Are supermarkets killing the high street?

[commandlinegamer]

The points in this article aren't necessarily anything new; I've heard and read similar stories often in the last few years:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10197763.stm

I own a small business, concentrating mainly now on repairs as the retail side has somewhat lessened over the last 4-5 years. I know my own limitations: I'm perhaps not aggressive enough to be terribly successful in business, but I manage to pay my bills.

But I, like many others, have found it harder and harder to make money with the inexorable rise of supermarkets. Only a few minutes from where I work we have two large outlets, open 24 hours, selling thousands of lines including food, clothing, electrical goods, stationery, etc.

Thirty-odd years ago we had much more variety in the types of shops around here, including supermarkets where food make up at my guess 90% of their sales. As they have over recent years expanded their range, these days I'd say it's more like 60% food/40% non-food. Numerous small shops here closed (high-street names as well as small local businesses), long before the recession hit.

What has made it worse was that the supermarkets which at one point were tightly integrated into the centre of the town have moved just far enough away to make it much less of an incentive for people to visit other shops.

Am I justified in complaining about the massive power of the supermarkets? Surely in a free market the laws of survival of the fittest apply and I just need to suck it up and celebrate their success.

[Dymanic]

As for the OP, I don't see much room to question whether superstores kill small businesses. That's a no-brainer.

What has made it worse was that the supermarkets which at one point were tightly integrated into the centre of the town have moved just far enough away to make it much less of an incentive for people to visit other shops.Partly because it's harder to aquire plots of land big enough to accommodate superstores and the enormous parking areas they require, and partly because their locations are chosen to draw from an area which may encompass a number of small communities. And here we come to the key insight: it's all designed around the automobile.

The romance and charm of a community where a kid grows up "knowing every shopkeeper in town" is undeniable, but the implications go beyond mere aesthetics or even "social connectivity". For that to be possible, those shops have to be easily accessible to a person who is travelling on foot. Double the cost of automobile fuel a couple of times and the convenience of that one-stop shopping loses some of its appeal, and the superstore's massive buying power may not be enough to provide the price competitiveness it would need to compensate for the added expense the customer incurs in getting there -- but reverting to the old system won't happen easily or quickly, because most of the small storefronts will have fallen into disrepair or taken over by tattoo artists, psychics, and porn dealers.

[MRC_Hans]

I think the question is wrongly phrased. Supermarkets are not killing the high street. However, the whole retail structure is moving from a diversity of small shops to a combination of larger units (read supermarkets) and highly specialized shops.

The high street will not die in the process, but it will change its character profoundly. Instead if a diversity of shops you use daily, there will be special shops, restaurants, cafes. etc.

A century or two ago, somebody might have asked "Are fixed shops killing the town marketplace?"

Hans

[Dymanic]

The high street will not die in the process, but it will change its character profoundly. Instead if a diversity of shops you use daily, there will be special shops, restaurants, cafes. etc.
Businesses geared more toward tourists than locals, in other words. The most successful of these communities are those which re-create some bygone time, often complete with historic reenactments performed three times a day by costumed actors. Even if we assume an energy economy in which frequent recreational travel is a viable option, it may be worth considering why it is that tourists would want to visit such a place. Could it be because most of them live in places where local charm and character were long ago replaced with the sterility and gaudy uniformity of big boxes and strip malls? That they have some vague awareness of what was lost in that transition, and derive some comfort from being able to revisit it, if only for a day, even though the whole thing is nine-tenths pretend?

[drkitten]

Businesses geared more toward tourists than locals, in other words.

Not at all.

But certainly businesses that are operating in a niche too small for the supermarkets to feel it worth competing in (or too inconvenient to compete in).

Restaurants are a good example because they're very labor intensive. That actually turns your thesis on its head; it's the chain restaurants that survive based on tourism, as the locals generally know better places to eat. Chain restaurants survive because they can get convenient locations near the shopping meccas, because they offer familiar food to the tourists, and precisely because they can reduce labor costs substantially.

But no one's going to make a special trip into downtown to eat at a T.G.I. Friday's or an Applebee's.

