PDA

View Full Version : From whence do atheists derive base reasons?


Gestahl
2nd February 2004, 03:10 PM
Hi All,

A newly burgeoning bright/skeptic/whichever. After several years of long, personal thinking and discussion with others, I have rejected my previous religious affiliations. My question and line of reasoning is this for us atheists...

1) If there is no God then that removes the need for a purpose of humanities existance... we just are.

This I have no problem with, though since this is the premise, you may take issue with it.

2) If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions? Why do anything?

This may just be the result of my tearing down my whole reality and building it up again, or mild depression, or something else, but I see no reasons beyond the few listed below to drive individual action:

1) Personal happiness

Useless really, since this is transient and ill-defined, and easily attributable to my own brain chemistry. This is not a worthy goal, plenty of drugs can do this for me.

2) Perpetuation of one's self/species

Useless again. The perpetuation of the species does nothing for me as I won't be around for it, and I am debating the usefulness of it anyway. Perpetuating myself is worthless unless I can find a good reason for my continued existence...

Any other reason can be I think reduced to #1: you like it and it makes you happy. Hedonism is a very shallow and hollow existence, simply because boredom sets in. From whence can one derive ethics, morals, or any other system for giving purpose for action or continued existence simply from existence? Why continue to do anything, other than the strong biological imperative to remain alive, and thus reproduce? I fear that my decision to follow the tenets of critical thinking and logical thinking have run afoul...

c4ts
2nd February 2004, 03:21 PM
All your base reasons are belong to us.

Upchurch
2nd February 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Gestahl
2) If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions? Why do anything?

{snip}

2) Perpetuation of one's self/speciesCall it useless if you like, I think this is the driving motivator behind most, if not all, of our personality traits, social structure and morals. Nobody really agrees on the particulars, but I think this is what is behind it all.

Gestahl
2nd February 2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
Call it useless if you like, I think this is the driving motivator behind most, if not all, of our personality traits, social structure and morals. Nobody really agrees on the particulars, but I think this is what is behind it all.

If that is the primary cause, then I am a slave to the biological imperative. This is no better than being the slave to religious imperative. It is just substituting one value system for another with no consious reason why you should follow either. For the first known time, a species has the capability to *not* follow their biological instincts (I personally believe in free will, though in the case of biological instincts this belief is certainly called under question). I think that is significant. Perhaps I overstated my position in the thread parent, but continuing for the sake of continued existence is a pretty silly reason for anything!

Mercutio
2nd February 2004, 04:19 PM
Do you really think most people actually have reasons for what they do? I think a case can be made for the notion that we do what we do for essentially random reasons, or no reason at all, and justify our actions after the fact in terms of whatever is handy.

For such times when I do think about reasons that heavy, my reasoning is...hey, I love my kids. I expect I will love my grandkids. I would just as soon they live in the best world I can possibly help make for them. There are other people I care about too--family and friends, and some people here I have never even met. I would kind of prefer the world was a nice place for them, too. Is this rational? I really don't care.

geni
2nd February 2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Gestahl
If that is the primary cause, then I am a slave to the biological imperative.


Well of course. If you were not the species would not be here.

TheERK
2nd February 2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Gestahl
1) Personal happiness

Useless really, since this is transient and ill-defined, and easily attributable to my own brain chemistry. This is not a worthy goal, plenty of drugs can do this for me.

2) Perpetuation of one's self/species

Useless again. The perpetuation of the species does nothing for me as I won't be around for it, and I am debating the usefulness of it anyway. Perpetuating myself is worthless unless I can find a good reason for my continued existence...

Any other reason can be I think reduced to #1: you like it and it makes you happy. Hedonism is a very shallow and hollow existence, simply because boredom sets in.

Hi!

Re #1, how can you possibly call personal happiness 'useless'? Transience is not an indication of uselessness; just because something must pass does not mean it is meaningless or useless.

If you can constantly take drugs and be happy (and help those around you be happy), good for you. Go drug crazy. However, due to our brain chemistry, this isn't going to happen. Eventually, the effects of the drugs will not be as good as they used to be.

Hedonism isn't necessarily shallow, unless you decide that you don't care about other people's happiness (something not implied by hedonism.) The pursuit of happiness, in my opinion, is almost the exact opposite of a 'hollow' life; how better to fill a hollow life than with joy, happiness, entertainment, friendship, and pure, raw, pleasure? Boredom doesn't really matter: I've never seen anybody get bored with happiness. If you're totally bored, you simply aren't happy anymore, and you need to do something differently.

