The Hellbounds Club

[Checkmite]

Has anyone here been Officially Condemned? Certainly, everywhere you can find declarations that all non-Baptists (etc) are going to Hell. I'm not talking about those; nor am I speaking of impersonal message board or chatroom discussions. I'm talking about the real, face-to-face kind where the person actually looks you in the eyes and informs you that you are going to burn forever because of reason "X".

It happened to me today, for the first time.

I was at the mall with a friend, and we happened upon another friend who was there with her little brother, and we all decided to "chill" together; played a few games in the arcade, and eventually sat down in the food court for a steak sub or what have you. Being early in the evening and a Monday, the mall was rather not-busy, so we were taking it easy. We started talking about religious beliefs, and we were all something different - I being a deist, of course; the friend I came to the mall with was Baha'i; the other friend is atheist and her little brother "wasn't really anything", so I'll call him agnostic. We were chatting peacefully when somebody three tables away got up and rebuked us for being so openly blasphemous near his children. "My children are raised to love the Lord," he exclaimed.

My Baha'i friend offered to speak more quietly, but I guess this Falwell-wannabe was in full tilt, as that wasn't enough. He said we were all lost in sin and endangering the soul of "the child" (that would be our female friend's brother) by not setting an example in going to church and stuff.

At this point, I broke in with the point that I do go to a Unitarian-Universalist church. That usually shuts most people up because they don't know what a UU church is and "any church is a good church"; but this person apparently did know. He declared that UU isn't a real church and that it "mocks God" by allowing anyone of any belief to join and that we "allow pagans, homosexuals, atheists and idolaters" to take part in an act specifically denied them by God ("worship", presumably, although a UU service can't fairly be called worship by any means). Various other niceties included the accusation that we "offer a nonexistent alternative to salvation through our Lord Jesus", that we're the real "First Church of Satan" (good one), that we're secular humanists in disguise to lure the faithful, and that, necessarily, we were all condemned to suffer eternal burning torture at the hands of the Enemy and his demons. He also addressed his kids a couple of times while referring to us as "those people". We got up and left, which naturally was an example of how the power of the Lord triumphs over Satan. I'm sure his children were taught this valuable lesson.

Looking back at all this, it seems surreal, like a movie. Were I to write a satirical piece, I would've penned the Angry Fundamentalist character in a manner identical to the way this guy acted...almost word-for-word. It was incredible, it was offensive, it was uncivil, and it scared the hell out of our friend's younger brother. People like this need to have the Hell beat out of them. But nobody ever does it because "they love the Lord, so they are our friends". Any act is excusable.

I know there must be people here who've endured similar roastings. Let this be your OWGTT (Official Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth Thread). Let's all get together and plan our glorious days in the regions below.

[Yahweh]

I have had an exact scenario between myself and my friends play out like that...

Except for a minor detail: When I'm accosted for being such a heathen damned for eternity, I will respond in one of two ways:

1. Start an argument about how this guy would make Jesus so proud for being a homophobic intolerant hateful little prick (really, if Jesus actually came back, would he want to see that his name is associated with the Frightfully-Fundie concept of True Christian™). I am most unkind.

or

2. I have a running joke, I've invented a fictional religion, and I like to argue that my religious beliefs are true and his are inspired by ignorance. Nothing beats a Faith vs. Faith argument! (I use option #2 when I'm feeling silly.)


I could very easily walk away... yep... I could... *evil laughter*

[Jas]

My grandpere told me i was going to hell when I was about eleven (a l'Enfer!). I think it was because I had cut my hair or something.

Of course, he also thinks that God put 'monkey' bones in the earth as a joke on scientists (oh Dieu, what a prankster you are!). And he thinks my lip rings are braces. We let him think that, he's old, and it would be too hard to explain it to him.

He's from Quebec, which would explain a lot of this.

[Phil]

I've not been condemned so much as I have folks praying for my eternal soul. But as the song goes, I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. And that will never change, because the sinners are just so much fun.

