Red Cross counts holohoax deaths, get 300,000

[Saggy]

In the 80's the Red Cross had access to the Nazi camp documents captured by the Russians, the Nazi camp documents captured by the US/Brits, and their own records. Analyzing the data gives an estimate of total deaths in all the concentration camps on the order of 300,000. Since the eighties the Bad Arolson data, and the Red Cross estimates, have been closed to the public.

See a representative Red Cross document here ...

http://www.holohoax101.com/102/RedCross.jpg

And read about it here

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/english1013.html

and here ...

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=120

[MG1962]

What is so sad, those are numbers of people found after beliving to have been killed. Not those who were killed

Thanks for playing, please come again

[defaultdotxbe]

that document in the first link doesnt appear to be from the red cross

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Apparently that's just the number of deaths among the registered people (those used for labor) at these camps. The poor souls who were outright exterminated were never registered.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=95451

[MG1962]

Thats not correct. The organisation that produced the document is Arolsen

http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/homepage/index.html

The last time I saw this type of document was from the 70's and that was a list in the number of victims that turned out not have died in the camps

That list in the OP is an adjustment document. Note that it list year 1982 then year 1983 then the difference between the two

[carlitos]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?

[SpitfireIX]

What is so sad, those are numbers of people found after beliving to have been killed. Not those who were killed

Thanks for playing, please don't come again


Fixed that for you. :mad:

[MG1962]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?

That he only killed 6,300,000 in the camps and other means

[atecom]

So your evidence that the Holocust was a myth is that holocaust did happen?

[LostAngeles]

I'm wondering if 300,000 is below some "acceptable" number of deaths or something.

[TSR]

In the 80's the Red Cross had access to the Nazi camp documents captured by the Russians, the Nazi camp documents captured by the US/Brits, and their own records. Analyzing the data gives an estimate of total deaths in all the concentration camps on the order of 300,000. Since the eighties the Bad Arolson data, and the Red Cross estimates, have been closed to the public.

,
Evidence?
,

See a representative Red Cross document here ...

http://www.holohoax101.com/102/RedCross.jpg

,
Not a Red Cross document. Free hint: is there a cross of any colour anywhere on that document?
,

And read about it here

,
Read the *truth* about it here (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/international/red-cross/ftp.py?orgs/international/red-cross//300000-victims.response)


...the ICRC has never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war and has never certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party.

,
Seriously, Saggs: your lies about the Holocaust have been documented time after time. Do you really believe repeating them is going to convince people that your irrational hatred of Jews is somehow justified?
,

[Safe-Keeper]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?It's quite an improvement. They have gone from denying the Holocaust to admitting that 300 000 people (quite a large number) were killed. We're making progress:D.

Never mind that there's been some investigation of the Holocaust after 1945. I believe there's even a museum or two now:rolleyes:.

By the way, who the hell invented the term "Holohoax"? It "hoax" isn't even remotely close to "caust", and every time I hear the word, I think the thread is going to be about holograms. I know holocaust deniers aren't the brightest people in the world, but come on, you don't even need to come up with anything, you can use any of the existing soundbytes, like Holocost:confused:.

[Chaos]

I'm wondering if 300,000 is below some "acceptable" number of deaths or something.

It´s quite simple, actually. In the deranged minds of Nazi worshippers, any so-called flaw in the so-called "Holohoax" proves conclusively that the whole thing didn´t happen, that Jews are evil and that the Nazis were saints.

[dafydd]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?

They were Jews,so that will make Saggy happy.It's not really worth replying directly to our Hitler groupie.

[dafydd]

It's quite an improvement. They have gone from denying the Holocaust to admitting that 300 000 people (quite a large number) were killed. We're making progress:D.

Never mind that there's been some investigation of the Holocaust after 1945. I believe there's even a museum or two now:rolleyes:.