As for #2, this is a strangely worded question: what do you mean by 'useless'? Perpetuating the species is simply something that must happen as a result of natural selection.

Eric

exarch
2nd February 2004, 05:43 PM
Your poll is lacking both the option to check more than one option (I do nice things for people for a variety of reasons) and a planet X option (but you're new, so that's forgiven :p).

Actually, we do nice things because they make us feel good, or make us look good. They make us and others happy. That's all there's to it.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
2nd February 2004, 06:37 PM
Gestahl said:
1) If there is no God then that removes the need for a purpose of humanities existance... we just are.

This I have no problem with, though since this is the premise, you may take issue with it.
Why is it that everyone who is searching for a purpose for humanity doesn't seem to think that humanity can make up its own purpose? So yes, I disagree with your premise.

Welcome!

~~ Paul

UserGoogol
2nd February 2004, 07:03 PM
I've been thinking personal happiness, but you have to look long term, and therein the problem becomes hideously complex. Just doing drugs might be seem good in the short term, but I've got over 50 years of potential fun to have. Those have to be taken into account. 20 years of fun followed by death just ain't a good option.

And, of course, the hugely immense scale of human society makes things even worse, because your actions have influences on other people's actions, and their actions have influences on your happiness.

The Central Scrutinizer
2nd February 2004, 07:37 PM
I voted option #1, because it uses the word "hedonism", which implies sex!!!

Atlas
2nd February 2004, 09:50 PM
I think you give God too much credit for an atheist, Gestahl. You seem to think that religionists derive their 'base reason' from God. They have to live in their own skin just like you do.

We all have urges. We have to deal with them. Otherwise we go insane. This yearning 'to know' is an urge that is part of the human condition.

Religionists deal with urges like fear of death and grief and alienation by postulating a loving God who has this great plan and through a form of mental dishonesty formulate their purpose. Hey, it gets them through the night. They're not troubled with your questions anyway.

I think they pay a heavy price. Once you know God gives your life purpose you are at the mercy of anyone who can tell you more about the mind of God and what you have to do to get right with Him.

I kinda agree with Paul. Humanity has it's own purpose. You are along for the ride. I also think the key is in the pursuit of happiness. Some people will try drugs. Some will help others. Some will mope and complain for attention. Everybody has their way.

If you feel happy or creative or that you are making a difference your purpose reveals itself to you. You know what you have to do. You deal with your urges within a structure that hopefully allows you to live with purpose.

Of course, you can lose your way at times. Jimmy Swaggart needed his hooker. He was either a scammer or was being driven insane by the strait jacket he couldn't live without.

The thing is, if you don't know why you should lead a good life, you can still decide to go ahead and live honorably, in pursuit of happiness, without harming others to see if the lifestyle is of value like so many believe. Generally, it keeps you out of jail and now with Viagra and/or Vodka you can sink into a life of hedonism at any age.

Keep an open mind and let your purpose reveal itself. Stay alert and don't miss it. It's great to be alive and living here where you can get it together rather than in a Taliban controlled environment that would 'help' a confused person like you.

By the way, if you do figure it out - let me know.

Ladewig
2nd February 2004, 10:22 PM
Why do you classify these choices as mutually exclusive? I consider the first three as part of my motivations, although not in equal proportions. I voted for #2.

Dorian Gray
3rd February 2004, 12:13 AM
Your poll is lacking both the option to check more than one option (I do nice things for people for a variety of reasons) and a planet X option (but you're new, so that's forgiven ). And a Planet Funk option as well.

Your thread question is so loaded. I can hear the arguments in the background, the little wheels preparing you to state that all that is good comes from God and all that is evil comes from Satan, and since atheists have no truck with God, they are necessarily evil, and even their good acts have an evil motive.

Correct me if I am wrong. It just seems that way. I've seen it before.

Zero
3rd February 2004, 12:54 AM
You know what makes us want to be good? Empathy and biological imperative. Mostly biology, because antisocial folks who couldn't handle the ethics at all got bred out a long time ago. A little ruthlessness can be effective, but complete scumbags very often get removed from the genepool. :D

Iconoclast
3rd February 2004, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by Atlas
I think you give God too much....
Just wanted to say I thought that was an excellent first post Atlas, but what else would we expect from a demigod?

pgwenthold
3rd February 2004, 06:21 AM
I figure, that when you get right down to it, the only reason we are here is for others. Personally, I'm not all that concerned about myself, and my existence is not a big deal. I'm alive, I'm dead, it wouldn't matter to me. Life has good aspects, but sometimes it is hard, and it would be easier if I weren't alive. Since I would be dead, I can't say I'd care.