At any rate, if I get to hell first, I'll save a good fiery pit for you.

[c4ts]

Happens all the time whenever I ask a question a religious person can't answer. Either that or I cause them to think. It's like a sort of reactionary defense. I haven't actually done anything wrong, but I've caused them to look at their beliefs a way they don't like and therefore I AM A BIG MEAN ATHEIST CAUSING PERSONAL HARM! BLUH!

[Dorian Gray]

People have told me to go to Hell. Does that count?

Also, someone has told me that 'God will get you for that'. I can't count how many nights sleep I have lost over that. (Because how can you count to zero?)

I like the idea of faith vs faith. It'd be good for a few chuckles.

[El Greco]

One of the things I'm thankful for, is that just an angry look from me readily deters any unpleasant strangers from talking to me. They think that I am a member of the Mafia or something (yes, I've been told that).

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Nothing beats a Faith vs. Faith argument!

I'm sure it happens for real all the time.

What happens when a Jehovah's Witness knocks on the door of a Mormon or vice versa?

[Skeptic Warrior]

I like the faith vs. faith method myself. How can you tell a guy his going to hell when he already believes his in hell? All he's waiting for is the great space goddess to come and pick him up with the flaming chariot of Thor to take him to the Playboy Mansion in the sky to spend enternity.

I usually only make it to the space goddess part when they decide to leave me alone. :D

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray

... how can you count to zero?


Count backwards from all eternity and stop when you reach zero. Maybe the Big Eye in the Sky is doing that right now.

[exarch]

Originally posted by Phil
At any rate, if I get to hell first, I'll save a good fiery pit for you.Hey, you will join me on the barbecue we are planning to have there, right?

Bring along anything you like for the hell-party, and entertainment for the ride down in the handbasket (I've been told there will be no movie).

[shemp]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


I'm sure it happens for real all the time.

What happens when a Jehovah's Witness knocks on the door of a Mormon or vice versa?

They are mutually annihilated.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I guess we just don't have those sorts of people here in Eastern Massachusetts. Of course, I can't remember the last time I was involved in a religious conversation at the mall.

~~ Paul

[SkepticScott]

I was told that I was going to hell, but not personally. It was at the Godless Americans March On Washington and believers were telling us we were damned en masse. I just flashed my "Get Out Of Hell Free" card at them (www.goohf.com). It's probably as good a response as Yahweh's faith vs. faith fight. :)

[LizardPeople]

http://users.adelphia.net/~yumakenneys/churchsign.jpg

[DVFinn]

I get that all the time, but I'm kind of confrontational. When I get an angry type christian my favorite way of handling it is to be extremely nice and friendly and smile a lot while talking to them, kind of like you would with a small child. I ask questions such as why do they believe such and such, what makes you think that, etc. They usually don't know how to react and get completely frustrated and confused. I always wish them a lovely day when they storm off.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

What happens when a Jehovah's Witness knocks on the door of a Mormon or vice versa?

Schadenfreude.

[rustypouch]

But what happens when a tacoist confronts a cheeseburgerist?

I hate those dirty cheeseburgerists...

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Phil
I've not been condemned so much as I have folks praying for my eternal soul. But as the song goes, I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. And that will never change, because the sinners are just so much fun.

At any rate, if I get to hell first, I'll save a good fiery pit for you. This has been my experience too...and depending on who is doing the praying for me, I will either be flattered or incensed.

But I have had the opposite problem once! Someone found out that although I am an atheist, I used to be a born-again christian. He informed me that it is a one-way trip--once I have accepted the lord JC as my personal savior, I am going to heaven and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I had to argue for my right to go to hell by his beliefs!

(thinking back, perhaps I should have asked whether I would still go to heaven if I committed a murder after finding jesus...then just look at the guy funny...)

