Chinese workers pay a price for no Labor Unions.

[DOC]

This is outrageous. 10 workers in 5 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283389/Apple-boss-Steve-Jobs-defends-China-Foxconn-factory-conditions-10-suicides.html

[carlitos]

At the risk of continuing an existing theme with your topics, will you be providing evidence that these workers committed suicide because they are not in a labor union?

[DOC]

At the risk of continuing an existing theme with your topics, will you be providing evidence that these workers committed suicide because they are not in a labor union?

So are you saying that working conditions were likely to have nothing to do with the deaths at the factory?

[Skeptical Greg]

Oh, yeah ! Labor unions have always been at the forefront of suicide prevention..

If you don't count the dissolution of a large work force like the air traffic controllers...

[DOC]

Of course there is always the possibility that some or all of the workers might have gone out the windows against their will, but I have no evidence of that -- but you have to wonder, 10 jumpers in 5 months.

[carlitos]

So are you saying that working conditions were likely to have nothing to do with the deaths at the factory?
No, I am not saying that. What I said is in the little box that says "carlitos" at the top. I know that it's your trademark, but are you going to start with logical fallacies right away?

You asserted that union membership would have prevented these suicides, correct? Could you please provide evidence for this?

[DOC]

At the risk of continuing an existing theme with your topics, will you be providing evidence that these workers committed suicide because they are not in a labor union?Since you used the word "risk" are you criticizing my other threads?

[carlitos]

I am criticizing your mis-use of logic and evidence in them, yes.

You titled the thread "Chinese workers pay a price for no Labor Unions." You posted a story about 10 workers committing suicide. Will you be providing evidence, such as suicide rates for union vs. non-union workers?

[AvalonXQ]

Will you be providing the evidence that's been asked for, or not?

[DOC]

You asserted that union membership would have prevented these suicides, correct? Could you please provide evidence for this?

Actually I didn't assert they would have prevented all of them, but it is just common sense that 10 alleged suicides (in 5 months) by jumping off a company building is outrageous. And it is also common sense that if the working conditions and pay were better at the factory this number of alleged suicides would be less or possibly none at all.

And who is more likely to have better pay and working conditions (especially in a Communist country), a union member or a nonunion member.

[carlitos]

Actually I didn't assert they would have prevented all of them, but it is just common sense that 10 alleged suicides (in 5 months) by jumping off a company building is outrageous. And it is also common sense that if the working conditions and pay were better at the factory this number of alleged suicides would be less or possibly none at all.Right. I never said, nor meant to hint, that "all" of these suicides would be prevented, nor do I think it's anything less than outrageous. But, since I have no idea why people are jumping off this particular building, whether this is some bizarre Chinese cultural phenomenon, or whether the cafeteria is spiking food with hallucinogens, I guess I'll just wait to see some more evidence and then decide.

And who is more likely to have better pay and working conditions (especially in a Communist country), a union member or a nonunion member.
I have no idea. Could you post some evidence, one way or the other?

[Aepervius]

1) there is in average in the population of china something like 99 death per 100000 (WHO stats) people per year.
2) There are 30000 employed in foxcon. So One would expect about 30 death this year per suicide among foxcon worker.

Conclusion the 10 is *NOT* surprising.

What is surprising is that the media took that up.

[carlitos]

What is surprising is that the media took that up.
Not really. "Apple Corporation Chinese sweatshop workers jumping to their deaths" is a pretty sexy headline.

[Aepervius]

Not really. "Apple Corporation Chinese sweatshop workers jumping to their deaths" is a pretty sexy headline.

Ok let me correct that. I ain't surprised that yellow-fox-like-sewer journalist took that over to sell more "prints". Neither I am surprised that some of the more "researching" traditional media degraded to the point that they too took that story over.

What surprise me is that nobody called them on it.

[blutoski]

This is outrageous. 10 workers in 5 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283389/Apple-boss-Steve-Jobs-defends-China-Foxconn-factory-conditions-10-suicides.html

This comes up from time to time. [Last year, it was France Telecom and Renault. (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-25/suicides-inside-france-telecom-prompting-sarkozy-stress-testing.html)]

It's not appropriate to compare suicide rate per 100,000 employees to the region's general population: the general population contains babies and older adults. These factories seem to have a disproportionate number of young adults and adolescents - a demographic with the highest suicide rate in most cultures.

We want to look at comparing the employees' suicide rate to a demographically identical non-employee baseline.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that this company is doing something horribly wrong that is resulting in suicides... but just that at this point, I don't see strong evidence of that yet.

[Malerin]

1) there is in average in the population of china something like 99 death per 100000 (WHO stats) people per year.
2) There are 30000 employed in foxcon. So One would expect about 30 death this year per suicide among foxcon worker.

Conclusion the 10 is *NOT* surprising.

What is surprising is that the media took that up.

Yes, but all of them jumping off the factory roof? That kind of sends a message, don't yout think? I wonder if they left notes behind though. If they were really pissed at the company, you would think they would. Of course, I doubt China would want those notes to be seen by anyone..

[DOC]

I wonder if this could ever happen in China like it did in the US.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9907E7DF113EEE3ABC4053DFB467838A 639EDE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

[Wolfman]

My thoughts on this:

The issue isn't so much one of work conditions; as Steve Jobs said, the factories are actually quite nice, with good facilities, etc. Nor is the work environment physically dangerous; safety measures are quite good.

The issue is the psychological pressure. Staff are pushed to work far longer hours than their contract stipulates (contract says 8 hours, they end up working 12 hours or longer). There's no 'official' policy that people have to do this; no bosses who tell them they have to stay; but everyone knows that employees who don't demonstrate their loyalty to the company will not get promoted. Overtime work generally is not paid, because the company doesn't officially 'require' it (the staff are considered to be voluntarily contributing their time to the company's efforts).

In addition to this, failure is punished severely. So there's the huge pressure that if you make even a small mistake, you could find yourself docked half a month's salary, or even fired.

Also, it should be noted that this is actually a Taiwanese-run factory. Taiwanese suicide rates (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2005/10/09/2003275139) are higher those of China...and there's a reason for that. They push their employees damn hard, the psychological pressures are enormous. They are bringing the same policies to their factories in China. And let me point out that Taiwan has labor unions...yet they engage in exactly the same practices that they do in the Chinese factory, and actually have higher suicide rates.

I'd also point out that Canada, the U.S., and Taiwan all have higher suicide rates among men* than China does. So having labor unions, and/or being a democratic nation, doesn't seem to have a correlating impact on decreased suicide rates.

So DOC's attempt to tie this the to absence of labor unions would seem to be rather lacking in actual evidence...at least, evidence that extends beyond his own personal opinion (sadly, in most cases, his own personal opinion tends to be the only 'evidence' that he requires to reach a conclusion).



*In regards to suicide, China has one rather unique -- if disturbing -- distinguishing factor; it is, so far as I'm aware, the only country in the world where suicide rates for women are higher than suicide rates for men.

[Wolfman]

Actually, if one wants to make sweeping generalizations based on poor evaluation of available evidence, we could take the higher suicide rates in countries like Canada and the U.S. as evidence that "North American workers pay a price for having labor unions". And it'd at least have more statistical support than DOC's claim does.

[BeAChooser]

According to this (WHO):

http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

the suicide rate in mainland China is less than in the US, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Japan, Denmark, and France … all countries with strong unions.

Draw your own conclusion. :D

[joobz]

OH CRAP! DOC and BAC in the same thread.
The key master has met the gate keeper!!
The return of Gozer The Gozerian is Neigh!

[Wolfman]

The return of Gozer The Gozerian is Neigh!
The return of Gozer the Gozerian is Neigh?!?

~~ A giant rift in the earth opens up; flames and lava pour out, the smell of brimstone and sulfur fill the air. A deep, guttural moan erupts from the depths, as if the earth itself is suffering labor pains. Then Gozer The Gozerian rises up on blood-red wings, his body covered with effluvium consisting of decaying blood and maggots. He ascends toward the sky, opens up his bestial mouth...and starts neighing like a horse ~~

And all of earths citizens, who were just moments before quaking in their boots, start laughing at him.



ETA: So that this isn't entirely off topic, a whole bunch of people commit suicide when Gozer the Gozerian first appears, but it has nothing to do with labor unions (who secretly worship Gozer, anyway).

[Tsukasa Buddha]

That is why Wolfman needs to stay on the forum.

Also, I heard the Chinese eat babies, is that true?

[carlitos]

They do eat kitties, does that count?

[Wolfman]

That is why Wolfman needs to stay on the forum.

Also, I heard the Chinese eat babies, is that true?I know (hope?) you're kidding...but to provide an authoritative answer to that question, let's turn to Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/fetus.asp).

They do eat kitties, does that count?Heck, I've eaten cat. And dog. And a whole bunch of other stuff.

(But no babies)

(Well, I've eaten baby animals...but no human babies)

[NewtonTrino]

Actually Foxconn has almost 500,000 employees.

[Wolfman]

I will say here that ten suicides at the same factory is something to be concerned over. I've been doing business in China for a long time, much of that consulting at companies that have equally large numbers of employees (or even higher). And none of them have this many employees jumping off their buildings in such a short period of time.

Motivations for suicide in China are often different than in the West. In the West, suicide is usually an act of desperation, coming from deep despair/depression. The person does it because they no longer want to live.

In China, while there are of course people who commit suicide for this reason, suicide also has very strong cultural/historic roots as a means of protest. The fact that these people are committing suicide at their place of work (instead of doing it at home) is a strong indicator that these suicides are intended as acts of protest, not acts of desperation.

This may not sound like an important difference, but it is. A person who commits suicide out of desperation/despair loses face, and brings bad fortune on their family. But a person who commits suicide as an act of protest can actually be seen as a hero.

This is one of the reasons why suicide rates for women are higher than for men in China (as I mentioned in a post above). There are many stories in Chinese history of women who's husbands were going to make bad decisions...so the wife committed suicide to protest, and force him to change his mind. These women are generally hailed as devoted, loving wives, who will sacrifice their own lives to prevent their husbands from doing something that they shouldn't.

In modern China, while this particular motivation wouldn't be a common one for suicide, a woman who's husband has been caught cheating on her may well commit suicide specifically to bring public attention to the man's acts, and to place him under a cloud of shame that he'll carry for the rest of his life.

The suicides at Foxconn are atypical, and should demand attention to determine the reason for them. But they shouldn't be viewed solely through a Western perspective, either.

[timhau]

*In regards to suicide, China has one rather unique -- if disturbing -- distinguishing factor; it is, so far as I'm aware, the only country in the world where suicide rates for women are higher than suicide rates for men.

Why is that disturbing? I've seen it called 'tragic' before, and I just don't get it. Is suicide more of a tragedy when a woman does it?

[Wolfman]

Why is that disturbing? I've seen it called 'tragic' before, and I just don't get it. Is suicide more of a tragedy when a woman does it?
I'd consider it "disturbing" or "tragic" when a particular country creates an environment that causes one particular segment of the population to be far more likely to commit suicide. It isn't 'because they're women'...it is because it is so completely different from the rest of the world (no other country has this trend, according to all statistics I've found), and I'd feel that such a difference was "disturbing" or "tragic" if it applied to any clearly identifiable group (ie. if one country had an abnormally high rate of suicide among teenagers, or the elderly).

Not only is China the only country in the world with higher suicide rates for women than for men, China also has the highest rate of female suicides of any country in the world (while there are many countries, including Canada and the U.S., whose male suicide rates are higher than China's).

You don't think that it is "disturbing" or "tragic" that one particular culture, for some reason, causes a far, far higher portion of a particular group to commit suicide, than in any other country in the world?

[timhau]

I'd consider it "disturbing" or "tragic" when a particular country creates an environment that causes one particular segment of the population to be far more likely to commit suicide.

In the rest of the world, that group is men, who in most countries commit the vast majority of suicides. I find it disturbing that this is apparently considered as some sort of an acceptable baseline.