OTOH, I know that things that happen to me affect others. Obviously my wife would be affected, as would my family and friends. For their sakes, I do what I do. And, as I think about it, the good things about life to which I referred above are also derived from relations with others. So in the end, they are what keep me going.

So I could be dead and not bother, or I could be alive. Although I don't care, others do. Since I am currently alive, and people care that I am, then I might as well make the best of it, for their sakes. Presumably, they will do the same for me.

It may sound like a sad life, to be dependent on the love of others, but I don't think it is. If it were true that no one loved you or cared, then yes, I think you would be just as well dead. Of course, the problem is that I don't really think there is anyone who is not loved by someone. Some may feel that way, and that's when you get suicide attempts, but those people are wrong. There is someone out there who cares. That is why it is important to let those people you care about know it.

When my brother attempted suicide, the thing that stopped him was not God, or a belief that he needed to do something for himself. It was the thought of his son, who he knew would be hurt by it. He realized that his son was what made life worth living. Despite all the other crap that was going on (and it was ugly), he loved his son and didn't want him to be hurt. That's the type of thing that keeps me going, too.

tamiO
3rd February 2004, 06:48 AM
I love being alive so much that I never want it to end!
(Maybe this is the want that imagines a heaven?)

I have my share of pain and troubles, but I love life. I am simply blown away by all the beauty in the world. There is so much to see and do! So much to think about!

It feels good when I do the "right thing." Especially when no one would have ever known if I did the selfish thing.

There are so many alive who suffer. They suffer so much - pain, hunger, cold, thirst. If nothing else, there is joy in relieving someone's suffering.

I find it sad when people are only doing the right thing because they are scared God will see them and throw them in a lake of fire.

Dymanic
3rd February 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Gestahl

I fear that my decision to follow the tenets of critical thinking and logical thinking have run afoul...It's not unusual for those new in atheism to be troubled by such doubts. Continue to not pray, and have faith that answers will come. Or not. Or that the questions will turn out to be meaningless anyway. Well, whatever, hang in there.

Originally posted by Zero

You know what makes us want to be good? Empathy and biological imperative. Mostly biology, because antisocial folks who couldn't handle the ethics at all got bred out a long time ago. A little ruthlessness can be effective, but complete scumbags very often get removed from the genepool.

Maybe it's just that blatant ruthlessness, to be an effective strategy, needs to be combined with a sufficient amount of deviousness and subtlety (like in Shogun).

Actually, though, I think there is something more to it. As tamiO has beautifully expressed, there is beauty in the world, there is joy in relieving another's suffering, there is satisfaction in doing the right thing, rather than the selfish thing -- to a degree that seems to seriously strain the explanitory power of biological imperative under game theory, kin altruism, and the like.

Gestahl
3rd February 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by UserGoogol
I've been thinking personal happiness, but you have to look long term, and therein the problem becomes hideously complex. Just doing drugs might be seem good in the short term, but I've got over 50 years of potential fun to have. Those have to be taken into account. 20 years of fun followed by death just ain't a good option.

And, of course, the hugely immense scale of human society makes things even worse, because your actions have influences on other people's actions, and their actions have influences on your happiness.

I was just using drugs as an example of how such a goal can be accomplished in the extreme.

Monketey Ghost
3rd February 2004, 08:27 AM
I do what seems best for myself, and more broadly, those I love.
I'll say biological imperative. It's pretty a good reason.

max
3rd February 2004, 09:01 AM
I think #1 but I also think that comes from upbringing/breeding.
I was religious many years ago but became aware that it was all man written but that there were some good points like the ten commandments. If everyone lived to those rules it would be a friendly planet to live on.
I also believe that we did evolve but at the point where we became aware of a conscience, a spirit like being took over our bodies. When we die I believe we will see what we have or not done wrong/right according to the universe/spirits. we will either wish to return to learn more or stay in the spirit world.
Many people mock my beliefs but none of us know what the system is. A goldfish only knows about the glass bowl he swims around in, it's not aware of even the garden never mind the rest of the world. And that's what we are mere goldfish in a bowl:D

Upchurch
3rd February 2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Gestahl

If that is the primary cause, then I am a slave to the biological imperative.A slave to it? I wouldn't say that. You don't have to follow your social or biological norms. You could choose to go around and harm or kill people despite any impulse you have not to. Having the drive to do something does not necessarily override your free will or self-control.