[Phil]

Originally posted by Mercutio
. . . But I have had the opposite problem once! Someone found out that although I am an atheist, I used to be a born-again christian. He informed me that it is a one-way trip--once I have accepted the lord JC as my personal savior, I am going to heaven and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I had to argue for my right to go to hell by his beliefs! . . .
:D :D :D That's just wonderfully ridiculous. Would make a good comic strip.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by rustypouch
But what happens when a tacoist confronts a cheeseburgerist?


Not mutually exclusive.

Two forms, same substance, right? Or is it similar substance? :D

Uh oh. I feel a holy war coming. :p

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Mercutio
But I have had the opposite problem once! Someone found out that although I am an atheist, I used to be a born-again christian. He informed me that it is a one-way trip--once I have accepted the lord JC as my personal savior, I am going to heaven and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I had to argue for my right to go to hell by his beliefs!


You were an Arminian heretic. Now you are atheist. Same difference, as far as going to Hell is concerned. :p

Wait, that's not right! Your accoster is a heretic and you're both going to Hell. Yeah, that's the ticket! :p :D

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Mercutio
But I have had the opposite problem once! Someone found out that although I am an atheist, I used to be a born-again christian. He informed me that it is a one-way trip--once I have accepted the lord JC as my personal savior, I am going to heaven and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I had to argue for my right to go to hell by his beliefs!

He got that completely wrong ...

You never truly accepted JC as your personal saviour. You see, once a born again - always a born again. Those who lose their faith were never true born agains in the first place.

[Bikewer]

I have been waiting in vain for about 40 years for my Official Notice of Excommunication, but so far no luck.

I guess the Catholics still think of me as "fallen away", or perhaps "non-practicing".

Our local Rationalist organization was offering "De-Baptisms" for a while....

[Charlie in Dayton]

Have I ever been "officially condemned"?...hmmmm...

Well, LPD/ICTPOD has kinda pretty well given up on saving any of our souls, especially those of us with the unmitigated temerity to disagree with him (like me, for an extended period of time)...

And I've been on The Bethke Blinding List©™® since its inception...

Do those count?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


He got that completely wrong ...

You never truly accepted JC as your personal saviour. You see, once a born again - always a born again. Those who lose their faith were never true born agains in the first place. I have heard that take on it...If they go there, I have fun with it. I look them in the eye and tell them that I guarantee that I was every bit as much a born-again back then as they are now...and that if they cannot handle the fear that they might turn out like me, that's their problem. I also volunteer to tell them all about the journey, and tell them (and I can look incredibly earnest) that I can guarantee I will convert them before they convert me.

They leave, then. Every time.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by rustypouch
But what happens when a tacoist confronts a cheeseburgerist?

I hate those dirty cheeseburgerists...

Ketchup and ground beef everywhere. Not a pretty sight.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth
He got that completely wrong ...

You never truly accepted JC as your personal saviour. You see, once a born again - always a born again. Those who lose their faith were never true born agains in the first place.
It doesnt matter...

There is a One True Religion™, it just turns out Christianity aint it. And all non-believers go to Hell. Oops :re:

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by rustypouch
But what happens when a tacoist confronts a cheeseburgerist?

I hate those dirty cheeseburgerists...
Cheeseburgerists are just Tacoists who are confused. Cheeseburgerists and Tacoists eat the same ground beef, Cheeseburgerists just press their meat into a disc.

Its not much more than the difference between Protestants and Catholics.

(I consider Cheeseburgerism a bastardization of Tacoism... but that just me...)

[fishbob]

My wife had a co-worker that was a fairly extreme fundy. When her fundy husband was sick, my wife worked extra shifts to cover for her, we did a little baby sitting for her kids, and generally tried to help out.

Her comment to my wife later was something like: You are a nice person. Too bad you haven't been saved. It is such a shame that you are going to burn in hell.

[Bottle or the Gun]

Live it, believe it!