By the way, who the hell invented the term "Holohoax"? It "hoax" isn't even remotely close to "caust", and every time I hear the word, I think the thread is going to be about holograms. I know holocaust deniers aren't the brightest people in the world, but come on, you don't even need to come up with anything, you can use any of the existing soundbytes, like Holocost:confused:.

Yes the word Holohoax is a sad reflection of the mentality of Saggy and his ilk.

[DC]

So your evidence that the Holocaust was a myth is that the holocaust did happen?

perfect answer :)

[Duffy Moon]

So your evidence that the Holocust was a myth is that holocaust did happen?

*** Saggy's head explodes ***

[CptColumbo]

So, somewhere along the way a conspiracy of people thought that 300,000 murders of innocent people wasn't a horrible statistic?

Just speaking for myself, they needn't have bothered. I would have been horrified by 300,000.

[Saggy]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?

That is not the argument. No, that is 0, zero, Jews were killed in the camps for being Jews. That is they may have been executed for crimes in the camps, but no Jews were 'exterminated' for being Jews. The gas chambers are phantasmagoria. The plan to exterminate Jews is phantasmagoria. The six million killed is phantasmagoria. The holocaust is a hoax.

The 300,000 (approx.) figure is for the total deaths in the camps from all causes. The figure was given in 1977 by the director of the Red Cross, as was verified in the trial of Ernst Zundel by a Red Cross delegate, see ....

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/dsmrd/dsmrd10biedermann.html

"Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps."


Not a Red Cross document. Free hint: is there a cross of any colour anywhere on that document?

Correct. The document was prepared by the Special Registry Office of the German govt. using ITS (Red Cross) data.

[dafydd]

That is not the argument. No, that is 0, zero, Jews were killed in the camps for being Jews. That is they may have been executed for crimes in the camps, but no Jews were 'exterminated' for being Jews. The gas chambers are phantasmagoria. The plan to exterminate Jews is phantasmagoria. The six million killed is phantasmagoria. The holocaust is a hoax.

The 300,000 (approx.) figure is for the total deaths in the camps from all causes. The figure was given in 1977 by the director of the Red Cross, as was verified in the trial of Ernst Zundel by a Red Cross delegate, see ....

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/dsmrd/dsmrd10biedermann.html

"Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps."

Do you admire or loath the Nazis for killing ''only'' 300,000 Jews?

[excaza]

That is not the argument. No, that is 0, zero, Jews were killed in the camps for being Jews. That is they may have been executed for crimes in the camps, but no Jews were 'exterminated' for being Jews.

What crimes, exactly, would warrant the killing of 300,000 people (who just all happened to be Jewish), including whole families, in the course of ~6-7 years? And why, exactly, were they in the camps? I'm pretty sure Hitler wasn't running around advertising them as summer Jew fun camps.

The 300,000 (approx.) figure is for the total deaths in the camps from all causes. The figure was given in 1977 by the director of the Red Cross, as was verified in the trial of Ernst Zundel by a Red Cross delegate, see ....

:covereyes
For the love of....did you even READ the article you linked AND quoted!?

"Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps.

:boggled:

This is the most selective reading I've seen you do yet. Is this what the article looked like to you?

"Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps.

Honestly...

[TSR]

Not a Red Cross document. Free hint: is there a cross of any colour anywhere on that document?

Correct. The document was prepared by the Special Registry Office of the German govt. using ITS (Red Cross) data.

.
No, it was not, despite your attempts to distort what Uncle Ernie published. Funny how you continue to take crap spoon fed you by documented liars and then deliberately misread it -- by your own "logic" the fact that Ernst was unable to convince 12 of his peers that he honestly believed his lies completely verifies the normative understanding of these events.

Of course, Ernie failed *twice* to do so (making your lies twice as reprehensible,) and only avoided serving time by showing that publishing bald faced lies wasn't illegal under Canadian law.

And then, you choose to ignore the parts that show your lies to be just that -- even as you cite them (when you choose not to snip them altogether.)