On the other hand, people will make a special trip out to the suburbs to shop for clothes at a Wal*Mart, especially if they can also pick up a garden hose and toiletries at the same time. It ends up saving them both time and money, especially since one pack of tighty-whiteys is pretty much the same as any other, so quality isn't that much of an issue. And Wal*Mart can typically offer goods at a retail prices that beats what boutique markets have to pay at wholesale price.

So if you want to "compete" with Wal*Mart, you need to find something that a lot of people want that they can't afford to offer. Something that people care about badly enough that they're willing to make a special trip for (since they can't just grab it when they do their usual grocery shopping). Which really means you have to find a way to avoid competing with Wal*Mart, because you will lose any actual competition.....

[MRC_Hans]

Businesses geared more toward tourists than locals, in other words. The most successful of these communities are those which re-create some bygone time, often complete with historic reenactments performed three times a day by costumed actors. Even if we assume an energy economy in which frequent recreational travel is a viable option, it may be worth considering why it is that tourists would want to visit such a place. Could it be because most of them live in places where local charm and character were long ago replaced with the sterility and gaudy uniformity of big boxes and strip malls? That they have some vague awareness of what was lost in that transition, and derive some comfort from being able to revisit it, if only for a day, even though the whole thing is nine-tenths pretend?I disagree (like drkitten). Restaurants and cafes are very much for the locals, just think of the British pub-culture. Specialty shops offering knowledge about what they are selling also appeal to locals, albeit from a larger area. What such businesses need to offer is something you can't grab in the superstore and can't order via the internet. Such as:

Food specialities.
Clothes that you won't meet someone else in.
Hobby articles, coming with professional advice on what to get and how to use.
Art and artisan articles.
Stuff like that.

Also, as the throw-away culture is slowly fading, second-hand goods of all kinds, and repair services. We have a lot of second-hand shops in Denmark, by now mostly run by charity orgainsations, with volunteer staff, but they run a burgeoning business and sooner or later, for profit entrepreneurs are going to move in (some already have, especially in women's clothing).

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

*snip* Which really means you have to find a way to avoid competing with Wal*Mart, because you will lose any actual competition.....

Or .... Reminds me of as story:

There was this small grocer, and a supermarket. The supermarket wanted to attract customers, so they put a bargain offer on coffee, selling it with zero profit.

To his dismay, the supermarket owner soon discovered that the grocer had started selling coffee 50c cheaper. So they lowered the price still more.

But no matter what they did, the grocer always sold his coffee 50c cheaper. After several weeks, they gave up, and put the price back at normal. The grocer followed to 50c below.

So at the Xmas bazaar, the supermarket owner invited the grocer for a pint and told him: "You really got me there, with the coffee! I don't wanna know how much money I lost on that venture, heheh, I was up to loosing 3 bucks per kilo. But it must have cost you a bundle, too, underselling me like that?"

"Nah," the grocer answered "only ever 50c per kilo. I bought it all in your shop."

Hans

[Dymanic]

But certainly businesses that are operating in a niche too small for the supermarkets to feel it worth competing in (or too inconvenient to compete in).I've lived in a number of small communities that have gradually evolved into cutsey tourist havens where many (if not most) of the purchases are on items that arguably could be obtained cheaper somewhere else. The whole system is based on the psychology of tourist buying -- as a general rule, they aren't looking for bargains; they're looking to cement an experience: "Oh look what we got in this cute little town we passed through on our vacation last summer".

If the place is high didge, they may even be looking for prestige value: "Oh look what we got in Sedona; cost us a fortune, but isn't it simply mahvelous how it accents the room dahling". If you're looking for prestige value, you aren't going to find it at WalMart; the more money you pay, the more bragging rights you get. And if you're selling prestige value, you aren't going to be relying on local traffic for the bulk of your sales (except perhaps in some very exclusive communities where all the good spots are aleady taken and where competition from a new WalMart nearby isn't likely to be much of an issue anyway).

