to complete ensuring ENDEX when things slowed down a tad.

[progge]

According to the NORAD-Tapes, around 10:07 there were still "exercise inputs" coming into Cheyenne Mountain, NORAD’s operations center.
This is not exactly what the passage you cite tells us. What it tells us is that someone at Cheyenne Mountain believed that there were still exercise inputs coming into Cheyenne Mountain from NEADS this late. The whole dialogue takes place at 10:12:24 EDT.
From the Tapes, however, it’s pretty clear that the NEADS staff was focused on the real-world happenings, and everyone knew them to be real-world happenings. (Just to get a sense of perspective: Around the same time someone on the NEADS Op Floor jokes about the bomb-on-board warning from UA 93 “if this is an exercise input, this is a good one”, and is told to “save this kind of BS“ (MCC TK, channel 3).)
So the claim that NEADS would still generate exercise inputs at 10:12 EDT makes not much sense.
What kind of inputs, Speaker 10 was speaking about?
No clue.
Can anybody tell me, to whom this request, to stop the inputs, were given to?
“MALE SPEAKER 1” ist Cpt. Brian Nagel from the NEADS Huntress ID section. But he gives a phone extension to Cpt. Taylor, i.e. this issue is referred to another person.
The NEADS chat logs probably contain precise info about the exercise inputs. Don’t know if copies will be contained in the rest of the material NARA is going to release in the future.

[DavidJames]

I would recommend you stop debating here and take your evidence to those who can actually do something with it? Will you do that? I'm sure there are professional organizations, media outlets, criminal agencies in Germany.

Will you do that?

I'm guessing you won't.indeed my girlfriend will be very happy, when I follow your recommendation. :)As I suspected, your interest is in getting attention, nothing to do with what really happened. Have fun, there are plenty of people here willing to feed your addiction.

[WildCat]

OMGWTF911wasaninsidejobOMGWTF!!1!1!!1!!1!!!1

Or something.

[The Platypus]

I stopped reading at "official conspiracy theory"... After years of this stuff, I think I'm starting to lose patience for this crap in my old age.

[bio]

This is not exactly what the passage you cite tells us. What it tells us is that someone at Cheyenne Mountain believed that there were still exercise inputs coming into Cheyenne Mountain from NEADS this late. The whole dialogue takes place at 10:12:24 EDT.
From the Tapes, however, it’s pretty clear that the NEADS staff was focused on the real-world happenings, and everyone knew them to be real-world happenings. (Just to get a sense of perspective: Around the same time someone on the NEADS Op Floor jokes about the bomb-on-board warning from UA 93 “if this is an exercise input, this is a good one”, and is told to “save this kind of BS“ (MCC TK, channel 3).)
So the claim that NEADS would still generate exercise inputs at 10:12 EDT makes not much sense.

No clue.

“MALE SPEAKER 1” ist Cpt. Brian Nagel from the NEADS Huntress ID section. But he gives a phone extension to Cpt. Taylor, i.e. this issue is referred to another person.
The NEADS chat logs probably contain precise info about the exercise inputs. Don’t know if copies will be contained in the rest of the material NARA is going to release in the future.

I agree with you, it makes no sense.
The identity of this powerful "another person", who was able to stop the exercise, is the key.
Why somebody does not want, that we know, who this person was? The document was redacted, so that nobody can identify this person.

[progge]

Why somebody does not want, that we know, who this person was? The document was redacted, so that nobody can identify this person.

The time you wasted for making up this spooky idea could have been the time spent to get the redacted info. It’s really not that difficult.

[Profanz]

I never knew debunkers were even willing to entertain this idea. Let's start with if debunkers believe there were any exercises going on during the attacks. Well? Do any of you even admit this much? Because that would be some coincidence.

[bio]

The time you wasted for making up this spooky idea could have been the time spent to get the redacted info. It’s really not that difficult.

What is your speculation, who could give the order terminating the exercise?

[WildCat]

I never knew debunkers were even willing to entertain this idea. Let's start with if debunkers believe there were any exercises going on during the attacks. Well? Do any of you even admit this much? Because that would be some coincidence.
Just once I'd like a truther to come up with a coherent reason why the excercises are even important to whatever idiotic conspiracy you adhere to.

You sure won't be doing that, will you Profanz? You're simply not capable IMHO.

[Oystein]

I never knew debunkers were even willing to entertain this idea. Let's start with if debunkers believe there were any exercises going on during the attacks. Well? Do any of you even admit this much? Because that would be some coincidence.

Oh and on just that day you had a serios blister on your behind. What a coincidence!

if only you would care to tell us what it means...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

What is your speculation, who could give the order terminating the exercise?


Why speculate?

[fess]

The events that occurred September 11, 2001, would require that non-essential exercises cease immediately... would they not?
Why would it matter who gave the order to cease any exercise?

[Seymour Butz]

Why would it matter who gave the order to cease any exercise?



It doesn't to the rational and sane.

However, to insane, irrational, and paranoid twoofs, it is "suspicious" that this person is being kept out of public knowledge.

[Dave Rogers]

Let's start with if debunkers believe there were any exercises going on during the attacks. Well? Do any of you even admit this much? Because that would be some coincidence.

Do you understand what armed forces actually do when there isn't a war? They train, and they carry out exercises. That's about it.

Look up how many days in 2001 there were some kind of military exercise going on. Then divide by the number of days in 2001. When you've done that, come back and tell us what a spooky coincidence it was that there were exercises on that specific day.

Dave

[JoeyDonuts]

I wonder if anyone yelled out "Training Time Out!!!" during the events of that morning.

[Sam.I.Am]

Do you understand what armed forces actually do when there isn't a war? They train, and they carry out exercises. That's about it.

Even when there is a war there will always be training and drills to either keep them on their toes or to get new people up to speed. Maybe not every day of the week (although during a work up it probably is) but 4 or 5 days out of the week an 8 hour drill period is SOP (in my experience).

Look up how many days in 2001 there were some kind of military exercise going on.

All of them. On multiple commands. In all branches of the military.

Then divide by the number of days in 2001. When you've done that, come back and tell us what a spooky coincidence it was that there were exercises on that specific day.

Dave

This is what some people don't get. You are constantly cycling people through the military, that lifestyle isn't for everyone and less than 10% stay in for the long haul (20 to 30 years). Because of that there are always n00bs that need to be trained and the rest need to be kept up to speed. In any given command you will lose roughly 10% of your people every 6 months through either EOAS (end of active service) or shore duty (or the equivalent in other branches). Drills and exercises are the norm and not the exception. If anything Saturday was the least likely day for a drill (Sunday was security drill day/field day like clockwork after lunch).

[BigAl]

Even when there is a war there will always be training and drills to either keep them on their toes or to get new people up to speed. Maybe not every day of the week (although during a work up it probably is) but 4 or 5 days out of the week an 8 hour drill period is SOP (in my experience).

Add that people and planes involved in training are never at the expense of people and planes that are assigned to fast-reaction duties.

[jammonius]

According to the NORAD-Tapes, around 10:07 there were still "exercise inputs" coming into Cheyenne Mountain, NORAD’s operations center.

How could it be, when according the official conspiracy theory, all exercises were stopped after the second crash around 09:03?

What kind of inputs, Speaker 10 was speaking about? Can anybody tell me, to whom this request, to stop the inputs, were given to?

13, 1547, near Pittsburgh. Possible bomb on board, united 93. Yeah, that's it. Near Pitt. Sorry, Northeast Weapons.
MALE SPEAKER 10: Hello. This is captain Taylor calling from Cheyenne Mountain control.
MALE SPEAKER 1: Yes.
MALE SPEAKER 10: what we need you to do right now is to terminate all exercise inputs comin into Cheyenne Mountain.
http://911depository.info/NORAD/Tapes/Transcript%20NEADS%20Channel%2020%20SD2%20TK.pdf

Greetings bio and thank you for posting up an excellent topic for discussion, backed by a good OP, laying the foundation for posting based on NORAD/NEADS tapes, which are a good source for discerning the extent to which the military exercises could have been a part of the 9/11 deception.

I am a NO PLANER and hold that the military exercises were done to facilitate the appearance of jetliners when no such thing was present.

If we start with the first of the nine NORAD tapes preserved by 911depository, we see that the issue of the exercises and their impact upon the unfolding events starts out very early on.

http://911depository.info/NORAD/Tapes/Transcript%20NEADS%20Channel%2002%20MCC%20Op.pdf

Right at pg 4 of the first of the nine listed transcripts, this one for channel 02, we have the following exchange:

0010
1 BACKGROUND MALE: (inaudible).
2 MALE SPEAKER 1: Yeah.
3 BACKGROUND FEMALE: Call commercial.
4 MALE SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm.
5 BACKGROUND FEMALE: (Inaudible).
6 BACKGROUND MALE: I've never seen so much real
7 world happen during an exercise.8 BACKGROUND FEMALE: They want (inaudible).
9 MALE SPEAKER 1: Mm-hmm.
10 BACKGROUND FEMALE: (inaudible) we're showing
11 him at? we're showing him at the last --
12 MALE SPEAKER 1: Speed?
13 BACKGROUND FEMALE: (inaudible).
14 BACKGROUND MALE: (inaudible).
15 BACKGROUND MALE: Lat/long.
16 MALE SPEAKER 1: Lat/long, 41.

OK, so let's discern some meaning from the above, occurring at pg. 4 of the first of the nine transcripts.

Basically, it is reasonable to infer that everything occurring up to that point was thought by NORAD/NEADS personnel to have been "exercise," which would include the simulated hijackings. There was no discernible difference between "exercise" and "real." Let me repeat that:

There was no discernible difference between "exercise" and "real."

Accordingly, bio, posters and lurkers, there can be no certainty that what is portrayed as having happened on 9/11 was real or not. Permit me to suggest posters here combine their discernment of this thread with NO PLANER threads that have generated a combined total of more than one hundred pages of discussion right here in JREF over the course of just this year alone.