So You've Decided To Be Evil (http://evil-guide.tripod.com/)

[Checkmite]

I don't want to be evil. If I'm evil, I won't be able to hear people like the woman fishbob refers to tell me that "It's a shame you're going to burn in hell". From what I gather, there'll be plenty of kind, caring, generous, virtuous, charitable, moral, and loving people in Hell, and those are the kinds of people I want to suffer eternally with.

Besides, all evil people do all day is laugh loudly and wickedly, discuss lamebrain ad hoc plans painfully mislabeled as "genius", and get thwarted by James Bond.

[Kopji]

Humm, only as a believer.

I have a lovingly saved official rejection letter from the organizer of a large interfaith activity, sending registration money back and telling me we were not welcome because we sounded too much like Mormons. :hit:

Another time, from a member of my own church... I was politely but firmly told I should fear to appear before God, when I questioned the rationality of a belief that Jesus would someday descend in bodily form over a suburb of Kansas City.

-shrug-

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


He got that completely wrong ...

You never truly accepted JC as your personal saviour. You see, once a born again - always a born again. Those who lose their faith were never true born agains in the first place.

The opposite view is the Arminian heresy, and yours is the Calvinist heresy.

It's all very simple, there are no real Christians. They are all heretics and going to Hell. :p

By the way, Armenia was the first country to go officially Christian and there is an Armenian Orthodox Church that is neither in the Catholic nor Eastern Orthodox tradition.

What happens when a member of this church goes to a revival meeting and gets born again?

An Armenian Arminian? :D

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Kopji
Humm, only as a believer.

I have a lovingly saved official rejection letter from the organizer of a large interfaith activity, sending registration money back and telling me we were not welcome because we sounded too much like Mormons.

Another time, from a member of my own church... I was politely but firmly told I should fear to appear before God, when I questioned the rationality of a belief that Jesus would someday descend in bodily form over a suburb of Kansas City.


OK Mister or Miz sounds too much like a Mormon. You are by your own admission a member of a church. Which one?

A church that's noticeably Mormonesque in some way? Reserving judgement about how much is too much, of course.

Is the "interfaith" outfit one that includes Roman Catholics and Jews as some of them do? Or one of those across some denominational lines revivalist Protestant things.

I'm genuinely curious, not being rhetorical.

I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Kansas City business is someone's personal idiosyncrasy, not the doctrine of a sect.

Which suburb of Kansas City? Did your co-religionist have any particular line of reasoning? If so, I'd be interested to know it for amusement purposes.

Why Kansas City? Why not Kansas City?

Why Rome? Why Jerusalem? Why anywhere? ;)

[Kopji]

Abdul Alhazred
Hello,

OK Mister or Miz sounds too much like a Mormon. You are by your own admission a member of a church. Which one?

What am I?... Taoist? Atheist? Naturalist? Unbeliever? Brite? I dunno, I see no need for labels and choose to reject them.

Was raised RLDS, a tiny sect of Mormonism based in Missouri instead of Utah. Not a convert, which would be something else.

Apoligies, sarcasm conveys poorly in letters.


A church that's noticeably Mormonesque in some way? Reserving judgement about how much is too much, of course.

Hummm... Enough judgement to cause many friends and family pain and sorrow at my departure. How much is enough?

Maybe I'm a fanatic in a weird sense, to be true to my own journey?

Is the "interfaith" outfit one that includes Roman Catholics and Jews as some of them do? Or one of those across some denominational lines revivalist Protestant things.

Presented as the former, obviously the latter.

I'm genuinely curious, not being rhetorical.

Sorry for the delay in responding. This is a big site and I sometimes lose my way around.

I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Kansas City business is someone's personal idiosyncrasy, not the doctrine of a sect.
No, if you talk to any Mormon long enough, will find this belief somewhere. Independence MO is the 'Centerplace', place of the 'New Jerusalem' where Jesus will reappear in the temple etc etc. 10 million people?

Which suburb of Kansas City? Did your co-religionist have any particular line of reasoning? If so, I'd be interested to know it for amusement purposes.

Why Kansas City? Why not Kansas City?