[Wolfman]

In the rest of the world, that group is men, who in most countries commit the vast majority of suicides. I find it disturbing that this is apparently considered as some sort of an acceptable baseline.
When it is the norm in every country in the world except for one that more men than women commit suicide, then such suicides can't really be attributed to a particular cultural/political/social/environmental factor. I'm not arguing that male suicides are more acceptable; but it'd be very hard to make any kind of case that they can be blamed on anything other than general 'human nature'.

However, in the case of female suicides, only one country in the entire world has more women than men committing suicide. Therefore, there would appear to be definite, specific factors that are contributing to suicide, that do not exist in other countries.

Let's go back to the OP. Significantly more men are killing themselves in this particular factory, than in other factories of comparable size. That indicates that there are specific, unique factors contributing to those suicides. I therefore would consider those deaths to be "tragic" or "disturbing".

Moreover, it goes to issues of prevention. If suicide rates among a given population are pretty much the same as everywhere else, it indicates that there probably is not much that can be done to prevent it; it is 'normal'. Regardless of what we do, there will always be people who commit suicide.

But when suicide rates within a particular population deviate significantly from the norm, it indicates that those are, in fact, preventable. There is obviously some factor -- cultural, political, social, environmental -- that is specifically contributing to those deaths.

I think the fact that you don't consider it tragic or disturbing that women in China are driven to suicide at a rate far higher than in any other country in the world is, itself, disturbing. Not that people are killing themselves -- that happens all the time, and is sad, but is also a fact of life -- but that there are specific factors in China that are driving far more women to do this.

To put my argument another way -- there's nothing we ever do that will prevent all suicides, that will stop all people everywhere from taking their own lives. But when there is a particular population (men in a particular factory, women in a particular country, etc.) among whom suicide rates are much higher than anywhere else, that indicates that there is, in fact, action that can be taken, and changes that can be made, to prevent many of those suicides.

And knowing this -- that these significantly higher suicide rates are preventable -- makes those deaths "tragic" or "disturbing". Just as I consider it more tragic when someone dies in a car accident due to an entirely preventable/avoidable issue (a driver driving drunk, for example) than when someone dies in a car accident due to entirely random events (a blown tire that causes them to lose control).

[Kevin_Lowe]

When it is the norm in every country in the world except for one that more men than women commit suicide, then such suicides can't really be attributed to a particular cultural/political/social/environmental factor. I'm not arguing that male suicides are more acceptable; but it'd be very hard to make any kind of case that they can be blamed on anything other than general 'human nature'.

However, in the case of female suicides, only one country in the entire world has more women than men committing suicide. Therefore, there would appear to be definite, specific factors that are contributing to suicide, that do not exist in other countries.

Well, that or something makes Chinese men commit suicide less than men everywhere else, so that women take the lead by default. Or Chinese men commit suicide in some way that doesn't get recorded (I believe it's suspected that many single-vehicle car accidents are in fact suicides but it's hard to prove), or the women everywhere else commit suicide in ways that don't get recorded, or maybe something else entirely.

I'm not dismissing the possible problem, just saying that we need more information than the mere fact that the recorded suicide rate is higher for women.

[Wolfman]

Well, that or something makes Chinese men commit suicide less than men everywhere else, so that women take the lead by default. Or Chinese men commit suicide in some way that doesn't get recorded (I believe it's suspected that many single-vehicle car accidents are in fact suicides but it's hard to prove), or the women everywhere else commit suicide in ways that don't get recorded, or maybe something else entirely.

I'm not dismissing the possible problem, just saying that we need more information than the mere fact that the recorded suicide rate is higher for women.
The suicide rate for men is 'normal' in relation to other countries...nothing indicating it is particularly low. And the overall percentage of women who commit suicide in China -- regardless of how many men do it -- is the highest of any country in the world.

[soikins]

I will say here that ten suicides at the same factory is something to be concerned over. I've been doing business in China for a long time, much of that consulting at companies that have equally large numbers of employees (or even higher). And none of them have this many employees jumping off their buildings in such a short period of time.

I think psychologists call this phenomenon a "copycat suicide".
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide):
A copycat suicide is defined as an emulation of another suicide that the person attempting suicide knows about either from local knowledge or due to accounts or depictions of the original suicide on television and in other media.

The massive wave of emulation suicides after a widely publicized suicide is known as the Werther effect, following the Werther novel of Goethe.[1]

The well-known suicide serves as a model, in the absence of protective factors, for the next suicide. This is referred to as suicide contagion.[2]

There have been media guides developed on how to report on suicides as to minimize the risk of copycat suicides. I wonder if the media reporting on these Chinese suicides are aware of them.

[Foolmewunz]

I wonder if this could ever happen in China like it did in the US.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9907E7DF113EEE3ABC4053DFB467838A 639EDE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

Well, maybe you want to keep an eye on the news of the Honda strike in China. There's a concern amongst labour heavyweights in China and Hong Kong, that if the holdouts don't cave in, they could see force used. The business press reports that everyone's back at work; the blogs and alternative news report that there are still holdouts.


It's a different China than in the past. They still don't have actual unions, but workers are starting to organize, and old line commies are torn between their historical support of unions and labour and their own self-serving interests. By moving to free market in many areas, they've almost mandated that to maintain some sort of semblance of being a worker's state, they need to allow worker's to unionize (or, to be more accurate, allow them to form their own unions outside of the rump national organizations).

[Wolfman]

There have been media guides developed on how to report on suicides as to minimize the risk of copycat suicides. I wonder if the media reporting on these Chinese suicides are aware of them.
Considering the much more serious issue of the recent rash of school murders (people breaking into kindergartens or primary schools and attacking/killing as many people as they can) in China, and how its been plastered all over the press, undoubtedly contributing hugely to the many repetitions, I really doubt it.

[Puppycow]

After Spate of Suicides, Technology Firm in China Raises Workers’ Salaries (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/business/global/03foxconn.html?hpw)

SHANGHAI — Stung by labor shortages and a rash of suicides this year at its large factories in southern China, Foxconn Technology said Wednesday that it would immediately raise the salaries of many of its Chinese workers by 33 percent.

The pay increase is the latest indication that labor costs are rising in China’s coastal manufacturing centers and that workers are demanding higher pay to offset an increase in inflation and soaring food and property prices.

See? A spate of suicides is just as effective as a union.

[Wolfman]

It's a different China than in the past. They still don't have actual unions, but workers are starting to organize, and old line commies are torn between their historical support of unions and labour and their own self-serving interests. By moving to free market in many areas, they've almost mandated that to maintain some sort of semblance of being a worker's state, they need to allow worker's to unionize (or, to be more accurate, allow them to form their own unions outside of the rump national organizations).
And on that note...in the company I was working for previously, the president of the company (a Chinese man) actually instructed his employees to make a union. It is an unofficial union (it has no legal status), but gives the employees the opportunities to talk together, coordinate their efforts, and deal with the management collectively, rather than having to do it individually. He took a lot of flack from other senior managers when he did this...but productivity and profitability have both increased since then.

[soikins]

After Spate of Suicides, Technology Firm in China Raises Workers’ Salaries (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/business/global/03foxconn.html?hpw)

See? A spate of suicides is just as effective as a union.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy! :)

But seriously - I think it had more to do with bad press than with the suicides themselves. I don't think salaries would be raised without the press coverage. And, no, I don't have evidence for that ;)

[Wolfman]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy! :)

But seriously - I think it had more to do with bad press than with the suicides themselves. I don't think salaries would be raised without the press coverage. And, no, I don't have evidence for that ;)
My favorite response from their CEO was when he was visiting the factory, and when asked by Chinese media what he was doing to prevent this, he said that they were taking immediate action to put safety nets on the buildings, to catch jumpers.

Nothing like a pointless gesture that entirely fails to address the underlying problems.

[soikins]

My favorite response from their CEO was when he was visiting the factory, and when asked by Chinese media what he was doing to prevent this, he said that they were taking immediate action to put safety nets on the buildings, to catch jumpers.

Nothing like a pointless gesture that entirely fails to address the underlying problems.

That depends on what the underlying problems are. They do not seem clear to me. If these suicides (or at least the way they are executed) are due to copycat effect, then the CEO had a sensible idea of how to deal with them. On the other hand, if they where caused by the poor working conditions or even lack of Labour Unions :boxedin: then he was indeed trying to deal with the effects rather than causes.

[Wolfman]

If these suicides (or at least the way they are executed) are due to copycat effect, then the CEO had a sensible idea of how to deal with them. Ummm...the Chinese press was rather quick to point out that A) the jumpers could just go to other buildings, and B) they could avoid the nets by just jumping out further. Its not like someone who intends to commit suicide -- for whatever reason -- is gonna' jump into a net. I really don't see how this can be classified as a "sensible idea", except perhaps in terms of insurance and liability (he can try to claim that he took measures to prevent damage from jumping from his buildings).

[Aepervius]

Yes, but all of them jumping off the factory roof? That kind of sends a message, don't yout think? I wonder if they left notes behind though. If they were really pissed at the company, you would think they would. Of course, I doubt China would want those notes to be seen by anyone..

When you look around to see the reason using for suicide, it is normal that job (which take 8 hours of your day) come relatively high. As other pointed out such peak already happens in other firms or profession (see , remember the CT about 3 or 4 engineer suiciding at the same time near 9/11 ?).

Again there is nothing surprising or abnormal at first sight. I would like to see evidence that it is abnormal.

[soikins]

Ummm...the Chinese press was rather quick to point out that A) the jumpers could just go to other buildings, and B) they could avoid the nets by just jumping out further. Its not like someone who intends to commit suicide -- for whatever reason -- is gonna' jump into a net. I really don't see how this can be classified as a "sensible idea", except perhaps in terms of insurance and liability (he can try to claim that he took measures to prevent damage from jumping from his buildings).

A) They could also hang themselves and jump under a truck. Then they wouldn't be copycats, would they? In this case it seems that the place of death was important for the people who made the suicides.

B) Bigger nets, maybe?

[Foolmewunz]

I'm walking a thin line, here, so I will keep my posts to information that's available to the public,.... sort of. I know this company, know the factory and know their corporate offices.

(I'm anonymous on these forums because I am rather well known in my field and I'm particularly associated with some of the clients I handle, some for more than ten years. As long as I take my company's money, I will not say anything that would violate the terms of our various NDAs, but even if they're not in violation, various American/European big box importers would not take kindly to me posting some of my comments on China and Chinese logistics/labor, especially because I often use "unnamed large retailers" as an example. My name would be a giveaway to people in the industry as to which unnamed larger retailer I was referring.)

The provincial government announced this week that they intend to issue an adjustment to the minimum wage for factories. Upwards by 24%. Hon Hai announced last week a 20% increase. So their largesse at going to 30% doesn't represent that much - USD 17.10 per month.

This is greatly due to the negative pressure of the suicides. Their stock was taking a beating in the Taiwan shares markets, and HP and Dell and Apple launching investigations and sending teams over is HUGE loss of face.

Almost as important however, is the employment situation in the two most heavily industrialized provinces, Jiangsu and Guangdong. There are estimates that as many as 30% of the jobs are not being filled. Factories have traditionally just offered whatever the government told them they had to, and seemed to be sitting around scratching themselves, saying, "Gee, what could I do to get better/more applications. I've painted the fence, I've burned incense at the temple, I've given red pockets to my doorman. Surely I've covered everything?"

For the past two years, the net return of workers after the long Chinese New Year holiday has been very bad. Many just stayed home in their distant provinces. Working 12 and 15 hour shifts to barely make a net net of four or five hundred RMB per month was about what they could make fixing flat tires back home. And back home, they are with their families (never discount the importance of family to the Chinese).

By going above the provincial (proposed) minimum wage, Hon Hai buys itself face and buys its workers face (and gives face to the dead - which will go a long way with their coworkers). What they hope to do is to calm the situation, and additionally make a name for themselves as the flagship factory in the area where one would want to work.