As for restaurants, I suppose things might vary a lot from one place to another, but if we're talking about a "profound change in the character of a community" by replacement of a whole bunch of small hardware stores and whatnot with a whole bunch of restaurants, one question that quickly comes to mind has to do with just how many restaurants the locals can support -- no matter how good the food is.

[Dymanic]

I disagree (like drkitten).
Excellent. I don't think I've ever learned a thing from someone with whom I started out in complete agreement.
Specialty shops offering knowledge about what they are selling also appeal to locals, albeit from a larger area.I guess everybody is a local somewhere, but we might need to nail down just what is meant by the phrase: "Locals albeit from a larger area".

Also, as the throw-away culture is slowly fading, second-hand goods of all kinds, and repair services.Yeah, second-hand stores, tattoo parlours, palm readers... I've got a real clear picture of the kind of transformation we're talking about here. I'm glad to hear that someone somewhere is seeing a fading of the throw-away culture. I'm sure not.

[drkitten]

I've lived in a number of small communities that have gradually evolved into cutsey tourist havens where many (if not most) of the purchases are on items that arguably could be obtained cheaper somewhere else. The whole system is based on the psychology of tourist buying -- as a general rule, they aren't looking for bargains; they're looking to cement an experience: "Oh look what we got in this cute little town we passed through on our vacation last summer".

Which might mean that you're looking at it from the wrong end.

The problem isn't with supermarkets, it's with an unhealthy local economy not being able to support businesses other than tourism.

You often see almost exactly the opposite in college towns, because college towns usually have a pretty good local economy providing goods and services to the locals.

[drkitten]

I guess everybody is a local somewhere, but we might need to nail down just what is meant by the phrase: "Locals albeit from a larger area".

Well, everyone needs groceries, which is why there used to be a grocer on every corner. But that's exactly what's being killed by Wal*Mart.

Not everyone needs high-end audio equipment. Wal*Mart hasn't moved into that space yet (they're doing really well with the low-end commodity equipment, but the high end stuff is still the realm of small boutique stores). But you won't see such a boutique on every corner. Your competition there is not Wal*Mart but the other boutique audio shop across town. Sedona AZ has enough audiophiles to support one of these stores, but probably not two. (And a quick check on-line confirms it. There are no big-box audio retailers in Sedona (the nearest Best Buy seems to be Flagstaff) but "Artistic Systems" is right off the main highway.

[AnnieJ]

*

It ends up saving them both time and money

*


I think this says it all for the average consumer. We have little time on our hands because of the life-styles we choose to live. No longer do we have time to drive all over town (nor can we afford the gas) picking up what we need when we can do that "one-stop shopping".

As much as I despise Wal-Mart, I have to admit that most things can be purchased there for less. With money as tight as it is one has to shop where they can get the biggest bang for their money.

We might save on time and money but we have sacrificed on service. If we have a question about a product don't bother trying to ask at these big discount stores. The store workers are clueless.

What I have seen happen though is that customers are helping customers. Anytime that I have seen someone that needed help with something that I know about I stop and offer my help. I have had the same done for me by other customers.

Maybe something good will come out of all of this.

[AnnieJ]

Well, everyone needs groceries, which is why there used to be a grocer on every corner. But that's exactly what's being killed by Wal*Mart.

Not everyone needs high-end audio equipment. Wal*Mart hasn't moved into that space yet (they're doing really well with the low-end commodity equipment, but the high end stuff is still the realm of small boutique stores). But you won't see such a boutique on every corner. Your competition there is not Wal*Mart but the other boutique audio shop across town. Sedona AZ has enough audiophiles to support one of these stores, but probably not two. (And a quick check on-line confirms it. There are no big-box audio retailers in Sedona (the nearest Best Buy seems to be Flagstaff) but "Artistic Systems" is right off the main highway.

Another nail in the coffin for the small boutiques is the high operating costs. Strip mall owners would rather see their building sit empty than to lower the rent enough for a small business to be able to survive. Add insurance and utilities on and small shop can not make it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

We might save on time and money but we have sacrificed on service. If we have a question about a product don't bother trying to ask at these big discount stores. The store workers are clueless.

This is a trade off we*** as a society have decided to make.