See, for instance:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=171082

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=174043

This one is currently generating posts:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=175654

Once again, bio, thanks for posting up an excellent topic.

[BigAl]

Greetings bio .

Even Bio isn't a no-planer.

You are all alone.

[Mr.Herbert]

indeed my girlfriend will be very happy, when I follow your recommendation. :)

So, your hand will be writing letters to the editors instead of <snip>, yeah your girlfriend will be very happy.

[Sabrina]

Oh for Pete's sake...

When I was on active duty, we went on at least one field exercise per quarter. And I was part of just one battery; there were five line batteries, the headquarters unit, and the maintenance company that would all have to go out at varying times in my battalion. There were two battalions in my brigade; that's 14 units all going out at varying times. Then there's the headquarters unit of the brigade; fifteen total subunits in one brigade alone. There were at least six brigades on post, including mine; that's 90 units right there, and we're not even COUNTING the fact that my post included both the basic and advanced courses to train officers PLUS the Sergeants Major academy, all of whom would have to go out to the field as a part of their training at various points. I'm fairly certain there were exercises of some kind going on pretty much on a daily basis.

Now granted, the large scale exercises of the type we're talking about on 9/11 don't happen that often; probably two to three times a year. But they are planned out MONTHS in advance; the logistics of housing, feeding, and training as many people as would be involved in an exercise of that nature are quite literally mind-boggling. And if you're doing it with several branches of the military - pfffft, it's amazing ANYTHING gets done, what with the haranguing and back-and-forth over who's responsible for what. So no, I don't find the fact that there were exercises going on on 9/11 suspicious at all; they planned them out probably at least 10 months in advance, if they were smart. And trust me when I say, the military hates wasting resources; putting together all that crap just to shut it down because a real-world scenario was happening would NOT EVER be approved by anyone in the military. It's a huge waste of resources, time, money, and FSM knows what else.

[progge]

I've never seen so much real world stuff happen during an exercise.

jammonius, you maybe would not catch the difference, but NEADS personnel knew that what was happening was "real world stuff", not an exercise. Actually, the very first call from ZBW cleared up every possible confusion.

[jammonius]

Sabrina,

Thanks for your anecdotal account of personal experience. I think it's helpful in figuring out why so few people were actually required to know what was actually going to happen on 9/11.

Here's how your post addresses that issue:

Oh for Pete's sake...
When I was on active duty, we went on at least one field exercise per quarter. And I was part of just one battery; there were five line batteries, the headquarters unit, and the maintenance company that would all have to go out at varying times in my battalion. There were two battalions in my brigade; that's 14 units all going out at varying times. Then there's the headquarters unit of the brigade; fifteen total subunits in one brigade alone. There were at least six brigades on post, including mine; that's 90 units right there, and we're not even COUNTING the fact that my post included both the basic and advanced courses to train officers PLUS the Sergeants Major academy, all of whom would have to go out to the field as a part of their training at various points. I'm fairly certain there were exercises of some kind going on pretty much on a daily basis.

Precisely. With next to no one knowing exactly what the purpose of any of them actually was. Rather, each person knew solely and only what they needed to know to do their part; i.e., push this or that button, report on what this or that monitor said and so on, all as is clearly revealed in the ebb and flow of the NORAD/NEADS transcripts under review in this thread.


Now granted, the large scale exercises of the type we're talking about on 9/11 don't happen that often; probably two to three times a year. But they are planned out MONTHS in advance; the logistics of housing, feeding, and training as many people as would be involved in an exercise of that nature are quite literally mind-boggling. And if you're doing it with several branches of the military - pfffft, it's amazing ANYTHING gets done, what with the haranguing and back-and-forth over who's responsible for what.

I do hope you realize the significance to this thread of what you, yourself, report on the basis of your own experience and understanding. In the above you accurately describe the scenario and the circumstances that confirm how few people may actually be "in the loop" of knowing what is really going on in a given exercise. The larger they are, the more likely it is that the cloak of secrecy that comes about by virtue of "need to know" and "eyes only" security clearance procedures can literally reduce the number of people (and whether they were military, or governmental or private contractors or foreign nationals, for that matter) who actually knew what was to happen on 9/11 to less than a handful; that would be 5 people. True, many others would have information that would cause them to strongly suspect that "something was up" so to speak, but those people would be too closely associated with the real inner circle to say anything; and, if they did, there would be serious consequences for them and for their careers, in all probability.

In the next outer loop of the concentric layering of "need to know" compartmented information, the ability to know what happened would be even less discernible.


So no, I don't find the fact that there were exercises going on on 9/11 suspicious at all; they planned them out probably at least 10 months in advance, if they were smart.

Your speculation is fine. Your belief is fine. You are, like everyone else, entitled to hold onto your beliefs as long as you can.


And trust me when I say, the military hates wasting resources; putting together all that crap just to shut it down because a real-world scenario was happening would NOT EVER be approved by anyone in the military. It's a huge waste of resources, time, money, and FSM knows what else.

Yeah, once the exercise got started there were probably only a very few people -- maybe only one -- who could actually call it off.

Everyone else was, afterall, just following orders...

Thanks for your post. You told it as it is that time, Sabrina, could you but realize it.

[jammonius]

Do you understand what armed forces actually do when there isn't a war? They train, and they carry out exercises. That's about it.

Look up how many days in 2001 there were some kind of military exercise going on. Then divide by the number of days in 2001. When you've done that, come back and tell us what a spooky coincidence it was that there were exercises on that specific day.

Dave

Why are you engaging in rationalization of the significance of the specific military exercises involved on 9/11 that involved simulated jetliner hijackings?

It would appear you are using "the general" to water down "the specifics."

I don't think you advance your cause very well by doing that; and, instead, you call attention to how perfectly the military exercises fit into the pattern, not of coincidence, but, rather, of the actual plan of 9/11.

Do you see the point for discussion that is being raised here?

In the main, it invites discussion of the specifics of the NORAD/NEADS transcripts and the available information on the specifics of the military exercises.

In my opinion, your best approach would involve reliance on the fact that the specifics of the military exercises are, themselves, still cloaked in secrecy. As you know, the 9/11 Commission was told "not to probe too deeply" and they didn't. All the 9/11 Commission could do for us was let us know that the military exercises took place and that those involved in it didn't tell the truth.

Because the truth was not told, it is inappropriate, in my view, to attribute benigh interpretations to the purpose of the military exercises. Usually, adverse conclusions are drawn against those who do not tell the truth and who are not forthcoming. In this instance, those who participated in the exercises did not say what they really did. That pattern of deception was especially noticeable the higher up the chain one went.

For instance, Cheney and Bush (in that order) did not have to say what they knew, right?

Let me hasten to add, in raising the above rhetorical question, the answer to which is contained in the question, I am not saying they did 9/11, rather, I am saying they did not say what they knew about the military exercises.

Hear this:

The significance of the MILITARY EXERCISES is that they are a means by which the events of 9/11 could actually have been carried out if they were disguised as exercises, but were, in fact "real." The tapes confirm that the difference between what was "real" and what was "exercise" was not readily discernible.

That is huge.

[jammonius]

I never knew debunkers were even willing to entertain this idea. Let's start with if debunkers believe there were any exercises going on during the attacks. Well? Do any of you even admit this much? Because that would be some coincidence.

Good question. Here's hoping you'll get a forthcoming response from those who self-identify as debunkers.

I usually bypass them and address questions of the type you raise to the lurker group instead. In my experience, debunkers are very steadfast. It took over 80+ pages in the Dick Oliver and ALL 43 threads to get just one person, a self-described "lurker" with debunker tendencies, to even admit there are some viable witnesses who say they neither saw nor heard actual jetliners on 9/11. Mind you, I am not suggesting we go there in this thread; rather, I am just raising that as an example of the difficulty in getting debunkers to be forthcoming about indicators that the common storyline of 9/11 is false.

Nice to see you in this thread.

all the best

[fess]

Jammonius;
Have you ever been involved in a large scale military exercise? Statements like this;...

Posted by Jammonius:
"Precisely. With next to no one knowing exactly what the purpose of any of them actually was. Rather, each person knew solely and only what they needed to know to do their part; i.e., push this or that button, report on what this or that monitor said and so on, all as is clearly revealed in the ebb and flow of the NORAD/NEADS transcripts under review in this thread."
...tend to make me believe that you haven't.

[twinstead]

Another thread where jammonius is debating about something he knows NOTHING about.

[MikeW]

Why are you engaging in rationalization of the significance of the specific military exercises involved on 9/11 that involved simulated jetliner hijackings?
Which exercises were those, then?

[Myriad]

Notice carefully what BACKGROUND MALE said:

I've never seen so much real world happen during an exercise.

He is clearly speaking from considerable experience with multiple previous exercises. (If one says "I've never seen X happen during Y" it implies sufficient experience with Y to be familiar with what normally does happen.) So, what he is saying is that this exercise has characteristics that exercises, in his experience, do not have.

Thus BACKGROUND MALE qualifies as our first no-exercise witness.

Since it's now proven by recorded witness statements that there was no exercise on 9/11, we must conclude that all the reported events of 9/11 are actually and indisputably real.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Sabrina]

If memory serves, a lot of those exercises that were being performed on 9/11 were recurring exercises; i.e. ones that are repeated year to year and updated as necessary. And the ones that were new were being performed with the intent of making them recurring exercises.

Jammo is on my ignore list, but from what other people here are saying, he's basically showing his blatant ignorance of how military exercises work, which comes as little to no surprise. The notion that each soldier has only one task to perform is utterly preposterous; the entire purpose of these exercises is to train as many people as possible in as many areas as possible so as to have a well-rounded fighting force. Cross-training, regardless of MOS, is alive and well in the military. Everyone is briefed on the purpose of the exercise and is required to be capable of assuming the duties of someone else at a moment's notice, depending upon circumstances.

Jammo, as I've said, you're on my ignore list, but please; stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about. It just makes you look stupid.