There's also been a whole lot of Chinese noise in Taiwan over this. Taiwan is very sensitive to outside perceptions. They are the "good guys" to most westerners, and workers jumping off their roof was bringing embarassment to the island. There was a sympathy suicide at Hon Hai in Taiwan last week. I can think that the KMT called in the old man and had a little chat with him.

[Foolmewunz]

A) They could also hang themselves and jump under a truck. Then they wouldn't be copycats, would they? In this case it seems that the place of death was important for the people who made the suicides.

B) Bigger nets, maybe?

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The copycat aspect is not the jumping. It's the snuffing yourself on the company premises in somewhat a public fashion. Jumping was just the convenient way. (And it dates back more than six months. You can find reports of a jumper last summer at the same factory.)

[Lothian]

but you have to wonder, 10 jumpers in 5 months.Too right. That is a very slow work rate. Even knitting by hand I would expect a jumper every 3-4 days.

[Last of the Fraggles]

Yes, but all of them jumping off the factory roof? That kind of sends a message, don't yout think? I wonder if they left notes behind though. If they were really pissed at the company, you would think they would. Of course, I doubt China would want those notes to be seen by anyone..

If this place is anything like the big factory i visited in Guangzhou for a job interview a few years back (making trainers and other things) then it will be a fairly isolated site where the workers live, work, sleep, eat and everything else on the site. You basically have a town of however many tens of thousands of people. If they want to commit suicide by jumping off a building then the factory would probably seem the logical place.

I will say here that ten suicides at the same factory is something to be concerned over. I've been doing business in China for a long time, much of that consulting at companies that have equally large numbers of employees (or even higher). And none of them have this many employees jumping off their buildings in such a short period of time.

Motivations for suicide in China are often different than in the West. In the West, suicide is usually an act of desperation, coming from deep despair/depression. The person does it because they no longer want to live.

In China, while there are of course people who commit suicide for this reason, suicide also has very strong cultural/historic roots as a means of protest. The fact that these people are committing suicide at their place of work (instead of doing it at home) is a strong indicator that these suicides are intended as acts of protest, not acts of desperation.

This may not sound like an important difference, but it is. A person who commits suicide out of desperation/despair loses face, and brings bad fortune on their family. But a person who commits suicide as an act of protest can actually be seen as a hero.

This is one of the reasons why suicide rates for women are higher than for men in China (as I mentioned in a post above). There are many stories in Chinese history of women who's husbands were going to make bad decisions...so the wife committed suicide to protest, and force him to change his mind. These women are generally hailed as devoted, loving wives, who will sacrifice their own lives to prevent their husbands from doing something that they shouldn't.

In modern China, while this particular motivation wouldn't be a common one for suicide, a woman who's husband has been caught cheating on her may well commit suicide specifically to bring public attention to the man's acts, and to place him under a cloud of shame that he'll carry for the rest of his life.

The suicides at Foxconn are atypical, and should demand attention to determine the reason for them. But they shouldn't be viewed solely through a Western perspective, either.

The place I visited seemed very nice on the face of it. Probably very similar to this factory - it also had theatres etc. However, I couldn't help but think it would be a horribly depressing place to work. Most of the staff were fairly young women, no doubt living away from home for the first time, and they were literally placed in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the factory and associated facilites. I would imagine even if you were locked in a 5-star all inclusive resort for 365 days a year it would start to affect your mental condition.

I think psychologists call this phenomenon a "copycat suicide".
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide):


There have been media guides developed on how to report on suicides as to minimize the risk of copycat suicides. I wonder if the media reporting on these Chinese suicides are aware of them.

Copycat also occured to me. In a closed community like that its going to be likely to happen.

[Foolmewunz]

If this place is anything like the big factory i visited in Guangzhou for a job interview a few years back (making trainers and other things) then it will be a fairly isolated site where the workers live, work, sleep, eat and everything else on the site. You basically have a town of however many tens of thousands of people. If they want to commit suicide by jumping off a building then the factory would probably seem the logical place.

This one's not that isolated. It's a factory complex. Total population (of factory) approx. 380,000 persons. It's in Shenzhen, on public transportation lines, right next to residential and commercial zones. Population of Shenzhen 11,000,000. Even if you're limited to the factory area, you have 379,999 neighbors. Most of these people come from isolated communities around China, so that would be a lot.

While it's not isolated, it is a walled city within a city. Yet, the old days of workers having to stay in their enterprise zones (and needing passes to travel outside of said zone) are long since over. They have freedom of the city, essentially. Many workers who want to quit, just plain disappear.



The place I visited seemed very nice on the face of it. Probably very similar to this factory - it also had theatres etc. However, I couldn't help but think it would be a horribly depressing place to work. Most of the staff were fairly young women, no doubt living away from home for the first time, and they were literally placed in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the factory and associated facilites. I would imagine even if you were locked in a 5-star all inclusive resort for 365 days a year it would start to affect your mental condition.

Possibly, but when they first started moving across China to take these jobs, the facilities were ten times worse, the factories had "company store" economics going for them, and the workers were treated much much worse. Yet they put up with it because pro-rata, they saved up enough net earnings to send money home. Now the facilities are much better, as are the amenities, but the workers don't want to stay because they see no positive outcome. The bare pittance they can send home isn't enough to feed the wife or husband and/or kids and/or grandparents. Plus, there are smaller opportunities opening up in their home provinces.



Copycat also occured to me. In a closed community like that its going to be likely to happen.

Yes, already covered by several. But while we keep saying this, what are we all saying? Oh, these aren't real suicides? They were copycat suicides? Does that make the people less dead?

I mean, it's not like figure skating, where we're going to give extra points for sincerity based on an OQ (originality quotient). "Wow, Tom! Did you see that? Hong Lu just stuck his head into the vacuum sealer, encased himself in plastic, and asphxiated himself - turning blue and purple for our colour monitors. I'll give him 10 for originality, that's for sure!"

[Wolfman]

I mean, it's not like figure skating, where we're going to give extra points for sincerity based on an OQ (originality quotient). "Wow, Tom! Did you see that? Hong Lu just stuck his head into the vacuum sealer, encased himself in plastic, and asphxiated himself - turning blue and purple for our colour monitors. I'll give him 10 for originality, that's for sure!"Well, you could rate them on style for their dive, how much of a splat they make, etc....

...but on a more serious note, I think that those who are bringing up the copycat thing aren't doing so to downgrade the seriousness of suicide; but rather to question if the suicides are actually because of bad conditions, or if they're because people are just copying each other. ie. would each of the people who committed suicide have done so had there not been others who'd done it before them?

[Foolmewunz]

Well, you could rate them on style for their dive, how much of a splat they make, etc....

...but on a more serious note, I think that those who are bringing up the copycat thing aren't doing so to downgrade the seriousness of suicide; but rather to question if the suicides are actually because of bad conditions, or if they're because people are just copying each other. ie. would each of the people who committed suicide have done so had there not been others who'd done it before them?

I hope you're wrong.

Are we seriously saying that people would kill themselves to get in with the in crowd? I think copycat killers have issues already, copycat suicides very likely the same. I mean, walking into a school and slashing forty or fifty people with a chopper is some pretty heady stuff. Similarly, walking up to the roof and jumping off a building says, at minimum, that you've got something on your mind.

[Wolfman]

I hope you're wrong.

Are we seriously saying that people would kill themselves to get in with the in crowd? I think copycat killers have issues already, copycat suicides very likely the same. I mean, walking into a school and slashing forty or fifty people with a chopper is some pretty heady stuff. Similarly, walking up to the roof and jumping off a building says, at minimum, that you've got something on your mind.
I'm not saying I agree with such an argument...but think of it this way.

We have two people who are depressed/upset/angry/whatever with their job...they are identical to each other in every possible way (they will think/react the same way to any event). One of those people works in a factory where nobody has committed suicide, and where several people who were similarly depressed/upset/angry quit their jobs in a very public manner. The other one works in a company where several other people who felt similarly depressed/upset/angry committed suicide.

I think it is a reasonably arguable point that the second person would be more likely to commit suicide than the first one would...simply because that particular option is more at the forefront of their mind. Add to that the possible feeling of powerlessness, that nobody notices them or cares about them...and seeing how those who committed suicide, while unarguably dead, did get a lot of attention (and sympathy) after doing so...and I could see a decent argument being made that people in such an environment will be more likely to copy what others have done before, and kill themselves, when they would not have killed themselves if such an example had not already been set.

[soikins]

I hope you're wrong.

Are we seriously saying that people would kill themselves to get in with the in crowd? I think copycat killers have issues already, copycat suicides very likely the same. I mean, walking into a school and slashing forty or fifty people with a chopper is some pretty heady stuff. Similarly, walking up to the roof and jumping off a building says, at minimum, that you've got something on your mind.

A lot of people have suicidal tendencies, but not all of these people make suicides or even attempt to make them. There are many long-term factors involved. Nevertheless something has to trigger the suicide attempt. "Social proof" can be one of such triggers (see. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof)

I'm not sure what you're arguing. The copycat aspect is not the jumping. It's the snuffing yourself on the company premises in somewhat a public fashion. Jumping was just the convenient way. (And it dates back more than six months. You can find reports of a jumper last summer at the same factory.)

I am not arguing that, for example, placing the safety nets would stop these people from making the suicides in the long run (after other triggers and using other methods sometime in the future), but it would be a "quick and dirty" solution to the copycat suicides.

[Foolmewunz]

@Wolfman

Oh, I get the point. I just think that copycat makes it sound so trivial.

The fact that someone did it before so they're now of a mind to end it all still says that they've got major issues. It's not like the Swedes, who like kill themselves over anything. (Steve Landesberg, in bad Swedish accent: Hi hunne, what's for dinner? Asparagus? "Blam".)

If they feel the position they're in seems so untenable that the fact that someone else's suicide might just be a suggested out still says that there's something seriously wrong. Just like the guys on the slashing/killing sprees. I mean, I'm in Hong Kong, and had a rough day last Friday, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to get a bottle of hydrochloric acid and start flinging it on passersby. I don't have that many issues.

[timhau]

Sorry for the derail, but...

When it is the norm in every country in the world except for one that more men than women commit suicide, then such suicides can't really be attributed to a particular cultural/political/social/environmental factor. I'm not arguing that male suicides are more acceptable; but it'd be very hard to make any kind of case that they can be blamed on anything other than general 'human nature'.

OK. The problem is that you can make the exact same argument for men dominating the top positions in politics and business -- it is and has been the norm just about in every country in the world. However, it's generally not seen as 'human nature' but rather a problem that needs to be addressed. Maybe being male is a high stakes - high risk game, where the big winners win big and the more numerous big losers lose big; this is, arguably, the case in many if not all Western nations, where men dominate in not only corporate boardrooms but also homeless shelters. It just generally bothers me that 'the fight toward equality' is centered on bringing more women to the top while ignoring the men at the bottom.

[Taffer]

It's a very sad situation, but it's very easy to judge from over here in the west. For those of us who have worked in China, we know that the working conditions at this factory are absolutely not uncommon for factory workers there.

Remember that this spate of suicides started after the family of the first employee who committed suicide (for being demoted, not being fired) was payed a very large sum of money, several times more than the employee would have made. The sad truth is that, in China, often a factory worker is worth more to the family dead than alive.

[DOC]

Here is an article that goes into some detail about the situation at the complex.

From the article
iPad Factory On The Firing Line - Worker Suicides Have Electronics Maker Uneasy In China
2010-05-28 15:20:53 (6 days ago)
Posted By: Intellpuke from the Website Free Internet Press


"Ma Xiangqian, 18, was part of this peculiar Foxconn world, where everything is numbered: buildings, machines, component parts, finished products and, of course, people. For wages of up to 1,940 yuan per month (€230, or $285), the young man from Henan province spent his 12-hour shifts shoving plastic pieces into a machine that formed casings for Apple computers. Then he went home to sleep with nine colleagues in a room of one of the many dormitory blocks on the factory complex."

https://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=25887

It goes on to say that the family is suspicious of Ma's death. And that unusual marks were found on his upper body and what looks to be a drill hole in his head. The family wants to contest the official version in court. The article also says Ma was made to clean a toilet after getting into a beef with a supervisor.

