Dragons and Angels

[Bikewer]

Couldn't think of anywhere better to put this...

Both of these mythic creatures are frequently depicted in art, film, and so forth. The standard model, however, is of a six-limbed creature. IE- two hindlegs, two forelegs, and the wings, of course.
This seems unlikely, as we know that both reptilian and mammalian creatures are invariably four-limbed. Those creatures which are capable of flight (excepting insects) modify the forelimbs into wings. Thus the bat, and the bird. Both of these types have considerable modification to allow flight, in terms of greatly extended forelimb bones, enormous pectoral muscles, hollow bones, and an abreviated hind limb in most cases adapted only to support standing/hanging.
In order to allow both forelimbs and wings, a wildly modified shoulder structure and musculature would be necessary. We would also note that in the typical examples presented, the rear limbs of both angels and dragons are far too heavy, and would result in very poor flight characteristics, with little in the way of directional control.
There are very few depictions of properly-designed dragons and angels. The films Dragonslayer and Reign of Fire both depict batlike dragons, with the apparent use of the long tail with a rudderlike attachment on the end to provide some directional control.
In regards to angels, I am aware of only one depiction of a proper flying creature. This was in an illustrated copy of John Varley's "Gaia" trilogy. ( a fine read, BTW)
Not exactly proper supernatural angels; these angels were created by the world-that-is-a-god based on intercepted ideas from Earth, so that Gaia could experience war. (The Angels were to fight the Centaurs, which she also created.)
Varley correctly describes the Gaian Angels as being quite birdlike, with the forelimbs modified into wings, the rear limbs attenuated, and the skeleton lightened.
Now, those who quibble about such things might note that both dragons and angels are supernatural beings, and presumably not subject to the same laws of physics as are we.
Piffle.
When these creatures interact with humans on the same plane of existance, one might expect that the same physics would apply.

Next week: Fairies.

[Hexxenhammer]

I think its fairly recentlly that dragons have been depicted with six limbs. Those old medieval woodcuts and tapestries seem to mostly have dragons with bat-like wings in the place of forelimbs. And the persian dragons (name on the tip of my tongue damn it!) had 4 legs and no wings.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
I think its fairly recentlly that dragons have been depicted with six limbs. Those old medieval woodcuts and tapestries seem to mostly have dragons with bat-like wings in the place of forelimbs. And the persian dragons (name on the tip of my tongue damn it!) had 4 legs and no wings.

I don't know about that. Here are three from the 16th century that have the "Four legs and two wings" configuration (though admittedly two are by the same painter)

Tintoretto (http://mexplaza.udg.mx/wm/paint/auth/tintoretto/st-george-dragon.jpg)

Raphael1 (http://www.tigtail.org/TVM/M_View/X1/b.High%20Italian/raphael/M/raphael_st_george_fighting_the_dragon_louvre.jpg)

Raphael2 (http://www.tigtail.org/TVM/M_View/X1/b.High%20Italian/raphael/M/raphael_st_george_fighting_the_dragon_dc.r.jpg)

Though I did find one like you described, from the 15th century, about midway down this page (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/u/uccello/6various/). I can't link directly to the picture itself because of the odd way that they have it set up.

Just doing a bit of preliminary googling, the break point seems to be the 16th century. Nearly everything I saw from the 16th century onward had the four legs and two wings, before that you see a lot more variance, four legs and no wings, completely snakelike, two legs and two wings etc. Of course this is only based on spending half an hour googling for old pictures of dragons so I could be way off.

[Bikewer]

Seems the species was somewhat smaller in Mideaval times!

I seem to recall a couple of prints of good ol' St. George slaying a rather anemic little guy, about Komodo dragon size.

Maybe it's all our information on dinosaurs that's responsible for the contemporary T-Rex sized critters.....

[Chaos]

Chinese dragons, on the other hand, usually had no wings, but were "swimming" through the air instead of flying. Now, that´s strange...

I have a book called "Das Drachenbuch", ("the dragon book") about dragons in myths and literature. It includes several paintings of dragons.

Both Paolo Ucello and Raphael picture St. George´s dragon as horse-sized and pony-sized, respectively.

The earliest example of a huge dragon that I, personally, know, is Smaug of "The Hobbit". That´s probably where the "modern" dragons come from.