Case in point, over in politics there was a discussion about straight men who act in gay porn. Or, the reverse situation, when gay men force themselves to lead straight lives (get married, have kids, etc.). They have a drive to do one thing and choose to do another.

Dymanic
3rd February 2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by No Answers


I do what seems best for myself, and more broadly, those I love.Right. Which sometimes includes making sacrifices for the good of the community, or even society at large; forgoing some benefit for myself -- or even my family -- in the interest of being a good neighbor, a good citizen, a good person.

...Which, in the long run, turns out to be selfish thing to do after all, once those benefits are factored in.

...Except that doesn't seem strong enough to explain why people will dedicate their lives to thankless causes, send their sons to die in foreign wars, or place themselves at great personal risk to come to the aid of complete strangers.

If there's one thing humans enjoy as much as hurting one another, it's helping one another.

hammegk
3rd February 2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Why is it that everyone who is searching for a purpose for humanity doesn't seem to think that humanity can make up its own purpose?



Of course one could. Whose "purpose" do you adhere to, or conversely how many besides you have faith that your choice of "purpose" is correct? And if not yours, whose?




Reasons for each individuals' morality & ethics? Culture, relatives, peers, teachers, media. As an atheist & intellectual you then logically pick apart the areas you personally disagee with and either ignore them or preach your ideas looking for converts to your faith. Can you say "egotist"?

Over time, your interplay with your society, and its' relations to other societies, determine who makes the history books: positively, negatively, or not at all.

mummymonkey
3rd February 2004, 09:41 AM
Everything I do is either to improve the quality of life and prospects of my family (work hard, get a raise, dig the garden, wallpaper the kids bedroom, hoover the carpets, wash the car) or because I take pleasure in it (drink beer, watch a good film, go to the football). Often it is both (read books with kids, take kids bowling, meal out with wife).
Such a conformist lifestyle has been derided by right-on authors and sitcom writers for years but I don't mind. I kind of like it this way.
I voted option 3 (biological imperative) in the absence of check boxes.

Zero
3rd February 2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Dymanic



Maybe it's just that blatant ruthlessness, to be an effective strategy, needs to be combined with a sufficient amount of deviousness and subtlety (like in Shogun).

Actually, though, I think there is something more to it. As tamiO has beautifully expressed, there is beauty in the world, there is joy in relieving another's suffering, there is satisfaction in doing the right thing, rather than the selfish thing -- to a degree that seems to seriously strain the explanitory power of biological imperative under game theory, kin altruism, and the like. Not really. Group cooperation is more profitable than individual action, as game theory predicts. Those groups of animals that can work together succeed reproductively to a greater degree than individuals. Those genes that carry an inclination for self-sacrifice and altruism survive and thrive moreso than pure self-interest.

Keneke
3rd February 2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Zero
Not really. Group cooperation is more profitable than individual action, as game theory predicts. Those groups of animals that can work together succeed reproductively to a greater degree than individuals. Those genes that carry an inclination for self-sacrifice and altruism survive and thrive moreso than pure self-interest.

Exactly. Everything we do can be traced to biology. Altruism, superstition, even belief in God...they're all semi-vestigial evolutionary leftovers for reproductive success.

And as far as comparing religion to biology (as a mindset we are addicted to). Hm, perhaps. However, we can definitely shed religion and move forward, but can we shed biology? Can we overcome our need to reproduce, therefore enlightening ourselves out of existence? :D For the survival of our species, I'd say keeping the animal in us is good for the time being, if only for the sole purpose of keeping the most enlightened race alive.

Dymanic
3rd February 2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Zero

Those groups of animals that can work together succeed reproductively to a greater degree than individuals. Those genes that carry an inclination for self-sacrifice and altruism survive and thrive moreso than pure self-interest.
Well, a certain amount of altruism is in the self-interest of an organism if that organism is one which gains a significant advantage by membership in a group. But according to selfish gene theory, the interest of the group can never rise above the interest of the individual, and the ideal strategy is one in which the individual's investment in the group interest produces the most favorable ratio of cost to return (i.e., the bare minimum, usually).

It is the observation that humans consistently go far beyond that minimum that gets me pondering the notion that there is some fundamental logical basis for (say) compassion, one which requires a threshold of cognitive ability to discover, but which might be discovered by any sufficiently capable being.

jimmygun
4th February 2004, 02:22 PM
All of my actions have one of three consequences, good, bad, or neutral. If an action delivers a good consequence then I am pleased and that is what I do. If it has a bad consequence then I pull in the reins. If it has neutral consequences then I flow with it.

epepke
5th February 2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Gestahl
Hi All,

A newly burgeoning bright/skeptic/whichever. After several years of long, personal thinking and discussion with others, I have rejected my previous religious affiliations. My question and line of reasoning is this for us atheists...