According to an *actual* Red Cross document (one notes that you don't apologize for lying before) "...the ICRC has never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war and has never certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party."

Seriously, Saggs: your lies about the Holocaust have been documented time after time. Do you really believe repeating them is going to convince people that your irrational hatred of Jews is somehow justified?
.

[Saggy]

Looking at the report from the Zundel trial .....

"Biedermann confirmed that as of December 31, 1983, the total number of deaths registered with the Special Registry Office and various other registry offices was 373,468. (11-2515) This figure represented death certificates issued pursuant to received applications and was based, with respect to the Special Registry Office, on camp records kept by the Nazis during the war. (11-2516, 2517)

Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had either partial or no documentation. Therefore, if an application was made for a person who had allegedly died in one of these camps, the ITS would not have the records to justify a request to the Special Registry Office for a death certificate. (12-2647)"

Here's how I read it ...... apparently persons came to the ITS to receive documentation of the death of a family member who died in the camps, and the Special Registry Office was responsible for issuing these death certificates. The person making the application would then use the death certificate to obtain reparations money.

As we know from the Auschwtiz records, more Roman Catholics appear in the death book than Jews, so this raises the question, did the relatives of Roman Catholics also apply for death certificates?

Biederman spins the story as the figures only represent death certificates resulting from requests for death certificates, but I do not believe that, and I do believe that the figures represent the best estimates of the SRO based on the data that they had and that included the captured British, US, and Soviet camp documents. And I think the numbers included deaths inferred by the SRO given a prisoner who appears in the documents but who could not be found after the war.

Of course, the numbers are only as good as the data they are computed from, but we are not allowed to see that data, thanks to the holohoax establishment. My guess is that, given that the Germans were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.

[excaza]

Biederman spins the story as the figures only represent death certificates resulting from requests for death certificates, but I do not believe that, and I do believe that the figures represent the best estimates of the SRO based on the data that they had and that included the captured British, US, and Soviet camp documents. And I think the numbers included deaths inferred by the SRO given a prisoner who appears in the documents but who could not be found after the war.

Of course, the numbers are only as good as the data they are computed from, but we are not allowed to see that data, thanks to the holohoax establishment. My guess is that, given that the Germans were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.

So you believe, you think, and you guess. Ok :rolleyes:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Looking at the report from the Zundel trial .....

If you're going to use material from a trial where the defendant was convicted of being a nazi a-hole, maybe you should look at the prosecutions evidence ( the stuff that convinced the jury) rather than only what the defense brought up?

[Hans]

My guess is that, given that the Germans were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.
oh?

Gives us then, the precise casualty break down by sub unit of the 12th SS Panzer Division in the operations in Hungary from January-April 1945.........when you are unable to do that reflect on your statement above then think what happened to all the records? The Battle Journal? Hmmmmm

[CptColumbo]

If you're going to use material from a trial where the defendant was convicted of being a nazi a-hole, maybe you should look at the prosecutions evidence ( the stuff that convinced the jury) rather than only what the defense brought up?There was a "Kids in the Hall" skit where the judge would free anyone who pleaded "not guilty." He would just take their word for it and ignore all the evidence.

ETA Here it is:
WU95F01IJsc

[TSR]

Looking at the report from the Zundel trial .....

.
Is that the first one when he was found to be liar by a jury of his peers, or the second one when he was *also* found to be a liar by a jury of his peers?

Why do you keep pretending that your own "standards" regarding such lies don't apply when the liar supports your irrational hatred of Jews?
.

Here's how I read it

.
but your reading isn't supported by the actual facts, so why should anyone care?
.

Biederman spins the story as the figures only represent death certificates resulting from requests for death certificates, but I do not believe that, and I do believe that the figures represent the best estimates of the SRO based on the data that they had and that included the captured British, US, and Soviet camp documents.

.
Of course, reality does not support your "belief," any more than it supports your "belief" that the gas chamber in Dachau was a functional shower room.
.