It also says a video was released that allegedly shows Foxconn security guards in Bejiing hitting and kicking workers.

[Last of the Fraggles]

I hope you're wrong.

Are we seriously saying that people would kill themselves to get in with the in crowd? I think copycat killers have issues already, copycat suicides very likely the same. I mean, walking into a school and slashing forty or fifty people with a chopper is some pretty heady stuff. Similarly, walking up to the roof and jumping off a building says, at minimum, that you've got something on your mind.

Not saying that copycat is less valid or important but its a known phenomenon that suicide rates increase when there is publicity surrounding a suicide.

So in a very close community like this, when someone commits suicide then there is an increased likelihood someone else will. Each time it happens increases the likelihood it will happen again.

That doesn't make it OK, acceptable or right but it is a piece of information to be considered when assessing whether 10 suicides indicates a serious issue with the way Apple run their factory.

The scale of these factories essentially makes them small towns - would 10 suicides in a town of the same population indicate a serious problem? I think its hard for people in the West to get their heads around these figures. If 10 people commited suicide in my workplace that would be nearly 100% of the workforce.

Thinking back to my time in Korea its pretty clear that they had a cultural issue with suicide also - it seem to be almost a 'fashionable' thing to do (not the right word I know). I wasn't aware of it so much in China but would assume it might also be the case too.

[Lothian]

Doc,

You highlighted the wage. Obviously that wouldn't go far in America. Is it particularly low for China or would it offer a fair standard of living? On that wage can you only afford to live in one room of a house if you share it with 8 others?

[Last of the Fraggles]

Doc,

You highlighted the wage. Obviously that wouldn't go far in America. Is it particularly low for China or would it offer a fair standard of living? On that wage can you only afford to live in a house if you share with 8 others?

Would say 2000RMB isn't unusual for a young worker in a major city in China. I knew people in Shanghai who were living on less than that after graduating from university. Equally many people will be making more. Most people live with their parents so rent isn't an issue - only those who move to find work, which is where company provided accomodation comes in for factory workers and the like.

The sharing with 8 others is probably a bit of mischief making - I assume they stay in dormitories, wouldn't be unusual for that kind of factory situation. I'm also assuming the accomodation is provided by the factory in addition to the salary or that a small amount is deducted to cover rent and meals.

[NewtonTrino]

Typically the factories over there supply food and housing (dorm style).

Bunnie's blog make some interesting reading if you want to read about factory life.
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=7&paged=5

I picked page 5 but you can move back and forth and read all kinds of his experiences over there.

[carlitos]

Thanks to Foolmewunz for the insight. As someone who sources a lot of stuff in China, I had always wondered about whether things were getting better. Measuring worker return after the New Year is a very interesting way to look at it, both in terms of the industrial provinces, and the home provinces of the workers.

[Eddie Dane]

That is why Wolfman needs to stay on the forum.

Also, I heard the Chinese eat babies, is that true?

No.

That's Jews and Muslims.

[DOC]

Here is an article that goes into some detail about the situation at the complex.

From the article
iPad Factory On The Firing Line - Worker Suicides Have Electronics Maker Uneasy In China
2010-05-28 15:20:53 (6 days ago)
Posted By: Intellpuke from the Website Free Internet Press


"Ma Xiangqian, 18, was part of this peculiar Foxconn world, where everything is numbered: buildings, machines, component parts, finished products and, of course, people. For wages of up to 1,940 yuan per month (€230, or $285), the young man from Henan province spent his 12-hour shifts shoving plastic pieces into a machine that formed casings for Apple computers. Then he went home to sleep with nine colleagues in a room of one of the many dormitory blocks on the factory complex."

https://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=25887

It goes on to say that the family is suspicious of Ma's death. And that unusual marks were found on his upper body and what looks to be a drill hole in his head. The family wants to contest the official version in court. The article also says Ma was made to clean a toilet after getting into a beef with a supervisor.

It also says a video was released that allegedly shows Foxconn security guards in Bejiing hitting and kicking workers.

The article above also says this:

On Foxconn streets, workers are allowed to walk alongside each other only in pairs. If there are three of them, they must form a line...

...The men and women in white uniform coats and bonnets are forbidden from holding personal conversations. This rule is printed on the flip side of their corporate I.D.s. The only sound is a whistle and hiss from the machines where they push green circuit-boards for laptops or credit-card readers.

[Cleon]

That is why Wolfman needs to stay on the forum.

Also, I heard the Chinese eat babies, is that true?

Yeah, but the thing with eating Chinese babies is that 30 minutes later you're just hungry again.

[blutoski]

Ummm...the Chinese press was rather quick to point out that A) the jumpers could just go to other buildings, and B) they could avoid the nets by just jumping out further. Its not like someone who intends to commit suicide -- for whatever reason -- is gonna' jump into a net. I really don't see how this can be classified as a "sensible idea", except perhaps in terms of insurance and liability (he can try to claim that he took measures to prevent damage from jumping from his buildings).

It's becoming standard practice, though. The [Golden Gate Bridge may be similarly equpped (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/11/local/me-goldengate11)]. We're considering it in Vancouver for the Burrard and Granville and Lions Gate where the bridge decks are positioned above land.

My impression is that it's intended to demonstrate that they at least did *something*.

[carlitos]

Yeah, but the thing with eating Chinese babies is that 30 minutes later you're just hungry again.

That's why the Chinese eat Jewish and Muslim babies (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5995064#post5995064)? Makes sense. ;)

[KDLadage]

Well... there was that whole Great Leap Forward period (and other Mao movements) when cannibalism took place... but that is all over now.

<wipes mouth>

Anyone have some soy sauce?

[joobz]

The article above also says this:

Are you talking to yourself?

[six7s]

This is outrageous. 10 workers in 5 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283389/Apple-boss-Steve-Jobs-defends-China-Foxconn-factory-conditions-10-suicides.htmlThis is the price that Chinese workers pay no Labor Unions?

:confused:

Please do explain which module on that course in logic (y'know... the one where you got an A) equipped you with the skills to jump to such conclusions

[six7s]

At the risk of continuing an existing theme with your topics, will you be providing evidence that these workers committed suicide because they are not in a labor union?You're funny... in a ha-ha kinda way! I do like that :)

Srsly... going by his abysmal track-record, hell will freeze over before DOC provides evidence to support any of the nonsense he uses to litter his OPs (http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=501943)

[Wolfman]

The article above also says this:

On Foxconn streets, workers are allowed to walk alongside each other only in pairs. If there are three of them, they must form a line...

...The men and women in white uniform coats and bonnets are forbidden from holding personal conversations. This rule is printed on the flip side of their corporate I.D.s. The only sound is a whistle and hiss from the machines where they push green circuit-boards for laptops or credit-card readers.DOC,

Your whole problem here is that you draw wide conclusions from a single instance (a trend I see throughout a majority of your posts).

As I said before, this is a Taiwanese company. In Taiwan -- where they do have labor unions -- they have similar policies, and higher suicide rates.

So yes...there are problems at this plant, things that personally I'd like to see changed. But the claim that it is because of the lack of a labor union not only has no credible evidence to support it, but quite strong evidence to refute it.

[six7s]

1) there is in average in the population of china something like 99 death per 100000 (WHO stats) people per year.
2) There are 30000 employed in foxcon. So One would expect about 30 death this year per suicide among foxcon worker.

Conclusion the 10 is *NOT* surprising.

What is surprising is that the media took that up.Looking at the WHO site (http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/), I suspect you made a simple mistake in reading the stats...

99 is the year
Suicide Rates (per 100,000), by country, year, and gender.
Most recent year available. As of May 2003.

Country | Year | Males | Females | Average
NEW ZEALAND | 98 | 23.7 | 6.9 | 15.3
DENMARK | 98 | 20.9 | 8.1 | 14.5
CHINA (Selected rural & urban areas) | 99 | 13 | 14.8 | 13.9
SWEDEN | 99 | 19.7 | 8 | 13.85
GERMANY | 99 | 20.2 | 7.3 | 13.75
SLOVAKIA | 0 | 22.6 | 4.9 | 13.75
REPUBLIC OF KOREA | 0 | 18.8 | 8.3 | 13.55
CHINA (Hong Kong SAR) | 99 | 16.7 | 9.8 | 13.25
NORWAY | 99 | 19.5 | 6.8 | 13.15
AUSTRALIA | 99 | 21.2 | 5.1 | 13.15
ROMANIA | 1 | 20.8 | 3.9 | 12.35
CANADA | 98 | 19.5 | 5.1 | 12.3
ICELAND | 97 | 19.1 | 5.2 | 12.15
SURINAME | 92 | 16.6 | 7.2 | 11.9
BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA | 91 | 20.3 | 3.3 | 11.8
KYRGYZSTAN | 99 | 19.3 | 4 | 11.65
IRELAND | 99 | 18.4 | 4.3 | 11.35
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO | 94 | 17.4 | 5 | 11.2
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA | 99 | 17.6 | 4.1 | 10.85
INDIA | 98 | 12.2 | 9.1 | 10.65

Interpreting nation-by-nation stats is rarely, if ever, a simple task... even for the least contentious issues... and stats for suicides are notoriously error-prone - given that cultural and political attitudes to suicide vary so much... for some, the whole issue is taboo, so embarrassing they are willing to lie

For example:
cbsnews.com VA Hid Suicide Risk, Internal E-Mails Show
Follow-Up Reporting On Exclusive Investigation Reveals Officials Hid Numbers (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/cbsnews_investigates/main4032921.shtml)
April 21, 2008

In a recently filed lawsuit, the Department of Veterans Affairs is accused of deliberately misinforming the American public about the number of veterans committing suicide. <snip/>

The charges were backed by internal e-mails written by Dr. Ira Katz, the VA's head of Mental Health.

In the past, Katz has repeatedly insisted while the risk of suicide among veterans is serious, it's not outside the norm.

"There is no epidemic in suicide in VA," Katz told Keteyian in November.

But in this e-mail to his top media adviser, written two months ago, Katz appears to be saying something very different, stating: "Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among veterans we see in our medical facilities."

Katz's e-mail was written shortly after the VA provided CBS News data showing there were only 790 attempted suicides in all 2007 - a fraction of Katz's estimate.

<snip/>

And it appears that Katz went out of his way to conceal these numbers.

...CBS News showed the e-mail to Rep. Bob Filner, D-Calif., who chairs the House Committee on Veterans Affairs.

"This is disgraceful. This is a crime against our nation, our nation's veterans," Filner told CBS News. "They do not want to come to grips with the reality, with the truth."

<snip/>

Anyhoo... I am confident that you (along with all others who come here to think) recognise, this is merely one more in a long line of nonsense-based threads begun in a vain attempt to promote the delusions of the OP

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>

Anyhoo... I am confident that you (along with all others who come here to think) recognise, this is merely one more in a long line of nonsense-based threads begun in a vain attempt to promote the delusions of the OP

Oh, you're just saying that because you're siding with THE UNION REP AT THE FOXCONN/HON HAI FACTORY IN SHENZHEN.

Admittedly, it's essentially a state-run (or more accurately, CPC run), bogus union, but maybe DOC will reword that OP. "Chinese workers pay a price for enterprise capitalism being allowed in an autocratic and rigidly managed society and economy, even if they have a crappy union."

[six7s]

Oh, you're just saying that because you're siding with THE UNION REP AT THE FOXCONN/HON HAI FACTORY IN SHENZHEN.No

I'm saying that because - like all Chinese (even the christians) - I am a baby-munching, kryptonite peddling atheist intent on subverting teh truth, teh justice, and teh AmWay!