[jammonius]

The following observation stands as unrefuted and unaddressed:

The significance of the MILITARY EXERCISES is that they are a means by which the events of 9/11 could actually have been carried out if they were disguised as exercises, but were, in fact "real."

The tapes confirm that the difference between what was "real" and what was "exercise" was not readily discernible.


That is huge.

Debate about what each individual soldier, sailor, airman, cadet or crew member does or does not do utterly ignores the real point.

Exercises cause people and material to move, computers to get input and give output, planes, or holographic images of them, as it were, to get activated, explosions to take place, be they live ammo, or pyrotechnical displays, as it were, and DEW, etc. etc. All of those things are high tech implements of post modern warfare, all of which places emphasis on stealth and deception, because that is what war is, an exercise in force and in fraud. And, importantly, that is what was being simulated on 9/11, in a context where there was no real way to distinguish "real" from "exercise" and "versa" from "vice."

That is the proper context in which the following statment occurred:

I've never seen so much real world happen during an exercise

There was no discernible difference between what was real and what wasn't.

[carlitos]

There was no discernible difference between what was real and what wasn't.And here we see the crux of jammonius' problem. To sane people, it is indeed possible to discern the difference between reality and science fiction. It was quite discernible (to a sane person) that commercial flights slammed into the ground in PA, the Pentagon, and the WTC towers 1 and 2.

Really, you ought to get some help for your problem. I'm not kidding. Just run these ideas (or your postings here) past a mental-health professional and see what they say. What can it hurt?

[jammonius]

Jammonius;
Have you ever been involved in a large scale military exercise? Statements like this;...

Posted by Jammonius:
"Precisely. With next to no one knowing exactly what the purpose of any of them actually was. Rather, each person knew solely and only what they needed to know to do their part; i.e., push this or that button, report on what this or that monitor said and so on, all as is clearly revealed in the ebb and flow of the NORAD/NEADS transcripts under review in this thread."
...tend to make me believe that you haven't.


I do not play 20 questions games with posters. If there is a point you want to make, would you please come right on out and bring it. Stand firm, don't be shy, obey the rules of posting, if you are so inclined, and say whatever it is you want to say. I will not engage you in your rhetorical ploys.

Clear?

[BigAl]

I do not play 20 questions games with posters. If there is a point you want to make, would you please come right on out and bring it. Stand firm, don't be shy, obey the rules of posting, if you are so inclined, and say whatever it is you want to say. I will not engage you in your rhetorical ploys.

Clear?

Just one question;

Have you ever been involved in a large scale military exercise?

A one word answer, please.

[TSR]

The following observation stands as unrefuted and unaddressed:

The significance of the MILITARY EXERCISES is that they are a means by which the events of 9/11 could actually have been carried out if they were disguised as exercises, but were, in fact "real."

The tapes confirm that the difference between what was "real" and what was "exercise" was not readily discernible.

.
Is refuted by:
.

That is the proper context in which the following statment occurred:

"I've never seen so much real world happen during an exercise."

.
Seems like this person was very clear on the difference between real and exercise, which is why he knew that a lot of "real" was happening during an exercise.

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

[carlitos]

LOL

[bio]

jammonius, you maybe would not catch the difference, but NEADS personnel knew that what was happening was "real world stuff", not an exercise. Actually, the very first call from ZBW cleared up every possible confusion.

NEADS knew, that it lost its fighters to other command structures existing on 9/11. There was confusion, see the statements of the langley pilots.

Borgstrom says they are "all three on different frequencies... and [are] getting orders from a lot of different people."
Filson, 2003, pp. 66

There are different, various official explanation developing during the years for that anomaly, until middle 2003 for example that the fighters were heading towards Flight 93, therefor they were not heading towards Washington D.C around 09:30.:eek:


"Yes, there is an exercise maestro."
Don Arias, 1st Air Force and Continental United States NORAD Region public affairs

Why the transcript of the Norad-Tapes are redacted, that nobody can find out, who could end the exercise-inputs? Who was the maestro?

[beachnut]

NEADS knew, that it lost its fighters to other command structures existing on 9/11. There was confusion, see the statements of the langley pilots.

Borgstrom says they are "all three on different frequencies... and [are] getting orders from a lot of different people."
Filson, 2003, pp. 66

There are different, various official explanation developing during the years for that anomaly, until middle 2003 for example that the fighters were heading towards Flight 93, therefor they were not heading towards Washington D.C around 09:30.:eek:


"Yes, there is an exercise maestro."
Don Arias, 1st Air Force and Continental United States NORAD Region public affairs

Why the transcript of the Norad-Tapes are redacted, that nobody can find out, who could end the exercise-inputs? Who was the maestro?

With posts like this you may never figure out 911. You don't make any sense with all your nonsense.

[carlitos]

I am the maestro.

[TSR]

I am the maestro.
.
Goo Goo Ga Joob
.
ETA-- This is CT: Goo Goo Ga Jew'b
.

[jammonius]

.
Is refuted by:
.

.
Seems like this person was very clear on the difference between real and exercise, which is why he knew that a lot of "real" was happening during an exercise.

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

Your speculation is as good as any, of course. And, you can believe whatever you want to believe, again, of course.

However, the way forward here is to assess the actual NORAD/NEADS tapes and see if they shed any light on the matter, thus eliminating the need, let alone the propriety, of engaging in speculation.

There the issue is put to rest. The fact is, the controllers DID NOT know the difference between real or simulated inputs.

For instance, we all know that Air traffic controller Pete Zalewski was the one who thought he recognized a foreign, Middle Eastern-sounding voice, but does not make out the specific words that are attributed to the conversation he overheard, namely, the famous “we have some planes” declaration.

Zalewski did however respond saying: “Who’s trying to call me?” Seconds later, in the next transmission, the transmission includes: “Nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves you’ll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet,” according to the 9/11 Commission and mainstream media stallwart MSNBC, 9/9/2006.

But Bill Peacock, the FAA director of air traffic services, (confirmed by the FAA transcript) later says:

“We didn’t know where the transmission came from, what was said and who said it.”

And, David Canoles, the FAA’s manager of air traffic evaluations and investigations, adds:

“The broadcast wasn’t attributed to a flight. Nobody gave a flight number.”

The FAA report that is the source of the OP simply says with respect to these claimed transmissions that they came from:

“an unknown origin.”


See: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf
pg. 4/59

So, there you have it. The voice transmissions were of unknown origin, meaning they could not be distinguished as being either real or exercise.

That is the point, posters and lurkers. Radio transmissions that are unidentified, blips on a radar screen that are electronic and therefore subject to simulation, are inherently indistinguishable by the people sitting in front of monitors and/or listening to something coming into there ears via headsets, speakers, phones or similar devices.

Come on posters and lurkers, put on your objective thinking caps.

Once again, I am not questioning, let alone challenging, what people believe.

If you believe jetliners were hijacked on 9/11; fine. Believe as you will for as long as you can and as ardently as is necessary.

The point here is only and solely that the data here under consideration cannot be determined to be either real or exercise.

So, in conclusion, your post refutes nothing and this post confirms that your claim of refutation is not viable on the basis of the available data that is provided here and sourced.

Thanks for your post.

[Unsecured Coins]

Have you ever been involved in a large scale military exercise?

[DGM]

So, in conclusion,

Promises, promises..............

:rolleyes:

[Reheat]

And, you can believe whatever you want to believe, again, of course.

I normally ignore your mad raving lunacy, but you are talking through you ass now without even knowing where your ass is located.

You mix up NEADS and the FAA as if they are the same. It is quite obvious that NEADS personnel knew they were operating "real world" from the initial phone call from Scoggins at Boston. You have absolutely no clue.

As for the "unidentified" radio transmission, there are such things as logical conclusions that can be drawn by sane rational people. The fact that you can't or won't is a testament that you are neither.

[beachnut]

Your speculation is ...

Why are your posts equal to jet engine parts are Plymouth wheel cover delusions? How are you so consistent at not posting anything rational? Are you making fun of insane people like Judy Wood and Dr. Jones?

The nonsense you posted made no sense. Can you try to be clear up what you are trying to say and what it means relative to the topic started by another person who has no clue what happen on 911 after 8 years?


You never get anything right about 911.
There was no discernible difference between what was real and what wasn't. For you reality does not exist as you post lies and moronic analysis on 911.

[Sabrina]

Okay, I admit to femalish curiosity and clicked on one of Jammo's posts to see it despite his being on my ignore list.

Remind me not to do that again; the stupid burned my retinas.

Jammo, I'll address you directly just to point out one little issue with your conclusion... here it comes... are you ready?

*ahem*

NEADS AND FAA ARE TWO ENTIRELY SEPARATE ENTITIES; NEADS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE HEARD THE TRANSMISSION YOU REFER TO IN POST #50 BECAUSE THEY WERE, AT THE TIME, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE EXERCISE TRANSMISSIONS. FAA WAS THE ENTITY WHICH HEARD THAT TRANSMISSION.

You seem to be enamored of different colored and sized fonts; thought I'd speak to you in your language. Next time, I highly suggest you get your facts straight before you start talking out of your butt.

[jammonius]

Okay, I admit to femalish curiosity and clicked on one of Jammo's posts to see it despite his being on my ignore list.

Remind me not to do that again; the stupid burned my retinas.

Jammo, I'll address you directly just to point out one little issue with your conclusion... here it comes... are you ready?

*ahem*

NEADS AND FAA ARE TWO ENTIRELY SEPARATE ENTITIES; NEADS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE HEARD THE TRANSMISSION YOU REFER TO IN POST #50 BECAUSE THEY WERE, AT THE TIME, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE EXERCISE TRANSMISSIONS. FAA WAS THE ENTITY WHICH HEARD THAT TRANSMISSION.

You seem to be enamored of different colored and sized fonts; thought I'd speak to you in your language. Next time, I highly suggest you get your facts straight before you start talking out of your butt.