-shrug- 'Because God said so to Joseph Smith' As true as any faith's answer to anything isn't it?

Why Rome? Why Jerusalem? Why anywhere?

Maybe it is useful to have a focal point. To simply state that all ground is holy ground will hardly draw a crowd.

I think that one of the things Mohamed was credited with doing was changing prayer from facing Jerusalem, to facing Mecca.
Religion does not ever offer anything really new (that would be heresy), so the ancient must must be re-created with fresh metaphors.

Just a thought, I could be wrong. Maybe people just get bored.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Mercutio
This has been my experience too...and depending on who is doing the praying for me, I will either be flattered or incensed.

But I have had the opposite problem once! Someone found out that although I am an atheist, I used to be a born-again christian. He informed me that it is a one-way trip--once I have accepted the lord JC as my personal savior, I am going to heaven and it doesn't matter what I do or say. I had to argue for my right to go to hell by his beliefs!

(thinking back, perhaps I should have asked whether I would still go to heaven if I committed a murder after finding jesus...then just look at the guy funny...)

Mercutio, you missed a prime opportunity to REALLY mess with the guy.

See, I would have started relentlessly hitting on him. After all, homosexuality is worse than murder to a lot of fundies.



As for being officially condemned, well, I've been ex-communicated, as I've said before. Since that means the church decided I don't actually have a soul, I guess I get off easy, since I have nothing to be tormented eternally. (This is why, if you're going to mess with the church, you need to do it BIG!

[T'ai Chi]

When I started grad school I tried to start a t'ai chi ch'uan club on campus. I put up flyers on my office door with a sign-up sheet. These flyers had a picture of the yin-yang symbol (called t'ai chi) on them, as well as two outlines of a famous t'ai chi ch'uan practicioner in some postures.

A fellow student who, later I found out, is an extremely literal Christian, comes over and asks me what t'ai chi is. OK, that is a reasonable question. :)

I explain to him that it is a Chinese martial art, exercise, and meditation which can be based on the theory of yin and yang (but one doesn't have to look at it in this light at all), and is typically done slowly, but also done quickly, for example, for self defense purposes. It has benefits of improved balance, precise alignment, weight bearing activity, relaxation, and cons of probably not cardiovascular exercise, not immediate self defense skills, not much sparring, and difficult to find a good instructor (there are more benefits and cons that I am probably leaving out). I wasn't in salesman mode, but rather I presented a very fair view of what it is. Afterall, I didn't need him to sign up as I already had about 5 or so signatures at the time, and you only needed 10 to get your club proposed. I was happy that I had that many signatures; afterall, my office was sandwiched between the statistics dept and the math dept.... not exactly the hang out spot on campus.

Anyway, I then demonstrated a few basic postures and applications of these postures for him.

He then, very suprisingly and without warning, proceeded to tell me how the yin-yang symbol is the root of evil, and Jesus is the only true way! He said something about the armor of God being all the protection one needs.

I asked him what Jesus had to do with anything in this case since we were talking about a martial art, not a religion, told him that I was honestly a bit confused by his remark, and said that if he wanted to, he is welcome to come and watch the club in action and participate, if the club gets enough members to get going that is.

I also mentioned that Jesus' teachings at least, from what I know, don't seem to contradict anything in t'ai chi ch'uan or any martial art that I am aware of. Moreover, heh, didn't God/Jesus create t'ai chi ch'uan in the first place!!? ;) (I didn't ask that though)

For fun, I should have asked him if he'd be interested in putting his armor of God up against some evil t'ai chi ch'uan punches/kicks. ;)

Every month or so I'd get a new very small green Bible slid under my door from you-know-who. Since I actually don't mind the Bible and don't feel insulted by them, I thanked him for the first one (he denied sending it, even though I saw him placing exactly the same type of Bible in the computer lab). I was only insulted by him thinking I threw them away when he gave them to me.