[LW]

Originally posted by Bikewer
The standard model, however, is of a six-limbed creature.

But if you go back to the Old Testament, you'll notice that angels there were not exactly six-limbed:

Ezekiel 10:
9 I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite.
10 As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel.
11 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went.
12 Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.
13 I heard the wheels being called the whirling wheels.
14 Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
15 Then the cherubim rose upwards. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.
16 When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side.
17 When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.
18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.
19 While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the LORD's house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.
20 These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realised that they were cherubim.
21 Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like the hands of a man.

and

Esaiah 6:
2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

[Bikewer]

Hehe- I was gonna post that! I remembered that the OT descriptions of some of the angels were pretty frightening critters.

As I recall from my art studies, we didn't get the contemporary view of angels as human-beings-with-wings until the middle ages, or thereabouts. I seem to recall (though I might be on shaky ground here) that the whole "war in heaven" buisness, with Lucifer rising up and being cast down to rule in Hell, was an invention sometime in this period.

I wrote a short story on the buisness, with Micheal pondering over his decision to throw in with God.....

[Skeptic]

Hehe- I was gonna post that! I remembered that the OT descriptions of some of the angels were pretty frightening critters.

As they should. An angel--"Mal'ach"--means "messanger (of God)", and as such is usually a powerful, no-nonsense sonofabitch whose very appearance caused "shock and awe". After all, consider his boss, the OT Jehovah...

Furthermore, the message carried by this messanger from God to the mortals was very often rather shocking in itself, warning of coming catastrophes, wars, death, etc. Worse, these guys often not only gave the message, but carried on the mission: it was angels who were sent to smite armies, destroy cities, cause plagues, etc. Generally speaking, if you saw an angel, it means you were screwed.

The very idea of a benevolent angel, or one concerned with protecting humans (let alone a specific human), would seem absurd to the writers of the OT.

P.S.

I'm afraid Milton beat you to it with writing a story on that war of the angels. I always consider Satan the real hero of Milton's "paradise lost". If nothing else, Satan's got more balls than all the good angels put together.

[Jas]

I think when they have no limbs, they aren't considered dragons, but wyrms. I think wyverns are the ones with no forelimbs.

[LW]

Originally posted by Jas
I think when they have no limbs, they aren't considered dragons, but wyrms. I think wyverns are the ones with no forelimbs.

That's only a modern role-playing game classification. The ancients didn't bother with such exact classifications.

A quick trip to OED shows that wyverns were originally a special kind of chimeraic creature having a dragon's body, eagle's legs, and poisonous tail. OED also includes a 1682 quote from Gibbon stating: "This Dragon hath but two Legs, and so is the same with our Wiverne."

Also, Old English "wyrm" or "worm" didn't necessarily imply a complete lack of legs, since, for example, a lizard was "slow-worm". Also, there's a c.1400 quote from translation of Aesop's fables where frog and mouse are called "wormes".

[Chaos]

Originally posted by LW


That's only a modern role-playing game classification. The ancients didn't bother with such exact classifications.

A quick trip to OED shows that wyverns were originally a special kind of chimeraic creature having a dragon's body, eagle's legs, and poisonous tail. OED also includes a 1682 quote from Gibbon stating: "This Dragon hath but two Legs, and so is the same with our Wiverne."

Also, Old English "wyrm" or "worm" didn't necessarily imply a complete lack of legs, since, for example, a lizard was "slow-worm". Also, there's a c.1400 quote from translation of Aesop's fables where frog and mouse are called "wormes".

The modern role-playing games clasification says that dragon have four legs and two wings (VERY rarely no wings, like the cathay dragon in Earthdawn), while wyverns look much like dragons, but are smaller, a little dumber, and can´t breathe fire (or anything else - some dragons breathe different stuff); instead their tails have a very dangerous poisonous sting.

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
And the persian dragons (name on the tip of my tongue damn it!) had 4 legs and no wings. The sirrush! I remembered. There're cool carving of these guys on babylonian ruins. I've seen fundies use them as proof of dinosaurs and humans living together.

[Nyarlathotep]

Then there is the dreaded A$$ dragon, which can often be seen in places of employment.

Many times, at many place I have heard bosses ask "Why are you walking around with your A$$ Dragon?".