Usually, when someone does a drumroll of sorts, like, say, use of an *ahem* a "gotcha" game is likely being introduced. As you may know, Sabrina, I do not play "gotcha" games. I am not interested in who is winning/losing/catching up/falling behind/way ahead or behind or whatever.

I prefer to let the data, or the lack of it, to stand or fall on its own merit, as each poster or lurker presents it, and to assess the sources for reliability and cogency and to base my discussion accordingly. The discussion centers on the claims that can be made from the available data and the drawing of conclusions, reasonably and consistently.

This process is, to me, an exchange of information, I am not trying to prove you wrong or me right. That is what others, like say, Lapman, does; you know "Lapman right, jammonius wrong". I hope that sort of posting doesn't appeal to you overmuch.

OK, with that frame of reference in mind, let's take a look at what your post offers:


NEADS AND FAA ARE TWO ENTIRELY SEPARATE ENTITIES; NEADS COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE HEARD THE TRANSMISSION YOU REFER TO IN POST #50 BECAUSE THEY WERE, AT THE TIME, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE EXERCISE TRANSMISSIONS. FAA WAS THE ENTITY WHICH HEARD THAT TRANSMISSION.

I think you are attempting to take comfort in being able to assert a distinction, resulting in a false choice, and in something that makes no difference at all.

NEADS and FAA had signficant overlap in connection with the events of 9/11, including direct discussion. Neither could distinguish "real" from "exercise" and both had data to work with that made no sense and that could not be reliably determined to be correct or incorrect, related to exercises or not.

Here's how it worked:

Members of staff at NORAD/NEADS had difficulty locating Flight 11 and other aircraft on their radar screens. Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins of NEADS will say that when the FAA first calls and reports the first hijacking “He [FAA] gave me the latitude and longitude of that track… there was nothing there.”

The foregoing is, then, clearly consistent with false imagery being used under the quise of an exercise that was real, alright, real in the sense that it was designed to make it appear as if jetliners were hijacked when, in fact, no such thing happened as there were no jetliners involved, all is more fully substantiated by the observable and reported data supplied by the eye and ear witnesses and by the stupidly false video imagery that absolutely did not correspond with the proper sounds that should have been associated with the event, not to mention the crash and explosive dynamics that were entirely consistent with Evan Fairbanks descriptive language of:

[B]"a bad special effect."

Colin Scoggins, the military liaison at the FAA’s Boston Center, later recalls: “I was giving NEADS accurate location information on at least five instances where AA 11 was, yet they could never identify him.… I originally gave them an F/R/D, which is a fix/radial/distance from a known location; they could not identify the target. They requested latitude/longitudes, which I gave them; they still could not identify the AA 11.… I gave them 20 [miles] south of Albany heading south at a high rate of speed, 600 knots, then another call at 50 south of Albany.”

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a837unablelocate#a837unablelocate

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/th_267_dawne_deskins2050081722-9049.jpg?t=1275612155
LtCol. Dawne Deskins didn't have a clue what was real and what was exercise.

For a more complete assessment of Deskins and of the military exercises taking place, including reference to use of simulating hijackings see:

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a630vigilantguardian#a630vigilant guardian


all the best

[Unsecured Coins]

Have you ever been involved in a large scale military exercise?

no answer yet

[jammonius]

I normally ignore your mad raving lunacy, but you are talking through you ass now without even knowing where your ass is located.

You mix up NEADS and the FAA as if they are the same. It is quite obvious that NEADS personnel knew they were operating "real world" from the initial phone call from Scoggins at Boston. You have absolutely no clue.

As for the "unidentified" radio transmission, there are such things as logical conclusions that can be drawn by sane rational people. The fact that you can't or won't is a testament that you are neither.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make and/or how you are trying to make it. That is because you rely too heavily on simple emotional rant, as is clearly evident in your use of playground language and tactics.

Can you, perhaps, rethink whatever it is you are trying to say and post it a bit more cogently?

take care

[jammonius]

no answer yet


http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5995744&postcount=42

[gumboot]

Two points, that immediately settle this issue.

a) "Inputs" doesn't mean what you think it means.

b) NEADS SOCCs and ROCCs have two computer systems; one for real-world operations and one for exercises and simulations. There's no cross-over.

[jammonius]

Two points, that immediately settle this issue.

a) "Inputs" doesn't mean what you think it means.

b) NEADS SOCCs and ROCCs have two computer systems; one for real-world operations and one for exercises and simulations. There's no cross-over.

Greetings, it is good to have your input into this thread (no pun ... :)

Source your claim "there's no cross-over" if you would please.

all the best

[gumboot]

Greetings, it is good to have your input into this thread (no pun ... :)

Source your claim "there's no cross-over" if you would please.

all the best



I do not have the most remote interest in engaging in discussion with you. You have demonstrated a fundamentally inability to learn, so I would be wasting my time.

Neither NORAD nor the FAA run training or exercises on their "real world" computer systems. This is a fact. Deal with it.

Your talk of "exercise transmissions" to the FAA is a prime example of your failure to apply critical thinking. The FAA were not conducting an exercise of any kind, and when they do conduct training, this is done in a physically separate room to the ATC control room. When the FAA say they don't know where the transmission came from, this means they don't know what specific flight it came from - because the speaker did not identify their flight. What they do know is that it came from a real airliner.

Even pretending the FAA were involved in NORAD's exercise (which they weren't), there were no exercise transmissions to receive because it was a Command Post exercise, which does not involve flying units.

Secondly, the NORAD exercise never happened. It was scheduled to begin at 0900 but the hijacking of AA11 occurred first and the exercise was cancelled.

These are all very basic facts that are readily available to anyone who takes the time to learn anything about the matter. The fact that you haven't demonstrates you're not interesting in determining facts, which leads me to the undeniable conclusion that engaging in discussion with you is a complete waste of my time.

[jammonius]

I do not have the most remote interest in engaging in discussion with you. You have demonstrated a fundamentally inability to learn, so I would be wasting my time.

I'm sorry you have found it necessary to engage in the above exchange. That said, and consistent with your expressed desire, I will not expect a further reply from you.


Neither NORAD nor the FAA run training or exercises on their "real world" computer systems. This is a fact. Deal with it.

I do not think you have a basis that is either expressed in reason or supported by anything whatsoever, other than your declaration, for the above statement.

I do not question people's beliefs. You are free to believe anything you find necessary to believe for as long as you need to believe it.

But, as the record stands, you have failed and you have refused to source your claim. It is, therefore, unsubstantiated and lacks any support, other than that you have said it and have said with some umbrage, as it were. Umbrage does not constitute substantiation. Umbrage is rooted in one's emotional makeup.


Your talk of "exercise transmissions" to the FAA is a prime example of your failure to apply critical thinking. The FAA were not conducting an exercise of any kind, and when they do conduct training, this is done in a physically separate room to the ATC control room. When the FAA say they don't know where the transmission came from, this means they don't know what specific flight it came from - because the speaker did not identify their flight. What they do know is that it came from a real airliner.

The above is mildly informative after a fashion. However, as to the subject matter of my posts, it misses the point entirely.

I have plainly said:

"The significance of the MILITARY EXERCISES is that they are a means by which the events of 9/11 could actually have been carried out if they were disguised as exercises, but were, in fact "real."

The tapes confirm that the difference between what was "real" and what was "exercise" was not readily discernible."


You appear to miss, entirely, the issue of DECEPTION, which is, indeed, the essence of 9/11. In some ways, I regret that it does not appear likely that you and I will be able to have an ongoing discussion. The emotion of 9/11, centered in the need of some to attribute only the best of motives to either governmental entities or the MIC or some combination of those entity structures serves to preclude rational discussion of what the evidence shows happened on 9/11. I get that and I do not mind it at all.


Even pretending the FAA were involved in NORAD's exercise (which they weren't), there were no exercise transmissions to receive because it was a Command Post exercise, which does not involve flying units.

I'm sorry, Gumboot, but the above misses the mark by a mile. You are engaging in an assumption-riddled attempt to resurrect a claim that I have shown rather conclusively; namely, that it was not possible to distinguish "real" from "exercise" amongst those who were tasked with tracking presumed jetliners that were not actually real. My claims are based on data and on assessment of it. That and that only.


Secondly, the NORAD exercise never happened. It was scheduled to begin at 0900 but the hijacking of AA11 occurred first and the exercise was cancelled.

Your above quoted assertion is contradicted by the following information:

"Lieutenant Colonel Dawne Deskins and other day shift employees at NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) in Rome, NY, start their workday. [6:30AM]NORAD is conducting a week-long, large-scale exercise called Vigilant Guardian. [Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002] Deskins is regional mission crew chief for the Vigilant Guardian exercise. [ABC News, 9/11/2002] "
...

Accounts by participants vary on whether 9/11 is the second, third, or fourth day of the exercise. [Code One Magazine, 1/2002; Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002; Ottawa Citizen, 9/11/2002] Vigilant Guardian is a command post exercise (CPX), and in at least some previous years was conducted in conjunction with Stratcom’s Global Guardian exercise and a US Space Command exercise called Apollo Guardian. [US Congress, n.d.; GlobalSecurity (.org), 4/14/2002; Arkin, 2005, pp. 545] All of NORAD is participating in Vigilant Guardian on 9/11. [Aviation Week and Space Technology, 6/3/2002]
Exercise Includes Simulated Hijacking - Vanity Fair reports that the “day’s exercise” (presumably Vigilant Guardian) is “designed to run a range of scenarios, including a ‘traditional’ simulated hijack in which politically motivated perpetrators commandeer an aircraft, land on a Cuba-like island, and seek asylum.” [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006]

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a630vigilantguardian#a630vigilant guardian


These are all very basic facts that are readily available to anyone who takes the time to learn anything about the matter. The fact that you haven't demonstrates you're not interesting in determining facts, which leads me to the undeniable conclusion that engaging in discussion with you is a complete waste of my time.