[kevinquinnyo]

Wolfman,

How would you rate cat and dog meat versus beef or chicken?

And which is better, cat or dog?

I'm not being flippant by the way, I'm really just curious.

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

How would you rate cat and dog meat versus beef or chicken?

And which is better, cat or dog?

I'm not being flippant by the way, I'm really just curious.lol

The times I've eaten cat or dog, it has been in very poor communities. Generally, it will be a situation where I've done something (or helped organize something) to help the local people. They want to show their gratitude, so they host a dinner for me. They know that "foreigners like meat", but don't have much money, so beef, pork, or other such meats actually can cost too much.

Instead, they'll provide dog, cat, snake, or other such local 'delicacies' that are available for free, or at very minimal cost.

While I'm not keen on eating dog or cat, to say no to them in such a situation would only be insulting..."You are primitive savages to eat such stuff, I'm a refined foreigner, I'd never eat something like that!"

So I eat it.

It doesn't happen often (I've had cat once, dog twice).

As to the taste...the dog I had was kinda' like stringy beef; the cat was more tender, but with a slightly sour taste. And I should stress that it wasn't presented to me as a whole animal...the meat was all cut up into small bite-sized pieces (as Chinese food usually is), so if you didn't already know what it was, you probably wouldn't be able to guess.

[PixyMisa]

1) there is in average in the population of china something like 99 death per 100000 (WHO stats) people per year.
Except that's the year, not the statistic. :o The reported statistic is 13.0

2) There are 30000 employed in foxcon. So One would expect about 30 death this year per suicide among foxcon worker.
Except that Foxconn employs something between 400,000 and 800,000 workers (!), depending on where I get the number from.

However, the two errors neatly cancel out, so that -

Conclusion the 10 is *NOT* surprising.
Is quite correct after all. In fact, you'd expect between 50 and 100 per year for that population, so 10 in 5 months is a little on the low side. (Ignoring all the confounding factors, such that this is only looking at people with jobs, and unemployment is a significant risk factor for suicide.)

All in all, the assertion in the OP is entirely unwarranted based on this data.

[Aepervius]

Except that's the year, not the statistic. :o The reported statistic is 13.0


Except that Foxconn employs something between 400,000 and 800,000 workers (!), depending on where I get the number from.

However, the two errors neatly cancel out, so that -


Is quite correct after all. In fact, you'd expect between 50 and 100 per year for that population, so 10 in 5 months is a little on the low side. (Ignoring all the confounding factors, such that this is only looking at people with jobs, and unemployment is a significant risk factor for suicide.)

All in all, the assertion in the OP is entirely unwarranted based on this data.


I read that, and I had to explode in laugh.

Aepervius note to Aepervius : learn to read , man.

[six7s]

All in all, the assertion in the OP is entirely unwarranted based on this data.Indeed

However, the assertion in the OP is entirely consistent based on his track record of blending incredibly weird and wonderful concoctions of fear-fueled ignorance into exceedingly vague so-called arguments in OPs of threads (http://forums.randi.org/search.php?searchid=501943) that, for him, do nothing other than reinforce his A-grade delusions

[DOC]

This is the price that Chinese workers pay no Labor Unions?

:confused:

Please do explain which module on that course in logic (y'know... the one where you got an A) equipped you with the skills to jump to such conclusions

The module of common sense. I have a feeling you wouldn't want to work 12 hour days for 275 a month, not be able to talk while working, and not be able to walk alone on a company street. Not to mention possibly seeing people fly out the window during your lunch break.

[DOC]

DOC,

Your whole problem here is that you draw wide conclusions from a single instance (a trend I see throughout a majority of your posts).

As I said before, this is a Taiwanese company. In Taiwan -- where they do have labor unions -- they have similar policies, and higher suicide rates.

What is your source that this company's workers are unionized in Taiwan and "those specific unionized workers" of this specific company have have a higher suicide rate than the non-union workers of this company in China?

[Wolfman]

What is your source that this company's workers are unionized in Taiwan and "those specific unionized workers" of this specific company have have a higher suicide rate than the non-union workers of this company in China?
Ya' don't get the irony of this at all, do you?

If you were even remotely as demanding in the evidence you presented for your own claims, people might actually take you seriously.

Fact. Suicide rates in Canada and the U.S. are higher than in China...despite the fact that Canada and the U.S. both allow unions, and both are democratic.

Fact. You've presented not even the slightest iota of evidence to support your assertion that the suicides in the Foxconn factory were because of the lack of a union, or could have been prevented had they had a union.

So I'll make you a proposal.

You do some research to find statistics or facts that demonstrate that suicide rates in non-unionized Chinese factories are higher than in unionized factories in other countries, and then I'll do more research to support my own assertions.

But all I can see now is that to support your arguments, you need only provide on isolated case, no corroborating evidence, and a whole bunch of unsupported conclusions; but if anyone wishes to disagree with you, they have to provide very detailed support for their claims, or you won't even consider it.

YOU are the one who made the claim initially (that these suicides are directly attributable to the lack of labor unions, and presumably that if they'd had a labor union, the suicides wouldn't have happened). I see no reason why I should have to put more time and effort into researching specific information in order to disagree with you, if you can't even find evidence to support the claim in the first place.

[timhau]

The module of common sense.

Is that the one that allows an American direct access to the mind of Chinese factory workers?

[Wolfman]

In the interest of fairness:

A little research revealed that, although unions are legal in Taiwan, Foxconn is not unionized.

This negates my claim above; but does nothing to support DOC's assertion. In order to actually prove his claim, he has to demonstrate that there is a direct correlation between suicide rates, and the unionization (or lack thereof) within companies.

And the fact that suicide rates in countries like Canada and the U.S. are higher than in China, while it doesn't prove that DOC's claim is wrong, certainly goes a long way to raise serious questions as to its validity.

[DOC]

Ya' don't get the irony of this at all, do you?

If you were even remotely as demanding in the evidence you presented for your own claims, people might actually take you seriously.

Fact. Suicide rates in Canada and the U.S. are higher than in China...despite the fact that Canada and the U.S. both allow unions, and both are democratic...

Not according to the World Health Organization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[Taffer]

The module of common sense. I have a feeling you wouldn't want to work 12 hour days for 275 a month, not be able to talk while working, and not be able to walk alone on a company street. Not to mention possibly seeing people fly out the window during your lunch break.

You do realize that the wage, and the number of hours worked per day, is normal for China?

[Wolfman]

Not according to the World Health Organization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
You're both right, and wrong.

So far as I can see, all the suicides have been men (at present, 13 suicides have been attempted, and every report refers only to male victims.)

And China's rate for male suicides is lower than that in Canada and the U.S.

As I mentioned above, China has a freakishly high rate for suicide among women. However, I don't see how this can be attributed to lack of unionization, since men and women are equally un-unionized (and other countries that don't allow unions don't have similarly high rates of female suicides). And it is the female suicide rate that puts China (slightly) ahead of Canada and the U.S. overall.

So, once again.

The challenge issued to you was to demonstrate that there is, in fact, a demonstrable correlation between unionization, and suicide rates.

To take an old example, I can easily prove that almost everyone who dies of cancer drinks milk. That does not mean that there is automatically a correlation between drinking milk, and getting cancer. In order to demonstrate this, one must demonstrate that cancer rates increase proportionately with milk consumption (ie. those who drink less milk are less likely to get cancer).

Similarly, it isn't enough to show that one single factory that doesn't have a union also has a lot of suicides. You have to demonstrate that there is a consistent pattern that companies that have unions have lower rates of suicide than companies that don't.

You've entirely failed to do this. Despite demanding far more detailed and specific proof from those who oppose you.

And hey...I've been as honest as possible, admitting freely when a claim that I made turned out to be false. Let's see if you can demonstrate a similar level of integrity in regards to assessing your own claims.

[DOC]

In the interest of fairness:

A little research revealed that, although unions are legal in Taiwan, Foxconn is not unionized.

This negates my claim above; but does nothing to support DOC's assertion. In order to actually prove his claim, he has to demonstrate that there is a direct correlation between suicide rates, and the unionization (or lack thereof) within companies..

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

[paximperium]

Has DOC boy presented any evidence for any of his assertions yet?

[DOC]

You do realize that the wage, and the number of hours worked per day, is normal for China?And it is also normal that a woman in Saudi Arabia can be killed by her family for having premarital sex.

[DOC]

Has DOC boy presented any evidence for any of his assertions yet?Answer my questions in post 89 and we'll see?

[Foolmewunz]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

Maybe you want to read that article you linked to again. You seem to have missed the point I mentioned earlier, that THE WORKERS THERE ARE UNIONIZED, making much of this thread absurd to at least the fourth power. And now you're misremembering. It does not say they cannot walk alone. It says that if they are in groups, e.g. more than two, they're asked to not walk three-abreast, but go in single file.
And that's a language/interpretation problem. What the rule actually is is an attempt to avoid congestion. Chinese are small-a anarchists when it comes to pedestrian issues. If twenty of them are going one way out of a factory, they'll happily block the twenty coming in the other direction. In order to get them to not do so (there are tens of thousands of workers changing shifts all the time), they ask them to "walk no more than two abreast". Someone mis-translated that as "If there are more than two of you, walk in single file."

But no where does it say, "can't walk on the company street alone". I read the thing this morning, and I could be misremembering, myself, but I'm pretty sure that's not in there (link doesn't work from my office).

[paximperium]

Answer my questions in post 89 and we'll see?
No. Why don't you present some evidence and we'll see?

[Lothian]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?Doc please answer this questions honestly:

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.


In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on?

[Last of the Fraggles]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

If we are talking about China I would bet on factory A paying $1000 a month having the highest suicide rate as the stress from having no business and probably shutting the factory doors would take a toll. Redundancy is probably more of a trigger for suicide than cleaning a toilet.

[Taffer]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

You are forgetting that people in company B might not know any different from what they are experiencing. In China, the working conditions at this factory are normal. Why, then, would a factory worker be more depressed than other workers from another company, if all they know are those conditions?

And it is also normal that a woman in Saudi Arabia can be killed by her family for having premarital sex.

And? What is your point? If these factory workers do not work here, chances are they will have no food to eat. Despite the 'terrible working conditions' that you are talking about, there are still large lines outside the factory every day of people trying to get a job there.

Stop using your western-tinted glasses to view another culture. It's obnoxious.

[kmortis]

Since I don't remember most of the majority responders (Wolfman, Taffer and foolmewunz) in the other DOC thread (you may have lurked, but wisely decided not to post) your requests for evidence will go unansered.

Otherwise, thanks for the info. I never realized how ignorant I was of China before reading this thread. Thanks to you all...

[carlitos]

Stop using your western-tinted glasses to view another culture. It's obnoxious.
You are telling this to a guy who thinks that the English translation of the bible, 1700 years after its writing, is the most reliable version. Good luck with that.

[joobz]

There is a central truth to what DOC is getting at.

Anything which condones the exploitative abuse of employees is immoral.


How about if we were to generate a list of things which would fit that description?

I'll start:
Luke 12:47-48

[Lothian]

There is a central truth to what DOC is getting at.

Anything which condones the exploitative abuse of employees is immoral.


How about if we were to generate a list of things which would fit that description?

I'll start:
Luke 12:47-48Ooooo you are naughty but I like you.

[Malerin]

Ya' don't get the irony of this at all, do you?

If you were even remotely as demanding in the evidence you presented for your own claims, people might actually take you seriously.

Fact. Suicide rates in Canada and the U.S. are higher than in China...despite the fact that Canada and the U.S. both allow unions, and both are democratic.

Where did you get that "fact"?

Even as China has moved to the spot of the world's fourth-largest economy, filling many Chinese with pride, suicide has become the main cause of death in the age group between 15 and 34.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_312205.html

China also doesn't have that good a ranking according to the WHO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Higher than the U.S. and Canada.

[Hokulele]

Where did you get that "fact"?