Of course, the numbers are only as good as the data they are computed from, but we are not allowed to see that data, thanks to the holohoax establishment.

.
Do you have any, you know -- evidence to support this lie?
.

My guess is that, given that the Germans were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.

.
But then, you also guess that the "zoo" at Treblinka was for the benefit of non-existent tours of children -- where are the methodical records of any such tours taking place?

Or since you have such faith in Nazi recordkeeping, would you care to discuss the Jäger Report, and what those numbers mean to the implications of your OP? Especially since the einsatzgruppen never issued a statement explicitly stating that they never complied such statistics?
.

[dafydd]

Looking at the report from the Zundel trial .....

"Biedermann confirmed that as of December 31, 1983, the total number of deaths registered with the Special Registry Office and various other registry offices was 373,468. (11-2515) This figure represented death certificates issued pursuant to received applications and was based, with respect to the Special Registry Office, on camp records kept by the Nazis during the war. (11-2516, 2517)

Biedermann agreed that at an international conference held by the International Committee of the Camps in Vienna in 1977, the then director of the ITS, Albert de Cocatrix, gave a speech which indicated that as of December 31, 1976 a total of 357,190 names of persons who died in concentration camps had been registered at the Special Registry Office. Biedermann confirmed that these numbers actually came from the ITS. (12-2640 to 2646) He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had either partial or no documentation. Therefore, if an application was made for a person who had allegedly died in one of these camps, the ITS would not have the records to justify a request to the Special Registry Office for a death certificate. (12-2647)"

Here's how I read it ...... apparently persons came to the ITS to receive documentation of the death of a family member who died in the camps, and the Special Registry Office was responsible for issuing these death certificates. The person making the application would then use the death certificate to obtain reparations money.

As we know from the Auschwtiz records, more Roman Catholics appear in the death book than Jews, so this raises the question, did the relatives of Roman Catholics also apply for death certificates?

Biederman spins the story as the figures only represent death certificates resulting from requests for death certificates, but I do not believe that, and I do believe that the figures represent the best estimates of the SRO based on the data that they had and that included the captured British, US, and Soviet camp documents. And I think the numbers included deaths inferred by the SRO given a prisoner who appears in the documents but who could not be found after the war.

Of course, the numbers are only as good as the data they are computed from, but we are not allowed to see that data, thanks to the holohoax establishment. My guess is that, given that the Germans were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.

Do you admire or loath the Nazis for killing ''only'' 300,000 Jews?

[timhau]

Wow, if the hoax version killed 300,000, the real Holocaust must have killed millions!

[Sledge]

It's taken 60 years, but the "holohoax" (I now need a shower after using that term) theorists are accepting that the Nazis killed hundreds of thousands of Jews. Two things come to mind:
1) How long before they all accept that it was millions?

2) What exactly are they arguing about? If the Nazis were killing Jews, I can't understand why the apologists are trying to quibble over the numbers. Is there a magic number where mass extermination becomes unacceptable? "Look, I agree that killing millions of Jews would have been wrong, but it was only 300,000."

[carlitos]

This word appears to be made up of whole cloth by neo-Nazis from the Greek:

holo = whole
hoax = deception (more or less)

As mentioned above, if the deception alone killed 300,000 Jews, just think what the Final Solution might have accomplished.

[Comsat Angel]

Looking at the report from the Zundel trial .....

<snip>
Here's how I read it ......
<snip>


There's your major malfunction, right there.

However, please keep posting! Every time Saggy posts, a Rabbi is beatified.

[Horatius]

It's taken 60 years, but the "holohoax" (I now need a shower after using that term) theorists are accepting that the Nazis killed hundreds of thousands of Jews. Two things come to mind:
1) How long before they all accept that it was millions?




Well, if they learn to do some math, it could be quite soon! Consider:

Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had either partial or no documentation.


So, they have complete data for less than 10% of the camps. How much more data does the "partial or no documentation" give them? If it were zero, then we could expect the 300,000 to be about 10% of the real total, or a bit more than 3 million. It's likely more than zero, though. If they had less than 33% of the total available information, which seems a reasonable top end based on what we've seen so far, that puts them in the million-plus range.