***Before some idiot comes in and posts "I didn't decide to make that trade off", yes, I understand that "we" doesn't include everyone. It doesn't even include me. But if it didn't include most people, Wal-Mart and Best Buy wouldn't be in business.

[Darat]

I disagree (like drkitten). Restaurants and cafes are very much for the locals, just think of the British pub-culture. ...snip...

Yes just think about it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8161793.stm ;)

[AnnieJ]

This is a trade off we*** as a society have decided to make.


***Before some idiot comes in and posts "I didn't decide to make that trade off", yes, I understand that "we" doesn't include everyone. It doesn't even include me. But if it didn't include most people, Wal-Mart and Best Buy wouldn't be in business.

I am in agreement with you Scrut. I held off as long as possible until it just didn't make sense not to go where I could purchase at a considerable discount. I do however still support our local hardware store as much as possible.

I am a do-it yourselfer and I appreciate the knowledge that the people have working there. They have taught me much and it is worth the higher prices to me. Plus they are just down the street so it saves me time. It is nice when I go in...I know them and they know me.

[drkitten]

Another nail in the coffin for the small boutiques is the high operating costs. Strip mall owners would rather see their building sit empty than to lower the rent enough for a small business to be able to survive. Add insurance and utilities on and small shop can not make it.

Well, to be fair, this isn't the strip mall owners' fault. The chain stores can make it, where the boutiques can't. Rent is actually one of the fairer ways that small stores are treated -- boutiques typically pay exactly the same rent for exactly the same space and the strip mall owners are usually quite scrupulously even-handed about that. What really kills them are all of the various ways in which the operating costs are actually higher for the small stores. Health insurance for your employees? Twice as much for the boutique. Wholesale price for goods? The chains usually buy in bulk and save 20% or more. Marketing? You can amortize a national commercial across thousands of stores.... Another way of saying that is that the chain stores are simply more profitable, which is to say, that the small shops can't compete.

If my business model demands that I provide the same thing at a higher price than my competitor in order to stay in business, it's just not going to work. I have to either provide a better thing at a higher price, or the same thing at the same price.

[Modified]

Fruit and vegetables at the local Amish market here are about half the price of Wal-Mart, and much better quality. I wonder why with better quality and a similar location they can't compete with supermarkets at a similar price.

[drkitten]

Fruit and vegetables at the local Amish market here are about half the price of Wal-Mart, and much better quality. I wonder why with better quality and a similar location they can't compete with supermarkets at a similar price.

Because they don't have the broader selection.

Let me give you an example. I decide that I want to make a dish calling for

* stewing beef
* mushrooms
* onions
* sour cream
* red Burgundy
* salt and pepper

to be served with

* French bread

I can get all that at the Giant or the Sainsbury's, or I can go to the butcher, the greengrocer, the dairy, the vinter, the dry goods store, and the baker.

Which is easier and more convenient?

It gets better. I also need to pick up some shoes, a new pair of trousers, some stamps, a newspaper, a trashy mystery novel, and a corkscrew. Which I can still get at a large supermarket on the same trip, or I can add the cobbler, the tailor, the post office, the newsagent, the bookseller, and the ironmonger/hardware store to the list.

Hell, most large supermarkets in the States have banks in them, now.

[Dymanic]

Which might mean that you're looking at it from the wrong end.I'd prefer to think I might simply be looking at it from the other end (though I do dimly recall one or two occasions on which I actually was just flat wrong).

The problem isn't with supermarkets, it's with an unhealthy local economy not being able to support businesses other than tourism.But in many communities, the local economy was healthy enough to support those businesses before the big box came along -- or is it that they weren't healthy but just functioned as if they were until the big box came along and revealed all that underlying unhealthiness?

You often see almost exactly the opposite in college towns, because college towns usually have a pretty good local economy providing goods and services to the locals.The definition of "locals" continues to be key here. Hard to decide whether the college students themselves should be considered short-term locals, or long-term tourists, or a special case.