Even as China has moved to the spot of the world's fourth-largest economy, filling many Chinese with pride, suicide has become the main cause of death in the age group between 15 and 34.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_312205.html

China also doesn't have that good a ranking according to the WHO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Higher than the U.S. and Canada.


Let me guess, you didn't read the whole thread before posting that.

[RoboTimbo]

There is a central truth to what DOC is getting at.

Anything which condones the exploitative abuse of employees is immoral.


How about if we were to generate a list of things which would fit that description?

I'll start:
Luke 12:47-48

You are soooooo going to get a sunburn.

[Malerin]

Let me guess, you didn't read the whole thread before posting that.

I skimmed page 3. I guess I didn't do a very good job of it.

[six7s]

Please do explain which module on that course in logic (y'know... the one where you got an A) equipped you with the skills to jump to such conclusionsThe module of common sense.Bollocks

Either the course that you allegedly took was run by and for idiots or you're lying

Either way, you are applying the logic skills of a muppet; it is NOT logical to "jump to conclusions"


I have a feeling you wouldn't want to work 12 hour days for 275 a month, not be able to talk while working, and not be able to walk alone on a company street. Not to mention possibly seeing people fly out the window during your lunch break.Stop waffling and start addressing the issue: your arguments suck

[Foolmewunz]

I'd like to correct a 'possible misconception that I may have been a part of. The conditions at that factory are not necessarily "normal" for China. They are legal, but they are not, by far, the norm any longer.

Many factories have relaxed many of the personnel controls that Hon Hai Precision thrives on. My first reaction on my first visit was that it's like a military camp. I've noticed no improvement in the return visits. Many of the managers I met are arrogant and derisive of the labour, and they are real big on slick presentation/surface to cover up rather dubious practices. I never did a social compliance audit there, but I'd imagine they'd pass. Like I said, they do it legal... they just don't do it nice.

[Taffer]

I'd like to correct a 'possible misconception that I may have been a part of. The conditions at that factory are not necessarily "normal" for China. They are legal, but they are not, by far, the norm any longer.

Many factories have relaxed many of the personnel controls that Hon Hai Precision thrives on. My first reaction on my first visit was that it's like a military camp. I've noticed no improvement in the return visits. Many of the managers I met are arrogant and derisive of the labour, and they are real big on slick presentation/surface to cover up rather dubious practices. I never did a social compliance audit there, but I'd imagine they'd pass. Like I said, they do it legal... they just don't do it nice.

It seemed pretty much mart and parcel for the factories I've visited. Remember, this factory is the size of a small city. Most of these practices are in place to curb things like theft, which is a real problem in Chinese factories (the stories I could tell...). From western perspectives it may seem cruel, and it may not be as common as it used to be, but I wouldn't say it's uncommon.

[Foolmewunz]

It seemed pretty much mart and parcel for the factories I've visited. Remember, this factory is the size of a small city. Most of these practices are in place to curb things like theft, which is a real problem in Chinese factories (the stories I could tell...). From western perspectives it may seem cruel, and it may not be as common as it used to be, but I wouldn't say it's uncommon.

I've been to very many, though, that have evolved over the past five years and do not have such rigid controls, do not have them in uniforms, and have a very good rate of return on their out-of-province workers. Many larger complexes give the workers free access to the city beyond the gates, something that Hon Hai definitely limits.

[Taffer]

I've been to very many, though, that have evolved over the past five years and do not have such rigid controls, do not have them in uniforms, and have a very good rate of return on their out-of-province workers. Many larger complexes give the workers free access to the city beyond the gates, something that Hon Hai definitely limits.

Fair enough. I guess it depends on the size of the factory, and the kind of work being done there. I suspect that theft is a major contributing factor for these policies. I can also state with some confidence that Taiwanese owned factories generally have higher salaries and better workplace safety than, for example, Chinese owned factories.

[Foolmewunz]

Fair enough. I guess it depends on the size of the factory, and the kind of work being done there. I suspect that theft is a major contributing factor for these policies. I can also state with some confidence that Taiwanese owned factories generally have higher salaries and better workplace safety than, for example, Chinese owned factories.

I don't think I'd make that statement considering the some 75,000 Taiwanese owned businesses in China. I've encountered some very good ones (Quanta comes to mind) and some very bad ones. The single condition that is there when you find a well-run worker-friendly factory environment is commercial pressure. If the clients put the squeeze on the factories, the factories get better. If the clients make cursory visits which are then followed up by a merchandising guy screaming at them on the phone for an hour because he needs his 4,000 chairs by the 17th and doesn't give a damn how many hours Mei Ling has to work? Well, the factory goes right back to its old ways.

[Taffer]

I don't think I'd make that statement considering the some 75,000 Taiwanese owned businesses in China. I've encountered some very good ones (Quanta comes to mind) and some very bad ones.

And how do these compare to Chinese owned factories? Or Japanese?

The single condition that is there when you find a well-run worker-friendly factory environment is commercial pressure. If the clients put the squeeze on the factories, the factories get better. If the clients make cursory visits which are then followed up by a merchandising guy screaming at them on the phone for an hour because he needs his 4,000 chairs by the 17th and doesn't give a damn how many hours Mei Ling has to work? Well, the factory goes right back to its old ways.

Absolutely. And this comes back to my original point. Placing the blame solely on the factories shows an ignorance of the role customers play in the over all process. I worked in a factory that had both American and Japanese clients, and I can tell you that Japanese clients, while much more particular about their products, are not nearly as obnoxious as some American clients. The number of times we would ask for confirmation on a product, only to receive it too late to complete the order on time, despite the fact that receiving confirmation was a condition of the initial contract. Then they would blame us for not working fast enough.

Look, I'm not sitting here defending anything, but I do think that a lot of the comments being thrown are by people from the west who simply do not know what it's like for these factory workers. When you have no option but to work at a factory, with the only other option being starvation, working 12 hours suddenly doesn't seem too bad.

[Foolmewunz]

And how do these compare to Chinese owned factories? Or Japanese?



Absolutely. And this comes back to my original point. Placing the blame solely on the factories shows an ignorance of the role customers play in the over all process. I worked in a factory that had both American and Japanese clients, and I can tell you that Japanese clients, while much more particular about their products, are not nearly as obnoxious as some American clients. The number of times we would ask for confirmation on a product, only to receive it too late to complete the order on time, despite the fact that receiving confirmation was a condition of the initial contract. Then they would blame us for not working fast enough.

Look, I'm not sitting here defending anything, but I do think that a lot of the comments being thrown are by people from the west who simply do not know what it's like for these factory workers. When you have no option but to work at a factory, with the only other option being starvation, working 12 hours suddenly doesn't seem too bad.

To be clear, I'm not defending any of them, either. I re-posted here, in fact, because I was afraid that some of my earlier posts might have seemed to be supportive of Hon Hai.

As to well-run Chinese companies. Yes, there are quite a few. Ningbo Beifa comes to mind. I'm at a disadvantage, though, as I really can't name names without creating problems with NDAs my company has in place. But Beifa is a prime example of what I said earlier. They want to sell to the monster office supply chains: Staples, Office Max, Office Depot, Kinko-FedEx. In order to do so, they have had to pass some pretty tough inspections. Rather than glossing things over, though, they actually implemented the policies and made them part of the corporate culture.

My experience with the Japanese vs American vs European clients is somewhat different. I can break their behaviour down by business category. The big retailers (multi-product) tend to be much more socially conscientious. The HiTech are animals. The garment companies are penny-pinchers and will look the other way on any corner-cutting as long as the garment passes QC. Electrical appliance and machinery buyers tend to care about the engineering quality of the products, and thus tend to tie-in to longer relationships. Those guys are very very supportive of their own social compliance auditors and I've known one of them to cancel contracts with a company that refused to adjust its working hours, for instance.

By all of this I mean that Canon or Hitachi are more likely to behave like Apple or Dell than, say, Sogo. And Sogo's more likely to behave like Federated Stores than, say, Honda.

[Taffer]

To be clear, I'm not defending any of them, either. I re-posted here, in fact, because I was afraid that some of my earlier posts might have seemed to be supportive of Hon Hai.

As to well-run Chinese companies. Yes, there are quite a few. Ningbo Beifa comes to mind. I'm at a disadvantage, though, as I really can't name names without creating problems with NDAs my company has in place. But Beifa is a prime example of what I said earlier. They want to sell to the monster office supply chains: Staples, Office Max, Office Depot, Kinko-FedEx. In order to do so, they have had to pass some pretty tough inspections. Rather than glossing things over, though, they actually implemented the policies and made them part of the corporate culture.

My experience with the Japanese vs American vs European clients is somewhat different. I can break their behaviour down by business category. The big retailers (multi-product) tend to be much more socially conscientious. The HiTech are animals. The garment companies are penny-pinchers and will look the other way on any corner-cutting as long as the garment passes QC. Electrical appliance and machinery buyers tend to care about the engineering quality of the products, and thus tend to tie-in to longer relationships. Those guys are very very supportive of their own social compliance auditors and I've known one of them to cancel contracts with a company that refused to adjust its working hours, for instance.

By all of this I mean that Canon or Hitachi are more likely to behave like Apple or Dell than, say, Sogo. And Sogo's more likely to behave like Federated Stores than, say, Honda.

We are basically in agreement, and you have much more experience than I. Thanks for an interesting discussion. :)

[daenku32]

The place is like a prison. If anyone needs a union it's that place.

[Last of the Fraggles]

The place is like a prison.

No it isn't. For a start the people are free to leave whenever they like. Nobody is forcing them to work there.

[Foolmewunz]

The place is like a prison. If anyone needs a union it's that place.

Oh, you've been there, too? What was it like on your last visit...., which was when? Because two weeks ago it didn't look much like a prison to me. It looked more like a military camp - meaning they treat the workers like soldiers rather than at will labour, which is what they're supposed to be, but it certainly doesn't look much like what I've seen of pics and videos of Chinese prisons.

[daenku32]

No it isn't. For a start the people are free to leave whenever they like. Nobody is forcing them to work there.

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

[Kay]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

Well, the environment around me forces me to work, otherwise I end up being thrown out on the streets. Am I a prisoner?

[Last of the Fraggles]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

They aren't forced though. They go there through choice. If they don't want to they can go elsewhere.

Just like you don't have to buy the products if you don't like the way they are made.

[Foolmewunz]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.

And that work your doing? It's...... ???

[gabeygoat]

Oh, yeah ! Labor unions have always been at the forefront of suicide prevention..

If you don't count the dissolution of a large work force like the air traffic controllers...

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.

[six7s]

It makes no difference to me whether it is a person or the environment that is forcing me to do something. In either case I work to change that force.And that work your doing? It's...... ???... to change the force, of course!

Do not assume anything, Foolmi-Wanz. Clear, your mind must be if you are to discover the real villains behind the plot

The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, daenku32 would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure.

[six7s]

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.All right... all right... but... apart from the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days, the aqueducts, roads, irrigation, sanitation, medicine, wine, fresh water, education, public baths and public order... what have the unions done for us?

[DOC]

Maybe you want to read that article you linked to again. You seem to have missed the point I mentioned earlier, that THE WORKERS THERE ARE UNIONIZED, making much of this thread absurd to at least the fourth power...

Nowhere in the article does it say the workers at that company are unionized. In fact someone in here already admitted they aren't after looking into it.

[MikeMangum]

no, but they gave us the five day work week, the 40 hour work week, no child labor, overtime, 8 hour days etc.

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining. If unions wanted to limit themselves to voluntary associations of workers who work to influence labor policy, I would be all for it, but I can't stand the hypocrasy that says that when capital colludes to set prices (a cartel) it is morally wrong, but someone it is ok when labor does the exact same thing.

[DOC]

Let's say there are two companies. The workers at Company A have a 40 hour work week, are paid 1000 dollars a month, can talk to co-workers while working their 8 hour shift, can walk on the company street alone if they want, and can go to a union representative if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

The workers at company B have a 60 hour work week, are paid 300 a month, can't talk while working their 12 hour shift, can't walk on the company street alone if they want, and have no recourse if their boss makes them clean a toilet as punishment.