[Cecil]

Strange. I hadn't read this topic until just now, and I was thinking about this last night while staring at a poster I just got. It's about 5' x 3'. :D http://www.gbposters.co.uk/images/b2bproducts/SM0046-240px.jpg

Maybe I have the ability to know what's in threads without reading them... ooh, scary!

[Deadbeat]

Maybe I have the ability to know what's in threads without reading them... ooh, scary!

And worth a million bucks, too... ;)

[Abdul Alhazred]

Dunno about dragons, but angels fly like Superman, including in outer space.

The wings are just for pretty, like the tail of a peacock.

Female angels don't have them. They stay at home in Heaven, and don't appear in visions.

Angels are allegedly sexless in Christian mythology, but look at the 'gender presentation' of adult angels in renaissance painting. Invariably male. :p

[Bikewer]

I get a copy of Spectrum every year, that the year's best Sci-fi and fantasy art.

A few seasons back, during the height of the "angel" craze, a number of artists did very clever takes on the tradition, including one of a couple of rather slutty looking angels smoking and chewing bubble gum.

[aries]

Hello !

As i see angels do not have wings...

It is their fluffy clothes that make them appear to have wings...

As for Dragons i always come to think of the comodo dragon...

(called varan in danish)

Their bite stings like fire...and can hurt pretty badly... and maybe even sometime is their bite deadly...

And sailors who in older times othen due to storms flew out off their set course went home and told these stories about these strange animals...

and as they did not know what they had seen... they interpreted it in ways they could understand

hence the dragons or demons...

aries

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by aries
Hello !

As i see angels do not have wings...

It is their fluffy clothes that make them appear to have wings...

As for Dragons i always come to think of the comodo dragon...

(called varan in danish)

Their bite stings like fire...and can hurt pretty badly... and maybe even sometime is their bite deadly...

And sailors who in older times othen due to storms flew out off their set course went home and told these stories about these strange animals...

and as they did not know what they had seen... they interpreted it in ways they could understand

hence the dragons or demons...

aries

Since I don't know if you are serious or joking about the angels so I won't comment on that.

But Dragons appear in European folklore appear loooooooooong before Europeans had any contact with the Komodo islands, so I seriously doubt that Komodo Dragons are the inspiration for Dragon legends.

[Johnny Pneumatic]

Now, those who quibble about such things might note that both dragons and angels are supernatural beings, and presumably not subject to the same laws of physics as are we.-Bikewer






As long as dragons lack magic powers why would they be supernatural?

[Bikewer]

One could use the notion that beings that manifest in our physical dimension must to some degree be subject to our physical laws. Hehe- it worked for Conan, as I recall.

Now, regarding fairies (remember, I promised...), I'm inclined to cut them a little slack. Most of the literature indicates that these creatures don't really exist in our reality, but in a reality that is just a bit seperate from ours. Thus, Rip Van Winkle can age considerable in what to him is just an overnight rest.

So, those little insectile wings may merely be decorative, and the fairies may fly through some sort of telekenisis.

[aries]

Hi :)

I see my english isn't quite well enough :D

But what i would have said about dragons was that sailors who blew off course (which actually happened from time to time)
and landed on a island (or somewhere else on the earth) and saw somethings they had never seen before --- they interpreted
what they had seen into their 'belief system' ---(or cognitive system if you would rather like that therm)

Hence, the (re)cognition of (new)animals as something they had seen in books; dragons, dolphins (and so on)...

I think this was the way i meant it...

as for the angels --- belive what you will...

aries

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by aries
Hi :)
I see my english isn't quite well enough :D
aries

Your English do be just fine. :D

Dragons and angels, they be flying like Superman.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by aries
Hi :)

I see my english isn't quite well enough :D

But what i would have said about dragons was that sailors who blew off course (which actually happened from time to time)
and landed on a island (or somewhere else on the earth) and saw somethings they had never seen before --- they interpreted
what they had seen into their 'belief system' ---(or cognitive system if you would rather like that therm)

Hence, the (re)cognition of (new)animals as something they had seen in books; dragons, dolphins (and so on)...

I think this was the way i meant it...

as for the angels --- belive what you will...

aries

Ah, so you are saying that Komodo Dragons are called dragons because the first people that saw them thought they resmebled dragons. I'll buy that. I don't know if it's true or not, but it seems logical and likely enough.