Well, everyone needs groceries, which is why there used to be a grocer on every corner. But that's exactly what's being killed by Wal*Mart.Right. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing might be somewhat subjective, as it is partly aesthetic. In addition to the aesthetic objections I have, I also get a sense that it might be prudent for all of us to give some thought to how our lives would change in the face of a serious energy shortfall and/or a sharp spike in fuel prices. I don't want to derail the thread with all of that, but another tradeoff for a heavily centralized distribution system is that communities become less resiliant in crises -- or so I would think.

[Tatyana]

I like my little high street which still has two green grocers, a fish mongers and a butchers.

There is also a Tesco Metro and a Co-operative, but they are not always the best value for money.

I also specifically often shop in the local Halal shop as it is so much cheaper than the big supermarkets.

I think I also need to note that I don't have a car, and with rare exceptions, I really don't need one.

If more people had to walk, take the train, bus or taxi, it really would change the dynamics of shopping.

[quadraginta]

<snip>

The definition of "locals" continues to be key here. Hard to decide whether the college students themselves should be considered short-term locals, or long-term tourists, or a special case.

<snip>.


I'm not sure if that really matters. As long as there is a relatively stable quantity of them in any given time period they function as locals. It doesn't make much difference if the individuals get changed out on a regular basis, as a group their buying habits are still a constant.

Campuses are dependable population attractors, including both the staff who are paid to work there and the students who pay for the privilege. If one goes belly up in a community, unlike a factory it's like losing the jobs and the customers all at once.

[drkitten]

But in many communities, the local economy was healthy enough to support those businesses before the big box came along -- or is it that they weren't healthy but just functioned as if they were until the big box came along and revealed all that underlying unhealthiness?

Any time a new competitor enters the market, the local economy changes. Big box stores typically harm the local economy (make it less healthy) because they act as (local) money sinks and take wealth out of the local economy (and deliver it, of course, to corporate HQ). Every time someone spends a dollar at a Wal*Mart, a few pennies of that dollar leave Springfield, Whereverthehell and head to Bentonville instead.

And so the community scrambles to find a response. "Getting poorer" is one response, but most people don't like that one. Most people prefer to find a way to bring more money into the community from outside, and hence the focus on tourists (who are by definition outsiders).

The problem is that tourism is generally not a very good business to be in; it's fiercely, fiercely competitive (why go to Sedona instead of Flagstaff or Winslow), tends not to be well-paying, and doesn't generate community investment the way a factory or a school might.


The definition of "locals" continues to be key here. Hard to decide whether the college students themselves should be considered short-term locals, or long-term tourists, or a special case.

The students are only one part, and arguably a minor part, of the economic benefits of a college town. One of the things that college towns also do is generate local wealth. For example, a local professor might found a biotech company. This benefits the local economy in a lot of ways. It brings in revenue from the product sales and it also creates relatively good jobs. The college also tends to make the town "better" which makes it easier to recruit and retain long-term residents who will invest in the community.

That's also why so many college graduates end up living near where they went to college. It's a nice place to be, they're comfortable with it,.... and so many of the people who come as short-term end up being long-term visitors. Boulder, Colorado, has a great story of "Niwot's Curse," where Chief Niwot supposedly cursed the valley by suggesting that everyone who came there would never want to leave. But that's part of what makes Boulder a thriving community instead of one of the ghost towns up in the mountains that are scratching to make a living from tourist casinos. People end up staying and starting companies like Ball Aerospace, Wild Oats Market, or Celestial Seasonings.....

[Mashuna]

I like my little high street which still has two green grocers, a fish mongers and a butchers.

There is also a Tesco Metro and a Co-operative, but they are not always the best value for money.

I also specifically often shop in the local Halal shop as it is so much cheaper than the big supermarkets.

I think I also need to note that I don't have a car, and with rare exceptions, I really don't need one.

If more people had to walk, take the train, bus or taxi, it really would change the dynamics of shopping.

It's also interesting to note the shops that survive. We had a Tesco open a couple of years ago, and the greengrocer (that wasn't especially good) soon closed. The two butchers shops have been going fine, and I still buy all my meat from them. It probably helps that they're owned by local farming families, so the lamb and beef are all raised within about 5 miles of the shop.