1) If there is no God then that removes the need for a purpose of humanities existance... we just are.

This I have no problem with, though since this is the premise, you may take issue with it.

2) If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions? Why do anything?

This may just be the result of my tearing down my whole reality and building it up again, or mild depression, or something else, but I see no reasons beyond the few listed below to drive individual action:

It's a bit like recovering from alcoholism or drug abuse. For a while, you're going to feel like something vital is missing. So, you're going to search for things that do the same thing as the booze and drugs did.

After a while, you'll realize that you're pretty much the same person that you were before, possibly a bit more honest, but morally and ethically pretty much the same. You still will avoid doing things that feel wrong and do things that feel right to about the same extent, and your feelings will be about as accurate or inaccurate as they were before.

chance
5th February 2004, 01:42 PM
IMO Upchurch has a good slant on it You don't have to follow your social or biological norms. You could choose to go around <snip> My take on it is that we are a slave to the biological imperative in almost every aspect of our lives, BUT when given the time to reason the consequences of cause and effect, we can override (sometimes) our instincts. This ability to reason has been the hallmark of human evolution.

billydkid
5th February 2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Gestahl
Hi All,

A newly burgeoning bright/skeptic/whichever. After several years of long, personal thinking and discussion with others, I have rejected my previous religious affiliations. My question and line of reasoning is this for us atheists...

1) If there is no God then that removes the need for a purpose of humanities existance... we just are.

This I have no problem with, though since this is the premise, you may take issue with it.

2) If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions? Why do anything?

This may just be the result of my tearing down my whole reality and building it up again, or mild depression, or something else, but I see no reasons beyond the few listed below to drive individual action:

1) Personal happiness

Useless really, since this is transient and ill-defined, and easily attributable to my own brain chemistry. This is not a worthy goal, plenty of drugs can do this for me.

2) Perpetuation of one's self/species

Useless again. The perpetuation of the species does nothing for me as I won't be around for it, and I am debating the usefulness of it anyway. Perpetuating myself is worthless unless I can find a good reason for my continued existence...

Any other reason can be I think reduced to #1: you like it and it makes you happy. Hedonism is a very shallow and hollow existence, simply because boredom sets in. From whence can one derive ethics, morals, or any other system for giving purpose for action or continued existence simply from existence? Why continue to do anything, other than the strong biological imperative to remain alive, and thus reproduce? I fear that my decision to follow the tenets of critical thinking and logical thinking have run afoul...

Well, we atheist derive our base reasons from exactly the same place as every other person - this in as much as the only source that even the most devout believer has is other men and themselves. Unless, of course, God is speaking to you personally. Whenever anyone talks about believing in God I have to ask where they got their notion of God from. Whereelse, unless you have divine connections, except from the words of other men. I guess I'm just not prepared to take their word for it. "You say there is a God and this is his nature? Heck, I guess it must be true. I guess I'll adopt your belief system which you adopted from somebody else and they adopted from someone before them. Never mind that there is no rational basis for choosing to believe it."

fishbob
6th February 2004, 01:15 AM
If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions? Why do anything? There is a disconnect between sentence 1 and sentence 2.

The fact is, we are here. Why we are here is an interesting discussion to have, but in the long run, it makes absolutely no difference.

The fact still is, we are here. We get hungry, we get cold, we get tired, we get sick and some of us recover, we have good days and bad days. Why do anything? How about to get a bite to eat, warm up a little, have a nap, try to recover, enjoy the good days and live through the bad days. We do these things regardless of why we are here. Why is irrelevant.

Prospero
8th February 2004, 01:38 PM
Someone obviously hasn't been reading his Sartre.

iain
9th February 2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Mercutio
Do you really think most people actually have reasons for what they do? I think a case can be made for the notion that we do what we do for essentially random reasons, or no reason at all, and justify our actions after the fact in terms of whatever is handy.

For such times when I do think about reasons that heavy, my reasoning is...hey, I love my kids. I expect I will love my grandkids. I would just as soon they live in the best world I can possibly help make for them. There are other people I care about too--family and friends, and some people here I have never even met. I would kind of prefer the world was a nice place for them, too. Is this rational? I really don't care. I pretty much agree with Mercutio here. There is increasing evidence that a lot of what we think of as making reasoned, conscious decisions are actually us doing things unconsciously and then justifying it after the fact. I don't know about "random reasons, or no reasons at all".