Gumboot, it is ironic that you refuse to source your claims, on the one hand, and then post up the above, on the other.

take care

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, you've sold me jammonius.

You've demonstrated that there are significant holes and lapses within the official account of 9/11 to cast reasonable doubt onto the official narrative.

Now what do we do?

I have a silk-screener in my garage, would that help?

[TSR]

The fact is, the controllers DID NOT know the difference between real or simulated inputs.

.
Then why does your quote make a distinction between "real world" and "exercise?"
.

[fess]

I do not play 20 questions games with posters. If there is a point you want to make, would you please come right on out and bring it. Stand firm, don't be shy, obey the rules of posting, if you are so inclined, and say whatever it is you want to say. I will not engage you in your rhetorical ploys.

Clear?

Why is it that I knew this would be your answer. Your answer is just another load of rhetorical bovine defecation at the very best.

Your lack of an answer only proves that you haven’t been in any of the aforementioned types of exercises, whether they be command or operational types.

Stand firm you say? I do, and I am by no means shy, as you may soon find out. And, if I were to tell you exactly what I want to tell you, I would know what it is to be suspended. However, I do know one thing is certainly correct… you are a liar, and a fraud!

Is that clear, big boy!

[bio]

(...)

Secondly, the NORAD exercise never happened. It was scheduled to begin at 0900 but the hijacking of AA11 occurred first and the exercise was cancelled.

(...)

that is not true, as we know from the Norad-tapes and even from Richard Myers, he talked with Richard Clark around 9:25:

Richard Clarke asks Joint Chiefs of Staff Vice Chairman Richard Myers, "I assume NORAD has scrambled fighters and AWACS. How many? Where?" Myers, who is at the Pentagon, replies, "Not a pretty picture, Dick. We are in the middle of Vigilant Warrior, a NORAD exercise, but... Otis has launched two birds toward New York. Langley is trying to get two up now [toward Washington]. The AWACS are at Tinker and not on alert." Clarke asks, "Okay, how long to CAP [combat air patrol] over DC?" Myers replies, "Fast as we can. Fifteen minutes?"
Clarke, 2004, pp. 5

IF you have a clue, what the "exercise-inputs" were about, and who could cancel them (it is redacted in the transcript), provide meaning- and truthfully posts.

[Sam.I.Am]

that is not true, as we know from the Norad-tapes and even from Richard Myers, he talked with Richard Clark around 9:25:

Richard Clarke asks Joint Chiefs of Staff Vice Chairman Richard Myers, "I assume NORAD has scrambled fighters and AWACS. How many? Where?" Myers, who is at the Pentagon, replies, "Not a pretty picture, Dick. We are in the middle of Vigilant Warrior, a NORAD exercise, but... Otis has launched two birds toward New York. Langley is trying to get two up now [toward Washington]. The AWACS are at Tinker and not on alert." Clarke asks, "Okay, how long to CAP [combat air patrol] over DC?" Myers replies, "Fast as we can. Fifteen minutes?"
Clarke, 2004, pp. 5

IF you have a clue, what the "exercise-inputs" were about, and who could cancel them (it is redacted in the transcript), provide meaning- and truthfully posts.

Vigilant Guardian, not Vigilant Warrior. Exercises run for days and can even go on for weeks. They are broken down into individual drills. No drills were running yet when the hijackings took place. The people who were supposed to run and monitor that days planned drills were not in position to initiate the drills when NORAD was first told of the hijackings.

Major Nasypany was out taking a walk when the first reports came in and had to be called back to take command of the situation. One of his first comments was that the drill wasn't supposed to start for an hour (he said this at ~0843 according to the NORAD tapes).

Have you ever participated in military drills? I have, thousands of them over 8+ years. Most were initiated internally but many were also a part of larger exercises. In general the first hint of a day of drills was in the Plan Of the Day (POD) where it says something along the lines of "Ships Drills (0900 to 1100 & 1300 to 1700)", this was usually in the POD 4 or 5 days a week. We weren't told what type of drills to expect or where they would be focused but we could guess based upon whatever upcoming major inspection we had coming up (Weapons or Engineering) and that there were certain mandatory drills that had an expiration date (once a week, once a month ect).

People who go on about the drills on 9/11 have no clue as to how they are planned, how they are run, who initiates and monitors them and a myriad of other details ranging from the mundane to specific requirements for how a drill must be run (including when a drill must be terminated). Absolutely clueless.

[MikeW]

that is not true, as we know from the Norad-tapes and even from Richard Myers, he talked with Richard Clark around 9:25
Best not rely on Clarke's timeline, it's flawed for multiple reasons. Myers was talking to Max Cleland at this time, for instance, both he and Cleland say so.

[JoeyDonuts]

Exactly.

A ship or military unit may be put into a "training environment" for multiple days at times, with the actuall drill or drill(s) commencing at any time determined by the Combat Systems/Engineering/Force Protection Training Teams. This is USN "fleet" lingo, but similar things exist in the USAF/USA/USMC.

But, I'm sure bio and jammonius know that from experience.

[BigAl]

I do not play 20 questions games with posters. If there is a point you want to make, would you please come right on out and bring it. Stand firm, don't be shy, obey the rules of posting, if you are so inclined, and say whatever it is you want to say. I will not engage you in your rhetorical ploys.

Clear?

Cut and paste much?

[Dave Rogers]

If memory serves, a lot of those exercises that were being performed on 9/11 were recurring exercises; i.e. ones that are repeated year to year and updated as necessary. And the ones that were new were being performed with the intent of making them recurring exercises.

Wasn't at least one of them being done in order to shadow Russian exercises going on at the same time, with the subtext that there would be defences in place and ready to fight if Russia should suddenly choose to turn its exercises into something else? In which case, anyone claiming the exercises were a cover for an inside job is, in effect, claiming that Russia was also complicit in 9/11.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Okay, I admit to femalish curiosity and clicked on one of Jammo's posts to see it despite his being on my ignore list.

Remind me not to do that again; the stupid burned my retinas.

I keep doing that too. I think we need some kind of support group.

"Hi, my name's Dave, and I'm a jammoholic. "

"Hi Dave"

"I haven't viewed a jammonius post for two days now."

Supportive applause from the room.

"And with your help, I hope to make it through the whole week!"

Dave

[progge]

NEADS knew, that it lost its fighters to other command structures existing on 9/11. There was confusion, see the statements of the langley pilots.

Borgstrom says they are "all three on different frequencies... and [are] getting orders from a lot of different people."
Filson, 2003, pp. 66

There are different, various official explanation developing during the years for that anomaly, until middle 2003 for example that the fighters were heading towards Flight 93, therefor they were not heading towards Washington D.C around 09:30.:eek:

:confused:

Why the transcript of the Norad-Tapes are redacted, that nobody can find out, who could end the exercise-inputs?

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5978051&postcount=15

Bolded something for you.

[BigAl]

NEADS knew, that it lost its fighters to other command structures existing on 9/11. There was confusion, see the statements of the langley pilots.


No planes or pilots were "lost" for the purposes of air defense for training or any other reason.

[bio]

your answers are disappointing empty of rational arguments.

[gumboot]

See people, this is why I don't bother any more. This thread is filled wall-to-wall with displays of a gross refusal to engage brain matter.

Why waste what precious little time one has on this earth bashing one's proverbial head against a proverbial brick wall?

See, earlier, my statement that the exercise had not started, and was not scheduled to start until 0900. There's ample evidence of this. Aside from statements in interviews from NORAD staff, there's the evidence from the tapes themselves - the Ops Floor was in "standby" mode at the time of the first hijacking. The MCC wasn't even there, and had to be paged (along with most of the other Ops staff). This is clear in the audio tapes.

Showing that it was the 2nd or 5th or 20th day of the exercise doesn't undermine this. These exercises do not run 24HR. They're conducted in normal work hours. 0900 to 1700 each day, or similar. Yes, Vigilant Guardian had been running for a couple of days. No, it had not started for that day.

It takes only the most basic engagement of brain matter to grasp this obvious and clearly demonstrated fact. Those who fail to grasp it do so through their own refusal to seek fact, favouring instead to remain ignorant, because from a position of ignorance they can speculate to their heart's content.

[DGM]

But, as the record stands, you have failed and you have refused to source your claim. It is, therefore, unsubstantiated and lacks any support, other than that you have said it ...........

Look at the pot calling the kettle black! You have just accused gumboot of doing exactly what you have done in every single post you've made. The difference with him is he can back-up what he says, he only chooses not to waste his time on you (and I can't blame him).

[gumboot]

IF you have a clue, what the "exercise-inputs" were about, and who could cancel them (it is redacted in the transcript), provide meaning- and truthfully posts.



In NORAD speak an "input" is any data fed manually into the system, and is the responsibility of the Manual Input Technician. They don't input false data however; they input real-world data that isn't automatically fed into the system. The MIT answers to the Air Surveillance Technician.

In the case of exercises, the correct term is "simulation", and all simulated inputs are the responsibility of the Simulation Supervisor, who heads the Simulation Section (a team consisting of various members of the SOCC, created specifically for the exercise in question).

The Simulation Supervisor answers to the MCC, while on all matters relating to the running of the SAOC the MCC is in command under authority of the SAOC Director and the Battle Commander. In the case of 9/11 it appears that Nasypany (the MCC) was himself the Simulation Supervisor, while Dawne Deskins, Assistant Director of the SAOC, was reportedly the Exercise Director.

In all instances NEADS were not required in any way to gain permission or approval from higher command before terminating any simulations that might have been scheduled.

All of this is sourced from ACCI 13-SAOC "Air Defense Command And Control Operations".

[dafydd]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5995744&postcount=42

Why can you never answer yes or no to a simple question? What is the matter with you? Let's try again,have you ever been involved in a military exercise? Yes or no?

[jammonius]

See people, this is why I don't bother any more. This thread is filled wall-to-wall with displays of a gross refusal to engage brain matter.