[Modified]

I can get all that at the Giant or the Sainsbury's, or I can go to the butcher, the greengrocer, the dairy, the vinter, the dry goods store, and the baker.

Which is easier and more convenient?

But for meat, dairy, wine, and bread, Wal-Mart is cheaper or similar in price. Not so for fruit and vegetables.

Even if I could stand the mushy, tasteless vegetables and sour fruit that supermarkets sell, I would still look at it in terms of how much my time is worth. The savings for shopping at the fruit market, minus fuel, probably works out to $50 per hour or more, tax free, for my time.

[AnnieJ]

*

It gets better. I also need to pick up some shoes, a new pair of trousers, some stamps, a newspaper, a trashy mystery novel, and a corkscrew. Which I can still get at a large supermarket on the same trip, or I can add the cobbler, the tailor, the post office, the newsagent, the bookseller, and the ironmonger/hardware store to the list.

Hell, most large supermarkets in the States have banks in them, now.

Don't forget...at Wal-Mart you can get your eyes check, hair done, take out a loan for a house, oil changed and put on new tires...one stop shopping!

[Dymanic]

Because they don't have the broader selection.

Let me give you an example. I decide that I want to make a dish calling for

* stewing beef
* mushrooms
* onions
* sour cream
* red Burgundy
* salt and pepper

to be served with

* French bread

I can get all that at the Giant or the Sainsbury's, or I can go to the butcher, the greengrocer, the dairy, the vinter, the dry goods store, and the baker.

Which is easier and more convenient?

It gets better. I also need to pick up some shoes, a new pair of trousers, some stamps, a newspaper, a trashy mystery novel, and a corkscrew. Which I can still get at a large supermarket on the same trip, or I can add the cobbler, the tailor, the post office, the newsagent, the bookseller, and the ironmonger/hardware store to the list.
By the time a person gets from one end of a SuperStore to the other and back, and then back across the parking lot to the car, I wonder how much walking all this one-stop-shopping actually saves compared to what it would take to gather the same items by walking up and down Main street in Mayberry RFD, popping in and out of a bunch of little shops along the way. Fewer transactions, granted. Time savings: five to fifteen minutes (okay, plus maybe an hour not spent chatting with friends and acquaintances you run into along the way or covering the front for one of the shopkeepers while she runs across the street for a sandwich -- this actually happens to me about every third visit I make to a local music store).

I think it is price more than anything. Offer a sweet enough deal and you'll have them queueing up outside for hours before the place even opens; how convenient is that? Perhaps one way of looking at it is that those big outfits represent the collective interests, and hence the price-negotiating power, of a large number of people. I don't know about on the other side of the pond, but as for the interests of people here in the US, a Willy 'n Ethel cartoon I saw some years ago really nailed it: "We'd rather have a whole lot of cheap junk than a few nice things."

[Roboramma]

I think it is price more than anything.

I think it's also the knowledge that they will have whatever it is that you're looking for. If I need to pick up an umbrella I might think, "Okay... where can I buy an umbrella?", and not be able to come up with what sort of shop I should go to. But I know the big super stores will have them.

[BobTheDonkey]

I think it's also the knowledge that they will have whatever it is that you're looking for. If I need to pick up an umbrella I might think, "Okay... where can I buy an umbrella?", and not be able to come up with what sort of shop I should go to. But I know the big super stores will have them.

This leads, rather directly, into a "Chicken or the Egg" type discussion. Do you not know where to buy an umbrella because you've only ever bought one at a big-box store?


I can tell you, I know if you live in NYC, there's no shortage of umbrellas (whether the weather is good or bad)... But, then again, there are very few big-box stores in NYC precisely due to the cost of large plots of land they require - as well as the walking/mass-transport nature of the City and it's Boroughs.

My GF was born in Queens, until she moved in with me an hour or so north of the city, she'd never even been into a Wal*Mart.

Of course, we rarely ever shop at Wal*Mart anymore. We have found that we both appreciate the service of local shops/grocers/hardware stores and are willing to pay a bit more for the service and product quality the "boutiques" offer.