Now please answer these questions honestly:

In you were forced to bet $1000 on which company's workers would likely have the higher suicide rate over a period of 10 years which company would you bet on? A, B, Either one because the odds should be the same.

Also in your opinion would the workers of company B be more likely to get the same working conditions of company A with or without union representation?

Has DOC boy presented any evidence for any of his assertions yet?

If you answer my 2 questions about company A and B you'll get your evidence. I doubt you'll respond to those questions.

[zooterkin]

If you answer my 2 questions about company A and B you'll get your evidence. I doubt you'll respond to those questions.

You've already had answers to your questions; didn't you like them?

[DOC]

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining.That's kind of like saying the right for women to vote did not come about because of the actions of women but because of legislation.

Here is some info on the part labor played in the 8 Hour day from the Wiki article "8_Hour_Day"

"In 1864, the eight-hour day quickly became a central demand of the Chicago labor movement. The Illinois legislature passed a law in early 1867 granting an eight-hour day but had so many loopholes that it was largely ineffective. A city-wide strike that began on May 1, 1867 shut down the city's economy for a week before collapsing. On June 25, 1868 Congress passed an eight-hour law for federal employees [3] which was also of limited effectiveness. (On May 19, 1869, Grant signed a National Eight Hour Law Proclamation.[4])

In August 1866 the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

[littlehulkster]

This is one of the milder things that happens to the Chinese proletariat, really. Their government is Communist in name only, just like their Labor Unions are such in name only. They're all pawns of the government, which is in a serious ultra-capitalist kick right now.

China is not a nice place to live or work (For non-connected Chinese, that is, rich foreigners and connected Chinese have an easier time), but we ignore that because the West is so dependent on their cheap labor to maintain it's lifestyle.

I find it abhorrent, myself, and refuse to buy products which are made by exploited workers if I can help it (Sadly, I often can't), but I seem to be a minority in thinking it's wrong to cause death and suffering for my own vanity.

[Foolmewunz]

Nowhere in the article does it say the workers at that company are unionized. In fact someone in here already admitted they aren't after looking into it.

You're not real good at this, are you?


You need to read again, DOC. You've posted more than one article link. Try the one in one in your post #57.

https://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=25887


The series of apparent or attempted suicides has shaken the management of China's largest electronics manufacturer. Liu Kun, 40, who calls himself the director of media relations, goes around in a sweat-soaked shirt. He avoids the word "factory," preferring the word "campus" - as if Foxconn were a university. In a battery-driven golf cart - steered by Chen Hongfang, second in command at the company union, which is controlled by the Communist Party - Liu shows a visitor around the palm-lined streets. They want to prove how good the workers have it.





And Wolfman commented that the Hon Hai workers IN TAIWAN are not unionized. He said nothing about the workers in Shenzhen.

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>
I find it abhorrent, myself, and refuse to buy products which are made by exploited workers if I can help it (Sadly, I often can't), but I seem to be a minority in thinking it's wrong to cause death and suffering for my own vanity.

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

[littlehulkster]

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

I said exploited workers, that is a term which applies to all workers, which is why I only buy products which are union made in the United States or Canada if I can help it, although European products will also work in a pinch. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Also, I noticed you're in Hong Kong. Do you profit off exploitation (Which I assume, judging from these questions and your perfect English) or are you just an especially sociopathic and well connected Chinese person?

[Foolmewunz]

I said exploited workers, that is a term which applies to all workers, which is why I only buy products which are union made in the United States or Canada if I can help it, although European products will also work in a pinch. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Why do you automatically assume that union workers in North America aren't exploited? You must not be sufficiently far left to have heard the argument that since the rampant union-busting of the 70s Union Management is often as bad as Management Management when it comes to taking advantage of the labourer.
But you have no respect for the unions in Europe? Some are rather better than the ones in North America when it comes to looking after their workers, you know?


Also, I noticed you're in Hong Kong. Do you profit off exploitation (Which I assume, judging from these questions and your perfect English) or are you just an especially sociopathic and well connected Chinese person?

Actually, I'm just terribly precocious. That's my actual picture in the avatar.

What do you mean by "profiting off of exploitation"? How many jobs can you name that are not somehow profiting off of someone who's being exploited?
For instance, what do you do? (My history is all over these boards.)

And why would my English skills lead you to make any assumption whatsoever as to the fact that I profit from the exploitation of others. As to your comment on sociopathic? Well, I just bolded that for you. I think people should sometimes be fed their regurgitated material when they're mouthing hyperbole just as a matter of course.

[Last of the Fraggles]

China is not a nice place to live or work

Are you speaking from experience? I would say there are 100s of millions of Chinese who would strongly disagree with that.

There are problems in China. There are many people who live terrible lives.

I would say the same is true to a greater or lesser extent in many countries - certainly in the UK and the US.

China is not however, some Communist hellhole where the people are stomped upon and oppressed on a daily basis. Its a developing country with a weird political situation and history. Is it worse than India? We don't often here about the working conditions there but then I guess India isn't seen as the Boogeyman?

[Toke]

Legislatures did those things; they did not come about because of collective bargaining. If unions wanted to limit themselves to voluntary associations of workers who work to influence labor policy, I would be all for it, but I can't stand the hypocrasy that says that when capital colludes to set prices (a cartel) it is morally wrong, but someone it is ok when labor does the exact same thing.

You are ignoring a rather important point here.

If one employee try to negotiate with the company, he will be told "take it, or leave it" because the company can afford loosing one employee.

If a representative of all the employees negotiate, the company will suddenly have to take him serious as the negotiations will be on even terms.

It is called collective bargaining, try not to confuse it with industry cartels.

[Toke]

How do you, personally, determine which labourers are exploited? Do you lump all Chinese producers into one big negative bundle, or do you have a ratings service or consumer watchdog organization that you go to?

Same question: Workers in India
Same question: Workers in Viet Nam
Same question: Workers in Bangladesh
Same question: Workers in Indonesia
Same question: Workers in Lesotho
Same question: Workers in Guatemala
Same question: Workers in Mexico

Not to mention Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, The Philippines, Korea, Bolivia, Brasil, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Turkmenistan, Jordan, ......

Don't try to confuse us with reality, you are clearly evil, and can just as well own up and admit it. :D

[Last of the Fraggles]

. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Wow... just wow.

I'll have to go and tell the sister in law who works for Samsung in Seoul that she is an 'exploited worker'. After that, I'll pass the message on to some of my buds in Intel, LG and Sony. Maybe we should start up some kind of charity for these guys? Only problem I can see is that they are all making more money than me!

[Last of the Fraggles]

You are ignoring a rather important point here.

If one employee try to negotiate with the company, he will be told "take it, or leave it" because the company can afford loosing one employee.

If a representative of all the employees negotiate, the company will suddenly have to take him serious as the negotiations will be on even terms.

It is called collective bargaining, try not to confuse it with industry cartels.

And if the industry got together to 'collectively bargain' a pay rate that would be OK too?

[Toke]

And if the industry got together to 'collectively bargain' a pay rate that would be OK too?

Yes, and that is how it works, every 10-20 years there will be nationwide strikes when disagreements over pay/work conditions escalate, and every union and employers association decide to remind the other side who is the stronger and have the most strike/lockout savings.

The only alternative I see is the employer v.s. each employee individually, you can see the results in most 3. world countries.

[Foolmewunz]

Hey! Come back, little crusader! Please! Pretty please!


Is it something I said? I can't seem to get these altruists to answer when I try to zero in on their actual good deeds (does a do gooder do good deeds).

I'm still waiting for that other crusader rabbit to 'splain me something about how he's supporting the workers. (Or was that the same person.)

I'm beginning to feel like Dorothy. What was that quote about people sure do come and go real fast around here?

[timhau]

I said exploited workers, that is a term which applies to all workers, which is why I only buy products which are union made in the United States or Canada if I can help it, although European products will also work in a pinch. The only time I don't have a choice is electronics, which are almost never made by non-exploited workers these days.

Sure you have a choice. You can go without the product. Most electronics stuff isn't a necessity.

[Taffer]

Also, I noticed you're in Hong Kong. Do you profit off exploitation (Which I assume, judging from these questions and your perfect English) or are you just an especially sociopathic and well connected Chinese person?

Define exploitation.

Are any of the workers forced to work there? Are any of the workers held prisoner, unable to leave their job? Are any of the workers beaten, starved, dehydrated or provided with terrible living conditions? No? Then you don't know what you're talking about.

[Taffer]

Hey! Come back, little crusader! Please! Pretty please!

Don't waste your breath. I've noticed a disturbing trend of "if it isn't the same as how it's done in my country, then it's wrong".

[Filippo Lippi]

Don't waste your breath. I've noticed a disturbing trend of "if it isn't the same as how it's done in my country, then it's wrong".

You seemed to have missed the "it's because they're atheists, not perfect christians like DOC" elephant that DOC rode in on and parked in the corner of your room.

[littlehulkster]

Why do you automatically assume that union workers in North America aren't exploited? You must not be sufficiently far left to have heard the argument that since the rampant union-busting of the 70s Union Management is often as bad as Management Management when it comes to taking advantage of the labourer.

I'm actually a union organizer, so I know all about the issues of American unions. If you have a problem with the local, it's probably due to apathy with the union politics. The major problems facing internationals now is that they are spineless and would rather bend over than fight.

Unions like the UE and IWW are a lot better about this, but they lack the pull of the AFL-CIO.

But you have no respect for the unions in Europe? Some are rather better than the ones in North America when it comes to looking after their workers, you know?

Lots of respect for them, as well as South Korean unions, but being as their products are less available and I am myself an American Union worker, I look for US made first.

Actually, I'm just terribly precocious. That's my actual picture in the avatar.

Exactly why would you white knight a horrible and oppressive regime, then?

What do you mean by "profiting off of exploitation"? How many jobs can you name that are not somehow profiting off of someone who's being exploited?
For instance, what do you do? (My history is all over these boards.)

I mean that since you live in Hong Kong, chances are good you are in an industry which is directly oppressing third world workers for massive profits.

Work need not be oppressive, that is why labor unions and socialist economics were invented, the problem is the ability and/or desire to implement these solutions.

As for myself, I was a Police Officer for many years, then I resigned due to horrible corruption of the force. I now work as an Electrician for a charity group that renovates and upgrades the homes of the poor in this region. We are especially focused on the Indian Reservations.

I'm sure all those people who aren't dying of exposure now think me an oppressor.

And why would my English skills lead you to make any assumption whatsoever as to the fact that I profit from the exploitation of others. As to your comment on sociopathic? Well, I just bolded that for you. I think people should sometimes be fed their regurgitated material when they're mouthing hyperbole just as a matter of course.

The fact that you speak perfect English in a country that does not speak it means you are either a foreigner or a wealthy and well connected Chinese, either of which makes even more sense in Hong Kong. This would also explain why you're sticking up for a nation that uses mobile execution vans to kill the homeless prior to the Olympics, and seems to think driving tanks through crowds of protesters in Tibet is perfectly acceptable riot control.

I could keep going on, actually. Amnesty International has lots on China.



Are any of the workers forced to work there? Yes. Are any of the workers held prisoner, unable to leave their job? Yes. Are any of the workers beaten, starved, dehydrated or provided with terrible living conditions? Yes.

No? Then you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, me, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs and watchdog groups are all morons, only the mighty intellect of Taffer can prevail.

[six7s]

I could keep going on, actually. Amnesty International has lots on China.Perhaps...

Amnesty International has lots on the USA (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/usa), too

What is your point?

[Foolmewunz]

I'm actually a union organizer, so I know all about the issues of American unions. If you have a problem with the local, it's probably due to apathy with the union politics. The major problems facing internationals now is that they are spineless and would rather bend over than fight.