Why waste what precious little time one has on this earth bashing one's proverbial head against a proverbial brick wall?

Gumboot, is it your claim that you are smarter than are either other posters or those posters who disagree with you? If so, what interest are you seeking to advance by making the claim that you are smart and others are not?


See, earlier, my statement that the exercise had not started, and was not scheduled to start until 0900. There's ample evidence of this. Aside from statements in interviews from NORAD staff, there's the evidence from the tapes themselves - the Ops Floor was in "standby" mode at the time of the first hijacking. The MCC wasn't even there, and had to be paged (along with most of the other Ops staff). This is clear in the audio tapes.

I do wish you would consider sourcing your claims concerning timing. They are not at all persuasive standing solely on the basis of you claiming they are in the transcripts without citing a reference.

What is unquestionably in the transcripts is what has been quoted that makes it clear there are both exercise inputs involved as well as obvious and apparent uncertainty about whether what is seen is real or not real, thus confirming, without more, that the ability to distinguish what was real and what was not real was nonexistent.

This latter issue -- that the inability to distinguish real from unreal served to provide a mechanism by which 9/11 could have been carried out has been ignored by you, unaddressed by you and left to stand unrefuted by you.

Mind you, post as you see fit to choose. You do not have to answer anything you are not inclined to answer.


Showing that it was the 2nd or 5th or 20th day of the exercise doesn't undermine this. These exercises do not run 24HR. They're conducted in normal work hours. 0900 to 1700 each day, or similar. Yes, Vigilant Guardian had been running for a couple of days. No, it had not started for that day.

Yet another of your declarations that stands both unsubstantiated and contradicted by what has been shown to exist in the transcripts and in the records, AS QUOTED in the thread. You, on the otherhand, have not quoted anything to back up your declarations.

Look, everyone knows you have examined NORAD quite closely and that is why the thread could benefit from your input. Specifics matter, however, and you have been short on them here.


It takes only the most basic engagement of brain matter to grasp this obvious and clearly demonstrated fact. Those who fail to grasp it do so through their own refusal to seek fact, favouring instead to remain ignorant, because from a position of ignorance they can speculate to their heart's content.

Even if you demonstrate that an exercise was scheduled to start at a later time, you do not dent in the least the fact that exercise inputs were apparent and were acknowledged. Furthermore, and come to think of it, by declaring that the exercise start time was later, rather than earlier, a convenient factor that would allow "plausible denial" would be created.

I'm afraid, Gumboot, your reliance on "start time" is about as weak a response as one could possibly have imagined. I am compelled to ask, at the risk of offending you, "is "start time' the best argument you can come up with?

If so, your position is all but untenable, imho.

all the best

[jammonius]

In NORAD speak an "input" is any data fed manually into the system, and is the responsibility of the Manual Input Technician. They don't input false data however; they input real-world data that isn't automatically fed into the system. The MIT answers to the Air Surveillance Technician.

Please source your assertion "they don't input false data." Afterall, simulations are, by definition, false data.


In the case of exercises, the correct term is "simulation", and all simulated inputs are the responsibility of the Simulation Supervisor, who heads the Simulation Section (a team consisting of various members of the SOCC, created specifically for the exercise in question).

The above, while interesting, sheds no light whatsoever on what either did or did not happen on 9/11, other than to re-confirm that simulation of data is an element of exercises.


The Simulation Supervisor answers to the MCC, while on all matters relating to the running of the SAOC the MCC is in command under authority of the SAOC Director and the Battle Commander. In the case of 9/11 it appears that Nasypany (the MCC) was himself the Simulation Supervisor, while Dawne Deskins, Assistant Director of the SAOC, was reportedly the Exercise Director.

Yet again we are presented with interesting detail but it sheds no light on what happened. Note, too, that the person you refer to as "Nasypany" held the relatively unremarkable rank of major, outranked by Deskins, who I have elsewhere mentioned prominently and provided a picture of.

This is Major Kevin Nasypany:
http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/th_698_kevin_nasypany2050081722-12818.jpg?t=1275672713

As to Maj.Nasypany, the following is said:

"When the FAA’s Boston Center first contacts NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) to notify it of the hijacking of Flight 11 (see (8:37 a.m.) September 11, 2001), personnel there initially mistake the hijacking for a simulation as part of an exercise.
Lieutenant Colonel Dawne Deskins, mission crew chief for the Vigilant Guardian exercise currently taking place (see (6:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001), will later say that initially she and everybody else at NEADS think the call from Boston Center is part of Vigilant Guardian. [Newhouse News Service, 1/25/2002] Although most of the personnel on the NEADS operations floor have no idea what the day’s exercise is supposed to entail, most previous major NORAD exercises included a hijack scenario. The day’s exercise is in fact scheduled to include a simulated hijacking later on. [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006]
[U]Major Kevin Nasypany, the NEADS mission crew commander, had helped design the day’s exercise. Thinking the reported hijacking is part of it, he actually says out loud, “The hijack’s not supposed to be for another hour.” [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006]

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a837mistakeforexercise#a837mistak eforexercise

The above directly contradicts the claim the exercise was not then and there taking place. The above also serves to call attention to Maj.nasypany's relatively low rank and his expression that something was happening that he was not aware of as being scheduled for that time. The entire quote is consistent with exercise and consistent with unknown layers of deception being involved.


In all instances NEADS were not required in any way to gain permission or approval from higher command before terminating any simulations that might have been scheduled.

All of this is sourced from ACCI 13-SAOC "Air Defense Command And Control Operations".

The above does not account for either what happened, or for the element of deception, at all. Besides, yet again, there is no source given for the information mentioned.

Would you please consider being a bit more forthcoming here, even if we are all, or maybe just me, one or more dummies in your estimation.

thanks

[Senenmut]

you just have to listen to the norad tapes to find out what was redacted.

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?
male speaker 10: 6180?
male speaker 1: you bet. he'll give you that.

maybe gumboot can tell us who's number that is.....

[bio]

In NORAD speak an "input" is any data fed manually into the system, and is the responsibility of the Manual Input Technician. They don't input false data however; they input real-world data that isn't automatically fed into the system. The MIT answers to the Air Surveillance Technician.

In the case of exercises, the correct term is "simulation", and all simulated inputs are the responsibility of the Simulation Supervisor, who heads the Simulation Section (a team consisting of various members of the SOCC, created specifically for the exercise in question).

The Simulation Supervisor answers to the MCC, while on all matters relating to the running of the SAOC the MCC is in command under authority of the SAOC Director and the Battle Commander. In the case of 9/11 it appears that Nasypany (the MCC) was himself the Simulation Supervisor, while Dawne Deskins, Assistant Director of the SAOC, was reportedly the Exercise Director.

In all instances NEADS were not required in any way to gain permission or approval from higher command before terminating any simulations that might have been scheduled.

All of this is sourced from ACCI 13-SAOC "Air Defense Command And Control Operations".

Do you really want to say, that Major Nasypany was the exercise-maestro and was still creating exercise-inputs around 10:20?

progge:
"From the Tapes, however, it’s pretty clear that the NEADS staff was focused on the real-world happenings, and everyone knew them to be real-world happenings. (Just to get a sense of perspective: Around the same time someone on the NEADS Op Floor jokes about the bomb-on-board warning from UA 93 “if this is an exercise input, this is a good one”, and is told to “save this kind of BS“ (MCC TK, channel 3).)
So the claim that NEADS would still generate exercise inputs at 10:12 EDT makes not much sense." post 10 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5976735&postcount=10)

[bio]

you just have to listen to the norad tapes to find out what was redacted.

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?
male speaker 10: 6180?
male speaker 1: you bet. he'll give you that.

maybe gumboot can tell us who's number that is.....

When you know more ... please share your information.

[beachnut]

... How could it be, when according the official conspiracy theory, all exercises were stopped after the second crash around 09:03? ... ... another dumb question. When I need to stop my car, I find it usually happens after I apply my brakes.

All exercises were stopped after the second crash. I have birthdays after my birth. I get up after the sun comes up.

Sometimes I tell my grandkids to stop splashing and it may happen (stop splashing) after I tell them to stop, or may happen a little later after I tell them to stop again, or the first time they are given the word, etc. But always after.

It depends on the what the meaning of 'is' is, and what after is. (like, following in time )

Why does 911 truth make up delusional ideas which mean nothing?

What does it mean? What does your OP mean for your delusions on 911? At least you have the delusion spreading expertise of the expert who says jet engines are wheel covers; now you are complete.

[TSR]

.
Then why does your quote make a distinction between "real world" and "exercise?"
.
.
You seem to have missed responding to this, Jamm....

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

[jammonius]

.
You seem to have missed responding to this, Jamm....

I mean, otherwise, he'd've said, "I've never seen so much real world happen during real world stuff" or "I've never seen so much exercise happen during an exercise."

Or perhaps, "Gee, it's so confusing -- was that real world or was that exercise?"
.

Would you please state what your assumptions are about the meaning of that quoted statement, together with the context you rely on.

Basically, TSR, I think you may be engaging in a process that requires reinvention of the wheel, so to speak.

It is not controversial that those involved in NORAD and FAA couldn't distinguish real from exercise. I would have thought the main debunker position on this had long ago conceded that point, made a "so what" declaration about it, and moved on.

Are you still arguing whether NORAD and FAA operatives could or could not distinguish real from unreal? :confused:

[progge]

It is not controversial that those involved in NORAD and FAA couldn't distinguish real from exercise.

It is not controversial that NEADS staff could easily distinguish real from exercise. One question - one answer - problem solved in seconds:

08:37 ETD, FAA ZBW, MOS Position
“Hi. Boston Center TMU. We have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.”
“Is this real-world or exercise?”
“No, this is not an exercise, not a test.”

08:38 EDT, NEADS, ID Op
“What was that?”
”Is that real world?”
”Real world hijack.”
”Cool!”