He'd also ask me 'why do you read that stuff?' whenever he'd see me read JREF commentary and CSICOP magazines/articles that I'd bring or print out and read. He didn't notice at all until he saw I had articles on religion. :) I'd tell him the same thing each time, that I find it interesting, entertaining, and it works my brain, like the statistics and mathematics we were studying in grad school. What he wasn't aware of, or if he was he actively chose to deny it, is that I think the exact same way about articles on religion, and also printed out a lot of these to read.

[RabbiSatan]

I'm sad to hear that Josh :( How's your friend's younger brother doing? I just loathe to see children intimidated...

I've never had anyone condemn me to eternal roastings of hellfire as of yet - Since I've never really been outside of Asia that much.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Kopji


I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Kansas City business is someone's personal idiosyncrasy, not the doctrine of a sect.

No, if you talk to any Mormon long enough, will find this belief somewhere. Independence MO is the 'Centerplace', place of the 'New Jerusalem' where Jesus will reappear in the temple etc etc. 10 million people?


I have unthinkingly unleashed a world of hurt. I'm sorry. I never realized. It seems that there is more hideous insanity in the world than I ever realized.

Reorganinized Mormons? Are they more or less insane than the regular kind? At least Jews can rest easy that they don't claim Jerusalem like everyone else.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy

Mercutio, you missed a prime opportunity to REALLY mess with the guy.

See, I would have started relentlessly hitting on him. After all, homosexuality is worse than murder to a lot of fundies.
Sure, that would have worked, but I think my way might have scared him more. If I had hit on him, he would have seen the reason for my rejection of faith...I must obviously be a damaged unit. But by being as normal as possible (for me), I was as much like him as possible. I guaranteed him that if it could happen to me, it could happen to him. I'd rather he get that message without a possible excuse...


Oh, and if anyone reading this has saved a copy of Foodbunny's amazing story from her school days, it would be worth re-posting here.

[sorgoth]

Suprisingly, no, I haven't been officially condemned.

I'm a fairly convincing person, and I've converted my entire group of friends to Atheism. Heh, not only am I responsible for my own soul going to hell, but also for the souls of about 14 other people burning for eternity. Whoever tries to convert me to religion usually just ends up leaving.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by sorgoth
Suprisingly, no, I haven't been officially condemned.

What's the big deal about being "officially" condemned, anyway?

Be what you are, and don't worry about what some organization says.

Harking back to the original post, is it possible to be excommunicated from Unitarianism? Non-creedal only means no loyalty oath. An admirable policy, but one that leaves important questions unanswered.

The Unitarians have a statement of principles rather than a creed.The first and foremost is the inherent worth and dignity of every person.

What if a Unitarian minister rejects the notion of the inherent worth and dignity of every person? In favor of the more obvious idea that some folks are no damn good?

What then? :p

[Kopji]

Abdul Alhazred

I have unthinkingly unleashed a world of hurt. I'm sorry. I never realized. It seems that there is more hideous insanity in the world than I ever realized.

No offense taken at all. I am condemned to hell by at least three major religions but I’m not counting. My life is supposed to be a downward spiral now, but frankly things have never been better. Maybe there will be a hot crunchy surprise at the end after all…

My unbelief is not entirely due to a rational examination of Mormonism or its sometimes-crazy implications, but a realization that our shared humanity makes us more similar than faith ever could. I waited for several hours once in a large waiting room, waiting for the outcome of a loved one’s operation. Shared the room with many people, including a large extended family I finally decided was probably Catholic. Their grief was like mine, and the ritual and religious trappings seems suddenly unimportant. (I was obviously well on my way to hell.)


Reorganinized Mormons? Are they more or less insane than the regular kind? At least Jews can rest easy that they don't claim Jerusalem like everyone else.

RLDS since the 80’s has tended toward the more liberal side of Mormonism. Women have been part of the priesthood for a couple decades now. Now called ‘Community of Christ’ (the acronymn pronounced “Cock” apparently did not occur to anyone).