Unions like the UE and IWW are a lot better about this, but they lack the pull of the AFL-CIO.



Lots of respect for them, as well as South Korean unions, but being as their products are less available and I am myself an American Union worker, I look for US made first.



Exactly why would you white knight a horrible and oppressive regime, then?



I mean that since you live in Hong Kong, chances are good you are in an industry which is directly oppressing third world workers for massive profits.

Work need not be oppressive, that is why labor unions and socialist economics were invented, the problem is the ability and/or desire to implement these solutions.

As for myself, I was a Police Officer for many years, then I resigned due to horrible corruption of the force. I now work as an Electrician for a charity group that renovates and upgrades the homes of the poor in this region. We are especially focused on the Indian Reservations.

I'm sure all those people who aren't dying of exposure now think me an oppressor.



The fact that you speak perfect English in a country that does not speak it means you are either a foreigner or a wealthy and well connected Chinese, either of which makes even more sense in Hong Kong. This would also explain why you're sticking up for a nation that uses mobile execution vans to kill the homeless prior to the Olympics, and seems to think driving tanks through crowds of protesters in Tibet is perfectly acceptable riot control.

I could keep going on, actually. Amnesty International has lots on China.



Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, me, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs and watchdog groups are all morons, only the mighty intellect of Taffer can prevail.


Oooh, let's compare scars, then.
Daddy was a union organizer on the Standard Fruit pier in New Orleans, Mommy was a rabid civil rights advocate (so much so that she sort of got us driven out of town by the White Citizens' Council). I spent much of my childhood (late 50s to mid-60s) in various demonstrations, sit-ins, and voter's right drives. I think I learned how to stuff envelopes with solicitations before I was potty trained.
I continued with this trend in my yute. The Pentagon? Did an overnighter in lockup for that one. Lincoln Park? An overnighter and a tiny little scar from getting my head busted. Spent a decade in Canada as a draft resistor.
I'm a high school dropout who's worked his way up, an inch at a time, in the shipping business. Loaded cargo, drove forklifts, delivered documents, etc...

How'd you do? Your Magic 8 Ball seems to need some new juice. About 1 out of 10? And that's only if I concede that all businesses are somehow exploitative of third world workers so in some way I suppose I am, too. I'm still involved in causes over here, but I channel some of my employer's greed to get it done. We've opened two schools (which we sponsor) in rural China, and created/built a fruit orchard in another area so that the villagers have a marketable commodity.

If you want to discuss China, go start a thread. A couple of us who appear to be all-forgiving are, in fact, rather even-tempered business types, but we're also both involved in a number of local causes and are very critical of the local, regional, and national governments and their policies. I believe if you look closely you'll note that we're not blindly defending anything. We're just trying to make sure that if you're going to start brandishing those great big brushes full of tar, that you're hitting the right targets.


Don't make assumptions. You know what they say about that.

School is out. Go, and sin no more. ;)

[Taffer]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

At this particular factory? If you think so, I'd like to see you provide evidence.

Yeah, me, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and countless other NGOs and watchdog groups are all morons, only the mighty intellect of Taffer can prevail.

Show me evidence that workers at this factory are force to work there without pay, unable to leave at any time they no longer wish to work there, and beaten, starved and dehydrated.

[six7s]

At this particular factory? If you think so, I'd like to see you provide evidence.I don't know about this Foxconn factory, nor was I talking about it.This is what's known as 'thread drift (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5669826#post5669826)'

I was talking about the serious abuses of human rights perpetrated by the Chinese government against all workers, especially those who dare to speak up.Great topic!

If you are seriously intent on discussing "the serious abuses of human rights perpetrated by the Chinese government against all workers", please start another thread... here in Economics, Business and Finance (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=83) or maybe in Non-USA & General Politics (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=98) or perhaps in the Social Issues & Current Events (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=82) sub-forum

[Foolmewunz]

mea culpa


Sometimes I can't resist troll candy.

[six7s]

mea culpa


Sometimes I can't resist troll candy.Twice the fat and half the taste... yup... irresistible!


;)

[Taffer]

I don't know about this Foxconn factory, nor was I talking about it.

Well, I was. There may be some bad factories in China, but this isn't one of them.

I was talking about the serious abuses of human rights perpetrated by the Chinese government against all workers, especially those who dare to speak up.

Against all workers? You don't know what you are talking about.

I have worked in a factory in China. Not once was a worker mysteriously taken away and killed by the government. You are painting a picture with a very, very, broad brush. Have you even been to China? Do you even know what the conditions there are like?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china

No mention of factory workers in the first few pages. Besides, a few cases does not equal the entire workforce.

That and more. Although, I doubt it will sway you at all, you already seem to have the Reganite neo-liberal bug, the only thing that can cure that is a blindfold and cigarette.

Reganite neo-liberal bug? What the hell are you blathering on about?

You haven't swayed me because you don't know what you are talking about. I live and work in an East Asian country, and have worked in factories on the Chinese mainland. You, apparently, have never been there.

I do not like the Chinese government. They are corrupt and self serving, but the way you paint them is simply ludicrous.

[Foolmewunz]

And to bring it back on topic, let me reiterate for Little Hulkster.

I have been to THIS PARTICULAR FACTORY. I know the company. I have been to their headquarters in Taiwan. I know their methods of business and I've seen the plant in action. I've also seen the workers leaving during their breaks or after their shifts are done.

What I have not seen:
Armed guards. There are none. The security doesn't even carry weapons.
Military patrols/escorts. There are none.
Chains, manacles(sic?), whipping posts, stocks, dunking stools, gallows.... All none.

As I said, the comparison to prison conditions is inaccurate. The comparison I made, that it's similar to the kind of discipline you'll see on a military base, is more accurate.

[Puppycow]

Workers at Chinese Honda Plant March in Protest (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/business/global/11strike.html?hp)

China Inflation Rises to a 19-Month High (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/12/business/global/12yuan.html?hp)

Fresh data from China on Friday further cemented the view that the country’s giant economy continued to power ahead in May — though a marked rise in inflation also raised the pressure on Beijing to step up efforts to damp the booming pace of growth.

Friday’s figures, part of a monthly flood of statistics from Beijing, showed consumer prices rose at their fastest rate in 19 months, at a pace of 3.1 percent from a year earlier. Across China, workers are beginning to strike for higher wages, which could cause inflation to rise further.

Industrial production and retail sales also powered along forcefully, figures showed Friday, while data out on Thursday revealed imports and exports both topped analyst expectations by a wide margin. Property prices continued to soar in May.

The strong economic data come despite debt concerns and fiscal austerity measures across Europe, China’s biggest trading partner.

[Malerin]

Managers use a variety of tactics to prevent workers from resigning. Internal migrants are typically owed back pay, meaning those who quit their job lose at least 2-3 months' wages. Employers often purposefully withhold wages before the Lunar New Year to ensure workers come back to their jobs after the holiday period -- meaning millions of migrants are unable to buy train tickets home for the holidays. Managers often illegally force workers to pay a deposit to prevent those switching jobs. Because of their insecure status under the hukou system, internal migrants are not likely to complain.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGUSA20070301001

[littlehulkster]

Managers use a variety of tactics to prevent workers from resigning. Internal migrants are typically owed back pay, meaning those who quit their job lose at least 2-3 months' wages. Employers often purposefully withhold wages before the Lunar New Year to ensure workers come back to their jobs after the holiday period -- meaning millions of migrants are unable to buy train tickets home for the holidays. Managers often illegally force workers to pay a deposit to prevent those switching jobs. Because of their insecure status under the hukou system, internal migrants are not likely to complain.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGUSA20070301001

No! Don't look behind the curtain! China is the best nation on earth and has NEVER done anything wrong!

If you notice, only the people who make money off the Chinese workers argue that China is fine. Wonder why that is?

[carlitos]

littlehulkster, you have been asked more than once to create a topic about "Chinese workers" in general, where your general comments will be on-topic. This topic is about one factory, and you haven't posted anything on-topic in quite a while. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? You aren't acquitting yourself well here.

Especially note this post. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6014299#post6014299)

[Toke]

I have not noticed anyone arguing that China is a nice place to be a worker.

[kmortis]

I have not noticed anyone arguing that China is a nice place to be a worker.
Nor has anyone been able to support the idea that No Unions = Suicide. While I'm sure that the work envrionment that I enjoy is worlds ahead of anything the Tiwanese workers at the Foxconn factory endure, I don't think the addition of a union will solve all their ills.

[Toke]

Nor has anyone been able to support the idea that No Unions = Suicide. While I'm sure that the work envrionment that I enjoy is worlds ahead of anything the Tiwanese workers at the Foxconn factory endure, I don't think the addition of a union will solve all their ills.

My pay and work conditions is not only a result of 150 years of union battle, the general changes in society and wealth have an influence too. :)

I don't think China is really ready for real unions. They would just be another state organ.

[Taffer]

Nor has anyone been able to support the idea that No Unions = Suicide. While I'm sure that the work envrionment that I enjoy is worlds ahead of anything the Tiwanese workers at the Foxconn factory endure, I don't think the addition of a union will solve all their ills.

For the record, Taiwanese workers in Taiwanese-owned factories on the mainland generally have high positions at the factory, and generally have much better working conditions.

[Taffer]

No! Don't look behind the curtain! China is the best nation on earth and has NEVER done anything wrong!

If you notice, only the people who make money off the Chinese workers argue that China is fine. Wonder why that is?

No-one actually said that.

[NewtonTrino]

I make money off of the chinese by getting cheaper goods and I'm hugely in favor of us forcing better labor conditions for them.

[KDLadage]

I make no money off of China. All I did was spend two years studying the nation as a part of my History Minor.

They have their issues, sure. But they are not evil.

I work in America -- but do not make more if you love this government or not. I am as patriotic an individual as you are likely to encounter.

America is a good nation. But we are not without our flaws.

China != America/England/The West. They have issues we cannot fathom; just as we have some they would not want to deal with. As a whole, they are doing what they can.

But... no issue China faces will be solved by adding a labor union to the mix; very few would even be improved; many others would even be exacerbated.

imho, ymmv, yadda yadda yadda...

[DOC]

...no issue China faces will be solved by adding a labor union to the mix; very few would even be improved; many others would even be exacerbated

It looks like change is coming and there are Chinese workers who would disagree with you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10347877.stm

[zooterkin]

It looks like change is coming and there are Chinese workers who would disagree with you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/10347877.stm

Where does it mention unions in that article?

[DOC]

Where does it mention unions in that article?

Isn't that what a union is -- an organized group of workers who work together to improve their working conditions? A rose by any other name is still is still the same.

[joobz]

Isn't that what a union is -- an organized group of workers who work together to improve their working conditions? A rose by any other name is still is still the same.

What's another name for a bond-servant?

[six7s]

Isn't that what a union is -- an organized group of workers who work together to improve their working conditions? A rose by any other name is still is still the same.What's another name for a bond-servant?Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6047896#post6047896) :)

[DOC]

When the Chinese are beating our brains in...

What does this mean?

Go around your house and find 10 items you've bought in the last 2 years over $10, look on the bottom and see where they were made.

I think there are several reasons why the Chinese are outproducing other countries. Here is what I think is a big reason:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283389/Apple-boss-Steve-Jobs-defends-China-Foxconn-factory-conditions-10-suicides.html

[zooterkin]

Go around your house and find 10 items you've bought in the last 2 years over $10, look on the bottom and see where they were made.

I think there are several reasons why the Chinese are outproducing other countries. Here is what I think is a big reason:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1283389/Apple-boss-Steve-Jobs-defends-China-Foxconn-factory-conditions-10-suicides.html

So, you're ignoring the last 4 pages of this thread, and just reposting the same link you started the thread with? Colour me unsurprised.

[DOC]

Whoops, the above got put in the wrong thread, I meant to put it in the politics forum in the Trump thread, oh, well, I'll do that now.

[Filippo Lippi]

Lacist