08:38 EDT, NEADS MCC Op
„Yeah. So you'd have to get up in the air (inaudible) vector you North (inaudible).“
“Real world (inaudible).“
„Okay (inaudible). Okay.“

08:43 EDT, MCC Op
“I've never seen so much real world stuff happen during an exercise.”

08:44 EDT, MCC Op
„This is exercise?“
“No, this is the real world.”

08:45 EDT, ID Op
“New York Amos”
“Huntress ID.”
“Are you aware of the possible hijack of American 11?”
“No, I'm not.”
“ Boston Center, ma'am, we just got information there is a real-world hijack, American 11. He is headed -- he was 40 miles north of JFK, headed towards JFK.”

08:52 EDT, MCC Op
„Possible news that a 737 just hit the world Trade Center. This is real world. And we're trying to confirm this. And we're trying to confirm this. Okay. Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, JFK area as best as you can. Make sure that the FAA clears you a route all the way through. This is what we got to do. Okay. Just press with us. It looks like somebody -- it looks like this guy could have hit the world Trade Center."

The FAA didn´t participate in the NORAD CPXs scheduled for that day, so you won´t hear any such `real-world´-confirmations on the FAA Tapes. The whole exercise procedure was just a non-issue for them.

[DGM]

Would you please state what your assumptions are about the meaning of that quoted statement...................



Would you start doing what you ask of others?

[jammonius]

Post # 89 might serve as a very useful exercise for posters and lurkers; here's how the that would work:

1 Read post # 89

2 Then, ask yourself: Can I distinguish what is meant by "real" and what is meant by "exercise" in that post?

[gumboot]

Post # 89 might serve as a very useful exercise for posters and lurkers; here's how the that would work:

1 Read post # 89

2 Then, ask yourself: Can I distinguish what is meant by "real" and what is meant by "exercise" in that post?

Easily.

[TSR]

Are you still arguing whether NORAD and FAA operatives could or could not distinguish real from unreal?

.
No, the quote you've cited makes it crystal clear that they knew the difference between "real world" and "exercise" -- because they had not seen so much "real world" as a distinct entity from "exercise."

Which makes your lame attempts to imply (you seem to be very careful not to make any actual claims -- because when you do, you have to run away from supporting them: I'm still waiting for those "range of lethality" of DEW details which would cause Edna to jump to her death) that there was any confusion as lame as all of the other attempts you make to indict thousands of people of murder, none of which you have the balls to confront directly.
.

[bio]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

[funk de fino]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Dog Town]

Easily.

That's' gotcha' leave a mark!

[ProBonoShill]

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/911-live-the-norad-tapes-transcript

The "input" could fly into a building according to NEADS? These exercise-inputs should end?

Congratulations, you've just discoverd two more people to add to the 8 127 persons responsible for this mass conspiracy.

Either that or you don't understand military terminology.

I'm going with the latter.

[Cheap Shot]

Members of staff at NORAD/NEADS had difficulty locating Flight 11 and other aircraft on their radar screens. Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins of NEADS will say that when the FAA first calls and reports the first hijacking “He [FAA] gave me the latitude and longitude of that track… there was nothing there.”

The foregoing is, then, clearly consistent with false imagery being used under the quise of an exercise that was real, alright, real in the sense that it was designed to make it appear as if jetliners were hijacked when, in fact, no such thing happened as there were no jetliners involved, all is more fully substantiated by the observable and reported data supplied by the eye and ear witnesses and by the stupidly false video imagery that absolutely did not correspond with the proper sounds that should have been associated with the event, not to mention the crash and explosive dynamics that were entirely consistent with Evan Fairbanks descriptive language of:

[B]"a bad special effect."

Colin Scoggins, the military liaison at the FAA’s Boston Center, later recalls: “I was giving NEADS accurate location information on at least five instances where AA 11 was, yet they could never identify him.… I originally gave them an F/R/D, which is a fix/radial/distance from a known location; they could not identify the target. They requested latitude/longitudes, which I gave them; they still could not identify the AA 11.… I gave them 20 [miles] south of Albany heading south at a high rate of speed, 600 knots, then another call at 50 south of Albany.”

Source: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a837unablelocate#a837unablelocate

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/album2/th_267_dawne_deskins2050081722-9049.jpg?t=1275612155
LtCol. Dawne Deskins didn't have a clue what was real and what was exercise.

For a more complete assessment of Deskins and of the military exercises taking place, including reference to use of simulating hijackings see:

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a630vigilantguardian#a630vigilant guardian


all the bestWow, I love your research, you grab a picture of Dawn Deskins and state the rank she is now. It's funny when I talked to her 9-11 that she was a major, how did you put that when mentioning Naspany's name "an unremarkable rank of major" I don't ehre you come from but a major in the military isn't that bad of rank. Yet you make a big deal about her out ranking him...

I wish i had the time pick your claims apart tonight but I don't. But quickly you throw statements out there that are so ironic, and leave it at that. Peter Z. at Boston Center never knew where the call came from, do you think he figured it out after AAl11 never responded to his altitude clearance to Flight Level "Three Five Zero" or do you think he is still scrathcing his head as he sits retired in South Boston. Do you think after I had a conversation with MAJOR Deskins and told her it was "Real World", not an exercise that she figured it out sometime that day. You act like thier statement about "two seconds" of thier lives was what they beleived all day long on 9-11.

Your remarks about exercises and how this all played into the evil 3 or 5 people in the government that pulled this off is a joke. I work one end of the exercises at Boston Center, 1st we were never involved in any exercise that day. 2nd when they SIM an exercise at NEADS, it is tied off from thier "Real World" job they use different scopes. Just as we do in the FAA, thier is no way in the FAA that you can SIM a target onto our Real World Scopes, ever.
It can't be done. 3rd exercises normally have a "RED Force the bad guys", and a "Blue Force, the good guys". Exercises are planned for the Red Forces, "Trusted Agents" know wht they are pretty much are going to do. Your theory is based on that these 3 or 5 people knew what the Blue Forces were going to do, standard SOP, that is the farthest from the truth. Planners have an idea what they might do, but any exercie planner will tell you they "Never Go As Planned" That is why they exercise. In addition to that Large Scale Exercises take on a life of thier own they evolve, there is no way the 3 or 5 evil people could base the reactions of what would happen in the exercise, becasue no one ever really knows how it will work out in the end.

I can't wait to get into your no planers theory, but I'm tired and I got to go to bed.

The unremarkable rank of Major, your killing me Jamms

[bio]

Congratulations, you've just discoverd two more people to add to the 8 127 persons responsible for this mass conspiracy.

Either that or you don't understand military terminology.

I'm going with the latter.

What are you talking about?

The exercise-inputs could have been the so called "hijacked planes" ... no only "injects" in the radar-screen, "real" staff.

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/...pes-transcript

[excaza]

Why has nobody yet pointed out that they don't actually hijack an airplane during exercises?

[Sabrina]

Why has nobody yet pointed out that they don't actually hijack an airplane during exercises?

Probably because we figured that was self-evident to anyone with a brain and the capacity for rational thought who might be reading this. Which would include the vast majority of sane individuals... ;)

[ProBonoShill]

What are you talking about?

The exercise-inputs could have been the so called "hijacked planes" ... no only "injects" in the radar-screen, "real" staff.

09:04:50
”Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?
"Yes.
”Jesus
”And there’s a possible second hijack also”a United Airlines
”Two planes?
”Get the **** out
”I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/...pes-transcript

*sigh

Bio, you're quoting an offhand remark made by an unidentified soldier who wasn't involved in command and was making a comment due to his disbelief at what was happening.

I'm bored at work, so I'll explain this to you in hopes you'll drop this nonsense.

Let's say I'm a Sergeant at a police station, I get a frantic call from someone claiming there's four guys with Uzi's who have shot at least 80 people at a local high school. An officer at another desk overhears the conversation and says "Probably just a bunch of students rehearsing for a school play."

Is that evidence that nobody was shot or killed? No murders took place?

"Inputs" do not crash on purpose, nor do they fly into buildings. Especially when exercises for these "inputs" have not begun yet and were not related to 9/11 in any way.

There is lots of evidence in this thread alone that proves this, why do you continue to ignore it?

[bio]

*sigh

Bio, you're quoting an offhand remark made by an unidentified soldier who wasn't involved in command and was making a comment due to his disbelief at what was happening.

I'm bored at work, so I'll explain this to you in hopes you'll drop this nonsense.

Let's say I'm a Sergeant at a police station, I get a frantic call from someone claiming there's four guys with Uzi's who have shot at least 80 people at a local high school. An officer at another desk overhears the conversation and says "Probably just a bunch of students rehearsing for a school play."

Is that evidence that nobody was shot or killed? No murders took place?

"Inputs" do not crash on purpose, nor do they fly into buildings. Especially when exercises for these "inputs" have not begun yet and were not related to 9/11 in any way.

There is lots of evidence in this thread alone that proves this, why do you continue to ignore it?

of course it could be a coincidence, that both used by chance the same words "inputs"...

I was asking after the meaning of "exercise-inputs", which to according to Norad-Center in Cheyenne should be ended at 10:07. Just a coincidence, that the attacks ended really then? Also just a coincidence, that one NEADS-soldier at 09:03 called the hijacked planes "inputs"?

it could be a coincidence, you are right.

[beachnut]

of course it could be a coincidence, that both used by chance the same words "inputs"...

I was asking after the meaning of "exercise-inputs", which to according to Norad-Center in Cheyenne should be ended at 10:07. Just a coincidence, that the attacks ended really then? Also just a coincidence, that one NEADS-soldier at 09:03 called the hijacked planes "inputs"?

it could be a coincidence, you are right.
Who knew Flight 93 had crashed at 10:07? Oops, it crashed before 10:07. You don't have any logical reason to be messing up this information. You continue to diverge from what happen on 911 into insane ideas and dirt dumb ideas on 911. You know nothing about exercise and have failed to realize an exercise would give the military more personnel to hand real world events. By discussing exercises you expose your ignorance and fail.