So, what are the chances that Saggy will claim that math is a part of the plot?

[TSR]

So, what are the chances that Saggy will claim that math is a part of the plot?
>
Pythagoras and Euclid were both Jooos -- you do the ...

Ummmm, no, wait ....
>

[beachnut]

... were methodical and precise record keepers, the data is good and the numbers reasonably accurate.
NAZIs can't count, they are morons. neoNAZIs can't count they are even dumber than NAZI who were morons in the first place.

300,000 died in camps with your new Pulitzer Prize winning delusions; thus you proved the Holocaust happened and you can't count, NAZIs can't count, and neoNAZIs are morons.

You failed to make your point and spread lies, just like NAZIs, those morons who were going to run the world but were too stupid. I think my dad was killing NAZIs starting on June 6 1944 after he got out of the tree in France. Go ahead spread lies, you are free to act and think like a NAZI. Are you in Germany?

[defaultdotxbe]

NAZIs can't count, they are morons. neoNAZIs can't count they are even dumber than NAZI who were morons in the first place.

300,000 died in camps with your new Pulitzer Prize winning delusions; thus you proved the Holocaust happened and you can't count, NAZIs can't count, and neoNAZIs are morons.
actually saggy is correct, the nazis did keep impeccable of records of all their actions, including the holocaust (http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/about_its/index.html) which is one of the main reasons we know how many people were killed

[atecom]

perfect answer :)

Ive spent all day proof reading probably the worst written report I've ever seen from a group of final year university students. Those typos were bound to happen.

[16.5]

He pointed out, however, that these figures resulted from applications. If an entire family had died, there was no one to make an application for a death certificate. Secondly, the ITS had complete documentation for only two of the twenty-two concentration camps. For the remainder, it had either partial or no documentation. Therefore, if an application was made for a person who had allegedly died in one of these camps, the ITS would not have the records to justify a request to the Special Registry Office for a death certificate. (12-2647)

So we agree from 2 of the 22 camps, a total of at least 357,190 died (not counting of course those hose entire families were killed).

So extrapolating conservatively the numbers we get at least 3.5 million killed (not counting of course those whose entire families were killed).

And those are just from those that filled out applications.

And Saggy quoted this twice as proof that there was No holocaust?

[DC]

Ive spent all day proof reading probably the worst written report I've ever seen from a group of final year university students. Those typos were bound to happen.

ppfff spelling is overrated :D
i understood what you said and liked the answer :)

[Orphia Nay]

This is the most selective reading I've seen you do yet. Is this what the article looked like to you?

[forum software snipped nice formatting]

Honestly...

:D Nicely done! Spot on.

[Bluespaceoddity]

That is not the argument. No, that is 0, zero, Jews were killed in the camps for being Jews. That is they may have been executed for crimes in the camps, but no Jews were 'exterminated' for being Jews...
Menachem Taffel was. Gassed in a nazi camp (Natzweiler-Struthof) for the sole reason that he was Jewish. He wasn't the only one either. That argument was settled on page 1 of a - to date- 104 page thread.

"Het maakte uiteraard groot verschil, voor wat betreft de geestelijke verwerking van het lijden, of je vastzat omdat je iets tegen de bezetter had ondernomen dan wel om het enkele feit dat je jood was"
From Nacht und Nebel written by Dutch survivor Floris B. Bakels.

[dafydd]

Saggy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer,is he? The OP mentions 300,000 murdered in a holohoax that he says did not happen.

[Blender Head]

Let's say just for sake of argument that "only" 300,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. This would prove what, exactly?

Everyone's missing the forest for the trees; I believe it definitively proves that 9/11 was an inside (re: Joo) job, no doubt!

[abenja1]

Yay. Saggy the liar and hypocrite is back. Somebody get the straight jacket.