What I think we can be pretty sure of is that most people, both now and throughout history, just get on and live their lives. The idea that everything somehow falls apart if there isn't some rational external agent (whether sentient or other) guiding your actions doesn't work because most people just don't think about that sort of thing most of the time, if ever.

My own take on these sorts of questions is that philosophers have spent the last few hundred years (at least) not coming up with good answers because they have been asking the wrong questions. They've started off assuming that human motivation, body/soul duality, ethics etc. are nice neat things for which there is a clean rational answer somewhere, if only we can find it. Maybe Plato has a lot to answer for with platonic ideals : good for mathematics, but not so great for anything else.

Plato/Socrates also had it wrong, I think, in suggesting that the unexamined life is not worth living. How arrogant can you get?

RandFan,Jr.
9th February 2004, 03:44 PM
Interesting thread with the potential to open a large can of worms.

If we just are, from whence do we derive the reason for our actions?If we accept evolution, natural selection and the combined research of behaviorists and psychologists since Freud then we must assume that human behavior is a combination of genetics and environment and that we act in a way that will best ensure the propagation of our species.

Why do anything? I understand the question but I think it is the wrong question to ask. It is an emotional response with an assumption that we are only motivated by conscious reasoning. I would submit that this is not the case and is not supported by the evidence. Please note the emphasis on "only". This is not to say that humans are not at all motivated by conscious reasoning.

A better question would be "why do we do anything?" When it comes to humans that is not such a simple question to answer. Humans have drives that compel us to survive, to live in a community (man is a social animal), and to reproduce. These needs are often in conflict and I would submit that there is no purely altruistic behavior including sacrificing ones own life for another.

See
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://web.utk.edu/~gwynne/maslow.HTM)
A Brief Survey of Operant Behavior (http://www.bfskinner.org/Operant.asp)
The Skeptics Dictionary: Free Will (http://skepdic.com/freewill.html)


Originally posted by Keneke
Exactly. Everything we do can be traced to biology. Altruism, superstition, even belief in God...they're all semi-vestigial evolutionary leftovers for reproductive success.

And as far as comparing religion to biology (as a mindset we are addicted to). Hm, perhaps. However, we can definitely shed religion and move forward, but can we shed biology? Can we overcome our need to reproduce, therefore enlightening ourselves out of existence? :D For the survival of our species, I'd say keeping the animal in us is good for the time being, if only for the sole purpose of keeping the most enlightened race alive. Agreed.

RandFan,Jr.
9th February 2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Upchurch
A slave to it? I wouldn't say that. You don't have to follow your social or biological norms. You could choose to go around and harm or kill people despite any impulse you have not to. Having the drive to do something does not necessarily override your free will or self-control.

Case in point, over in politics there was a discussion about straight men who act in gay porn. Or, the reverse situation, when gay men force themselves to lead straight lives (get married, have kids, etc.). They have a drive to do one thing and choose to do another. If Maslow is correct then I would say that they have various "needs" and/or "drives" including "saftey needs" and others that are met by doing something counter to one specific need.

It would be interesting if straight men forced themselves to work in gay porn for free.

rachaella
9th February 2004, 04:08 PM
I think the question being asked is a very complicated ones and the answers to choose from (especially when only one can be chosen) are far too simplistic. Everybody makes decisions based on a variety of things. For instance, I plan on becoming a sex therapist. I choose this because:
a.) I want to help people. I think evolution is at least a partial factor in this desire.
b.) I feel comfortable talking frankly, medically, practically, and philosophically about sex. It's something I enjoy doing. This could be considered hedonistic.
c.) I want to earn money to support my future spouse and child(ren). This may be considered altruistic and could be considered biology or fit under the help others answer.
d.) I want to live comfortably and own some nice things, and having a profitable private practice would help in this. Again, perhaps hedonistic.
e.) I hope to help women who were raped by donating some of my time for to offer therapy services. Again, altruistic

I don't think there is an ultimate reason for most actions except for, in general, quite basic ones, like eating and sleeping. Although, even with eating, there is the aspect of choices of what to eat and choosing healthfully could be as a result of looking out for one's own welfare or one's family, one could make healthy choices to be alive and healthy to stick around to support loved ones. But most likely, there is some combination of many different decision making factors involved for everyone, atheist and religious alike.