You would never schedule an exercise if you were doing bad stuff, you would get caught! Your lack of knowledge leads to delusional ideas.

[Senenmut]

Do you think after I had a conversation with MAJOR Deskins and told her it was "Real World", not an exercise that she figured it out sometime that day. You act like thier statement about "two seconds" of thier lives was what they beleived all day long on 9-11.
did you know about the exercises? if so what did they consist of?

Your remarks about exercises and how this all played into the evil 3 or 5 people in the government that pulled this off is a joke. I work one end of the exercises at Boston Center, 1st we were never involved in any exercise that day.
never involved???? but did you know the exercises were happening? im confused about your statement "i work one end of the exercises at boston center" and then stating that you were never involved in any exercise???
2nd when they SIM an exercise at NEADS, it is tied off from thier "Real World" job they use different scopes. Just as we do in the FAA, thier is no way in the FAA that you can SIM a target onto our Real World Scopes, ever.
so the faa does have "exercises" but just on different scopes?
can you tell us which computers at the faa were outfitted with PTECH software?

3rd exercises normally have a "RED Force the bad guys", and a "Blue Force, the good guys". Exercises are planned for the Red Forces, "Trusted Agents" know wht they are pretty much are going to do.
you said "normally". what about the "not normal" exercises? can one differenciate between "real world" and "exercise".

Planners have an idea what they might do, but any exercie planner will tell you they "Never Go As Planned" That is why they exercise. In addition to that Large Scale Exercises take on a life of thier own they evolve, there is no way the 3 or 5 evil people could base the reactions of what would happen in the exercise, becasue no one ever really knows how it will work out in the end.
are you speaking of the "simulation team". could you explain what happened here during this exchange and maybe even who was on the other side of the extension 6180?:

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?

if the exercise inputs were red and blue as you state, why the hell would they have to call and get these input terminated?

[Sabrina]

are you speaking of the "simulation team". could you explain what happened here during this exchange and maybe even who was on the other side of the extension 6180?:

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?

if the exercise inputs were red and blue as you state, why the hell would they have to call and get these input terminated?

Most likely because the inputs were preprogrammed and a call would have to be made to halt their inputs so they could switch over to real-world scopes.

Exercises that require radar inputs are generally preprogrammed into the system and allow for the disconnect of the important buttons (i.e. the "fire" button) from the actions of the people undergoing the exercise. Could you imagine if they were not and someone had to press the button to fire off a missile or launch a group of fighters and it WASN'T disconnected? You'd be squandering millions of dollars, potentially, without any reasonable excuse to do so.

Secondly, it's entirely likely that the exercise inputs were controlled from a separate location, so they would have to call to have them terminated.

[Cheap Shot]

did you know about the exercises? if so what did they consist of?

No I didn't know anything about exercises that morning until I called NEADS and they asked me if it was "Rea; World" or "Exercise"

[Cheap Shot]

never involved???? but did you know the exercises were happening? im confused about your statement "i work one end of the exercises at boston center" and then stating that you were never involved in any exercise???

We were not involved in that exercise, if there is an exercise in Boston Center's Airspace I would know about it, i'm the guy they coordinate with. So when I say i work one end of the exercise, I work Boston Center's end of any military exercise that involves Boston Center.

[Cheap Shot]

so the faa does have "exercises" but just on different scopes?
can you tell us which computers at the faa were outfitted with PTECH software?

FAA conducts training on another set of scopes in another room and they are run form another computer. You canget a live feed from the operational floor in the that room which is called the Dysim Lab, but when you wnat to run a problem there the system is tied off form the floor, and then you would run your sim tapes. The FAA deos not have there own military exercises, that is how the military trains, we train on regular ATC problems, occasionally we will add military flights maybe an air refueling breakup or a fighter breakup after exiting Special Use Airspace.

Don't know anything about PTECH software you would have to explain that to me.

[Cheap Shot]

you said "normally". what about the "not normal" exercises? can one differenciate between "real world" and "exercise".


When I say normally that is on our end. When ever we have an exericse with the military there is always a Red Force and Blue Force, on there end I have no idea, maybe they have other players, so from my standpoint Red & Blue Forces would be normal, anything other than that would be abnormal for me, or for ATC.

[Cheap Shot]

are you speaking of the "simulation team". could you explain what happened here during this exchange and maybe even who was on the other side of the extension 6180?:

male speaker 10: What we need you to do right now is to terminate all exerrcise inputs coming into cheyenne mountain.

male speaker 1: Yes. can you call 6180 extension for that, please?

if the exercise inputs were red and blue as you state, why the hell would they have to call and get these input terminated?

Don't know exactly what you are saying about a simulation team, there are so many players in a large sacle exercise. Maybe Cheyenne Mountain wasn't supposed get on the phone until 10:00 AM Local, that could have been thier first inject or input. Inputs could be a SIM input, it could have been a voice input to that extension number.

Not everyone knew that planes had been hijacked, or had been crashed into the WTC. Though I didn't know anything about UAL175 until after it hit the WTC, a controller or two in Area E did know about it. I don't know if they had told thier supervisor or not I don't believe so. Controllers at Indy Center had come back from thier break in the cafeteria back to the control room, had seen the aircraft hit the towers and a controller in thier area was looking for AAL77 thinking that it had crashed, and never even thought it had been hijacked. Everyone found out at different times. Controllers didn't have CNN up at thier control sectors, while everything was happening in front of your eyes live on CNN we were getting bits and pieces of information minutes after you saw it live.

So again I cannot speak for NORAD or NEADS about thier equipment or how thier side runs exercises, just the FAA side of the house.

[Senenmut]

FAA conducts training on another set of scopes in another room and they are run form another computer. You canget a live feed from the operational floor in the that room which is called the Dysim Lab, but when you wnat to run a problem there the system is tied off form the floor, and then you would run your sim tapes. The FAA deos not have there own military exercises, that is how the military trains, we train on regular ATC problems, occasionally we will add military flights maybe an air refueling breakup or a fighter breakup after exiting Special Use Airspace.

Don't know anything about PTECH software you would have to explain that to me.

thanks for all your info. do you recall any computer "upgrades" shortly before 911?

ptech is a very interesting topic. here is a clip of a "whistleblower" speaking about what she discovered about ptech.

from the vid, Indira Singh states:
"Who, who’s really behind PTECH is the questions. I asked that of many intelligence people who came to my aid as I was being blacklisted and I was told, “Indira, it is a CIA clandestine op on the level of Iran-Contra.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8228336760154277932#

[Senenmut]

Don't know exactly what you are saying about a simulation team, there are so many players in a large sacle exercise. Maybe Cheyenne Mountain wasn't supposed get on the phone until 10:00 AM Local, that could have been thier first inject or input. Inputs could be a SIM input, it could have been a voice input to that extension number.

Not everyone knew that planes had been hijacked, or had been crashed into the WTC. Though I didn't know anything about UAL175 until after it hit the WTC, a controller or two in Area E did know about it. I don't know if they had told thier supervisor or not I don't believe so. Controllers at Indy Center had come back from thier break in the cafeteria back to the control room, had seen the aircraft hit the towers and a controller in thier area was looking for AAL77 thinking that it had crashed, and never even thought it had been hijacked. Everyone found out at different times. Controllers didn't have CNN up at thier control sectors, while everything was happening in front of your eyes live on CNN we were getting bits and pieces of information minutes after you saw it live.

So again I cannot speak for NORAD or NEADS about thier equipment or how thier side runs exercises, just the FAA side of the house.

i got "simulation team" from that vanity fair article:


Powell's question—"Is this real-world or exercise?"—is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from the simulations team on hand to send "inputs"—simulated scenarios—into play for the day's training exercise.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true

[Cheap Shot]

thanks for all your info. do you recall any computer "upgrades" shortly before 911?


We have upgrades every 56 days associated with the regular 56 day chart cycle (Aviation Products). Sometimes will have an interim date at 28 day cycles, and of course we have updates two four times during the 56 day cycle. So yes we would have upgrades prior to 9-11, but we do all the time. I don't know anything about PTech, can't say whether we have it or not, I wouldn't know, not my job. If it would have been a large upgrade I would tend to know about those, but any spyware stuff would probably be a small upgrade, we have spyware, but the one's I am familiar with are to keep track of thier employees, where you go when you are on the internet, how much banwidth do you use, but this is on our regular lan systems which could be updated anytime. As far as the ATC HOST system, I could see something monitoring it, but actually interacting with it, that would be tough. It is 1979 techonolgy or loder and is written in some Jovial C Format, that only some old timers can still write in it. It is a system that has thousands of patches in it, and any changes to it require months and years of testing at Atlantic City.
I am sure thier are smart peopl out there that can do pretty much anything, but other than monitoring it I couln't see a system interacting with the HOST.

[Cheap Shot]

i got "simulation team" from that vanity fair article:


Powell's question—"Is this real-world or exercise?"—is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from the simulations team on hand to send "inputs"—simulated scenarios—into play for the day's training exercise.I would imagine they are simular to what we use in our ATC training, we have what we call are SIM Pilots, they put in the inputs, controllers can act as sim pilots, but lately the training contractor hires people exactly for this purpose.

When they run an exersise at EADS, I know the two controllers sit right next to each other (Blue vs Red) they know they are involved in an exersise, and they have a SIM station it is somehow tied off from the live floor, when they are exercising they still have real world functions that need to be handled. I don't know at EADS or not whether they can SIM targets to Real World Scopes, you would have to ask someone like Gumboot, he has a lot more knowledge on EADS than I do.

[beachnut]

i got "simulation team" from that vanity fair article:


Powell's question—"Is this real-world or exercise?"—is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from the simulations team on hand to send "inputs"—simulated scenarios—into play for the day's training exercise.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true
You post an article that exposes your conspiracy theories as moronic delusions. Good job you debunked the TM! Again. You guys always debunk yourself when you present reference to the real world. 8 years of failure; now what do you do?