[commandlinegamer]

Cities seem to be one place where big massive supermarkets don't have an edge because of the traffic/parking issues. But they've got round that to a certain degree by having smaller establishments aimed at workers looking for primarily for lunch or for smaller items they can buy and take home from the office later on, as opposed to a full weekly shop.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Hard to argue that supermarkets and the internet haven't affected the High St but sometimes I feel that the High St is killing the High St. Too often they seem to have replicated a lot of the worst elements of the supermarket (in terms of choice, product quality, service etc) with none of the positive aspects to counter it.

It would be lovely if the streets were filled with artisanal bakers, cheesemakers, chocolatiers etc but they aren't generally.

I personally have more or less given up on high street shopping I buy from supermarkets and the internet. I don't feel like I am missing out on anything particularly.

[fagin]

Will Ebay and online shopping effect the supermarkets?

Big wheel keeps on turning....

[MRC_Hans]

I've lived in a number of small communities that have gradually evolved into cutsey tourist havens where many (if not most) of the purchases are on items that arguably could be obtained cheaper somewhere else. The whole system is based on the psychology of tourist buying -- as a general rule, they aren't looking for bargains; they're looking to cement an experience: "Oh look what we got in this cute little town we passed through on our vacation last summer".


To be sure. However, no tourists are attrected by shops (with some special exceptions, like Carnaby Street in London). Tourists come to visit places, and there the shops will cater for them.

As for restaurants, I suppose things might vary a lot from one place to another, but if we're talking about a "profound change in the character of a community" by replacement of a whole bunch of small hardware stores and whatnot with a whole bunch of restaurants, one question that quickly comes to mind has to do with just how many restaurants the locals can support -- no matter how good the food is.

Very much depending on culture and place, yes. In my country eating out is expensive, and an area can only support a few restaurants. In other places, eating out is only slightly more expensive than eating home, and some streets crawl with small restaurants (e.g. Taipei, Hong Kong).

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

I guess everybody is a local somewhere, but we might need to nail down just what is meant by the phrase: "Locals albeit from a larger area".

In this case: Within walking distance, and within short driving distance, respectively.

Yeah, second-hand stores, tattoo parlours, palm readers... I've got a real clear picture of the kind of transformation we're talking about here.

Oh, I have seen town main streets too, that were transformed to .... emptiness. I certianly don't expect all shops to survive, even transformed.

I'm glad to hear that someone somewhere is seeing a fading of the throw-away culture. I'm sure not.

Well, I am at least hopeful. The second-hand culture is certainly booming.

Hans ;)

[MRC_Hans]

I think it's also the knowledge that they will have whatever it is that you're looking for. If I need to pick up an umbrella I might think, "Okay... where can I buy an umbrella?", and not be able to come up with what sort of shop I should go to. But I know the big super stores will have them.Yeah, but will you be able to find it? :p
- And will the shower be over before you have parked, browsed 4 miles of aisles, and stood in line at express check-out?

Hans

[Dymanic]

Tourists come to visit places, and there the shops will cater for them.
I'm not sure things are always so neatly separable. There are some places which attract tourists (or, for that matter, locals) despite not having much going for them along the lines of historic or picturesque natural setting. What they do have going for them is that they reflect an understanding that people are more than just "shoppers"; that for a place to be worth spending time in, it must be visually pleasing; it must be pedestrian-friendly; there must be places where people can sit down and just relax for a while without feeling obligated to earn the privilege by buying something; where their eyes can rest on something not made of vinyl. To be a place worth caring about, it must at least try to look like it might have been designed and built by people who cared about it themselves.

Big box stores are designed and built by people who care only about grabbing eyeballs, and to accomplish that against an architectural background which represents the winners of previous rounds of the ongoing garishness competition. The building and the all-important parking lot are, essentially, part of the signage. Their message is this:

"In this HUGE store you WILL find what you want, and getting a parking space will NOT be a problem -- and there'll be plenty of bargains too, because, being strictly no-nonsense same as you, we haven't wasted a dime on trying to pretend to be something we're not by putting in any silly fountains or other extravagances like they do in those malls where everything is always so pricey."

What the big box encourages people to do is grab a double armload of cheap junk as quick as they can and then get the heck out. There are now second generation "shoppers" who have never known anything else.

[Toke]

Or .... Reminds me of as story:

There was this small grocer, and a supermarket. The supermarket wanted to attract customers, so they put a bargain offer on coffee, selling it with zero profit.

To his dismay, the supermarket owner soon discovered that the grocer had started selling coffee 50c cheaper. So they lowered the price still more.

But no matter what they did, the grocer always sold his coffee 50c cheaper. After several weeks, they gave up, and put the price back at normal. The grocer followed to 50c below.

So at the Xmas bazaar, the supermarket owner invited the grocer for a pint and told him: "You really got me there, with the coffee! I don't wanna know how much money I lost on that venture, heheh, I was up to loosing 3 bucks per kilo. But it must have cost you a bundle, too, underselling me like that?"

"Nah," the grocer answered "only ever 50c per kilo. I bought it all in your shop."

Hans

I recall there were a lawsuit on the "max 2 pr customer" on the supermarket bargains. It was because they were selling below the grocers purchase price, so he simply walked over and filled a cart with the bargain. :D

Where I live there are no free parking space, and I have 3-4 small supermarkets within walking distance. There are not the 3-5 butchers of 50 years ago, and I can see that many store fronts have been bricked up in my street.

I am pretty sure that there will always be all groceries within walking distance of my home, there are simply not enough parking space for anything else. :)

[JoeTheJuggler]

This reminds me of one of the most ironic TV ads I've seen in some time. It was a few months back, and it was an ad for one of the office supply/printing/shipping services chain stores.

In the ad, a small neighborhood barber's business was suddenly threatened when a big chain hairstyling shop opened across the street. "$8 Haircuts!" their sign read. The barber went to his handy [insert name of the office supply chain here] and had them print up some signs in their print shop. He put signs in his window saying, "We fix $8 haircuts", and in no time at all the chain hairstyling shop went out of business.

The tag line was the worst: it said something to the effect that nobody can beat their prices for printing signs.

[kittynh]

Downtown is what we call it here in the US. And it can be saved. I live near Keene NH which was a target town when the state of NH decided to try to save downtown areas. Keene now has a Target, a Wal Mart, 3 big supermarkets, a Home Depot...

And the thriving downtown.

But it took planning and work. First off the state came in and studied, what stores would work and how to get funding to people that wanted to open stores? There is a terrific state office that didn't just let people that opened stores fail. Experts in marketing, design, business budgeting....

I know all this as my friend opened a store down town. After 3 years she is making a very good living from her store. Her store sells only products made in New Hampshire. People shop there a lot for gifts. You want to send something really unique for Christmas presents...you go there. The state helped my friend set up shipping from her store. People enjoy the one stop shopping and shipping. Her business went up 20% when she offered shipping.

THere is a new designer that has a shop in town, and a shop with fresh flowers and garden gear. A wonderful kitchen gear shop, a really lovely redone old movie theatre that shows indie and foreign movies. There are also live shows that come, and that fills the fun restaurants (including a great pizza place and Thai food ....inexpensive but fun places to eat). A thriving farmers market twice a week during 3 seasons, because people like to eat local fresh food, and ample cheap parking (which the city worked very hard on providing, if you cant' get a parking space, you won't come).

I mean, it's FUN to go downtown. There are cool shops and cheap eats and entertainment.

THe state didnt spend a lot on this. The people that offer the advice are retired business people.

[dudalb]

Actually "Main Street" is the US Equivilent for "High Street".
Also knows as "The Main Drag",etc.

[quixotecoyote]

Actually "Main Street" is the US Equivilent for "High Street".
Also knows as "The Main Drag",etc.

Or possibly "the square" or "downtown" for those of us used to the smaller Midwest towns?

[BobTheDonkey]

Or possibly "the square" or "downtown" for those of us used to the smaller Midwest towns?

As a (former) midwesterner, I always thought that was just "town"...

As in: "I'm going into town, need anything?" (albeit with much less enunciation :D)